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The issue I've always had with retirees and helping them spend money and doing all the things that I've done for decades in a lot of cases is just getting the retirees to actually dream a little bigger, right?
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Quite often they undercut what they're capable of doing and affording.
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And so what happens is they leave stuff off the table.
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So I used to get it a lot in the past, and this is what this is where I really notice it is I would go through the whole process, deliver a plan, tell them they have more money than they ever realized they had.
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And then they'd sit there and go, Well, had I known NET, I would have told you this.
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And do you think we can add this?
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And it's like they'd start modifying and you'd watch the dreams grow after the planning process was done because they finally knew how much money they had, or they would make tweaks and just things like that, right?
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So part of this was actually going, okay, how do I get more of that to come out in what I realized is they just have a hard time dreaming big enough.
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So I rebranded the discovery meeting as a blue sky session.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
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As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
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It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
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Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
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You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
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You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations, drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
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Whether it's mastering discovery meanings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
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Oh yeah, hi.
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I should probably introduce myself.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
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My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
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Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
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Let's dive in.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm joined by my friend Adam Chapman, founder of Yes Money.
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I'm ever here with screaming, yes, Adam.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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Thank you for agreeing to come on.
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Yeah, no, I'm super excited.
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And ever since we met a couple of years ago, I've been looking forward to coming on here and having a conversation.
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Yeah, and look, today's the day, my friend.
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It is here.
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And I will say to those of you listening, Adam and I did a pre-record meeting a few weeks ago prior to this.
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And we could have made a recording out of that.
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It was so good.
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I wish that we had saved that.
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It was so good.
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And so I have no doubts that today is going to be a great conversation because Adam, I wanted you here.
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And something that, you know, we have been trying to do with this podcast is starting to bring on advisors, bring on the actual people who are on the ground, like in the trenches, doing financial planning work, but more than just financial planning work, the human side of financial planning work and really understanding, okay, like what are you seeing that works?
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How is this landing on clients?
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What are still some of the struggles?
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And so thank you for coming on and kind of giving us like a peek behind the curtain.
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I'm thanking you kind of in advance here.
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I have no doubts that for those that are listening, they're gonna leave with some really great takeaways there.
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And with that, let's talk about what we're talking about today.
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All the great things that, yeah, all the great things that you're doing.
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Today, we're gonna look at understanding client behavior and designing really a planning process that actually facilitates it.
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I think that from my work, and Adam, I'd like to hear kind of your thoughts on this too.
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I think that this is one of the most difficult challenges for advisors, especially those who are human first or like life planners, is understanding that behavior.
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I understand, maybe they do understand, right, a little bit about what's going on.
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But then how do I design a plan that in a planning process that facilitates that?
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What are your thoughts there?
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Well, there are so many people now that are taking an interest in BFI, right?
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Like how humans react with money, how do we work with them and elicit better behavior from them or change the behavior that they're doing?
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All these things are incredibly difficult.
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And I think one of the biggest challenges for planners who are trying to be a little bit more human first is modifying some of the things that were built for a different purpose, right?
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Like your data intake, your projections, and then your recommendations would be a typical sort of financial planning process, but it doesn't always do the greatest job of weaving in that human side.
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So I think one of the challenges for people who are trying to get better at this behavioral finance thing, if we want to call it that, is just how do you actually incorporate it into the systems that you're using and how do you modify this stuff that's been around for a while and go, let's tweak this.
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We've got to make this work a little bit better with a slightly different angle than what it was originally designed to do, right?
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And that's where I think part of the conversation for this sort of became really interesting, is it's something I've been chipping away at for probably close to 15 years at this point.
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I've been in the industry for 20, but started bumping into behavioral challenges with the retirement spending challenge, right?
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Which is something I started working with long before people even realized there was an issue here.
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In fact, I used to have to prove to people that retirees would struggle to spend.
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It seems to be a little bit more common knowledge now, right?
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And this is that just a great example of behavioral finance moving to the forefront of financial planning conversations.
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But then you still really struggle to take some of those human-first conversations and the behavioral change and questions that we have to work through and put it in a system you can repeat.
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That's a very difficult thing, especially if that system wasn't built for it.
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And I think that's that's one of the big challenges that I think this will be fun to discuss.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's not to that point.
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I think that what is becoming clearer, more spoken about, more out there is that financial planning is a behavioral profession, uh, which is fantastic.
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It's like kind of check one, right?
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Can we first recognize this?
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And it's like, whoo, yes, okay, all right, we're starting to get there, right?
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And knowing the numbers, it's really not enough.
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That's a given.
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That's table stakes.
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Giving someone good advice also doesn't mean they're gonna follow that advice.
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I know that has been a headache for many advisors, oh, for years, right?
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The knowing and doing gap.
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I think, you know, you and I have talked about this too.
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And I think that where I know we're gonna be getting into is a lot of the processes that advisors use, they're still really designed around, you know, gathering information, identifying problems, building the plan, presenting recommendations and kind of just a hope and a prayer that clients are gonna act on them.
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And maybe even more than a hope and a prayer, maybe an assumption there.
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So let's kind of start here.
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If an advisor says behavior is one of the most important parts of financial planning, what should they expect to see in their planning process that really proves that?
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It's a great question.
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And I would say part of it, and I think on this angle, like if I were looking at it as an outside sort of third party looking at another advisor's process, one of the things I would be looking for is just even in the language of their planning process, right?
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Because if you look at the traditional sort of advisor thing, and this is on a lot of advisors and financial planning website, it's like here's our intake call, you know, document collection, discovery meeting, recommendation meeting, and then annual review.
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And it's it's always in that sort of little circuit.
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But I find language when we start talking about things like behavioral finance, one of the things we actually have to do in a lot of cases is rebrand a lot of what these things are.
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They need to be named something different because a lot of these things are actually the technical versions that we named them so that we understood our own process.
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Yeah, it's true.
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Right?
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Not necessarily the things that they should be named for what the clients have to do when they show up.
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And you know, my Michael Kitsus always makes fun of me when I do some of the work for his Kitz's summits as an ambassador, because I'm very picky on language.
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And it's amazing how changing a word or changing something like that can actually change just the whole way clients and advisors come to the table.
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And I'll give you one of the best examples because this was probably the first thing I ever changed in the process to get to a slightly different narrative.
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Because a lot of planners have to have people sign an engagement agreement.
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I don't love the connotation of it's okay, client, you are hiring us to do X, Y, Z.
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So you are engaging us to do work for you.
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So the first word I changed years ago was I called these collaboration agreements instead.
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I love that.
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Just because I love the simplicity of, you know what, that's what financial planning actually is.
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And it even changes the way that you would write how that sounds, how you describe it, how you view what the engagement actually is.
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So it actually even changes the client's behavior because they're even coming in with a totally different wording and presumption of what this work together actually is.
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It actually sets the stage of you have your work to do, I have my work to do.
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And it's the two of us coming together and collaborating that's going to get you the best result.
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If you just hire us and you do absolutely nothing and then we do all kinds of work, you're probably not going to get a really good financial plan.
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True.
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Collaboration really seems to work better and just a simple wording change, but then you will find it filters through the document.
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If you label something collaboration agreement and then read it, it needs to sound like a collaboration agreement too.
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So simple changes like that, when we're looking at sort of the process, can often start with just let's look at what you're calling some of these meetings and some of these documents and say, is there a better way to name it or do it to get us better behavioral results as clients work through it?
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Right.
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And collaboration, I think, is a great place to start, but there's obviously other areas I would rebrand as well as in this whole process.
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I like the collaboration aspect, shockingly, right?
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Like the therapist likes the word collaboration.
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Yes.
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Um, but I I like it for all the things that you said.
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And when I was practicing clinically, part of my consent forms, you know, I was bound by HIPAA.
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So there's, you know, I don't, and I know you guys are have your own, you know, two, but you know, there's a little wiggle room that I had there, but explicitly would state like that this, that this is a relationship and that, you know, we are both in this together.
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And I know that I did have the word like collaboration.
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It is a collaborative process, right?
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That's what therapy really is.
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It's you and me giving input, right?
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And I think that that word, it just lands on clients.
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It lands on people just in a way that says, like, oh, okay, from a power dynamic place, right?
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Like we're partners in this, right?
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It's not just you telling me what to do, and then I have to go and do it, right?
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It is, oh, I get a say in this.
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I can really help to craft what this plan is and have input.
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So listen, you don't have to sell me on why the word collaboration is a great word to use.
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I think that it's fantastic for all the reasons that you stated and just the psychological impact there, like the meaning, even if it's subconscious, right?
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It just feels it feels better.
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I'm curious, like when you started to make some of those changes, like to language, languaging, starting with the collaboration agreement, even then some of your meeting like names, like what did you notice?
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Either like for yourself or with clients.
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Yeah, I think it was both sides.
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Cause again, as soon as you change collaboration, right, and you pick something like that, it's also inserting some of your own beliefs into what that is, right?
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So you speak more confidently to this is what I believe financial planning to be about.
