speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ So I just got back from a trip that I've this is my fifth year at a thing called the refuge, which is it's just an opportunity to respite with a bunch of other leaders, men in this case. They have a women's trip too. Yeah. And we fly fish, ⁓ I gotta tell you, man, the the the the staff at the refuge, young most of them are in their twenties.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Some of the most quality people I've ever met. ⁓ but I've been, I I was blessed to go to this place called the refuge. It's invitation only. So you can't just sign up. And once you're in, you can go the rest of your life once you're invited. But it's designed not just for pastors, but people in, you know, leadership life, that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. ⁓ And one of the things that I've appreciated about the refuge is that the whole point of it is it's not a there's it's not a seminar, there's no conference, there's no classes, it's not a it's not even a really a retreat in that in that sense. ⁓ you get to hang out and you do whatever you need to do to get rest. And the only time they have is what's called table time, which is you sit around a table and there's a basically the question is what could take you out of the game? And then there's five areas.
speaker-1: Like what could end your leadership?
speaker-0: Yep, or yeah. What could end your leadership, what could end your ministry, your job, your marriage, like wow. And so like, and then there are five areas that we talk about. And so I've been so grateful ⁓ for the refuge over the last five ⁓ four years, but five refuges. And so it got me thinking as we were coming this morning, man, I thought it'd be great to talk about rest. And the truth is, I struggle with rest.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I think if anyone's being really honest with themselves in today's day and age, most of us do.
speaker-0: Yeah. Well and and I think some of it is like we have this high praise for busyness. ⁓ yeah. So I'm like for instance when how you doing? What's the most response? Everybody's busy. Every and you know what one of the my biggest issues with this, and I said this to somebody once, because they were the way they said it was almost like a you should be lucky that we're talking because I'm really busy. Woof.
speaker-1: Busy. Busy. Busy as usual.
speaker-0: And because I asked him how you know how we're doing and and he was like, Yeah, I'm just really busy, man. I'm gonna squeeze out some time for you. And I said, ⁓ so you don't you don't think I'm busy? And I think that's when when people use that language of I'm busy, it's the implication that nobody else is. Because I mean, think about that, like even having that conversation, there are some people and now I know some people who are legitimately like when when I say busy, I mean they're working sixty, seventy hour weeks.
speaker-1: Well I think that's also something culturally we've defined as busy is just our work. Right. So so because I think any person who is a parent would consider themselves busy because it just is busy work taking care of kids. Well and
speaker-0: Okay, so what does the word busy mean? Right. And I and that's so I I was even as we're talking, and I look it up. I when I I mean we have the word business, which we know busy comes business and busy connected in the same word. But it is a word that we throw around and it's often used as a badge of honor. And so, like for instance, we praise a high work ethic. Mm-hmm. Do we praise a high rest ethic? Why?
speaker-1: Well, I mean if the positive inclination is busy equals good, well then not busy is bad. If you're ⁓ a lot of people attach rest to laziness. Yeah. Or or ⁓ maybe not ⁓ what's the word? Amititious or productive. Yeah. Not a go get
speaker-0: Better and and so and and I'll ⁓ one of the things that ⁓ churches are notorious for and and it's it's something that like at Zion we've we've really ⁓ as far as my leadership, I've really tried to change a culture thing. So if the church is supposed to look like the kingdom of God in the world, heaven is not going to be busy. It's gonna be intentional. There's going to be work, but it's not going to be busy. Yeah. And so did you find a definition of busy?
speaker-1: And there's going to be work. Yeah, busy just means someone actively engaged in work or a task.
speaker-0: And and I I what I would say is I think that let's look at the the implications of busyness. Mm-hmm. Because the truth is, is while that's what it is, I think there there's far more meaning to when we say busy. I think usually busy means hurried. Like I'm constantly on the go. I don't have a time to think. I'm just all there's always something. There's a freneticness to busyness. Yeah. Right? Because business and busyness, the why is what changes it. Mm-hmm. Did you catch that?
speaker-1: Say it one more time.
speaker-0: Busyness and business, the why is what changes it. Literally from the letter why, but the question of why. And an example of this is that in business, business does not have to be busyness. No. And I think it has to do with the motivation of what you're trying to accomplish. So ⁓ so for instance, when we look at business, dude, we have bus we have the business of God that we're called to. It's the things, the tasks, responsibility, the business of rest. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Why? Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a real thing. Business is an intentionality, a purpose, it's a work. Busyness as when I think we're t we're t we're searching for something by filling our time and I think we're trying to find value in our business. And I'm just I mean I'm just spitballing. Like I've not thought about that. But I mean
speaker-1: I'm with it. The other part of it too is a lot of us feel like we need to justify our rest too. So if we're not busy enough, well then the rest is the reward wasn't earned. Yep. So that's it too. And I
speaker-0: I wonder if busyness, the why of busyness versus business is trying to justify or define validation or value and worth. Because the the no one no one actually uses business as a badge of honor, but busyness is one of those things that it's like a card we play. I'm busy.
speaker-1: What you're saying is you believe that that busyness, we're attaching it to worth, to value, to ⁓ status. Absolutely. I mean Let's let's take our
speaker-0: Hold on, do we need to go back to that busyness or did you catch that? The busyness, business. Okay. Sorry, yeah. No, it's okay, go back. ⁓ so I think the difference between business and busyness is the why. And yes, I I I get the word play. ⁓ but I think busyness is about trying to find your worth or your value. And whereas business is a task, it's a responsibility, it's a job, whatever. But busyness, we use it like a badge of honor. ⁓
speaker-1: It it it it's how yeah, worth value status is one hundred percent busyness. I mean, we think of like culturally right now, a big name that pops into people's head and they think success is a guy, Elon Musk. Yeah. And and and if you know even a shred of his like follow him in any capacity, he's like the busiest guy ever. Yeah. And so yes, his acclaim to fame and his status and his worth. worth is attached to how much he's accomplishing and how much he's doing, society would say yes.
speaker-0: And and church wise, I think we've fallen prey to that mentality. ⁓ so I I knew a church and I will not say names ⁓ Excuse me. I knew a church that literally told its staff the Lord worked six days and only needed one day off. That's all you need. Sure. And so staff were expected to work six days a week, not forty hours, eight to ten hour days, six days a week, because they got a day off. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Hundred percent.
speaker-0: And I'm like, well, did you also did you get festivals then because the Lord implemented festivals and new moons and and all the all the feasts? Did you did you no? It was literally they took God's word and they used it to basically because the goal was productivity. And here's the question that I've been over the years, I've thought through this. This isn't a new thing for me. ⁓ if church is supposed to be a reflection of the kingdom of God, what does it say? When the people who are leading in the church are stressed out and burnt out because they're busy, that doesn't mean they don't work and it doesn't mean they don't work hard. It doesn't mean they're not productive. But when their value is based upon their productivity, bless you. Every time she sneezes, it's like if I sneezed, we'd we'd be blowing speakers, like we knew new microphones or headphones or something. ⁓ But I I I wonder how much of that is like within our own Christian culture. Because here's the thing, like volunteers, you know, the the truth is our job as staff is not to do the work. Our job as staff is to equip people to do the work of ministry. That is our primary work. Now, that doesn't mean we don't have work to do, but church is a volunteer or and we like to use the word investment. ⁓ it's serving in the kingdom, it's serving in the church, serving in the community, right? And I've met pastors and churches, and and again, this is where I get it gets sticky. I know churches that do this. Well, you work 40 hours and then you volunteer 10 to 15 hours because that's what the average person in your church does. They they work a job and then they volunteer. So we're gonna pay you for 40, but we expect 50 to 60 because that's what everybody else does. And the problem that I have with that mentality, ⁓ is one you don't have a choice. Because when we look at a church, I want we want people to serve in our ministries, right? And I recognizing they're sacrificing. Like we have people who work hard jobs and then they come and serve in a church. Sometimes it's for an hour a week, sometimes it's 10, sometimes 15 hours a week, but they have a choice. But when you have a staff member, when you do it as a church and you say, Well, no, now you you are required to volunteer, there's no choice in there. And I wonder what that does psychologically to somebody when you require volunteerism as a way of getting extra work. Now, I'm there's a reason why I want to go into this, and it's not just to call out church culture, because I think church can get we can get really funky in how we handle things. ⁓ but I also I like how do we how do we How do we help people find rest and recognizing that when you're doing the things that God has called you to, what's what's the old adage? If you do what you love, it never feels like a day of work in your life.
