116: Hellboy with Lin Codega

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Welcome to Podcast Like It's the 2000s, the podcast where
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we're talking about the films of the aughts. Here from
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our perch in 2026, I'm one of your hosts, Felisco.
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I'm your other host, Emily St. James. And a fun
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fact about me is when I stalk my ex on
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her date with a new man, everybody thinks it's charming.
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Everybody's like, that's fun. Good for you. That's the thing
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that I like. It's a cute scene, though. Yeah, I
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genuinely really love this movie and have watched it several times.
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And this time through, I was like, hmm, that's kind
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of creepy. And I was like, why do I not
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feel that way? It's because Ron Perlman. I want to
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give him a hug.
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And a little boy.
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You want to give Ron Perlman a hug. It's also
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because the date in between those two characters....
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Yes.
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It's just like so, so charmingly sexless.
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Yes, completely. Completely.
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So platonic.
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With us today to continue our miniseries on Guillermo del
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Toro's 2000s films is author Lynn Kudega. She's here to
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talk Hellboy. They're here to talk Hellboy with us. And
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we appreciate it deeply. Truly. Lynn, when Emily suggested you,
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I was like, great. Love this. And I had no
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idea that for, I don't know, 10 minutes or so
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before we started recording, we would talk about tabletop games. And,
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you know, it'd be great. And we're going to get there, too,
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somehow with this episode. I have no doubt.
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We're going to talk bunnies and burrows, Phil.
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Bunnies and burrows? What's bunnies and burrows? Is that a game?
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It is basically what if Watership Down was a role-playing game.
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It's really sad.
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It's not as good as The Warrens. Which is like
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the update.
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It's not as good as the Warren. The Warren's far better.
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It's just smoothed down. But Bunnies and Bros came out
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of the Forge in the early 2000s. Just before the
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Forge got really big. And it applies story game aesthetics
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to also... Imagine that you and your whole family are
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on the run. And then... Imagine if every single way
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is shut out. It's like you are prevented from leaving
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in every single way. Also imagine grief in this context.
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Yeah.
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Sounds great. So Hellboy. Lynn, did you see Hellboy in theaters?
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I did.
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I was 14.
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Was it.
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Were you familiar with the source material before seeing it?
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No, I was 14.
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I don't know.
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Maybe you read comics. No, I still don't read comics.
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That's fair. Emily, you had read the comics prior to
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seeing this movie or after?
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I had not. I went through a phase in the
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late 2000s where I was illegally downloading a lot of comics.
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And then I would read them. my apologies to the.
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Authorities actually whatever don't apologize.
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Nobody in this administration cares they're like illegally download everything
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you want a hundred percent um but i was illegally
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downloading lots of comics and that's how i read a
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lot of hellboy stuff and came to i really love
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these comics i've probably haven't read them in like 15
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years so i don't have like a strong memory of
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them but at the time i was like devouring them
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sure i really love them i love the ideas as
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we all know, weird Christian esoterica is my favorite thing
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in the world. And this is like, I was explaining
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to a person yesterday that the left behind books are
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kind of my star Wars, you know, like I was
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like enmeshed in that whole idea, that whole vision of
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the world, that eschatological reality. Sure. Like, Nobody's making more
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left behind content for people.
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Really not.
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No.
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So like Hellboy is kind of like in that niche.
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It's like loosely based on like medieval Christian bullshit, but
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mostly it's just its own thing.
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I'm trying to see how many issues it ran for.
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Oh, it's, it's, there's been so much Hellboy stuff. Cause
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they have like, things about abe sapien they have things.
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About the well that makes sense yeah yeah like they.
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You know the original like this sort of adapts the
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first hellboy.
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Seed of destruction the first sort of yes it is
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interesting there's a lot of ephemera as you just mentioned
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emily there's just a lot of offshoots and because as
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this film shows there's lots of very colorful characters with
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which to spin off and do things with so that
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makes sense um I saw this film in 04, but
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I couldn't tell you if it was, I'm reasonably confident
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it was on DVD that I did not see this
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in theaters. I don't know if I've mentioned this in
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previous episodes, so forgive me if I haven't, but like
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I was, I was slow to come around to the
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Guillermo del Toro thing. Like I saw Blade II on
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DVD and I was like, that's really cool. But I
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can't say that like, He was enough of a draw
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to get my butt in the seats for this movie.
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I saw Pan's Labyrinth in theaters, but I don't think
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I saw Hellboy 2 in theaters. Maybe I did.
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Why did you not see Hellboy 2?
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I might have. I might have. I remember seeing it
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and being like, this is fucking cuckoo bananas, but I
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love it.
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It is pretty cuckoo bananas.
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It is pretty cuckoo bananas.
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Yeah no i saw i saw this i saw hellboy
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in theaters and tried to persuade libby to go with
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me and she was like i'm not seeing that and
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then i saw it and really loved it and tried
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to sell her on it by being like there's a
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scene where he fights a monster and he's holding a
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box of kittens it's true and it almost worked and
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then i think she realized that was not i think
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she realized that was not the entirety of the.
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Film and was like you know what the film yeah
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i don't know.
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I I mean, it is, but also there aren't enough kittens.
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So, Lynn, 14-year-old you sees this in theaters. Yeah, 13. 13, 14.
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Had you seen Blade II at this point? No, right?
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Had I seen Blade II by the time I was 13?
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I'm not sure, but I can guarantee you I did
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not know who the director was. Right.
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So, I guess my point is.
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Again, like 13 years old.
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Was this... I just thought it was kind of like,
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excuse me, an entry point for you for hell boy.
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Did you, did you, were you like, now I'm a
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hell boy, Stan?
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Uh, no, but I did love the film. It was
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one of those things where I, I still wasn't like
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totally sold on franchises. I had like got gotten onto
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like the Harry Potter fad. And then I was like, Oh,
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this isn't very fun anymore. Like, I don't think I
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read the like last couple of books, you know? Um,
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So I was never, I'm never really one to like
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totally dedicate myself to an IP, but like I watched
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it and I was like, I would watch that again.
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I liked it. Yeah. Sure. Sure.
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I thought it was great.
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I'm going to give a little bit of context for
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our listeners who maybe have not seen Howboy or read Howboy.
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It's based on the Dark Horse Comics character created by
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Mike Mignola. Sure. Written and directed by Guillermo del Toro.
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The film focuses on the debut comic, Howboy City Destruction.
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The film, a charismatic demon turned investigator named Howboy played
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by Ron Perlman. works with the Secretive Bureau of Paranormal
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Research and Defense to suppress paranormal threats when a resurrected
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sorcerer seeks to make Howboy fulfill his destiny. That sorcerer,
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of course, is none other than Rasputin, fulfill his destiny
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by triggering the apocalypse. Howboy opened on April 2nd, 2004
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against Walking Tall, Scooby-Doo Monsters Unleashed, Home on the Range,
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The Passion of the Christ, and The Prince and Me. Ah.
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Yeah, reading about how many theaters were like, well, we
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can't show The Passion of the Christ and Hellboy in
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the same multi-plex.
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I love it so much.
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That's incredible.
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Just like, what if Hellboy kills Jesus? He can't purple
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Rose of Cairo out of this movie.
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It's great.
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If he could, I would have a husband. But.
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It is funny, too, that Hellboy's title was changed in
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some international markets because you can't have Hell or Satan
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in your title.
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Oh, right.
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They called him Hello Boy.
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No, they didn't. They called it like... like weird species
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or species unleashed or something like that.
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There were some theaters or some countries where they called
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it Hello Boy. But yeah, I'm going to look up
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some international titles.
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It's tremendous. Yeah, please. This movie would get a 72 score,
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a Metacritic from critics, a 7.0 from audiences and a 3.4
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average on Letterboxd. Roger Ebert gave the film three and
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a half stars and said, Hellboy is one of those
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rare movies that not only based on a comic book,
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but also feels like a comic book is vibrating with
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energy and you can sense the zeal and joy in
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its making. Of course, it's constructed on nonstop special effects,
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bizarre makeup, and a preposterous storyline, but it carries that
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baggage lightly. Unlike some CGI movies that lumber from one
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set piece to another, this one skips lightheartedly through the action.
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I think that's a fair assessment. I will say, though,
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and this was kind of the thing, and I don't
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want to hold this against the movie too much, but
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this was the thing that bumped me a little bit
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about this movie, was the script. It felt very kind
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of generically comic book-y to me in terms of just
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sort of like the moves. I think that it's all
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executed expertly, and I have a really fun time with it.
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And it comes out in 04 before we were really
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obviously inundated with comic book bullshit like we are now.
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So I'm trying not to hold it too much against
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this movie because this movie was in the early days
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of this bullshit. So I guess like, you know what
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I'm saying? Like, but it's a little bit, there's a
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little bit of a lack of conflict or obstacles. Like
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everything's kind of resolved relatively easily, which... is a bit
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of a bummer to me, but again, like nitpicking. Cause
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I had a great time with it, but.
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Most countries called this the hero, the hero from hell,
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which like, doesn't seem like it's avoiding.
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It doesn't really fix it.
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Uh, but, uh, in Malaysia, it was called, um, super sapiens. Uh, yeah, that's,
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that's a good title.
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I like super sapiens.
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Oh, it's a terrible title.
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No, it's awful. It's awful.
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It's a terrible title. Imagine trying to convince 13-year-old me
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to go see Super Sapiens. Absurd.
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This is the thing. Hellboy's a great title.
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I was the target audience for this film. A 13-year-old weirdo.
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That's who you want in butts in seas for Hellboy.
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I mean, to be clear, that is Guillermo's bread and butter.
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You know, weirdos.
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13-year-old weirdos for Hellboy, specifically.
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I would argue 13 years old.
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Russia just went all in and called it hellboy hero
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from hell which i think is already.
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Really doubling down yeah it's really uh it's really going for.
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Yeah i i think were they worried we'd forget yeah.
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I mean there's a line in this movie just to
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to underline your point um lynn if there's trouble all
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us freaks have is each other um It's really very
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much a let your freak flag fly movie of just
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like weirdos unite type sort of mantra, which to be
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fair is Guillermo's thing. Yeah. And God bless him for it.
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I mean, I think that, and we've discussed this a
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little bit in previous episodes, Emily, but when it comes
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to the style over substance weirdo filmmakers, quote unquote, I
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think he's got more juice and more substance and has
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more to say, or is, or is able to sort
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of make them feel a little bit more substantial than,
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than a Tim Burton, for instance, who, you know, has
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flailed for quite some time now. Yeah.
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It's like you read about Guillermo del Toro wanted to
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make a movie of these comics for just ages and ages.
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And like part of every career decision he made until
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he made this movie was how do I get to
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make hell boy? And you're like, oh, yeah, okay.
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All right.
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The second you see.
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It makes so much sense.
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The second you.
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Just look at Hellboy, you're like, oh, okay.
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Of course. All right. Of course. I guess I don't.
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I find it very weird to, like, think of this
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as generically comic book-y. Not just in, like, the designs, obviously,
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are not, are very.
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No, no, no. I don't mean it that way.
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But, like, the storytelling of it is about, like, I
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guess you could argue that there's been like some Superman
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movies that lean into is he, can he bring the apocalypse,
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the long promised, but like, even that's pretty rare. You know, this,
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this is a, this is a movie about someone whose
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destiny is to end the world. Who's like, I don't
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think I'm going to do that, which I think is
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sort of unique, not in superhero storytelling. It's, it's all
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over comics and things like that, but we haven't had
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a lot of that in the movies. So I don't
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mean to, it is about rejecting a destiny, you know, Sure.
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To be clear, I don't think you're wrong, Emily. I
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agree with you that this movie is pretty bonkers in
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terms of what it's doing, right? Like, Rasputin has come
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back and he wants to bring on the apocalypse and
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we have a curmudgeon hero who has a stone for
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a hand. Like, I'm not sitting here saying that on
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its face this movie is generic. I don't think it
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is at all. In fact, I think that's what Guillermo
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loves about it. I think that at its nuts and
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bolts when it comes to like in its guts of
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yada yada things and having a team of people that
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are supernaturally imbued and, and just sort of, especially in
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the third act, I found it just like very easy
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on itself in terms of getting to a conclusion. And
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that's sort of what I mean. It's, it's not, it's
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not certainly not in its visuals, certainly not in its,
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in its vibes. I think it's more just in its moves.
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Sure, I could see that.
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That's all I mean.
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It is definitely... This reminds me of this era of
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superhero cinema when comic book movies would hold your hand
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a lot.
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That's what I mean.
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We know this is weird. It was before they'd figured
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out that the way to ruin all of culture was
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to have Robert Downey Jr. be like, I'm Iron Man now.
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Isn't that crazy?
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And people would be like, yay. And again, I, I mean,
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I love the MCU for a long time.
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And then, um, yeah, now I, well, Deadpool knows he's
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in a movie, Emily. Like that's, that's, I mean, you know.
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By, by the time this comes out, the Avengers end
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game revisited will have been.
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Out long enough that I can score.
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I cannot believe that it ends the, that, that scene
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that of, of Steve Rogers and Peggy, what's her name?
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Carter.
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Dancing as old people now ends with loki coming in
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and saying you have to help me like the end
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of fucking back to the future it's crazy it's crazy i'm.
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It's great that's that's the real ending.
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That's the change that to be the ending now.
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They've retconned what was a good ending why that resolves
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10 years of cinema and now they're just like jk
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You must come back with me. It's your kids, Marty.
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Something's got to be done about your kids.
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Damn, Chris Evans got wifed up. He's like, you know what?
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He's like, I got bills to pay.
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I do need that Marvel money for my third house.
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Yeah, it's crazy. It's, I mean, I, yeah, I know
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what you're saying, Emily, that we've sort of, there was
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a time, and we will explore this time, on this
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mini series of like pre iron man and even iron man,
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if we're being honest, like the first iron man was
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very fun and, and game changing in so many ways. And,
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and we talked dark night. It's it, it does feel
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like in the two thousands, they were still figuring it
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out a little bit. And that was more fun.
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They saw, they saw the Raimi Spider-Man.
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Yeah.
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And we're like, this can work. But, like, you have to...
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And I honestly am a little nostalgic for this period
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when it was like, we're going to be hyper-sincere and
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we're going to hold the audience's hand through that. And, like, sometimes,
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you know, now that I've been enmeshed in fucking superhero
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movies for the full fucking half my life or whatever, like,
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it feels... it feels very rudimentary. And I remember at
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the time being like, just, just don't worry about holding
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my hand so much. But I do think that like,
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to some extent the audience had to be like, it's,
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it's like we're going through a video game movies right
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now where the fans get mad. Cause it's not like
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direct adaptation, but I go and see resident evil and
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I'm like, thank you. I've never played one of these games.
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00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:09.039
I'm so happy to be told what's happening, you know?
339
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Yep.
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And it's just when you start adapting these massively nerdy things.
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Like when Lynn and I write our Stone Top movie.
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Yeah, it's going to be great. I think that we
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haven't actually talked about Men Begins yet, Emily. We will
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at some point. That feels like, obviously, a fulcrum point where...
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um that movie's successful not like insane numbers but successful
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and shows that audiences are open to something more grounded
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and something a little bit more intellectual um it's there
348
00:18:42.849 --> 00:18:46.150
are you know we haven't talked watchman yet uh which
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00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.190
we will at some point i'm sure um but it
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we haven't talked hulk like there are some movies where
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like the studios are are flailing a little bit of
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just being like i love hulk to be clear but
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like hulk is a movie you kind of watch and
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you're just like they really haven't cracked it yet they
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really don't know what they're doing.
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00:19:05.910 --> 00:19:10.700
Yet what if we did a miniseries that was sofia
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coppola and zach snyder what if we just did that.
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I'm listen i'm here for it what is is that
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00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:22.549
like edgelord edgelord and girls it's it's i'm just it's.
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00:19:23.869 --> 00:19:25.809
The taste you've left in my mouth it's like i've
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just brushed my teeth and i've like bitten into an
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orange it's.
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Like what if we tart what if we this famous
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00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.200
thing that people say about our current era which is
365
00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.420
that everything is gender what if we just made that
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our podcast for a while.
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00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.180
I mean i'm here for it i mean we talked
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about doing an edgelord series i believe you you were
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you i mean that was.
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00:19:46.069 --> 00:19:49.589
I love edgelords as we know i'm married to hellboy.
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00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:51.940
Um you're married to hellboy i mean a zach snyder
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a zach snyder aronofsky miniseries yeah i.
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Just think i think we need to pair him with
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either the other option is nancy myers although we've already
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covered the holiday so i.
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Feel like that's a little yeah it's unfortunate a little
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bit i oh.
378
00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:10.579
My gosh guys what women want you guys are No,
379
00:20:10.630 --> 00:20:12.380
I think that you guys are really missing out on
380
00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.960
like the Nora Ephron of this time.
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00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:21.019
She's it's just Julie and Julia. And what else does
382
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:21.450
she have in the 2000s?
