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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
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podcast.
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I'm Hamish Johnston.
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In this episode,
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we explore how pictures
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can be used to teach the fundamentals
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of quantum physics
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to everyone.
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But first, a message from IOP publishing,
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which brings you Physics World
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and also publishes an impressive range of scholarly
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journals,
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conference proceedings,
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and ebooks.
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You can download the book, The Ringed Planet
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second edition,
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for free for a limited time only
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at i0ppublishing.org/theringedplanet
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free book.
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The book is a must read on Saturn
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and the Cassini mission.
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And you can also check out the updated
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and expanded
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third edition by Joshua
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Colwell,
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which is hot off the press.
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You can find it with all of I
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OPP's
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ebooks
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at i0ppublishing.org/publications/ebooks.
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And while you're browsing titles, remember that you
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can always read the first chapters
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of all
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I OPP ebooks for free.
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And I'll include both of those URLs
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in the notes for this episode.
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Today, quantum physics is enjoying a renaissance
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in science and technology.
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After decades of speculation,
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quantum computers are now real things, and quantum
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sensors are being used in a wide range
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of applications
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from underground
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surveying
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to measuring brain activity.
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As the technologies
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we use become more quantum in nature,
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it follows that everyone should have a basic
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understanding
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of quantum physics,
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something that today remains mostly the preserve of
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scientists,
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engineers,
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and mathematicians.
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To explore how quantum physics can be taught
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to everyone,
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I'm joined by Arjun
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Dovin,
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Alex Kissinger, and Bob Kuka,
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who are all based in The UK.
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Bob is chief scientist at Quantinium,
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which develops quantum computing hardware and software.
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Alex is associate professor of quantum computing
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at the University of Oxford,
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and Arjun is studying mathematics
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at the University of Durham.
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Alex and Bob have developed a way of
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teaching
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quantum physics
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using diagrams.
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And in 2023,
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Oxford and Quantinium
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joined forces
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to use this method in a pilot summer
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program
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for fifteen to seventeen year olds,
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and Arjun
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was one of their students.
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Hi, Alex, Arjun, and Bob.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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So, Bob,
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could can we start off
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by,
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having you explain why the time has come
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to teach quantum physics to everyone,
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not just physics students?
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So what's happening at the moment or is
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about to happen, and people should have noticed
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this, I guess, if they're listening to a
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podcast like this, is that we're, like, on
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the verge of
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a a technological revolution, which is gonna be
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the quantum revolution. Some people call this the
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second quantum revolution after what happened, of course,
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in the beginning of the previous
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century.
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And and
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so
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this is gonna impact,
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many aspects of our life,
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very soon for many people. And so you
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want some form of inclusivity
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with respect
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to people knowing what is going on.
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So it's usually, quantum is conceived as something
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that
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you need a university degree and and or
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a or a PhD to understand.
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And now we have the tool at hand
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for, like, a much broader, like, portion of
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society,
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even not everybody, because we like to say
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quantum for everyone,
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can actually understand quantum and grasp the basic
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concepts.
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That's basically what this podcast is about. Some
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work,
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Alex and I did, some experiments with it
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a little bit back to show that what
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I'm claiming here is actually true. Now inclusivity
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means, for example,
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that people students can learn this at high
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school or later, but also that people in
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countries which are usually not that much subject
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to to technological things, like in Africa,
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also can be part
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of this gig. And maybe that's something that's
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gonna come up later in this in in
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this chat. I actually believe that some non
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Western countries actually have an advantage now to
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to be inclusive. Now another thing is I
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mean, I was asked to speak at the
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US capital because this is case of
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workforce
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preparation, like making the workforce much bigger for
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quantum, which is also necessary.
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And I would also bring in accountability here
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because of what we are seeing now with
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AIs. Nobody has a clue what's going on.
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And that's not very healthy,
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especially if only a few people in the
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world with a lot of billions can make
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all the decisions while nobody else knows what's
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going on. So that's the last one. And,
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I mean, as as a last command, I
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would say, quantum comes with a radical shift
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in worldview, in the way we perceive the
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world, not in contrast to classical physics, but
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I would actually take this back two thousand
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five hundred years to the presocratics. But maybe
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we can talk about that later.
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I see. And and, Bob, this is, I
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mean, this isn't just a concept for you.
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You,
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you have spent a lot of time,
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trying to come up with ways of of,
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I suppose, teaching
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quantum physics to to non physicists,
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to the to the general public. And and
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one thing that you've done is you've coauthored
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a book called Quantum in Pictures.
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And that takes a a graphical
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approach with no sort of conventional
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equations
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to teach quantum physics to a wide audience.
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Can you describe the the approach that you've
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taken in the book?
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I mean, this was a very long process.
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And,
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so so my background historically,
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going back to the nineteen nineties,
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is is kind of more with a new
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language for quantum over or a new mathematics
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for quantum. And this goes back to a
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question
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of John von Neumann post in nineteen thirty
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nineteen thirty five when he based John von
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Neumann is the father of the usual quantum
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mechanical,
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formalism, Hilbert space, also being the father of
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the computers we're using here to talk, by
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the way. And he denounced his own quantum
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mechanical formulas in 1935.
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So I came from a culture, a community
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where we try to come up with something
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new.
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And then I was very lucky to actually
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with a background as a physicist to end
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up in a computer science department
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in Oxford where where Alex now is a
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is a professor. I used to be a
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professor there.
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And then
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new ways of viewing at the world came
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from computer science, which are more about thinking
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of things in terms of processes and thinking
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of things in how
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stuff composes together, which are very fundamental computer
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science,
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concepts which a physicist would typically not think
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about in first order. And that basically gave
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a completely new view on how to build
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a quantum mechanical formalism.
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Our first idea was basically to build the
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formalism
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as a high level language for quantum, just
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like any programming language is a high level
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language for zeros and ones in your classical
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computer. And we want to do the do
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the same for quantum, but then very early
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on, I mean, we I started this in
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02/2003, '2 thousand '4. In 02/2005,
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we realized
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that the language we used were actually pictures.
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And these pictures go back to Roger Penrose.
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When Roger Penrose was an undergraduate student, he
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actually had to ill and he had to
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learn relativity theory.
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He basically realized that the symbols you typically
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use in relativity theory could be But
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it was only in the late nineties that
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people realized that it was actually gen genuine
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mathematic. And then over in a process of
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twenty years, we've a great involvement with with
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Alex. We actually ended up with a formalism,
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which was entirely
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diagrammatic. The first the first subject were actually
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the students at University of Oxford,
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like postgraduate students. So Alex and I, we
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together started a course. And in the process
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of the the the textbook of this course
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is now a book called, Picturing Quantum Processes.
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It's thousand pages.
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And so but then
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that book was not suitable for people without
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the right mathematical background. And then later,
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we basically,
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wrote this new book where we said, okay.
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There shouldn't be any a requirements
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in there anymore. So I'll end up, I'll
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end over to Alex who's now more hands
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on on these things.
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Yeah. So I've I think, really, for me,
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this started back around 2012
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or so, when when Bob and I revamped
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the quantum computing course here.
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So during my PhD, a lot of this
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early stuff about processes and things that Bob
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was talking about
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was all formalized using a kind of mathematics
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called category theory,
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which which is just a very abstract way
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of talking about
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processes in a general sense.
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But sort of toward the end of my
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PhD, we realized that the mathematics there wasn't
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so necessary, and you could sort of pull
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that out, teach everything with pictures.
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And then over about a decade of me
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and Bob teaching this course, we were teaching
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people from a lot of different backgrounds, so
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not just physics and maths,
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but also engineering and some social sciences and
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stuff, and realized that that you can actually
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teach quantum concepts to people, you know, much
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more broadly
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than that. And, I think that, that Bob
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and Stefano's book and then and then this
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experiment that we did last
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year with high school students was kind of
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the natural
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next step in that in in in making
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that a bit bit more broad.
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I see. And and in quantum mechanics is
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I mean,
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is there a a sort of long tradition
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of sort of simplifying
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things by well, maybe not simplifying is is
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is not the right word, but
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expressing things in terms of
281
00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:32,759
images or,
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00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,000
diagrams? Because, you know, I'm sort of thinking
283
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:35,500
of,
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matrix,
285
00:10:38,735 --> 00:10:41,154
mechanics, and then you've got Dirac notation
286
00:10:41,694 --> 00:10:44,414
and Feynman diagrams. There, you know, there seems
287
00:10:44,414 --> 00:10:47,074
to be a a real desire amongst physicists
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00:10:47,214 --> 00:10:50,115
to use graphical means to understand
289
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,200
quantum physics. And, do you see the these
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00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,340
pictures as a as a natural evolution from
291
00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:58,779
from those concepts?
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00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600
Yes and no. Like, know whether the desire
293
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,259
is there.