speaker-1: Yeah, that was that was kind of what I was ⁓ thinking about as I was listening to you is a lot of the this this viewpoint that you're expressing is is all viewed through like the negative lens. Like this stuff has to be so like has to take, take, take. Yep. Where I know ⁓ one of my volunteers who they could ⁓ they're on the worship team, they could do it every single night. And they wouldn't bat an eye because it fills their cup and and they love to fill others' cups. So it isn't just a self serving thing like, ⁓ I just want this and it I love it. Like they see the value. And and so I think part of it too is a mentality switch. It's like, is it all just take like especi you know?
speaker-0: Well and here's where I wanted to go with this, because church isn't the only one that demands this. Of course. And in fact, I watch individuals and I'm I'm just gonna call it out. I've watched as parents who will gladly volunteer and pay extra to do youth sports because they find value in it. Mm hmm. And sometimes they're putting way more than an hour or two. We're talking fifteen. It's a part time job. And they're paying to do it. Yeah. And and so here's here's a couple of things that I wanna talk about. One, and then I don't wanna I'm not trying to bring shame on that. I I wanna what is it about the youth sports or about doing something that you love to do, but then when it comes to church it's there's a boundary put in place and here's my suspicion. Mm-hmm. Okay, and this is where I I think we wan I wanna get into it. is I think for some people, not all, I think they see volunteering in a church as a good deed, whereas they see volunteering in a youth sport or something that they enjoy as ⁓ well, no, I just love doing that. And let's talk about your volunteer. You have somebody like, no, I love pouring into people. And what a better way to do that than to to in the church where the kingdom of God there's a mentality shift that the work doesn't feel like work. Now here's the other part. Let's also recognize that work is not bad. Adam and Eve had a job in the garden. So work is not the result of sin. The other part was nowhere in the Bible does it ever say you volunteer for church. Like part of being in the kingdom, in Paul used language of hands and feet in 1 Corinthians and in Romans, right? The body. My hand doesn't volunteer to be a hand. It's just a hand. It's available, right? I wonder if some of our language also betrays us because when we use the word rest, and this is the number of times that I've heard this, and and and if if somebody's listening to this and if they feel a little called out by this, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask, hey, maybe let's let the Holy Spirit speak. But do you know how many times I've heard people who say this? I haven't seen them at church in months. ⁓ you know, we just got really busy and something had to give. And so, you know, we've just spending spending family time together. That's why we haven't been at church. And These are people who I know love Jesus, who I don't question their Christianity, their faith, but think about what they chose. Mm-hmm. Their their thing was, well, I I my family has to come first. And in the midst of that, the whole point of rest in the Bible Bible is a family dynamic, and church community is part of that. So what they'd rather do is give up the thing that feeds their soul, feeds their kids spiritually, so that they can play golf more, or so that they can go fishing more, or so that they can work more, or so they can play more sports, or so they can just sit at home and do nothing or go on vacations. And and here's the thing that I I think scares me about that. It is becoming more and more commonplace because we have more discretionary income than ever before. It used to be church was the center of culture. And so when you rested, you would do picnics with the church. You would do lunches and there was community and they would rest together. And we've lost that. And now the new church is the it's the travel sports. Now the new church is the softball log. Now the new church is just hanging. My family is my new church. And I'm and my problem with that is that that's not what the Bible says. That's how rest works. Those are all good things. But they they've they've missed it. And I think I I one of the language pieces that I've heard. And I'm I'm being a little more challenging than I normally am on this because it's something that I've seen in myself. And so even on the refuge, like ⁓ I could see the appeal of when I'm tired, dude, I'm just gonna get away. And what I appreciated about the refuge, like we have a time of worship, we have a time of of community. Like there it wasn't just let's go fishing and relax. No, there was The refuge was also in the community, in the closeness. But I I want to share four words. And two of them I think have hurt us in the way we think about rest. And two of them could change everything for us. And I think these connect to why people, a lot of times in even in church, assume that when they're when they're feeling busy, the thing that needs to go is Jesus. And I think part of it's because they feel safe. It's what is it? You're you're meanest to those you love because you feel safest with them. ⁓ so here's the first two words: balance and margin. ⁓ I hear this, I need to find more balance in my life. And here's the thing that I find. Balance implies equal distribution. I've never had balance in my life. I don't know that I'll ever have balance in my life because the minute I think I've found it. ⁓ something happens and throws it out of balance. So I'm chasing something that's impossible. I mean, I've ⁓ have you experienced that? I mean I might I think I already know the answer to that, but like what is that what do you think about that?
speaker-1: Okay. It can be discouraging to chase something you perceive as impossible, is that what you're asking? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ But my my question would be what makes it impossible, I guess. Yep. And and if it is if people think rest is impossible because I'm so busy, right? Then it is a mentality switch and it is going to be then. So I don't know. I think it's also not to take it completely off the rails, but like I read a book ⁓ and it was ⁓ talking about how We strive to be like Jesus. Yeah. You know, as Christians, you know, we we want to emulate Jesus. But that's an impossible task. That is chasing a rabbit we'll never catch. Yes. Well, but but then the point of the book that the book makes to some controversy is that you were never designed to be Jesus. You were designed to be Jason, Courtney, Jaden, listener, your name. Fill in the blank here. ⁓
speaker-0: At least this side of heaven. Amen.
speaker-1: But but you can have the heart of Christ. Yes. And so you can you can be daunted by this impossible task or you can persevere towards it.
speaker-0: Well, and this is the problem with balance. So balance implies equal distribution. And so when people are like, I need to find more balance in my life. Let's think about that statement in itself. So why are you out of balance? Well, I'm out of balance because I'm busy. Okay, so ⁓ there are 24 hours in a day. The average person is supposed to sleep six to eight hours, which gives you 16 hours. You have eight hours of work, typically, which means you have eight hours of rest or other things to get stuff done. Is that how anybody's life functions? No. So there's no balance. Because let what happens like for instance ⁓ when you only get four hours of sleep a night? Mm-hmm. Or what if what if you're disciplined and you're like, dude, I only need five hours of sleep a night, and you go to the gym first thing in the morning so you can get to the office and then you work ten hours, but then you get home and you have your family or you have a loan time. Like the the chasing balance is an illusion. And then what ends up happening is, and this is why I think they do it, is they're like, Well, I can't give up work, I can't give up sleep. So what can I give up? Well, I can't give up my family. Well, some people choose to give up their family, sadly. So what do they do? Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give up rest. And I'm gonna I'm gonna give up, I'm gonna give up God. I've I've heard that regularly. ⁓ I just stopped going church. I just didn't have space for it anymore, right? ⁓ and so when we chase balance.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: The other reason why balance doesn't work is that alls it takes is a little bit I mean a if okay, so if you have two equal weights, all it takes is a feather to get you out of balance.
speaker-1: So this is this is actually what I really like. So all of this to me is a value conversation. Yes. And and I as you're as we're having this discussion, I literally think of how they used to weigh value. Yeah. Was on the scales, right? If if this weighed as much as this Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And then and that was achieving a balance of sorts. Okay, we have reached a balance of what we believe these two things value.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And w when you're saying when we give and give and give and give and give to the point this is so heavy, I hear that people are are ultimately giving up on the two things you described, themselves and God. Yeah. And it's going to come at the cost of everything else because you put God actually on the scale and he's going to be heavier than everything else.
speaker-0: Allow him to be God. Of course. If you don't so I think this this goes into the other part is that God feels safe because, well, Jesus loves me. So I can do whatever I want. Yeah. I I don't have to. And it's like, that's true, but do you want to experience that love? Because if you want to experience the love of God, you have to make space for the love of God. Now, here is the the danger that I see also with Christians is that sometimes we move into a performative Christianity trying to earn something from God. And so we're not actually resting in the Lord either. We're still performing. We're just doing a different job. Right. And so I've watched people who volunteer ten, twenty hours, not and and this is again why the language of volunteering, I don't I don't even really like that language because now it's you have to start weighing what why am I volunteering? And we've got to get volunteers. I like investment.
speaker-1: language of investment is really positive.
speaker-0: But I also like it even a step further than that. How about the language of family? My kids don't volunteer. My kids don't invest. They're just part of the family. And it is part of what it means to be a healthy family.
speaker-1: But remember that's a weighted word for people too.
speaker-0: That's right. So but here's the thing. some some Christians have gotten rid of the word family when it comes to church because it comes with a lot of baggage. Sure. I'm gonna say that's a dumb reason to get rid of the word. And let me tell you why. ⁓ there are all kinds of words that have baggage that we've chosen to not get rid of.