383
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.640
Because like Bewitched and I think Lucky Numbers is Lucky Numbers.
384
00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:28.500
Jesus Christ. How could I forget about those? I like Bewitched.
385
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.750
I ride for Bewitched. Sure. But Lucky Numbers, that's.
386
00:20:32.730 --> 00:20:34.690
I think the thing about Nora Ephron.
387
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We're here defending Hellboy and you draw the line at
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Lucky Numbers.
389
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Damn. Sexist. I think the thing about Nora Ephron is
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I prefer her as a filmmaker to Nancy Meyers, but
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00:20:48.269 --> 00:20:51.559
Nancy Meyers is definitely making movies that are about gender
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in a way that Nora Ephron is a little bit
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00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:54.500
less interested in.
394
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:55.839
I agree with that.
395
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.140
But Sofia Coppola... I, like, prefer to both of them,
396
00:20:59.259 --> 00:21:01.170
and it's definitely making a movie about what if you
397
00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:03.910
were a doomed rich girl, like, every time.
398
00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:07.390
We could just do a Coppola's. We could just do, uh...
399
00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:12.339
What was Frantzopoulos? Frantz was up to some interesting stuff. Twixt,
400
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:13.359
for instance?
401
00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:16.019
Right, we'll call it a fistful of Coppola's.
402
00:21:16.460 --> 00:21:18.619
And then we'd also do Roman Coppola's CQ.
403
00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:22.720
Yeah. And because we said fistful, we'd also do all
404
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:24.480
the Eastwoods, and people would be like, what the fuck
405
00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:24.849
is happening?
406
00:21:24.869 --> 00:21:28.450
What the fuck is going on? Yeah, the thing about
407
00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:32.690
this movie that I think really works is kind of
408
00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:37.349
the Men in Black, Ghostbuster-y lightness that, truth be told,
409
00:21:37.369 --> 00:21:40.769
the Hellboys are really the only time that Guillermo is
410
00:21:40.950 --> 00:21:48.319
this kind of goofy, funny, silly light. Do you have
411
00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:49.000
other options?
412
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.500
Pacific Rim is right there.
413
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:53.579
What are you talking about?
414
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.940
I guess Pacific Rim is right there. I guess Pacific Rim...
415
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.900
yeah i've only seen pacific rim once i liked it
416
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.210
i'm not i'm not trying i'm not i'm not coming
417
00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:06.990
for pacific rim just to be clear with i think
418
00:22:07.089 --> 00:22:10.470
i think pacific rim is a fun movie um it's
419
00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:13.089
probably i guess you're right i guess i can't really fight.
420
00:22:12.930 --> 00:22:15.579
That i think i mean i think i think pacific
421
00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:22.000
rim is absolutely his most popcorn-y film by a long
422
00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:26.269
degree Yeah. But to me, it's always felt a little insubstantial.
423
00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:29.490
I think it's I mean, Mimic is bad, but I
424
00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:32.819
think Pacific Rim outside of Mimic is my least favorite
425
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.519
of his, which I know is not a like interesting,
426
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:41.920
extremely well held opinion. But it is like Hellboy and
427
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:46.819
Hellboy to feel to me like they are. grappling with
428
00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:50.519
a thing that he is very emotionally attached to about
429
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.819
like outsiders and monsters and weirdos and fighting monsters with
430
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.349
kittens in your hand like things that he really cares
431
00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:00.630
about and pacific rim i think he he absolutely cares
432
00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:03.130
about it but in the manner of like I play
433
00:23:03.170 --> 00:23:05.509
with my daughter all the time. She has all these little, like,
434
00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:10.589
action figures from different universes, and we have a bluey-themed dollhouse.
435
00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:13.359
And so it's just like, oh, Spider-Man has come to
436
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.539
visit the healers. And now, like, that's what Pacific Rim
437
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:18.759
feels like, is Guillermo del Toro playing just with a
438
00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:20.200
box of action figures.
439
00:23:20.259 --> 00:23:23.609
Yeah, I mean, it's robots versus Godzillas. Like, it's, I mean,
440
00:23:23.650 --> 00:23:25.960
it's pretty, you look like you have thoughts on it.
441
00:23:26.549 --> 00:23:28.430
I have so many thoughts. This is not the topic
442
00:23:28.450 --> 00:23:30.150
of the podcast. Okay.
443
00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:31.450
I'm so excited.
444
00:23:31.630 --> 00:23:33.509
Now I'm excited. Yeah. Let's hear it.
445
00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:36.829
I love Pacific Rim kind of in the same vein
446
00:23:36.869 --> 00:23:40.349
of like what we were talking about with like Warren, like, um, uh,
447
00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:45.410
rabbits and Warrens, um, or the Warren, right. It's this
448
00:23:45.490 --> 00:23:49.180
idea that like, imagine that like monsters have unionized and
449
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.059
they're coming after you. Now imagine the only way to
450
00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:56.589
fight them is through the power of love and and
451
00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.710
now and then you know you these two people that
452
00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:02.910
are like deeply in love they're obviously brothers but have
453
00:24:02.950 --> 00:24:04.730
this like really strong bond and then one of them
454
00:24:04.779 --> 00:24:07.640
dies that he's like imagine grief in this context.
455
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.420
Yeah yeah yeah okay you're talking about it i think
456
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.539
part of why i struggle with that movie is that
457
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:15.880
i did manage to make get libby to see it
458
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.660
and she thought it was some bullshit she really hated
459
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.359
it and i realized it was because she I realized
460
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.740
it was because she was picturing having to be in
461
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:26.519
like a shared mental space with me.
462
00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:31.269
Yeah. She didn't want to be in a robot with you.
463
00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:35.950
I mean, it's really goofy, but I do love that film.
464
00:24:35.990 --> 00:24:37.630
I think it has a lot of really great moments
465
00:24:37.809 --> 00:24:40.980
and very funny and very light, but also dealing with
466
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.819
the same themes that you can sort of track through.
467
00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:47.400
all of Guillermo del Toro's work, which is really interesting
468
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.940
because even though in Pacific Rim, the monsters are very
469
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.859
clearly like the bad guys, they're also very humanized. They're like,
470
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.609
we are doing this for a specific purpose. We have
471
00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.069
a thought process here. This is not because we're like
472
00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:01.710
mindless monsters. It's because like our world is dying and
473
00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:04.589
we need to leave. So it's a really interesting way
474
00:25:04.630 --> 00:25:08.470
of like a rejection of symbiosis and a rejection. And
475
00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:11.710
that again is, falls into how these like two like
476
00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:15.009
drift compatible people are like rejecting their own symbiosis and
477
00:25:15.029 --> 00:25:17.849
learning to, or embracing their symbiosis.
478
00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:20.529
Anyway. Can I just say that I love how, how
479
00:25:20.549 --> 00:25:24.750
you just threw away the drift compatible as though that's
480
00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:25.650
just a totally normal.
481
00:25:27.589 --> 00:25:30.630
Whatever people on this podcast right now, who, which two
482
00:25:30.690 --> 00:25:33.910
are most drift compatible. That's an important question.
483
00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:38.230
That's a question. I've wanted to rewatch a Pacific rim.
484
00:25:39.190 --> 00:25:40.829
I keep waiting for it to pop up on a
485
00:25:40.849 --> 00:25:43.549
streaming service that I don't have to pay for it, essentially. Like,
486
00:25:44.089 --> 00:25:47.170
it's just a movie that I've thought about rewatching and
487
00:25:47.210 --> 00:25:50.759
will rewatch at some point. Another thing that I wanted
488
00:25:50.779 --> 00:25:52.980
to talk about with this movie, just very, very briefly,
489
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:59.519
or maybe not, the steampunkiness of this movie. Yeah. Yeah.
490
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:03.940
It's like so techno magic. It is so Arcanist. I
491
00:26:04.289 --> 00:26:08.309
love it. so goofy and like inspired a lot of
492
00:26:08.369 --> 00:26:11.200
people for like 10 years to dress in top hats
493
00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:16.859
with touch gears to buttons and i'm just like you
494
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:21.019
know what you know you deserve that one million percent
495
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:25.029
on you the trench coats and like the the fake
496
00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:26.410
leather piping.
497
00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:30.630
The the the the i don't know what you would
498
00:26:30.910 --> 00:26:34.309
the villain or that the henchman to russ putin who
499
00:26:34.450 --> 00:26:41.720
is wearing this sort of steel suit yeah a a
500
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:44.420
antiquated steampunky gimp.
501
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.400
Suit yeah the steampunk gimp we all know.
502
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:52.539
Who you're talking about it's it's great it's great it's
503
00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:55.410
it's really and he has to like wind himself up
504
00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:58.470
basically he has to like wind his own heart kind
505
00:26:58.569 --> 00:27:01.869
of He has like blades for hands.
506
00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:04.890
It's great.
507
00:27:04.910 --> 00:27:04.990
Yeah.
508
00:27:05.230 --> 00:27:07.230
That is BDSM.
509
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:11.099
Yeah.
510
00:27:11.170 --> 00:27:13.890
That is someone's fetish. And I don't know who's. And
511
00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:19.079
I'm just like. Is this you buddy? I don't know.
512
00:27:19.500 --> 00:27:25.480
I love that steampunk. As a whole. Like a subgenre.
513
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.740
The thing that has happened. Is that the steampunk aesthetic.
514
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.559
has has continued to exist but the sub-genre which is
515
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.329
what if we invented modern technology in the british empire
516
00:27:38.349 --> 00:27:42.730
of the 1800s it's um um uh the bruce sterling
517
00:27:42.869 --> 00:27:47.069
william gibson novel the difference um engine okay uh which
518
00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:49.269
is a wonderful book it's from 1990 but it is
519
00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:54.009
very much like a book about like how technological change
520
00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:58.920
like changes society how it like often leaves the underclass
521
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.940
behind all of these like very important themes that alternate
522
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:06.299
history gets really well. And people were like, what if
523
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:07.460
men wore hats again?
524
00:28:08.529 --> 00:28:10.509
What if men wore top hats and monocles?
525
00:28:12.690 --> 00:28:14.950
The drip is the most important part of history. Like
526
00:28:14.970 --> 00:28:15.589
we all know that.
527
00:28:16.309 --> 00:28:18.910
I mean, we are also going to talk about another
528
00:28:18.990 --> 00:28:21.630
steampunk movie in the coming weeks. Emily is when we
529
00:28:21.650 --> 00:28:24.150
talk about the golden compass, which is also steampunk.
530
00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:28.190
In its own way i feel like yes i guess
531
00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:30.809
i guess it is i it feels like that was
532
00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:33.670
an aesthetic that was applied to a text that was
533
00:28:33.730 --> 00:28:35.380
not necessary but we'll talk about it.
534
00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:39.119
We'll talk about that but i i think it is
535
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.099
i think i think that kind of gets to the
536
00:28:42.140 --> 00:28:46.599
steampunk thing though right like wild wild west didn't have
537
00:28:46.700 --> 00:28:49.750
steampunk elements in the television show either am i.
538
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.160
Right, right, right, right. I, yeah, no, I get it.
539
00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:54.039
I get it. I mean, we, we like, it is
540
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.119
a thing that looks cool that when you actually try
541
00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:00.400
to tell a story that is about how a world
542
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:01.920
like that would come to exist.
543
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.880
You know, extraordinary gentlemen, for instance.
544
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.599
Yeah. It's usually an alternate history, which is great, which
545
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:12.200
is fine, which is fun. But yeah, it's, it's, um,
546
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.359
it is a thing where like, if you try to
547
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.329
adapt the difference engine as like, it would almost have
548
00:29:17.349 --> 00:29:20.269
to be an HBO miniseries. Like, A, I think that's
549
00:29:20.309 --> 00:29:23.849
a noble goal, but B, people would be like, the
550
00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.150
steampunk of it all would cut against the books.
551
00:29:26.269 --> 00:29:26.490
Yes.
552
00:29:26.769 --> 00:29:29.930
Because we're so used to it being a thing for
553
00:29:30.009 --> 00:29:33.930
men in their 40s. I love men in their 40s. Phil,
554
00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:34.400
I love you.
555
00:29:34.690 --> 00:29:43.140
But i think that steampunk is it breaks people's brains
556
00:29:43.220 --> 00:29:47.880
when you try to actually explain it i think that
557
00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:50.779
i mean didn't the nevers also have steampunk involved in
558
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:54.259
it i never wish the nevers well i'm just saying
559
00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:58.160
i'm again i'm not i'm not like saying Joss Whedon
560
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.059
is great. I'm saying that The Nevers existed and it
561
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:02.819
had steampunk in it, is all I'm saying.
562
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:05.180
It did, and I think you can no longer watch it.
563
00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:08.200
But if you told me Joss Whedon made a steampunk thing,
564
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.440
I would not be surprised by that. Sounds right.
565
00:30:12.099 --> 00:30:14.839
It's just this, I think, and Lynn, it seems like
566
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:20.019
with your excitement about bringing up steampunk, that it has
567
00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:25.089
fervent fans. Like, there are people that love it. And
568
00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:26.289
yet no one's fully cracked it.
569
00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:28.750
Yeah, there's a lot about that genre that I love.
570
00:30:28.769 --> 00:30:32.390
One of the things that I love about steampunk sort
571
00:30:32.410 --> 00:30:34.940
of relates to what you said about technology leaving behind
572
00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:40.799
disenfranchised in our contemporary real world. And steampunk sort of
573
00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:45.269
says you can seize the means of technology for yourself
574
00:30:45.329 --> 00:30:48.089
and you can just make it. It can be whatever
575
00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:48.470
you want.
576
00:30:48.529 --> 00:30:49.259
You can find it.
577
00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:53.390
You can build it. And a lot of steampunk stories
578
00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:57.569
kind of revolve around creation of or the discovery of
579
00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:02.130
a device of some sort that is powerful that allows
580
00:31:02.210 --> 00:31:06.900
people who have been absent of power to reclaim that
581
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:11.400
power so there is something really interesting about steampunk that
582
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:16.130
while it does ascribe to hierarchies it also uses technology
583
00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:20.970
as a method to destroy those hierarchies which is really
584
00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:25.630
which is like really relational to hellboy where it allows Hellboy,
585
00:31:25.869 --> 00:31:30.279
the use of technology and artifacts, something from another world
586
00:31:30.339 --> 00:31:35.660
that nobody quite understands, allows him to disrupt the hierarchies
587
00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:38.319
of control that have sort of been oppressing him his
588
00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:38.779
whole life.
589
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.019
Yep, totally.
590
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.869
The thing I think about when I'm like, because that
591
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.769
is inherent to a lot of steampunk storytelling, I think
592
00:31:47.809 --> 00:31:51.170
a lot about this webcomic girl genius that I read
593
00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:53.539
for a while, but I don't think ultimately was very
594
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.079
good but had like cool aesthetics and steampunky stuff and
595
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.920
it was very much like i mean the premise was
596
00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:02.240
what if a girl was a genius but like it
597
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:05.859
it was like uh it was about that if you
598
00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:09.109
had the right kind of technology you could like upend
599
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.309
the world order and i do think that we are
600
00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:13.230
not in a place where we want to like hear
601
00:32:13.269 --> 00:32:18.069
that anymore just because yeah the the people who upended
602
00:32:18.109 --> 00:32:20.509
the world order because they got their hands on like
603
00:32:20.630 --> 00:32:25.859
life-changing technology have so far Have a pretty bad track record.
604
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:27.210
They haven't done a great job, but I do think
605
00:32:27.349 --> 00:32:27.970
I do think it.
606
00:32:27.990 --> 00:32:31.930
Is built out of that era aesthetically because of like
607
00:32:32.250 --> 00:32:35.859
the robber barons who are the closest like analog to
608
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:36.839
our current tech.
609
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:41.259
Overlords also it is hilarious to me to think of
610
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:44.720
elon dressing like a steampunk bro in the early 2000s.
611
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:46.380
You fucking know he has you.
612
00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.220
Know yeah as soon as as soon as you said
613
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.230
that i'm like oh yeah he absolutely had like a
614
00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:55.049
trench coat with gears for buttons what no.
615
00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:59.950
Question before he had his gender affirming surgeries uh i'm
616
00:33:00.009 --> 00:33:03.670
sure he definitely um definitely dressed.
617
00:33:03.430 --> 00:33:06.250
That way i i don't know dress that way again
618
00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:07.170
he should just.
619
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.440
He's dating Grimes He has three children with Grimes He's
620
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:14.680
basically going cyberpunk.
621
00:33:14.369 --> 00:33:19.789
Listen I will never like that man But I would
622
00:33:19.849 --> 00:33:21.349
dislike him Slightly.
623
00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:23.730
Less if he dressed steampunk All the time If he
624
00:33:23.769 --> 00:33:26.049
wore a top hat and a monocle and gears for
625
00:33:26.089 --> 00:33:27.759
buttons I'd be like alright.
626
00:33:28.059 --> 00:33:32.160
If he committed to the bit Yes Can I tell
627
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.359
you a story about the film The Greatest Showman No
628
00:33:35.849 --> 00:33:39.410
We're moving on. It's listen, listen, this is important.