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This is what I think it is.
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And it's amazing how just having your own connection to that word or that brand, as opposed to taking the industry phrases and go, what does this mean for me?
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What do I want my branding of these things to be?
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You get really good at articulating it.
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It's no longer just a templated thing that the industry handed you.
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It's your version of it based off of the kind of work that you do.
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And then it starts to trickle into other things.
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Like the collaboration agreement, I would say, you know, clients weren't super enthused.
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Like, you know, I don't know if they necessarily notice a difference themselves, but definitely the type of people I attract with that kind of conversation because my belief on what it is is so deep.
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They understand this is a two-way street and working environment.
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And they're gonna have work to do.
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And like, we're gonna have some tough conversations.
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We're going to, as I often have to say to them too, like, we're gonna make you uncomfortable at certain times when we talk about certain subjects, right?
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But that is part of the collaboration.
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It's not just let's talk about the numbers.
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It's we're gonna work on conversations together.
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And so once I started doing that, and I I realized how taking and getting away from the industry terminology and putting my own spin on it really actually helped me as much as it did the clients.
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When I started looking at some of the other angles, right?
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And going, okay, what else in these systems do I think have a name that doesn't work?
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The next one, and this is this is probably the biggest change where there is a much deeper result that comes from this from the client perspective, but the discovery meeting.
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That was the one that I targeted next.
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Okay, tell me a little bit about why that is.
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So coming into crossing over into the dark side of financial services, right?
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I've heard like discovery meeting.
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It has always been a bit of an enigma to me, though, because I'm like, what does it even mean?
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So why, why was this for you like kind of that next one?
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Yeah, well, because it's one of those things.
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I think discovery is a term.
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It's like, okay, we're gonna go into a meeting and we're gonna discover as much as we can about the clients, right?
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And we're gonna go dig, we're right.
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We collect all the paperwork document, maybe you do it a bit before, a bit after.
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But the idea is through that discovery process is to discover them.
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Yeah.
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The problem is, at least for me, because I work mostly with retirees, that telling them, okay, or at least having them think that they're coming in to be discovered, right?
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Okay, right.
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It's just feels awkward as soon as you say that.
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It's like, okay, you're gonna come into this meeting and you know.
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You just got really uncomfortable.
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I got really uncomfortable.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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It's not like horrible, right?
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But as a client, that's what you're sitting there doing on the other side of this, is going, oh, what are we doing in this meeting, right?
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And so at least for me, the the issue I've always had with retirees and helping them spend money and doing all the things that I've done for decades, in a lot of cases, is just getting the retirees to actually dream a little bigger.
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Quite often they undercut what they're capable of doing and affording.
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And so what happens is they leave stuff off the table.
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So I used to get it a lot in the past, and this is what this is where I really notice it is I would go through the whole process, deliver a plan, tell them they have more money than they ever realized they had.
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And then they'd sit there and go, Oh, well, had I known that, I would have told you this.
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And do you think we can add this?
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And it's like they'd start modifying and you'd watch the dreams grow after the planning process was done because they finally knew how much money they had, or they would make tweaks and just things like that, right?
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So part of this was actually going, okay, how do I get more of that to come out in what I realized is they just have a hard time dreaming big enough.
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So I rebranded the discovery meeting as a blue sky session, right?
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So this is what my clients know it as.
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And it really is it's like, okay, so now just by changing the wording, their purpose and when we say, okay, when because people are, what kind of what do I need to prep to go into this meeting?
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Right.
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It's like, I don't want you to prep anything, but we're gonna go through a very long conversation and just get you dreaming a little bit bigger, get you talking about what things might need to look like in retirement, what you might like to spend money on, but come to this meeting prepared to dream a little bit.
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And that's that's actually all they need to know to come into that meeting prepared.
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Now they know exactly what they're showing up to do and what I'm gonna take them through without needing to go too far.
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And I quite often I say, like, if you want to sit and chat a little bit, the two of you, and talk about what you think dreaming bigger might actually look like, please go right ahead.
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But otherwise, this is what we're gonna do in that meeting.
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And to sort of your question earlier about the collaboration agreement and like what effect does it have on clients when you make changes like this?
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This was the meeting where I noticed it the most because what I get clients asking for now, they don't ask for a new financial plan, even though we redo them quite often.
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When they'll come up and they'll say, Adam, can we do another one of those blue sky sessions?
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Oh, I love that.
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They want that, right?
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And it's it's because they know what they're showing up for, they know they struggle with something, and they're going, this now branded right with the right process underneath, is now something they actually want.
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That it's almost like they don't even want the financial plan that comes after.
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They want that meeting.
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They want the clarity, right?
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Like I'm like what comes up for me hearing you talk about this blue sky meeting is you know, leaving like with clarity, right?
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.160
And good gosh, oh Molly.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:00.960
Like that clarity is one of those things that when you've got it, like you just know how good it feels, right?
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:06.079
Instead of like being in limbo or feeling lost or just living in uncertainty, right?
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:07.200
And and wondering.
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.400
So I could see where more blue sky, right?
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.440
Hashtag more blue sky meetings, we would want.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:26.240
But there's also a fascinating psychological thing that I've noticed over the years is that when clients, especially when they're existing clients and they know that you know their financial situation, the blue sky actually shifts a little bit.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:32.319
Because usually when you're doing it with a new client, they don't know how much of like you haven't done the full financial plan yet.
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:45.440
But when you do it for clients that you've already had for a few years and you do a new blue sky session, one of the reasons why they like it so much is because a lot of people when they get dreaming and they start going, okay, well, can we do this?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.240
Can we do this?
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:46.960
Right.
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.759
If there's no one to put that check of like, well, have you gone too big?
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.920
And a lot of them are afraid of going too big and then being disappointed that they can't do it.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:09.920
So when you're sitting in the room while they're dreaming and you're just letting them go, and you're not saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't afford that, if you're not doing that, then that's an automatic permission that they're okay to dream the thing that they're dreaming.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:15.200
And they need that safe space for just someone there who knows their financial situation.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:20.960
And it's like, it's kind of like, I mean, I don't love this analogy, but it's kind of like a two-year-old testing their boundaries, right?
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.279
Like, yeah, okay, can we go further?
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:24.319
Like, what about this?
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:25.519
Can we do this?
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.319
Can I do how much further can we push this?
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:35.680
And they're doing it because they still don't understand where the bounds of their own finances start and stop in retirement.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.160
And so those blue sky sessions become really important for them.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:52.880
And I can just sit there and let them even have conversations facilitated by me, but you can watch them push ideas back and forth because a lot of couples don't necessarily want to do all the same things together in retirement.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.440
So it's even like, can we have separate dreams?
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.359
And those cost different kinds of money.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.680
You know, doing those kind of things in a space where they can talk about it.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:09.359
Because sometimes I think when those conversations happen behind the scenes, if they don't think they can afford them, it's easy for each other to shut it down.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.359
Whereas if they do it in front of me.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.440
Or defer, or even be like, no, no, you'll see some that have people pleasing tendencies, right?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.039
That they're like, no, no, just we'll do what he wants.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:21.920
He wants this.
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.599
Don't worry about mine, right?
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.240
Because they don't think they can afford to do both.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:26.799
Right.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:27.359
Right.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:43.599
So so sitting there with someone who knows their finances actually lets them dream bigger and more precisely and do so in a way that when they come up with it, they know they can afford it because the advisor hasn't objected to it, saying, ah, that that that's actually out of your price range.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:49.440
I like this point here around kind of doing it with them and as the advisor, like being in the room there.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.759
And as someone who has had the privilege of sitting in on client meetings, listening to you know, their advisor say, Hey, that dream.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.119
That thing that you wanted, like it actually, we can actually do it.
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:03.599
Yeah.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:04.559
It's possible.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:13.759
And just watching the client like experience that and to take it in and soak it in and process it even like um a little bit.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:24.079
I mean, I used to think that in therapy, when I was doing couples therapy, and we would work through a particular intervention and it would go well.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.640
Well, in the sense of like there would be some kind of connection there.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.720
I used to think like that was such a great feeling.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:32.559
And it was, I won't dismiss that.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:38.400
And watching clients experience this, like, oh, my dream, this thing that I want, it can come true.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.160
Like I'll still be fine.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.720
It provides a very similar experience for me.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.759
Like there's a lot of just satisfaction.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.119
It gives me a tremendous amount of joy, uh, but also like fire, like that.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.720
This is the kind of work, right?
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.240
And this is the reason, right?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:59.839
Why we're doing financial planning is to help clients in these, like experience more of these moments, right?
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.640
To be able, it's like that Ty Pennington show.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:17.440
Do you remember like the dream house where they would like renovate the house and then the family would like come back and see like their house has been like renovated and they would like open their eyes and like say and then be like, oh my gosh, right?
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:31.839
Maybe not quite the same like emotional experience, but it reminds me a little bit of just that, like watching someone, you know, who very much has worked hard and has you know, unrealized like dream, like being able to say, Yes, like this can happen.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:33.200
This can happen for you.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:34.559
How is it okay?