speaker-1: Right. Of course movements that remove the word father from the Bible.
speaker-0: That's right. Sure. So where it just because something has bad negatation ⁓ connotations to it does not mean we should get rid of the word. Sure. What we need to do is properly define the word. Yes. And then also make sure we're not abusing the word. There we go. Because where churches have abused the word is we're a family. And so now all of a sudden they start using that as a way to bring shame, condemnation, guilt. ⁓ you know, ⁓ we're one family that works together, so I can I don't have to take care of you because we're a family, right? No, no, no. But it is the family of God. The language of family is throughout scripture. So to get rid of a word simply because it has pain points to it is a ⁓ a bad reason to get rid of a word. Now, can I also acknowledge that the the word can be abused? Yes. The word balance, not found anywhere in the Bible. Mm-hmm. Now, and truth is, the only word in here that's ever found in the Bible is the word rest. That's the only word out of the four that I'm gonna talk about, the only one that's actually found in the Bible. But I think the the idea of what we're gonna see on the third word, I think is definitely there. So balance balance I think we have to get rid of balance and rest. I think when we do that you're you're never gonna have rest or you're gonna end up moving towards something that you think is rest that isn't. Okay. Well
speaker-1: Also, sorry to just hold on to it for a second, but even God's view of rest wasn't balanced. It wasn't it
speaker-0: And seven. Yeah. Okay, second word, margin. I need more margin in my life. And margin is about assuming empty space to, you know, it's not even meant to be filled. It's just meant to be margin in your life. ⁓ so when I was a kid, okay, I'm gonna tell my age here, way before computers, when everybody had to write, I had to write cursive. I had to learn cursive. Yep. And we had to write our handwriter reports, usually with pencil when we were kids, and then eventually pen when we got older into high school. Teacher would say. You're ⁓ you have a a two inch margin, a one inch margin, double space, single space, whatever it was, right? Imagine if the teacher said, Okay, hey, ⁓ you get to determine the margins of your paper and you only have to write three pages.
speaker-1: Four inch margins. Four inch.
speaker-0: It's margins, right? Why? Because I like I'm gonna make it easier for me. Margin implies either one, make it easier or harder for me. And here's my problem with margin. We're often the one who dis defines margin. See in school, the teacher never let you define your margin. Right. The teacher did. So th there's a reason why the teacher never said you get to determine what the empty space is, because we'd all abuse it. Mm-hmm. And for some, and I want to be clear, for some people, the abuse would be they'd give no margin. They would fill all the way across because they have all the words. Other people are like, I have 40 words and three pages. ⁓ so when I was in my my biggest complaint from all of my teachers, ⁓ it's harder to condense, like sometimes I'd have 180 pages of reading. Sometimes more, sometimes a little less, right? So when I was in school, you had to condense sometimes 180 pages of reading into three pages. Because it's harder to summarize in three pages as opposed to five or eight. Yeah. So for every page we went over, we'd get deducted. Sure. And so ⁓ my tendency was I would over-explain things. Yeah. And so regularly, my teachers like
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
speaker-0: Didn't need this, didn't need this. You could have just said it here. I only had in in all eight years of school from my bachelor's to my ⁓ Div, I only had one perfect paper. And literally I tried to recreate it over and over and I could never do it. And I don't even know how I did it. I don't know if I was just in the zone or what. But literally the teacher the teacher, one perfect paper. The rest of ⁓ my commas. My I was horrible with commas because I I yeah. I I no one knows where you put a comma. I'm just gonna say that. Can I just say no one actually knows where comma? No, no, I'll tell you because you get two teachers and they're not gonna agree on where a comma goes. How do I know that? Because I had one we call them the comma, not so they no margins, not commas. So literally I had one teacher who would I would I would take his notes, he would circle commas. Now thankfully you only got points if you got one point and if it was the same issue and over again, it only counted as one point off you.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Otherwise I would have gotten Fs all the time. So I had one teacher, I will not say his name, not that he's listening to this, but I just I'm not gonna say his name. But he would he would correct my commas. Yeah. And then I would go back and I would change them on the next paper and he would still say I was doing wrong. I'm like, but over here. So I don't think I don't think anybody knows where comma goes. I don't think anybody knows.
speaker-1: Chameleon.
speaker-0: There we go. ⁓ so the problem with margin is we define margin. Okay. And when it comes to rest, we're like, Well, I just need empty space. Now here's the thing. The first thing that I see people do regularly will I get rid of church. Or ⁓ they get rid of family time. Mm-hmm. Because man, I need margin in my life, so I need to go play golf more. True. I need margin in my life so that I can do X, Y, Z more, right? Mm-hmm. And so the problem with margins, we define margins. So problem with balance, it's an elusive thing that all it takes is a little bit of things and you're out of balance and that's an impossible task. Margin, you're the one who defines it. And the truth is most of us are either gonna get rid of margins because we just don't think we need space, or we're gonna make them so thick, ⁓ so so there's no substance to them and we it basically just becomes a form of selfishness.
speaker-1: That there's no substance.
speaker-0: Okay, here's the third one that I I think moves us closer. Okay. And it's the idea of rest.
speaker-1: So the third word is rest.
speaker-0: Rest, yep. And that's the biblical word. But here's the word that's tied to it and why. It's the word rhythm. Mm-hmm. See, rhythm assumes space in a given time, and when we use music, so you know, you have four, four, six, eight, three, four, you know, you get weird time signatures like five eight and eight five, whatever. What happens if you just play one note consistently with no with no rest?
speaker-1: It's just It's noise. It's endless. It's just that drone.
speaker-0: That's all it is. It's just noise. Even if you switch notes, it just becomes noise. Music is found in the pauses, in the rests. And if you look at the Bible, six days on, one day off, but then it wasn't, it didn't just stay there because then God also gives seasons of fallow, ⁓ where every seventh year, year, every seventh year, you had a fallow year for the land. Every fifty years they were supposed to have the year of Jubilee in which all debts were canceled and land was given back and slaves were freed. By the way, Israel never did the year of Jubilee in their entire history. They never made it to the year of Jubilee, because they were so incredibly unfaithful. You had the festivals and the feasts, all these things were meant to create rhythms and seasons to come in. Now, in church world, we've had the church calendar that that was is supposed to do that.
speaker-1: Liturgical calendar.
speaker-0: Liturgical calendar is supposed to be those seasons of rest. ⁓
speaker-1: So why have we for the most part done away with it?
speaker-0: ⁓ and I have I have thoughts behind this, and some will disagree with me, and I'm okay with that. ⁓ because somewhere along the way, those seasons became empty for the people. Because life fights against it. And so some people say, Well, isn't the goal of the church then to push back to holy resistance? And I would say, yes. However, and this is my problem with sometimes are the things that we do in church. ⁓ if we're not careful, it now just becomes a different kind of work and legalism. And and so how and this is where I again I struggle with this. ⁓ because now all of a sudden it's you have to find a pace. And and when people will use Old Testament as an example, right? The New Testament, there's no feasts or festivals that are carried over into the New Testament. Mm-hmm. Why?
speaker-1: I couldn't answer that. I'm not educated enough.
speaker-0: Neither can I. Sure. It we just see that there's their their the regimenness is not there. The only thing that is told is that they practiced a day of the Lord. Now they still had throughout church history they obviously did like Easter and Christmas and Lent and Advent and and all those kind of things. We carried over something from the Old Testament that I I'm not saying is wrong. Yeah. But I I don't know that it's actually been helpful. in the church because it actually lost its meaning because it just became something we did. Mm-hmm. And so is the problem with the the process? I don't think so. I think the problem is is that it no longer and and this is where I'm I I wonder If somewhere between ⁓ the first century church and today, in the midst of all this, yes, had everything just continued on this trajectory and the and the church became the governing rule, the order the rule of life of how we functioned and how we ordered our lives, that would be great. And I I value that. I think there's value in that. But it kind of goes back to the same problem that I've seen all along, which is now it also just becomes another form of legalism if we're not careful. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I have I well I don't want to push back. I just have a hard time with phrases like legalism and and relating it to concepts of rhythm, right? So like there are some things I do because I just know that they're good for me. Yes. I I I rec I recognize that there are spiritual practices like prayer and fasting and things like that. That are just good for me. And sometimes I am doing them because I just know I need to. Yes. And it and it might not be like like my heart isn't like I better cross this out the list, but it is also kind of like I I do need to make sure I do that. You know, so there's a difference there. Yep.
speaker-0: And I'm gonna tell you the thing that I think is really important in the distinction. Mm-hmm. You chose it.