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00:11:03,684 --> 00:11:05,684
Because, I mean, one of the big, well
295
00:11:05,684 --> 00:11:07,704
known examples are Feynman diagrams.
296
00:11:08,164 --> 00:11:10,424
So which Feynman diagrams are a calculation
297
00:11:11,125 --> 00:11:13,845
tool in quantum field theory to make your
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00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:17,009
com computation much easier. Feynman had to fight
299
00:11:17,009 --> 00:11:19,250
really, really hard to get him through. Although
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00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:21,730
now everybody sort of assumes, okay. That's that's,
301
00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:22,230
like,
302
00:11:22,929 --> 00:11:23,990
totally straightforwardly
303
00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:26,870
acceptable. No. It wasn't like that at all.
304
00:11:27,009 --> 00:11:29,570
And when you mentioned direct notation, I remember
305
00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:31,134
I was a student in the in the
306
00:11:31,134 --> 00:11:34,514
nineties in a mathematical physics, theoretical physics group.
307
00:11:34,575 --> 00:11:36,835
People looked down on direct notation
308
00:11:37,215 --> 00:11:39,154
because it didn't have the sort of
309
00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:42,195
what they assume sophistication
310
00:11:42,575 --> 00:11:44,195
of the infinite dimensional
311
00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:47,330
complicated stuff. Okay. I'm gonna say something sociological
312
00:11:47,389 --> 00:11:47,889
here.
313
00:11:48,509 --> 00:11:50,750
So so the science as we know it
314
00:11:50,750 --> 00:11:52,990
physically is a very much used to be
315
00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:55,309
a very much white male dominated thing with
316
00:11:55,309 --> 00:11:57,169
a lot of ego and machoism.
317
00:11:57,789 --> 00:11:59,764
And so when I was a student in
318
00:11:59,764 --> 00:12:01,144
the '90, it was really about
319
00:12:01,524 --> 00:12:03,384
the more complicated it is, the better.
320
00:12:04,084 --> 00:12:06,664
And we had to fight really, really hard
321
00:12:06,884 --> 00:12:09,865
to push this formalism through in the mainstream
322
00:12:10,004 --> 00:12:10,504
communities
323
00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:12,830
exactly for the reason that I said. People
324
00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:15,070
said, this can't something simple like that can't
325
00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:15,809
be useful
326
00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:17,889
in any way. Now meanwhile
327
00:12:18,269 --> 00:12:20,590
and, actually, Alex is more active in in
328
00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:23,230
that than me. All the main players in
329
00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:26,565
quantum computing, quantum industry, they're all using this.
330
00:12:27,044 --> 00:12:29,845
Now it's so widespread, but it took us
331
00:12:29,845 --> 00:12:32,345
so long to fight and to get,
332
00:12:32,965 --> 00:12:36,325
things things basically published and and accepted. And
333
00:12:36,325 --> 00:12:37,764
part of the thing we had to do,
334
00:12:37,764 --> 00:12:40,679
which is what Alex alluded to earlier, is
335
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,559
to use this abstract mathematical language of category
336
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,559
theory to make it look more difficult than
337
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:46,620
it actually is.
338
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,179
And that's how we got our papers accepted.
339
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,059
We had to get rid of that stigma
340
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,360
of of this category theory, and that's why
341
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:55,934
we wrote the big book because there was
342
00:12:56,095 --> 00:12:58,034
no mention of category theory anymore.
343
00:12:58,815 --> 00:13:01,154
Okay. And I'd like to move on from,
344
00:13:01,534 --> 00:13:03,875
from from books into teaching.
345
00:13:04,495 --> 00:13:06,995
And in in 2023,
346
00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:11,389
Bob and Alex, I believe you you're both
347
00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:12,610
involved in a
348
00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:15,570
ten week summer course of short lectures
349
00:13:16,029 --> 00:13:19,629
that taught British teenagers, I think, age 15
350
00:13:19,629 --> 00:13:20,450
to 17,
351
00:13:20,884 --> 00:13:23,784
how to apply the the concepts in quantum
352
00:13:24,164 --> 00:13:24,985
in pictures.
353
00:13:26,485 --> 00:13:28,745
Alex, can you tell us about that course?
354
00:13:29,924 --> 00:13:31,605
Yeah. So this was a course. It was
355
00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:33,845
also a kind of a pilot experiment for
356
00:13:33,845 --> 00:13:35,625
this this style of education.
357
00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:37,960
So so it was a team. It was
358
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,360
the project was jointly done by Quantinium and
359
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,659
Oxford Computer Science,
360
00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:43,980
where we took,
361
00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:46,220
in the end, about 50,
362
00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:48,860
UK High Schoolers,
363
00:13:49,875 --> 00:13:51,794
from a pool of about a thousand people
364
00:13:51,794 --> 00:13:52,454
that volunteered,
365
00:13:53,634 --> 00:13:55,574
and gave them a course,
366
00:13:56,595 --> 00:13:58,754
as as close as we could kinda within
367
00:13:58,754 --> 00:13:59,495
our constraints
368
00:13:59,954 --> 00:14:00,774
to a
369
00:14:01,409 --> 00:14:03,190
Oxford Cambridge style
370
00:14:05,089 --> 00:14:06,870
graduate graduate course.
371
00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:09,509
So it was eight weeks of lectures,
372
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:11,669
along with small group,
373
00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:14,709
tutorial sessions. So this was all done online,
374
00:14:16,164 --> 00:14:18,345
and then followed by a,
375
00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:20,105
take home exam.
376
00:14:21,764 --> 00:14:22,245
So,
377
00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:25,284
the lectures were prerecorded and shared with the
378
00:14:25,284 --> 00:14:26,904
students on on YouTube.
379
00:14:27,629 --> 00:14:29,389
And then the and then the small group,
380
00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:31,870
tutorial sessions were were just, like,
381
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:34,290
Zoom chat type things.
382
00:14:35,389 --> 00:14:37,230
So it was it was it was intended
383
00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,090
to be a kind of a interactive thing,
384
00:14:39,704 --> 00:14:41,464
but then but then also to to get
385
00:14:41,544 --> 00:14:43,544
to give a bit of this, sort of
386
00:14:43,544 --> 00:14:44,924
university style experience.
387
00:14:46,264 --> 00:14:48,584
I see. And and we've also well, we
388
00:14:48,664 --> 00:14:50,584
we're we're very lucky to have a a
389
00:14:50,584 --> 00:14:51,084
graduate
390
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,459
of that summer course with us, Arjun.
391
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,259
Why did you,
392
00:14:58,199 --> 00:15:00,679
decide to take part in, in this course?
393
00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:02,860
Did you did you already have an interest
394
00:15:03,079 --> 00:15:05,799
in quantum physics? Or were were you just
395
00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:07,034
curious to,
396
00:15:07,995 --> 00:15:09,294
Why did you sign up?
397
00:15:10,714 --> 00:15:12,634
Yes. So I think it's probably more in
398
00:15:12,634 --> 00:15:14,554
regards to the latter part. I I would
399
00:15:14,554 --> 00:15:17,214
say I became, like, fascinated with quantum physics.
400
00:15:18,475 --> 00:15:21,049
I remember at that point, I had just
401
00:15:21,049 --> 00:15:22,889
finished year 12, and,
402
00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:26,429
I took a level physics. So by the
403
00:15:26,649 --> 00:15:29,610
summer term, we started doing quantum phenomena. And
404
00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:31,289
I remember specifically, it was,
405
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:34,555
we did this experiment with, I believe it's
406
00:15:34,555 --> 00:15:36,555
called, like, an electron gun, and we were
407
00:15:36,555 --> 00:15:38,415
looking at electron diffraction.
408
00:15:40,154 --> 00:15:41,915
And I just thought, like, the concept of,
409
00:15:41,915 --> 00:15:44,235
like, wave particle duality was just so cool.
410
00:15:44,235 --> 00:15:44,735
Like,
411
00:15:45,355 --> 00:15:46,919
I thought it was definitely something I would
412
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:49,559
I would find fascinating, just the fact that
413
00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:51,500
it's so new and it's so unusual.
414
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,500
And so I suppose that made me aware.
415
00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:57,980
And then it was actually my friend who,
416
00:15:58,839 --> 00:16:00,220
was recommended the course
417
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:02,444
by his teacher. So then he sent it
418
00:16:02,444 --> 00:16:04,365
to me and suggested, like, overshoot this together
419
00:16:04,365 --> 00:16:06,304
could be, something fun.
420
00:16:07,245 --> 00:16:09,324
I see. And and what did you enjoy
421
00:16:09,324 --> 00:16:09,824
most,
422
00:16:10,524 --> 00:16:11,664
about the program?
