WEBVTT
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And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
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That's pretty evident.
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Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
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Which is amazing to me.
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Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
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Right.
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But at this point, it's not in the in the regulation.
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You know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships.
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Relationships.
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Try to avoid them.
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And that's because the more you become embroiled in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
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Absolutely.
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And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, where sometimes you have to say, you know, hard things.
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You have to deliver hard truths.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
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As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
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It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
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You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
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You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
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Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
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Oh yeah, hi.
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I should probably introduce myself.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
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My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
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Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
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Let's dive in.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm having a fangirl moment, although I'm not supposed to, but I am.
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I've already told her I'm having a fangirl moment.
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I am joined by Dr.
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Moira Summers, a clinical consultant and just really a fantastic human.
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So I don't want to spend any more time.
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I just want to get to like all the good things and let Moira do her thing and share everything.
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But Moira, first, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for being here with me.
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Thank you so much.
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It's just a joy.
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Wonderful, wonderful.
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So you and I have been chatting kind of before we hit record, just around it's like a good problem and a bad problem of all the great things we could talk about.
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And there are far too many things uh that we we could talk about, but sadly we had to pick one, at least for today's purposes.
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And so today, for those of you that are listening, today we're gonna be talking about misconduct.
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Now, I'm hoping that like some doom kind of like dreary music's not.
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Right, yeah, right, is like playing in the background.
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When I had Jim Grubman on, he I have to go back and listen, but he did like the Austin Powers, like the Pinkies like thing.
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I'm like imagining his face doing that right now.
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It's making me it's making me laugh.
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But I feel like there should be some kind of background music, right?
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When we talk about like ethical misconduct within at least financial uh advising.
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And so more, let's just kind of start maybe like there.
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When we talk about when advisors hear, you know, advisor misconduct.
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I would imagine, I don't know if it's two stories, but there's probably a story that comes to mind around who are like the advisors that might engage in misconduct.
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And I'm wondering if maybe we can just, you know, kind of distill some of this around what is misconduct first, and then we can just kind of go from there if that's okay.
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Sure.
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So this is all arising out of a project that I've been working on for the past couple of years, together with a solicitor colleague from the UK who's made her career prosecuting financial advisors.
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And now she runs a financial advising firm.
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And so, you know, we've we come at this from so many different levels.
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Uh, I'm not a financial advisor, but I'm the one who is often called upon to work with people who've been hauled up before the regulators and with their victims.
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And so together we kind of cover the waterfront in terms of understanding the victimology, the nature of the people who get embroiled in this and how it goes.
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And, you know, we could have taken any number of approaches to the problem, but our hearts were both really heavy for early career professionals and their managers, because those are the ones that really, really break our hearts.
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And so the book is very much oriented towards helping people in the field understand what it is that they're about to step into, like the whole territory, which is hugely varying, as you know, there are extraordinarily ethical firms, and there are places that just want to suck you dry and really just release you with no protections whatsoever.
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And sometimes the people who end up in real trouble have themselves been victimized by unsavory bosses.
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So our our hope in writing the book was both to protect those early career professionals by giving them a heads up, but also to help the firms that they will go into create cultures of integrity so that it's easier to surface mistakes, it's easier to make those, you know, visions, mission statements that can just be performative, uh, to make them really living guideposts.
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Sorry, that was a mixed metaphor, but to make them things that really make a difference in the life of the firm.
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Yeah, I which I have no doubts that you have succeeded in that hope, at least of appealing to that.
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I guess when I think about misconduct, granted, I'm not an advisor, um, but as a mental health professional, like we also have guidelines around what misconduct looks like.
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And anytime I've done any type of, you know, ethics, CEs, um like the do's and don'ts, or when I'm supervising pre-licensed clinicians and we talk about ethics, you know, there's the obvious things like don't sleep with your clients.
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That seems kind of like a no-brainer.
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There are some obvious things that come to mind around like the do's and the don'ts.
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But I know, and I would imagine that this is what you know, your work with this book is centered on.
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It's not just black and white, the do's and the don'ts.
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And so when we talk about, when you're talking about misconduct here, when you're thinking about that early professional, I mean, maybe I should ask, like, is it just the black and white kind of do's and don'ts?
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Or is it is it more nuanced here when you're thinking about misconduct?
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It is.
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Even, you know, you and I share this mental health background.
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And what we know is that you can put people through ethics courses and they can easily pass multiple choice exams on what is the right thing to do.
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But there have been some really interesting studies of mental health professionals, both again, early career and seasoned professionals.
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And when you put scenarios in front of them and say, I mean, juicy scenarios, like you're doing therapy with a client, and in the course of that therapy, they've they've told you that they're in embroiled in an extramarital affair, and you suddenly realize that the person they're having the affair with is your sister's husband.
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What is the right thing to do?
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Oh, it's so juicy.
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Right.
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And then, and so, you know, what's the right thing to do?
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It's like keep your mouth shut.
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And then what would you do?
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50% of new therapists and 30% of seasoned therapists say they would not do the right thing.
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Interesting.
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Know what to do, but they acknowledge they would not do it.
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They would interfere.
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And that's because ethics is both a head thing and it's a heart thing.
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Oh, that's such a great distinction.
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And we don't equip people for what to do when scenarios unfold before us that tug at our hearts and our values are pulled in one direction, and the codes of conduct are firmly in another direction, and we don't know what to do with those values conflicts, and we don't have anywhere to go with them.
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So anywhere we don't have people to talk to about them.
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I mean, it might even be not so much a values conflict, but just really strong emotions, Ashley.
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Like if I do the ethically right thing, like I don't step in, I'm not gonna act on insider information.
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Everybody else in this chain of information sharing is acting on it.
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I feel like a chump.
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I feel like the absolute loser that I'm the only one not getting rich off this.
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And so, who do you go to in that moment?
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And how do you disclose this dilemma?
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And where do you go for supervision and guidance?
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And how do you ask for it?
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Every one of the steps in that chain will determine the outcome.
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And I'll determine a different outcome.
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And so in our book, we have very juicy case studies of people who've done the right thing and people who've done the wrong thing, and talked about what happened when when they didn't have the right people to talk to and they didn't present the cases in the right way, because there is a right way and a wrong way to do this, and what and what you need to do in order to strengthen yourself to guard your boundaries.
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Because most of the people that we feature, and indeed most of the people who come before the regulators, and boy, did we spend a lot of time with them, most of the people who come before them are not this, you know, the slathering psychopaths.
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They are one of the original titles for our book, actually, was had the word stumble in it.
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Most of us stumble into misconduct, and then we slide, we slide across lines because we're not even aware.
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Yeah, that they're there.
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Would it be okay?
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You mentioned as part of the book, there are some case studies.
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And so just wondering, could we talk about maybe some of these?