speaker-1: Right. But people can ⁓ still you you still choose to bind yourself to a law legalism, right?
speaker-0: Now this is why I think from a church wise why it lost it has lost some of its edge. consistency of life. Okay. So average church person, now again, this is not us bending to culture, this is just acknowledging reality. Yeah. Okay. Average ch church attender once every six weeks. That's the average church attender right now in America. If I'm coming once every six weeks, now obviously they've got a out of balance life, they've lost purpose and rhythm and all those kind of things. ⁓ the person who's committed
speaker-1: Okay?
speaker-0: Four out of six weeks, which is amazing, right? Some are six, I don't very few people are six out of six weeks just because life, right? Vacations, everything else. Sure. Here's where I think the difference lies. Is that one, I don't think we actually showed that following these things actually led to the life change that we promised. Mm-hmm. And so what do they do? They they went and built their own cisterns. Because this is this is I'm guessing. I think this is why the Bible doesn't the New Testament doesn't say you have to do these things. They were things that were formed in the culture. So ⁓ please don't hear what I'm not saying. Don't read into it. I'm not saying those things are bad. I'm saying when you say no, every church has to do this, and if we don't do this, we're we've got a problem. I think what ends up happening is it just now all of a sudden you're serving the thing instead of the thing serving you. An example of
speaker-1: Well s what is it, Sabbath is for the man, not man for the Sabbath?
speaker-0: Yes. And and so let's go back even to Lent. How many Christians do you know who give up something for Lent?
speaker-1: Well well a a good number, but maybe not it's sometimes it's just because it's Lent.
speaker-0: Just because it's Lent. Sure. Right? And that's that's a
speaker-1: It doesn't lead them into a deeper communion with Christ. Or
speaker-0: Even in the community, they're just it's Lent. We gotta I gotta give something up. I'm gonna give up fish.
speaker-1: That's actually what they
speaker-0: I know. I did that intentionally. Yeah. You see what I'm saying there? Because now what it did, and and again, the we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. But so ⁓ this is this is why I'm saying is how do we actually teach it? We have to teach them the frameworks, we have to teach them just like we teach them about fasting, we teach them about meditation, we teach them about scripture, but when that becomes the thing, it's like having faith in faith. Now you're putting your faith in those things, going, Well, if you do this, you're gonna be changed.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's what I wanted I was worried about.
speaker-0: But here's what we know about human beings. Eventually, when something that is ritual just becomes something you do, it loses its effectiveness. Not because it's bad, but because what we tend to do is we make those things habits, which are not always bad, but if they lose their meaning, if they lose the intentionality, an example of this. ⁓ And we and we see this, let's be clear this isn't a liturgical, this isn't traditional contemporary. Mm-hmm. How many times do we see people singing songs and not thinking about the song they're singing? They're just singing because the lyrics on the it
speaker-1: Yeah. What what level ⁓ exists though with ⁓ my mind goes to like the spirit is still involved in these practices. Yep. So how do we ⁓ like is it still com is it completely ineffective? Or is it I don't know. Right. Right
speaker-0: I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm saying let's not make them more than they are and let's not make them less than they are. Right. My problem is when we make them more than they are, more than they were supposed to be. Because now you can put them in ⁓ it's the it's like
speaker-1: It's it's it's yeah, it's it's the Pharisaic kind of mentality.
speaker-0: Yes. And so now all of a sudden if you're not doing them, there's a problem. And I'm like, well, wait, I know people who do them and it's led to no life change. Why? Because the spirit was not in it. Yeah. The whole and by the spirit I don't mean like you got spirit. I mean the Holy Spirit was not in it. They were not in community. They became religious things that they did. And here's what I think happened. And again, getting saved in a Baptist church that didn't do any of those things except for Christmas and Easter. ⁓ I think they overcorrected. That's why I said I I want to be careful. I'm not saying you're bad. We need things that give us a rhythm, right? When when I hand you a sheet music, if I hand you a piece of music, if I don't put a time signature on it, you won't know what the rhythm is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? So if I hand you just notes, but I don't say it's in three, four or four, four. Yeah. And you got the same paper, I do, and I've got the same paper, but there's no rhythm to it, we're not gonna play it the same. Even if we have you know. Quarter notes, three, I mean, we can guess, but we're we're gonna miss some things. So the purpose of those things is to help give us some structure. Yeah. But you can't be beholden to it. It can't be the ultimate thing because now you miss the music. ⁓ it's the difference between a a a master piano player, someone who is like a a master musician, and someone who just plays the notes.
speaker-1: Yeah. Someone's just following a structure, the other person knows the music.
speaker-0: And and in fact if you've ever listened to somebody who really knows music well, they'll finesse things, they'll do things with it. But you have to start off with the structure. And that's why again, I'm not saying it's they're wrong. Yeah. I'm saying that what we if we're not careful, we become so obsessed with the structure that we don't actually teach people how to play the music, how to play the song. Yeah.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ you know, as we come to a conclusion for this episode, I think we we've talked a lot about the warning signs or like the ⁓ the possible things we might be missing if we're not attaching these rhythms of rest to our lives. But I think in our next episode, if you agree to this, I'd really love us to then step into what we're talking about here. Let's teach them the value. Yeah. Let's go over rest. Let's go over some of these rhythms. Let's let's show them this investment. that when they do choose to have value in these things that actually the bleed over into those things that they were tr they do value as well. Family, work, ⁓ play. Like golfing, great.
speaker-0: Play play is such an important part of the
speaker-1: That that these things, this investment of rest and rhythm ⁓ i it it increases the dividend.
speaker-0: And and I I want people to hear this. I am not knocking the liturgical calendar. I'm saying that a liturgical calendar does not guarantee change. It's a good structure, but just because somebody does something doesn't mean it's going to lead to life change. It's the same thing with reading the Bible or praying. The goal is the relationship with Christ. So and that's why I said when you were like, No, I know I need these things. The habits are important. Yeah. But it's because the habits are about forming a relationship. Yep. They're not just about, well, I've got these habits that I do. ⁓ I'll I'll I'll end with this and and I I actually think it'd be great for us to talk about it. How do we create rhythm in our life that Feels like balance, but it's not worried about balance. That feels like margin, but isn't worried about margin. Does that make do you see the like because if if you hear a really good song, ⁓ I don't so certain types of jazz I don't like because it's just noise. Like you know what a fugue is? Like when things are just put it up and everything's going and nobody's playing anything. There's some people like, dude, do you hear all the notes? And I'm like, I hear all the notes. I don't enjoy it. A f a great musician can enjoy it. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but man, when you listen to a really good jazz player who just knows w when to leave space because they feel it, it feels balanced. Even though it's not, there's an imbalance. It's ⁓ it's the same thing like, you know, the video stuff. There are balances and there's color balances, all these different things that come in. And I think if we can teach people that the goal of rest And and I'll end with this. The goal is not to rest from your work, it's to work from your rest. That is the pri rest is supposed to be the fuel that allows you to to work well. But what most of us do is we work, work, work, work, work, work, and then we rest poorly, and then we wonder why we're so fatigued and tired. Because we're not actually working from our rest, we're resting from our work. And the goal, if you look at Adam and Eve, and let's get back to this next week when we talk. What's the very first thing that Adam did after he was created? He rested. He didn't go right to work. Literally, he's created on the sixth day, seventh day he rests with the Lord, which shows that we are meant to be human beings, not human doings. And so that rest, which is why we need church, not for the message, not even for the worship, but for the community. And then yes, so that we come into God's word, so that we have alignment. And this is where the things like liturgical calendars, churches that do that, that can be helpful, but it can't be ultimate. Same thing with sermon series and and and tr and contemporary services, like if we're not careful, we'll get rid of rhythms altogether because we're just constantly trying to we're striving for the next experience. And so I think we build these in, but how do we do them? ⁓ And so yeah, dude, I think I think this has I think this is something that could change people if they actually were to really look at it and change their language. But also recognize like let God be the one who determines rest. And when you get rid of the God who you are meant to be still with, ⁓ no wonder life feels frenetic. And because the why is different, we are called to do the business of God, but not the busyness of God. And so going about the Lord's business, like it's it's a fun phrase to say, but what does that mean? It means that God has purpose for us, it has calling. So fun is part of that, family's part of that, our jobs are part of that, ⁓ community's part of that.