423
00:16:14,764 --> 00:16:16,204
Well, I I would say first thing, the
424
00:16:16,204 --> 00:16:17,580
lectures, it had to be Bob's,
425
00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:21,899
like, use of props and, like, just funny
426
00:16:21,899 --> 00:16:24,220
intros. That's always great. I remember we had
427
00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,139
this amazing skeleton and the spiders. That was
428
00:16:26,139 --> 00:16:26,960
always fun.
429
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,615
But I I suppose I actually enjoyed just
430
00:16:30,695 --> 00:16:32,315
getting more into
431
00:16:32,855 --> 00:16:35,034
the whole, like, making algorithms with
432
00:16:35,575 --> 00:16:36,315
the diagrams.
433
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:38,054
And I suppose it's just a different way
434
00:16:38,054 --> 00:16:39,014
of thinking because,
435
00:16:39,975 --> 00:16:41,254
I mean, from school, I would never would
436
00:16:41,254 --> 00:16:43,254
have thought of using pictures to do math.
437
00:16:43,254 --> 00:16:45,509
I always would have kept separate ideas. So
438
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:47,529
I think that in itself was quite interesting.
439
00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:49,830
I see. And and was it fun? Was
440
00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:51,750
it was it a fun thing to do,
441
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:53,750
or or was it hard work, or was
442
00:16:53,750 --> 00:16:54,809
it a bit of both?
443
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:56,549
I'd say a bit of both. Like, it
444
00:16:56,549 --> 00:16:57,929
was definitely enjoyable throughout.
445
00:16:59,095 --> 00:17:00,615
It did take some time to get used
446
00:17:00,615 --> 00:17:01,115
to.
447
00:17:02,214 --> 00:17:04,535
Although, interestingly, I feel like these are pictures
448
00:17:04,535 --> 00:17:06,375
that feel quite intuitive because it's something, I
449
00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:07,275
guess, you can
450
00:17:07,815 --> 00:17:09,515
conceptualize a lot of the times.
451
00:17:09,894 --> 00:17:11,515
I did feel like I did have uncertainty
452
00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:12,394
as to whether
453
00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:14,829
what I was doing was actually correct. So
454
00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:17,710
I think, initially, I did struggle with being
455
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:20,190
confident in my ideas, but it did feel
456
00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:21,650
pretty intuitive, I'd say.
457
00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,109
I see. And and did did you have
458
00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:26,930
much contact with with your fellow students?
459
00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:29,815
Did did you get an idea for for
460
00:17:29,815 --> 00:17:32,134
who they were and and and why they
461
00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:32,795
were there?
462
00:17:34,134 --> 00:17:35,015
Partially. I suppose,
463
00:17:35,575 --> 00:17:37,115
mainly contacts was
464
00:17:37,734 --> 00:17:38,474
through tutorials.
465
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:41,430
And so I guess there was a there
466
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:42,789
was a range. There were some people who
467
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:45,029
would love to, like, also speak up and
468
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:47,109
we can engage, and some who are more
469
00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:47,609
reserved.
470
00:17:49,109 --> 00:17:50,390
I suppose, Bob, do you have something you'd
471
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:52,970
like to say? Yeah. Bob, go ahead. So
472
00:17:53,134 --> 00:17:54,755
so we had a lot of restrictions
473
00:17:55,055 --> 00:17:57,295
imposed on us because we were doing an
474
00:17:57,295 --> 00:17:59,535
experiment with minors. So one of the things
475
00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:01,215
we wanted to do is a lot more
476
00:18:01,215 --> 00:18:03,615
social media so that students could interact with
477
00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:06,279
each other, but we were told, no. Not
478
00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:08,440
do that. And so it was quite a
479
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,420
bunch of restrictions
480
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:11,180
that we were imposing
481
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,160
on us to the extent that at some
482
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,680
point, I said, no. We are just gonna
483
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,599
pull it because this is not a normal
484
00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:19,575
teaching experience. And then Alex convinced me to
485
00:18:19,575 --> 00:18:21,974
to keep going because I thought, okay. This
486
00:18:21,974 --> 00:18:23,734
is not gonna work. This the results are
487
00:18:23,734 --> 00:18:25,974
not gonna be good because this is not
488
00:18:25,974 --> 00:18:27,734
a normal I mean, I should say something
489
00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:30,055
else, and I don't want to embarrass Arjan,
490
00:18:30,055 --> 00:18:32,289
but like, most of the students just had
491
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:33,190
a black screen.
492
00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:36,609
And and they didn't ask questions. They typed
493
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:38,769
questions. And then I wrote, like, an email,
494
00:18:38,769 --> 00:18:41,409
a long email saying, please, please, show your
495
00:18:41,409 --> 00:18:44,054
screens and speak. Because as a teacher, we
496
00:18:44,054 --> 00:18:45,835
need to see your facial, like, articulations.
497
00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:47,815
We need to hear the tone of your
498
00:18:47,815 --> 00:18:50,394
voice because that's part of a teaching. Teacher
499
00:18:50,535 --> 00:18:53,575
teacher student interaction. And I think for, yeah,
500
00:18:53,575 --> 00:18:56,054
five seconds, some some screens went down, and
501
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:57,434
then they were back again.
502
00:19:00,029 --> 00:19:01,230
So so it sounds,
503
00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:02,429
Arjun, that,
504
00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:05,250
the the sort of remote nature of it
505
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:08,509
was a bit difficult. Or or or I
506
00:19:08,509 --> 00:19:11,089
don't know. Maybe maybe you were happy with,
507
00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,825
with that. Or is there anything is there
508
00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:16,384
anything else that you'd add, to what Bob
509
00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:18,465
said in terms of how it could have
510
00:19:18,465 --> 00:19:20,164
been improved? I mean, I'm guessing
511
00:19:20,625 --> 00:19:22,164
actually going to Oxford,
512
00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:24,705
if that was possible and and doing it
513
00:19:24,705 --> 00:19:28,065
in person would have been fantastic, but maybe
514
00:19:28,065 --> 00:19:28,805
not possible.
515
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,440
Yes. I think,
516
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,420
overall,
517
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,039
I suppose, just naturally teaching online is a
518
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:35,660
bit like, it can be quite in person.
519
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,519
And I guess as Bob said, not many
520
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,759
people did always turn on their cameras or
521
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:41,259
respond.
522
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,522
I just feel bad sometimes for some of
523
00:19:43,522 --> 00:19:45,724
the tutors because we had that awkward silence
524
00:19:45,724 --> 00:19:46,785
for a couple of seconds.
525
00:19:47,404 --> 00:19:47,904
Mhmm.
526
00:19:48,684 --> 00:19:50,365
But, I mean, I I suppose some benefits
527
00:19:50,365 --> 00:19:52,125
was that sometimes I would I would be
528
00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,724
able to message my friends and we could,
529
00:19:53,724 --> 00:19:54,224
like,
530
00:19:55,325 --> 00:19:56,625
we could discuss things,
531
00:19:58,204 --> 00:19:59,105
somewhat freely.
532
00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,109
But I guess that, that was not to
533
00:20:01,109 --> 00:20:02,309
the benefit of the tutors because they have
534
00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:03,529
no idea what we're discussing.
535
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:08,309
But yeah. So so I think just the
536
00:20:08,309 --> 00:20:09,910
online like, as you said, being in person
537
00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:10,730
would have been,
538
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:12,255
perhaps a bit more
539
00:20:13,214 --> 00:20:14,434
invested. But yeah.
540
00:20:15,134 --> 00:20:17,634
And and so what's your view on quantum
541
00:20:17,694 --> 00:20:18,194
physics,
542
00:20:19,454 --> 00:20:21,134
after having taken the course? Are you
543
00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:24,194
I I I understand you you're at university
544
00:20:24,335 --> 00:20:25,075
at the moment.
545
00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,720
Are are are you doing physics? Do you
546
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,299
do you plan to pursue a career in
547
00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:32,059
quantum science and technology,
548
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,519
or have you have you put your interest
549
00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:35,500
on the back burner?
550
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,159
I would say yes. I, like so I'm
551
00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:40,220
currently studying mathematics,
552
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:42,045
but
553
00:20:42,525 --> 00:20:43,965
it was one of my intentions to actually
554
00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:44,465
do,
555
00:20:45,164 --> 00:20:47,244
like, the quantum modules within my second and
556
00:20:47,244 --> 00:20:48,924
third year. So I'm now coming towards the
557
00:20:48,924 --> 00:20:50,125
end of my first year. And,
558
00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:53,805
yes, I thought, and I thought it's one
559
00:20:53,805 --> 00:20:55,404
thing because I do remember speaking to lots
560
00:20:55,404 --> 00:20:57,579
of tutors about, like, as, I guess, Bob
561
00:20:57,579 --> 00:20:59,419
said, like, there's lots of a mat, maths
562
00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:01,759
towards it. And I thought perhaps by doing
563
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:03,740
just maths, then I would be able to
564
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,359
understand those, like,
565
00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:07,819
I'd be able to read more literature and
566
00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:09,039
perhaps have better understanding.
