speaker-0: Yeah. One more time, one more time. Okay, ready, here we go. Guitar.
speaker-1: And Three, two, one or the number? Yep. Three, two, one.
speaker-0: Word.
speaker-1: Tell me when. Well sometimes you need time. No, I don't need time to do it. Okay. Three, two, one
speaker-0: You go. We're we finished. ⁓ many times.
speaker-1: Three, two, one, two.
speaker-0: Mm.
speaker-1: Three, two, one.
speaker-0: Wait.
speaker-1: Okay, so sing and rhythm. Three, two, one. ⁓ we were so close! Can't say the same word. Rap and song, okay? Three, two, one
speaker-0: Dang What Melody. ⁓
speaker-1: Three, two, one I don't even have a word.
speaker-0: I was gonna wait for you to start it and then I was gonna Hey everyone.
speaker-1: Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Pocket Theology. We hope that our silly games ⁓ of of help you
speaker-0: Top pocket theology. Hot pocket theology.
speaker-1: Man, it is it's fun to sit down and and just joke and but it does get your brain moving. That's the most
speaker-0: Well so we started off as the game of trying to get through and that that kinda got my juices flowing in my brain a little bit. Yeah. My brain my brain's move
speaker-1: It's like those exercises that you know people do before they take the stage. Like they're doing the syllabic exercise.
speaker-0: Did you know monosyllabic isn't monosyllabic?
speaker-1: So, ⁓ we wanted to try to take this time to conclude our conversation on rest. ⁓ and I was particularly taken aback by a statement that you made last week, and I kind of would love to start our conversation there. ⁓ we were talking about how ⁓ patterns of rest are dictated by lots of different things culture, absolutely, values, ⁓ structure, ⁓ either ⁓
speaker-0: All right.
speaker-1: based on our religious preferences or things like that. But but one comment you made was most often people usually flow back to their personal preferences when it comes to rest. ⁓ so as an example, someone who's more comfortable in social spaces, who finds rest in their small groups or in fun activities, They are with God, they're with people, they're learning, they're talking. Maybe another person is more at rest in quiet ⁓ spaces, contemplation, prayer, music, reading, ⁓ with a warm cup of coffee and a blanket kind of situation. Absolutely. and the question I want to start our c our conversation off today is is there a ⁓ w where do preference and challenge meet?
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ first of all it's a great question. ⁓ do you know the difference between extrovert and introvert? Yes.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ an extrovert is someone who finds that they are ⁓ energized or charged up or or ⁓ they're filled by being out with people. And an introvert perhaps needs to be ⁓ have some alone time or or time away or maybe with safe people where they can recharge and and be filled.
speaker-0: So this actually fits the conversation of what what we're talking about. ⁓ a lot of people misunderstand. They think extrovert introvert is whether or not you like people. I know extroverts who don't like people. Sure. They get charged. Yeah. So one way that I've heard it described is some people are solar powered. Some people are battery powered. Yeah. Right? Battery powered are internal. They need time alone. They need those. So we are wired certain ways. And if you don't understand how you're wired, now
speaker-1: Cool.
speaker-0: Now you have this new one called ex ⁓ ambivert. Yeah. Yep, and then there's a new one Otrovert, but I don't remember I I don't remember what that one can you can someone look up what
speaker-1: Where they can flow between the two. How can you have that many distinctives in a binary?
speaker-0: I don't know. Well, 'cause apparently it's not a binary anymore. But there's a new one's called Otrovert and that but I don't know much about it. But so first of all, there's no right or wrong way to connect. The hard part is, and and I think I've said this on here before. messy people love that you're clean. Clean people can't stand that you're messy. Okay. Sure.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Right? Yeah. Loud people don't mind that you're quiet. Quiet people can't stand that you're loud. Okay. So starting to see a theme here. Right. Yep. ⁓ here's what ends up happening is we have a tendency of assuming that my pattern must be yours. Mm-hmm. And then I want to f I want you to fit into who I am. Yeah. Right. And and we do this all the time. Like, ⁓ if somebody loves to read, I I'm this way. I love to read. So what's the first challenge you give? You should sit down and read a book.
speaker-1: Yeah. What is it called? It's ⁓ it's ⁓ conformity bias? Is that what it's called? When you No, I think conformity bias is when you believe like everyone believes what you believe.
speaker-0: Confirmation bias? ⁓ yeah, I don't know what the term for that is. That'd be also did we find out what Otrovert is yet?
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm trying to wrap my head around like ambervert versus outrovert n no, I think the distinction is an ambervert falls in the middle, right? Kind of flows between the two, but an outrovert finds ⁓ energy from one on ones and don't feel the need to be a part of the group or the crowd.
speaker-0: Is it the same thing? Okay, I actually I I actually I think I can define the difference. And again, I'm not done a lot of research. Okay. So what you described as an introvert, uh-huh, as someone who maybe with smaller people, that actually would be an outrovert. It's somebody because an intro a true introvert needs alone time. Sure. Or an outrovert actually needs more one on one. Like right? And and so you could say like from an energy perspective, how they get recharged is one on one. I actually would say I have moved more from Truly extroverted needing big crowds to being more ambiverted or outroverted, if that's the definition of otrovert. We're like this charges me.
speaker-1: Yeah. And I think that's also important for people to recognize that that that changes over time ⁓ potentially.
speaker-0: Well they're they've actually ⁓ a friend of mine who's a very well respected coach in the world, like ha owns a huge coaching organization. I didn't I didn't even know this when I met him. Like literally he's a world renowned coach and I had no clue. Well he's very quiet about it, owns a coaching business. But years ago I told him, I said, I've always been extroverted, but I'm finding the older I get and the more leadership I'm in, the more introverted I'm becoming. He said, Actually the research shows that people who are extroverted The older they get and the more they move into leadership, they move intro introvert. Because for me, my extroversion, this is going to tie into our our conversation here. The reason why I I was extroverted is I loved people, but those people weren't asking anything from me. But when all of a sudden you move into a leadership role, people want things from you. And now when you have a lot of people who want things from you, now they're taking. And that's like that's leadership.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: That's not a victim. Like I'm not a poor me. I've got to lead. No, but when I'm on a Sunday morning, when I'm preaching or when I'm pastoring, people need something from me. So I don't get the charge because the charge is going out. Yeah. I've actually found I enjoy my alone time more, but what really charges me are things like this. Yeah. Now, why does this matter? ⁓ understanding how you're wired is a really key component to understanding how to rest. Now When I made the comment is that we tend to go back to our patterns. Mm-hmm. The danger is, is sometimes we think that I'll use ⁓ the extroverted guy, right? Man, I get I get charged up by being in a group. Yeah. But am I actually still resting? Sure. And yes, I might be getting energized, but am I resting? ⁓ so my phone, it's ⁓ it it it's dying quickly quicker now because I've got more programs running on it, that kind of stuff. Now, I learned the hard way that ⁓ Apple has set it up in such a way that if you don't charge with an Apple cord, it doesn't charge as fast. And if you don't charge with an Apple charger, it won't charge as fast. It'll still charge. Yep, the block and the cord or so.
speaker-1: Okay. You mean like the block in the cord? Is that what you're
speaker-0: In fact, I've even found that there are chords that I'll put in that don't charge because Apple's found a way to make it so they don't ask me how that works. Sure. Now here's where the illustration comes in, right? Okay. Just because extroversion has worked for you to get charged doesn't mean you're actually getting charged the way God intended you to. Same is true for introverts, outrovers, whatever all the different words that we have now. Yeah. ⁓ you can assume that because you're alone, that means you're being charged, but Who who are you alone with? Is it just you and your thoughts? Are you spending time alone with the Lord? Yeah. Are you being intentional in your alone time? Because I know some people the reason why they like to be alone is they just want to energize. Yeah. But the goal of Sabbath is not just energy, it's communion. Yep. And
speaker-1: Before we get too far ahead into that concept, because I do wanna I do wanna hit that. Yeah. My my a part of what I like of what you're saying is ⁓ I I don't think you are saying if you're doing it this way it's entirely wrong. But you're saying a a holistic approach would involve both sides of things.
speaker-0: No. One, I don't even know what I'd say holistic. I w I would say because holistic implies that you always have to have both in order to be whole.
speaker-1: But is it true to say that lacking one part would lead to ⁓ maybe not a f a full n like I don't wanna keep using the word holistic if if that's like the vernacular we're getting hung up on. No, I what what I'm getting at is is When you said the way God might not be intending you to, my mind goes to would that extroverted person benefit from more of the s more solitude practices? Would the introverted person benefit from more community based
speaker-0: Practices. Maybe. And this is why I use the illustration when I first started with is that messy people think it's great that you're clean. Clean people can't always stand that you're messy. Sure. Loud people don't mind that you're quiet. Quiet people struggle with you being loud. Sure. Is that ⁓ if we force something, we we can move into something that actually can be detrimental. And so that's why I want to be careful, is you don't it's not like you always have to have it present. Yes. ⁓ remember are you old enough to remember the food pyramid? Yeah. Okay. ⁓ I w we were always taught growing up like you had grains, well now all of a sudden grains aren't supposed to be a part of the food pyramid anymore. Breads, you had all these things, right? ⁓ there are certain things that you are wired for that are ⁓ not unique to you. They're they're designed by God for all people. So the goal is not how you get them, it's that you get them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because if we focus on the how, well now we move into legalism, which is what the the Pharisees were dealing with, which is The Sabbath, now you can't walk more than 50 steps, right? If you go to Israel on the Sabbath, literally all the buttons on on Saturday are pre-pressed because that's work if you press a button. Yep. So what I would say is I think sometimes it's a good invitation and a good challenge to say, maybe I'm gonna try something and maybe just to push myself out and see what God does. Yeah. But I think we have to be careful to not when we start moving into prescription and saying now you have to do this in order to be balanced. Mm-hmm. Or to be whole or whatever language we want to use. I think we have to ask what is what are the things that God says are necessary for rest? For for true rest. I don't mean recovery, but I mean actual relationship with Him. So here are a few that scripture ⁓ seems to point to. One is some level of meditation. Now I don't mean sitting on a carpet and going, we're not talking that kind of meditation, but reflection. ⁓ if you go back to the Shema, Hero Israel, Lord our God is one, and it tells he then goes on and talks about, you know, meditating. I think that one of the ways that God has designed us is to meditate on him, but also to meditate on his word. And ⁓ that could be as simple as thinking about God's love. Mm-hmm. ⁓ I I posed a question last night at Lisa's small group. And I don't feel like I'm talking out of turn because this was a question I'd ask anybody. Someone asked the question, ⁓ How do I learn to hear God's voice? Mm-hmm. And so I said, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go sit down in your room if you're open for the challenge, bring out a notebook and say, Lord, I want you to tell me everything I need to hear about myself. And then every time you hear something negative, assume it's not the Lord. In fact, when you start hearing positive things that make you feel like, well, that feels weird. Maybe that's exactly where the Lord wants to meet you. Now it doesn't mean that God never says negative things to you, it doesn't call out sin. But how many of us have a hard time hearing things like, Jason, you're loved? Mm-hmm. You're wanted. Jason, I like you. I like your personality, right? Sure. And and here's why I did this exercise.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Because ⁓ a lot of times what we've done in our practices is we focus on what we're lacking instead of what God's already given us. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes. ⁓
speaker-0: Does that make sense does that do you see the connection in the
speaker-1: It does and I think I wanna clarify I I completely agree with everything you're saying and I don't think I was trying to push people into a mold. No, I I do just wanna clarify to that person that I d I and I don't th I don't think I'm outright disagreeing with you, but
speaker-0: No I didn't think you
speaker-1: an exploration of of the opposite, a prescription that isn't a prescription. Cause in a way you almost kind of just gave one. Right? So so I'm I'm not trying to say like, yeah, this person needs pregnisone or this person needs whatever. I think it's this to to understand rest is to understand it it from all sides.