629
00:33:39.630 --> 00:33:41.190
Okay. This is important. Okay.
630
00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:43.299
I have only seen that movie one time. I went
631
00:33:43.339 --> 00:33:46.480
and saw it at an award screening that 20th century
632
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.180
Fox put on, on the lot. That was like a
633
00:33:48.339 --> 00:33:51.900
sing along. And so it was like all these people.
634
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:57.259
And at the end of the movie, they play, I
635
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.930
think this is me or something over the closing credits,
636
00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:02.990
or one of the songs from the film plays over
637
00:34:03.029 --> 00:34:06.420
the closing credits and And I turned around and a
638
00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:10.530
group of like women in their forties and fifties were
639
00:34:10.590 --> 00:34:13.630
doing a choreographed dance to it. And standing at the
640
00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:17.570
center was a young man wearing a top hat and
641
00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:19.929
a monocle and holding a cane, which he just kept
642
00:34:19.989 --> 00:34:22.349
thrusting up and down in the air to in time
643
00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:26.170
with the music as these women danced around him. And
644
00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:28.590
that's what I think somebody should do with steampunk. They
645
00:34:28.610 --> 00:34:32.630
should just make a movie about that is just like, Yeah.
646
00:34:33.070 --> 00:34:33.670
I'm here for it.
647
00:34:34.130 --> 00:34:38.010
Make Hellboy 3 Guillermo and add that man to Hellboy 3.
648
00:34:38.010 --> 00:34:42.079
I don't think a Hellboy 3 is in Guillermo's future.
649
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.159
It's not going to happen, but if it does, he
650
00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:49.780
should take that note. That's my note for him.
651
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:57.869
I do wonder if Guillermo has moved past these types
652
00:34:57.949 --> 00:35:03.380
of movies, unfortunately. Whether or not he's he's now like
653
00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:07.730
serious filmmaker guy as opposed to having like playful.
654
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:10.369
Fun frankenstein could have used a little bit more hellboy
655
00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:12.090
great just just a little i.
656
00:35:12.050 --> 00:35:13.570
Think i could have used a lot more hellboy that's
657
00:35:13.590 --> 00:35:15.389
a good good thought.
658
00:35:15.710 --> 00:35:19.929
Or ape sapien oh what if ape sapien was friends
659
00:35:19.969 --> 00:35:24.090
with frankenstein's monster what if that happened that would be great.
660
00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:26.329
Can we also talk about how ape sapien walked so
661
00:35:26.369 --> 00:35:28.710
the fish man in shape of water could run oh
662
00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:33.219
yeah oh so he could fuck He swam so he
663
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:33.659
could fuck.
664
00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:38.789
Abe Sapien was pretty sexy, so I get it.
665
00:35:38.809 --> 00:35:41.409
Do we think Abe Sapien fucks?
666
00:35:42.429 --> 00:35:46.630
Oh, Abe Sapien absolutely fucks. I'm sorry, Philip. Were you
667
00:35:46.670 --> 00:35:49.849
just surprised that I said Abe Sapien was sexy?
668
00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:54.340
I wouldn't say that I was surprised. I agree, to
669
00:35:54.380 --> 00:35:55.219
be clear. I was a little.
670
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:56.159
I think it's because.
671
00:36:00.030 --> 00:36:03.699
It's a fish man voiced by David Hyde Pierce. So it.
672
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:07.320
Okay.
673
00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:09.320
What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?
674
00:36:10.179 --> 00:36:12.769
This is queer erasure. This is like.
675
00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:14.909
No, no, no. I don't mean to suggest that David
676
00:36:14.929 --> 00:36:17.150
Hyde Pierce isn't sexy.
677
00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:19.429
It sounds like that's what you're suggesting.
678
00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:23.159
It sounds like you think David Hyde Pierce would be
679
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.510
less sexy if he was a fish man, and that
680
00:36:25.610 --> 00:36:26.849
is offensive to me.
681
00:36:26.989 --> 00:36:30.050
Actually, you know what? I take that back. He is
682
00:36:30.130 --> 00:36:32.190
sexier as a fish man, for sure.
683
00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:36.530
You know, Niles. Niles, hot boy.
684
00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:39.469
No, let's come on the pod. Yeah, I.
685
00:36:40.809 --> 00:36:44.699
But it's also like Doug Jones. It's like Doug Jones
686
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.340
is hot. That is a conventionally attractive man.
687
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:56.309
His physical talents, right, of how he's able to move
688
00:36:56.349 --> 00:36:58.210
his body and how he's able to.
689
00:36:58.210 --> 00:36:59.250
Yeah, body language.
690
00:36:59.630 --> 00:37:01.610
Body language is phenomenal.
691
00:37:02.010 --> 00:37:02.969
Body language.
692
00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:05.460
We recorded these slightly out of order, so we did
693
00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:10.739
our Pan's Labyrinth episode last week, but his body language
694
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:14.239
with the faun is tremendous as well. There's kind of
695
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:15.760
no one that does what he does.
696
00:37:17.610 --> 00:37:18.610
Another fuckable monster.
697
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:23.760
The phone listen.
698
00:37:23.260 --> 00:37:26.219
I feel like you are really like showing.
699
00:37:25.940 --> 00:37:29.670
The limits i do i want to also you could
700
00:37:29.710 --> 00:37:31.849
call me phil i should change my thing philip is
701
00:37:31.869 --> 00:37:37.050
so formal i appreciate the the formality but i i yes.
702
00:37:38.369 --> 00:37:40.369
I think I said I would marry the faun.
703
00:37:40.389 --> 00:37:40.460
No.
704
00:37:40.670 --> 00:37:41.230
You said you.
705
00:37:41.170 --> 00:37:44.070
Would marry the faun, but does that... I.
706
00:37:44.050 --> 00:37:47.139
Mean, that implies some sexual activity.
707
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:51.059
You're not going to get an annulment to the faun.
708
00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:53.539
It feels like a bad call. You can even imagine
709
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.699
serving the faun from Pan's Labyrinth with divorce papers.
710
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.110
But would you want to be held by the faun?
711
00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:02.750
The faun is made of wood, it seems. He's very prickly,
712
00:38:02.829 --> 00:38:05.670
and it doesn't seem cozy.
713
00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:09.409
Listen, in a few months... wicker is going to be
714
00:38:09.550 --> 00:38:11.800
out you're right and then we will stop having these
715
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.360
silly questions about whether or not the font is fuckable
716
00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:17.639
like obviously.
717
00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:20.300
The like it is we are just in it's amazing
718
00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:23.769
to me how frequently it seems like every year we
719
00:38:23.809 --> 00:38:25.789
have to have a conversation that's like people who are
720
00:38:25.829 --> 00:38:30.309
attracted to men are attracted to this basket man people
721
00:38:30.329 --> 00:38:34.320
who are not attracted to men are like really and
722
00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:36.599
they're like so thrown by it, but it is.
723
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:42.260
Hold on. Hold on. I can, I, I understand the
724
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:45.019
attraction to all of these characters to be clear. Like I'm,
725
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:47.980
this is not me sitting here. I'm not yucking. Anyone's young.
726
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.500
I look at the wicker man and I'm like, I
727
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.619
see it. I get it. Not the wicker man, but
728
00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:57.750
the man in wicker. And I, I, I see it.
729
00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.880
I get it. I get the Abe Sapien.
730
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:02.019
I do.
731
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:04.739
The only reason I push back on the faun is
732
00:39:04.780 --> 00:39:11.840
because the faun is like diabolical. It's in ways that.
733
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:13.019
Okay.
734
00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:14.940
All right. Maybe that makes it harder.
735
00:39:15.460 --> 00:39:19.670
You don't fix him and also make him worse. Yeah.
736
00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:20.469
Don't worry about it.
737
00:39:22.590 --> 00:39:25.670
That is just being attracted to men. You know, you
738
00:39:25.690 --> 00:39:27.590
just got to deal with someone who's a little bit
739
00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:31.650
diabolical and be like, you know what? I can, I
740
00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:33.010
can do this. I can make this happen.
741
00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:34.280
That's fair. That's fair.
742
00:39:34.510 --> 00:39:35.199
I can make it work.
743
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.260
Unless you want a strong, caring husband. And that's why
744
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:38.860
you have Hellboy.
745
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.940
Abe Sapien is a different thing though. Cause Abe Sapien
746
00:39:42.980 --> 00:39:46.659
has this, like, he's very tender. He seems very sweet.
747
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:46.750
Yes.
748
00:39:47.210 --> 00:39:51.940
He's an intellectual um he's got all these attributes that
749
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.420
i understand.
750
00:39:53.539 --> 00:39:54.699
What are you doing right now.
751
00:39:58.420 --> 00:40:02.000
What is happening phil is like talking himself phil is
752
00:40:02.019 --> 00:40:05.320
like discovering like the one percent of himself that's bisexual
753
00:40:05.429 --> 00:40:06.949
and it's apesapien.
754
00:40:06.909 --> 00:40:08.570
It's very funny i'm just like.
755
00:40:08.590 --> 00:40:11.969
In real time what's going on We need to.
756
00:40:11.849 --> 00:40:13.929
Put, like, a hear-me-out cake in front of, like, Just
757
00:40:14.030 --> 00:40:16.980
Phil and see, like, how it changes over every single
758
00:40:17.019 --> 00:40:19.320
episode because Ape Sapien's going on there.
759
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.900
You know Ape Sapien is lovely.
760
00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:25.219
It's crazy. It's crazy to me because, like, you're putting
761
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.539
Ape Sapien on a hear-me-out cake. I am putting, like,
762
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.559
the very specific hole that Cronin in, like, tears his
763
00:40:30.699 --> 00:40:32.110
heart out of. Like, I'm like, that.
764
00:40:32.349 --> 00:40:33.030
Correct.
765
00:40:35.130 --> 00:40:36.789
I interviewed Doug Jones at the A.V.
766
00:40:36.829 --> 00:40:37.110
Club.
767
00:40:38.250 --> 00:40:41.480
I did a random rolls with him. which was so fun.
768
00:40:42.389 --> 00:40:44.369
I had like a half hour at Comic-Con and I
769
00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:46.590
was having a blast. And then he revealed he played
770
00:40:46.650 --> 00:40:50.369
Mac tonight in the old McDonald's commercials. And that, that
771
00:40:50.389 --> 00:40:52.889
like derailed me for like five minutes. Cause I was like,
772
00:40:53.090 --> 00:40:55.579
let's talk about when you had a giant moon head, please.
773
00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:58.619
And I think very little of it survived the edit
774
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.679
because it was just like me, like fanning out over
775
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:02.940
Mac tonight.
776
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:08.420
Mac tonight is Mr. Melancholy from I saw the TV club. Like,
777
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:10.639
that is just, it's terrifying.
778
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:14.469
Listen, except he likes hamburgers, and I don't think Mr.
779
00:41:14.489 --> 00:41:16.469
Melancholy's ever had a hamburger, so.
780
00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:22.449
No, he just drinks that blue goo stuff, it seems. Yeah.
781
00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:23.289
Yeah.
782
00:41:23.789 --> 00:41:31.159
Anyway, I love Abe Sapien, and I'm okay with it. Yeah,
783
00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:34.039
I think that I also love John Hurt in this movie.
784
00:41:35.179 --> 00:41:39.280
John Hurt, who is never bad. might be in bad movies,
785
00:41:39.340 --> 00:41:41.400
but is always good. This is not a bad movie
786
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.659
to be clear. The movie I'm ultimately thinking about is
787
00:41:43.699 --> 00:41:45.840
a movie that we're going to be covering, uh, early
788
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:48.960
next year, Emily, um, Indiana Jones and the kingdom of
789
00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:52.579
the crystal skull, um, where, where John Hurt is just
790
00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:58.280
doing his best, doing his, doing his best. Um, but yeah, I,
791
00:41:58.449 --> 00:42:03.769
I do feel like he's perfect casting in this, like so,
792
00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:08.340
you know, fatherly and lovely. I mean, Guillermo, there's a
793
00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:11.800
quote about the film's central theme that Guillermo gave, said,
794
00:42:11.860 --> 00:42:13.900
the movie becomes a story of two fathers with a
795
00:42:13.940 --> 00:42:16.960
single son. Hellboy has one father in Broome and another
796
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:19.860
father in Rasputin. It's a very graphic way of representing
797
00:42:19.900 --> 00:42:26.420
Hellboy's conflict. Yeah, I mean, it is. You can see that.
798
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:29.539
You can see these two fathers, the devil and the angel,
799
00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:36.090
if you will. But John Hurt brings so much like
800
00:42:36.250 --> 00:42:40.889
emotion and love. And it's, it's a really lovely performance. Yeah.
801
00:42:40.909 --> 00:42:43.530
The thing I think I responded to in this movie
802
00:42:43.849 --> 00:42:46.349
that I think I, I lack in a lot of
803
00:42:46.409 --> 00:42:51.199
other superhero cinema is the ensemble aspect. This is very
804
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:53.019
X-Men related.
805
00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:53.519
Very much.
806
00:42:53.739 --> 00:42:53.880
Yeah.
807
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:57.860
And I think like prior to this, probably when I'm
808
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.019
like in my top five, let's see, this came out
809
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:05.670
before Spider-Man two. So prior to this, my favorite, but
810
00:43:05.690 --> 00:43:07.949
a couple months before. So when I was, like, writing
811
00:43:08.010 --> 00:43:13.400
about it for my college newspaper, I think X2 at
812
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.320
that time was my favorite superhero movie. And that is, like,
813
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:20.159
I have always liked when a superhero story is actually
814
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:25.579
an ensemble, like a WB ensemble TV show. Like, my
815
00:43:25.699 --> 00:43:29.239
ideal form of superhero storytelling is evidently Smallville, a show
816
00:43:29.300 --> 00:43:30.199
I never watched.
817
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:30.820
But.
818
00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:37.909
But yeah, it is. It's yeah. It's, it's like I
819
00:43:38.030 --> 00:43:40.179
think that's what I respond to in this is that
820
00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:42.920
all of these characters are in this like kind of,
821
00:43:42.940 --> 00:43:48.119
I mean, it's a very RPG party thing where it's like,
822
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.619
we have different strengths. Here's the guy who's the, just
823
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:53.679
the normal guy, but his strength is he's got a
824
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:57.269
lot of heart or whatever. It's yeah. I think it's,
825
00:43:57.929 --> 00:44:00.469
I think that's what I really love about this movie.
826
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:06.460
It's very reminiscent of just when you get together a
827
00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:09.900
heist film or a mob movie, right? You have a heavy,
828
00:44:09.980 --> 00:44:12.460
you have a fixer, you have an engineer, you have
829
00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:16.869
a driver. So there is something really comforting about having
830
00:44:16.989 --> 00:44:20.730
people fill these certain roles for the action that is
831
00:44:20.769 --> 00:44:23.250
going to happen in the film. Because if you have
832
00:44:23.309 --> 00:44:25.929
a driver in a heist film, you know there's going
833
00:44:25.969 --> 00:44:29.570
to be a car chase. If you have... If you have.
834
00:44:30.929 --> 00:44:35.650
A pyromaniac or a pyrotechnic lady you know that like
835
00:44:35.789 --> 00:44:38.130
something is going to get set on fire that shouldn't
836
00:44:38.269 --> 00:44:40.429
like it's just it's really nice to have these sort
837
00:44:40.489 --> 00:44:45.980
of very very clear signposts for how the movie is
838
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:49.780
going to fit together within the team that is created.
839
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.719
And it's also like it's a great metaphor for family
840
00:44:54.739 --> 00:44:56.059
and all that sort of stuff too right like you
841
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.179
get to just play with the whole like found family
842
00:44:58.420 --> 00:45:03.260
stuff which is always great Yeah, I mean, Del Toro
843
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:04.880
tried to make this movie for a really long time.
844
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.219
So it was not a surprise that the second that
845
00:45:08.260 --> 00:45:10.789
he had even the smallest of blank checks off of
846
00:45:11.130 --> 00:45:13.550
Blade II, he jumped at the opportunity to make this.