567
00:21:11,454 --> 00:21:12,654
And so, yes, I mean,
568
00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:15,454
I would say I haven't done much more
569
00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,234
in terms of the extracurricular side.
570
00:21:19,694 --> 00:21:21,794
But I think just also seeing the possibilities
571
00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:22,920
throughout the course,
572
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,500
like, just creating algorithms
573
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:27,799
seemed fascinating to me.
574
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,960
I remember I think they did mention one
575
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,500
about solving prime numbers
576
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,539
or, like,
577
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,220
factors
578
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,500
like prime factorization
579
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:36,299
using,
580
00:21:36,944 --> 00:21:39,284
like, quantum algorithms, I thought was really cool.
581
00:21:39,505 --> 00:21:42,144
I see. And you as a you you're
582
00:21:42,144 --> 00:21:44,404
doing maths at university, but
583
00:21:44,704 --> 00:21:46,884
it I mean, for maybe for the benefit
584
00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:49,265
of of of high school high schoolers who
585
00:21:49,265 --> 00:21:51,444
are listening and thinking, should I do physics?
586
00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:53,000
Should I do maths?
587
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,119
Do you have the opportunity to do
588
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,160
physics
589
00:21:57,539 --> 00:21:59,720
as a mathematician? You know, for example,
590
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,600
doing,
591
00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,039
mechanics and and quantum physics.
592
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,335
If you wish, can you can you study
593
00:22:08,335 --> 00:22:10,194
those things in your course?
594
00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:13,555
I suppose yeah. So currently,
595
00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,335
I just wanted to just show some mathematics
596
00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:18,494
I can. I think in the first term
597
00:22:18,734 --> 00:22:19,769
in the first year,
598
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:21,529
a lot of the content is kind of
599
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:23,289
pre cited. You get at least at Durham,
600
00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:24,509
we have one optional module.
601
00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,210
But then I don't think that goes towards
602
00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:29,369
quantum. It's only as within your second year
603
00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:31,470
where you could start to specialize more towards,
604
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:34,565
perhaps, like, quantum modules,
605
00:22:34,865 --> 00:22:36,804
mechanical modules, statistics probability.
606
00:22:37,345 --> 00:22:39,825
So I suppose definitely later on. Although, I
607
00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:41,664
do guess there's also the option of natural
608
00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,865
sciences in which,
609
00:22:43,585 --> 00:22:45,359
we can choose a combination of
610
00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:47,359
subjects. I like to do maths and physics
611
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,980
as as an option.
612
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,660
I see.
613
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000
And and what about the future? Do do
614
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,799
do you see a a career in quantum
615
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:57,859
science and technology
616
00:22:58,734 --> 00:23:00,034
in in your future,
617
00:23:00,494 --> 00:23:02,815
you know, after you've done after you've finished
618
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:03,554
with university?
619
00:23:04,815 --> 00:23:05,714
I would say
620
00:23:06,095 --> 00:23:07,075
probably, definitely,
621
00:23:07,375 --> 00:23:07,875
yes.
622
00:23:08,494 --> 00:23:09,474
Because I think
623
00:23:10,174 --> 00:23:12,254
the quantum space seems to, like, encapsulate all
624
00:23:12,254 --> 00:23:13,740
of my favorite subjects. Because for instance, for
625
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:15,900
a levels, I did math both math, physics,
626
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,920
computer science. I guess quantum computing
627
00:23:18,539 --> 00:23:20,079
is, in a way, all of those.
628
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:21,680
So
629
00:23:22,059 --> 00:23:22,640
I think
630
00:23:23,099 --> 00:23:23,920
also perhaps
631
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:26,595
because it's so new, I think it's something
632
00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:28,295
that would always keep me interested.
633
00:23:28,674 --> 00:23:29,795
So I think something I would always be
634
00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:31,015
enjoyed and pretend doing
635
00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:32,054
regardless.
636
00:23:33,554 --> 00:23:35,795
I see. Good good stuff. And,
637
00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,755
I mean, obviously, the the summer course has
638
00:23:38,755 --> 00:23:39,255
been,
639
00:23:40,589 --> 00:23:43,869
well, Arjun has you've really enjoyed it, and
640
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:46,509
it's encouraged you to to look at quantum
641
00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:47,490
science and technology
642
00:23:48,190 --> 00:23:50,349
as a career. But but, Alex, I understand
643
00:23:50,349 --> 00:23:52,750
that it's it's not just Arjun who's who
644
00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:53,809
did very well.
645
00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,325
You you you had, you had the students
646
00:23:58,325 --> 00:24:00,424
sit a university level exam
647
00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,884
on quantum physics at the end of the
648
00:24:02,884 --> 00:24:03,605
course, and,
649
00:24:04,164 --> 00:24:06,404
I think you were extremely pleased with the
650
00:24:06,404 --> 00:24:08,184
outcome. What what happened, Alex?
651
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:10,470
Yeah. That's right. So so at the end,
652
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:12,890
we gave them an exam which had all,
653
00:24:13,509 --> 00:24:14,009
previous,
654
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:17,269
exam questions that that Bob or I have
655
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:20,230
given on an exam to master students in
656
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:22,304
in past years. So we just sort of
657
00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:23,204
put that together,
658
00:24:23,585 --> 00:24:25,845
adapted a little bit to match the terminology
659
00:24:25,904 --> 00:24:27,684
of the course, and just gave that exam,
660
00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:29,605
really having no idea,
661
00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,144
what we're what we're gonna get back from
662
00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:32,644
this.
663
00:24:33,505 --> 00:24:34,005
And
664
00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:35,750
we're pleased to see that most of the
665
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,210
students passed and,
666
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:40,329
something like forty percent,
667
00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:44,089
or, yeah, around around that actually got distinctions
668
00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:46,250
or or first class marks and things.
669
00:24:47,429 --> 00:24:49,369
So so, yeah, that was really great.
670
00:24:50,265 --> 00:24:51,884
And one of the things I noticed
671
00:24:52,265 --> 00:24:54,664
kind of qualitatively when marking the exam is
672
00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:56,205
that some of the students understood
673
00:24:57,065 --> 00:24:58,445
certain concepts and
674
00:24:58,825 --> 00:24:59,884
possibly even
675
00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:02,125
even in a better way than I see,
676
00:25:02,505 --> 00:25:03,805
with the graduate students.
677
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,490
So so really an example of that is
678
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,269
this idea of nondeterminism,
679
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:12,610
in quantum theory. So for instance, I do
680
00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:15,110
a I do a quantum measurement. It collapses
681
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:16,850
my state, and I I don't get to
682
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:17,350
control
683
00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,464
what state it collapses to. Right? So the
684
00:25:20,464 --> 00:25:22,704
quantum theory has this idea of this kind
685
00:25:22,704 --> 00:25:23,525
of irreducible
686
00:25:24,305 --> 00:25:24,805
nondeterminism,
687
00:25:26,305 --> 00:25:27,605
and quantum computing
688
00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:30,224
really uses this in in the way that
689
00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:31,825
it designs some things. Right? I do a
690
00:25:31,825 --> 00:25:33,919
measurement. This has some sort of action,
691
00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:36,059
and I have to account for that in
692
00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:37,039
a certain way.
693
00:25:37,899 --> 00:25:39,419
And I saw in the way that that
694
00:25:39,419 --> 00:25:41,500
many of the students answered these questions that
695
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,419
they that I think they understood that in
696
00:25:43,419 --> 00:25:44,240
a way that
697
00:25:44,619 --> 00:25:47,099
that was sort of more fundamental, I would
698
00:25:47,099 --> 00:25:48,399
say, than than
699
00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:51,295
than than some university level students.
700
00:25:51,835 --> 00:25:54,154
That that could be that they they aren't
701
00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:56,654
as accustomed to a more traditional or
702
00:25:56,955 --> 00:25:57,455
classical
703
00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,154
way of thinking already that a computer scientist
704
00:26:00,154 --> 00:26:02,494
or physicist would get in in in university.
705
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:06,519
And, Arjun, did you enjoy doing the exam?
706
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:08,619
I mean, maybe enjoy is the wrong word.
707
00:26:08,679 --> 00:26:09,000
But,
708
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359
did did you, did did you find it
709
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,799
was it a nice way to end the
710
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:14,299
course?