speaker-0: So w so let me let me 'cause I didn't think you were saying that. Let's ⁓ there is a prescription. Mm-hmm. But the prescription is not now you need to get outside of your comfort zone and go do this thing so that you're more well balanced. And that's not what you were saying, but that's what we if we're not careful we can move into is first of all ⁓ okay, another another example, okay? I don't know.
speaker-1: I actually think I disagree with you. I
speaker-0: Well so let me finish my thought. Sure. Okay. ⁓ when it's ⁓ in he in ⁓ Proverbs when it says train a child on the way they shall go, they will not depart. Yeah. Okay. That word train, one of the understandings of that is actually not train them to go a direction, it's look for the natural bent in their life and teach them to go with that bend.
speaker-1: Hm, okay. Yeah. ⁓ yes. Okay. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's what I'm saying is because if and and so like in sp in sports, ⁓ there ⁓ I've often heard you need to train in your weaknesses, you're already strong in something. And all the mo most recent stuff, and I mean I mean like last ten, twenty years, has said the opposite. No, no, no. Don't work on your weaknesses. Like you can be aware of them, do a minimal, focus on your strengths because that's what's gonna get you stronger. When we have this mentality of, well, I'm not good at alone time. So I need to spend more time alone so I can get better at it. If I'm not wired that way, I might actually be doing a detriment. That's what I mean by that.
speaker-1: I completely agree. Yes. And to to dissect that a little further, I like using the word dynamic as opposed to balance. Yeah. ⁓ that nurture both sides of of that coin because I do find that if that person who's like, Yeah, I I'm finding I'm only connecting in this way, the reason why I I want to challenge them to explore the alternative isn't okay, you're extroverted and you find that you only get ⁓ faith-based community and connection with God when you're with people. Okay, lock yourself in your room and do and and and and spend time with God and do that. I'm not saying that. Because you're right. You do have to follow that natural bend of that person. If ⁓ I think I even said it last week. There was a guy who he's like, man, my par my my spiritual devotional life is is is is terrible. What do I do? The his professor didn't say lock yourself in your room. He said go find where you connect with God. ⁓ and I think I'm encouraging the person to do that as well. So how what would you say is someone's first step to understanding their preference patterns?
speaker-0: Yeah. one, I I think you have to there's a level of self awareness that comes in where you have to ask the questions. So I used to confuse energy with rest. Mm-hmm. Right. Because I'm I well, if I got energized, that must mean I'm resting because I'm filling up. Yep. But I actually wasn't resting because here's what it did, and especially younger Jason. Younger Jason, I'd get in crowds and And the energy would make me anxious. And then all of a sudden I'd find in myself performing and trying to be the funny guy. Sure. And but I got charged. I got charged up. Yeah, you did. But I actually wasn't learning to rest in the Lord. And so this is why I use the iPhone charger as an example. Yeah. ⁓ now to your point, this is where I actually do think what what you're really saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, is there is a prescription. And the prescription is don't just fall into one pattern. Be willing to explore other things because you might find So for instance, the person who really likes to be alone, they have no community. Guess what? You're built for community. Right. And so just because you have a tendency for that, if you depend on it too much, it now becomes a weakness, not a strength.
speaker-1: And think about what does it do for the community when you use the muscles you exercise in that alone time?
speaker-0: Well, and you actually just gave the perfect example. The goal of rest is not that you can keep on resting. It's so that you can expend energy later. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we're supposed to work we're not supposed to ⁓ rest from our work. We're supposed to work from our rest. So you get energized, you you get you get filled, you get charged, you get rested up, whatever. Yeah. So that you can go into a place and serve. Boom. But what's happened in our culture, and I I I want people to hear this because I think this is really important, we've made it all about me. I feel rested. Sure. I, I, I. But God created you for a we. God created you so that when you have that alone time, you then are meant to be in a community and then you expend the energy. Yeah. But what we do is we focus on it, we're so self-centered in both directions. Like I have learned to be comfortable with alone time. And in fact, I'm I'm now finding that some of my best time with the Lord is just me and the Lord.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: But is the goal just for me to spend time alone with the Lord all the time? No. No, the goal is for me to be in community. And so we have to understand what's the purpose of our rest. Our purpose of our rest is not rest. That's not the the purpose of your rest is not rest. And I I'll think about that statement for a second. Yep. What's the purpose of rest?
speaker-1: Breast for a work.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And some people, and I've been this way, we confuse and think, well, the purpose of rest is for rest's sake. Jesus says this, ⁓ and we talked about this last week. Sabbath was man was not created for Sabbath, but Sabbath for man. Yeah. But man was created to image God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the whole purpose of Sabbath was so that man might image God better. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you have to be in the with the image, though the one your person who you're reflecting. Yeah. So when you if you're an introvert, or let's let's say you actually need alone time, if you're just like I just need to spend time alone, I like alone, and the only thing you keep on hearing is the word I, I, I, I, I, you've already missed the point. Mm-hmm. Because the purpose is not about you. Okay. You are created for something bigger than you. The same is true. And and this is where for me the challenge of learning to be alone was. When I was younger, I actually started consuming the crowd. Yeah, where now I was I was feeding off of them. I was using
speaker-1: kind of turned into the opposite. Yeah.
speaker-0: The energy of the crowd. And I c that's why I said I confused it for rest because I'd get energized, I'd get charged, but I wasn't being charged up the right way. It wasn't actually helping me be better at my the things that God was calling me to. Okay. It just left me energized. Yeah. And so if the goal is I, well, that's part of our culture. We're a very self centered culture. So we even look at rest. This is what I need to rest. And God says, No, I need you to rest so you can be a part of something bigger. Sure. And so even in community, this is also why we're called to rest together. Yeah. Because even if you're charged alone, that's great that you do that. Your Sabbath is actually not meant to be alone. It's meant to be in community.
speaker-1: ⁓ a part of me is curious though. It there is a part of this learning to rest that does start with I but it's that self awareness.
speaker-0: Stay with I. Right. Everything starts with me.
speaker-1: Yeah. 'Cause it's that self awareness piece.
speaker-0: So another way of looking at it is like salvation isn't individual, but it starts with me. Right. Same principle.
speaker-1: So for that person who is sitting here and they're and they're and they're thinking, like, well, I don't even I don't even know where to begin with understanding how I connect with God or how I rest. There are some people who are like, Well, I don't even know if I'm an introvert or an extrovert. Like they haven't thought about that self awareness piece. What would you say is a good step to learning that? Is
speaker-0: That was the question you asked last time when I got us on a rival track. That's okay. well, one, you actually need to take some time and figure it out. Mm-hmm. And and there's the first thing. You need to take time. Mm-hmm. ⁓ it could be alone time, but this is the reflection period where you have to ask the question and and even looking back, like, okay, I get energized by being around crowds, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to rest around a crowd. Sure. That that knowing that could be helpful. Like is it I get more energized Doing a game night than I do just sitting alone somewhere. Sure. Me personally. But now what happens is if all I'm doing is just I need game night because I need energy, I need energy. Well, now I'm a parasite. So learning that and and saying, okay, there is something about me that needs community. Well, then how do I keep Christ at the center of that community so that I'm not just consuming, I'm also there's a reciprocation that takes place. So ⁓ I think one, you ask the question, where do you find yourself when you are least having to perform? Okay.
speaker-1: Where am I getting energy? Where am I not having to perform?
speaker-0: 'Cause performance is not resting. Okay. So yeah.
speaker-1: You're still you're s you're still ig ⁓ trying to exude something. It like any any moment where you're giving, giving, giving and not receiving.
speaker-0: The goal of rest is to receive so that you can give. Yeah. Which as Jesus says in Acts, it says as Jesus said, it's better to give than to receive. Mm-hmm. We're called to give, but we have to receive in order we to give.
speaker-1: We are we are limited vessels. Like we have to go and be filled.
speaker-0: And if you don't, if you don't find out your pattern, so I know some people like they'll say this. ⁓ also sometimes your language is a good indicator of where you connect and you just need listen to yourself. So I've had people like, Man, I just really feel like I connect with God in nature. Mm-hmm. Cool. Go for a walk. Yeah. But then don't turn around and say, I don't really need church because now you've made it about you and you're created for something bigger. Yeah. But also you might be resting But are you resting the way God told you to rest? And part of the way God told you to rest was in community.
speaker-1: So this leads me to another part because the introvert extroversion, how we are charged, how we're filled, kind of only to me seems like one facet of the equation. Yeah. So the other part is what does discipline look like? Because what you've just said is someone is providing us a structure. Yeah. And ⁓ and it's God. Ideally we're listening to that structure. But some people, when it comes to their arrest, are more disciplined, some are more spontaneous. Yep. Some prefer structure, some don't. So where does that also fit into to determining people's rest? And and where does listening to God, where does obedience tie into rest?
speaker-0: ⁓ some things don't need to be prayed out of you, they need to be discipled out of you. Okay.
speaker-1: Dissect that a little bit.
speaker-0: ⁓ so for some people they're keep on saying, Lord do this in me, Lord teach me patience, Lord build this in me. Mm-hmm. And disciple is the root word of discipline. Okay. We don't. We think of discipline as well, I've got these habits. That's right, but they're habits that are shaped by somebody you're following.
speaker-1: I wonder how many people think about that. I was gonna say, I think ⁓ we also forget that the disciple part is a following.
speaker-0: That's right. And so you are following something. Every single one of us are being discipled. And the patterns of this world is okay, so I I was thinking about this this morning and ⁓ And this this kind of hit me this morning in my prayer time. ⁓ you know what the biggest fear what when I was growing up, what we were convinced was gonna be the end of the church. It was sex, drugs and rock and roll. Like that's what was gonna be the end of the church was sex, drugs and rock and roll.
speaker-1: Everyone's ever left home has had their parents say that to them. No
speaker-0: We were but we were convinced that was gonna be the thing that took people away from church. Sure. Then it was ⁓ sexuality. Okay. Like if if the LGBTQ stuff right now, that's gonna be the end of the church hasn't been the end of the church.
speaker-1: So when was it Harry Potter? 'Cause remember that was a I know I know I
speaker-0: Actually was a real thing is that you show right. Then it was entertainment. Entertainment is the end of the church. Yeah. You know what takes people more away from church and their relationship with God? It's the thing that doesn't feel like sin.
speaker-1: Right. Sure. ⁓
speaker-0: So I'm gonna I'm gonna call it out. Yeah, okay. Right. ⁓ the devil's sneaky. Okay. And of course he uses these things to twist Christians and to get Christians to fall away or to mess with them. Mm-hmm. But where I've seen most godly centered people, people who genuinely love Jesus, where I've slowly watched them drift away from disciplining their lives in Christ, sports, hobbies, vacations. Sure. What do all three of those things seem to imply?
speaker-1: ⁓ I my mind goes to a few different answers, I guess. ⁓ I don't know. Rest is one of ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-0: Why do why do you do a hobby? It's a false sense of rest. Sure. I'm going to the golf course. I'm I'm not spending time with the Lord today because I connect with Jesus on the golf course. You're not connecting with Jesus. You're trying to connect with a ball. Literally. Literally. And I've played golf. The only thing you can focus on if you're gonna play golf well is the golf ball. You're not thinking about Jesus at all. Now, but here's the other part. And again, I'm not saying that's bad.
speaker-1: To r rest from What if it's a men's church sports golf league?