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.319
Talk about for you a little bit.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.119
I'm hearing how blue skies like kind of changed like clients and how it's helpful.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.680
What's it done for you, though, as as a planner?
00:23:44.079 --> 00:24:04.640
Well, as soon as you start to do that and you realize, like, as you just described, how good it feels to have people dream a little bit bigger in front of you, like that now meant that as soon as you rebrand to a blue sky session and the goal is to get retirees dreaming more, then your next questions are like, okay, well, how do I do that better?
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:05.119
Right.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.640
Like that now becomes the objective of the meeting.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.440
And now it doesn't even feel like a discovery meeting, so to speak, right?
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:19.519
But you have a different angle of asking questions and just how you roll through that meeting.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:32.160
And the funny thing is, and you know, I know a lot of people won't do this this uh length, but pretty much these meetings for me are bare minimum two and a half hours, though I did have one go as long as six hours.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.240
So they typically sit between two and a half and three and a half.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.640
But it's it's my approach in that meeting.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.319
It's not just straight goal setting.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.519
We're going further back.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:41.839
Okay.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:50.640
We're doing a lot of stuff because my planning process in general goes into a lot of detail and we actually like handwrite our plans kind of thing.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:25:09.359
So there's a lot more we do in this blue sky session, but the main thing is to set a target that they perhaps haven't actually set before so that we can then also do and figure out what the price tag needs to be so that we can actually do the math part.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:10.000
Got it.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:10.880
That makes sense.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:11.359
Yeah.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:23.920
So for me, like I find these meetings to be some of the most rewarding meetings out of the whole career, I would actually even say, because you really get to learn a lot about people and the people you're working with.
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:31.200
But there's also something fun about getting to know someone really well in a very short period of time that you didn't know before.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:46.640
So the reason for the length on this, too, is it's amazing how much you can get to know someone and their relationship with money, their relationship with their family, their relationship with work and retirement and everything in a two and a half hour span.
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:51.039
And then you do actually come out of that meeting going, okay, I think I know these people.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.519
I haven't met someone exactly like this before.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:26:01.359
Because the funny thing is, I I used to believe when I started doing this, working with retirees and only retirees, because that's pretty much all I've done for 20 years.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:07.039
I thought, okay, eventually you'll start seeing the same kind of things over and over and over again.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:13.440
And you can systematize and get better and just just make things shorter and easier.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:20.000
And then every time I do one of these meetings, it's like, well, they're kind of similar, but they're also very different.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.200
And even different over generations, too.
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:35.599
Like I've done these meetings now for retirees who were part of the greatest generation, silent generation, baby boomers, and now the Gen Xers who I have retiring.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:44.799
And it's it's just interesting to see how even these blue sky sessions are different between the generations because of the questions that we ask, because of what we do.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.799
And I just find that kind of stuff fascinating.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:47.519
Oh, yeah.
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:56.480
We might have to nerd out on some of those differences at some point uh here next time we chat, because I would be very curious to know just what those are.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.160
Can I give you one fun one?
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.480
Because I think I find this one fascinating.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.480
So I love, because this is part of the goal setting thing, and there's probably a whole conversation here too.
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:20.640
But one of the things I have the hardest issue with, and this is where, again, trying to get people dreaming, I had to tinker a lot with the questions, the order, how you do it, that you can't just come in and ask the dream question out front.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:26.319
It's kind of like handing someone a blank page and saying, okay, write an essay.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
It's so much easier when there's stuff on the page already.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.200
So what I tend to do in this meeting is we look backwards first.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:41.359
So we go back and have a conversation of how everything's happened and how they got to here before we look forward.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.119
So one of the first questions I ask, especially with couples, and I love going in and it's like, because they don't know it's coming.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.160
It's like, okay, tell me about your first date.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:50.960
Yes.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.599
Right?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:59.279
And I look straight at the guy, and it's surprising because a lot of the wives most of the time think that they're not going to remember the first date.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:08.240
But the men pretty much always, they may not remember the date, like the actual day or anniversaries, but they remember the first date.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:12.319
The deed in the details, like a lot of the contextual details.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.359
I am a sucker for a meat cue story.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.759
That is like I want, I want to know.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.039
And I think that you're right.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.240
Like the details there most do most do remember.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:30.720
So the baby boomers, first dates, pretty much every single one that I have, movies.
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.279
They went to the movies and they remember the movie.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:38.799
They remember maybe going for ice cream afterwards or going to some sort of uh Did they share a pop?
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.160
Did they share a pop?
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:40.960
Yep.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.119
But they remember the movie that they went to for their first date.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.160
I love that.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.319
Whereas like newer generations, right?
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:49.440
Like that's not a thing.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.240
Like that's not really a first date thing anymore, right?
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:52.799
No.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.680
But that is that's where a lot of the baby boomers met each other.
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:57.839
Yeah.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.680
If they're still that, you know, high school sweetheart or college or whatever.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:02.319
Yeah.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.119
My grandparents was uh coke in a moon pie.
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:06.079
They shared.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.000
Part of me is like, oh gosh, that is like you did well.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:17.200
But I think it's it's sweet.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.279
Oh, life out on the farm, you know.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.400
Let's just drink a bunch of sugar for our first date and eat like marshmallow like just process.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.680
Oh yeah.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.440
Uh, but yeah, it's okay.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:30.799
Um, no judgment.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.759
No judgment.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:32.079
Yeah.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:42.559
Okay, Adam, you've talked about language and how powerful language is and what we're in terms of a planning like process and how we talk about things, how we even like describe meetings.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.960
We got into your blue sky meeting here.
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:57.200
I would love to know a little bit, maybe more or further, I guess, about what else, like kind of would you change about the traditional financial planning process?
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:08.480
If the goal wasn't really just to create a good plan, but it really was truly designed to help the client behave differently with money or just feel differently about money.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:17.680
Yeah, I think that comes into probably I think the most underexplored and underexamined area is actual what's the final delivery?
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.200
What's the final thing you're giving them?
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:25.039
Because we have that one-page financial plan that Carl Richards kind of wrote a book on and is quite popular.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.720
You've got the hundred-page projection or plan that's kind of existed for a very long time.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.279
I find both of them to be a little bit less than perfect.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:42.000
I think the one page was a big improvement because it offers some clarity, but I still really struggle to call it a plan.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.240
To me, it's far closer to a dashboard.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.440
Like it's like an executive summary of the hundred-page version.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:47.920
Yeah.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:56.640
So some of the areas I think that financial planning has yet to really well define is like, what is a plan that actually works?
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.240
And I'm still in the process, I think, of really nailing this down.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:05.759
But for us, what we do, it's more of a 20-page sort of handwritten plan.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.319
Like it's not a projection, it's taking the conversation.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.880
So all the stuff we pulled out of the blue sky session, what do we know about them, right?
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.359
Not just their goals, but what are their beliefs that may or may not be holding them back?
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:27.279
That it could be something as simple, they still believe in active management and timing the markets.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:37.920
Okay, I have to, in a plan then, write something, a convincing argument that says, okay, this is why you might want to change this, right?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519
I can't just put a projection down.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.200
I can't put things that are just graphs and numbers.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.079
I have to explain with an actual argument.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:51.039
I have to help them change that belief into something different.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:07.200
And I think that is actually where the largest struggle in getting clients to execute a plan actually sits, is being able to identify those things in the planning process and then picking them out before you write the plan.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:14.319
So you go, okay, these are the higher order beliefs I need to change in order to move someone from here over to here.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:20.400
And there's lots of different examples that you can run through, both technical and behavioral, right?
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.079
Just even the question of enough.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:27.519
Okay, let's let's talk it through because there are different angles of enough.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:33.119
And quite often the question is coming from a lot of different places in their history, right?
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:40.319
So, how do you then create something in a plan that changes a behavioral belief?
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.480
Like the technical ones are almost easier.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:51.599
That's where you see a lot of the YouTube content on, you know, I'm Canadian, so we have different things, but like, you know, 401ks are horrible or whatever that sort of, okay, great.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:58.000
If someone comes in with that kind of language and belief, you as the planner then have to reshape that.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:10.400
But let's say someone comes in with a scarcity mindset, you still have to use some kind of argumentation to shift that belief and help them pull that out.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.799
And that's actually, I find that to be more difficult using numbers.
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:25.039
So you have to use their story, their background, their things, and help them work through an argument that says, okay, maybe this isn't serving me well anymore.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.839
It served me to this point, but not now.
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:29.599
Do I understand why?