711
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:17,525
I think so. I mean, I'm very reluctant
712
00:26:17,525 --> 00:26:19,125
to say I enjoyed an exam, but,
713
00:26:20,244 --> 00:26:21,704
it was definitely nice to have,
714
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:23,765
I guess, more like, because I think one
715
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:25,365
of the things is, actually doing lots of
716
00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,044
questions were really interesting because it was a
717
00:26:27,044 --> 00:26:28,884
way to practice and actually apply what we
718
00:26:28,884 --> 00:26:29,544
had learned.
719
00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:30,519
And,
720
00:26:30,819 --> 00:26:31,880
I guess the exam
721
00:26:32,579 --> 00:26:34,519
was definitely a nice way of doing it.
722
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:37,799
And, gosh, I'm trying to remember exactly.
723
00:26:38,259 --> 00:26:39,720
It's been a while. But
724
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:41,720
I think,
725
00:26:42,734 --> 00:26:43,795
I I mean, I remember
726
00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:45,954
slightly struggling with it initially,
727
00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:47,535
because it was once again, it was one
728
00:26:47,535 --> 00:26:49,954
of those things which is uncertainty. Like, how
729
00:26:50,255 --> 00:26:52,255
how right is my answer? How correct is
730
00:26:52,255 --> 00:26:53,134
it? But,
731
00:26:53,615 --> 00:26:54,515
no. It was definitely,
732
00:26:55,214 --> 00:26:56,160
interesting and
733
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,460
enjoyable.
734
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,099
Oh, that's great.
735
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,140
And,
736
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,059
and, Bob,
737
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,820
final question,
738
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,940
for you.
739
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,559
Do you think that a version of the
740
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,140
summer course could be integrated into
741
00:27:11,575 --> 00:27:13,674
a high school physics curriculum.
742
00:27:14,215 --> 00:27:16,535
And may maybe that's something that that you
743
00:27:16,535 --> 00:27:18,634
and Alex and your colleagues are working
744
00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:21,255
towards now. Is is that something that we
745
00:27:21,255 --> 00:27:21,994
could see?
746
00:27:22,934 --> 00:27:24,634
It is already happening, actually.
747
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,619
Like,
748
00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:26,599
Greece
749
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,720
was the first country to basically start using,
750
00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:32,599
this this language methodology
751
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:34,119
at high school level.
752
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:36,500
So that there is a translation out now,
753
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,759
which was really pushed by by the the
754
00:27:39,964 --> 00:27:40,704
the mathematics
755
00:27:41,005 --> 00:27:42,065
sort of teaching
756
00:27:42,525 --> 00:27:43,984
council in Greece.
757
00:27:44,285 --> 00:27:46,125
So, I mean I mean, it's probably not
758
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:48,144
an accident that it's Greek because
759
00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:50,384
as I was hinting at earlier,
760
00:27:51,404 --> 00:27:53,805
this language is not something you contrast with
761
00:27:53,805 --> 00:27:57,069
classical physics. I think this language basically goes
762
00:27:57,069 --> 00:28:00,669
back to before 2,400
763
00:28:00,669 --> 00:28:02,529
of western scientific tradition
764
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,009
to the pre Socratics in Greece.
765
00:28:06,029 --> 00:28:09,329
Because that's the moment when western science decided
766
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,450
to become mainly
767
00:28:10,974 --> 00:28:11,954
it, reductionist
768
00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:13,234
following Democritus
769
00:28:13,855 --> 00:28:16,835
and having quite a static kinematic based view
770
00:28:16,894 --> 00:28:18,434
following a guy called Parmenides.
771
00:28:18,894 --> 00:28:20,494
On the other hand, you've got people like
772
00:28:20,494 --> 00:28:22,654
Heraclitus who had, like, a process based view
773
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:23,315
on reality,
774
00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:26,190
Leibniz who has, like, an interactive relational view
775
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,289
on reality. And these pictures, without
776
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:30,990
people probably realizing it, they are much an
777
00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:33,630
embracement of a post process based view and
778
00:28:33,630 --> 00:28:37,484
an interactive view. And, so so so something
779
00:28:37,484 --> 00:28:40,284
Alex was hinting out, about, like, they didn't
780
00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:42,684
the people maybe not have been much as
781
00:28:42,684 --> 00:28:43,585
much as subjected
782
00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,365
to, like, western thinking may actually be an
783
00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:48,204
advantage. We kind of saw that the 15
784
00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:49,884
year olds were doing better than the 17
785
00:28:49,884 --> 00:28:52,099
year olds, which kind of proved that point
786
00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:53,720
that the less you've learned,
787
00:28:54,419 --> 00:28:55,799
the less you have to unlearn.
788
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,419
And that's in particular why I think it's
789
00:28:58,419 --> 00:29:00,839
really important to start this stuff very early.
790
00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559
And,
791
00:29:02,259 --> 00:29:04,099
I got a few people now working on
792
00:29:04,099 --> 00:29:06,015
this. Like, we're we're we're talking to many,
793
00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:08,575
many places in the world, like, where they
794
00:29:08,575 --> 00:29:09,555
want to start
795
00:29:10,255 --> 00:29:11,934
this in a pro so one country is,
796
00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:14,755
like, wanting to do high school, teaching
797
00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:16,994
using this is Ghana,
798
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,470
for example. So and, we we also have
799
00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:23,109
a collaboration which is now now funded with
800
00:29:23,329 --> 00:29:23,829
Colorado
801
00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:25,589
Colorado state schools.
802
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:28,869
So several places in the world are starting
803
00:29:28,929 --> 00:29:29,429
to,
804
00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:32,565
have we we we are doing an Ukrainian
805
00:29:32,625 --> 00:29:35,125
translation, by the way, too, on the initiative
806
00:29:35,744 --> 00:29:36,484
from Ukraine
807
00:29:37,424 --> 00:29:39,265
of of the book. So lots of places
808
00:29:39,265 --> 00:29:42,005
are now starting to want to integrate this,
809
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:44,340
But it it's all quite recent. You know?
810
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:46,660
So it's a very ongoing process, and I
811
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:49,059
expect if we speak in a year about
812
00:29:49,059 --> 00:29:52,200
this, their story will be much more advanced
813
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:55,434
and much more, yeah, broader in where and
814
00:29:55,434 --> 00:29:57,914
when this stuff is being, integrated in high
815
00:29:57,914 --> 00:29:59,994
school curriculum. But it should be. It should
816
00:29:59,994 --> 00:30:02,154
happen. It's not just about quantum. It's about
817
00:30:02,154 --> 00:30:04,174
a changing world view to a more relational
818
00:30:04,715 --> 00:30:06,015
and process kind of
819
00:30:06,475 --> 00:30:09,250
way of thinking, which which also makes the
820
00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:11,349
the sciences and humanities a little bit closer.
821
00:30:11,809 --> 00:30:13,890
I see. And and what about you, Arjun?
822
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,890
I mean, you're out of all of us,
823
00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:18,529
you're the closest to to having been in
824
00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:19,269
high school.
825
00:30:20,529 --> 00:30:22,210
Do I mean, do you would you have
826
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:22,710
enjoyed,
827
00:30:24,095 --> 00:30:25,154
seeing this material,
828
00:30:25,855 --> 00:30:27,394
you know, when you're doing your
829
00:30:28,255 --> 00:30:29,955
physics a level or
830
00:30:30,494 --> 00:30:32,434
a mathematics a level or even,
831
00:30:33,215 --> 00:30:34,355
at a lower level,
832
00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:36,654
at a younger age in high school? Do
833
00:30:36,654 --> 00:30:38,335
you think it would be it would be
834
00:30:38,335 --> 00:30:39,154
very useful?
835
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:42,470
I'd yeah. I definitely think so,
836
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:43,450
because
837
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:46,329
I think it's something that could,
838
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:49,269
it could be like a nice way to
839
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:50,950
kind of unite, I guess, physics and computer
840
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:52,970
science. So for physicists and computer science students,
841
00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,934
it, I mean, perhaps creating some algorithms where
842
00:30:55,934 --> 00:30:57,234
they're, like, perhaps more
843
00:30:58,734 --> 00:31:01,134
simplistic, could be nice. And then also, I
844
00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:01,775
suppose that,
845
00:31:02,734 --> 00:31:04,674
it would probably make people more aware,
846
00:31:05,775 --> 00:31:07,455
of just, like, a small if I call
847
00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:08,670
it physics, I guess, by
848
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:10,109
just,
849
00:31:10,590 --> 00:31:11,650
giving more exposure.
850
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:16,509
And so, yeah, I think it definitely would
851
00:31:16,509 --> 00:31:17,330
have been nice.
852
00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:18,690
And I think also,
853
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:21,765
as both Alex and Bob Sway were saying,
854
00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:25,825
by at that point, we've learned less classical
855
00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:26,644
way of thinking,
856
00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:29,525
for math and physics. So it would be
857
00:31:29,904 --> 00:31:31,444
it would make that easier more intuitive.