speaker-1: Awesome. Yeah. I I think this would be a valuable conversation moving forward. Well, hey, thank you guys for listening. ⁓ follow us on our socials, which all can be found in the description underneath this, and ⁓ as well as submit your questions to podcast at Zionclear Lake.org. We'd love to hear from you. See you next week.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Some of the most quality people I've ever met. ⁓ but I've been, I I was blessed to go to this place called the refuge. It's invitation only. So you can't just sign up. And once you're in, you can go the rest of your life once you're invited. But it's designed not just for pastors, but people in, you know, leadership life, that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. ⁓ And one of the things that I've appreciated about the refuge is that the whole point of it is it's not a there's it's not a seminar, there's no conference, there's no classes, it's not a it's not even a really a retreat in that in that sense. ⁓ you get to hang out and you do whatever you need to do to get rest. And the only time they have is what's called table time, which is you sit around a table and there's a basically the question is what could take you out of the game? And then there's five areas.
speaker-1: Like what could end your leadership?
speaker-0: Yep, or yeah. What could end your leadership, what could end your ministry, your job, your marriage, like wow. And so like, and then there are five areas that we talk about. And so I've been so grateful ⁓ for the refuge over the last five ⁓ four years, but five refuges. And so it got me thinking as we were coming this morning, man, I thought it'd be great to talk about rest. And the truth is, I struggle with rest.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I think if anyone's being really honest with themselves in today's day and age, most of us do.
speaker-0: Yeah. Well and and I think some of it is like we have this high praise for busyness. ⁓ yeah. So I'm like for instance when how you doing? What's the most response? Everybody's busy. Every and you know what one of the my biggest issues with this, and I said this to somebody once, because they were the way they said it was almost like a you should be lucky that we're talking because I'm really busy. Woof.
speaker-1: Busy. Busy. Busy as usual.
speaker-0: And because I asked him how you know how we're doing and and he was like, Yeah, I'm just really busy, man. I'm gonna squeeze out some time for you. And I said, ⁓ so you don't you don't think I'm busy? And I think that's when when people use that language of I'm busy, it's the implication that nobody else is. Because I mean, think about that, like even having that conversation, there are some people and now I know some people who are legitimately like when when I say busy, I mean they're working sixty, seventy hour weeks.
speaker-1: Well I think that's also something culturally we've defined as busy is just our work. Right. So so because I think any person who is a parent would consider themselves busy because it just is busy work taking care of kids. Well and
speaker-0: Okay, so what does the word busy mean? Right. And I and that's so I I was even as we're talking, and I look it up. I when I I mean we have the word business, which we know busy comes business and busy connected in the same word. But it is a word that we throw around and it's often used as a badge of honor. And so, like for instance, we praise a high work ethic. Mm-hmm. Do we praise a high rest ethic? Why?
speaker-1: Well, I mean if the positive inclination is busy equals good, well then not busy is bad. If you're ⁓ a lot of people attach rest to laziness. Yeah. Or or ⁓ maybe not ⁓ what's the word? Amititious or productive. Yeah. Not a go get
speaker-0: Better and and so and and I'll ⁓ one of the things that ⁓ churches are notorious for and and it's it's something that like at Zion we've we've really ⁓ as far as my leadership, I've really tried to change a culture thing. So if the church is supposed to look like the kingdom of God in the world, heaven is not going to be busy. It's gonna be intentional. There's going to be work, but it's not going to be busy. Yeah. And so did you find a definition of busy?
speaker-1: And there's going to be work. Yeah, busy just means someone actively engaged in work or a task.
speaker-0: And and I I what I would say is I think that let's look at the the implications of busyness. Mm-hmm. Because the truth is, is while that's what it is, I think there there's far more meaning to when we say busy. I think usually busy means hurried. Like I'm constantly on the go. I don't have a time to think. I'm just all there's always something. There's a freneticness to busyness. Yeah. Right? Because business and busyness, the why is what changes it. Mm-hmm. Did you catch that?
speaker-1: Say it one more time.
speaker-0: Busyness and business, the why is what changes it. Literally from the letter why, but the question of why. And an example of this is that in business, business does not have to be busyness. No. And I think it has to do with the motivation of what you're trying to accomplish. So ⁓ so for instance, when we look at business, dude, we have bus we have the business of God that we're called to. It's the things, the tasks, responsibility, the business of rest. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Why? Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a real thing. Business is an intentionality, a purpose, it's a work. Busyness as when I think we're t we're t we're searching for something by filling our time and I think we're trying to find value in our business. And I'm just I mean I'm just spitballing. Like I've not thought about that. But I mean
speaker-1: I'm with it. The other part of it too is a lot of us feel like we need to justify our rest too. So if we're not busy enough, well then the rest is the reward wasn't earned. Yep. So that's it too. And I
speaker-0: I wonder if busyness, the why of busyness versus business is trying to justify or define validation or value and worth. Because the the no one no one actually uses business as a badge of honor, but busyness is one of those things that it's like a card we play. I'm busy.
speaker-1: What you're saying is you believe that that busyness, we're attaching it to worth, to value, to ⁓ status. Absolutely. I mean Let's let's take our
speaker-0: Hold on, do we need to go back to that busyness or did you catch that? The busyness, business. Okay. Sorry, yeah. No, it's okay, go back. ⁓ so I think the difference between business and busyness is the why. And yes, I I I get the word play. ⁓ but I think busyness is about trying to find your worth or your value. And whereas business is a task, it's a responsibility, it's a job, whatever. But busyness, we use it like a badge of honor. ⁓
speaker-1: It it it it's how yeah, worth value status is one hundred percent busyness. I mean, we think of like culturally right now, a big name that pops into people's head and they think success is a guy, Elon Musk. Yeah. And and and if you know even a shred of his like follow him in any capacity, he's like the busiest guy ever. Yeah. And so yes, his acclaim to fame and his status and his worth. worth is attached to how much he's accomplishing and how much he's doing, society would say yes.
speaker-0: And and church wise, I think we've fallen prey to that mentality. ⁓ so I I knew a church and I will not say names ⁓ Excuse me. I knew a church that literally told its staff the Lord worked six days and only needed one day off. That's all you need. Sure. And so staff were expected to work six days a week, not forty hours, eight to ten hour days, six days a week, because they got a day off. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Hundred percent.
speaker-0: And I'm like, well, did you also did you get festivals then because the Lord implemented festivals and new moons and and all the all the feasts? Did you did you no? It was literally they took God's word and they used it to basically because the goal was productivity. And here's the question that I've been over the years, I've thought through this. This isn't a new thing for me. ⁓ if church is supposed to be a reflection of the kingdom of God, what does it say? When the people who are leading in the church are stressed out and burnt out because they're busy, that doesn't mean they don't work and it doesn't mean they don't work hard. It doesn't mean they're not productive. But when their value is based upon their productivity, bless you. Every time she sneezes, it's like if I sneezed, we'd we'd be blowing speakers, like we knew new microphones or headphones or something. ⁓ But I I I wonder how much of that is like within our own Christian culture. Because here's the thing, like volunteers, you know, the the truth is our job as staff is not to do the work. Our job as staff is to equip people to do the work of ministry. That is our primary work. Now, that doesn't mean we don't have work to do, but church is a volunteer or and we like to use the word investment. ⁓ it's serving in the kingdom, it's serving in the church, serving in the community, right? And I've met pastors and churches, and and again, this is where I get it gets sticky. I know churches that do this. Well, you work 40 hours and then you volunteer 10 to 15 hours because that's what the average person in your church does. They they work a job and then they volunteer. So we're gonna pay you for 40, but we expect 50 to 60 because that's what everybody else does. And the problem that I have with that mentality, ⁓ is one you don't have a choice. Because when we look at a church, I want we want people to serve in our ministries, right? And I recognizing they're sacrificing. Like we have people who work hard jobs and then they come and serve in a church. Sometimes it's for an hour a week, sometimes it's 10, sometimes 15 hours a week, but they have a choice. But when you have a staff member, when you do it as a church and you say, Well, no, now you you are required to volunteer, there's no choice in there. And I wonder what that does psychologically to somebody when you require volunteerism as a way of getting extra work. Now, I'm there's a reason why I want to go into this, and it's not just to call out church culture, because I think church can get we can get really funky in how we handle things. ⁓ but I also I like how do we how do we How do we help people find rest and recognizing that when you're doing the things that God has called you to, what's what's the old adage? If you do what you love, it never feels like a day of work in your life.