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.759
Do I understand where it's coming from?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:42.799
Which almost digs a lot deeper into sort of the therapy kind of and counseling approaches of reshaping something that isn't a number or a technical belief.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:47.920
It's a behavioral or human belief that needs to adapt.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:52.640
And this is the way that I I guess try to talk it through when we do the recommendations and stuff.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:01.759
It's I I think some of these things are actually so ingrained in people by the time they hit us, especially on the spending and saving thing, that it's actually really difficult to actually change it.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:04.960
But we don't actually have to ignore it or try to change it.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:17.199
We just have to acknowledge it's there, the kind of ways that it's holding them back, so that we can say, okay, that means in these instances, when you go to do these couple of things, you're gonna feel this sucker tug.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:22.480
Let's just make sure we're aware of it when it's happening and figure out a way to do it anyways.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:36.000
And so I think like when you're looking at sort of the process of financial planning, I still think there's actually a lot of room and wiggle room to explore what the actual plan is and what it should be doing.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:36.559
Yeah.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:45.119
That would be the area that I still want to see a much better version and better definition of like, I don't want a projection, I don't want graphs.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:51.760
And especially for me working with retirees, there's actually a lot of data because one of the issues I have to deal with is capacity decline.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:52.239
Sure.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:00.400
So that's the other issue I have to deal with with presenting information, is it has to be convincing, but it also has to be incredibly simple.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:07.360
Because I think, and people don't love to hear this data, but typically around the age of 50 is when you start to enter some form of cognitive decline.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.199
Please don't say that ever again to me.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:19.599
But once you know that, okay, anyone who's working with retirees, like you have to realize they are in a state of cognitive decline from the moment they show up.
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:21.119
And they can still be really with it.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:26.159
It doesn't mean they're they're having issues the moment you see them, but they are slowing down.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:41.119
So I find even in the financial planning process, it's looking at your client base and the way that you rebrand and reassess these things is to actually look at your client and say, what are the things that my particular client group is struggling with?
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.480
If your clients don't struggle to dream bigger, then I wouldn't label it a blue sky session.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:54.639
I think you shared an example actually in our pre-call that uh Jake does, where he has meetings just to help people get stuff done.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:02.480
Yes, we can't say that word because I'm not putting the E explicit, but yes, it is the get bleep done meeting.
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:03.280
Yes.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:08.480
Because he's identified a problem with his client base, that that's one of the things they struggle with.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:13.840
So he's made specific meetings to do the thing that they struggle to do the most.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.880
And I think that's the really cool thing about doing this from a behavioral perspective with your own firm and your own clients is identifying those things that are difficult and then working through the whole process to go, how do we rebrand and restructure everything to help them with that behavioral element that they're really struggling with?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:39.679
And then that's, I think, where it even starts to work into that financial plan of how do we develop that better?
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:46.239
How do we rework that to make that work better for our clients who struggle with these processes?
00:36:46.480 --> 00:37:00.159
So that would be the area that I would be encouraging a lot of people, because I I think after this kind of a conversation, there's probably a lot of quick ones that people can pick off and rebrand and rework some of the language they use around some of these meetings.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:09.199
But then the financial planning part is like the actual plan itself, is one of the areas that I think is the toughest and best one to put a lot of effort in.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:13.519
And that would be where I would I would hope people would target once they do a few of these things.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:19.280
Maybe they could collaborate with other like-minded professionals there.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:27.039
Well, as we are kind of wrapping things up here, you've given a lot of fantastic suggestions here.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:41.599
But if if someone is listening and they're like, hey, this Adam guy is really cool, and I would actually like to start to think about my process a little bit more thoughtfully, what are maybe one or two tips that you would give to somebody who's looking at redesigning their own financial planning process?
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:42.239
Yep.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:50.239
First thing I would do is sit with your clients or just sit with the kind of clients that you're trying to replicate and the ones that you typically solve problems for.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:58.960
And I find people can actually do this pretty quickly and just go, okay, like when we have meetings, what's the thing they struggle with before or after the meeting?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.960
And then go, okay, then we need some kind of a meeting in our planning process that helps them do that thing.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.840
It can be the busy people who don't have time to get stuff done.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.519
But then I remember I used to work a little bit in the family market.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:19.920
And it's like sometimes they just even didn't sit to take like family time to talk about the future of the family.
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.280
And there were a few times like we would do it with the kids, right?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:32.239
And it's like, because what it did, it's just like having a couple sit there and go, okay, let's have structured family time and just talk about things that are important to you.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.039
And it's amazing.
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:36.079
Like when you get kids involved in those kind of conversations.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:43.440
Now, I also do other elements that include things like giving conversations, right?
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.920
Because that's a thing that I have to do.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:52.719
But I would look for those kind of problem sets of like, okay, what are the things that that our clients really struggle with?
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.039
And can we create a space for them to do that thing?
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:02.159
And then just sit and think about a way you could rebrand it or work with the language on it.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:08.400
So I would I would identify the client issues that they struggle with, execution, dreaming, whatever that is.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:20.880
And then just look at your financial planning process and just start to go, okay, what are some better words we can use that describe what these things actually are, but not for us, the financial planner, for them, the client.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:21.280
Right.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:31.840
And if you can use language that is meant for them, not for us, you'll find it really starts to shape a completely different planning process for both sides.
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:38.159
Because you can get more articulate if that's actually the word that we need to use, what does that mean we have to do in the meeting?
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:47.440
Those would be the two things I would look at is framing and rebranding that process in a way that it's language that's meant for them.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:48.480
I love that.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:40:01.119
And I think that's the end result people are looking at when you're doing this, because that is what actually has the ripple effect to the questions and the process and everything else you would develop underneath it, all starts with that, right?
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:07.199
What do we need them doing when they come into these sessions or whatever step of the plan it is?
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.159
Let's use language that is meant for them.
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:11.199
Fantastic.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:11.840
Awesome.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:12.719
All right, Adam.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:21.119
If people want more Adam Chapman in their life, yes, if they want more Adam Chapman in their life, please share it with us.
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:22.719
Uh, where can they connect with you?
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.079
Yeah, LinkedIn's probably the best spot to connect.
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.119
I don't have a whole lot of other places I publish and do.
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:34.000
Well, I mean, there'll be a book coming out next year, but that's on a totally different topic and everything like that.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.000
But LinkedIn's the place to follow me.
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:36.719
Perfect.
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:39.039
We'll make sure that we include that in the show notes.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:44.239
And we will send an open invitation for when the book does release to come back and share with everyone.
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:45.280
That'll be a fun one.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.679
About it, I would love that.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:53.280
Well, thank you to all of you for allowing Adam and I into your ears and into your mind today.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:57.599
It's a part of your week that you don't have to give us, but you're choosing to.
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:02.559
And for that, I think I speak for Adam and myself and saying we're both incredibly grateful.
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.559
If this conversation resonated with you, I would also love to keep the conversation going.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:14.639
You can find me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:16.880
You can also find me on YouTube.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.920
I don't think I've talked a lot about that on here, but we are getting into YouTube, my friends.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:26.719
And so you can get out and follow us on YouTube at Beyond the Plan Solutions.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.360
You can check us out there where Meg and I record.
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:34.800
I think they're cool videos, you can tell me, but nonetheless, we hope that they're at least helpful if they're not cool.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:38.480
You can also head over to our website and sign up for our monthly newsletter.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:44.559
And soon to be coming out in 2027 will be the practice.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:51.199
Now, if you want to know more about the practice, you're gonna have to shoot me an email for right now to get on our waiting list to learn more.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:42:04.000
But what I will tell you is that the practice is a 12-month training program that Meg and I have been working on that is centered on helping advisors develop the relational skills needed.
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:08.800
A lot of what Adam was talking about here today are things that we bring into this.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:12.880
And so this is a 12-month training that you are not gonna want to miss.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:16.400
So shoot me an email if it's something that you're interested in finding out more about.
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:21.920
You'll be seeing that come out on all of the socials, all of the things here later in the year.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:30.719
If you would like to follow the show, please check us out wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, all the things will be there.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.960
Go ahead and hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode like this one.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.760
And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.639
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.039
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:56.960
I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.639
If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:08.079
Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:16.239
For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:23.280
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00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.800
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00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:29.280
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00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:33.679
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00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:39.679
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:11.359
The issue I've always had with retirees and helping them spend money and doing all the things that I've done for decades in a lot of cases is just getting the retirees to actually dream a little bigger, right?
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:15.839
Quite often they undercut what they're capable of doing and affording.
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.399
And so what happens is they leave stuff off the table.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:27.760
So I used to get it a lot in the past, and this is what this is where I really notice it is I would go through the whole process, deliver a plan, tell them they have more money than they ever realized they had.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.679
And then they'd sit there and go, Well, had I known NET, I would have told you this.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:33.119
And do you think we can add this?
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:43.520
And it's like they'd start modifying and you'd watch the dreams grow after the planning process was done because they finally knew how much money they had, or they would make tweaks and just things like that, right?
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:54.799
So part of this was actually going, okay, how do I get more of that to come out in what I realized is they just have a hard time dreaming big enough.
00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:59.600
So I rebranded the discovery meeting as a blue sky session.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:05.439
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:11.920
As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:17.599
It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:22.000
Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:31.920
You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:43.200
You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations, drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:59.040
Whether it's mastering discovery meanings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:00.239
Oh yeah, hi.