858
00:31:32,224 --> 00:31:34,460
I see. And and maybe I'll I'll throw
859
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:35,759
this out to to Alex,
860
00:31:36,139 --> 00:31:36,639
first.
861
00:31:37,579 --> 00:31:39,679
What about even younger children
862
00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:41,359
and,
863
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,220
you know, people who have done finished their
864
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:44,720
schooling?
865
00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,755
You know, I'm thinking of primary aid primary
866
00:31:47,755 --> 00:31:48,894
school age children
867
00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:50,174
and,
868
00:31:50,954 --> 00:31:53,914
just just the interested public. I mean, is
869
00:31:53,914 --> 00:31:56,494
there a is there an argument for introducing
870
00:31:56,714 --> 00:31:58,654
or coming up with ways of introducing
871
00:31:59,019 --> 00:31:59,839
quantum physics,
872
00:32:00,779 --> 00:32:02,319
to to those groups of people.
873
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,119
Yeah. I think I think so.
874
00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:06,059
I mean, the,
875
00:32:07,579 --> 00:32:10,140
the original paper of Bob's that kind of
876
00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:13,200
kicked off this education idea was titled kindergarten
877
00:32:13,339 --> 00:32:14,240
quantum mechanics,
878
00:32:14,994 --> 00:32:16,595
which I think was a bit of a
879
00:32:16,595 --> 00:32:18,355
tongue in cheek title that, you know, we
880
00:32:18,355 --> 00:32:21,234
could teach quantum mechanics to kindergartners. But, I
881
00:32:21,234 --> 00:32:22,835
mean, I think it it'd be interesting to
882
00:32:22,835 --> 00:32:24,674
see just how far we can we can
883
00:32:24,674 --> 00:32:26,934
push this. And I I think for instance,
884
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,139
you know, I know anecdotally cases of 12,
885
00:32:30,139 --> 00:32:32,960
13 year olds reading reading Bob and Stefano's
886
00:32:33,019 --> 00:32:34,799
book and getting a lot out of it.
887
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:37,980
So thinking about different different levels to pitch
888
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,934
that at and also also having more materials
889
00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:42,615
that, you know, you can just share with
890
00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:44,375
your friends. Like, so for instance, if people
891
00:32:44,375 --> 00:32:46,855
are interested in pop science, but they don't
892
00:32:46,855 --> 00:32:49,654
have a mathematical background, they can sort of
893
00:32:49,815 --> 00:32:51,174
this kind of stuff, you can get your
894
00:32:51,174 --> 00:32:52,694
teeth into in a way that you can't,
895
00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:55,429
with a pop science book because here, you
896
00:32:55,429 --> 00:32:56,710
know, we give you something, and you can
897
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:58,629
really do some calculations. You can see what
898
00:32:58,629 --> 00:33:00,730
quantum theory is gonna tell you will happen.
899
00:33:01,589 --> 00:33:03,269
And I think that could be really appealing
900
00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:04,250
to a lot of people.
901
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:05,450
Okay.
902
00:33:05,804 --> 00:33:08,924
Well, that's great, guys. Bob, Alex, and Arjun,
903
00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:10,304
thanks so much for,
904
00:33:10,605 --> 00:33:11,904
speaking to me. Arjun,
905
00:33:12,924 --> 00:33:14,944
best of luck with your career
906
00:33:15,565 --> 00:33:17,345
in mathematics and hopefully,
907
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:19,264
quantum science and technology.
908
00:33:20,009 --> 00:33:20,410
And,
909
00:33:20,809 --> 00:33:21,309
Bob,
910
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:24,910
hope everything's going well at Quantinium. And, Alex,
911
00:33:25,769 --> 00:33:28,009
best wishes at Oxford. And thanks so much
912
00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:29,450
to all of you for coming on the
913
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:29,950
podcast.
914
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:32,170
Alright. Thanks, Hamish. Thank you. Thank you. It
915
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:33,464
was a pleasure to speak to you.
916
00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,505
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
917
00:33:42,505 --> 00:33:43,724
for this week's podcast.
918
00:33:44,105 --> 00:33:47,704
Thanks to Bob, Arjun, and Alex for joining
919
00:33:47,704 --> 00:33:50,160
me today, and a special thanks to our
920
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,539
producer Fred Isles.
921
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:55,220
I'll put links to Bob and Alex's books
922
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,059
in the notes for this episode.
923
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400
We'll be back again next week, but in
924
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,059
the meantime, do check out the latest episode
925
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,755
of the Physics World Stories podcast,
926
00:34:06,294 --> 00:34:09,434
which features an interview with Linda Williams,
927
00:34:10,054 --> 00:34:10,554
physicist,
928
00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:11,434
performer,
929
00:34:11,815 --> 00:34:12,954
and self styled
930
00:34:13,494 --> 00:34:14,554
physics Chantouse.
931
00:34:15,494 --> 00:34:18,534
She tells host Andrew Glester about her latest
932
00:34:18,534 --> 00:34:20,210
show called Atomic
933
00:34:20,829 --> 00:34:21,329
Cabaret,
934
00:34:21,789 --> 00:34:24,609
and they chat about how she combines science
935
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:25,650
with music,
936
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:28,130
satire, and performance art.
937
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,809
That episode is called the Physics Chantouse,
938
00:34:32,349 --> 00:34:35,304
when science hits a high note, and you
939
00:34:35,304 --> 00:34:37,644
can find it on the Physics World website
940
00:34:37,945 --> 00:34:41,005
or at your favorite podcast provider.
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,039
Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
2
00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:11,539
podcast.
3
00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:13,139
I'm Hamish Johnston.
4
00:00:13,634 --> 00:00:14,375
In this episode,
5
00:00:14,675 --> 00:00:16,295
we explore how pictures
6
00:00:16,675 --> 00:00:18,775
can be used to teach the fundamentals
7
00:00:19,315 --> 00:00:20,774
of quantum physics
8
00:00:21,155 --> 00:00:21,894
to everyone.
9
00:00:22,755 --> 00:00:25,815
But first, a message from IOP publishing,
10
00:00:26,275 --> 00:00:28,214
which brings you Physics World
11
00:00:28,609 --> 00:00:32,310
and also publishes an impressive range of scholarly
12
00:00:32,370 --> 00:00:32,870
journals,
13
00:00:33,329 --> 00:00:34,390
conference proceedings,
14
00:00:34,850 --> 00:00:35,750
and ebooks.
15
00:00:36,850 --> 00:00:40,070
You can download the book, The Ringed Planet
16
00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:41,350
second edition,
17
00:00:41,984 --> 00:00:44,804
for free for a limited time only
18
00:00:45,184 --> 00:00:51,204
at i0ppublishing.org/theringedplanet
19
00:00:51,585 --> 00:00:52,484
free book.
20
00:00:53,104 --> 00:00:55,924
The book is a must read on Saturn
21
00:00:56,189 --> 00:00:57,809
and the Cassini mission.
22
00:00:58,429 --> 00:01:01,329
And you can also check out the updated
23
00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:02,530
and expanded
24
00:01:02,909 --> 00:01:05,009
third edition by Joshua
25
00:01:05,549 --> 00:01:06,049
Colwell,
26
00:01:06,430 --> 00:01:08,290
which is hot off the press.
27
00:01:08,909 --> 00:01:11,475
You can find it with all of I
28
00:01:11,475 --> 00:01:11,975
OPP's
29
00:01:12,355 --> 00:01:12,855
ebooks
30
00:01:13,314 --> 00:01:20,935
at i0ppublishing.org/publications/ebooks.
31
00:01:21,475 --> 00:01:24,355
And while you're browsing titles, remember that you
32
00:01:24,355 --> 00:01:26,760
can always read the first chapters
33
00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:27,799
of all
34
00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:30,760
I OPP ebooks for free.
35
00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:33,719
And I'll include both of those URLs
36
00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:36,359
in the notes for this episode.
37
00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:40,520
Today, quantum physics is enjoying a renaissance
38
00:01:41,084 --> 00:01:42,545
in science and technology.
39
00:01:43,484 --> 00:01:45,185
After decades of speculation,
40
00:01:45,885 --> 00:01:49,484
quantum computers are now real things, and quantum
41
00:01:49,484 --> 00:01:52,204
sensors are being used in a wide range
42
00:01:52,204 --> 00:01:53,025
of applications
43
00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:54,609
from underground
44
00:01:54,990 --> 00:01:55,490
surveying
45
00:01:55,950 --> 00:01:57,810
to measuring brain activity.