speaker-1: Yeah, that was that was kind of what I was ⁓ thinking about as I was listening to you is a lot of the this this viewpoint that you're expressing is is all viewed through like the negative lens. Like this stuff has to be so like has to take, take, take. Yep. Where I know ⁓ one of my volunteers who they could ⁓ they're on the worship team, they could do it every single night. And they wouldn't bat an eye because it fills their cup and and they love to fill others' cups. So it isn't just a self serving thing like, ⁓ I just want this and it I love it. Like they see the value. And and so I think part of it too is a mentality switch. It's like, is it all just take like especi you know?
speaker-0: Well and here's where I wanted to go with this, because church isn't the only one that demands this. Of course. And in fact, I watch individuals and I'm I'm just gonna call it out. I've watched as parents who will gladly volunteer and pay extra to do youth sports because they find value in it. Mm hmm. And sometimes they're putting way more than an hour or two. We're talking fifteen. It's a part time job. And they're paying to do it. Yeah. And and so here's here's a couple of things that I wanna talk about. One, and then I don't wanna I'm not trying to bring shame on that. I I wanna what is it about the youth sports or about doing something that you love to do, but then when it comes to church it's there's a boundary put in place and here's my suspicion. Mm-hmm. Okay, and this is where I I think we wan I wanna get into it. is I think for some people, not all, I think they see volunteering in a church as a good deed, whereas they see volunteering in a youth sport or something that they enjoy as ⁓ well, no, I just love doing that. And let's talk about your volunteer. You have somebody like, no, I love pouring into people. And what a better way to do that than to to in the church where the kingdom of God there's a mentality shift that the work doesn't feel like work. Now here's the other part. Let's also recognize that work is not bad. Adam and Eve had a job in the garden. So work is not the result of sin. The other part was nowhere in the Bible does it ever say you volunteer for church. Like part of being in the kingdom, in Paul used language of hands and feet in 1 Corinthians and in Romans, right? The body. My hand doesn't volunteer to be a hand. It's just a hand. It's available, right? I wonder if some of our language also betrays us because when we use the word rest, and this is the number of times that I've heard this, and and and if if somebody's listening to this and if they feel a little called out by this, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask, hey, maybe let's let the Holy Spirit speak. But do you know how many times I've heard people who say this? I haven't seen them at church in months. ⁓ you know, we just got really busy and something had to give. And so, you know, we've just spending spending family time together. That's why we haven't been at church. And These are people who I know love Jesus, who I don't question their Christianity, their faith, but think about what they chose. Mm-hmm. Their their thing was, well, I I my family has to come first. And in the midst of that, the whole point of rest in the Bible Bible is a family dynamic, and church community is part of that. So what they'd rather do is give up the thing that feeds their soul, feeds their kids spiritually, so that they can play golf more, or so that they can go fishing more, or so that they can work more, or so they can play more sports, or so they can just sit at home and do nothing or go on vacations. And and here's the thing that I I think scares me about that. It is becoming more and more commonplace because we have more discretionary income than ever before. It used to be church was the center of culture. And so when you rested, you would do picnics with the church. You would do lunches and there was community and they would rest together. And we've lost that. And now the new church is the it's the travel sports. Now the new church is the softball log. Now the new church is just hanging. My family is my new church. And I'm and my problem with that is that that's not what the Bible says. That's how rest works. Those are all good things. But they they've they've missed it. And I think I I one of the language pieces that I've heard. And I'm I'm being a little more challenging than I normally am on this because it's something that I've seen in myself. And so even on the refuge, like ⁓ I could see the appeal of when I'm tired, dude, I'm just gonna get away. And what I appreciated about the refuge, like we have a time of worship, we have a time of of community. Like there it wasn't just let's go fishing and relax. No, there was The refuge was also in the community, in the closeness. But I I want to share four words. And two of them I think have hurt us in the way we think about rest. And two of them could change everything for us. And I think these connect to why people, a lot of times in even in church, assume that when they're when they're feeling busy, the thing that needs to go is Jesus. And I think part of it's because they feel safe. It's what is it? You're you're meanest to those you love because you feel safest with them. ⁓ so here's the first two words: balance and margin. ⁓ I hear this, I need to find more balance in my life. And here's the thing that I find. Balance implies equal distribution. I've never had balance in my life. I don't know that I'll ever have balance in my life because the minute I think I've found it. ⁓ something happens and throws it out of balance. So I'm chasing something that's impossible. I mean, I've ⁓ have you experienced that? I mean I might I think I already know the answer to that, but like what is that what do you think about that?
speaker-1: Okay. It can be discouraging to chase something you perceive as impossible, is that what you're asking? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ But my my question would be what makes it impossible, I guess. Yep. And and if it is if people think rest is impossible because I'm so busy, right? Then it is a mentality switch and it is going to be then. So I don't know. I think it's also not to take it completely off the rails, but like I read a book ⁓ and it was ⁓ talking about how We strive to be like Jesus. Yeah. You know, as Christians, you know, we we want to emulate Jesus. But that's an impossible task. That is chasing a rabbit we'll never catch. Yes. Well, but but then the point of the book that the book makes to some controversy is that you were never designed to be Jesus. You were designed to be Jason, Courtney, Jaden, listener, your name. Fill in the blank here. ⁓
speaker-0: At least this side of heaven. Amen.
speaker-1: But but you can have the heart of Christ. Yes. And so you can you can be daunted by this impossible task or you can persevere towards it.
speaker-0: Well, and this is the problem with balance. So balance implies equal distribution. And so when people are like, I need to find more balance in my life. Let's think about that statement in itself. So why are you out of balance? Well, I'm out of balance because I'm busy. Okay, so ⁓ there are 24 hours in a day. The average person is supposed to sleep six to eight hours, which gives you 16 hours. You have eight hours of work, typically, which means you have eight hours of rest or other things to get stuff done. Is that how anybody's life functions? No. So there's no balance. Because let what happens like for instance ⁓ when you only get four hours of sleep a night? Mm-hmm. Or what if what if you're disciplined and you're like, dude, I only need five hours of sleep a night, and you go to the gym first thing in the morning so you can get to the office and then you work ten hours, but then you get home and you have your family or you have a loan time. Like the the chasing balance is an illusion. And then what ends up happening is, and this is why I think they do it, is they're like, Well, I can't give up work, I can't give up sleep. So what can I give up? Well, I can't give up my family. Well, some people choose to give up their family, sadly. So what do they do? Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give up rest. And I'm gonna I'm gonna give up, I'm gonna give up God. I've I've heard that regularly. ⁓ I just stopped going church. I just didn't have space for it anymore, right? ⁓ and so when we chase balance.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: The other reason why balance doesn't work is that alls it takes is a little bit I mean a if okay, so if you have two equal weights, all it takes is a feather to get you out of balance.
speaker-1: So this is this is actually what I really like. So all of this to me is a value conversation. Yes. And and I as you're as we're having this discussion, I literally think of how they used to weigh value. Yeah. Was on the scales, right? If if this weighed as much as this Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And then and that was achieving a balance of sorts. Okay, we have reached a balance of what we believe these two things value.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And w when you're saying when we give and give and give and give and give to the point this is so heavy, I hear that people are are ultimately giving up on the two things you described, themselves and God. Yeah. And it's going to come at the cost of everything else because you put God actually on the scale and he's going to be heavier than everything else.
speaker-0: Allow him to be God. Of course. If you don't so I think this this goes into the other part is that God feels safe because, well, Jesus loves me. So I can do whatever I want. Yeah. I I don't have to. And it's like, that's true, but do you want to experience that love? Because if you want to experience the love of God, you have to make space for the love of God. Now, here is the the danger that I see also with Christians is that sometimes we move into a performative Christianity trying to earn something from God. And so we're not actually resting in the Lord either. We're still performing. We're just doing a different job. Right. And so I've watched people who volunteer ten, twenty hours, not and and this is again why the language of volunteering, I don't I don't even really like that language because now it's you have to start weighing what why am I volunteering? And we've got to get volunteers. I like investment.
speaker-1: language of investment is really positive.
speaker-0: But I also like it even a step further than that. How about the language of family? My kids don't volunteer. My kids don't invest. They're just part of the family. And it is part of what it means to be a healthy family.
speaker-1: But remember that's a weighted word for people too.
speaker-0: That's right. So but here's the thing. some some Christians have gotten rid of the word family when it comes to church because it comes with a lot of baggage. Sure. I'm gonna say that's a dumb reason to get rid of the word. And let me tell you why. ⁓ there are all kinds of words that have baggage that we've chosen to not get rid of.
speaker-1: Right. Of course movements that remove the word father from the Bible.