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I don't want to call them like small, like these like smaller decision points, or what are maybe some of the ways from an ethical misconduct place?
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What are you seeing like in advisory practices that maybe some advisors wouldn't realize falls under like ethical misconduct?
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I'm just curious, like what you found and what you're seeing.
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Well, a great deal of it just has to do with the fact that most advisors believe that they know the products that they are being taught to sell.
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That they are qualified to sell them, they're qualified to give advice, that they know the clients, and that they're not facing any kind of conflict of interest or pressure to promote one product over the other.
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And we just know that in a great deal of cases that is not so.
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And when when advisors end up in the courtroom on the stand having to defend their knowledge of the product, very rapidly becomes clear that they've just been relying on a prospectus and they don't have the statistical knowledge to understand any of that stuff.
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They are not equipped.
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Yeah.
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Some are.
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I mean, if you have a CFA, you could lead the course.
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If you are working in a bank and you have one mutual fund license, this is a very different scenario.
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And so one of the challenges is, of course, the fact that who counts as a financial services professional?
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Let us count the waves.
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This could be somebody with a PhD in math who's developing cryptocurrency.
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This could be somebody who's just out of high school and is working, as I said, with one license, either to sell insurance or mutual funds, and is now client-facing in front of a bank and is being pressured to either sell that product or push a credit card.
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And so the fact is that people are often incentivized early on to do things that are not necessarily in clients' best interest.
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And that's heartbreaking.
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It is heartbreaking and scary.
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It is scary.
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As a consumer, like the more you get into this research, the more you go, oh my.
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Is the mattress stuffed with money really a bad idea?
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Right.
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Maybe, maybe grandma had it right all along.
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I mean, listen, more if I come knocking, please let me.
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I'm really good at gardening.
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I'm good at gardening.
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I can contribute in in that way.
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Yeah, I mean, it it is scary.
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And and it is scary, but you know, not that we want to just evoke fear, right?
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Come back, come back to sensibility.
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But the fact is that not only is it buyer beware, but it needs to be seller beware.
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That if you come into this area of work and it's a beautiful area to work in, you can do such good, and you can do well for yourself and for your own family.
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But you do have to be discerning and you do have to be aware of the whole array of the marketplace.
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And you've got to preferentially and deliberately navigate your way towards the ethical options.
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You know, that means educating yourself, knowing really how to understand and respect the limits of your own competency, seeking out the highest qualifications that you can get, networking, serving on professional committees so that you just understand what's out there and how can you be better?
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And who should you be hanging with in order to get there?
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Yeah, I think that's a great example, just around what you're offering your lane, like staying in your lane.
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I know some advisors, you know, CFP professionals, I've seen chatter, right, around offering tax advice, right?
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And knowing how to stay in your lane or even uh around estate.
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You're not an estate attorney.
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So just being mindful around just the advice that you give and what is your lane and what is not your lane there with clients, I guess in that vein, but also thinking about are there any like relational, you know, kind of ethics issues or like vulnerabilities that maybe advisors should also kind of keep in mind here.
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Sure.
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Well, that part of the way and uh part of the reason that we often stumble is because of an incredible desire to help.
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And so we, you know, we've got lots of different kinds of intellectual capital, many, especially if you come into it later in life and you've come from a uh a different career or you've got related life experience, you've been through a divorce, you've raised kids, you've helped a dementing parent navigate through.
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So you've got these adjacent areas of experience and sometimes frank expertise, but that wasn't what you were contracted to provide.
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And so being able to be clear about what the scope of your engagement is, and when are you offering something that is truly within the umbrella, the rubric of your engagement?
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And when are you saying, I'm I'm not speaking out of this, out of from my services as a CFP professional, but this is from my related area, or I can give you some guidance, but you know, I really do suggest that you follow up with an estate attorney on this, on this sort of thing.
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That is one of the most common things that ends up getting people in trouble with the regulators, uh, with their clients is giving out-of-scope advice.
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And it's you know, it's hardly ever maliciously motivated.
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It's it comes from a really good place.
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You're more likely to be triggered into doing that if you're tired.
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Um, if you're depleted in in in various ways, and if work is becoming the place where you get filled up more so than any other domain of your life.
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You know, sometimes sometimes home life is just hard.
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Okay, maybe I'm maybe I'm leaking here, but I think many people find home life hard at certain points.
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And in contrast, work life can just feel like, oh, I can plant my flag in the soil, and people think I'm competent and that I'm not an idiot, unlike my teenagers, and and they thank me for what I've done.
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And so you can yeah, you can end up kind of overindexing on that.
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And so when people start praising you and thanking you, or or demonstrating their appreciation for you, that is one of the the most common ways that people end up crossing the line.
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And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
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That's pretty evident.
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Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
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Which is amazing to me.
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Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
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Right.
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Right.
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But uh at this point it's not in the in the regulation, you know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships and try to avoid them.
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Um and that's because the more you become embroiled in in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
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Absolutely.
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And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, or sometimes you have to say hard things.
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You have to deliver hard truths.
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You mentioned about burnout and I'm home life maybe being difficult.
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I'm even thinking about advisors who are overworked.
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Uh, we're recording this right now in the spring.
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And so it's just past tax season, the deadline, and or surge meetings for those that practice, you know, surge meetings, not structure.
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And so I know just even in my own life, like sometimes when I'm go, go, go and like work, work, work, I'm not as I may not be as careful or thoughtful around things.
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I guess what I'm getting at here and what I'm wondering is are there some like early warning signs?
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Maybe for if someone's listening and they're like, I don't, I don't really know if like might be in any kind of trouble.
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I don't sell product.
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Um, I like my family, I guess.
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I think, I think life's easy.
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But like, are there maybe some early just signs that an advisor that we could offer them to where they might reflect on that and go, oh, I hadn't thought about maybe like with this situation, ooh, maybe I sh maybe that's a sign or maybe I should should do that.
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There are different signs for different kinds of risks, but just for this one, you know, for burnout, if you find that um it's just increasingly difficult to care, which is the opposite problem of what we've described.
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If your empathy is is down, um if you're feeling more noticing more contempt or disdain, that's an issue.
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Uh one of the categories that we talk about uh in terms of people who are at risk of misconduct is one that we've dubbed collapse incompetence.
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So these are people who may even have been kind of rock stars, but as the as more and more was placed on them, every bridge has a capacity, right?
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Every engineering student wears a ring to remind them of what happens when you exceed the capacity of a of a physical structure.
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It it would be good if we had some sort of ability to notice when we're Exceeding the capacity of our psychological capabilities, but we don't.
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And so what are those indicators?
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People staying late, people, you know, look at your calendar.
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Are you are you abandoning the things that you said when you've set out your New Year's resolution?
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Are you actually going to the gym?
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Are you using your gym membership?
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Are you keeping up with date night?