speaker-0: But you know what? Then don't do it in the time that's set aside to meet with the Lord. You I'm not saying you can't do those things. Sure. But all of those things are chasing rest. And I've actually watched them as they've moved people away from the Lord, not closer. Okay. ⁓ weekends are busier. Busier now that more people are not involved in a church community because they're involved in a sports community. Okay. That's the new church. Now here's the thing. You're like, ⁓ but Jason, that feels legalistic. Wait, wait. You're you're letting them define rest for you. The pattern of the world says Rest is defined by the world. The world has defined rest through athletics, through entertainment, through the things that make me feel like I'm getting the center of eye, right? And whenever the church does it, ⁓ that's just because you want butts in church. No. It's because when church is done well, it is the place where we actually find connection, community, draw closer to the Lord. And it's commanded by the Lord. You know what the Lord didn't command? The Lord didn't command that you're gone every weekend on a sports trip or on a going on hunting. None of those things are bad. I wanna be clear, but we've mistaken them as patterns of rest because and I'm gonna call it the church here, because the church has not actually shown that the church is restful.
speaker-1: Yes, that is a point I really wanted to make.
speaker-0: That I wanna be clear. That's our failure, not theirs.
speaker-1: No, I know. That's the point I really I ha I have this here is when we when we understand ⁓ when we understand patterns, it di I think that implies that we not only ⁓ understand the patterns of our own self and preferences, but the patterns of culture, the patterns of the world around us, and the patterns of the church, because we are a part of a church body. And I said that. I said, so when we're the church and we're supposed to be the model of the way of Christ, the model of rest. If we're burnt out busybodies ⁓ who can hardly think through our packed schedules, what does that how does it affect those who see our lives? ⁓ and and what to me, what it what it promoted was this sense that anyone who looks at us and sees who might not be a Christian or is a Christian, the person who isn't a Christian sees the this and says, Well, well, how's that any different than all the stress I'm having to deal with? Like, what do you mean, like you guys? got it better and then our fellow brother sees that and says, ⁓ well I can do that. I mean they're doing it.
speaker-0: Well, so and and then what they'll say is this, because I've heard this. Well, that's legalism, Jason. I don't have to go to church to be saved. You don't. ⁓ but if you want to be on a sports team, you gotta go to practice. Right. Right? What we have we have no problem with somebody else setting an agenda. I want to read Romans twelve because this actually applies to everything you just said. Okay. If we're supposed to look different than the world, then why are we letting the world dictate the patterns of how we find rest and what it means to find purpose and calling? So listen, and it's a very popular verse, but this is the part we miss, right? Check this out. Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice. Problem with living sacrifices, they crawl off the table. Holy and pleasing to God, this is your true and proper worship. Notice what he doesn't say. He doesn't say your true proper worship is going to church. He doesn't say your true and proper worship is serving in a ministry, listening to a sermon. Those are all watering things. No, it is living in view of God's mercy. Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice. Every everything in this world is demanding you sacrifice yourself for it. Your job your job demands sacrifice, right? And and so God's saying, This is how you be transformed, right? Do not conform to the pattern of the world, which the pattern of the world, man, we have no problem with rules and regulations. We just don't like it when God gives them. When the world gives them or when something else gives it, we just call it we call it, you know, well that's that's what that's responsibility. Well
speaker-1: Right. Really and this is just back to our previous you know, the kind of ⁓ this the question that ⁓ provoked today's conversation is we will always go back to what we have determined is is the
speaker-0: The default pattern. Yeah. And the default pattern isn't the Holy Spirit.
speaker-1: No. So that's why I I that's why that challenge matters, like that question.
speaker-0: So let me let me read the rest of this because it's this is where the answer is gonna come from. Okay, please. Be transformed, ⁓ to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. You have to think differently. Mm-hmm. You need the mind you need the Holy Spirit. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will. Okay. Okay. Now I I'm gonna give a a quick challenge real quick here. We're gonna be preaching on this in a few months. Sure. Or like a month. Mm-hmm. ⁓
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Everything that demands our life, ⁓ we wanna test and we wanna be able to test and approve what that thing's will is. Okay. Okay. That that's that's anything. Here it's God needs to be the thing that we're seeking to test and approve as well. For by the grace given me, I say to every one of you, do not think of yourself more highly than you ought to. Okay. So the first way that you find rest is stop thinking about yourself. Okay.
speaker-1: Sure. Yep.
speaker-0: But rather think of yourself with sober judgment. You need to be honest about yourself. You need to so, like for instance, if you get overwhelmed and exhausted by being in a crowd, then take some time. But that doesn't mean you get to excuse or dismiss being around people. Okay. ⁓ do this in sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you, the level of faith. Now wait, for just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function. So in Christ, though we many form one body and each member belongs to all the others. So he literally says that if you want to be in God's will, you have to belong to each other.
speaker-1: I love its recognition of the differences as well.
speaker-0: And and so that's understanding everybody's a little different. There are some things that are public facing. There are some things that are in private. Like nobody sees my elbow most time. It's kinda right. My knee pits. You we have different gifts according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy. If it's faith, if it is serving, then serve. If it is teaching, then teach. If it is encouraged, then give encouragement. If it is giving. Notice what he's saying is all of this the the thing that God wants you to do is to to Be a part of the community and exercise what God has given you to serve. Now, I'm going to use the sports little metaphor. People think I hate youth sports. I don't. I actually think youth sports are a wonderful gift. The problem is we've made them ultimate. I don't have a problem with hobbies. The problem is when we've made, we make life decisions around these things. We make family decisions, and then we wonder why our family's stressed out. Now wait, it gets better though. 'Cause this is where I want to get to and and I 'cause it finishes and answers the question. Ready this? Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, cling to what is good, be devoted to one another in love. Mm-hmm. Honor one another above yourself. Mm-hmm. Never be lacking in zeal, but keeping your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord, be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, ⁓ faithful in prayer, share with the Lord's people who are in need, practice hospitality. Now you I'd encourage read the whole thing. But we talk about rest. This is something that this is the mind of Christ. Well, what better way to rest than in the way that God has asked us to? Yeah. And He tells us the best way to rest is get over yourself. Mm-hmm. Stop making it about you. And that doesn't mean you don't have a natural bent. Like if you need alone time, but the number of time that including myself, if the focus is just you, then now all of a sudden that moves from rest to laziness.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: And you can be lazy and still be active.
speaker-1: Okay. Go ahead and tell us a little bit more about that.
speaker-0: People assume laziness means lack of activity. And I would argue laziness means act of fruitfulness or a lack lack of fruitfulness. Because I know individuals who are constantly going, but they're lazy in the sense that they're not actually helping, encouraging, they're not being any of the things. It's all self-centered. Other people are lazy, they just lay around and do nothing. Guess what? They're both accomplishing the same thing. One is just a busybody while doing it.
speaker-1: The lack of fruitfulness. Yeah. This th that verse is such a great tie. I I it really does encompass a lot of what we're talking about in that ⁓ recognition of the individual need needs, you know, ⁓ but also what the individual provides to the whole. ⁓ and then also that all of this is is out of love. Now you said something, you were like, We're always willing to put in the work to organize our our daily patterns around those not fruitful things. Yeah. What would it look like if we started to organize our patterns around these fruitful things? Because I'm gonna tell you something, when you when I when I hear this, people assume that rest isn't also work. So how do we kind of reconcile the work it takes to do this?
speaker-0: Well ⁓ so first we have to be clear. Rest is work. It's a different kind of work. Okay. It's a work in which the goal is so that you can gain more so that you can give more. Okay. There's still work involved. It is work shutting your brain off. Yep. It is work turning off electronics. It is work scheduling a time to have people over for dinner and just being together.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. It's work renewing the patterns of your mind.
speaker-0: And that's the this whole and now here's the other part that ⁓ in Genesis when it it gives those that pattern, that rhythm of six and one. Okay. The reason why that one day off is such a big deal and we miss it because we just don't live in an agrarian culture. Sure. One, ⁓ they didn't have electricity. Okay. So as soon as the lights were off, you typically were done working. Like when the sun went down, you stopped working. That's it. Because you had candles. But again, even flame was a resource. Fire was a resource. We take that for granted. They didn't just have candles readily available. Candles cost money. Even wood, like if you're in a scarce area of wood, what do you burn? So we forget this, like we just take it for granted. Now, what's happened in our culture today is once it's night, I just turn on a light so I can keep on working. Now here's the other part. ⁓ there were natural rhythms that God created that were supposed to be throughout our day. So even our day has periods of rest, longer work, shorter rest, longer rest, shorter work. During the winter, the nights grow ⁓ are quicker or or are get become nights are longer. So you work less in the winter. So you're meant to have more time with family. Sure.
speaker-1: Or longer.
speaker-0: But we don't have that anymore. But now here's the part with the agrarian. When you didn't work on Saturday, which was when the Sabbath was, that meant you weren't picking food. Mm-hmm. That meant you weren't tending to the garden. So you had there was a trust element. Part of resting is trusting God to handle the things that you don't you think you have to handle.
speaker-1: Yeah. And well, is there also a sense to prep for rest?
speaker-0: Well, yeah, so they would prep the night before, Friday night, they would get the house ready so that Saturday as soon as sundown happened, they were rested. But I want you to think about this for a moment. With this these little devices right here. ⁓ you ever get a an email that dings and your first response is I gotta look at the email. I got right. we still have this mentality that if I if I stop, things are gonna get lost. Part of resting is making a conscious decision, which is work.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: To say this can go a day. I I don't need to clean the house today. ⁓ this is why as a staff, I know churches and and I'm gonna tell us if if there are any pastors who are part of churches like this, I'm gonna challenge this mentality. Years ago, I I a church was talking to me and they said, Well, we give one day off a week because that's all the Lord demands. Mm-hmm. Very legalistic, but also they were working fifty hours, fifty five, sixty hours a week.
speaker-1: Yeah. Pre legalist.
speaker-0: And I'm like, okay, so what am I supposed to do on my day off? Well, now I've got to clean my house, I've got to do shopping. So I don't even really get to rest because I only get one day off. There's a reason why we do two days off, is that one of those is meant to be a preparation day. Now, why do we need that? Well, Jesus didn't command that. There wasn't a pre-day before. Well, part of it was because they had those rhythms that as soon as nightfall came, you were done. Sure. Also, you didn't have to have both people working in the ancient world, ⁓ really up until the last twenty, thirty years. ⁓ you had a the the typically the dad would go and work, the mom or the wife would stay Yep, nuclear home and now we're so afraid of that that now that's bad, but it actually caused stress to the system.
speaker-1: Killer home. Or is it a a system that almost doesn't allow for it anymore So that is also kind of it too is like that's like the conforming to the patterns of the world is difficult. It takes a lot of work not to be bound by a structure.
speaker-0: Don't we can't we can't afford it. And sometimes you can't because the truth like let's ⁓ depending on where you live It's not attainable for Lisa and I Right. Like that's the it is so expensive some people like, Well don't live beyond your means but that's
speaker-1: That's unattainable for Caitlin and I. That's why I s I think we're saying it isn't a it is that isn't like ⁓ it has to look one. We're not saying that. ⁓ but we are saying ad ⁓ adjusting is a form of work.
speaker-0: And and sometimes that work is saying no to things. So when people are every second of their day, I just did a video on this that talked about that we've we've taught our kids they can't be bored. Mm-hmm. We're terrified of boredom. Right. And so we've now raised a generation of kids who are anxious because the new anxiety for kids is that if they're bored, something's wrong. Yeah. And we've not taught them that go choose do something to not be bored.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's just that emptiness. Make free.
speaker-0: You instead it's well let me pick up my phone, let me watch YouTube, let me play a video game. I missed the days. Like I grew up in the eighties where you had Saturday morning cartoons. Mm-hmm. And that was the only time you really watched them unless they were a special event. Okay. And so you would every morning, every every kid was essentially in their house till about ten thirty. And that's when the last cartoon was on. And then you would go outside at ten thirty and you'd go play, except when the season was done and like the show season. Yeah.
speaker-1: Sure. Structured.