00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.000
I should probably introduce myself.
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:10.240
I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:16.319
My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:20.080
Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:21.599
Let's dive in.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.680
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:35.039
I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm joined by my friend Adam Chapman, founder of Yes Money.
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.199
I'm ever here with screaming, yes, Adam.
00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:38.800
I'm so glad you're here.
00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:40.639
Thank you for agreeing to come on.
00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:42.400
Yeah, no, I'm super excited.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:47.919
And ever since we met a couple of years ago, I've been looking forward to coming on here and having a conversation.
00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.319
Yeah, and look, today's the day, my friend.
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:51.280
It is here.
00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:59.520
And I will say to those of you listening, Adam and I did a pre-record meeting a few weeks ago prior to this.
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:02.639
And we could have made a recording out of that.
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.120
It was so good.
00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:06.960
I wish that we had saved that.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:07.599
It was so good.
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:13.840
And so I have no doubts that today is going to be a great conversation because Adam, I wanted you here.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:36.319
And something that, you know, we have been trying to do with this podcast is starting to bring on advisors, bring on the actual people who are on the ground, like in the trenches, doing financial planning work, but more than just financial planning work, the human side of financial planning work and really understanding, okay, like what are you seeing that works?
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:38.080
How is this landing on clients?
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:39.599
What are still some of the struggles?
00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:44.319
And so thank you for coming on and kind of giving us like a peek behind the curtain.
00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.639
I'm thanking you kind of in advance here.
00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.400
I have no doubts that for those that are listening, they're gonna leave with some really great takeaways there.
00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:56.560
And with that, let's talk about what we're talking about today.
00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.680
All the great things that, yeah, all the great things that you're doing.
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:07.919
Today, we're gonna look at understanding client behavior and designing really a planning process that actually facilitates it.
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:13.280
I think that from my work, and Adam, I'd like to hear kind of your thoughts on this too.
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:24.720
I think that this is one of the most difficult challenges for advisors, especially those who are human first or like life planners, is understanding that behavior.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.399
I understand, maybe they do understand, right, a little bit about what's going on.
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But then how do I design a plan that in a planning process that facilitates that?
00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:35.839
What are your thoughts there?
00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:40.160
Well, there are so many people now that are taking an interest in BFI, right?
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Like how humans react with money, how do we work with them and elicit better behavior from them or change the behavior that they're doing?
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.639
All these things are incredibly difficult.
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And I think one of the biggest challenges for planners who are trying to be a little bit more human first is modifying some of the things that were built for a different purpose, right?
00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:18.399
Like your data intake, your projections, and then your recommendations would be a typical sort of financial planning process, but it doesn't always do the greatest job of weaving in that human side.
00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:35.759
So I think one of the challenges for people who are trying to get better at this behavioral finance thing, if we want to call it that, is just how do you actually incorporate it into the systems that you're using and how do you modify this stuff that's been around for a while and go, let's tweak this.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:42.720
We've got to make this work a little bit better with a slightly different angle than what it was originally designed to do, right?
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:53.759
And that's where I think part of the conversation for this sort of became really interesting, is it's something I've been chipping away at for probably close to 15 years at this point.
00:05:53.920 --> 00:06:00.959
I've been in the industry for 20, but started bumping into behavioral challenges with the retirement spending challenge, right?
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.600
Which is something I started working with long before people even realized there was an issue here.
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:10.480
In fact, I used to have to prove to people that retirees would struggle to spend.
00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.279
It seems to be a little bit more common knowledge now, right?
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And this is that just a great example of behavioral finance moving to the forefront of financial planning conversations.
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But then you still really struggle to take some of those human-first conversations and the behavioral change and questions that we have to work through and put it in a system you can repeat.
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:37.120
That's a very difficult thing, especially if that system wasn't built for it.
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:41.120
And I think that's that's one of the big challenges that I think this will be fun to discuss.
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Yeah.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:43.759
I mean, it's not to that point.
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I think that what is becoming clearer, more spoken about, more out there is that financial planning is a behavioral profession, uh, which is fantastic.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:56.240
It's like kind of check one, right?
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Can we first recognize this?
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And it's like, whoo, yes, okay, all right, we're starting to get there, right?
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.319
And knowing the numbers, it's really not enough.
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:05.439
That's a given.
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:06.800
That's table stakes.
00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:11.120
Giving someone good advice also doesn't mean they're gonna follow that advice.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.279
I know that has been a headache for many advisors, oh, for years, right?
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.120
The knowing and doing gap.
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.000
I think, you know, you and I have talked about this too.
00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:42.000
And I think that where I know we're gonna be getting into is a lot of the processes that advisors use, they're still really designed around, you know, gathering information, identifying problems, building the plan, presenting recommendations and kind of just a hope and a prayer that clients are gonna act on them.
00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.120
And maybe even more than a hope and a prayer, maybe an assumption there.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.439
So let's kind of start here.
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:58.160
If an advisor says behavior is one of the most important parts of financial planning, what should they expect to see in their planning process that really proves that?
00:07:58.480 --> 00:07:59.439
It's a great question.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:13.439
And I would say part of it, and I think on this angle, like if I were looking at it as an outside sort of third party looking at another advisor's process, one of the things I would be looking for is just even in the language of their planning process, right?
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:30.720
Because if you look at the traditional sort of advisor thing, and this is on a lot of advisors and financial planning website, it's like here's our intake call, you know, document collection, discovery meeting, recommendation meeting, and then annual review.
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.519
And it's it's always in that sort of little circuit.
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:43.519
But I find language when we start talking about things like behavioral finance, one of the things we actually have to do in a lot of cases is rebrand a lot of what these things are.
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:51.759
They need to be named something different because a lot of these things are actually the technical versions that we named them so that we understood our own process.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:52.639
Yeah, it's true.
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:53.120
Right?
00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:58.879
Not necessarily the things that they should be named for what the clients have to do when they show up.
00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:07.519
And you know, my Michael Kitsus always makes fun of me when I do some of the work for his Kitz's summits as an ambassador, because I'm very picky on language.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:16.480
And it's amazing how changing a word or changing something like that can actually change just the whole way clients and advisors come to the table.
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:25.440
And I'll give you one of the best examples because this was probably the first thing I ever changed in the process to get to a slightly different narrative.
00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:29.120
Because a lot of planners have to have people sign an engagement agreement.
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.519
I don't love the connotation of it's okay, client, you are hiring us to do X, Y, Z.
00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:38.559
So you are engaging us to do work for you.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:44.720
So the first word I changed years ago was I called these collaboration agreements instead.
00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:45.600
I love that.
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.879
Just because I love the simplicity of, you know what, that's what financial planning actually is.
00:09:51.279 --> 00:10:01.200
And it even changes the way that you would write how that sounds, how you describe it, how you view what the engagement actually is.
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:11.360
So it actually even changes the client's behavior because they're even coming in with a totally different wording and presumption of what this work together actually is.
00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:17.279
It actually sets the stage of you have your work to do, I have my work to do.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.519
And it's the two of us coming together and collaborating that's going to get you the best result.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:29.440
If you just hire us and you do absolutely nothing and then we do all kinds of work, you're probably not going to get a really good financial plan.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:29.919
True.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:37.679
Collaboration really seems to work better and just a simple wording change, but then you will find it filters through the document.
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:44.879
If you label something collaboration agreement and then read it, it needs to sound like a collaboration agreement too.
00:10:45.200 --> 00:11:03.759
So simple changes like that, when we're looking at sort of the process, can often start with just let's look at what you're calling some of these meetings and some of these documents and say, is there a better way to name it or do it to get us better behavioral results as clients work through it?
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:04.080
Right.
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:12.320
And collaboration, I think, is a great place to start, but there's obviously other areas I would rebrand as well as in this whole process.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.080
I like the collaboration aspect, shockingly, right?
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.480
Like the therapist likes the word collaboration.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:18.799
Yes.
00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:24.000
Um, but I I like it for all the things that you said.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.799
And when I was practicing clinically, part of my consent forms, you know, I was bound by HIPAA.
00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:45.200
So there's, you know, I don't, and I know you guys are have your own, you know, two, but you know, there's a little wiggle room that I had there, but explicitly would state like that this, that this is a relationship and that, you know, we are both in this together.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.320
And I know that I did have the word like collaboration.
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.320
It is a collaborative process, right?
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:51.840
That's what therapy really is.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.639
It's you and me giving input, right?
00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:00.000
And I think that that word, it just lands on clients.
00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:06.639
It lands on people just in a way that says, like, oh, okay, from a power dynamic place, right?
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.320
Like we're partners in this, right?
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:13.360
It's not just you telling me what to do, and then I have to go and do it, right?
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.519
It is, oh, I get a say in this.
00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:20.879
I can really help to craft what this plan is and have input.
00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:26.879
So listen, you don't have to sell me on why the word collaboration is a great word to use.
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:35.600
I think that it's fantastic for all the reasons that you stated and just the psychological impact there, like the meaning, even if it's subconscious, right?