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If we did a food diary of the last, you know, 48 or 72 hours, would you be mortified if that got posted?
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.720
Yes.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.599
Yes, I would.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:35.920
I would personally coming off of just traveling.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:36.799
Yes, I would.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.319
What are the indicators that you've actually been attending to other domains of your life?
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.240
What does the calendar reflect?
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:46.880
That is often the the most important thing.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.119
But also, what would your what could your staff say about you?
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.920
What would what could your colleagues say about you?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:58.079
And more important, do you ever take the time to ask, how are we doing?
00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.279
How am I doing?
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:08.799
One of the recommendations that we have for managers is that you make a point of having a 30-minute conversation once a week with each of your direct reports.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.200
And if you can't do it that often, then how often could you do it?
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.720
Could you do it every other week?
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:22.319
Because that ability to just say, you know, really, how are you?
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:29.440
Many times over the course of a year allows this level of attunedness to develop.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:31.119
You start seeing the signs.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:41.759
And it's wonderful if you can create the kind of workplace culture where without shame or blame or judgment, people can just say, Hey, are you okay?
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.000
What could I take off your plate for you?
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:45.680
I noticed that.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:50.160
You mentioned earlier talking about, you know, with firms, right?
00:23:50.319 --> 00:24:09.039
We've been talking kind of probably more to like advisors as like an individual, but I do want to take a moment and kind of in that vein, like, let's talk a little bit about firms and firm culture and you know what type of firm culture allows for maybe that slippery slope.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.400
Is it the ones that aren't meeting regularly with their direct reports?
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:19.359
Um, are there other things that maybe allow for drift, I will say, to happen unintentionally?
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:21.920
Well, some of it is very intentional.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:32.960
We highlight a study that shows that some firms differentially hire advisors who've been let go in other firms for misconduct.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:40.160
They are preferentially recruiting people who've been fired for misconduct.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.319
What do you think that signals?
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.200
What do you think happens in those forms?
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:51.839
It like my eye, I kind of do like the eye twitch thing because it's like what?
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:53.599
I believe you, Moira.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.480
I believe you.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:59.039
And also simultaneously, I'm having like a WGF moment.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:00.799
Like exactly.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:01.920
Exactly.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:08.880
Not everybody shares the notion that ethical conduct is good in financial services.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.000
I think this is where me being very naive comes into play, right?
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.599
I I will own that.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:16.319
But yeah.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:27.920
I mean, just as a teaser, I I talk about one of my first experiences as a clinical supervisor involving an intern and cocktail wieners and a pool.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:36.559
And thinking that we all share certain standards and finding out that no, in fact, we don't.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:37.759
We don't.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.920
Uh, that things that we hold to be self-evident are not, in fact, self-evident.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:56.240
So that is why it's really important going back to those early career choices that who you choose to work for is one of the most consequential decisions you will ever make.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:06.319
Um, and if you start hearing people talk derisively about compliance departments, like red flag.
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:21.920
You know, if I know there's a whole sort of ironic or it's, you know, it's meant to be humorous, you know, the Department of Business Prevention, you know, all of these kinds of labels that get that get put on them.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:38.079
But if it's beyond just sort of a momentary disgruntlement and really there is a subculture of do your best to avoid these people and to hoodwink them, then get the heck out.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.839
Because you you are not saved by I was told to do it.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:27:05.759
You know, in the very first chapter of the book, we talk about um somebody who, you know, within the first year of beginning what seemed like a really promising career, he lost, you know, he was banned for a lifetime because he got hooked into a corrupt firm.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:28.720
And again, looking at the categories of people who end up involved in misconduct, there's the stubb stumblers, there's the collapse incompetence, which some which includes actually people who end up dementing, you know, they come down with, or people who become clinically depressed or develop alcohol and substance abuse.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:34.319
And if those people happen to be in solo practice, oh, it's so much harder to find them.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:46.160
But if they are in a firm and we've got a way of you know, you know, there's a psychologically safe way and mechanisms for reporting or whistleblowing, we've got to train each other on how to do that.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.400
How can you do that?
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:55.039
Again, the ethical, we know the ethical thing to do, we just aren't trained in how to do it.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.000
Yeah.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:05.920
That leads me to one of the, I guess it probably will likely end up being one of the last questions, sadly.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:06.559
Maybe not.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:06.960
I don't know.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:07.519
We'll see.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:08.240
We'll see.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.200
I don't want it to be.
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:23.920
But for advisors who are listening and like want to take this seriously, and and they are on the side of, I will say, I don't like to frame it as like good and evil or good and bad spectrum, but like they're on the side of like, I want to do right.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:30.640
I'd like to know a little bit more about, you know, my own maybe ethical blind spots.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:37.759
Apart from maybe your fantastic book that's going to be coming out, like what would you recommend for them?
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:38.720
Like, where can they go?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.240
Especially, I think, if they're in like smaller, like solo practices.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:56.640
I think one of the important things to do is to simply read the reports that come out from the regulators, whoever covers you and the regulatory, like look at those detailed case studies that come out.
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.319
What happened there?
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.119
Who is under investigation and why and how did that happen?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:08.079
But of course, those represent only the smallest, smallest percentage.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:29.359
One of the, when you talk about blind spots, Ashley, for me, one of the most sobering findings that comes from the field of behavioral ethics is the fact that we are unbelievably reluctant to consider the fact that it could be us.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.559
Nobody wants to think it could be them.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:41.359
You've heard of this better than average effect that all of us want to, you know, think that we're smarter than average and that we're better drivers than average and we're better, blah, blah.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.680
Well, it turns out that that better than average effect is on steroids for morality.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:55.200
And so, you know, if this book were about don't be a Bernie Madoff, it would be a really short book.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:07.519
Because, you know, we can give firms that care could screen people, screen people using standard uh psychological tests, just screen them for psychopathy, do a criminal records check.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.119
Bob's your uncle.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:11.200
There it is, done.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.720
But but it's so much more nuanced than that.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:28.160
And the fact is that the snakes in suits actually turn out to have very many of them turn out to have really good track records as CEOs, uh, and until they don't.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:42.240
And so when you look at studies of white-collar criminals, the ones who do get caught, the ones who do cross the lines, turns out most of them were uh not aware that they were crossing the line.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.400
That it was just impulsive.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.119
It wasn't this, hmm.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:55.039
I if I weigh the pros and the cons and the cost benefit, I'm gonna carefully think about whether this is worth it.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.640
Turns out much of it was just impulsive.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:05.519
It was responding to that, like, oh, somebody asked me to do that, or shoot, I'm not making targets.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:12.480
I'm I'm just gonna doctor the books, and then next month I'm gonna make it up, and no one will ever have to know.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.160
And then you get in deeper and deeper and deeper.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:26.960
What resonates me with me, I think most, and it takes me a little bit back to my own childhood, is my dad, my parents would say, like, you are not special.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:35.599
And in a sense of meaning that, like, you're not special enough to get out of something that, you know, or to be held accountable.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:47.519
So if you're getting pulled over, like for speeding, like what makes you think that you're so special that you can just, you know, get like you are not above anyone else was a lot of the messaging, you know, there.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:53.039
Now there's some downside to hearing ultimately precious, maybe anyway.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:57.839
Right.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:31:59.440
Right.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.839
This like dichotomy.