speaker-0: And then every kid was out basically at sunrise. Yeah. And you would go play, you'd go knock on a door. We don't do that anymore because everything is instantaneous. So we've taught kids they don't we can't they don't know how to be bored because we think boredom is bad. And yet boredom is where the best stuff happens. Yeah. I've learned this as I've gotten older as well. When somebody says how's life? When things are boring, it means there's no stress. Like I love boredom now. Sure. I'm not worried about anything, there's nothing pressing. And so
speaker-1: That sounds wonderful.
speaker-0: Like there's a point in my life when all of a sudden I'm like boring is so nice. ⁓
speaker-1: We're lame. No, I think So the the kind of the la final thought I want us to end on here is is a per a person maybe has just heard this and has heard us say, Great, you want me to do more to So can I wanna I wanna point them to a verse that might tell us that there's an easier way than adding more work onto your plate. There there may be a different way. And I want to get us into Matthew eleven
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ twenty-eight through thirty. This is this is Jesus. And I I want to read just a little beforehand, but the the the the the cream de crap is that is that verse there. So let me start at twenty-five. At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to the little children. Yes, Father, for this it is what you are pleased to do. All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Now here's the verse. Come to me all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. I am not an exegetical expert. But when I try to take some things in context and and as I read them, that first bit why I found it important was it in a way establishes Jesus' authority. Right? It's like, Nope. The Father has given me these things, no one comes to him. And then he gives us a piece to to to to move forward, trusting in him, in that authority. Come to me if you're weary and burdened.
speaker-0: So I'm gonna I'm gonna ⁓ let's take a step back for a second. he actually even with the authority, he then says he's hidden these things from the wise and learned. Mm-hmm. The the reason why he starts there is that the wisdom and learned is the world's wisdom. And the world's wisdom says this. Now you said something earlier, ⁓ like just a a minute ago. ⁓ it's amazing how much you'll gladly choose the work if you think it's worth it. Mm-hmm. So the first thing you need to do is reframe that rest is worth it. Yes. And the way God determined rest is worth it. Until you do that, it's always going to feel legalistic. Right. Because I know people who will gladly, gladly stress themselves out, their families out for something they think is worth it. Right. Even if it costs them financially, emotionally, physically, spiritually. Yep. Second, he says, reveal them to little children. ⁓ for years I was always taught or people would say things like, Because children are innocent. Nope. Has nothing to do with innocence. Okay. Children are dependent. Yeah. And in the ancient world children were considered a burden for the most part, except for your own. Okay. And so ⁓ children bring nothing to the table. Sure. Okay, now let's think about this for a second. Why does he talk about children and then go into his yoke as easy as burden is light? There's that's like connected for a reason. Okay. We go right to his yoke as easy as burden is light, but we miss why he does this first, is that children don't provide for their needs. Who provides for their needs? The parents.
speaker-1: The adults.
speaker-0: And if they're not a parent, if if they don't have parents because their parents died, a family member community. So there's a dependence that take place. Okay. ⁓ now here's the thing. He then says, Yes, father, for this is what you were pleased to do. Jesus is also a child, and he depended on the father to provide. So he's still that dependence. So here's the son asking, trusting the father. Yep. Sabbath is trusting the father. Yes. To provide. Yes.
speaker-1: Community. Yeah.
speaker-0: All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those whom the Son chooses to reveal them. So Jesus is saying, Listen, if you want to know the Father, you need to know me. Yes. Now, how does God reveal Himself? Well, what does He call the Church? The bride of Christ, but it's also His body. So when people say you don't need the Church, then you're literally saying you just need the head of Jesus, not the body of Jesus. Wow. And we have a lot of people who love a bodiless Jesus. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Wow.
speaker-0: They want the groom without the bride. Right.
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, sorry. Just the fact sorry, you said that and it's literally like they just don't live out in embodied faith. It doesn't go out anywhere. That's right.
speaker-0: And in fact, it's and in fact they're dying on the vine. Wow. So it there's a dependence there. And so the reason why he brings us children is there is a dependence that comes when we rest in him. Yeah. Now here's the lie of the world, the devil of all the idols. Idols want you to t want to tell you that if you trust them, they'll give you rest. Just demand more work. Wow. Yep. And they all demand, and I I all idols ultimately demand child sacrifice. Wow.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. And wow, okay. So you're just making these connections in ways that I wouldn't have. That's so cool.
speaker-0: Okay, so now ⁓ let's think about this for a second, 'cause then when he says, Now come to me, he said this a little bit earlier when he said, Come to me, all the little children. Yep. And he's showing them that the children actually have value because they represent something. Children bring nothing to the table, they are completely dependent, has nothing to do with innocence. But also, what's the job of a child?
speaker-1: I don't know, to be loved, I guess. To be a ch Yeah.
speaker-0: Child Be loved like yeah when a child they get to be thirteen, they move into adulthood. That's thirteen was Jewish culture, right? Sure. But children, like the goal of a child is to be loved. It is it is to simply be child let him play. Wow. Now I I was I almost talked to you this morning, I thought it'd be fun to do a conversation on the theology of play. Learning to do that today. ⁓
speaker-1: Okay. Fun. So love this because the what is yeah, that's not asking for work. You're a child of God going to Jesus with the simple
speaker-0: The simple things. But wait, it gets better. Ready for this? He's just talked about child being children. Okay. All who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Okay. Now you're a new dad. Yep. Alison is starting to get at the point where she's getting a little bit more energized, but what does she do when she's pooped? And what greater delight than when she passes out on her dad. Isn't it the best? I have a picture she's laying on me and I was just I was just commiserating with somebody how much I miss those days. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, it's the best. I'm obsessed with it.
speaker-0: Where my literally Indy and Eli would snuggle and this is kind of the idea is that you're weary, it's resting in the Father. But now he says this ⁓ you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Yep. You don't find the rest. That's why I said you keep on looking for rest, you're trying to find rest instead of going to God's patterns of rest. Yes. God will give you rest when you do his patterns. The reason why so many people are tired is they're looking at the world's patterns of rest.
speaker-1: Just to continue that illustration, like Alison can't determine her own patterns of rest right now. No, but ca but yeah, 'cause it means she wouldn't do it. That's right. Caitlin and I determine that pattern of rest and she gets rest. Yep. It looks i i it looks a certain way, but she gets the rest. We provide that rest.
speaker-0: No. And she also has those moments where she doesn't want to go down or she's fighting and you're like No
speaker-1: And who does that hurt? Her, mostly. And me, but I'm not God.
speaker-0: But they cry like right? What do they do? I'm not tired, Lord. And God's like, Just su ⁓ shut up. Go to bed. Take a nap. Now he says this, take my yoke upon you. There's still a yoke.
speaker-1: Yep, there is. And a yoke is a for those It's work.
speaker-0: ⁓ the yoke that they would put around the ox. It was the burden they would carry. Jesus says there's he doesn't say there's no burden. He says the burden is light. And so you you ask ⁓ one of the things we could ⁓ point to is I wonder how many of us are burdening ourselves with yokes that are burning us out that God never called us to, including in ministry.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yep. What are you yoking yourself to?
speaker-0: ⁓ And we yoke ourselves to the wrong things because we think they're gonna provide life 'cause that's what all idols promise. They all overpromise and underdeliver.
speaker-1: Well and that's the thing too is like the yoke and on the oxen was a farming implement. Right. So there's there's there's actually a pr production happening. There's a produce, there's a fruit.
speaker-0: And there's a to be they would also do what's called dual yoking. Yeah. Your job is to be yoked to That's right. So your job is to be yoked to Jesus, not Jesus yoked to you.
speaker-1: Jesus. And that's the stronger ox, right? And that's why this next part stands out to me too. He's take my yoke upon and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart. He Christ is gentle and humble in heart, which means we are also called to be gentle and humble.
speaker-0: And we have to learn it, which is why he says now ⁓ in the in the ancient culture Hebrew, ⁓ Rabbi's teaching was called his yoke. Yeah. So he's saying, You need to learn from me. This is my yoke, and learn from me. We're learning from all the wrong things, myself included. Yep. ⁓ learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. So good. And so I if some of these, like, yes, you need some self-awareness, but ultimately you have to yoke yourself to Christ. Because if the only thing you're if you're worshiping rest, it's like worshipping worship. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's putting faith in faith. Yeah. Like we th these are silly coquialisms or phrases that we've used, but they're true. When you put your rest in rest, you're actually not doing it. The rest is supposed to come in Jesus. Your faith is supposed to be in Jesus. ⁓ your worship is supposed to be in Jesus. So When rest is in rest, you're always going to go to things that ultimately don't give you rest. You confuse the rest because, like, well, again, this is why I go to sports. ⁓ what am I doing on my day off? Well, I'm going golfing. That's cool. Go golfing, but don't confuse that necessarily with rest. Real rest is found in Jesus, where we don't have to strive, where we can rest in the Father's arms because of Jesus. Because Jesus is not the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons and one substance that is mysteriously called God. So Jesus gives us the ability by being yoked to him to rest in the Father. I love that. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Now we've drop the Trinity and boom, mic drop, end of BAM.
speaker-1: Nice. So one area I want us to maybe consider is you ⁓ that what is what does learning from Jesus how do we do that? How do we take his yoke upon us? What were the patterns that Jesus went and rested with the Father? What is that look in my mind my mind, and I could be wrong, goes to practices that some would refer to as the spiritual disciplines. Yes.
speaker-0: ⁓ so one, ⁓ I'm gonna I'm gonna make it an unpopular opinion. Totally fine. we need to stop quoting and Jesus often went away to solitude and lonely places. Okay. ⁓ one, we make it sound like Jesus went every day to go to do solitude and lonely places. Sure. He didn't. Okay. He did it at times. Okay. ⁓ now I'm not saying that those aren't good things, but I hear this all the time. He often withdrew. It didn't say he daily withdrew, it's often withdrew. ⁓ understanding what your body needs and when you need it is critical. ⁓ sometimes we give our body what it doesn't need. And so Jesus understood when he needed to be with the Father, but there were other times Jesus was sitting with the fire with people. So this goes back to stretching yourself, but also learning these patterns. The reason why we create different s spiritual disciplines is so that we have access to them when we need them. Yes. Not so that I'm bound to them every single day.
speaker-1: I like that too because people get turned off by that word discipline in that context.
speaker-0: now if there's let's say there's ten spiritual disciplines I'm supposed to do all ten every single day. I gotta I gotta have my time of I gotta do this. I gotta do this. Like and now all of a sudden it just becomes
speaker-1: Like it's more like the ten spiritual tool belt.
speaker-0: Well, and and this is why when we first started this whole conversation three weeks ago, I said my problem with the liturgical calendar is that we we've now become beholden to the calendar instead of the God of the calendar. Sure.
speaker-1: So don't be beholden to the disciplines, recognizing that they are a
speaker-0: Learn them the right tool at the right time. Yes. And now there are some tools that we're supposed to use every day. Of course. Prayer. Yep. Prayer is meant to be a daily tool.
speaker-1: Like Jesus used these tools. But then what does prayer in look like? There are different I know. So that's why stay tuned for next week's episode. Because I really want us to kind of dive into this. I want to I want us to give people the tool belt without making them beholden to it. ⁓ I don't want to pigeonhole them, ⁓ but I do want to guide them. Yeah. And ⁓ and I think I think this could be a really cool one. So for it.
speaker-0: We totally different podcasts, right? So I'm gonna end with this. Go for it. So we have daily things that God calls us to do every day. We have weekly things, monthly things, then we have seasonal things. Mm-hmm. And then we have things that are supposed to happen literally like every fifty years or every seven years. Sure. But there are when we make everything a daily practice, we get overwhelmed with practices to the point where now we lose our functionality.
speaker-1: Yeah, we're busy spiritual bodies. Yes. Yo, thank you so much. Be sure to follow, subscribe, share on all platforms where you're listening to us, ⁓ and submit your questions as always to podcast at zionclearlake.org. We will see you next week.