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:37.759
It just feels it feels better.
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:48.799
I'm curious, like when you started to make some of those changes, like to language, languaging, starting with the collaboration agreement, even then some of your meeting like names, like what did you notice?
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.120
Either like for yourself or with clients.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.200
Yeah, I think it was both sides.
00:12:53.279 --> 00:13:01.919
Cause again, as soon as you change collaboration, right, and you pick something like that, it's also inserting some of your own beliefs into what that is, right?
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:08.399
So you speak more confidently to this is what I believe financial planning to be about.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.399
This is what I think it is.
00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:20.879
And it's amazing how just having your own connection to that word or that brand, as opposed to taking the industry phrases and go, what does this mean for me?
00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.320
What do I want my branding of these things to be?
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:26.879
You get really good at articulating it.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.799
It's no longer just a templated thing that the industry handed you.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.240
It's your version of it based off of the kind of work that you do.
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.120
And then it starts to trickle into other things.
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.919
Like the collaboration agreement, I would say, you know, clients weren't super enthused.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:54.320
Like, you know, I don't know if they necessarily notice a difference themselves, but definitely the type of people I attract with that kind of conversation because my belief on what it is is so deep.
00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.720
They understand this is a two-way street and working environment.
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.279
And they're gonna have work to do.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.840
And like, we're gonna have some tough conversations.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:11.600
We're going to, as I often have to say to them too, like, we're gonna make you uncomfortable at certain times when we talk about certain subjects, right?
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.840
But that is part of the collaboration.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.039
It's not just let's talk about the numbers.
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.159
It's we're gonna work on conversations together.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:30.080
And so once I started doing that, and I I realized how taking and getting away from the industry terminology and putting my own spin on it really actually helped me as much as it did the clients.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.799
When I started looking at some of the other angles, right?
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.840
And going, okay, what else in these systems do I think have a name that doesn't work?
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:49.679
The next one, and this is this is probably the biggest change where there is a much deeper result that comes from this from the client perspective, but the discovery meeting.
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.320
That was the one that I targeted next.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.639
Okay, tell me a little bit about why that is.
00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:00.000
So coming into crossing over into the dark side of financial services, right?
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.080
I've heard like discovery meeting.
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:06.960
It has always been a bit of an enigma to me, though, because I'm like, what does it even mean?
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.720
So why, why was this for you like kind of that next one?
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.720
Yeah, well, because it's one of those things.
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:13.840
I think discovery is a term.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.679
It's like, okay, we're gonna go into a meeting and we're gonna discover as much as we can about the clients, right?
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:21.519
And we're gonna go dig, we're right.
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.039
We collect all the paperwork document, maybe you do it a bit before, a bit after.
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.519
But the idea is through that discovery process is to discover them.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:30.000
Yeah.
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:40.159
The problem is, at least for me, because I work mostly with retirees, that telling them, okay, or at least having them think that they're coming in to be discovered, right?
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:41.360
Okay, right.
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.519
It's just feels awkward as soon as you say that.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:47.039
It's like, okay, you're gonna come into this meeting and you know.
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.039
You just got really uncomfortable.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.240
I got really uncomfortable.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:50.639
Yes.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:50.799
Okay.
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.240
It's not like horrible, right?
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:58.159
But as a client, that's what you're sitting there doing on the other side of this, is going, oh, what are we doing in this meeting, right?
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:11.519
And so at least for me, the the issue I've always had with retirees and helping them spend money and doing all the things that I've done for decades, in a lot of cases, is just getting the retirees to actually dream a little bigger.
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.559
Quite often they undercut what they're capable of doing and affording.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.200
And so what happens is they leave stuff off the table.
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:29.679
So I used to get it a lot in the past, and this is what this is where I really notice it is I would go through the whole process, deliver a plan, tell them they have more money than they ever realized they had.
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.159
And then they'd sit there and go, Oh, well, had I known that, I would have told you this.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:35.600
And do you think we can add this?
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:46.480
And it's like they'd start modifying and you'd watch the dreams grow after the planning process was done because they finally knew how much money they had, or they would make tweaks and just things like that, right?
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:59.840
So part of this was actually going, okay, how do I get more of that to come out in what I realized is they just have a hard time dreaming big enough.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.799
So I rebranded the discovery meeting as a blue sky session, right?
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.000
So this is what my clients know it as.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:17.680
And it really is it's like, okay, so now just by changing the wording, their purpose and when we say, okay, when because people are, what kind of what do I need to prep to go into this meeting?
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:18.000
Right.
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:35.200
It's like, I don't want you to prep anything, but we're gonna go through a very long conversation and just get you dreaming a little bit bigger, get you talking about what things might need to look like in retirement, what you might like to spend money on, but come to this meeting prepared to dream a little bit.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:39.039
And that's that's actually all they need to know to come into that meeting prepared.
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:46.079
Now they know exactly what they're showing up to do and what I'm gonna take them through without needing to go too far.
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:54.720
And I quite often I say, like, if you want to sit and chat a little bit, the two of you, and talk about what you think dreaming bigger might actually look like, please go right ahead.
00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:57.440
But otherwise, this is what we're gonna do in that meeting.
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:06.319
And to sort of your question earlier about the collaboration agreement and like what effect does it have on clients when you make changes like this?
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:17.599
This was the meeting where I noticed it the most because what I get clients asking for now, they don't ask for a new financial plan, even though we redo them quite often.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.079
When they'll come up and they'll say, Adam, can we do another one of those blue sky sessions?
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:23.519
Oh, I love that.
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:24.960
They want that, right?
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:37.359
And it's it's because they know what they're showing up for, they know they struggle with something, and they're going, this now branded right with the right process underneath, is now something they actually want.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.880
That it's almost like they don't even want the financial plan that comes after.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:42.079
They want that meeting.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:43.759
They want the clarity, right?
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:51.920
Like I'm like what comes up for me hearing you talk about this blue sky meeting is you know, leaving like with clarity, right?
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.160
And good gosh, oh Molly.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:00.960
Like that clarity is one of those things that when you've got it, like you just know how good it feels, right?
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:06.079
Instead of like being in limbo or feeling lost or just living in uncertainty, right?
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:07.200
And and wondering.
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.400
So I could see where more blue sky, right?
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.440
Hashtag more blue sky meetings, we would want.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:26.240
But there's also a fascinating psychological thing that I've noticed over the years is that when clients, especially when they're existing clients and they know that you know their financial situation, the blue sky actually shifts a little bit.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:32.319
Because usually when you're doing it with a new client, they don't know how much of like you haven't done the full financial plan yet.
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:45.440
But when you do it for clients that you've already had for a few years and you do a new blue sky session, one of the reasons why they like it so much is because a lot of people when they get dreaming and they start going, okay, well, can we do this?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.240
Can we do this?
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:46.960
Right.
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.759
If there's no one to put that check of like, well, have you gone too big?
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.920
And a lot of them are afraid of going too big and then being disappointed that they can't do it.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:09.920
So when you're sitting in the room while they're dreaming and you're just letting them go, and you're not saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't afford that, if you're not doing that, then that's an automatic permission that they're okay to dream the thing that they're dreaming.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:15.200
And they need that safe space for just someone there who knows their financial situation.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:20.960
And it's like, it's kind of like, I mean, I don't love this analogy, but it's kind of like a two-year-old testing their boundaries, right?
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.279
Like, yeah, okay, can we go further?
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:24.319
Like, what about this?
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:25.519
Can we do this?
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.319
Can I do how much further can we push this?
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:35.680
And they're doing it because they still don't understand where the bounds of their own finances start and stop in retirement.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.160
And so those blue sky sessions become really important for them.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:52.880
And I can just sit there and let them even have conversations facilitated by me, but you can watch them push ideas back and forth because a lot of couples don't necessarily want to do all the same things together in retirement.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.440
So it's even like, can we have separate dreams?
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.359
And those cost different kinds of money.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.680
You know, doing those kind of things in a space where they can talk about it.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:09.359
Because sometimes I think when those conversations happen behind the scenes, if they don't think they can afford them, it's easy for each other to shut it down.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.359
Whereas if they do it in front of me.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.440
Or defer, or even be like, no, no, you'll see some that have people pleasing tendencies, right?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.039
That they're like, no, no, just we'll do what he wants.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:21.920
He wants this.
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.599
Don't worry about mine, right?
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.240
Because they don't think they can afford to do both.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:26.799
Right.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:27.359
Right.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:43.599
So so sitting there with someone who knows their finances actually lets them dream bigger and more precisely and do so in a way that when they come up with it, they know they can afford it because the advisor hasn't objected to it, saying, ah, that that that's actually out of your price range.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:49.440
I like this point here around kind of doing it with them and as the advisor, like being in the room there.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.759
And as someone who has had the privilege of sitting in on client meetings, listening to you know, their advisor say, Hey, that dream.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.119
That thing that you wanted, like it actually, we can actually do it.