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:04.240
Like, I don't know if that's the reason I became a therapist.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:12.160
There's many reasons, I think, from there, but like that resonates with me because I just think like on a human level, like, you know, I see it, like I hear it.
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.240
It's like, well, that will never happen to me.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.799
I would never like do that going, you know, or I'm am better than average, as you were saying.
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:34.400
And so just from like a place of humility, I feel like just taking the time to pause, even and like asking just some thoughtful questions around how to process or how to, you know, how do we proceed like with this, or how do we, you know, navigate this?
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:38.640
Uh, I guess it sounds simple in my mind of like just pause.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.519
But I know going, you know, you said like people act on pulsity and they're just going and doing.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:45.200
So easier said than done.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:51.279
So yeah, well, it turns out that pausing is incredibly powerful.
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:57.039
It's the very same thing that protects us from cognitive cognitive bias, right?
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:01.519
Um, but as Daniel Kahneman said, nobody wants to do it, right?
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:09.359
And and the only way, you know, the best way to do it is to have a thinking partner who says, slow down there, buddy.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:10.720
Let's talk about this.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.839
If we were wrong about this, what would it look like?
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.559
What's the opposite of this thing look like?
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:16.960
Right?
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.359
Like there, there's a series of there are questions that you can regularly ask.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:28.400
And those can be not only to protect yourself against investing errors, but also against ethical errors.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.759
And you can do that, you can make that part of your firm culture.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.759
We do that, you know, in the in the firm that I'm part of.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:46.240
You know, I'm sure that there's some eye rolling going on behind my back, but you know, just just the other day we had the, well, is that the ethical thing to do here?
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:47.440
Are we sure?
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.720
What could it look like if we did that differently?
00:33:51.039 --> 00:34:00.559
And it does feel remarkable to to be able to come through the other side and say, you know, in the long run, this is who we want to be, this is who we want to show up.
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:22.480
But we do need training on how to be defiant sometimes, how to stand in the in the face of a culture that says, you know, in some cultures that say profit is the only is the highest and the only aim of this firm or of this of this culture.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:33.840
This is the only thing that we're supposed to be doing here is maximizing profit or loyalty to the boss is the strong, is the thing that we are going to reward above all.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.559
Um, and instead, to be looking at what are the other things that we value.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.280
Those are really important.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:47.840
I think that's a wonderful, wonderful way to wrap us up thinking about those values, right?
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:54.639
And the people, who do we want to be and who do we want to be attached to and in company associated with?
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:00.239
Or if people are like, oh my goodness, this is really fascinating and interesting.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.519
And I've never thought about ethics or even misconduct this way.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.480
Uh, or if they're like, where can I get more Dr.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.400
Moore or summers or summers in my life?
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:09.440
Like, where can they find you?
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:10.320
What are you up to?
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:11.440
What are you working on?
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:13.039
How can people engage with you?
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:18.800
Well, the uh my new book, The Fault Lines of Finance, is coming out on September 6th.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.639
I'm not sure when the podcast will air, but sometime around that date, I think.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.880
There's a previous book, the um it's called Advice That Sticks.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:40.480
And both of those are written for financial professionals, and occasionally might see me on this speaking uh circuit, or I think the show notes might have some websites that you can get hold of me.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:42.079
Yes, absolutely.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.400
We'll make sure that we include all of those.
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.320
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your insight.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.480
Uh, this is not an easy topic, and yet it was very easy to talk to you about.
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:58.719
So uh I appreciate just your generosity, the honesty and care that you brought to the conversation.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.960
Very, very helpful, very valuable.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:09.360
For those of you that are listening now, I want to thank you for allowing Moira and I into your ears and into your mind.
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:26.239
And if this conversation, if it stirred up something in you that maybe you'd like to pay attention to a little bit, I would encourage you to check out some of the resources that she mentioned, check out some of the points, the tips there that were suggested.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:37.119
Uh, and if you find yourself just having future like curiosities or wonderings, like feel free to send myself a message or to send Moira a message as well.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.000
I will go ahead and volunteer her uh for that.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:42.800
I don't know if that's smart or wise, uh, but reach out to her.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.480
Um, she is a lovely human.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:50.719
If you'd like to continue the conversation through social media, you can find us.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:37:00.719
You can find uh me on LinkedIn where I post daily insights, almost daily insights around the intersection of financial planning and human understanding.
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.639
You can also check out our YouTube channel where my partner Meg and I, we have been posting some content there.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.840
Really good stuff, although I am incredibly biased.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:16.960
Um, I think it is equally as entertaining as it is informative, but go ahead and check us out there on YouTube.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:25.440
And hey, listen, what I'd really love more than anything, you can check out us on those places, but I would love if you would subscribe to the podcast.
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:32.480
Go ahead and hit that check mark, that subscribe button there, so that you never miss an episode like this one.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:41.280
And remember, remember, remember, my friends, for those of you that are listening, you probably know what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway because it's always important.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:44.960
Finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.000
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.159
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.079
I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.679
If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:13.119
Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:21.280
For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:28.320
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00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.920
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00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:34.400
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00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:38.800
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00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:43.519
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.759
And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:04.639
That's pretty evident.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.240
Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:09.839
Which is amazing to me.
00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:14.000
Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:14.720
Right.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.000
But at this point, it's not in the in the regulation.
00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:25.600
You know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships.
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:26.160
Relationships.
00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:27.760
Try to avoid them.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:38.399
And that's because the more you become embroiled in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:39.359
Absolutely.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:49.920
And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, where sometimes you have to say, you know, hard things.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.079
You have to deliver hard truths.
00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:58.000
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:04.560
As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:14.560
It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:24.560
You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:35.840
You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:51.599
Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:52.879
Oh yeah, hi.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:54.640
I should probably introduce myself.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:02.879
I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:08.879
My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.719
Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:14.240
Let's dive in.
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:20.319
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:26.319
I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm having a fangirl moment, although I'm not supposed to, but I am.
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:28.960
I've already told her I'm having a fangirl moment.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.240
I am joined by Dr.
00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:36.879
Moira Summers, a clinical consultant and just really a fantastic human.
00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:38.400
So I don't want to spend any more time.
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:43.680
I just want to get to like all the good things and let Moira do her thing and share everything.
00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:45.360
But Moira, first, welcome to the show.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:47.280
Thank you so much for being here with me.