speaker-1: And Three, two, one or the number? Yep. Three, two, one.
speaker-0: Word.
speaker-1: Tell me when. Well sometimes you need time. No, I don't need time to do it. Okay. Three, two, one
speaker-0: You go. We're we finished. ⁓ many times.
speaker-1: Three, two, one, two.
speaker-0: Mm.
speaker-1: Three, two, one.
speaker-0: Wait.
speaker-1: Okay, so sing and rhythm. Three, two, one. ⁓ we were so close! Can't say the same word. Rap and song, okay? Three, two, one
speaker-0: Dang What Melody. ⁓
speaker-1: Three, two, one I don't even have a word.
speaker-0: I was gonna wait for you to start it and then I was gonna Hey everyone.
speaker-1: Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Pocket Theology. We hope that our silly games ⁓ of of help you
speaker-0: Top pocket theology. Hot pocket theology.
speaker-1: Man, it is it's fun to sit down and and just joke and but it does get your brain moving. That's the most
speaker-0: Well so we started off as the game of trying to get through and that that kinda got my juices flowing in my brain a little bit. Yeah. My brain my brain's move
speaker-1: It's like those exercises that you know people do before they take the stage. Like they're doing the syllabic exercise.
speaker-0: Did you know monosyllabic isn't monosyllabic?
speaker-1: So, ⁓ we wanted to try to take this time to conclude our conversation on rest. ⁓ and I was particularly taken aback by a statement that you made last week, and I kind of would love to start our conversation there. ⁓ we were talking about how ⁓ patterns of rest are dictated by lots of different things culture, absolutely, values, ⁓ structure, ⁓ either ⁓
speaker-0: All right.
speaker-1: based on our religious preferences or things like that. But but one comment you made was most often people usually flow back to their personal preferences when it comes to rest. ⁓ so as an example, someone who's more comfortable in social spaces, who finds rest in their small groups or in fun activities, They are with God, they're with people, they're learning, they're talking. Maybe another person is more at rest in quiet ⁓ spaces, contemplation, prayer, music, reading, ⁓ with a warm cup of coffee and a blanket kind of situation. Absolutely. and the question I want to start our c our conversation off today is is there a ⁓ w where do preference and challenge meet?
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ first of all it's a great question. ⁓ do you know the difference between extrovert and introvert? Yes.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ an extrovert is someone who finds that they are ⁓ energized or charged up or or ⁓ they're filled by being out with people. And an introvert perhaps needs to be ⁓ have some alone time or or time away or maybe with safe people where they can recharge and and be filled.
speaker-0: So this actually fits the conversation of what what we're talking about. ⁓ a lot of people misunderstand. They think extrovert introvert is whether or not you like people. I know extroverts who don't like people. Sure. They get charged. Yeah. So one way that I've heard it described is some people are solar powered. Some people are battery powered. Yeah. Right? Battery powered are internal. They need time alone. They need those. So we are wired certain ways. And if you don't understand how you're wired, now
speaker-1: Cool.
speaker-0: Now you have this new one called ex ⁓ ambivert. Yeah. Yep, and then there's a new one Otrovert, but I don't remember I I don't remember what that one can you can someone look up what
speaker-1: Where they can flow between the two. How can you have that many distinctives in a binary?
speaker-0: I don't know. Well, 'cause apparently it's not a binary anymore. But there's a new one's called Otrovert and that but I don't know much about it. But so first of all, there's no right or wrong way to connect. The hard part is, and and I think I've said this on here before. messy people love that you're clean. Clean people can't stand that you're messy. Okay. Sure.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Right? Yeah. Loud people don't mind that you're quiet. Quiet people can't stand that you're loud. Okay. So starting to see a theme here. Right. Yep. ⁓ here's what ends up happening is we have a tendency of assuming that my pattern must be yours. Mm-hmm. And then I want to f I want you to fit into who I am. Yeah. Right. And and we do this all the time. Like, ⁓ if somebody loves to read, I I'm this way. I love to read. So what's the first challenge you give? You should sit down and read a book.
speaker-1: Yeah. What is it called? It's ⁓ it's ⁓ conformity bias? Is that what it's called? When you No, I think conformity bias is when you believe like everyone believes what you believe.
speaker-0: Confirmation bias? ⁓ yeah, I don't know what the term for that is. That'd be also did we find out what Otrovert is yet?
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm trying to wrap my head around like ambervert versus outrovert n no, I think the distinction is an ambervert falls in the middle, right? Kind of flows between the two, but an outrovert finds ⁓ energy from one on ones and don't feel the need to be a part of the group or the crowd.
speaker-0: Is it the same thing? Okay, I actually I I actually I think I can define the difference. And again, I'm not done a lot of research. Okay. So what you described as an introvert, uh-huh, as someone who maybe with smaller people, that actually would be an outrovert. It's somebody because an intro a true introvert needs alone time. Sure. Or an outrovert actually needs more one on one. Like right? And and so you could say like from an energy perspective, how they get recharged is one on one. I actually would say I have moved more from Truly extroverted needing big crowds to being more ambiverted or outroverted, if that's the definition of otrovert. We're like this charges me.
speaker-1: Yeah. And I think that's also important for people to recognize that that that changes over time ⁓ potentially.
speaker-0: Well they're they've actually ⁓ a friend of mine who's a very well respected coach in the world, like ha owns a huge coaching organization. I didn't I didn't even know this when I met him. Like literally he's a world renowned coach and I had no clue. Well he's very quiet about it, owns a coaching business. But years ago I told him, I said, I've always been extroverted, but I'm finding the older I get and the more leadership I'm in, the more introverted I'm becoming. He said, Actually the research shows that people who are extroverted The older they get and the more they move into leadership, they move intro introvert. Because for me, my extroversion, this is going to tie into our our conversation here. The reason why I I was extroverted is I loved people, but those people weren't asking anything from me. But when all of a sudden you move into a leadership role, people want things from you. And now when you have a lot of people who want things from you, now they're taking. And that's like that's leadership.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: That's not a victim. Like I'm not a poor me. I've got to lead. No, but when I'm on a Sunday morning, when I'm preaching or when I'm pastoring, people need something from me. So I don't get the charge because the charge is going out. Yeah. I've actually found I enjoy my alone time more, but what really charges me are things like this. Yeah. Now, why does this matter? ⁓ understanding how you're wired is a really key component to understanding how to rest. Now When I made the comment is that we tend to go back to our patterns. Mm-hmm. The danger is, is sometimes we think that I'll use ⁓ the extroverted guy, right? Man, I get I get charged up by being in a group. Yeah. But am I actually still resting? Sure. And yes, I might be getting energized, but am I resting? ⁓ so my phone, it's ⁓ it it it's dying quickly quicker now because I've got more programs running on it, that kind of stuff. Now, I learned the hard way that ⁓ Apple has set it up in such a way that if you don't charge with an Apple cord, it doesn't charge as fast. And if you don't charge with an Apple charger, it won't charge as fast. It'll still charge. Yep, the block and the cord or so.
speaker-1: Okay. You mean like the block in the cord? Is that what you're
speaker-0: In fact, I've even found that there are chords that I'll put in that don't charge because Apple's found a way to make it so they don't ask me how that works. Sure. Now here's where the illustration comes in, right? Okay. Just because extroversion has worked for you to get charged doesn't mean you're actually getting charged the way God intended you to. Same is true for introverts, outrovers, whatever all the different words that we have now. Yeah. ⁓ you can assume that because you're alone, that means you're being charged, but Who who are you alone with? Is it just you and your thoughts? Are you spending time alone with the Lord? Yeah. Are you being intentional in your alone time? Because I know some people the reason why they like to be alone is they just want to energize. Yeah. But the goal of Sabbath is not just energy, it's communion. Yep. And
speaker-1: Before we get too far ahead into that concept, because I do wanna I do wanna hit that. Yeah. My my a part of what I like of what you're saying is ⁓ I I don't think you are saying if you're doing it this way it's entirely wrong. But you're saying a a holistic approach would involve both sides of things.
speaker-0: No. One, I don't even know what I'd say holistic. I w I would say because holistic implies that you always have to have both in order to be whole.
speaker-1: But is it true to say that lacking one part would lead to ⁓ maybe not a f a full n like I don't wanna keep using the word holistic if if that's like the vernacular we're getting hung up on. No, I what what I'm getting at is is When you said the way God might not be intending you to, my mind goes to would that extroverted person benefit from more of the s more solitude practices? Would the introverted person benefit from more community based
speaker-0: Practices. Maybe. And this is why I use the illustration when I first started with is that messy people think it's great that you're clean. Clean people can't always stand that you're messy. Sure. Loud people don't mind that you're quiet. Quiet people struggle with you being loud. Sure. Is that ⁓ if we force something, we we can move into something that actually can be detrimental. And so that's why I want to be careful, is you don't it's not like you always have to have it present. Yes. ⁓ remember are you old enough to remember the food pyramid? Yeah. Okay. ⁓ I w we were always taught growing up like you had grains, well now all of a sudden grains aren't supposed to be a part of the food pyramid anymore. Breads, you had all these things, right? ⁓ there are certain things that you are wired for that are ⁓ not unique to you. They're they're designed by God for all people. So the goal is not how you get them, it's that you get them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because if we focus on the how, well now we move into legalism, which is what the the Pharisees were dealing with, which is The Sabbath, now you can't walk more than 50 steps, right? If you go to Israel on the Sabbath, literally all the buttons on on Saturday are pre-pressed because that's work if you press a button. Yep. So what I would say is I think sometimes it's a good invitation and a good challenge to say, maybe I'm gonna try something and maybe just to push myself out and see what God does. Yeah. But I think we have to be careful to not when we start moving into prescription and saying now you have to do this in order to be balanced. Mm-hmm. Or to be whole or whatever language we want to use. I think we have to ask what is what are the things that God says are necessary for rest? For for true rest. I don't mean recovery, but I mean actual relationship with Him. So here are a few that scripture ⁓ seems to point to. One is some level of meditation. Now I don't mean sitting on a carpet and going, we're not talking that kind of meditation, but reflection. ⁓ if you go back to the Shema, Hero Israel, Lord our God is one, and it tells he then goes on and talks about, you know, meditating. I think that one of the ways that God has designed us is to meditate on him, but also to meditate on his word. And ⁓ that could be as simple as thinking about God's love. Mm-hmm. ⁓ I I posed a question last night at Lisa's small group. And I don't feel like I'm talking out of turn because this was a question I'd ask anybody. Someone asked the question, ⁓ How do I learn to hear God's voice? Mm-hmm. And so I said, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go sit down in your room if you're open for the challenge, bring out a notebook and say, Lord, I want you to tell me everything I need to hear about myself. And then every time you hear something negative, assume it's not the Lord. In fact, when you start hearing positive things that make you feel like, well, that feels weird. Maybe that's exactly where the Lord wants to meet you. Now it doesn't mean that God never says negative things to you, it doesn't call out sin. But how many of us have a hard time hearing things like, Jason, you're loved? Mm-hmm. You're wanted. Jason, I like you. I like your personality, right? Sure. And and here's why I did this exercise.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Because ⁓ a lot of times what we've done in our practices is we focus on what we're lacking instead of what God's already given us. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes. ⁓
speaker-0: Does that make sense does that do you see the connection in the
speaker-1: It does and I think I wanna clarify I I completely agree with everything you're saying and I don't think I was trying to push people into a mold. No, I I do just wanna clarify to that person that I d I and I don't th I don't think I'm outright disagreeing with you, but
speaker-0: No I didn't think you
speaker-1: an exploration of of the opposite, a prescription that isn't a prescription. Cause in a way you almost kind of just gave one. Right? So so I'm I'm not trying to say like, yeah, this person needs pregnisone or this person needs whatever. I think it's this to to understand rest is to understand it it from all sides.