847
00:45:13.570 --> 00:45:18.469
There were various iterations of it, animated versions. There was
848
00:45:18.570 --> 00:45:22.849
a Harryhausen version of it. He invited Harryhausen to work
849
00:45:22.869 --> 00:45:26.250
with his animators. Harryhausen declined, said that he thought modern
850
00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:30.869
films were too violent. God bless him. Love that. You know,
851
00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:36.389
there was, del Toro researched the occult and Nazi philosophies
852
00:45:36.449 --> 00:45:39.000
and used them as reference for the opening sequence. There's
853
00:45:39.019 --> 00:45:42.659
an early version of the script where a gyroscope portal
854
00:45:42.699 --> 00:45:45.019
was described as being made out of rails that formed
855
00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:49.239
into pentagrams, hexagrams, and inverted stars to illustrate the film's
856
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:56.070
magic and occult elements. Sure. You know, it's, I think
857
00:45:56.110 --> 00:45:59.469
that there's a lot of like, labyrinthian kind of components
858
00:45:59.510 --> 00:46:01.929
to this too which I wonder if I can only
859
00:46:01.989 --> 00:46:05.409
assume that Pan's Labyrinth which is you know the next
860
00:46:05.429 --> 00:46:08.320
film that he does but he talks about labyrinths being
861
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:10.559
a motif for the film to represent Hellboy's conflict of
862
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:13.900
choosing the right path he feels that labyrinths represent the
863
00:46:13.940 --> 00:46:18.760
film's themes and a labyrinth it is said is a
864
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:21.050
place not is not a place to be lost but
865
00:46:21.090 --> 00:46:24.329
a place to find yourself which is very much what
866
00:46:24.789 --> 00:46:26.230
Pan's Labyrinth obviously taps into.
867
00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:31.059
That's really interesting because there's only one way out of
868
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:35.190
a labyrinth, right? Like he's not actually making any choice,
869
00:46:35.409 --> 00:46:38.469
real choices. It's just, you know, he's trying to figure
870
00:46:38.510 --> 00:46:41.050
out how to get to where he's going. And I
871
00:46:41.090 --> 00:46:43.650
think that that's something really interesting is the fact that
872
00:46:43.670 --> 00:46:46.030
like there's no two ways out of a labyrinth.
873
00:46:46.070 --> 00:46:47.010
There's one way.
874
00:46:47.030 --> 00:46:51.570
So I think it's to have, to have labyrinth as a,
875
00:46:52.900 --> 00:46:55.280
as a theme for hell boys sort of, sort of
876
00:46:55.340 --> 00:46:59.039
like really confirms the hero's story of the whole thing
877
00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:01.960
where it's like, he was never really in danger of falling.
878
00:47:02.300 --> 00:47:02.559
Right.
879
00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:06.599
Uh, he was always going to do the right thing,
880
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.139
end up at the right place, be the right hero
881
00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:14.400
for the time. And I think it's interesting that labyrinths, um,
882
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.489
are places where you are afraid that you'll never get
883
00:47:18.619 --> 00:47:19.019
out of it.
884
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:19.340
Right.
885
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:21.530
You'll never find your way out. You'll never find your
886
00:47:21.570 --> 00:47:24.269
way to like the, the place where, you know, you're
887
00:47:24.289 --> 00:47:27.489
going to end up. So having that as sort of
888
00:47:27.510 --> 00:47:32.570
an extension of anxiety and personal turmoil, especially as he's
889
00:47:32.829 --> 00:47:35.969
got to deal with his friendships and his relationships is
890
00:47:36.150 --> 00:47:40.449
an interesting way to think of his struggle.
891
00:47:40.809 --> 00:47:41.110
Right.
892
00:47:41.650 --> 00:47:45.539
Because again, there's only one way out of a labyrinth.
893
00:47:45.619 --> 00:47:49.219
Yeah, no, for sure. It, it, it is interesting that like,
894
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:56.349
I mean, obviously, uh, Guillermo loves the visual metaphor of
895
00:47:56.409 --> 00:48:01.849
a labyrinth, right? Like, and that's, and, and, um, to
896
00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:05.820
your point though, there is only one way out of it.
897
00:48:05.869 --> 00:48:10.320
It's not, it's not a maze of, I mean, it's
898
00:48:10.340 --> 00:48:13.719
amazing for the character. I don't know. I appreciate the
899
00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:18.940
fact that he's making it literal. And yet at the
900
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.820
same time, it just, it really works incredibly well for
901
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:26.530
the characters. I do also feel like this movie, just
902
00:48:26.630 --> 00:48:34.690
wondering about its development process. Basically, he always wanted Ron
903
00:48:34.730 --> 00:48:37.809
Perlman as the lead of this movie. And as you
904
00:48:37.829 --> 00:48:40.300
can imagine, studios are like- I get it. I get
905
00:48:40.340 --> 00:48:44.280
it too, but also shooters are like, Ron Perlman? Like,
906
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.960
it is, they got a lot of pushback on that.
907
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:52.639
It should be said that when Guillermo met the creator
908
00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:55.980
of the comic, Mike, and decided to reveal to each
909
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:58.199
other their lead choice for the role, they both said
910
00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:01.039
Ron Perlman at the same time, which I think is hilarious.
911
00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:02.820
That's so cute.
912
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:08.360
Universal wanted Vin Diesel. Okay. Also, the role was offered
913
00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:09.139
to Jeremy Renner.
914
00:49:11.690 --> 00:49:14.099
Oh, yeah. In 2004?
915
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:16.539
Yeah. I know.
916
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:18.869
That's way earlier. That one's baffling.
917
00:49:19.309 --> 00:49:19.469
Yeah.
918
00:49:19.730 --> 00:49:20.269
I agree. Yeah.
919
00:49:20.309 --> 00:49:23.130
That's like Ron Perlman was a bigger star than Jeremy.
920
00:49:23.250 --> 00:49:27.300
I agree. I just wonder if they were just like
921
00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:31.139
hot hell boy, hotter hell boy. I don't know. I
922
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:33.059
think Ron Perlman is hot, but I'm just Ron Perlman.
923
00:49:33.219 --> 00:49:35.980
Gorgeous man. But yeah, that is the thing you run
924
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.260
into is like, who are you going to cast? Who's
925
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:40.019
going to be caked under that much makeup?
926
00:49:40.059 --> 00:49:40.179
Yeah.
927
00:49:40.539 --> 00:49:44.019
Who's going to like the person I think might have
928
00:49:44.059 --> 00:49:47.360
worked is Lawrence Fishburne. I think you could have made
929
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:51.989
that work, but that's like trying to pick someone who
930
00:49:52.070 --> 00:49:55.829
in 2004 reasonably might've gotten this movie made. But yeah,
931
00:49:55.849 --> 00:49:58.489
like Vin Diesel, I think is just like, the thing
932
00:49:58.530 --> 00:50:01.010
you want is you never want the scene where he's
933
00:50:01.070 --> 00:50:04.780
magically appears without the makeup and, and Perlman's going to
934
00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:07.539
do that. I don't know that any bigger star than
935
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.230
Perlman would have been like, well, you, I have to
936
00:50:10.269 --> 00:50:13.110
do a scene where I kiss Selma Blair without the
937
00:50:13.150 --> 00:50:15.110
makeup on and just, you know, whatever.
938
00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:16.989
I also think, like, this was a movie that was
939
00:50:17.090 --> 00:50:20.800
going to cost a fair amount of money just on
940
00:50:20.860 --> 00:50:26.099
effects alone, right? Like, this is a movie that made $ 99. 8 million,
941
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.260
so close to $ 100 million, almost broke $ 100 million.
942
00:50:28.820 --> 00:50:32.219
I remember them keeping this in theaters to, like, try
943
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:33.960
to do it. It just never happened.
944
00:50:34.329 --> 00:50:37.380
And it just couldn't get there. It's a $ 66 million budget,
945
00:50:37.420 --> 00:50:39.880
which is not nothing, but like, it's not, you know,
946
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.199
breaking the bank by any means. But I do think
947
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.539
that it was clear that the production budget was going
948
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:50.400
to be pretty high. So like none of these, you know, there,
949
00:50:50.500 --> 00:50:52.550
there aren't any names in this movie for, for not
950
00:50:52.590 --> 00:50:54.690
to be disparaging of this cast, but like, there aren't
951
00:50:54.730 --> 00:50:58.010
any names that are getting people into the theater. I
952
00:50:58.090 --> 00:51:01.050
also don't think that this was a comic that was particularly,
953
00:51:01.349 --> 00:51:06.730
you know, huge. So yeah, you kind of understand on
954
00:51:06.789 --> 00:51:08.869
some level them being like, we put Vin Diesel in
955
00:51:08.909 --> 00:51:10.550
this thing. Like, at least that's a guy that people
956
00:51:10.650 --> 00:51:14.949
know for what it's worth. I'm not saying they should
957
00:51:14.969 --> 00:51:16.679
have done it. I'm just saying, I'm putting my studio
958
00:51:16.699 --> 00:51:18.760
hat on this thing. Like, I get why they were trying.
959
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:21.739
It's like, I understand why they cast Phil, David Harbour.
960
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.559
I almost called him Phil Harbour. David Harbour in the, like,
961
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:27.800
2019 reboot that apparently, I've never seen this.
962
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:29.190
I've never seen it. Quite dire.
963
00:51:29.269 --> 00:51:31.530
But, you know, I get it.
964
00:51:31.530 --> 00:51:32.230
There's a reboot?
965
00:51:32.650 --> 00:51:33.030
Yes.
966
00:51:33.050 --> 00:51:33.119
Yes.
967
00:51:33.980 --> 00:51:35.500
Did they make two of them, Emily? Why?
968
00:51:35.539 --> 00:51:40.300
This movie's perfect. Yeah, they've made two additional Hellboy reboots,
969
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:42.300
neither of which has been successful. The second of which
970
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.869
was direct-to-video, at least in the United States.
971
00:51:44.889 --> 00:51:45.769
Yeah, I'm looking to see.
972
00:51:46.010 --> 00:51:49.750
It was Ketchup Entertainment, everybody's favorite company.
973
00:51:49.789 --> 00:51:52.929
Yeah, Hellboy the Crooked Man?
974
00:51:53.630 --> 00:51:57.039
Yeah, why not? Why not have a Crooked Man in Hellboy?
975
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:02.929
It is like, I do think like the That this
976
00:52:03.010 --> 00:52:06.730
is an era when studios are not yet trusting the
977
00:52:06.789 --> 00:52:11.599
idea that the character is the star. And they very
978
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:16.679
quickly would get past that. But the thing about Hellboy
979
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:21.280
is nobody's kind of going to care unless it's Jim Carrey.
980
00:52:21.650 --> 00:52:23.690
You know, what if it was Jim Carrey?
981
00:52:23.750 --> 00:52:24.969
What if it was Jim Carrey?
982
00:52:25.409 --> 00:52:27.860
I would watch that. Yeah, I think that it's interesting
983
00:52:27.889 --> 00:52:30.699
because this is sort of the early days of people
984
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:37.199
of like Hollywood in particular, recognizing fandom as a legitimate
985
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.820
method of getting butts in seats.
986
00:52:41.590 --> 00:52:41.789
Right.
987
00:52:41.889 --> 00:52:44.769
I think that this is one of the first one
988
00:52:44.809 --> 00:52:49.380
of the first eras in the early 90s. in the
989
00:52:49.420 --> 00:52:52.860
early 1990s, in the late 1990s, they had sort of
990
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:57.679
begun to tap fandom for certain things. And then in
991
00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:01.840
the early 2000s, this sort of like really started exploding.
992
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:06.739
And the big point where people realize that like, oh,
993
00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:10.639
fandom is like a marketable, so you can market to
994
00:53:10.699 --> 00:53:19.449
fandom itself, was when the Dark Knight ARG happened. do
995
00:53:19.469 --> 00:53:21.550
you remember that with the joke with joke with when
996
00:53:21.570 --> 00:53:25.800
it was like the joker film in particular um and
997
00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:28.500
they they thought this arg was going to take you
998
00:53:28.539 --> 00:53:31.719
know the fandom like again this sort of nebulous fandom
999
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:34.360
that they didn't really understand um was going to take
1000
00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.679
them for like four months to figure out and the
1001
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:40.769
fandom figured it out in two days and it was
1002
00:53:40.929 --> 00:53:43.369
yeah like very genuinely just like they were just like
1003
00:53:43.429 --> 00:53:45.510
no we can totally do this they they organized on
1004
00:53:45.570 --> 00:53:49.099
forums they showed up in person everyone was everyone like
1005
00:53:49.139 --> 00:53:51.199
it was you had flip phones so they still had
1006
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:53.300
cameras and they were able to share all of that
1007
00:53:54.219 --> 00:53:59.519
um and this this movie and sort of the ensuing
1008
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:06.199
superhero films they they quickly realized the power of fandom
1009
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:10.139
and fandom activation to get people invested and they really
1010
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.219
generated a like or not generated but they really uh
1011
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:18.639
created a foundation for fandom generated content to be used
1012
00:54:18.820 --> 00:54:22.869
as marketing in this time which was a really really
1013
00:54:24.369 --> 00:54:28.329
fascinating move to like putting power power maybe like too
1014
00:54:28.369 --> 00:54:30.630
much power into the audience's hands mm-hmm.
1015
00:54:31.500 --> 00:54:32.840
Yeah i think we need i think we need to
1016
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:34.599
cut the audience down to size a little bit now
1017
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:36.940
i think we need to be like uh no uh
1018
00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:40.039
that that is like that summer of 2008 is such
1019
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:43.940
a demarcation point because it's iron man and dark knight
1020
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:49.210
blow the fuck up and are both like just even
1021
00:54:49.269 --> 00:54:51.090
the year before is snakes on a plane it may
1022
00:54:51.110 --> 00:54:53.090
have been two years before snakes on a plane where
1023
00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:55.210
everyone's like well this is an internet thing maybe it'll
1024
00:54:55.230 --> 00:54:58.219
be a huge success and it was not And then
1025
00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:00.289
it does feel like Iron Man and Dark Knight are
1026
00:55:00.369 --> 00:55:05.090
finally this kind of the rise of this. You can
1027
00:55:05.150 --> 00:55:07.530
market to the ain't it cool news audience because now
1028
00:55:07.570 --> 00:55:10.710
they're everybody. I guess you could argue Lord of the Rings,
1029
00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:12.590
but that felt like a prestige play in a way
1030
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:17.039
that like Iron Man especially did not. So, you know,
1031
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:18.880
it's it's and also was based on a book that
1032
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:20.840
was like one of the best selling books in history.
1033
00:55:20.860 --> 00:55:23.139
And the basis of culture.
1034
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:23.559
Yeah.
1035
00:55:24.219 --> 00:55:25.619
Lord of the Rings at the time when it came
1036
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:29.420
out was like so enmeshed in culture right like at
1037
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:31.199
the time the Lord of the Rings had come out
1038
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:38.070
uh you know um what is it what's uh the
1039
00:55:39.409 --> 00:55:41.610
Game of Thrones was already like on the had been
1040
00:55:41.630 --> 00:55:43.750
on the best like five Game of Thrones books were
1041
00:55:43.769 --> 00:55:46.889
already on the bestseller list by the time like uh
1042
00:55:47.650 --> 00:55:49.829
Lord of the Rings was in theaters so it's just
1043
00:55:49.869 --> 00:55:51.909
one of those things where it's just like that so
1044
00:55:52.010 --> 00:55:56.420
prestigious and also like so enmeshed in culture and the
1045
00:55:56.460 --> 00:56:02.880
way that people thought about storytelling. Kind of incomparable, in
1046
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:03.400
my opinion.
1047
00:56:03.820 --> 00:56:05.460
I totally agree, and I would say that Game of
1048
00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:08.639
Thrones actually breaks television in the way that those movies
1049
00:56:08.739 --> 00:56:13.420
broke movies, right? In the sense of, oh, okay, everyone
1050
00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:17.500
likes The Dragon Show. It's not just for the nerds.
1051
00:56:17.739 --> 00:56:25.440
It's actually for everybody. And it's... I mean, all the
1052
00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:27.539
wrong lessons were taken from all of this stuff. And
1053
00:56:27.579 --> 00:56:31.519
it does feel, unfortunately, especially with television, seeing sort of
1054
00:56:31.579 --> 00:56:39.679
this trying to make TV into movies and vice versa
1055
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:42.480
has not benefited either formats particularly.
1056
00:56:43.099 --> 00:56:47.340
Yeah, I wrote a thing at Vox that was like,
1057
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:51.179
everything is TV now. And it feels like TV and
1058
00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:53.079
movies have grown together in a way that I don't
1059
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:57.539
know has... necessarily benefited either medium it feel it feels
1060
00:56:57.579 --> 00:57:00.719
like there's a there's a divorce happening now i agree
1061
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.920
um so we'll see what the most evident film but
1062
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:07.840
we'll see what happens going forward maybe it's hellboy three it's.
1063
00:57:07.340 --> 00:57:11.440
What i'm saying um david high pierce refused to take
1064
00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:15.280
credit for uh the role he said it was out
1065
00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:17.489
of respect for doug jones he felt it was his
1066
00:57:17.570 --> 00:57:23.860
role and um yeah so i i I appreciate that.
1067
00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:25.360
I think it's a sweet thing that he did that.
1068
00:57:27.019 --> 00:57:30.840
It should also surprise no one that the... I don't
1069
00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:34.719
even know how you say it. The Sam-Miao creatures in this.
1070
00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:36.079
Sam-Miao.
1071
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:44.159
Sam-Miao. My apologies. Are inspired by H.P. Lovecraft. What? Guillermo
1072
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:45.969
del Toro? Inspired by H.P. Lovecraft?