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.319
Thank you so much.
00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:49.599
It's just a joy.
00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:50.879
Wonderful, wonderful.
00:02:51.039 --> 00:03:00.879
So you and I have been chatting kind of before we hit record, just around it's like a good problem and a bad problem of all the great things we could talk about.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:08.319
And there are far too many things uh that we we could talk about, but sadly we had to pick one, at least for today's purposes.
00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:14.719
And so today, for those of you that are listening, today we're gonna be talking about misconduct.
00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:19.599
Now, I'm hoping that like some doom kind of like dreary music's not.
00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.080
Right, yeah, right, is like playing in the background.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:30.240
When I had Jim Grubman on, he I have to go back and listen, but he did like the Austin Powers, like the Pinkies like thing.
00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:33.599
I'm like imagining his face doing that right now.
00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:35.280
It's making me it's making me laugh.
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.159
But I feel like there should be some kind of background music, right?
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.840
When we talk about like ethical misconduct within at least financial uh advising.
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.479
And so more, let's just kind of start maybe like there.
00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:53.120
When we talk about when advisors hear, you know, advisor misconduct.
00:03:53.280 --> 00:04:02.560
I would imagine, I don't know if it's two stories, but there's probably a story that comes to mind around who are like the advisors that might engage in misconduct.
00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:13.199
And I'm wondering if maybe we can just, you know, kind of distill some of this around what is misconduct first, and then we can just kind of go from there if that's okay.
00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:14.000
Sure.
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:28.000
So this is all arising out of a project that I've been working on for the past couple of years, together with a solicitor colleague from the UK who's made her career prosecuting financial advisors.
00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.920
And now she runs a financial advising firm.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.240
And so, you know, we've we come at this from so many different levels.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:49.600
Uh, I'm not a financial advisor, but I'm the one who is often called upon to work with people who've been hauled up before the regulators and with their victims.
00:04:49.920 --> 00:05:02.240
And so together we kind of cover the waterfront in terms of understanding the victimology, the nature of the people who get embroiled in this and how it goes.
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:20.560
And, you know, we could have taken any number of approaches to the problem, but our hearts were both really heavy for early career professionals and their managers, because those are the ones that really, really break our hearts.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:51.120
And so the book is very much oriented towards helping people in the field understand what it is that they're about to step into, like the whole territory, which is hugely varying, as you know, there are extraordinarily ethical firms, and there are places that just want to suck you dry and really just release you with no protections whatsoever.
00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:58.399
And sometimes the people who end up in real trouble have themselves been victimized by unsavory bosses.
00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:28.720
So our our hope in writing the book was both to protect those early career professionals by giving them a heads up, but also to help the firms that they will go into create cultures of integrity so that it's easier to surface mistakes, it's easier to make those, you know, visions, mission statements that can just be performative, uh, to make them really living guideposts.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:35.120
Sorry, that was a mixed metaphor, but to make them things that really make a difference in the life of the firm.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:44.240
Yeah, I which I have no doubts that you have succeeded in that hope, at least of appealing to that.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:56.720
I guess when I think about misconduct, granted, I'm not an advisor, um, but as a mental health professional, like we also have guidelines around what misconduct looks like.
00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:12.319
And anytime I've done any type of, you know, ethics, CEs, um like the do's and don'ts, or when I'm supervising pre-licensed clinicians and we talk about ethics, you know, there's the obvious things like don't sleep with your clients.
00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:14.560
That seems kind of like a no-brainer.
00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:20.160
There are some obvious things that come to mind around like the do's and the don'ts.
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:26.000
But I know, and I would imagine that this is what you know, your work with this book is centered on.
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.519
It's not just black and white, the do's and the don'ts.
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:39.360
And so when we talk about, when you're talking about misconduct here, when you're thinking about that early professional, I mean, maybe I should ask, like, is it just the black and white kind of do's and don'ts?
00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:44.000
Or is it is it more nuanced here when you're thinking about misconduct?
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.199
It is.
00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.360
Even, you know, you and I share this mental health background.
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:58.480
And what we know is that you can put people through ethics courses and they can easily pass multiple choice exams on what is the right thing to do.
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:06.480
But there have been some really interesting studies of mental health professionals, both again, early career and seasoned professionals.
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:31.680
And when you put scenarios in front of them and say, I mean, juicy scenarios, like you're doing therapy with a client, and in the course of that therapy, they've they've told you that they're in embroiled in an extramarital affair, and you suddenly realize that the person they're having the affair with is your sister's husband.
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:33.519
What is the right thing to do?
00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.360
Oh, it's so juicy.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:36.480
Right.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.039
And then, and so, you know, what's the right thing to do?
00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.519
It's like keep your mouth shut.
00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.679
And then what would you do?
00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:50.879
50% of new therapists and 30% of seasoned therapists say they would not do the right thing.
00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:51.600
Interesting.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.039
Know what to do, but they acknowledge they would not do it.
00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:56.720
They would interfere.
00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:03.519
And that's because ethics is both a head thing and it's a heart thing.
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:05.440
Oh, that's such a great distinction.
00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:27.200
And we don't equip people for what to do when scenarios unfold before us that tug at our hearts and our values are pulled in one direction, and the codes of conduct are firmly in another direction, and we don't know what to do with those values conflicts, and we don't have anywhere to go with them.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:31.279
So anywhere we don't have people to talk to about them.
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:37.039
I mean, it might even be not so much a values conflict, but just really strong emotions, Ashley.
00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:44.159
Like if I do the ethically right thing, like I don't step in, I'm not gonna act on insider information.
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:50.720
Everybody else in this chain of information sharing is acting on it.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:52.639
I feel like a chump.
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:59.679
I feel like the absolute loser that I'm the only one not getting rich off this.
00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.240
And so, who do you go to in that moment?
00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.480
And how do you disclose this dilemma?
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.200
And where do you go for supervision and guidance?
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.360
And how do you ask for it?
00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:15.279
Every one of the steps in that chain will determine the outcome.
00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:17.919
And I'll determine a different outcome.
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:45.679
And so in our book, we have very juicy case studies of people who've done the right thing and people who've done the wrong thing, and talked about what happened when when they didn't have the right people to talk to and they didn't present the cases in the right way, because there is a right way and a wrong way to do this, and what and what you need to do in order to strengthen yourself to guard your boundaries.
00:10:46.480 --> 00:11:02.000
Because most of the people that we feature, and indeed most of the people who come before the regulators, and boy, did we spend a lot of time with them, most of the people who come before them are not this, you know, the slathering psychopaths.
00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:09.120
They are one of the original titles for our book, actually, was had the word stumble in it.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:21.039
Most of us stumble into misconduct, and then we slide, we slide across lines because we're not even aware.
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:22.799
Yeah, that they're there.