speaker-0: So w so let me let me 'cause I didn't think you were saying that. Let's ⁓ there is a prescription. Mm-hmm. But the prescription is not now you need to get outside of your comfort zone and go do this thing so that you're more well balanced. And that's not what you were saying, but that's what we if we're not careful we can move into is first of all ⁓ okay, another another example, okay? I don't know.
speaker-1: I actually think I disagree with you. I
speaker-0: Well so let me finish my thought. Sure. Okay. ⁓ when it's ⁓ in he in ⁓ Proverbs when it says train a child on the way they shall go, they will not depart. Yeah. Okay. That word train, one of the understandings of that is actually not train them to go a direction, it's look for the natural bent in their life and teach them to go with that bend.
speaker-1: Hm, okay. Yeah. ⁓ yes. Okay. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's what I'm saying is because if and and so like in sp in sports, ⁓ there ⁓ I've often heard you need to train in your weaknesses, you're already strong in something. And all the mo most recent stuff, and I mean I mean like last ten, twenty years, has said the opposite. No, no, no. Don't work on your weaknesses. Like you can be aware of them, do a minimal, focus on your strengths because that's what's gonna get you stronger. When we have this mentality of, well, I'm not good at alone time. So I need to spend more time alone so I can get better at it. If I'm not wired that way, I might actually be doing a detriment. That's what I mean by that.
speaker-1: I completely agree. Yes. And to to dissect that a little further, I like using the word dynamic as opposed to balance. Yeah. ⁓ that nurture both sides of of that coin because I do find that if that person who's like, Yeah, I I'm finding I'm only connecting in this way, the reason why I I want to challenge them to explore the alternative isn't okay, you're extroverted and you find that you only get ⁓ faith-based community and connection with God when you're with people. Okay, lock yourself in your room and do and and and and spend time with God and do that. I'm not saying that. Because you're right. You do have to follow that natural bend of that person. If ⁓ I think I even said it last week. There was a guy who he's like, man, my par my my spiritual devotional life is is is is terrible. What do I do? The his professor didn't say lock yourself in your room. He said go find where you connect with God. ⁓ and I think I'm encouraging the person to do that as well. So how what would you say is someone's first step to understanding their preference patterns?
speaker-0: Yeah. one, I I think you have to there's a level of self awareness that comes in where you have to ask the questions. So I used to confuse energy with rest. Mm-hmm. Right. Because I'm I well, if I got energized, that must mean I'm resting because I'm filling up. Yep. But I actually wasn't resting because here's what it did, and especially younger Jason. Younger Jason, I'd get in crowds and And the energy would make me anxious. And then all of a sudden I'd find in myself performing and trying to be the funny guy. Sure. And but I got charged. I got charged up. Yeah, you did. But I actually wasn't learning to rest in the Lord. And so this is why I use the iPhone charger as an example. Yeah. ⁓ now to your point, this is where I actually do think what what you're really saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, is there is a prescription. And the prescription is don't just fall into one pattern. Be willing to explore other things because you might find So for instance, the person who really likes to be alone, they have no community. Guess what? You're built for community. Right. And so just because you have a tendency for that, if you depend on it too much, it now becomes a weakness, not a strength.
speaker-1: And think about what does it do for the community when you use the muscles you exercise in that alone time?
speaker-0: Well, and you actually just gave the perfect example. The goal of rest is not that you can keep on resting. It's so that you can expend energy later. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we're supposed to work we're not supposed to ⁓ rest from our work. We're supposed to work from our rest. So you get energized, you you get you get filled, you get charged, you get rested up, whatever. Yeah. So that you can go into a place and serve. Boom. But what's happened in our culture, and I I I want people to hear this because I think this is really important, we've made it all about me. I feel rested. Sure. I, I, I. But God created you for a we. God created you so that when you have that alone time, you then are meant to be in a community and then you expend the energy. Yeah. But what we do is we focus on it, we're so self-centered in both directions. Like I have learned to be comfortable with alone time. And in fact, I'm I'm now finding that some of my best time with the Lord is just me and the Lord.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: But is the goal just for me to spend time alone with the Lord all the time? No. No, the goal is for me to be in community. And so we have to understand what's the purpose of our rest. Our purpose of our rest is not rest. That's not the the purpose of your rest is not rest. And I I'll think about that statement for a second. Yep. What's the purpose of rest?
speaker-1: Breast for a work.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And some people, and I've been this way, we confuse and think, well, the purpose of rest is for rest's sake. Jesus says this, ⁓ and we talked about this last week. Sabbath was man was not created for Sabbath, but Sabbath for man. Yeah. But man was created to image God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the whole purpose of Sabbath was so that man might image God better. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you have to be in the with the image, though the one your person who you're reflecting. Yeah. So when you if you're an introvert, or let's let's say you actually need alone time, if you're just like I just need to spend time alone, I like alone, and the only thing you keep on hearing is the word I, I, I, I, I, you've already missed the point. Mm-hmm. Because the purpose is not about you. Okay. You are created for something bigger than you. The same is true. And and this is where for me the challenge of learning to be alone was. When I was younger, I actually started consuming the crowd. Yeah, where now I was I was feeding off of them. I was using
speaker-1: kind of turned into the opposite. Yeah.
speaker-0: The energy of the crowd. And I c that's why I said I confused it for rest because I'd get energized, I'd get charged, but I wasn't being charged up the right way. It wasn't actually helping me be better at my the things that God was calling me to. Okay. It just left me energized. Yeah. And so if the goal is I, well, that's part of our culture. We're a very self centered culture. So we even look at rest. This is what I need to rest. And God says, No, I need you to rest so you can be a part of something bigger. Sure. And so even in community, this is also why we're called to rest together. Yeah. Because even if you're charged alone, that's great that you do that. Your Sabbath is actually not meant to be alone. It's meant to be in community.
speaker-1: ⁓ a part of me is curious though. It there is a part of this learning to rest that does start with I but it's that self awareness.
speaker-0: Stay with I. Right. Everything starts with me.
speaker-1: Yeah. 'Cause it's that self awareness piece.
speaker-0: So another way of looking at it is like salvation isn't individual, but it starts with me. Right. Same principle.
speaker-1: So for that person who is sitting here and they're and they're and they're thinking, like, well, I don't even I don't even know where to begin with understanding how I connect with God or how I rest. There are some people who are like, Well, I don't even know if I'm an introvert or an extrovert. Like they haven't thought about that self awareness piece. What would you say is a good step to learning that? Is
speaker-0: That was the question you asked last time when I got us on a rival track. That's okay. well, one, you actually need to take some time and figure it out. Mm-hmm. And and there's the first thing. You need to take time. Mm-hmm. ⁓ it could be alone time, but this is the reflection period where you have to ask the question and and even looking back, like, okay, I get energized by being around crowds, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to rest around a crowd. Sure. That that knowing that could be helpful. Like is it I get more energized Doing a game night than I do just sitting alone somewhere. Sure. Me personally. But now what happens is if all I'm doing is just I need game night because I need energy, I need energy. Well, now I'm a parasite. So learning that and and saying, okay, there is something about me that needs community. Well, then how do I keep Christ at the center of that community so that I'm not just consuming, I'm also there's a reciprocation that takes place. So ⁓ I think one, you ask the question, where do you find yourself when you are least having to perform? Okay.
speaker-1: Where am I getting energy? Where am I not having to perform?
speaker-0: 'Cause performance is not resting. Okay. So yeah.
speaker-1: You're still you're s you're still ig ⁓ trying to exude something. It like any any moment where you're giving, giving, giving and not receiving.
speaker-0: The goal of rest is to receive so that you can give. Yeah. Which as Jesus says in Acts, it says as Jesus said, it's better to give than to receive. Mm-hmm. We're called to give, but we have to receive in order we to give.
speaker-1: We are we are limited vessels. Like we have to go and be filled.
speaker-0: And if you don't, if you don't find out your pattern, so I know some people like they'll say this. ⁓ also sometimes your language is a good indicator of where you connect and you just need listen to yourself. So I've had people like, Man, I just really feel like I connect with God in nature. Mm-hmm. Cool. Go for a walk. Yeah. But then don't turn around and say, I don't really need church because now you've made it about you and you're created for something bigger. Yeah. But also you might be resting But are you resting the way God told you to rest? And part of the way God told you to rest was in community.
speaker-1: So this leads me to another part because the introvert extroversion, how we are charged, how we're filled, kind of only to me seems like one facet of the equation. Yeah. So the other part is what does discipline look like? Because what you've just said is someone is providing us a structure. Yeah. And ⁓ and it's God. Ideally we're listening to that structure. But some people, when it comes to their arrest, are more disciplined, some are more spontaneous. Yep. Some prefer structure, some don't. So where does that also fit into to determining people's rest? And and where does listening to God, where does obedience tie into rest?
speaker-0: ⁓ some things don't need to be prayed out of you, they need to be discipled out of you. Okay.
speaker-1: Dissect that a little bit.
speaker-0: ⁓ so for some people they're keep on saying, Lord do this in me, Lord teach me patience, Lord build this in me. Mm-hmm. And disciple is the root word of discipline. Okay. We don't. We think of discipline as well, I've got these habits. That's right, but they're habits that are shaped by somebody you're following.
speaker-1: I wonder how many people think about that. I was gonna say, I think ⁓ we also forget that the disciple part is a following.
speaker-0: That's right. And so you are following something. Every single one of us are being discipled. And the patterns of this world is okay, so I I was thinking about this this morning and ⁓ And this this kind of hit me this morning in my prayer time. ⁓ you know what the biggest fear what when I was growing up, what we were convinced was gonna be the end of the church. It was sex, drugs and rock and roll. Like that's what was gonna be the end of the church was sex, drugs and rock and roll.
speaker-1: Everyone's ever left home has had their parents say that to them. No
speaker-0: We were but we were convinced that was gonna be the thing that took people away from church. Sure. Then it was ⁓ sexuality. Okay. Like if if the LGBTQ stuff right now, that's gonna be the end of the church hasn't been the end of the church.
speaker-1: So when was it Harry Potter? 'Cause remember that was a I know I know I
speaker-0: Actually was a real thing is that you show right. Then it was entertainment. Entertainment is the end of the church. Yeah. You know what takes people more away from church and their relationship with God? It's the thing that doesn't feel like sin.
speaker-1: Right. Sure. ⁓
speaker-0: So I'm gonna I'm gonna call it out. Yeah, okay. Right. ⁓ the devil's sneaky. Okay. And of course he uses these things to twist Christians and to get Christians to fall away or to mess with them. Mm-hmm. But where I've seen most godly centered people, people who genuinely love Jesus, where I've slowly watched them drift away from disciplining their lives in Christ, sports, hobbies, vacations. Sure. What do all three of those things seem to imply?
speaker-1: ⁓ I my mind goes to a few different answers, I guess. ⁓ I don't know. Rest is one of ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-0: Why do why do you do a hobby? It's a false sense of rest. Sure. I'm going to the golf course. I'm I'm not spending time with the Lord today because I connect with Jesus on the golf course. You're not connecting with Jesus. You're trying to connect with a ball. Literally. Literally. And I've played golf. The only thing you can focus on if you're gonna play golf well is the golf ball. You're not thinking about Jesus at all. Now, but here's the other part. And again, I'm not saying that's bad.
speaker-1: To r rest from What if it's a men's church sports golf league?