1073
00:57:45.989 --> 00:57:48.050
I don't know how you say it.
1074
00:57:52.050 --> 00:57:54.730
It's a good thing you don't say it. The better
1075
00:57:54.750 --> 00:57:56.099
for everyone you mispronounce it.
1076
00:57:56.409 --> 00:57:58.139
Great.
1077
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.559
Cool. We should have the monstrosity on as a guest.
1078
00:58:02.500 --> 00:58:02.820
Okay.
1079
00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:09.239
What if we had Hulu on to discuss the country bears?
1080
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:10.980
I think that would be great.
1081
00:58:11.099 --> 00:58:16.090
I'd love to hear their thoughts. Guillermo opted to do
1082
00:58:16.110 --> 00:58:16.429
this movie.
1083
00:58:16.469 --> 00:58:17.389
Lynn has doubts.
1084
00:58:19.429 --> 00:58:19.610
Just.
1085
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:23.860
I don't think we should be fucking with that shit, man.
1086
00:58:23.940 --> 00:58:26.679
Guillermo did this film and in the process turned down
1087
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:30.039
doing Alien vs. Predator and Harry Potter and the Prisoner
1088
00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:30.699
of Azkaban.
1089
00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:37.360
I think he would have been fun for one of
1090
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:41.460
those two. I think I would have been interested in
1091
00:58:41.500 --> 00:58:47.039
seeing his take on Potter. I just threw salt over
1092
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:50.699
my shoulder. so everyone knows to ward off ward off
1093
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:54.940
evil um but yeah yeah i would have.
1094
00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:58.199
Wanted to see him take on aliens versus predators i just.
1095
00:58:58.099 --> 00:59:00.909
Feel like he would have they would have they would.
1096
00:59:00.809 --> 00:59:05.639
Have fucked this is true that's the thing right We
1097
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.159
would have caught them mid-coitus, and I feel robbed.
1098
00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:12.929
I do feel like he would have gotten boxed in
1099
00:59:12.969 --> 00:59:17.369
a little bit with two different franchises he had to satiate.
1100
00:59:18.389 --> 00:59:20.449
And the thing we're forgetting about Azkaban is that it
1101
00:59:20.550 --> 00:59:23.179
introduces the Dementors, which I know he would have had
1102
00:59:23.199 --> 00:59:26.880
a blast with. So that's, I think, where my... It's
1103
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:29.889
the one Potter book I think holds up. I really
1104
00:59:29.929 --> 00:59:30.269
like that.
1105
00:59:30.849 --> 00:59:36.130
I like Cuaron's direction of that film, but I agree
1106
00:59:36.170 --> 00:59:37.670
with Emily that I would have liked to have seen
1107
00:59:37.710 --> 00:59:40.570
what Guillermo did with it. Can we all agree that
1108
00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:41.820
Baby Hellboy is really cute?
1109
00:59:43.059 --> 00:59:43.440
Yeah.
1110
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:46.340
I would adopt Baby Hellboy.
1111
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:47.159
Okay, good, good, good.
1112
00:59:47.460 --> 00:59:49.699
I think my kid needs a baby brother who's a demon.
1113
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:51.940
Yeah. Yeah.
1114
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:54.599
That would be so cute, though.
1115
00:59:54.619 --> 00:59:55.739
It'd be so cute.
1116
00:59:57.250 --> 01:00:01.750
I don't think I can adopt baby Hellboy, cute as
1117
01:00:01.789 --> 01:00:05.110
he is. I have enough trouble with my dog, so,
1118
01:00:05.550 --> 01:00:05.889
you know.
1119
01:00:06.289 --> 01:00:08.309
Are they still looking at you from the doorway?
1120
01:00:08.949 --> 01:00:14.030
No, my dog went outside, did some business, and now
1121
01:00:14.190 --> 01:00:18.130
she is sitting in front of my office door, just
1122
01:00:18.210 --> 01:00:18.610
in case.
1123
01:00:19.210 --> 01:00:22.769
Cool, cool. I think it's a little weird that the
1124
01:00:22.809 --> 01:00:27.420
Hellboy comics exist in the world of the Hellboy movie. No,
1125
01:00:27.579 --> 01:00:28.320
I love it.
1126
01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:32.539
I think it's so cheesy and so fun.
1127
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:36.360
It's more just, it makes, whatever stuff like that happens,
1128
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:40.719
it makes my head hurt when I'm like, so what's reality?
1129
01:00:41.349 --> 01:00:46.690
I mean, it's like we have, you know, it's like
1130
01:00:47.489 --> 01:00:53.949
how you have fan properties surrounding, say, Taylor Swift or
1131
01:00:54.329 --> 01:00:57.769
Beyoncé or It's just like, it is a wink to that.
1132
01:00:57.829 --> 01:01:01.789
Like if there were superheroic figures in our world, we
1133
01:01:01.809 --> 01:01:05.889
would probably interpret them through superhero comics. It just, it
1134
01:01:06.130 --> 01:01:10.289
becomes iterative. Like there's, for instance, there's so many children's
1135
01:01:10.349 --> 01:01:14.670
books you can buy about like pop stars. Like I
1136
01:01:14.690 --> 01:01:17.309
could walk out and buy like six Olivia Rodrigo little
1137
01:01:17.349 --> 01:01:19.489
golden books right now. And they'd all like, some of
1138
01:01:19.530 --> 01:01:23.070
them would be like mythologizing her rise to fame. Some
1139
01:01:23.090 --> 01:01:25.469
would just be like about one of her songs. It
1140
01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:28.690
is like, you know, I do think that perhaps it's
1141
01:01:28.710 --> 01:01:32.860
just the comic book thing of it all. But I
1142
01:01:32.940 --> 01:01:35.920
love any time a story does that because it feels
1143
01:01:35.980 --> 01:01:40.320
to me like how reality adapts to celebrity in a
1144
01:01:40.340 --> 01:01:40.800
certain way.
1145
01:01:41.130 --> 01:01:41.389
I see.
1146
01:01:41.829 --> 01:01:44.170
That's fair. I would push it a little bit further
1147
01:01:44.230 --> 01:01:47.550
away from this like direct hero worship and more like,
1148
01:01:47.889 --> 01:01:50.010
you know, the Mothman statue in West Virginia.
1149
01:01:50.030 --> 01:01:50.110
Yeah.
1150
01:01:50.900 --> 01:01:52.820
It's like that, man. Like, we don't know if there's
1151
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:55.280
a Mothman. I mean, pretty sure there's not, but we
1152
01:01:55.300 --> 01:01:59.489
don't know, man. The Monongahela National Forest is a radio
1153
01:01:59.550 --> 01:02:02.010
dead zone. Nothing gets in or out of there. And like,
1154
01:02:02.130 --> 01:02:03.769
if there's a Mothman, I'm.
1155
01:02:03.690 --> 01:02:04.869
Not, I don't know.
1156
01:02:05.289 --> 01:02:07.369
But like the, the idea that there's like, you know,
1157
01:02:07.449 --> 01:02:09.750
now there's Mothman plushies and Mothman is a part of
1158
01:02:09.809 --> 01:02:13.210
the culture. And there's Mothman comic books. Like imagine the
1159
01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:16.650
real Mothman hold up in a nest with like Mothman memorabilia.
1160
01:02:18.289 --> 01:02:18.650
You know?
1161
01:02:18.670 --> 01:02:20.070
I love that for them.
1162
01:02:21.070 --> 01:02:23.090
But that's that's kind of the vibe, right, is that
1163
01:02:23.130 --> 01:02:25.510
there is this like or even the way that like
1164
01:02:25.590 --> 01:02:29.320
Slenderman or the back rooms have sort of like started
1165
01:02:29.420 --> 01:02:32.559
out as the sort of like cultural phenomenon that has
1166
01:02:32.619 --> 01:02:35.679
like gotten to whisper network and then become a part
1167
01:02:35.739 --> 01:02:38.440
of a different part of culture and then like culture
1168
01:02:38.519 --> 01:02:41.300
eating its tail like a giant Ouroboros of, you know,
1169
01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:43.639
clowns in the woods trying to kill you.
1170
01:02:43.659 --> 01:02:50.820
I remember how many stories there were about Batboy. explicitly
1171
01:02:50.889 --> 01:02:54.090
made up, but with the veneer of this is real.
1172
01:02:54.409 --> 01:02:57.809
When Batboy initially appeared, I always like Hellboy has always
1173
01:02:57.869 --> 01:03:01.269
felt to me like a riff on weekly world news
1174
01:03:02.110 --> 01:03:07.630
type tabloid monsters that are not real, but are presented
1175
01:03:07.690 --> 01:03:10.769
as being real. And then when one of them really
1176
01:03:10.809 --> 01:03:12.590
hits the culture takes it in a whole bunch of
1177
01:03:12.610 --> 01:03:13.429
different directions.
1178
01:03:13.780 --> 01:03:14.300
Sure.
1179
01:03:14.619 --> 01:03:16.579
I do. We think Hellboy has met Batboy.
1180
01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:19.900
Probably. Yeah. Probably.
1181
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:20.659
Yeah.
1182
01:03:20.929 --> 01:03:23.429
Um, this is a, here's the thing though.
1183
01:03:23.489 --> 01:03:27.050
I think hell boy would hate bad boys guts. I
1184
01:03:27.090 --> 01:03:29.289
think hell boy would meet bad boy and be like, man,
1185
01:03:29.329 --> 01:03:32.349
I would bully you in school. Like that's the energy here.
1186
01:03:32.409 --> 01:03:35.730
Bad boys. That sounds right. That sounds right. Yeah. Um,
1187
01:03:35.949 --> 01:03:37.969
a little thing, but it bummed me out that they
1188
01:03:37.989 --> 01:03:40.619
couldn't either couldn't or chose not to buy the rights
1189
01:03:40.699 --> 01:03:43.699
to Nick caves, red, right hand and had some shitty
1190
01:03:43.780 --> 01:03:48.400
cover of it. Um, I think that's a wasted opportunity.
1191
01:03:49.409 --> 01:03:53.010
I kind of feel like Nick Cave read their proposal
1192
01:03:53.050 --> 01:03:55.349
and was like, that's a little on the nose. I'm
1193
01:03:55.369 --> 01:03:56.449
not going to do this.
1194
01:03:56.590 --> 01:04:00.269
I'm not going to do this. Yeah, I mean, so
1195
01:04:00.289 --> 01:04:03.449
I want to talk Selma Blair for a second, not
1196
01:04:03.489 --> 01:04:05.110
her political views, to be clear.
1197
01:04:05.130 --> 01:04:06.829
She's just the most normal person.
1198
01:04:07.130 --> 01:04:11.289
She's super normal. We have nothing to worry about.
1199
01:04:11.489 --> 01:04:15.070
In 2004, Selma Blair seemed like she was fine.
1200
01:04:15.090 --> 01:04:15.869
She seemed fine.
1201
01:04:18.619 --> 01:04:23.559
I have not kept up with the Selma Blair drama.
1202
01:04:23.900 --> 01:04:28.139
You're better off for it. Yeah, she's... Very pro-Israel.
1203
01:04:28.489 --> 01:04:37.309
Yeah, she's appearing in extremely overtly pro-Israel films made by
1204
01:04:37.329 --> 01:04:38.730
the Israeli film industry now.
1205
01:04:38.789 --> 01:04:39.449
Correct.
1206
01:04:40.070 --> 01:04:47.010
Wow. So that's Selma Blair, her performance. uh, her choice,
1207
01:04:47.090 --> 01:04:47.469
I guess.
1208
01:04:47.909 --> 01:04:49.349
Um, it is, it is her choice.
1209
01:04:49.550 --> 01:04:51.050
She's allowed to do that.
1210
01:04:52.349 --> 01:04:55.769
But in 2004, yeah, she's just, she's really, um, we don't,
1211
01:04:55.789 --> 01:04:57.570
we don't need to go down this road, but I mean,
1212
01:04:57.590 --> 01:05:02.019
here's what I will say. I, I, I, um, it's
1213
01:05:02.059 --> 01:05:05.639
unfortunate that, that she, uh, struggles with multiple sclerosis. That
1214
01:05:05.699 --> 01:05:10.119
is a thing. Um, and you know, uh, she has
1215
01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:14.119
been helpful towards, I think organizations when it comes to that, uh,
1216
01:05:15.659 --> 01:05:19.119
disease and uh with that i tip my hat everything
1217
01:05:19.179 --> 01:05:21.559
else stays in the hat um.
1218
01:05:21.460 --> 01:05:24.860
And and she's quite good in hellboy she's good.
1219
01:05:24.739 --> 01:05:26.889
It's quite good and so we we talked a little
1220
01:05:26.909 --> 01:05:29.530
bit about her emily when we did storytelling a movie
1221
01:05:29.550 --> 01:05:31.550
that everybody has seen and everybody loves.
1222
01:05:32.170 --> 01:05:34.849
Uh yeah one of our most listened to.
1223
01:05:34.750 --> 01:05:40.010
Episodes two episodes um in the 2000s you know she's
1224
01:05:40.070 --> 01:05:43.150
in the sweetest thing uh she's in a guy thing
1225
01:05:43.210 --> 01:05:45.050
weirdly did two films that have thing in the title
1226
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:49.780
um the the sole effort of uh doug lyman as
1227
01:05:49.820 --> 01:05:50.800
a director.
1228
01:05:51.219 --> 01:05:55.929
Um uh a doug lyman doug lyman did other guys.
1229
01:05:56.780 --> 01:05:59.809
He directed that though didn't he no he didn't do
1230
01:05:59.849 --> 01:06:01.730
a guy thing he did what was the other what
1231
01:06:01.769 --> 01:06:04.929
was the movie he did he did a movie with
1232
01:06:05.389 --> 01:06:06.570
um god damn it this is.
1233
01:06:06.670 --> 01:06:09.389
I'm sorry guys i gotta maybe confusing him with someone
1234
01:06:09.429 --> 01:06:10.190
else because.
1235
01:06:10.010 --> 01:06:16.969
I'm thinking of um uh the entourage uh showrunner creator
1236
01:06:17.030 --> 01:06:18.960
what's his name why am i drawing a blank on
1237
01:06:18.980 --> 01:06:25.119
his name come on emily doug ellen doug ellen is
1238
01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:28.679
his name and doug ellen directed kissing a fool which
1239
01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:31.559
i obviously got mistaken for a guy thing and we've
1240
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:34.719
come full circle i hope you all enjoyed that journey
1241
01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:38.039
that we went on uh my apologies to everybody involved
1242
01:06:38.460 --> 01:06:42.579
uh she's good at a great time yeah um She's never, like,
1243
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:43.840
been the lead of anything.
1244
01:06:44.050 --> 01:06:47.050
I remember, like, she would be in things as just, like,
1245
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:51.610
the normal girl compared to, like, some blonde lady.
1246
01:06:52.190 --> 01:06:55.449
Or the, like, edgy girl next to a blonde lady.
1247
01:06:56.489 --> 01:07:01.510
As a blonde lady.
1248
01:07:01.530 --> 01:07:06.269
Well, because, like, that's basically, Legally Blonde is that, right? Like,
1249
01:07:06.489 --> 01:07:11.210
that's where she's doing that, where she plays Vivian Thelma Kensington.
1250
01:07:13.840 --> 01:07:17.239
um but yeah she's really good in this movie and
1251
01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:20.039
I'm a little surprised that Selma Blair didn't blow up
1252
01:07:20.099 --> 01:07:22.449
a little bit more not even off of this movie
1253
01:07:22.469 --> 01:07:24.449
but just kind of in general I feel like she's
1254
01:07:24.510 --> 01:07:29.250
got this sort of Aubrey Plaza-ish energy that I think
1255
01:07:29.570 --> 01:07:32.190
could have done more stuff with it and it just
1256
01:07:32.210 --> 01:07:34.489
kind of it felt like she did that but in
1257
01:07:34.510 --> 01:07:35.570
a bunch of.
1258
01:07:35.570 --> 01:07:40.130
Movies no one saw yeah looking over her her you
1259
01:07:40.170 --> 01:07:42.510
know list of movies i'm like she should have fired
1260
01:07:42.550 --> 01:07:48.809
her agent so fast like wow following allegedly following up
1261
01:07:49.329 --> 01:07:52.909
hellboy with a again i'm on wikipedia this is very
1262
01:07:52.929 --> 01:07:56.289
boring for a lot of people but following up hellboy
1263
01:07:56.309 --> 01:07:59.510
with like a sex comedy pretty quickly a.
1264
01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:03.380
John waters movie so we should we should you know
1265
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:05.800
give john waters his due i'm sure that she wanted
1266
01:08:05.820 --> 01:08:07.440
to be in a john waters movie it's just not
1267
01:08:07.460 --> 01:08:09.940
a particularly good one and unfortunately his last film and
1268
01:08:09.980 --> 01:08:13.280
then she's in in good company but it's a kind
1269
01:08:13.300 --> 01:08:15.519
of a small role which is the paul wetz um
1270
01:08:16.779 --> 01:08:17.220
i like.