speaker-0: That's right. Sure. So where it just because something has bad negatation ⁓ connotations to it does not mean we should get rid of the word. Sure. What we need to do is properly define the word. Yes. And then also make sure we're not abusing the word. There we go. Because where churches have abused the word is we're a family. And so now all of a sudden they start using that as a way to bring shame, condemnation, guilt. ⁓ you know, ⁓ we're one family that works together, so I can I don't have to take care of you because we're a family, right? No, no, no. But it is the family of God. The language of family is throughout scripture. So to get rid of a word simply because it has pain points to it is a ⁓ a bad reason to get rid of a word. Now, can I also acknowledge that the the word can be abused? Yes. The word balance, not found anywhere in the Bible. Mm-hmm. Now, and truth is, the only word in here that's ever found in the Bible is the word rest. That's the only word out of the four that I'm gonna talk about, the only one that's actually found in the Bible. But I think the the idea of what we're gonna see on the third word, I think is definitely there. So balance balance I think we have to get rid of balance and rest. I think when we do that you're you're never gonna have rest or you're gonna end up moving towards something that you think is rest that isn't. Okay. Well
speaker-1: Also, sorry to just hold on to it for a second, but even God's view of rest wasn't balanced. It wasn't it
speaker-0: And seven. Yeah. Okay, second word, margin. I need more margin in my life. And margin is about assuming empty space to, you know, it's not even meant to be filled. It's just meant to be margin in your life. ⁓ so when I was a kid, okay, I'm gonna tell my age here, way before computers, when everybody had to write, I had to write cursive. I had to learn cursive. Yep. And we had to write our handwriter reports, usually with pencil when we were kids, and then eventually pen when we got older into high school. Teacher would say. You're ⁓ you have a a two inch margin, a one inch margin, double space, single space, whatever it was, right? Imagine if the teacher said, Okay, hey, ⁓ you get to determine the margins of your paper and you only have to write three pages.
speaker-1: Four inch margins. Four inch.
speaker-0: It's margins, right? Why? Because I like I'm gonna make it easier for me. Margin implies either one, make it easier or harder for me. And here's my problem with margin. We're often the one who dis defines margin. See in school, the teacher never let you define your margin. Right. The teacher did. So th there's a reason why the teacher never said you get to determine what the empty space is, because we'd all abuse it. Mm-hmm. And for some, and I want to be clear, for some people, the abuse would be they'd give no margin. They would fill all the way across because they have all the words. Other people are like, I have 40 words and three pages. ⁓ so when I was in my my biggest complaint from all of my teachers, ⁓ it's harder to condense, like sometimes I'd have 180 pages of reading. Sometimes more, sometimes a little less, right? So when I was in school, you had to condense sometimes 180 pages of reading into three pages. Because it's harder to summarize in three pages as opposed to five or eight. Yeah. So for every page we went over, we'd get deducted. Sure. And so ⁓ my tendency was I would over-explain things. Yeah. And so regularly, my teachers like
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
speaker-0: Didn't need this, didn't need this. You could have just said it here. I only had in in all eight years of school from my bachelor's to my ⁓ Div, I only had one perfect paper. And literally I tried to recreate it over and over and I could never do it. And I don't even know how I did it. I don't know if I was just in the zone or what. But literally the teacher the teacher, one perfect paper. The rest of ⁓ my commas. My I was horrible with commas because I I yeah. I I no one knows where you put a comma. I'm just gonna say that. Can I just say no one actually knows where comma? No, no, I'll tell you because you get two teachers and they're not gonna agree on where a comma goes. How do I know that? Because I had one we call them the comma, not so they no margins, not commas. So literally I had one teacher who would I would I would take his notes, he would circle commas. Now thankfully you only got points if you got one point and if it was the same issue and over again, it only counted as one point off you.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Otherwise I would have gotten Fs all the time. So I had one teacher, I will not say his name, not that he's listening to this, but I just I'm not gonna say his name. But he would he would correct my commas. Yeah. And then I would go back and I would change them on the next paper and he would still say I was doing wrong. I'm like, but over here. So I don't think I don't think anybody knows where comma goes. I don't think anybody knows.
speaker-1: Chameleon.
speaker-0: There we go. ⁓ so the problem with margin is we define margin. Okay. And when it comes to rest, we're like, Well, I just need empty space. Now here's the thing. The first thing that I see people do regularly will I get rid of church. Or ⁓ they get rid of family time. Mm-hmm. Because man, I need margin in my life, so I need to go play golf more. True. I need margin in my life so that I can do X, Y, Z more, right? Mm-hmm. And so the problem with margins, we define margins. So problem with balance, it's an elusive thing that all it takes is a little bit of things and you're out of balance and that's an impossible task. Margin, you're the one who defines it. And the truth is most of us are either gonna get rid of margins because we just don't think we need space, or we're gonna make them so thick, ⁓ so so there's no substance to them and we it basically just becomes a form of selfishness.
speaker-1: That there's no substance.
speaker-0: Okay, here's the third one that I I think moves us closer. Okay. And it's the idea of rest.
speaker-1: So the third word is rest.
speaker-0: Rest, yep. And that's the biblical word. But here's the word that's tied to it and why. It's the word rhythm. Mm-hmm. See, rhythm assumes space in a given time, and when we use music, so you know, you have four, four, six, eight, three, four, you know, you get weird time signatures like five eight and eight five, whatever. What happens if you just play one note consistently with no with no rest?
speaker-1: It's just It's noise. It's endless. It's just that drone.
speaker-0: That's all it is. It's just noise. Even if you switch notes, it just becomes noise. Music is found in the pauses, in the rests. And if you look at the Bible, six days on, one day off, but then it wasn't, it didn't just stay there because then God also gives seasons of fallow, ⁓ where every seventh year, year, every seventh year, you had a fallow year for the land. Every fifty years they were supposed to have the year of Jubilee in which all debts were canceled and land was given back and slaves were freed. By the way, Israel never did the year of Jubilee in their entire history. They never made it to the year of Jubilee, because they were so incredibly unfaithful. You had the festivals and the feasts, all these things were meant to create rhythms and seasons to come in. Now, in church world, we've had the church calendar that that was is supposed to do that.
speaker-1: Liturgical calendar.
speaker-0: Liturgical calendar is supposed to be those seasons of rest. ⁓
speaker-1: So why have we for the most part done away with it?
speaker-0: ⁓ and I have I have thoughts behind this, and some will disagree with me, and I'm okay with that. ⁓ because somewhere along the way, those seasons became empty for the people. Because life fights against it. And so some people say, Well, isn't the goal of the church then to push back to holy resistance? And I would say, yes. However, and this is my problem with sometimes are the things that we do in church. ⁓ if we're not careful, it now just becomes a different kind of work and legalism. And and so how and this is where I again I struggle with this. ⁓ because now all of a sudden it's you have to find a pace. And and when people will use Old Testament as an example, right? The New Testament, there's no feasts or festivals that are carried over into the New Testament. Mm-hmm. Why?
speaker-1: I couldn't answer that. I'm not educated enough.
speaker-0: Neither can I. Sure. It we just see that there's their their the regimenness is not there. The only thing that is told is that they practiced a day of the Lord. Now they still had throughout church history they obviously did like Easter and Christmas and Lent and Advent and and all those kind of things. We carried over something from the Old Testament that I I'm not saying is wrong. Yeah. But I I don't know that it's actually been helpful. in the church because it actually lost its meaning because it just became something we did. Mm-hmm. And so is the problem with the the process? I don't think so. I think the problem is is that it no longer and and this is where I'm I I wonder If somewhere between ⁓ the first century church and today, in the midst of all this, yes, had everything just continued on this trajectory and the and the church became the governing rule, the order the rule of life of how we functioned and how we ordered our lives, that would be great. And I I value that. I think there's value in that. But it kind of goes back to the same problem that I've seen all along, which is now it also just becomes another form of legalism if we're not careful. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I have I well I don't want to push back. I just have a hard time with phrases like legalism and and relating it to concepts of rhythm, right? So like there are some things I do because I just know that they're good for me. Yes. I I I rec I recognize that there are spiritual practices like prayer and fasting and things like that. That are just good for me. And sometimes I am doing them because I just know I need to. Yes. And it and it might not be like like my heart isn't like I better cross this out the list, but it is also kind of like I I do need to make sure I do that. You know, so there's a difference there. Yep.
speaker-0: And I'm gonna tell you the thing that I think is really important in the distinction. Mm-hmm. You chose it.
speaker-1: Right. But people can ⁓ still you you still choose to bind yourself to a law legalism, right?