speaker-0: But you know what? Then don't do it in the time that's set aside to meet with the Lord. You I'm not saying you can't do those things. Sure. But all of those things are chasing rest. And I've actually watched them as they've moved people away from the Lord, not closer. Okay. ⁓ weekends are busier. Busier now that more people are not involved in a church community because they're involved in a sports community. Okay. That's the new church. Now here's the thing. You're like, ⁓ but Jason, that feels legalistic. Wait, wait. You're you're letting them define rest for you. The pattern of the world says Rest is defined by the world. The world has defined rest through athletics, through entertainment, through the things that make me feel like I'm getting the center of eye, right? And whenever the church does it, ⁓ that's just because you want butts in church. No. It's because when church is done well, it is the place where we actually find connection, community, draw closer to the Lord. And it's commanded by the Lord. You know what the Lord didn't command? The Lord didn't command that you're gone every weekend on a sports trip or on a going on hunting. None of those things are bad. I wanna be clear, but we've mistaken them as patterns of rest because and I'm gonna call it the church here, because the church has not actually shown that the church is restful.
speaker-1: Yes, that is a point I really wanted to make.
speaker-0: That I wanna be clear. That's our failure, not theirs.
speaker-1: No, I know. That's the point I really I ha I have this here is when we when we understand ⁓ when we understand patterns, it di I think that implies that we not only ⁓ understand the patterns of our own self and preferences, but the patterns of culture, the patterns of the world around us, and the patterns of the church, because we are a part of a church body. And I said that. I said, so when we're the church and we're supposed to be the model of the way of Christ, the model of rest. If we're burnt out busybodies ⁓ who can hardly think through our packed schedules, what does that how does it affect those who see our lives? ⁓ and and what to me, what it what it promoted was this sense that anyone who looks at us and sees who might not be a Christian or is a Christian, the person who isn't a Christian sees the this and says, Well, well, how's that any different than all the stress I'm having to deal with? Like, what do you mean, like you guys? got it better and then our fellow brother sees that and says, ⁓ well I can do that. I mean they're doing it.
speaker-0: Well, so and and then what they'll say is this, because I've heard this. Well, that's legalism, Jason. I don't have to go to church to be saved. You don't. ⁓ but if you want to be on a sports team, you gotta go to practice. Right. Right? What we have we have no problem with somebody else setting an agenda. I want to read Romans twelve because this actually applies to everything you just said. Okay. If we're supposed to look different than the world, then why are we letting the world dictate the patterns of how we find rest and what it means to find purpose and calling? So listen, and it's a very popular verse, but this is the part we miss, right? Check this out. Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice. Problem with living sacrifices, they crawl off the table. Holy and pleasing to God, this is your true and proper worship. Notice what he doesn't say. He doesn't say your true proper worship is going to church. He doesn't say your true and proper worship is serving in a ministry, listening to a sermon. Those are all watering things. No, it is living in view of God's mercy. Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice. Every everything in this world is demanding you sacrifice yourself for it. Your job your job demands sacrifice, right? And and so God's saying, This is how you be transformed, right? Do not conform to the pattern of the world, which the pattern of the world, man, we have no problem with rules and regulations. We just don't like it when God gives them. When the world gives them or when something else gives it, we just call it we call it, you know, well that's that's what that's responsibility. Well
speaker-1: Right. Really and this is just back to our previous you know, the kind of ⁓ this the question that ⁓ provoked today's conversation is we will always go back to what we have determined is is the
speaker-0: The default pattern. Yeah. And the default pattern isn't the Holy Spirit.
speaker-1: No. So that's why I I that's why that challenge matters, like that question.
speaker-0: So let me let me read the rest of this because it's this is where the answer is gonna come from. Okay, please. Be transformed, ⁓ to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. You have to think differently. Mm-hmm. You need the mind you need the Holy Spirit. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will. Okay. Okay. Now I I'm gonna give a a quick challenge real quick here. We're gonna be preaching on this in a few months. Sure. Or like a month. Mm-hmm. ⁓
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Everything that demands our life, ⁓ we wanna test and we wanna be able to test and approve what that thing's will is. Okay. Okay. That that's that's anything. Here it's God needs to be the thing that we're seeking to test and approve as well. For by the grace given me, I say to every one of you, do not think of yourself more highly than you ought to. Okay. So the first way that you find rest is stop thinking about yourself. Okay.
speaker-1: Sure. Yep.
speaker-0: But rather think of yourself with sober judgment. You need to be honest about yourself. You need to so, like for instance, if you get overwhelmed and exhausted by being in a crowd, then take some time. But that doesn't mean you get to excuse or dismiss being around people. Okay. ⁓ do this in sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you, the level of faith. Now wait, for just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function. So in Christ, though we many form one body and each member belongs to all the others. So he literally says that if you want to be in God's will, you have to belong to each other.
speaker-1: I love its recognition of the differences as well.
speaker-0: And and so that's understanding everybody's a little different. There are some things that are public facing. There are some things that are in private. Like nobody sees my elbow most time. It's kinda right. My knee pits. You we have different gifts according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy. If it's faith, if it is serving, then serve. If it is teaching, then teach. If it is encouraged, then give encouragement. If it is giving. Notice what he's saying is all of this the the thing that God wants you to do is to to Be a part of the community and exercise what God has given you to serve. Now, I'm going to use the sports little metaphor. People think I hate youth sports. I don't. I actually think youth sports are a wonderful gift. The problem is we've made them ultimate. I don't have a problem with hobbies. The problem is when we've made, we make life decisions around these things. We make family decisions, and then we wonder why our family's stressed out. Now wait, it gets better though. 'Cause this is where I want to get to and and I 'cause it finishes and answers the question. Ready this? Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, cling to what is good, be devoted to one another in love. Mm-hmm. Honor one another above yourself. Mm-hmm. Never be lacking in zeal, but keeping your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord, be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, ⁓ faithful in prayer, share with the Lord's people who are in need, practice hospitality. Now you I'd encourage read the whole thing. But we talk about rest. This is something that this is the mind of Christ. Well, what better way to rest than in the way that God has asked us to? Yeah. And He tells us the best way to rest is get over yourself. Mm-hmm. Stop making it about you. And that doesn't mean you don't have a natural bent. Like if you need alone time, but the number of time that including myself, if the focus is just you, then now all of a sudden that moves from rest to laziness.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: And you can be lazy and still be active.
speaker-1: Okay. Go ahead and tell us a little bit more about that.
speaker-0: People assume laziness means lack of activity. And I would argue laziness means act of fruitfulness or a lack lack of fruitfulness. Because I know individuals who are constantly going, but they're lazy in the sense that they're not actually helping, encouraging, they're not being any of the things. It's all self-centered. Other people are lazy, they just lay around and do nothing. Guess what? They're both accomplishing the same thing. One is just a busybody while doing it.
speaker-1: The lack of fruitfulness. Yeah. This th that verse is such a great tie. I I it really does encompass a lot of what we're talking about in that ⁓ recognition of the individual need needs, you know, ⁓ but also what the individual provides to the whole. ⁓ and then also that all of this is is out of love. Now you said something, you were like, We're always willing to put in the work to organize our our daily patterns around those not fruitful things. Yeah. What would it look like if we started to organize our patterns around these fruitful things? Because I'm gonna tell you something, when you when I when I hear this, people assume that rest isn't also work. So how do we kind of reconcile the work it takes to do this?
speaker-0: Well ⁓ so first we have to be clear. Rest is work. It's a different kind of work. Okay. It's a work in which the goal is so that you can gain more so that you can give more. Okay. There's still work involved. It is work shutting your brain off. Yep. It is work turning off electronics. It is work scheduling a time to have people over for dinner and just being together.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. It's work renewing the patterns of your mind.
speaker-0: And that's the this whole and now here's the other part that ⁓ in Genesis when it it gives those that pattern, that rhythm of six and one. Okay. The reason why that one day off is such a big deal and we miss it because we just don't live in an agrarian culture. Sure. One, ⁓ they didn't have electricity. Okay. So as soon as the lights were off, you typically were done working. Like when the sun went down, you stopped working. That's it. Because you had candles. But again, even flame was a resource. Fire was a resource. We take that for granted. They didn't just have candles readily available. Candles cost money. Even wood, like if you're in a scarce area of wood, what do you burn? So we forget this, like we just take it for granted. Now, what's happened in our culture today is once it's night, I just turn on a light so I can keep on working. Now here's the other part. ⁓ there were natural rhythms that God created that were supposed to be throughout our day. So even our day has periods of rest, longer work, shorter rest, longer rest, shorter work. During the winter, the nights grow ⁓ are quicker or or are get become nights are longer. So you work less in the winter. So you're meant to have more time with family. Sure.
speaker-1: Or longer.
speaker-0: But we don't have that anymore. But now here's the part with the agrarian. When you didn't work on Saturday, which was when the Sabbath was, that meant you weren't picking food. Mm-hmm. That meant you weren't tending to the garden. So you had there was a trust element. Part of resting is trusting God to handle the things that you don't you think you have to handle.
speaker-1: Yeah. And well, is there also a sense to prep for rest?
speaker-0: Well, yeah, so they would prep the night before, Friday night, they would get the house ready so that Saturday as soon as sundown happened, they were rested. But I want you to think about this for a moment. With this these little devices right here. ⁓ you ever get a an email that dings and your first response is I gotta look at the email. I got right. we still have this mentality that if I if I stop, things are gonna get lost. Part of resting is making a conscious decision, which is work.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: To say this can go a day. I I don't need to clean the house today. ⁓ this is why as a staff, I know churches and and I'm gonna tell us if if there are any pastors who are part of churches like this, I'm gonna challenge this mentality. Years ago, I I a church was talking to me and they said, Well, we give one day off a week because that's all the Lord demands. Mm-hmm. Very legalistic, but also they were working fifty hours, fifty five, sixty hours a week.
speaker-1: Yeah. Pre legalist.
speaker-0: And I'm like, okay, so what am I supposed to do on my day off? Well, now I've got to clean my house, I've got to do shopping. So I don't even really get to rest because I only get one day off. There's a reason why we do two days off, is that one of those is meant to be a preparation day. Now, why do we need that? Well, Jesus didn't command that. There wasn't a pre-day before. Well, part of it was because they had those rhythms that as soon as nightfall came, you were done. Sure. Also, you didn't have to have both people working in the ancient world, ⁓ really up until the last twenty, thirty years. ⁓ you had a the the typically the dad would go and work, the mom or the wife would stay Yep, nuclear home and now we're so afraid of that that now that's bad, but it actually caused stress to the system.
speaker-1: Killer home. Or is it a a system that almost doesn't allow for it anymore So that is also kind of it too is like that's like the conforming to the patterns of the world is difficult. It takes a lot of work not to be bound by a structure.
speaker-0: Don't we can't we can't afford it. And sometimes you can't because the truth like let's ⁓ depending on where you live It's not attainable for Lisa and I Right. Like that's the it is so expensive some people like, Well don't live beyond your means but that's
speaker-1: That's unattainable for Caitlin and I. That's why I s I think we're saying it isn't a it is that isn't like ⁓ it has to look one. We're not saying that. ⁓ but we are saying ad ⁓ adjusting is a form of work.
speaker-0: And and sometimes that work is saying no to things. So when people are every second of their day, I just did a video on this that talked about that we've we've taught our kids they can't be bored. Mm-hmm. We're terrified of boredom. Right. And so we've now raised a generation of kids who are anxious because the new anxiety for kids is that if they're bored, something's wrong. Yeah. And we've not taught them that go choose do something to not be bored.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's just that emptiness. Make free.
speaker-0: You instead it's well let me pick up my phone, let me watch YouTube, let me play a video game. I missed the days. Like I grew up in the eighties where you had Saturday morning cartoons. Mm-hmm. And that was the only time you really watched them unless they were a special event. Okay. And so you would every morning, every every kid was essentially in their house till about ten thirty. And that's when the last cartoon was on. And then you would go outside at ten thirty and you'd go play, except when the season was done and like the show season. Yeah.
speaker-1: Sure. Structured.