00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:24.240
Would it be okay?
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.120
You mentioned as part of the book, there are some case studies.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:33.519
And so just wondering, could we talk about maybe some of these?
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:43.120
I don't want to call them like small, like these like smaller decision points, or what are maybe some of the ways from an ethical misconduct place?
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:51.840
What are you seeing like in advisory practices that maybe some advisors wouldn't realize falls under like ethical misconduct?
00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.720
I'm just curious, like what you found and what you're seeing.
00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:06.639
Well, a great deal of it just has to do with the fact that most advisors believe that they know the products that they are being taught to sell.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:21.360
That they are qualified to sell them, they're qualified to give advice, that they know the clients, and that they're not facing any kind of conflict of interest or pressure to promote one product over the other.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:26.879
And we just know that in a great deal of cases that is not so.
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:45.440
And when when advisors end up in the courtroom on the stand having to defend their knowledge of the product, very rapidly becomes clear that they've just been relying on a prospectus and they don't have the statistical knowledge to understand any of that stuff.
00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:46.960
They are not equipped.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:47.919
Yeah.
00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:48.720
Some are.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.759
I mean, if you have a CFA, you could lead the course.
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:59.759
If you are working in a bank and you have one mutual fund license, this is a very different scenario.
00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:06.879
And so one of the challenges is, of course, the fact that who counts as a financial services professional?
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.279
Let us count the waves.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:15.279
This could be somebody with a PhD in math who's developing cryptocurrency.
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:32.320
This could be somebody who's just out of high school and is working, as I said, with one license, either to sell insurance or mutual funds, and is now client-facing in front of a bank and is being pressured to either sell that product or push a credit card.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:43.759
And so the fact is that people are often incentivized early on to do things that are not necessarily in clients' best interest.
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:45.279
And that's heartbreaking.
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:47.519
It is heartbreaking and scary.
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:48.960
It is scary.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:54.559
As a consumer, like the more you get into this research, the more you go, oh my.
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.399
Is the mattress stuffed with money really a bad idea?
00:13:58.639 --> 00:13:58.879
Right.
00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.919
Maybe, maybe grandma had it right all along.
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.120
I mean, listen, more if I come knocking, please let me.
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.120
I'm really good at gardening.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:14.159
I'm good at gardening.
00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.559
I can contribute in in that way.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.039
Yeah, I mean, it it is scary.
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:24.879
And and it is scary, but you know, not that we want to just evoke fear, right?
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.679
Come back, come back to sensibility.
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:32.639
But the fact is that not only is it buyer beware, but it needs to be seller beware.
00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:45.039
That if you come into this area of work and it's a beautiful area to work in, you can do such good, and you can do well for yourself and for your own family.
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:53.840
But you do have to be discerning and you do have to be aware of the whole array of the marketplace.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.840
And you've got to preferentially and deliberately navigate your way towards the ethical options.
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:25.679
You know, that means educating yourself, knowing really how to understand and respect the limits of your own competency, seeking out the highest qualifications that you can get, networking, serving on professional committees so that you just understand what's out there and how can you be better?
00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.639
And who should you be hanging with in order to get there?
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:36.240
Yeah, I think that's a great example, just around what you're offering your lane, like staying in your lane.
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:44.480
I know some advisors, you know, CFP professionals, I've seen chatter, right, around offering tax advice, right?
00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:48.320
And knowing how to stay in your lane or even uh around estate.
00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:49.759
You're not an estate attorney.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:16:10.559
So just being mindful around just the advice that you give and what is your lane and what is not your lane there with clients, I guess in that vein, but also thinking about are there any like relational, you know, kind of ethics issues or like vulnerabilities that maybe advisors should also kind of keep in mind here.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:11.440
Sure.
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:20.799
Well, that part of the way and uh part of the reason that we often stumble is because of an incredible desire to help.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:42.559
And so we, you know, we've got lots of different kinds of intellectual capital, many, especially if you come into it later in life and you've come from a uh a different career or you've got related life experience, you've been through a divorce, you've raised kids, you've helped a dementing parent navigate through.
00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:53.919
So you've got these adjacent areas of experience and sometimes frank expertise, but that wasn't what you were contracted to provide.
00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:08.799
And so being able to be clear about what the scope of your engagement is, and when are you offering something that is truly within the umbrella, the rubric of your engagement?
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:27.359
And when are you saying, I'm I'm not speaking out of this, out of from my services as a CFP professional, but this is from my related area, or I can give you some guidance, but you know, I really do suggest that you follow up with an estate attorney on this, on this sort of thing.
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:37.200
That is one of the most common things that ends up getting people in trouble with the regulators, uh, with their clients is giving out-of-scope advice.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.599
And it's you know, it's hardly ever maliciously motivated.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.759
It's it comes from a really good place.
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:49.039
You're more likely to be triggered into doing that if you're tired.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:18:03.680
Um, if you're depleted in in in various ways, and if work is becoming the place where you get filled up more so than any other domain of your life.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.960
You know, sometimes sometimes home life is just hard.
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:18.880
Okay, maybe I'm maybe I'm leaking here, but I think many people find home life hard at certain points.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:30.960
And in contrast, work life can just feel like, oh, I can plant my flag in the soil, and people think I'm competent and that I'm not an idiot, unlike my teenagers, and and they thank me for what I've done.
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:38.400
And so you can yeah, you can end up kind of overindexing on that.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:54.400
And so when people start praising you and thanking you, or or demonstrating their appreciation for you, that is one of the the most common ways that people end up crossing the line.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:00.400
And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.200
That's pretty evident.
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.880
Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.680
Which is amazing to me.
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:12.000
Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:12.559
Right.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:13.359
Right.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:28.559
But uh at this point it's not in the in the regulation, you know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships and try to avoid them.
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:40.240
Um and that's because the more you become embroiled in in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:41.279
Absolutely.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:51.920
And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, or sometimes you have to say hard things.
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.759
You have to deliver hard truths.
00:19:54.640 --> 00:20:01.039
You mentioned about burnout and I'm home life maybe being difficult.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.279
I'm even thinking about advisors who are overworked.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.079
Uh, we're recording this right now in the spring.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:16.559
And so it's just past tax season, the deadline, and or surge meetings for those that practice, you know, surge meetings, not structure.
00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:26.799
And so I know just even in my own life, like sometimes when I'm go, go, go and like work, work, work, I'm not as I may not be as careful or thoughtful around things.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:33.279
I guess what I'm getting at here and what I'm wondering is are there some like early warning signs?