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:03.599
Yeah.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:04.559
It's possible.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:13.759
And just watching the client like experience that and to take it in and soak it in and process it even like um a little bit.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:24.079
I mean, I used to think that in therapy, when I was doing couples therapy, and we would work through a particular intervention and it would go well.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.640
Well, in the sense of like there would be some kind of connection there.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.720
I used to think like that was such a great feeling.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:32.559
And it was, I won't dismiss that.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:38.400
And watching clients experience this, like, oh, my dream, this thing that I want, it can come true.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.160
Like I'll still be fine.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.720
It provides a very similar experience for me.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.759
Like there's a lot of just satisfaction.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.119
It gives me a tremendous amount of joy, uh, but also like fire, like that.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.720
This is the kind of work, right?
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.240
And this is the reason, right?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:59.839
Why we're doing financial planning is to help clients in these, like experience more of these moments, right?
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.640
To be able, it's like that Ty Pennington show.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:17.440
Do you remember like the dream house where they would like renovate the house and then the family would like come back and see like their house has been like renovated and they would like open their eyes and like say and then be like, oh my gosh, right?
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:31.839
Maybe not quite the same like emotional experience, but it reminds me a little bit of just that, like watching someone, you know, who very much has worked hard and has you know, unrealized like dream, like being able to say, Yes, like this can happen.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:33.200
This can happen for you.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:34.559
How is it okay?
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.319
Talk about for you a little bit.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.119
I'm hearing how blue skies like kind of changed like clients and how it's helpful.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.680
What's it done for you, though, as as a planner?
00:23:44.079 --> 00:24:04.640
Well, as soon as you start to do that and you realize, like, as you just described, how good it feels to have people dream a little bit bigger in front of you, like that now meant that as soon as you rebrand to a blue sky session and the goal is to get retirees dreaming more, then your next questions are like, okay, well, how do I do that better?
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:05.119
Right.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.640
Like that now becomes the objective of the meeting.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.440
And now it doesn't even feel like a discovery meeting, so to speak, right?
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:19.519
But you have a different angle of asking questions and just how you roll through that meeting.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:32.160
And the funny thing is, and you know, I know a lot of people won't do this this uh length, but pretty much these meetings for me are bare minimum two and a half hours, though I did have one go as long as six hours.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.240
So they typically sit between two and a half and three and a half.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.640
But it's it's my approach in that meeting.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.319
It's not just straight goal setting.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.519
We're going further back.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:41.839
Okay.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:50.640
We're doing a lot of stuff because my planning process in general goes into a lot of detail and we actually like handwrite our plans kind of thing.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:25:09.359
So there's a lot more we do in this blue sky session, but the main thing is to set a target that they perhaps haven't actually set before so that we can then also do and figure out what the price tag needs to be so that we can actually do the math part.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:10.000
Got it.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:10.880
That makes sense.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:11.359
Yeah.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:23.920
So for me, like I find these meetings to be some of the most rewarding meetings out of the whole career, I would actually even say, because you really get to learn a lot about people and the people you're working with.
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:31.200
But there's also something fun about getting to know someone really well in a very short period of time that you didn't know before.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:46.640
So the reason for the length on this, too, is it's amazing how much you can get to know someone and their relationship with money, their relationship with their family, their relationship with work and retirement and everything in a two and a half hour span.
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:51.039
And then you do actually come out of that meeting going, okay, I think I know these people.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.519
I haven't met someone exactly like this before.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:26:01.359
Because the funny thing is, I I used to believe when I started doing this, working with retirees and only retirees, because that's pretty much all I've done for 20 years.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:07.039
I thought, okay, eventually you'll start seeing the same kind of things over and over and over again.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:13.440
And you can systematize and get better and just just make things shorter and easier.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:20.000
And then every time I do one of these meetings, it's like, well, they're kind of similar, but they're also very different.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.200
And even different over generations, too.
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:35.599
Like I've done these meetings now for retirees who were part of the greatest generation, silent generation, baby boomers, and now the Gen Xers who I have retiring.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:44.799
And it's it's just interesting to see how even these blue sky sessions are different between the generations because of the questions that we ask, because of what we do.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.799
And I just find that kind of stuff fascinating.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:47.519
Oh, yeah.
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:56.480
We might have to nerd out on some of those differences at some point uh here next time we chat, because I would be very curious to know just what those are.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.160
Can I give you one fun one?
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.480
Because I think I find this one fascinating.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.480
So I love, because this is part of the goal setting thing, and there's probably a whole conversation here too.
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:20.640
But one of the things I have the hardest issue with, and this is where, again, trying to get people dreaming, I had to tinker a lot with the questions, the order, how you do it, that you can't just come in and ask the dream question out front.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:26.319
It's kind of like handing someone a blank page and saying, okay, write an essay.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
It's so much easier when there's stuff on the page already.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.200
So what I tend to do in this meeting is we look backwards first.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:41.359
So we go back and have a conversation of how everything's happened and how they got to here before we look forward.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.119
So one of the first questions I ask, especially with couples, and I love going in and it's like, because they don't know it's coming.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.160
It's like, okay, tell me about your first date.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:50.960
Yes.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.599
Right?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:59.279
And I look straight at the guy, and it's surprising because a lot of the wives most of the time think that they're not going to remember the first date.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:08.240
But the men pretty much always, they may not remember the date, like the actual day or anniversaries, but they remember the first date.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:12.319
The deed in the details, like a lot of the contextual details.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.359
I am a sucker for a meat cue story.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.759
That is like I want, I want to know.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.039
And I think that you're right.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.240
Like the details there most do most do remember.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:30.720
So the baby boomers, first dates, pretty much every single one that I have, movies.
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.279
They went to the movies and they remember the movie.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:38.799
They remember maybe going for ice cream afterwards or going to some sort of uh Did they share a pop?
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.160
Did they share a pop?
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:40.960
Yep.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.119
But they remember the movie that they went to for their first date.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.160
I love that.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.319
Whereas like newer generations, right?
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:49.440
Like that's not a thing.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.240
Like that's not really a first date thing anymore, right?
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:52.799
No.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.680
But that is that's where a lot of the baby boomers met each other.
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:57.839
Yeah.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.680
If they're still that, you know, high school sweetheart or college or whatever.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:02.319
Yeah.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.119
My grandparents was uh coke in a moon pie.
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:06.079
They shared.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.000
Part of me is like, oh gosh, that is like you did well.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:17.200
But I think it's it's sweet.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.279
Oh, life out on the farm, you know.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.400
Let's just drink a bunch of sugar for our first date and eat like marshmallow like just process.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.680
Oh yeah.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.440
Uh, but yeah, it's okay.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:30.799
Um, no judgment.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.759
No judgment.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:32.079
Yeah.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:42.559
Okay, Adam, you've talked about language and how powerful language is and what we're in terms of a planning like process and how we talk about things, how we even like describe meetings.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.960
We got into your blue sky meeting here.
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:57.200
I would love to know a little bit, maybe more or further, I guess, about what else, like kind of would you change about the traditional financial planning process?
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:08.480
If the goal wasn't really just to create a good plan, but it really was truly designed to help the client behave differently with money or just feel differently about money.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:17.680
Yeah, I think that comes into probably I think the most underexplored and underexamined area is actual what's the final delivery?
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.200
What's the final thing you're giving them?
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:25.039
Because we have that one-page financial plan that Carl Richards kind of wrote a book on and is quite popular.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.720
You've got the hundred-page projection or plan that's kind of existed for a very long time.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.279
I find both of them to be a little bit less than perfect.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:42.000
I think the one page was a big improvement because it offers some clarity, but I still really struggle to call it a plan.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.240
To me, it's far closer to a dashboard.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.440
Like it's like an executive summary of the hundred-page version.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:47.920
Yeah.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:56.640
So some of the areas I think that financial planning has yet to really well define is like, what is a plan that actually works?
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.240
And I'm still in the process, I think, of really nailing this down.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:05.759
But for us, what we do, it's more of a 20-page sort of handwritten plan.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.319
Like it's not a projection, it's taking the conversation.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.880
So all the stuff we pulled out of the blue sky session, what do we know about them, right?
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.359
Not just their goals, but what are their beliefs that may or may not be holding them back?
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:27.279
That it could be something as simple, they still believe in active management and timing the markets.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:37.920
Okay, I have to, in a plan then, write something, a convincing argument that says, okay, this is why you might want to change this, right?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519
I can't just put a projection down.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.200
I can't put things that are just graphs and numbers.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.079
I have to explain with an actual argument.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:51.039
I have to help them change that belief into something different.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:07.200
And I think that is actually where the largest struggle in getting clients to execute a plan actually sits, is being able to identify those things in the planning process and then picking them out before you write the plan.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:14.319
So you go, okay, these are the higher order beliefs I need to change in order to move someone from here over to here.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:20.400
And there's lots of different examples that you can run through, both technical and behavioral, right?
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.079
Just even the question of enough.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:27.519
Okay, let's let's talk it through because there are different angles of enough.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:33.119
And quite often the question is coming from a lot of different places in their history, right?