1271
01:08:17.260 --> 01:08:20.550
Yeah i don't know you you do a sex comedy
1272
01:08:20.590 --> 01:08:23.090
when you're trying to like break into a role not
1273
01:08:23.109 --> 01:08:25.170
when you're trying to break out of a type.
1274
01:08:24.869 --> 01:08:29.569
I agree yeah it does feel like every time she
1275
01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:31.949
would like try a thing, she would run back to
1276
01:08:32.050 --> 01:08:34.329
kind of raunch calm. Cause she was like, I feel,
1277
01:08:34.350 --> 01:08:36.729
I don't know. I feel safest there or whatever. Um,
1278
01:08:36.850 --> 01:08:39.550
it is kind of wild that like within four years
1279
01:08:39.609 --> 01:08:43.029
of this, she's doing the famous flop TV show, um,
1280
01:08:43.109 --> 01:08:47.189
Kath and Kim, which like, right. Yeah. It's just like, yeah,
1281
01:08:47.229 --> 01:08:50.319
she never, she never took off, but she always felt
1282
01:08:50.340 --> 01:08:52.460
like she was about to for a long time there.
1283
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:57.699
Um, yeah, she, she plays Chris Jenner in OJ, the American, uh,
1284
01:08:57.859 --> 01:09:02.380
crime story. yeah she does stuff i don't know she
1285
01:09:02.579 --> 01:09:05.939
yeah listen there the simple player is a is a
1286
01:09:05.979 --> 01:09:10.859
complex uh she can she she contains multitudes um but
1287
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:13.520
she's good in this movie um she's got a she's
1288
01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:16.319
got a great vibe she's got great chemistry with ron
1289
01:09:16.359 --> 01:09:17.720
perlman She can.
1290
01:09:17.619 --> 01:09:20.979
Start on fire, which is a thing we all love.
1291
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:25.310
She's pyrokinetic, which is pretty rad. I'll say that the
1292
01:09:25.329 --> 01:09:30.350
one kind of significant miscasting in this movie, in my
1293
01:09:30.369 --> 01:09:37.130
humble opinion, Rupert Evans as, what's his face, John Myers.
1294
01:09:37.949 --> 01:09:38.939
The everyman.
1295
01:09:40.140 --> 01:09:43.319
He's so vanilla. There's nothing there. It's just he's not
1296
01:09:43.390 --> 01:09:43.869
doing anything for me.
1297
01:09:43.859 --> 01:09:45.250
I think that's the point, though.
1298
01:09:45.630 --> 01:09:49.670
Right? Sure. If you wanted wallpaper, you got it. And he,
1299
01:09:50.050 --> 01:09:50.310
you know.
1300
01:09:51.050 --> 01:09:55.689
I mean, I think he might be a little harsh
1301
01:09:55.770 --> 01:10:00.810
on this character. Okay. Because wallpaper, he might be. But
1302
01:10:00.850 --> 01:10:04.289
he's also going up against, you know, fucking Hellboy. Ron
1303
01:10:04.409 --> 01:10:08.449
Perlman as Hellboy. It's really hard to play across from
1304
01:10:08.470 --> 01:10:11.640
Ron Perlman as Hellboy. And then Abe Sapien as... And
1305
01:10:11.659 --> 01:10:15.840
then Selma Blair looking incredibly hot. And then also a
1306
01:10:15.899 --> 01:10:17.960
guy with a clockwork heart.
1307
01:10:18.340 --> 01:10:22.310
He's wallpaper, but... I love that you're like, playing in
1308
01:10:22.369 --> 01:10:26.010
scenes against Abe Sapien is really tough. He's like... Yeah.
1309
01:10:26.989 --> 01:10:28.350
It is.
1310
01:10:28.390 --> 01:10:32.119
He takes up a lot of space. He looks cool.
1311
01:10:32.220 --> 01:10:35.779
I think that's the thing, right? It's like, that character is.
1312
01:10:37.630 --> 01:10:40.390
Like literally an accountant who got like sucked into this
1313
01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:42.010
because of some sort of, I don't know.
1314
01:10:42.329 --> 01:10:46.550
Tax, whatever, whatever, whatever. If this actor, and I don't
1315
01:10:46.590 --> 01:10:49.489
mean to be like clowning on Rupert Evans, but like,
1316
01:10:50.100 --> 01:10:52.420
he's not a very nice boy. I'm sure he's lovely.
1317
01:10:52.939 --> 01:10:54.920
He's not in the sequel and he's, he's not in
1318
01:10:55.000 --> 01:10:58.619
anything ever again. Like it's, he's in stuff, but like
1319
01:10:58.659 --> 01:11:00.619
no one's ever seen these things. This is short films.
1320
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:02.979
It's like, he does feel like he's here because of
1321
01:11:03.020 --> 01:11:06.090
a note, a studio note. It feels like this is the, like,
1322
01:11:06.699 --> 01:11:10.170
the capitulation to, we are casting Ron Perlman. Like we're
1323
01:11:10.189 --> 01:11:12.029
going to have a normal guy and we're going to
1324
01:11:12.069 --> 01:11:14.329
cast like a guy who maybe could be a heartthrob.
1325
01:11:14.369 --> 01:11:16.170
And then Guillermo del Toro is just like, look at
1326
01:11:16.210 --> 01:11:20.750
this heartthrob. And it's, um, you do need a Xander
1327
01:11:20.810 --> 01:11:23.529
in a story like this. You do need a guy
1328
01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:24.880
who's just kind of there.
1329
01:11:24.899 --> 01:11:25.020
Yeah.
1330
01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:29.060
And like, I honestly, I, I love hell boy too,
1331
01:11:29.079 --> 01:11:30.840
as well. I think it suffers a little bit for
1332
01:11:30.979 --> 01:11:33.300
not having that guy. I think you just, I think
1333
01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:33.939
you kind.
1334
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:34.739
Of just need that guy.
1335
01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:35.819
Right. You need that guy.
1336
01:11:37.010 --> 01:11:39.710
I think the problem is this movie has three versions
1337
01:11:39.750 --> 01:11:43.609
of that guy. It's Rupert Evans, it's John Hurt, and
1338
01:11:43.640 --> 01:11:46.819
it's Jeffrey Tambor. And you kind of just need two
1339
01:11:47.420 --> 01:11:49.659
or even just one. You could get by with it
1340
01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:52.399
just being John Hurt except John Hurt dies.
1341
01:11:52.579 --> 01:11:56.960
I think it's also a little bit of... I really
1342
01:11:57.100 --> 01:12:02.029
wanted the love triangle to really pop. And it doesn't
1343
01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:07.949
because of him. And it's not to say that... another
1344
01:12:08.130 --> 01:12:13.270
actor necessarily would have injected the necessary elements to make
1345
01:12:13.350 --> 01:12:16.300
this love triangle really kind of come to life. But
1346
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:18.000
the thing that I kind of was thinking about a
1347
01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:22.840
little bit watching this was the love triangle in X-Men
1348
01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:28.989
between Wolverine, Jean Grey and Cyclops. And like Cyclops is just,
1349
01:12:29.310 --> 01:12:32.760
he's just cuckold. Like he's just, there's, there's not a,
1350
01:12:33.649 --> 01:12:34.489
And good.
1351
01:12:34.329 --> 01:12:37.310
For him, honestly. It's a valid pick.
1352
01:12:37.750 --> 01:12:40.600
He's where he wants to be. I don't know what's
1353
01:12:40.659 --> 01:12:41.460
the problem here.
1354
01:12:41.539 --> 01:12:44.619
I feel a little bit like whenever you have an
1355
01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:48.039
imbalanced love triangle where it's just so obvious that your
1356
01:12:48.140 --> 01:12:51.689
audience is invested in one side of it, it's just
1357
01:12:51.729 --> 01:12:53.170
a bummer. That's all.
1358
01:12:53.670 --> 01:12:56.069
I think part of the problem is we start the
1359
01:12:56.229 --> 01:13:00.050
love triangle in Medias Res. Hellboy has been in love
1360
01:13:00.090 --> 01:13:02.430
with Liz for a long time. She's unsure how she
1361
01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:07.579
feels about him. Whereas if this movie is Liz joins
1362
01:13:07.699 --> 01:13:12.520
the BPRD as does this normal boy and she sparks
1363
01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:14.619
with normal boy, but hell boys kind of in love
1364
01:13:14.659 --> 01:13:17.060
with her and she can tell she's kind of into him,
1365
01:13:17.100 --> 01:13:18.869
but she's not sure what that says about her. Cause
1366
01:13:18.909 --> 01:13:22.270
he's the literal harbinger of the apocalypse that gives you
1367
01:13:22.310 --> 01:13:26.689
like room to grow across future movies in a way that, yeah.
1368
01:13:27.050 --> 01:13:27.229
Yeah.
1369
01:13:27.250 --> 01:13:31.310
Cause like, it does feel like Myers is obviously an
1370
01:13:31.449 --> 01:13:35.720
audience surrogate. Right. Whereas if we're seeing and listen, I
1371
01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:37.960
understand I'm not wanting to do an origin story of
1372
01:13:38.039 --> 01:13:41.430
the team coming together. Like, I'm sure that's not fun.
1373
01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:46.250
And it's also like Liz is the character who can
1374
01:13:46.289 --> 01:13:50.170
appear human in a way that Hellboy and Abe cannot. Like,
1375
01:13:50.430 --> 01:13:53.029
you could take her out to a Cold Stone Creamery
1376
01:13:53.310 --> 01:13:56.520
and then, you know, have a nice time. Now she
1377
01:13:56.539 --> 01:13:58.100
would sell the ice cream on fire and that would
1378
01:13:58.119 --> 01:13:58.579
be a problem.
1379
01:13:59.079 --> 01:14:01.619
But but only if you hit her, apparently, which is
1380
01:14:01.640 --> 01:14:03.979
a weird thing. I don't love that she needed to
1381
01:14:04.020 --> 01:14:06.979
be hit to come to have her powers.
1382
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:08.600
Come to life. And why are you hitting her in
1383
01:14:08.649 --> 01:14:10.789
a cold stone creamery? That's my question for you.
1384
01:14:10.810 --> 01:14:15.590
Uh, I do want to say that Rupert Evans was
1385
01:14:15.710 --> 01:14:19.029
in 26 episodes of the man in the high castle playing, uh,
1386
01:14:19.109 --> 01:14:22.220
Frank Frick, which is a great name.
1387
01:14:22.229 --> 01:14:23.979
Oh yeah. He's good in that.
1388
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:27.340
And that was the show I didn't really like. I,
1389
01:14:27.579 --> 01:14:30.619
I would be curious to know who I, I do
1390
01:14:30.659 --> 01:14:34.520
like the idea that like, uh, john myers and liz
1391
01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:38.689
sherman coming coming into the team together whether that's like
1392
01:14:38.770 --> 01:14:41.689
after a break or you know reuniting after a long
1393
01:14:41.729 --> 01:14:44.250
time i think that would have solved the the some
1394
01:14:44.270 --> 01:14:48.439
of the tension yes the romantic tension um but i
1395
01:14:48.579 --> 01:14:51.359
also just like secretly like that liz is like in
1396
01:14:51.659 --> 01:14:56.560
in her heart of hearts a monster fucker and she
1397
01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:00.359
knows that like a regular a regular dude's never gonna
1398
01:15:00.380 --> 01:15:02.689
do it for her but it's nice to pretend which
1399
01:15:02.739 --> 01:15:04.939
i think is like that's the spin that i have
1400
01:15:05.149 --> 01:15:07.649
on it whereas it's nice to think that you aren't
1401
01:15:07.729 --> 01:15:08.409
attracted to.
1402
01:15:08.350 --> 01:15:12.390
Monsters sure i just i totally agree with you lynn
1403
01:15:12.550 --> 01:15:15.069
and i i really do appreciate that at a certain
1404
01:15:15.170 --> 01:15:17.250
point in gear most career he was like you know
1405
01:15:17.289 --> 01:15:20.670
what i just i gotta make subtext text and i
1406
01:15:20.729 --> 01:15:23.270
gotta have a mute lady fuck a fish man like
1407
01:15:23.449 --> 01:15:27.000
it's just it needs it needs to just happen God bless.
1408
01:15:27.140 --> 01:15:31.460
And he won Best Picture. Everyone was like, we've been
1409
01:15:31.520 --> 01:15:32.279
waiting for this.
1410
01:15:34.140 --> 01:15:34.659
Everyone.
1411
01:15:35.119 --> 01:15:40.060
Literally everyone. Another thing is I would be interested, who
1412
01:15:40.399 --> 01:15:46.210
would you have liked to see as John Myers? Here's
1413
01:15:46.229 --> 01:15:51.470
the thing that Emily and I have. 2004, every man. Hot,
1414
01:15:51.609 --> 01:15:55.029
but not too hot. Edgy, but not too edgy.
1415
01:15:55.500 --> 01:15:57.500
Well, here's the thing that Emily and I discovered, have
1416
01:15:57.520 --> 01:16:02.109
discovered pretty obviously in our 2000s journeys thus far, which
1417
01:16:02.170 --> 01:16:06.289
is that there weren't a lot of great boys or
1418
01:16:06.409 --> 01:16:10.609
young men in the ecosystem at this time.
1419
01:16:11.109 --> 01:16:13.270
The thing is, it would have been James Marston. And
1420
01:16:13.310 --> 01:16:17.250
James Marston just always played that guy to the degree
1421
01:16:17.310 --> 01:16:20.489
that he played that guy in X-Men. And like you're saying,
1422
01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:23.439
He was good, though. Yeah, I think he was very good.
1423
01:16:23.500 --> 01:16:27.060
I think in the comics, the Jean Grey Cyclops and
1424
01:16:27.119 --> 01:16:31.279
Wolverine love triangle, while weighted toward Jean and Wolverine, is
1425
01:16:31.350 --> 01:16:33.789
like more of a love triangle. Whereas in the film,
1426
01:16:33.829 --> 01:16:37.229
you're like, yeah, but he's James Marston. And I fucking
1427
01:16:37.329 --> 01:16:40.789
love James Marston. But yeah, he's always that guy, you know?
1428
01:16:41.310 --> 01:16:45.369
There is a version of this where it's like, and again,
1429
01:16:45.409 --> 01:16:47.380
these are names that are probably too big for the roles,
1430
01:16:47.449 --> 01:16:50.560
but like where it's an Orlando Bloom or a Josh Hartnett.
1431
01:16:51.109 --> 01:16:54.329
You know, they're the right age. They're just probably two
1432
01:16:54.390 --> 01:16:57.569
big names. But, like, again, those guys have, you know, charisma.
1433
01:16:58.270 --> 01:17:03.539
I have a pitch. 2004, Tom Hardy.
1434
01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:05.100
There you go.
1435
01:17:05.460 --> 01:17:05.699
Okay.
1436
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:07.140
That'd be good. I would have been there.
1437
01:17:07.279 --> 01:17:10.020
He hasn't broken out into any major roles. He did, like,
1438
01:17:10.260 --> 01:17:17.020
one indie thing. He's, like, been mostly on stage. This is, like, pure, like, slightly, like,
1439
01:17:17.060 --> 01:17:19.869
he's not quite as buff. He's pure fuckboy Tom Hardy.
1440
01:17:21.109 --> 01:17:23.329
Yeah, he's like right off of modeling.
1441
01:17:24.310 --> 01:17:26.890
Yeah, right off of stage, right off of modeling, just
1442
01:17:26.930 --> 01:17:29.920
about to get cast in his first big thing in 2005.
1443
01:17:29.920 --> 01:17:31.859
Sure.
1444
01:17:31.859 --> 01:17:32.619
2004, Tom Hardy.
1445
01:17:33.260 --> 01:17:36.979
Woodwatch. It ultimately comes down to.
1446
01:17:37.239 --> 01:17:43.649
I have a pitch. 2004, Kristen Bell. And it's explicitly
1447
01:17:43.699 --> 01:17:49.359
a bisexual love triangle. This is Veronica Mars era Kristen Bell. Yeah,
1448
01:17:49.390 --> 01:17:51.729
she reads a little young, but she's in her mid-twenties,
1449
01:17:51.890 --> 01:17:52.149
you know?
1450
01:17:52.170 --> 01:17:56.000
It could work. I, she just, she seems to... Hmm.
1451
01:17:58.890 --> 01:18:01.149
I think that there's something about Kristen Bell at that
1452
01:18:01.210 --> 01:18:05.529
time that's, like, very, very grounded, right? And I think
1453
01:18:05.550 --> 01:18:07.649
that I would want someone that's, like, a little bit
1454
01:18:07.689 --> 01:18:12.159
more wide-eyed. A little bit more, like, has a, like,
1455
01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:13.720
a knafe to them.
1456
01:18:13.739 --> 01:18:14.260
I know what you're saying.
1457
01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:15.199
Whether it's, like, a man or a woman.
1458
01:18:15.619 --> 01:18:15.720
Yeah.