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:40.000
Maybe for if someone's listening and they're like, I don't, I don't really know if like might be in any kind of trouble.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.039
I don't sell product.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:43.200
Um, I like my family, I guess.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:45.039
I think, I think life's easy.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:21:02.319
But like, are there maybe some early just signs that an advisor that we could offer them to where they might reflect on that and go, oh, I hadn't thought about maybe like with this situation, ooh, maybe I sh maybe that's a sign or maybe I should should do that.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:16.720
There are different signs for different kinds of risks, but just for this one, you know, for burnout, if you find that um it's just increasingly difficult to care, which is the opposite problem of what we've described.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:24.799
If your empathy is is down, um if you're feeling more noticing more contempt or disdain, that's an issue.
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:34.400
Uh one of the categories that we talk about uh in terms of people who are at risk of misconduct is one that we've dubbed collapse incompetence.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:45.200
So these are people who may even have been kind of rock stars, but as the as more and more was placed on them, every bridge has a capacity, right?
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:55.119
Every engineering student wears a ring to remind them of what happens when you exceed the capacity of a of a physical structure.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:22:05.759
It it would be good if we had some sort of ability to notice when we're Exceeding the capacity of our psychological capabilities, but we don't.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.480
And so what are those indicators?
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.640
People staying late, people, you know, look at your calendar.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:20.240
Are you are you abandoning the things that you said when you've set out your New Year's resolution?
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.599
Are you actually going to the gym?
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:23.359
Are you using your gym membership?
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.359
Are you keeping up with date night?
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:32.160
If we did a food diary of the last, you know, 48 or 72 hours, would you be mortified if that got posted?
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.720
Yes.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.599
Yes, I would.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:35.920
I would personally coming off of just traveling.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:36.799
Yes, I would.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.319
What are the indicators that you've actually been attending to other domains of your life?
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.240
What does the calendar reflect?
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:46.880
That is often the the most important thing.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.119
But also, what would your what could your staff say about you?
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.920
What would what could your colleagues say about you?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:58.079
And more important, do you ever take the time to ask, how are we doing?
00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.279
How am I doing?
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:08.799
One of the recommendations that we have for managers is that you make a point of having a 30-minute conversation once a week with each of your direct reports.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.200
And if you can't do it that often, then how often could you do it?
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.720
Could you do it every other week?
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:22.319
Because that ability to just say, you know, really, how are you?
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:29.440
Many times over the course of a year allows this level of attunedness to develop.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:31.119
You start seeing the signs.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:41.759
And it's wonderful if you can create the kind of workplace culture where without shame or blame or judgment, people can just say, Hey, are you okay?
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.000
What could I take off your plate for you?
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:45.680
I noticed that.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:50.160
You mentioned earlier talking about, you know, with firms, right?
00:23:50.319 --> 00:24:09.039
We've been talking kind of probably more to like advisors as like an individual, but I do want to take a moment and kind of in that vein, like, let's talk a little bit about firms and firm culture and you know what type of firm culture allows for maybe that slippery slope.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.400
Is it the ones that aren't meeting regularly with their direct reports?
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:19.359
Um, are there other things that maybe allow for drift, I will say, to happen unintentionally?
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:21.920
Well, some of it is very intentional.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:32.960
We highlight a study that shows that some firms differentially hire advisors who've been let go in other firms for misconduct.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:40.160
They are preferentially recruiting people who've been fired for misconduct.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.319
What do you think that signals?
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.200
What do you think happens in those forms?
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:51.839
It like my eye, I kind of do like the eye twitch thing because it's like what?
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:53.599
I believe you, Moira.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.480
I believe you.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:59.039
And also simultaneously, I'm having like a WGF moment.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:00.799
Like exactly.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:01.920
Exactly.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:08.880
Not everybody shares the notion that ethical conduct is good in financial services.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.000
I think this is where me being very naive comes into play, right?
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.599
I I will own that.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:16.319
But yeah.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:27.920
I mean, just as a teaser, I I talk about one of my first experiences as a clinical supervisor involving an intern and cocktail wieners and a pool.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:36.559
And thinking that we all share certain standards and finding out that no, in fact, we don't.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:37.759
We don't.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.920
Uh, that things that we hold to be self-evident are not, in fact, self-evident.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:56.240
So that is why it's really important going back to those early career choices that who you choose to work for is one of the most consequential decisions you will ever make.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:06.319
Um, and if you start hearing people talk derisively about compliance departments, like red flag.
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:21.920
You know, if I know there's a whole sort of ironic or it's, you know, it's meant to be humorous, you know, the Department of Business Prevention, you know, all of these kinds of labels that get that get put on them.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:38.079
But if it's beyond just sort of a momentary disgruntlement and really there is a subculture of do your best to avoid these people and to hoodwink them, then get the heck out.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.839
Because you you are not saved by I was told to do it.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:27:05.759
You know, in the very first chapter of the book, we talk about um somebody who, you know, within the first year of beginning what seemed like a really promising career, he lost, you know, he was banned for a lifetime because he got hooked into a corrupt firm.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:28.720
And again, looking at the categories of people who end up involved in misconduct, there's the stubb stumblers, there's the collapse incompetence, which some which includes actually people who end up dementing, you know, they come down with, or people who become clinically depressed or develop alcohol and substance abuse.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:34.319
And if those people happen to be in solo practice, oh, it's so much harder to find them.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:46.160
But if they are in a firm and we've got a way of you know, you know, there's a psychologically safe way and mechanisms for reporting or whistleblowing, we've got to train each other on how to do that.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.400
How can you do that?
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:55.039
Again, the ethical, we know the ethical thing to do, we just aren't trained in how to do it.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.000
Yeah.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:05.920
That leads me to one of the, I guess it probably will likely end up being one of the last questions, sadly.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:06.559
Maybe not.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:06.960
I don't know.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:07.519
We'll see.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:08.240
We'll see.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.200
I don't want it to be.
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:23.920
But for advisors who are listening and like want to take this seriously, and and they are on the side of, I will say, I don't like to frame it as like good and evil or good and bad spectrum, but like they're on the side of like, I want to do right.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:30.640
I'd like to know a little bit more about, you know, my own maybe ethical blind spots.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:37.759
Apart from maybe your fantastic book that's going to be coming out, like what would you recommend for them?
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:38.720
Like, where can they go?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.240
Especially, I think, if they're in like smaller, like solo practices.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:56.640
I think one of the important things to do is to simply read the reports that come out from the regulators, whoever covers you and the regulatory, like look at those detailed case studies that come out.
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.319
What happened there?