46
00:01:58,829 --> 00:01:59,730
As the technologies
47
00:02:00,109 --> 00:02:02,770
we use become more quantum in nature,
48
00:02:03,150 --> 00:02:05,890
it follows that everyone should have a basic
49
00:02:06,030 --> 00:02:06,530
understanding
50
00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:08,370
of quantum physics,
51
00:02:08,985 --> 00:02:12,584
something that today remains mostly the preserve of
52
00:02:12,584 --> 00:02:13,084
scientists,
53
00:02:13,625 --> 00:02:14,125
engineers,
54
00:02:14,584 --> 00:02:15,485
and mathematicians.
55
00:02:16,745 --> 00:02:19,705
To explore how quantum physics can be taught
56
00:02:19,705 --> 00:02:20,364
to everyone,
57
00:02:20,824 --> 00:02:22,604
I'm joined by Arjun
58
00:02:22,985 --> 00:02:23,485
Dovin,
59
00:02:24,419 --> 00:02:27,080
Alex Kissinger, and Bob Kuka,
60
00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:29,479
who are all based in The UK.
61
00:02:30,819 --> 00:02:33,560
Bob is chief scientist at Quantinium,
62
00:02:34,180 --> 00:02:37,719
which develops quantum computing hardware and software.
63
00:02:38,825 --> 00:02:42,284
Alex is associate professor of quantum computing
64
00:02:42,665 --> 00:02:44,365
at the University of Oxford,
65
00:02:44,985 --> 00:02:47,245
and Arjun is studying mathematics
66
00:02:47,705 --> 00:02:49,325
at the University of Durham.
67
00:02:50,185 --> 00:02:52,504
Alex and Bob have developed a way of
68
00:02:52,504 --> 00:02:53,004
teaching
69
00:02:53,305 --> 00:02:54,365
quantum physics
70
00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:55,830
using diagrams.
71
00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:58,229
And in 2023,
72
00:02:58,689 --> 00:02:59,989
Oxford and Quantinium
73
00:03:00,449 --> 00:03:01,269
joined forces
74
00:03:01,650 --> 00:03:04,689
to use this method in a pilot summer
75
00:03:04,689 --> 00:03:05,189
program
76
00:03:05,569 --> 00:03:08,389
for fifteen to seventeen year olds,
77
00:03:08,715 --> 00:03:09,534
and Arjun
78
00:03:09,835 --> 00:03:11,375
was one of their students.
79
00:03:12,075 --> 00:03:14,335
Hi, Alex, Arjun, and Bob.
80
00:03:14,635 --> 00:03:15,935
Welcome to the podcast.
81
00:03:16,955 --> 00:03:17,775
So, Bob,
82
00:03:18,155 --> 00:03:19,534
could can we start off
83
00:03:20,314 --> 00:03:20,795
by,
84
00:03:21,194 --> 00:03:24,629
having you explain why the time has come
85
00:03:24,849 --> 00:03:27,270
to teach quantum physics to everyone,
86
00:03:27,889 --> 00:03:29,510
not just physics students?
87
00:03:30,370 --> 00:03:32,770
So what's happening at the moment or is
88
00:03:32,770 --> 00:03:35,010
about to happen, and people should have noticed
89
00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:36,530
this, I guess, if they're listening to a
90
00:03:36,530 --> 00:03:38,805
podcast like this, is that we're, like, on
91
00:03:38,805 --> 00:03:39,625
the verge of
92
00:03:40,324 --> 00:03:42,485
a a technological revolution, which is gonna be
93
00:03:42,485 --> 00:03:44,644
the quantum revolution. Some people call this the
94
00:03:44,644 --> 00:03:47,784
second quantum revolution after what happened, of course,
95
00:03:48,004 --> 00:03:49,465
in the beginning of the previous
96
00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:51,240
century.
97
00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:52,599
And and
98
00:03:53,219 --> 00:03:53,719
so
99
00:03:54,260 --> 00:03:55,480
this is gonna impact,
100
00:03:56,180 --> 00:03:57,800
many aspects of our life,
101
00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:01,219
very soon for many people. And so you
102
00:04:01,219 --> 00:04:02,840
want some form of inclusivity
103
00:04:03,675 --> 00:04:04,414
with respect
104
00:04:04,875 --> 00:04:07,694
to people knowing what is going on.
105
00:04:08,314 --> 00:04:10,875
So it's usually, quantum is conceived as something
106
00:04:10,875 --> 00:04:11,375
that
107
00:04:11,834 --> 00:04:14,074
you need a university degree and and or
108
00:04:14,074 --> 00:04:15,854
a or a PhD to understand.
109
00:04:16,470 --> 00:04:18,490
And now we have the tool at hand
110
00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:21,430
for, like, a much broader, like, portion of
111
00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:21,930
society,
112
00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:24,230
even not everybody, because we like to say
113
00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:25,370
quantum for everyone,
114
00:04:26,069 --> 00:04:29,189
can actually understand quantum and grasp the basic
115
00:04:29,189 --> 00:04:29,689
concepts.
116
00:04:30,084 --> 00:04:32,164
That's basically what this podcast is about. Some
117
00:04:32,164 --> 00:04:32,664
work,
118
00:04:33,125 --> 00:04:35,685
Alex and I did, some experiments with it
119
00:04:35,685 --> 00:04:37,444
a little bit back to show that what
120
00:04:37,444 --> 00:04:40,664
I'm claiming here is actually true. Now inclusivity
121
00:04:41,125 --> 00:04:42,345
means, for example,
122
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,680
that people students can learn this at high
123
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,600
school or later, but also that people in
124
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,939
countries which are usually not that much subject
125
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,980
to to technological things, like in Africa,
126
00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:54,580
also can be part
127
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,245
of this gig. And maybe that's something that's
128
00:04:57,245 --> 00:04:59,004
gonna come up later in this in in
129
00:04:59,004 --> 00:05:01,004
this chat. I actually believe that some non
130
00:05:01,004 --> 00:05:04,125
Western countries actually have an advantage now to
131
00:05:04,125 --> 00:05:06,205
to be inclusive. Now another thing is I
132
00:05:06,205 --> 00:05:07,645
mean, I was asked to speak at the
133
00:05:07,645 --> 00:05:10,019
US capital because this is case of
134
00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:11,000
workforce
135
00:05:11,699 --> 00:05:14,339
preparation, like making the workforce much bigger for
136
00:05:14,339 --> 00:05:16,039
quantum, which is also necessary.
137
00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:18,899
And I would also bring in accountability here
138
00:05:18,899 --> 00:05:20,899
because of what we are seeing now with
139
00:05:20,899 --> 00:05:23,295
AIs. Nobody has a clue what's going on.
140
00:05:23,775 --> 00:05:25,154
And that's not very healthy,
141
00:05:25,455 --> 00:05:26,975
especially if only a few people in the
142
00:05:26,975 --> 00:05:28,574
world with a lot of billions can make
143
00:05:28,574 --> 00:05:30,895
all the decisions while nobody else knows what's
144
00:05:30,895 --> 00:05:32,975
going on. So that's the last one. And,
145
00:05:33,055 --> 00:05:34,415
I mean, as as a last command, I
146
00:05:34,415 --> 00:05:37,079
would say, quantum comes with a radical shift
147
00:05:37,639 --> 00:05:39,639
in worldview, in the way we perceive the
148
00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:42,439
world, not in contrast to classical physics, but
149
00:05:42,439 --> 00:05:44,039
I would actually take this back two thousand
150
00:05:44,039 --> 00:05:46,360
five hundred years to the presocratics. But maybe
151
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,659
we can talk about that later.
152
00:05:48,599 --> 00:05:50,439
I see. And and, Bob, this is, I
153
00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:52,814
mean, this isn't just a concept for you.
154
00:05:52,814 --> 00:05:53,294
You,
155
00:05:53,935 --> 00:05:55,954
you have spent a lot of time,
156
00:05:56,814 --> 00:05:59,055
trying to come up with ways of of,
157
00:05:59,055 --> 00:06:00,034
I suppose, teaching
158
00:06:00,334 --> 00:06:02,834
quantum physics to to non physicists,
159
00:06:03,539 --> 00:06:06,259
to the to the general public. And and
160
00:06:06,259 --> 00:06:08,120
one thing that you've done is you've coauthored
161
00:06:08,259 --> 00:06:10,519
a book called Quantum in Pictures.
162
00:06:10,979 --> 00:06:12,680
And that takes a a graphical
163
00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:15,479
approach with no sort of conventional
164
00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:16,360
equations
165
00:06:16,855 --> 00:06:19,675
to teach quantum physics to a wide audience.
166
00:06:19,975 --> 00:06:22,375
Can you describe the the approach that you've
167
00:06:22,375 --> 00:06:23,435
taken in the book?
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I mean, this was a very long process.