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:40.319
So, how do you then create something in a plan that changes a behavioral belief?
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.480
Like the technical ones are almost easier.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:51.599
That's where you see a lot of the YouTube content on, you know, I'm Canadian, so we have different things, but like, you know, 401ks are horrible or whatever that sort of, okay, great.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:58.000
If someone comes in with that kind of language and belief, you as the planner then have to reshape that.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:10.400
But let's say someone comes in with a scarcity mindset, you still have to use some kind of argumentation to shift that belief and help them pull that out.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.799
And that's actually, I find that to be more difficult using numbers.
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:25.039
So you have to use their story, their background, their things, and help them work through an argument that says, okay, maybe this isn't serving me well anymore.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.839
It served me to this point, but not now.
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:29.599
Do I understand why?
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.759
Do I understand where it's coming from?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:42.799
Which almost digs a lot deeper into sort of the therapy kind of and counseling approaches of reshaping something that isn't a number or a technical belief.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:47.920
It's a behavioral or human belief that needs to adapt.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:52.640
And this is the way that I I guess try to talk it through when we do the recommendations and stuff.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:01.759
It's I I think some of these things are actually so ingrained in people by the time they hit us, especially on the spending and saving thing, that it's actually really difficult to actually change it.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:04.960
But we don't actually have to ignore it or try to change it.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:17.199
We just have to acknowledge it's there, the kind of ways that it's holding them back, so that we can say, okay, that means in these instances, when you go to do these couple of things, you're gonna feel this sucker tug.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:22.480
Let's just make sure we're aware of it when it's happening and figure out a way to do it anyways.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:36.000
And so I think like when you're looking at sort of the process of financial planning, I still think there's actually a lot of room and wiggle room to explore what the actual plan is and what it should be doing.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:36.559
Yeah.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:45.119
That would be the area that I still want to see a much better version and better definition of like, I don't want a projection, I don't want graphs.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:51.760
And especially for me working with retirees, there's actually a lot of data because one of the issues I have to deal with is capacity decline.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:52.239
Sure.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:00.400
So that's the other issue I have to deal with with presenting information, is it has to be convincing, but it also has to be incredibly simple.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:07.360
Because I think, and people don't love to hear this data, but typically around the age of 50 is when you start to enter some form of cognitive decline.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.199
Please don't say that ever again to me.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:19.599
But once you know that, okay, anyone who's working with retirees, like you have to realize they are in a state of cognitive decline from the moment they show up.
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:21.119
And they can still be really with it.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:26.159
It doesn't mean they're they're having issues the moment you see them, but they are slowing down.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:41.119
So I find even in the financial planning process, it's looking at your client base and the way that you rebrand and reassess these things is to actually look at your client and say, what are the things that my particular client group is struggling with?
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.480
If your clients don't struggle to dream bigger, then I wouldn't label it a blue sky session.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:54.639
I think you shared an example actually in our pre-call that uh Jake does, where he has meetings just to help people get stuff done.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:02.480
Yes, we can't say that word because I'm not putting the E explicit, but yes, it is the get bleep done meeting.
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:03.280
Yes.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:08.480
Because he's identified a problem with his client base, that that's one of the things they struggle with.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:13.840
So he's made specific meetings to do the thing that they struggle to do the most.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.880
And I think that's the really cool thing about doing this from a behavioral perspective with your own firm and your own clients is identifying those things that are difficult and then working through the whole process to go, how do we rebrand and restructure everything to help them with that behavioral element that they're really struggling with?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:39.679
And then that's, I think, where it even starts to work into that financial plan of how do we develop that better?
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:46.239
How do we rework that to make that work better for our clients who struggle with these processes?
00:36:46.480 --> 00:37:00.159
So that would be the area that I would be encouraging a lot of people, because I I think after this kind of a conversation, there's probably a lot of quick ones that people can pick off and rebrand and rework some of the language they use around some of these meetings.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:09.199
But then the financial planning part is like the actual plan itself, is one of the areas that I think is the toughest and best one to put a lot of effort in.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:13.519
And that would be where I would I would hope people would target once they do a few of these things.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:19.280
Maybe they could collaborate with other like-minded professionals there.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:27.039
Well, as we are kind of wrapping things up here, you've given a lot of fantastic suggestions here.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:41.599
But if if someone is listening and they're like, hey, this Adam guy is really cool, and I would actually like to start to think about my process a little bit more thoughtfully, what are maybe one or two tips that you would give to somebody who's looking at redesigning their own financial planning process?
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:42.239
Yep.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:50.239
First thing I would do is sit with your clients or just sit with the kind of clients that you're trying to replicate and the ones that you typically solve problems for.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:58.960
And I find people can actually do this pretty quickly and just go, okay, like when we have meetings, what's the thing they struggle with before or after the meeting?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.960
And then go, okay, then we need some kind of a meeting in our planning process that helps them do that thing.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.840
It can be the busy people who don't have time to get stuff done.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.519
But then I remember I used to work a little bit in the family market.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:19.920
And it's like sometimes they just even didn't sit to take like family time to talk about the future of the family.
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.280
And there were a few times like we would do it with the kids, right?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:32.239
And it's like, because what it did, it's just like having a couple sit there and go, okay, let's have structured family time and just talk about things that are important to you.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.039
And it's amazing.
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:36.079
Like when you get kids involved in those kind of conversations.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:43.440
Now, I also do other elements that include things like giving conversations, right?
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.920
Because that's a thing that I have to do.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:52.719
But I would look for those kind of problem sets of like, okay, what are the things that that our clients really struggle with?
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.039
And can we create a space for them to do that thing?
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:02.159
And then just sit and think about a way you could rebrand it or work with the language on it.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:08.400
So I would I would identify the client issues that they struggle with, execution, dreaming, whatever that is.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:20.880
And then just look at your financial planning process and just start to go, okay, what are some better words we can use that describe what these things actually are, but not for us, the financial planner, for them, the client.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:21.280
Right.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:31.840
And if you can use language that is meant for them, not for us, you'll find it really starts to shape a completely different planning process for both sides.
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:38.159
Because you can get more articulate if that's actually the word that we need to use, what does that mean we have to do in the meeting?
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:47.440
Those would be the two things I would look at is framing and rebranding that process in a way that it's language that's meant for them.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:48.480
I love that.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:40:01.119
And I think that's the end result people are looking at when you're doing this, because that is what actually has the ripple effect to the questions and the process and everything else you would develop underneath it, all starts with that, right?
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:07.199
What do we need them doing when they come into these sessions or whatever step of the plan it is?
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.159
Let's use language that is meant for them.
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:11.199
Fantastic.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:11.840
Awesome.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:12.719
All right, Adam.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:21.119
If people want more Adam Chapman in their life, yes, if they want more Adam Chapman in their life, please share it with us.
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:22.719
Uh, where can they connect with you?
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.079
Yeah, LinkedIn's probably the best spot to connect.
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.119
I don't have a whole lot of other places I publish and do.
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:34.000
Well, I mean, there'll be a book coming out next year, but that's on a totally different topic and everything like that.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.000
But LinkedIn's the place to follow me.
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:36.719
Perfect.
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:39.039
We'll make sure that we include that in the show notes.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:44.239
And we will send an open invitation for when the book does release to come back and share with everyone.
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:45.280
That'll be a fun one.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.679
About it, I would love that.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:53.280
Well, thank you to all of you for allowing Adam and I into your ears and into your mind today.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:57.599
It's a part of your week that you don't have to give us, but you're choosing to.
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:02.559
And for that, I think I speak for Adam and myself and saying we're both incredibly grateful.
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.559
If this conversation resonated with you, I would also love to keep the conversation going.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:14.639
You can find me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:16.880
You can also find me on YouTube.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.920
I don't think I've talked a lot about that on here, but we are getting into YouTube, my friends.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:26.719
And so you can get out and follow us on YouTube at Beyond the Plan Solutions.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.360
You can check us out there where Meg and I record.
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:34.800
I think they're cool videos, you can tell me, but nonetheless, we hope that they're at least helpful if they're not cool.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:38.480
You can also head over to our website and sign up for our monthly newsletter.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:44.559
And soon to be coming out in 2027 will be the practice.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:51.199
Now, if you want to know more about the practice, you're gonna have to shoot me an email for right now to get on our waiting list to learn more.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:42:04.000
But what I will tell you is that the practice is a 12-month training program that Meg and I have been working on that is centered on helping advisors develop the relational skills needed.
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:08.800
A lot of what Adam was talking about here today are things that we bring into this.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:12.880
And so this is a 12-month training that you are not gonna want to miss.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:16.400
So shoot me an email if it's something that you're interested in finding out more about.
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:21.920
You'll be seeing that come out on all of the socials, all of the things here later in the year.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:30.719
If you would like to follow the show, please check us out wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, all the things will be there.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.960
Go ahead and hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode like this one.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.760
And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.639
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.039
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:56.960
I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.639
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00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:08.079
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00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:16.239
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