speaker-0: Now this is why I think from a church wise why it lost it has lost some of its edge. consistency of life. Okay. So average church person, now again, this is not us bending to culture, this is just acknowledging reality. Yeah. Okay. Average ch church attender once every six weeks. That's the average church attender right now in America. If I'm coming once every six weeks, now obviously they've got a out of balance life, they've lost purpose and rhythm and all those kind of things. ⁓ the person who's committed
speaker-1: Okay?
speaker-0: Four out of six weeks, which is amazing, right? Some are six, I don't very few people are six out of six weeks just because life, right? Vacations, everything else. Sure. Here's where I think the difference lies. Is that one, I don't think we actually showed that following these things actually led to the life change that we promised. Mm-hmm. And so what do they do? They they went and built their own cisterns. Because this is this is I'm guessing. I think this is why the Bible doesn't the New Testament doesn't say you have to do these things. They were things that were formed in the culture. So ⁓ please don't hear what I'm not saying. Don't read into it. I'm not saying those things are bad. I'm saying when you say no, every church has to do this, and if we don't do this, we're we've got a problem. I think what ends up happening is it just now all of a sudden you're serving the thing instead of the thing serving you. An example of
speaker-1: Well s what is it, Sabbath is for the man, not man for the Sabbath?
speaker-0: Yes. And and so let's go back even to Lent. How many Christians do you know who give up something for Lent?
speaker-1: Well well a a good number, but maybe not it's sometimes it's just because it's Lent.
speaker-0: Just because it's Lent. Sure. Right? And that's that's a
speaker-1: It doesn't lead them into a deeper communion with Christ. Or
speaker-0: Even in the community, they're just it's Lent. We gotta I gotta give something up. I'm gonna give up fish.
speaker-1: That's actually what they
speaker-0: I know. I did that intentionally. Yeah. You see what I'm saying there? Because now what it did, and and again, the we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. But so ⁓ this is this is why I'm saying is how do we actually teach it? We have to teach them the frameworks, we have to teach them just like we teach them about fasting, we teach them about meditation, we teach them about scripture, but when that becomes the thing, it's like having faith in faith. Now you're putting your faith in those things, going, Well, if you do this, you're gonna be changed.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's what I wanted I was worried about.
speaker-0: But here's what we know about human beings. Eventually, when something that is ritual just becomes something you do, it loses its effectiveness. Not because it's bad, but because what we tend to do is we make those things habits, which are not always bad, but if they lose their meaning, if they lose the intentionality, an example of this. ⁓ And we and we see this, let's be clear this isn't a liturgical, this isn't traditional contemporary. Mm-hmm. How many times do we see people singing songs and not thinking about the song they're singing? They're just singing because the lyrics on the it
speaker-1: Yeah. What what level ⁓ exists though with ⁓ my mind goes to like the spirit is still involved in these practices. Yep. So how do we ⁓ like is it still com is it completely ineffective? Or is it I don't know. Right. Right
speaker-0: I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm saying let's not make them more than they are and let's not make them less than they are. Right. My problem is when we make them more than they are, more than they were supposed to be. Because now you can put them in ⁓ it's the it's like
speaker-1: It's it's it's yeah, it's it's the Pharisaic kind of mentality.
speaker-0: Yes. And so now all of a sudden if you're not doing them, there's a problem. And I'm like, well, wait, I know people who do them and it's led to no life change. Why? Because the spirit was not in it. Yeah. The whole and by the spirit I don't mean like you got spirit. I mean the Holy Spirit was not in it. They were not in community. They became religious things that they did. And here's what I think happened. And again, getting saved in a Baptist church that didn't do any of those things except for Christmas and Easter. ⁓ I think they overcorrected. That's why I said I I want to be careful. I'm not saying you're bad. We need things that give us a rhythm, right? When when I hand you a sheet music, if I hand you a piece of music, if I don't put a time signature on it, you won't know what the rhythm is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? So if I hand you just notes, but I don't say it's in three, four or four, four. Yeah. And you got the same paper, I do, and I've got the same paper, but there's no rhythm to it, we're not gonna play it the same. Even if we have you know. Quarter notes, three, I mean, we can guess, but we're we're gonna miss some things. So the purpose of those things is to help give us some structure. Yeah. But you can't be beholden to it. It can't be the ultimate thing because now you miss the music. ⁓ it's the difference between a a a master piano player, someone who is like a a master musician, and someone who just plays the notes.
speaker-1: Yeah. Someone's just following a structure, the other person knows the music.
speaker-0: And and in fact if you've ever listened to somebody who really knows music well, they'll finesse things, they'll do things with it. But you have to start off with the structure. And that's why again, I'm not saying it's they're wrong. Yeah. I'm saying that what we if we're not careful, we become so obsessed with the structure that we don't actually teach people how to play the music, how to play the song. Yeah.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ you know, as we come to a conclusion for this episode, I think we we've talked a lot about the warning signs or like the ⁓ the possible things we might be missing if we're not attaching these rhythms of rest to our lives. But I think in our next episode, if you agree to this, I'd really love us to then step into what we're talking about here. Let's teach them the value. Yeah. Let's go over rest. Let's go over some of these rhythms. Let's let's show them this investment. that when they do choose to have value in these things that actually the bleed over into those things that they were tr they do value as well. Family, work, ⁓ play. Like golfing, great.
speaker-0: Play play is such an important part of the
speaker-1: That that these things, this investment of rest and rhythm ⁓ i it it increases the dividend.
speaker-0: And and I I want people to hear this. I am not knocking the liturgical calendar. I'm saying that a liturgical calendar does not guarantee change. It's a good structure, but just because somebody does something doesn't mean it's going to lead to life change. It's the same thing with reading the Bible or praying. The goal is the relationship with Christ. So and that's why I said when you were like, No, I know I need these things. The habits are important. Yeah. But it's because the habits are about forming a relationship. Yep. They're not just about, well, I've got these habits that I do. ⁓ I'll I'll I'll end with this and and I I actually think it'd be great for us to talk about it. How do we create rhythm in our life that Feels like balance, but it's not worried about balance. That feels like margin, but isn't worried about margin. Does that make do you see the like because if if you hear a really good song, ⁓ I don't so certain types of jazz I don't like because it's just noise. Like you know what a fugue is? Like when things are just put it up and everything's going and nobody's playing anything. There's some people like, dude, do you hear all the notes? And I'm like, I hear all the notes. I don't enjoy it. A f a great musician can enjoy it. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but man, when you listen to a really good jazz player who just knows w when to leave space because they feel it, it feels balanced. Even though it's not, there's an imbalance. It's ⁓ it's the same thing like, you know, the video stuff. There are balances and there's color balances, all these different things that come in. And I think if we can teach people that the goal of rest And and I'll end with this. The goal is not to rest from your work, it's to work from your rest. That is the pri rest is supposed to be the fuel that allows you to to work well. But what most of us do is we work, work, work, work, work, work, and then we rest poorly, and then we wonder why we're so fatigued and tired. Because we're not actually working from our rest, we're resting from our work. And the goal, if you look at Adam and Eve, and let's get back to this next week when we talk. What's the very first thing that Adam did after he was created? He rested. He didn't go right to work. Literally, he's created on the sixth day, seventh day he rests with the Lord, which shows that we are meant to be human beings, not human doings. And so that rest, which is why we need church, not for the message, not even for the worship, but for the community. And then yes, so that we come into God's word, so that we have alignment. And this is where the things like liturgical calendars, churches that do that, that can be helpful, but it can't be ultimate. Same thing with sermon series and and and tr and contemporary services, like if we're not careful, we'll get rid of rhythms altogether because we're just constantly trying to we're striving for the next experience. And so I think we build these in, but how do we do them? ⁓ And so yeah, dude, I think I think this has I think this is something that could change people if they actually were to really look at it and change their language. But also recognize like let God be the one who determines rest. And when you get rid of the God who you are meant to be still with, ⁓ no wonder life feels frenetic. And because the why is different, we are called to do the business of God, but not the busyness of God. And so going about the Lord's business, like it's it's a fun phrase to say, but what does that mean? It means that God has purpose for us, it has calling. So fun is part of that, family's part of that, our jobs are part of that, ⁓ community's part of that.
speaker-1: Awesome. Yeah. I I think this would be a valuable conversation moving forward. Well, hey, thank you guys for listening. ⁓ follow us on our socials, which all can be found in the description underneath this, and ⁓ as well as submit your questions to podcast at Zionclear Lake.org. We'd love to hear from you. See you next week.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