1459
01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:15.859
Yeah.
1460
01:18:16.970 --> 01:18:18.729
But I think that's kind of part of the problem
1461
01:18:18.930 --> 01:18:24.760
with the Myers character and the performance is he's too soft.
1462
01:18:25.260 --> 01:18:26.800
And I know that like the arc is that he
1463
01:18:26.859 --> 01:18:29.840
ultimately gets, it's quote unquote hardened by the end of
1464
01:18:29.899 --> 01:18:34.659
the movie, but I just, he's just a little too boyish.
1465
01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.180
He's just a little too, like, he feels like a boy.
1466
01:18:37.220 --> 01:18:40.619
He doesn't feel like a man. And, and how boys
1467
01:18:40.659 --> 01:18:42.739
have Tom Hardy, despite his name, he is a man.
1468
01:18:43.359 --> 01:18:46.800
The Tom Hardy pitch. That's still what I'm going with.
1469
01:18:47.399 --> 01:18:51.260
What about Chris Evans? Do we think Chris Evans would work?
1470
01:18:51.859 --> 01:18:54.729
I don't think he had the chops then. Okay.
1471
01:18:55.270 --> 01:18:58.890
Alright. Does he have the chops now? That's a question too.
1472
01:18:59.449 --> 01:19:02.369
I think he does. There's been quite a few films
1473
01:19:02.390 --> 01:19:04.390
where it's just like, okay, he's learned how to be
1474
01:19:04.430 --> 01:19:05.529
an action hero.
1475
01:19:06.470 --> 01:19:12.210
Yeah. The movie around him. Not always the best, but yeah.
1476
01:19:12.369 --> 01:19:13.729
Not to turn this into a Chris Evans thing, but
1477
01:19:13.770 --> 01:19:16.029
I just need to sort of just say this. A
1478
01:19:16.729 --> 01:19:21.310
real disappointing turn of events for Chris Evans in the
1479
01:19:21.369 --> 01:19:25.970
last couple of years in the sense of he extricates
1480
01:19:26.430 --> 01:19:30.550
himself from Marvel. He decides, I need to be taken
1481
01:19:30.569 --> 01:19:32.529
a little bit more seriously. I'm going to do some stuff.
1482
01:19:33.210 --> 01:19:37.800
And those things are just a really bad Ethan Coen movie.
1483
01:19:38.619 --> 01:19:42.100
um he's miscast in the materialists despite a movie that
1484
01:19:42.140 --> 01:19:44.199
i kind of like i just don't think he's particularly
1485
01:19:44.239 --> 01:19:46.720
well cast in it and then he's in some movie
1486
01:19:46.739 --> 01:19:48.909
that's coming out with it sacrifice which apparently is terrible
1487
01:19:48.949 --> 01:19:50.329
like i just don't understand what's.
1488
01:19:50.229 --> 01:19:52.449
Happening the first and the first thing he does outside
1489
01:19:52.470 --> 01:19:55.130
of marvel is knives out where he is just agreeably
1490
01:19:55.189 --> 01:19:58.050
douchey and you're like he's got it he's he's figured
1491
01:19:58.090 --> 01:19:59.350
it out totally agree.
1492
01:19:59.699 --> 01:20:05.050
Okay if we're if we're aiming a little bit older Yes.
1493
01:20:05.170 --> 01:20:10.699
If we, if we like, obviously Tom Hardy, um, Chris, Kristen, um,
1494
01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:13.840
they're all like, you know, in their early twenties, but
1495
01:20:15.859 --> 01:20:18.220
Josh Brolin.
1496
01:20:18.239 --> 01:20:22.180
Oh, interesting. Okay. A little bit older, a little bit.
1497
01:20:22.079 --> 01:20:25.510
Like more grounded energy, but also just like, I've seen
1498
01:20:25.590 --> 01:20:26.949
shit and I don't want to see it again.
1499
01:20:26.970 --> 01:20:29.500
That's interesting. I don't hate it.
1500
01:20:30.970 --> 01:20:33.869
You know, who's, you know, who's a little bit older.
1501
01:20:35.140 --> 01:20:39.619
right in that right in that range yeah yeah jimmy simpson.
1502
01:20:40.699 --> 01:20:41.979
What are we doing now.
1503
01:20:43.270 --> 01:20:45.229
Jimmy simpson just kind of plays that guy all the
1504
01:20:45.250 --> 01:20:46.449
time so.
1505
01:20:47.350 --> 01:20:50.029
Not all the time but yes a lot.
1506
01:20:49.930 --> 01:20:52.449
Of the time jimmy simpson.
1507
01:20:52.029 --> 01:20:58.470
Jimmy simpson uh zodiac it's always sunny west world.
1508
01:20:58.649 --> 01:21:01.409
Yeah Just kind of, when you see him, you're like, oh,
1509
01:21:01.470 --> 01:21:03.850
there's Jimmy Simpson. And then when you're not thinking about him,
1510
01:21:03.869 --> 01:21:04.369
you're kind of like.
1511
01:21:04.529 --> 01:21:06.949
Okay. But in 2004, he was in Debs.
1512
01:21:08.010 --> 01:21:08.729
There you go.
1513
01:21:08.869 --> 01:21:11.010
There you go. So he's ready. He's ripe. He's ready.
1514
01:21:11.029 --> 01:21:12.310
Yeah.
1515
01:21:12.970 --> 01:21:14.149
I mean, I do want to talk just for a
1516
01:21:14.170 --> 01:21:17.050
quick second about the action set pieces in this movie,
1517
01:21:17.069 --> 01:21:19.890
which are phenomenal. Oh, my God. Sorry.
1518
01:21:19.909 --> 01:21:20.369
The last one.
1519
01:21:20.409 --> 01:21:25.609
Bradley Cooper. Too sleazy. He has a vibe.
1520
01:21:29.420 --> 01:21:30.979
He didn't have that vibe then.
1521
01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:33.039
He's just been booted off of alias.
1522
01:21:33.420 --> 01:21:36.869
Yeah, he was the golden boy, nice guy. And I
1523
01:21:37.069 --> 01:21:40.189
think he's better at being sleazy, but I think he was.
1524
01:21:40.829 --> 01:21:45.010
Wait, wait, one last pitch. Just because I've been re-watching
1525
01:21:45.050 --> 01:21:46.789
the show. Noah Wiley.
1526
01:21:48.109 --> 01:21:50.649
Okay, okay. Now we're cooking.
1527
01:21:50.649 --> 01:21:51.869
2004, peak ER, Noah Wiley.
1528
01:21:51.869 --> 01:21:53.869
100%.
1529
01:21:57.350 --> 01:22:00.239
I'm there for it. We cracked the code. We solved it.
1530
01:22:00.250 --> 01:22:05.760
He'd be perfect. He'd be perfect. Yeah, I feel like
1531
01:22:06.920 --> 01:22:10.239
the action scenes, which obviously Guillermo is incredibly adept at
1532
01:22:10.380 --> 01:22:14.119
and proved with Blade II and everything he had done since.
1533
01:22:14.220 --> 01:22:19.420
But it is a movie that blends seamlessly the CG
1534
01:22:19.659 --> 01:22:23.180
with the practical. There's a lot of practical creature effects,
1535
01:22:23.220 --> 01:22:29.130
especially with the Sam males, whatever they're called. um the
1536
01:22:29.170 --> 01:22:33.789
subway sequence is fantastic um all the sort of big
1537
01:22:33.810 --> 01:22:41.500
uh cg sequences are done so lovingly and well done
1538
01:22:41.880 --> 01:22:44.399
as opposed to what we now are inundated with which
1539
01:22:44.460 --> 01:22:48.319
is just sort of volume it's like ai slop where
1540
01:22:48.460 --> 01:22:50.199
our eyes glaze over and we just kind of see
1541
01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:55.420
stuff um Yeah, it's great. The makeup just in general,
1542
01:22:55.500 --> 01:23:00.000
we talked obviously Abe Sapien, my future husband, is tremendous.
1543
01:23:01.600 --> 01:23:03.279
I'm glad that we have a Phil gets married to
1544
01:23:03.319 --> 01:23:07.720
someone arc for once on this show.
1545
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:09.439
So sweet!
1546
01:23:09.590 --> 01:23:15.630
The Cronin morgue sequence where we get to sort of
1547
01:23:15.670 --> 01:23:18.130
see what he looks like, what his visage looks like
1548
01:23:18.189 --> 01:23:24.760
underneath his steampunk gimp suit. is is amazing and you
1549
01:23:24.859 --> 01:23:29.159
know that it's creepy because you don't get to see
1550
01:23:29.220 --> 01:23:32.520
it much like it's he's under kind of this sheet
1551
01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:36.270
or this kind of plastic film they they it's clear
1552
01:23:36.279 --> 01:23:38.010
that like this would have got them an r rating
1553
01:23:38.090 --> 01:23:41.470
if they didn't if they was this rated r i
1554
01:23:41.489 --> 01:23:43.949
don't think so what's this r i think it was pg-13.
1555
01:23:43.789 --> 01:23:45.829
No i saw it in theaters there's.
1556
01:23:45.649 --> 01:23:48.229
No way i would have been able to see a
1557
01:23:48.229 --> 01:23:51.359
rated r film So I just, that makeup, that whole sequence,
1558
01:23:51.659 --> 01:23:56.300
all that stuff with Cronin is just, is fantastic. Even
1559
01:23:56.340 --> 01:24:01.189
just the way that they kill Broom is quite visceral.
1560
01:24:01.510 --> 01:24:03.930
And like, yes, it's out of, it's sort of like
1561
01:24:04.109 --> 01:24:07.609
in the background out of focus, but this, you know
1562
01:24:07.649 --> 01:24:11.890
that that knife is going through the back of his head.
1563
01:24:12.010 --> 01:24:20.770
It's really good. Love the sequence of Hellboy reanimating... Is
1564
01:24:20.829 --> 01:24:27.409
it Ivan? Is that the Russian corpse? The snow coming
1565
01:24:27.449 --> 01:24:36.449
down and him in the grave and the makeup of Ivan.
1566
01:24:36.569 --> 01:24:39.819
All that shit's just gold to me. That's just Guillermo
1567
01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:43.699
firing on all cylinders. Ivan in general firing on all cylinders.
1568
01:24:43.859 --> 01:24:48.560
Ivan on his shoulder speaking in Russian nonsense is just great.
1569
01:24:49.130 --> 01:24:50.810
Was it subtitled for you?
1570
01:24:50.850 --> 01:24:51.590
It was not for me.
1571
01:24:52.750 --> 01:24:58.210
I watched it on Canopy, the library streaming service, and
1572
01:24:58.369 --> 01:25:00.890
everything was subtitled. And I was like, I don't remember this.
1573
01:25:01.069 --> 01:25:02.409
And now I know everything he says.
1574
01:25:02.640 --> 01:25:04.079
Does it say anything good?
1575
01:25:05.079 --> 01:25:07.800
It's all just very silly. It's like, go that way,
1576
01:25:07.859 --> 01:25:09.720
monster boy, that kind of thing.
1577
01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:15.699
Yeah, I also appreciated what they did with the Manning character,
1578
01:25:15.739 --> 01:25:18.109
with the Jeffrey Tambor character. which is that it would
1579
01:25:18.130 --> 01:25:20.130
have been very easy to make him sort of the
1580
01:25:20.170 --> 01:25:23.220
dumb suit who fucks up everything and makes his life
1581
01:25:23.409 --> 01:25:26.000
bad and then dies or whatever like that. So I
1582
01:25:26.039 --> 01:25:28.840
appreciate that. They like made them kind of friendly and
1583
01:25:28.880 --> 01:25:31.239
like they worked as a team to, to take down,
1584
01:25:31.399 --> 01:25:32.399
you know, I appreciated that.
1585
01:25:32.659 --> 01:25:35.460
Uh, Jeffrey Tambert, just, just an, also a piece of shit.
1586
01:25:35.739 --> 01:25:35.920
Yes.
1587
01:25:36.319 --> 01:25:38.939
To be clear. Yes. Not a, not a good guy, but.
1588
01:25:39.199 --> 01:25:41.489
Yeah, no, it's a, this movie, this movie, but it's
1589
01:25:41.529 --> 01:25:42.770
got Ron Perlman. He's a sweetie.
1590
01:25:43.069 --> 01:25:46.979
So he's a sweetie. Um, liz's line red or white
1591
01:25:47.020 --> 01:25:47.880
guys are all the same as.
1592
01:25:47.880 --> 01:25:56.189
Great great great quote i i used air quotes around
1593
01:25:56.229 --> 01:25:56.569
that yeah.
1594
01:25:57.210 --> 01:25:59.210
I mean it was it was it's just i think
1595
01:25:59.250 --> 01:26:03.390
that there's something funny about this notion that like you
1596
01:26:03.430 --> 01:26:07.609
know hellboy's just another guy who can't doesn't understand his
1597
01:26:07.649 --> 01:26:09.670
emotions i just think that there's.
1598
01:26:09.590 --> 01:26:12.369
There is something hellboy is the male loneliness epidemic let's
1599
01:26:12.409 --> 01:26:13.550
talk about this for 20 minutes.
1600
01:26:13.390 --> 01:26:16.020
Let's talk about that sure How boy turning into a
1601
01:26:16.079 --> 01:26:18.560
real demon when like the portal is opened and his
1602
01:26:18.689 --> 01:26:19.729
horns grow.
1603
01:26:19.939 --> 01:26:20.109
Good.
1604
01:26:20.130 --> 01:26:21.710
So good. Good.
1605
01:26:22.050 --> 01:26:26.510
Like the, the fire coming out and like the, the
1606
01:26:26.689 --> 01:26:31.630
undeniable marks of destiny and then him tearing them off.
1607
01:26:31.890 --> 01:26:34.800
It's good. It's good stuff. I think it's really like
1608
01:26:35.399 --> 01:26:40.220
the idea of, I think Guillermo very often asks us like,
1609
01:26:40.479 --> 01:26:45.270
what choice do we have? It's very much a thrust
1610
01:26:45.489 --> 01:26:48.420
of a lot of his work. And I think that
1611
01:26:48.500 --> 01:26:53.000
this is another really interesting place where it's like choices
1612
01:26:53.039 --> 01:26:55.960
have been made for you, but also you will always
1613
01:26:56.020 --> 01:27:00.659
have your choice. Totally. And the idea of destiny as
1614
01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:02.770
a series of choices other people have made for you
1615
01:27:02.850 --> 01:27:05.850
versus the choice you make for yourself. Very good stuff.
1616
01:27:06.590 --> 01:27:10.829
It's great because, and truth be told, it's, I would argue,
1617
01:27:10.850 --> 01:27:14.329
the climax of the movie for me. I think that
1618
01:27:14.390 --> 01:27:19.510
the death of Rasputin and his hench person is a
1619
01:27:19.510 --> 01:27:22.069
little too easy. They just get crushed by a tentacle.
1620
01:27:22.390 --> 01:27:27.560
It didn't feel particularly cathartic to me. And despite the
1621
01:27:27.579 --> 01:27:32.180
fact that Hellboy reviving Liz and kissing her is obviously
1622
01:27:33.380 --> 01:27:37.079
emotionally satisfying, I don't understand how he revives her exactly.
1623
01:27:37.100 --> 01:27:39.899
It does feel like the end of movie two. It
1624
01:27:39.960 --> 01:27:42.319
feels like we've stumbled into the end of the second movie.
1625
01:27:42.680 --> 01:27:43.880
That moment specifically.
1626
01:27:44.100 --> 01:27:49.710
Yeah. But him in hell becoming sort of the demon
1627
01:27:49.789 --> 01:27:54.930
destiny that was always sort of whatever and controlling his
1628
01:27:55.010 --> 01:27:58.310
own destiny, that to me feels like the climax of
1629
01:27:58.329 --> 01:28:01.140
the movie. That feels like also just iconically and just
1630
01:28:01.220 --> 01:28:03.500
visually is just phenomenal.
1631
01:28:03.680 --> 01:28:07.020
I've been a very good girl. And Lynn's been a
1632
01:28:07.039 --> 01:28:10.590
very good guest, but I have not brought up the
1633
01:28:10.609 --> 01:28:12.890
game apocalypse keys but i'm going to.
1634
01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:15.340
Now please do please do this is the it is.
1635
01:28:15.319 --> 01:28:18.659
A tabletop role-playing game that is like very clearly based
1636
01:28:18.760 --> 01:28:22.359
on hellboy with it's not actually for legal but like
1637
01:28:22.920 --> 01:28:25.020
you work in like a group of people who are
1638
01:28:25.060 --> 01:28:29.449
like trying to like stop the apocalypse but the stuff
1639
01:28:29.510 --> 01:28:32.590
that you can do like you you eventually you have
1640
01:28:32.630 --> 01:28:35.270
like a little thing that you're marking on and eventually
1641
01:28:35.350 --> 01:28:38.539
you yourself might trigger the apocalypse which is like always
1642
01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:42.819
the hellboy thing sure and it's it it is great
1643
01:28:42.859 --> 01:28:44.640
fun i've only played it like once or twice but
1644
01:28:44.680 --> 01:28:46.159
i need i need to i need to get it
1645
01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:47.600
going again so.