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.119
Who is under investigation and why and how did that happen?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:08.079
But of course, those represent only the smallest, smallest percentage.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:29.359
One of the, when you talk about blind spots, Ashley, for me, one of the most sobering findings that comes from the field of behavioral ethics is the fact that we are unbelievably reluctant to consider the fact that it could be us.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.559
Nobody wants to think it could be them.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:41.359
You've heard of this better than average effect that all of us want to, you know, think that we're smarter than average and that we're better drivers than average and we're better, blah, blah.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.680
Well, it turns out that that better than average effect is on steroids for morality.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:55.200
And so, you know, if this book were about don't be a Bernie Madoff, it would be a really short book.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:07.519
Because, you know, we can give firms that care could screen people, screen people using standard uh psychological tests, just screen them for psychopathy, do a criminal records check.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.119
Bob's your uncle.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:11.200
There it is, done.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.720
But but it's so much more nuanced than that.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:28.160
And the fact is that the snakes in suits actually turn out to have very many of them turn out to have really good track records as CEOs, uh, and until they don't.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:42.240
And so when you look at studies of white-collar criminals, the ones who do get caught, the ones who do cross the lines, turns out most of them were uh not aware that they were crossing the line.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.400
That it was just impulsive.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.119
It wasn't this, hmm.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:55.039
I if I weigh the pros and the cons and the cost benefit, I'm gonna carefully think about whether this is worth it.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.640
Turns out much of it was just impulsive.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:05.519
It was responding to that, like, oh, somebody asked me to do that, or shoot, I'm not making targets.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:12.480
I'm I'm just gonna doctor the books, and then next month I'm gonna make it up, and no one will ever have to know.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.160
And then you get in deeper and deeper and deeper.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:26.960
What resonates me with me, I think most, and it takes me a little bit back to my own childhood, is my dad, my parents would say, like, you are not special.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:35.599
And in a sense of meaning that, like, you're not special enough to get out of something that, you know, or to be held accountable.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:47.519
So if you're getting pulled over, like for speeding, like what makes you think that you're so special that you can just, you know, get like you are not above anyone else was a lot of the messaging, you know, there.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:53.039
Now there's some downside to hearing ultimately precious, maybe anyway.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:57.839
Right.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:31:59.440
Right.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.839
This like dichotomy.
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:04.240
Like, I don't know if that's the reason I became a therapist.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:12.160
There's many reasons, I think, from there, but like that resonates with me because I just think like on a human level, like, you know, I see it, like I hear it.
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.240
It's like, well, that will never happen to me.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.799
I would never like do that going, you know, or I'm am better than average, as you were saying.
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:34.400
And so just from like a place of humility, I feel like just taking the time to pause, even and like asking just some thoughtful questions around how to process or how to, you know, how do we proceed like with this, or how do we, you know, navigate this?
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:38.640
Uh, I guess it sounds simple in my mind of like just pause.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.519
But I know going, you know, you said like people act on pulsity and they're just going and doing.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:45.200
So easier said than done.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:51.279
So yeah, well, it turns out that pausing is incredibly powerful.
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:57.039
It's the very same thing that protects us from cognitive cognitive bias, right?
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:01.519
Um, but as Daniel Kahneman said, nobody wants to do it, right?
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:09.359
And and the only way, you know, the best way to do it is to have a thinking partner who says, slow down there, buddy.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:10.720
Let's talk about this.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.839
If we were wrong about this, what would it look like?
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.559
What's the opposite of this thing look like?
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:16.960
Right?
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.359
Like there, there's a series of there are questions that you can regularly ask.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:28.400
And those can be not only to protect yourself against investing errors, but also against ethical errors.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.759
And you can do that, you can make that part of your firm culture.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.759
We do that, you know, in the in the firm that I'm part of.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:46.240
You know, I'm sure that there's some eye rolling going on behind my back, but you know, just just the other day we had the, well, is that the ethical thing to do here?
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:47.440
Are we sure?
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.720
What could it look like if we did that differently?
00:33:51.039 --> 00:34:00.559
And it does feel remarkable to to be able to come through the other side and say, you know, in the long run, this is who we want to be, this is who we want to show up.
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:22.480
But we do need training on how to be defiant sometimes, how to stand in the in the face of a culture that says, you know, in some cultures that say profit is the only is the highest and the only aim of this firm or of this of this culture.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:33.840
This is the only thing that we're supposed to be doing here is maximizing profit or loyalty to the boss is the strong, is the thing that we are going to reward above all.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.559
Um, and instead, to be looking at what are the other things that we value.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.280
Those are really important.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:47.840
I think that's a wonderful, wonderful way to wrap us up thinking about those values, right?
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:54.639
And the people, who do we want to be and who do we want to be attached to and in company associated with?
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:00.239
Or if people are like, oh my goodness, this is really fascinating and interesting.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.519
And I've never thought about ethics or even misconduct this way.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.480
Uh, or if they're like, where can I get more Dr.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.400
Moore or summers or summers in my life?
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:09.440
Like, where can they find you?
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:10.320
What are you up to?
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:11.440
What are you working on?
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:13.039
How can people engage with you?
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:18.800
Well, the uh my new book, The Fault Lines of Finance, is coming out on September 6th.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.639
I'm not sure when the podcast will air, but sometime around that date, I think.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.880
There's a previous book, the um it's called Advice That Sticks.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:40.480
And both of those are written for financial professionals, and occasionally might see me on this speaking uh circuit, or I think the show notes might have some websites that you can get hold of me.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:42.079
Yes, absolutely.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.400
We'll make sure that we include all of those.
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.320
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your insight.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.480
Uh, this is not an easy topic, and yet it was very easy to talk to you about.
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:58.719
So uh I appreciate just your generosity, the honesty and care that you brought to the conversation.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.960
Very, very helpful, very valuable.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:09.360
For those of you that are listening now, I want to thank you for allowing Moira and I into your ears and into your mind.
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:26.239
And if this conversation, if it stirred up something in you that maybe you'd like to pay attention to a little bit, I would encourage you to check out some of the resources that she mentioned, check out some of the points, the tips there that were suggested.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:37.119
Uh, and if you find yourself just having future like curiosities or wonderings, like feel free to send myself a message or to send Moira a message as well.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.000
I will go ahead and volunteer her uh for that.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:42.800
I don't know if that's smart or wise, uh, but reach out to her.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.480
Um, she is a lovely human.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:50.719
If you'd like to continue the conversation through social media, you can find us.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:37:00.719
You can find uh me on LinkedIn where I post daily insights, almost daily insights around the intersection of financial planning and human understanding.
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.639
You can also check out our YouTube channel where my partner Meg and I, we have been posting some content there.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.840
Really good stuff, although I am incredibly biased.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:16.960
Um, I think it is equally as entertaining as it is informative, but go ahead and check us out there on YouTube.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:25.440
And hey, listen, what I'd really love more than anything, you can check out us on those places, but I would love if you would subscribe to the podcast.
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:32.480
Go ahead and hit that check mark, that subscribe button there, so that you never miss an episode like this one.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:41.280
And remember, remember, remember, my friends, for those of you that are listening, you probably know what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway because it's always important.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:44.960
Finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.000
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.159
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.079
I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.679
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00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:13.119
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00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:21.280
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00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:28.320
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