speaker-0: And then every kid was out basically at sunrise. Yeah. And you would go play, you'd go knock on a door. We don't do that anymore because everything is instantaneous. So we've taught kids they don't we can't they don't know how to be bored because we think boredom is bad. And yet boredom is where the best stuff happens. Yeah. I've learned this as I've gotten older as well. When somebody says how's life? When things are boring, it means there's no stress. Like I love boredom now. Sure. I'm not worried about anything, there's nothing pressing. And so
speaker-1: That sounds wonderful.
speaker-0: Like there's a point in my life when all of a sudden I'm like boring is so nice. ⁓
speaker-1: We're lame. No, I think So the the kind of the la final thought I want us to end on here is is a per a person maybe has just heard this and has heard us say, Great, you want me to do more to So can I wanna I wanna point them to a verse that might tell us that there's an easier way than adding more work onto your plate. There there may be a different way. And I want to get us into Matthew eleven
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ twenty-eight through thirty. This is this is Jesus. And I I want to read just a little beforehand, but the the the the the cream de crap is that is that verse there. So let me start at twenty-five. At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to the little children. Yes, Father, for this it is what you are pleased to do. All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Now here's the verse. Come to me all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. I am not an exegetical expert. But when I try to take some things in context and and as I read them, that first bit why I found it important was it in a way establishes Jesus' authority. Right? It's like, Nope. The Father has given me these things, no one comes to him. And then he gives us a piece to to to to move forward, trusting in him, in that authority. Come to me if you're weary and burdened.
speaker-0: So I'm gonna I'm gonna ⁓ let's take a step back for a second. he actually even with the authority, he then says he's hidden these things from the wise and learned. Mm-hmm. The the reason why he starts there is that the wisdom and learned is the world's wisdom. And the world's wisdom says this. Now you said something earlier, ⁓ like just a a minute ago. ⁓ it's amazing how much you'll gladly choose the work if you think it's worth it. Mm-hmm. So the first thing you need to do is reframe that rest is worth it. Yes. And the way God determined rest is worth it. Until you do that, it's always going to feel legalistic. Right. Because I know people who will gladly, gladly stress themselves out, their families out for something they think is worth it. Right. Even if it costs them financially, emotionally, physically, spiritually. Yep. Second, he says, reveal them to little children. ⁓ for years I was always taught or people would say things like, Because children are innocent. Nope. Has nothing to do with innocence. Okay. Children are dependent. Yeah. And in the ancient world children were considered a burden for the most part, except for your own. Okay. And so ⁓ children bring nothing to the table. Sure. Okay, now let's think about this for a second. Why does he talk about children and then go into his yoke as easy as burden is light? There's that's like connected for a reason. Okay. We go right to his yoke as easy as burden is light, but we miss why he does this first, is that children don't provide for their needs. Who provides for their needs? The parents.
speaker-1: The adults.
speaker-0: And if they're not a parent, if if they don't have parents because their parents died, a family member community. So there's a dependence that take place. Okay. ⁓ now here's the thing. He then says, Yes, father, for this is what you were pleased to do. Jesus is also a child, and he depended on the father to provide. So he's still that dependence. So here's the son asking, trusting the father. Yep. Sabbath is trusting the father. Yes. To provide. Yes.
speaker-1: Community. Yeah.
speaker-0: All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those whom the Son chooses to reveal them. So Jesus is saying, Listen, if you want to know the Father, you need to know me. Yes. Now, how does God reveal Himself? Well, what does He call the Church? The bride of Christ, but it's also His body. So when people say you don't need the Church, then you're literally saying you just need the head of Jesus, not the body of Jesus. Wow. And we have a lot of people who love a bodiless Jesus. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Wow.
speaker-0: They want the groom without the bride. Right.
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, sorry. Just the fact sorry, you said that and it's literally like they just don't live out in embodied faith. It doesn't go out anywhere. That's right.
speaker-0: And in fact, it's and in fact they're dying on the vine. Wow. So it there's a dependence there. And so the reason why he brings us children is there is a dependence that comes when we rest in him. Yeah. Now here's the lie of the world, the devil of all the idols. Idols want you to t want to tell you that if you trust them, they'll give you rest. Just demand more work. Wow. Yep. And they all demand, and I I all idols ultimately demand child sacrifice. Wow.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. And wow, okay. So you're just making these connections in ways that I wouldn't have. That's so cool.
speaker-0: Okay, so now ⁓ let's think about this for a second, 'cause then when he says, Now come to me, he said this a little bit earlier when he said, Come to me, all the little children. Yep. And he's showing them that the children actually have value because they represent something. Children bring nothing to the table, they are completely dependent, has nothing to do with innocence. But also, what's the job of a child?
speaker-1: I don't know, to be loved, I guess. To be a ch Yeah.
speaker-0: Child Be loved like yeah when a child they get to be thirteen, they move into adulthood. That's thirteen was Jewish culture, right? Sure. But children, like the goal of a child is to be loved. It is it is to simply be child let him play. Wow. Now I I was I almost talked to you this morning, I thought it'd be fun to do a conversation on the theology of play. Learning to do that today. ⁓
speaker-1: Okay. Fun. So love this because the what is yeah, that's not asking for work. You're a child of God going to Jesus with the simple
speaker-0: The simple things. But wait, it gets better. Ready for this? He's just talked about child being children. Okay. All who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Okay. Now you're a new dad. Yep. Alison is starting to get at the point where she's getting a little bit more energized, but what does she do when she's pooped? And what greater delight than when she passes out on her dad. Isn't it the best? I have a picture she's laying on me and I was just I was just commiserating with somebody how much I miss those days. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, it's the best. I'm obsessed with it.
speaker-0: Where my literally Indy and Eli would snuggle and this is kind of the idea is that you're weary, it's resting in the Father. But now he says this ⁓ you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Yep. You don't find the rest. That's why I said you keep on looking for rest, you're trying to find rest instead of going to God's patterns of rest. Yes. God will give you rest when you do his patterns. The reason why so many people are tired is they're looking at the world's patterns of rest.
speaker-1: Just to continue that illustration, like Alison can't determine her own patterns of rest right now. No, but ca but yeah, 'cause it means she wouldn't do it. That's right. Caitlin and I determine that pattern of rest and she gets rest. Yep. It looks i i it looks a certain way, but she gets the rest. We provide that rest.
speaker-0: No. And she also has those moments where she doesn't want to go down or she's fighting and you're like No
speaker-1: And who does that hurt? Her, mostly. And me, but I'm not God.
speaker-0: But they cry like right? What do they do? I'm not tired, Lord. And God's like, Just su ⁓ shut up. Go to bed. Take a nap. Now he says this, take my yoke upon you. There's still a yoke.
speaker-1: Yep, there is. And a yoke is a for those It's work.
speaker-0: ⁓ the yoke that they would put around the ox. It was the burden they would carry. Jesus says there's he doesn't say there's no burden. He says the burden is light. And so you you ask ⁓ one of the things we could ⁓ point to is I wonder how many of us are burdening ourselves with yokes that are burning us out that God never called us to, including in ministry.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yep. What are you yoking yourself to?
speaker-0: ⁓ And we yoke ourselves to the wrong things because we think they're gonna provide life 'cause that's what all idols promise. They all overpromise and underdeliver.
speaker-1: Well and that's the thing too is like the yoke and on the oxen was a farming implement. Right. So there's there's there's actually a pr production happening. There's a produce, there's a fruit.
speaker-0: And there's a to be they would also do what's called dual yoking. Yeah. Your job is to be yoked to That's right. So your job is to be yoked to Jesus, not Jesus yoked to you.
speaker-1: Jesus. And that's the stronger ox, right? And that's why this next part stands out to me too. He's take my yoke upon and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart. He Christ is gentle and humble in heart, which means we are also called to be gentle and humble.
speaker-0: And we have to learn it, which is why he says now ⁓ in the in the ancient culture Hebrew, ⁓ Rabbi's teaching was called his yoke. Yeah. So he's saying, You need to learn from me. This is my yoke, and learn from me. We're learning from all the wrong things, myself included. Yep. ⁓ learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. So good. And so I if some of these, like, yes, you need some self-awareness, but ultimately you have to yoke yourself to Christ. Because if the only thing you're if you're worshiping rest, it's like worshipping worship. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's putting faith in faith. Yeah. Like we th these are silly coquialisms or phrases that we've used, but they're true. When you put your rest in rest, you're actually not doing it. The rest is supposed to come in Jesus. Your faith is supposed to be in Jesus. ⁓ your worship is supposed to be in Jesus. So When rest is in rest, you're always going to go to things that ultimately don't give you rest. You confuse the rest because, like, well, again, this is why I go to sports. ⁓ what am I doing on my day off? Well, I'm going golfing. That's cool. Go golfing, but don't confuse that necessarily with rest. Real rest is found in Jesus, where we don't have to strive, where we can rest in the Father's arms because of Jesus. Because Jesus is not the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons and one substance that is mysteriously called God. So Jesus gives us the ability by being yoked to him to rest in the Father. I love that. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Now we've drop the Trinity and boom, mic drop, end of BAM.
speaker-1: Nice. So one area I want us to maybe consider is you ⁓ that what is what does learning from Jesus how do we do that? How do we take his yoke upon us? What were the patterns that Jesus went and rested with the Father? What is that look in my mind my mind, and I could be wrong, goes to practices that some would refer to as the spiritual disciplines. Yes.
speaker-0: ⁓ so one, ⁓ I'm gonna I'm gonna make it an unpopular opinion. Totally fine. we need to stop quoting and Jesus often went away to solitude and lonely places. Okay. ⁓ one, we make it sound like Jesus went every day to go to do solitude and lonely places. Sure. He didn't. Okay. He did it at times. Okay. ⁓ now I'm not saying that those aren't good things, but I hear this all the time. He often withdrew. It didn't say he daily withdrew, it's often withdrew. ⁓ understanding what your body needs and when you need it is critical. ⁓ sometimes we give our body what it doesn't need. And so Jesus understood when he needed to be with the Father, but there were other times Jesus was sitting with the fire with people. So this goes back to stretching yourself, but also learning these patterns. The reason why we create different s spiritual disciplines is so that we have access to them when we need them. Yes. Not so that I'm bound to them every single day.
speaker-1: I like that too because people get turned off by that word discipline in that context.
speaker-0: now if there's let's say there's ten spiritual disciplines I'm supposed to do all ten every single day. I gotta I gotta have my time of I gotta do this. I gotta do this. Like and now all of a sudden it just becomes
speaker-1: Like it's more like the ten spiritual tool belt.
speaker-0: Well, and and this is why when we first started this whole conversation three weeks ago, I said my problem with the liturgical calendar is that we we've now become beholden to the calendar instead of the God of the calendar. Sure.
speaker-1: So don't be beholden to the disciplines, recognizing that they are a
speaker-0: Learn them the right tool at the right time. Yes. And now there are some tools that we're supposed to use every day. Of course. Prayer. Yep. Prayer is meant to be a daily tool.
speaker-1: Like Jesus used these tools. But then what does prayer in look like? There are different I know. So that's why stay tuned for next week's episode. Because I really want us to kind of dive into this. I want to I want us to give people the tool belt without making them beholden to it. ⁓ I don't want to pigeonhole them, ⁓ but I do want to guide them. Yeah. And ⁓ and I think I think this could be a really cool one. So for it.
speaker-0: We totally different podcasts, right? So I'm gonna end with this. Go for it. So we have daily things that God calls us to do every day. We have weekly things, monthly things, then we have seasonal things. Mm-hmm. And then we have things that are supposed to happen literally like every fifty years or every seven years. Sure. But there are when we make everything a daily practice, we get overwhelmed with practices to the point where now we lose our functionality.
speaker-1: Yeah, we're busy spiritual bodies. Yes. Yo, thank you so much. Be sure to follow, subscribe, share on all platforms where you're listening to us, ⁓ and submit your questions as always to podcast at zionclearlake.org. We will see you next week.