1646
01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:52.689
Yes so it's it's designed by ray najati um and
1647
01:28:53.369 --> 01:28:55.850
one of the really interesting things that apocalypse keys does
1648
01:28:55.909 --> 01:28:59.789
that is uh pushing the system upon which it is
1649
01:28:59.829 --> 01:29:03.510
built further is that it does this thing called, uh,
1650
01:29:03.670 --> 01:29:06.100
I spoke, I forget like what it's specifically called in
1651
01:29:06.109 --> 01:29:09.180
this game, but basically if you succeed too well, it
1652
01:29:09.260 --> 01:29:14.279
has consequences very often in role playing games. It's like, uh,
1653
01:29:14.439 --> 01:29:18.449
like on a, on a scale, typically one to 20,
1654
01:29:18.449 --> 01:29:22.340
20 is the best. You get everything you want. It's perfect.
1655
01:29:22.699 --> 01:29:25.340
Don't worry about it. You're you're in and out of there.
1656
01:29:25.989 --> 01:29:29.350
But in this game, it's like if you roll a 20,
1657
01:29:29.350 --> 01:29:34.300
it's just like, oh, you have flown too close to
1658
01:29:34.359 --> 01:29:36.800
the sun, right? Like you get everything you want, but
1659
01:29:36.840 --> 01:29:39.800
it blows back on you. You do exactly what you
1660
01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:43.140
want to do, but someone else suffers. Like it's being
1661
01:29:43.159 --> 01:29:47.029
too good, being too much of who you are. It's
1662
01:29:47.069 --> 01:29:51.069
being too perfect, right? And that is a really interesting
1663
01:29:51.149 --> 01:29:54.829
twist on the way that we see games as like
1664
01:29:55.130 --> 01:29:58.590
a very strict, like progression fantasy where it's like, okay,
1665
01:29:58.609 --> 01:30:00.529
if you're at level two, you can do up to this.
1666
01:30:00.569 --> 01:30:02.050
If you're at level three, you can do up to this.
1667
01:30:02.670 --> 01:30:05.609
And in this game, which is very, again, similar to
1668
01:30:05.649 --> 01:30:12.619
hell boy in the way that like other genre media happens, right?
1669
01:30:12.680 --> 01:30:15.619
Like we can point to supernatural, which was like going
1670
01:30:15.699 --> 01:30:18.000
to be released in a couple of years. We can
1671
01:30:18.020 --> 01:30:21.449
look at X, uh, X files. We can look at, um,
1672
01:30:22.180 --> 01:30:26.460
Anything that has these sorts of, like, supernatural elements to it.
1673
01:30:27.039 --> 01:30:30.800
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. If you do something too well,
1674
01:30:31.319 --> 01:30:33.819
there's always going to be these, like, consequences, right? It's
1675
01:30:33.880 --> 01:30:37.539
the monkey's paw. And it is really interesting how that
1676
01:30:37.600 --> 01:30:40.319
is translated not only in Apocalypse Keys, but, like, throughout
1677
01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:43.119
genre where it's, like, you have to understand that your
1678
01:30:43.159 --> 01:30:45.119
limitations are put there for a reason.
1679
01:30:45.140 --> 01:30:45.979
Mm-hmm.
1680
01:30:46.369 --> 01:30:48.859
And if you move beyond them and if you push
1681
01:30:48.939 --> 01:30:52.220
too far, people will get hurt. Not because you've done
1682
01:30:52.380 --> 01:30:56.640
something badly, but because like you are so powerful. Chill
1683
01:30:56.680 --> 01:30:57.350
the fuck out.
1684
01:31:01.109 --> 01:31:02.449
Um, I love that.
1685
01:31:02.770 --> 01:31:05.630
I also just want to... It's going to happen.
1686
01:31:06.149 --> 01:31:08.670
It's funny you would say that. There's a documentary that
1687
01:31:08.770 --> 01:31:11.510
our past and future guest Simon Ennis directed called The Hobby.
1688
01:31:11.550 --> 01:31:14.689
I don't know if either of you have seen this documentary.
1689
01:31:14.939 --> 01:31:19.859
It's a great documentary about tabletop games. And it is currently...
1690
01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:22.720
You can stream it on Amazon right now. You can
1691
01:31:22.779 --> 01:31:25.260
stream it on any number. It's free on Tubi. It's
1692
01:31:25.319 --> 01:31:30.210
free on YouTube. It's free on all sorts of sites. Um,
1693
01:31:30.470 --> 01:31:33.930
it's a great documentary, highly recommend it. Um, and it
1694
01:31:33.970 --> 01:31:35.810
speaks to a lot of the things that you're talking about, Lynn,
1695
01:31:36.060 --> 01:31:42.039
of just sort of the, um, the, the sense of
1696
01:31:42.100 --> 01:31:46.659
community that, that is around this, um, and the creativity
1697
01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:49.380
that comes into, like, it's, it's all just really, um,
1698
01:31:49.760 --> 01:31:51.319
it's fascinating to me. So. Yeah.
1699
01:31:52.319 --> 01:31:55.560
The hobby is about trading card games. No.
1700
01:31:56.310 --> 01:31:56.550
No.
1701
01:31:56.989 --> 01:31:59.109
What am I looking at? Director Morgan Fox.
1702
01:31:59.949 --> 01:32:02.090
No okay what am i simon.
1703
01:32:01.890 --> 01:32:04.909
Ennis okay i think it's i think his is more
1704
01:32:04.949 --> 01:32:07.569
broadly about board games but i don't remember i.
1705
01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:10.930
Was gonna watch simons is about is is about tabletop
1706
01:32:11.029 --> 01:32:11.909
board games.
1707
01:32:12.449 --> 01:32:16.989
Wow hilarious that two documentaries titled the hobby both came
1708
01:32:17.060 --> 01:32:18.779
out when was the other one that came out i'm
1709
01:32:18.819 --> 01:32:21.939
just curious 2024 that's very strange.
1710
01:32:22.119 --> 01:32:26.880
Okay well simon should sue word the hobby he should.
1711
01:32:27.470 --> 01:32:30.350
But yes, it's a great documentary. Highly recommend our listeners
1712
01:32:30.390 --> 01:32:32.729
check it out. And obviously, you guys should check it
1713
01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:36.390
out too. You want to rate this movie, Emily?
1714
01:32:36.810 --> 01:32:39.550
Let's do it. I was thinking about this as we
1715
01:32:39.590 --> 01:32:42.569
were talking and realizing that as I've seen this movie
1716
01:32:42.590 --> 01:32:45.850
several times, I really enjoy this movie. I could not
1717
01:32:45.890 --> 01:32:48.069
have told you the story of it, even though I
1718
01:32:48.109 --> 01:32:51.640
watched it yesterday. The story of it is immaterial to
1719
01:32:51.659 --> 01:32:53.850
why I enjoy it. And the thing that I love
1720
01:32:54.100 --> 01:32:56.289
is when there's a movie that you watch and it
1721
01:32:56.350 --> 01:32:59.069
feels like you're in another world. And I kind of
1722
01:32:59.090 --> 01:33:02.729
don't care what the story is in that regard. The
1723
01:33:02.770 --> 01:33:04.550
Green Knight's a movie I point to all the time.
1724
01:33:04.569 --> 01:33:07.180
The story there's kind of immaterial. You're stepping into another
1725
01:33:07.220 --> 01:33:09.640
time and place. And Hellboy makes me feel that way.
1726
01:33:09.800 --> 01:33:13.119
I love X-Files shit. I love Christian esoterica. I love
1727
01:33:13.239 --> 01:33:16.090
all these things. I think this movie's a lot of fun.
1728
01:33:16.250 --> 01:33:18.229
I recognize the problems within it, so I'm going to
1729
01:33:18.270 --> 01:33:21.119
give it an 80. I was probably like an 85
1730
01:33:21.119 --> 01:33:22.939
back in the day, but it's wonderful.
1731
01:33:24.060 --> 01:33:26.680
So, Lynn, what we do on this podcast, we try
1732
01:33:26.720 --> 01:33:28.840
to rate it back when we saw it first and
1733
01:33:28.880 --> 01:33:31.409
then rate it what we think of it now, 0
1734
01:33:31.409 --> 01:33:36.050
to 99. Sure. Do you have thoughts on how you
1735
01:33:36.069 --> 01:33:38.289
felt about this movie in 2004 and how it feels
1736
01:33:38.310 --> 01:33:38.729
for you now?
1737
01:33:39.649 --> 01:33:42.859
Again, I was 13 when I saw this film. I
1738
01:33:42.880 --> 01:33:45.699
thought it whipped. I thought it was the coolest shit
1739
01:33:45.739 --> 01:33:49.489
that I've ever seen in my life. First Guillermo del
1740
01:33:49.529 --> 01:33:53.029
Toro film. First, probably my first superhero film. I don't
1741
01:33:53.050 --> 01:33:55.850
know if I was allowed to watch Batman kind of thing.
1742
01:33:55.890 --> 01:33:56.729
Like, I don't know.
1743
01:33:56.750 --> 01:33:59.380
I was 13. I don't think that like I had a,
1744
01:34:00.060 --> 01:34:05.159
I don't pay a taste. But yeah, I loved it.
1745
01:34:05.239 --> 01:34:07.659
So whatever, I know that like you guys are doing
1746
01:34:07.680 --> 01:34:10.479
a number rating, but I don't know if that's, Totally
1747
01:34:10.550 --> 01:34:12.630
what I was doing when I was 13, but like
1748
01:34:13.029 --> 01:34:16.069
whatever really, really cool for a 13 year old is.
1749
01:34:17.250 --> 01:34:17.890
That's my rating.
1750
01:34:17.909 --> 01:34:20.520
Where are you now? Zero to 99.
1751
01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:22.659
Man, I still, I still really enjoy it. I don't
1752
01:34:22.680 --> 01:34:24.939
know if it's because of the nostalgia or because again,
1753
01:34:25.340 --> 01:34:27.479
like what Emily said, it just sort of immerses you
1754
01:34:27.579 --> 01:34:32.739
in this like high fantasy world. theological esoterica cult world
1755
01:34:32.800 --> 01:34:35.000
that's like really fun and exciting of course like one
1756
01:34:35.020 --> 01:34:36.859
of my favorite films is like hellboy one of my
1757
01:34:36.899 --> 01:34:39.699
favorite television shows that comes out in like 2009 is
1758
01:34:39.890 --> 01:34:42.449
kings so like this is.
1759
01:34:43.090 --> 01:34:46.770
Don't don't don't no no no i kings crazy well
1760
01:34:46.890 --> 01:34:48.310
i mean we should should we do.
1761
01:34:48.250 --> 01:34:55.979
A So here's the thing I don't want to do
1762
01:34:56.079 --> 01:34:59.819
episode by episode stuff Because it gives me PTSD flashbacks
1763
01:34:59.840 --> 01:35:02.079
But we should just do a Kings episode Let's do
1764
01:35:02.140 --> 01:35:02.680
it Lynn you.
1765
01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:06.640
Can come on for our Kings episode Yay oh my.
1766
01:35:06.619 --> 01:35:10.000
God please I've watched that show I have the DVD
1767
01:35:10.020 --> 01:35:12.119
It's like the only show that I have the DVD
1768
01:35:12.180 --> 01:35:15.630
of Anyway I think now I would probably still rate
1769
01:35:15.710 --> 01:35:18.100
it I think Emily is exactly right Like an 85
1770
01:35:18.100 --> 01:35:24.229
80 to 90 feels good To me I would re-watch this.
1771
01:35:24.350 --> 01:35:26.729
I would recommend it. I would still have a good time.
1772
01:35:29.550 --> 01:35:32.489
Okay, cool. Bill?
1773
01:35:32.649 --> 01:35:33.539
Yeah, you got it.
1774
01:35:34.100 --> 01:35:36.460
In 04, I probably would have given it a 65.
1775
01:35:36.460 --> 01:35:39.100
I liked it fine. It didn't knock my socks off.
1776
01:35:39.739 --> 01:35:43.140
I think now I'm at a 78, 79. I think
1777
01:35:44.000 --> 01:35:47.159
it's a really fun movie. I very much enjoy it.
1778
01:35:49.020 --> 01:35:54.100
And yeah, I mean, I think To me, it's a
1779
01:35:54.119 --> 01:35:56.439
movie that really reminds you of a lot of elements
1780
01:35:56.520 --> 01:36:00.100
of film craft that we've lost. Which is the way
1781
01:36:00.140 --> 01:36:02.579
I feel about the Pirates of the Caribbean sequels. Movies
1782
01:36:02.619 --> 01:36:04.579
I don't really love, but I watch them and I'm like, oh,
1783
01:36:04.960 --> 01:36:07.760
they made this thing. This is like, oh, look at
1784
01:36:07.779 --> 01:36:09.039
all this stuff they made.
1785
01:36:10.380 --> 01:36:10.680
Totally.
1786
01:36:11.180 --> 01:36:12.199
We used to have cinema.
1787
01:36:14.140 --> 01:36:16.899
Lynn, can you tell people where they can read you?
1788
01:36:17.600 --> 01:36:19.119
Or perhaps see you? Listen to you?
1789
01:36:20.140 --> 01:36:24.859
Yeah, so I am an author and a journalist. My books,
1790
01:36:25.079 --> 01:36:27.359
Posh to the Storm and Moth Theater, are available anywhere
1791
01:36:27.380 --> 01:36:29.659
books are sold. A lot of my journalism can either
1792
01:36:29.699 --> 01:36:32.439
be found on Rascal News, which is dedicated to tabletop
1793
01:36:32.500 --> 01:36:35.760
role-playing games, which is a site I co-founded a couple
1794
01:36:36.020 --> 01:36:39.979
years ago with a couple other journalists, or on Fansplaining,
1795
01:36:40.149 --> 01:36:46.930
where I talk about fandom. And yeah, but I'm Lynn Kodega, L-A-N-C-O-D-E-G-A,
1796
01:36:47.529 --> 01:36:49.229
on every social media platform.
1797
01:36:50.319 --> 01:36:52.819
And um pasha the storm is one of my uh
1798
01:36:52.899 --> 01:36:56.439
just a blast i recommend it to everyone who enjoys
1799
01:36:56.520 --> 01:37:02.250
just kind of like rip-roaring fantasy adventure stuff and pirates
1800
01:37:02.510 --> 01:37:03.710
and lesbians so.
1801
01:37:04.710 --> 01:37:06.529
What's not to love about all of those things sounds
1802
01:37:06.550 --> 01:37:10.199
amazing um next week on this podcast we're talking pants
1803
01:37:10.239 --> 01:37:14.640
labyrinth um we're we're we're gonna meet the fawn emily's
1804
01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:19.109
future husband hi um And we're going to talk about
1805
01:37:19.189 --> 01:37:25.659
all sorts of things with Sonia Saraya. And do you
1806
01:37:25.699 --> 01:37:27.920
have any thoughts on Pan's Labyrinth, Lynn? You fan?
1807
01:37:29.260 --> 01:37:31.779
Yeah, huge fan. Big fan. Good movie, right?
1808
01:37:31.939 --> 01:37:32.359
Good movie.
1809
01:37:32.399 --> 01:37:37.729
Good movie. Sonia will have many more interesting things to say.
1810
01:37:37.810 --> 01:37:38.930
But yeah, fantastic.
1811
01:37:39.409 --> 01:37:42.510
It's a fantastic movie. And then we're talking Hellboy 2.
1812
01:37:42.510 --> 01:37:46.489
We're going to go back and hang out with the gang. Although, Myers,
1813
01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:49.279
not in it. weird what a what.
1814
01:37:49.140 --> 01:37:52.800
A great october this has been it is just having
1815
01:37:52.819 --> 01:37:56.119
a great time yeah this is it's a good it's
1816
01:37:56.140 --> 01:37:58.310
a good spooky season to spend it's it's a.
1817
01:37:58.310 --> 01:38:00.890
Perfect season yeah and then we're gonna spend the fall
1818
01:38:00.949 --> 01:38:05.489
with uh ya it's gonna be great yeah um all
1819
01:38:05.510 --> 01:38:07.729
right um thank you so much lynn this was a
1820
01:38:07.750 --> 01:38:09.489
blast we can't wait to have you back to talk
1821
01:38:09.529 --> 01:38:12.260
about kings or something else it's gonna be great or
1822
01:38:12.279 --> 01:38:15.520
country bears country bears i don't even know what that
1823
01:38:15.579 --> 01:38:19.090
is It's better. You're better off for it. All right.
1824
01:38:19.729 --> 01:38:20.720
Thank you. Talk to you later.
1825
01:38:20.770 --> 01:38:21.399
Bye guys.
1826
01:38:21.539 --> 01:38:22.020
Bye.