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And,
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so so my background historically,
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going back to the nineteen nineties,
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is is kind of more with a new
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language for quantum over or a new mathematics
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for quantum. And this goes back to a
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question
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of John von Neumann post in nineteen thirty
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nineteen thirty five when he based John von
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Neumann is the father of the usual quantum
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mechanical,
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formalism, Hilbert space, also being the father of
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the computers we're using here to talk, by
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the way. And he denounced his own quantum
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mechanical formulas in 1935.
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So I came from a culture, a community
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where we try to come up with something
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new.
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And then I was very lucky to actually
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with a background as a physicist to end
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up in a computer science department
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in Oxford where where Alex now is a
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is a professor. I used to be a
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professor there.
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And then
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new ways of viewing at the world came
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from computer science, which are more about thinking
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of things in terms of processes and thinking
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of things in how
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stuff composes together, which are very fundamental computer
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science,
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concepts which a physicist would typically not think
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about in first order. And that basically gave
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a completely new view on how to build
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a quantum mechanical formalism.
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Our first idea was basically to build the
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formalism
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as a high level language for quantum, just
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like any programming language is a high level
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language for zeros and ones in your classical
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computer. And we want to do the do
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the same for quantum, but then very early
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on, I mean, we I started this in
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02/2003, '2 thousand '4. In 02/2005,
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we realized
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that the language we used were actually pictures.
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And these pictures go back to Roger Penrose.
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When Roger Penrose was an undergraduate student, he
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actually had to ill and he had to
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learn relativity theory.
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He basically realized that the symbols you typically
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use in relativity theory could be But
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it was only in the late nineties that
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people realized that it was actually gen genuine
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mathematic. And then over in a process of
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twenty years, we've a great involvement with with
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Alex. We actually ended up with a formalism,
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which was entirely
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diagrammatic. The first the first subject were actually
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the students at University of Oxford,
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like postgraduate students. So Alex and I, we
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together started a course. And in the process
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of the the the textbook of this course
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is now a book called, Picturing Quantum Processes.
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It's thousand pages.
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And so but then
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that book was not suitable for people without
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the right mathematical background. And then later,
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we basically,
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wrote this new book where we said, okay.
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There shouldn't be any a requirements
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in there anymore. So I'll end up, I'll
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end over to Alex who's now more hands
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on on these things.
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Yeah. So I've I think, really, for me,
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this started back around 2012
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or so, when when Bob and I revamped
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the quantum computing course here.
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So during my PhD, a lot of this
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early stuff about processes and things that Bob
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was talking about
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was all formalized using a kind of mathematics
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called category theory,
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which which is just a very abstract way
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of talking about
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processes in a general sense.
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But sort of toward the end of my
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PhD, we realized that the mathematics there wasn't
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so necessary, and you could sort of pull
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that out, teach everything with pictures.
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And then over about a decade of me
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and Bob teaching this course, we were teaching
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people from a lot of different backgrounds, so
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not just physics and maths,
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but also engineering and some social sciences and
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stuff, and realized that that you can actually
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teach quantum concepts to people, you know, much
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more broadly
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than that. And, I think that, that Bob
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and Stefano's book and then and then this
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experiment that we did last
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year with high school students was kind of
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the natural
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next step in that in in in making
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that a bit bit more broad.
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I see. And and in quantum mechanics is
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I mean,
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is there a a sort of long tradition
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of sort of simplifying
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things by well, maybe not simplifying is is
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is not the right word, but
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expressing things in terms of
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images or,
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diagrams? Because, you know, I'm sort of thinking
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of,
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matrix,
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mechanics, and then you've got Dirac notation
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and Feynman diagrams. There, you know, there seems
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to be a a real desire amongst physicists
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to use graphical means to understand
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quantum physics. And, do you see the these
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pictures as a as a natural evolution from
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from those concepts?
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Yes and no. Like, know whether the desire
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is there.
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Because, I mean, one of the big, well
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known examples are Feynman diagrams.
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So which Feynman diagrams are a calculation
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tool in quantum field theory to make your
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com computation much easier. Feynman had to fight
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really, really hard to get him through. Although
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now everybody sort of assumes, okay. That's that's,
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like,
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totally straightforwardly
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acceptable. No. It wasn't like that at all.
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And when you mentioned direct notation, I remember
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I was a student in the in the
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nineties in a mathematical physics, theoretical physics group.
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People looked down on direct notation
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because it didn't have the sort of
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what they assume sophistication
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of the infinite dimensional
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complicated stuff. Okay. I'm gonna say something sociological
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here.
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So so the science as we know it
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physically is a very much used to be
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a very much white male dominated thing with
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a lot of ego and machoism.
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And so when I was a student in
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the '90, it was really about
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the more complicated it is, the better.
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And we had to fight really, really hard
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to push this formalism through in the mainstream
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communities
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exactly for the reason that I said. People
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said, this can't something simple like that can't
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be useful
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in any way. Now meanwhile
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and, actually, Alex is more active in in
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that than me. All the main players in
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quantum computing, quantum industry, they're all using this.
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Now it's so widespread, but it took us
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so long to fight and to get,
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things things basically published and and accepted. And
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part of the thing we had to do,
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which is what Alex alluded to earlier, is
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to use this abstract mathematical language of category
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theory to make it look more difficult than
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it actually is.
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And that's how we got our papers accepted.
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We had to get rid of that stigma
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of of this category theory, and that's why
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we wrote the big book because there was
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no mention of category theory anymore.
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Okay. And I'd like to move on from,
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from from books into teaching.
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And in in 2023,
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Bob and Alex, I believe you you're both
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involved in a
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ten week summer course of short lectures
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that taught British teenagers, I think, age 15
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to 17,
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how to apply the the concepts in quantum
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in pictures.
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Alex, can you tell us about that course?
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Yeah. So this was a course. It was
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also a kind of a pilot experiment for
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this this style of education.
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So so it was a team. It was
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the project was jointly done by Quantinium and
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Oxford Computer Science,
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where we took,
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in the end, about 50,
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UK High Schoolers,
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from a pool of about a thousand people
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that volunteered,
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and gave them a course,
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as as close as we could kinda within
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our constraints
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to a
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Oxford Cambridge style
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graduate graduate course.
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So it was eight weeks of lectures,
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along with small group,
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tutorial sessions. So this was all done online,
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and then followed by a,
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take home exam.
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So,
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the lectures were prerecorded and shared with the
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students on on YouTube.
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And then the and then the small group,
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tutorial sessions were were just, like,
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Zoom chat type things.
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So it was it was it was intended
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to be a kind of a interactive thing,
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but then but then also to to get
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to give a bit of this, sort of
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university style experience.
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I see. And and we've also well, we
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we're we're very lucky to have a a
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graduate
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of that summer course with us, Arjun.
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Why did you,
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decide to take part in, in this course?
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Did you did you already have an interest
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in quantum physics? Or were were you just
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curious to,
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Why did you sign up?
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Yes. So I think it's probably more in
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regards to the latter part. I I would
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say I became, like, fascinated with quantum physics.
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I remember at that point, I had just
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finished year 12, and,
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I took a level physics. So by the
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00:15:26,649 --> 00:15:29,610
summer term, we started doing quantum phenomena. And
404
00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:31,289
I remember specifically, it was,
405
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:34,555
we did this experiment with, I believe it's
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called, like, an electron gun, and we were
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looking at electron diffraction.
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And I just thought, like, the concept of,
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like, wave particle duality was just so cool.
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Like,
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I thought it was definitely something I would
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I would find fascinating, just the fact that
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it's so new and it's so unusual.
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And so I suppose that made me aware.
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And then it was actually my friend who,
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was recommended the course
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by his teacher. So then he sent it
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to me and suggested, like, overshoot this together
419
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could be, something fun.
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I see. And and what did you enjoy
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most,
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about the program?
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Well, I I would say first thing, the
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lectures, it had to be Bob's,
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like, use of props and, like, just funny
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00:16:21,899 --> 00:16:24,220
intros. That's always great. I remember we had
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00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,139
this amazing skeleton and the spiders. That was
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always fun.
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But I I suppose I actually enjoyed just
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getting more into
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the whole, like, making algorithms with
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the diagrams.
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And I suppose it's just a different way
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of thinking because,
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00:16:39,975 --> 00:16:41,254
I mean, from school, I would never would
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00:16:41,254 --> 00:16:43,254
have thought of using pictures to do math.
437
00:16:43,254 --> 00:16:45,509
I always would have kept separate ideas. So
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I think that in itself was quite interesting.
439
00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:49,830
I see. And and was it fun? Was
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00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:51,750
it was it a fun thing to do,
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or or was it hard work, or was
442
00:16:53,750 --> 00:16:54,809
it a bit of both?
443
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:56,549
I'd say a bit of both. Like, it
444
00:16:56,549 --> 00:16:57,929
was definitely enjoyable throughout.
445
00:16:59,095 --> 00:17:00,615
It did take some time to get used
446
00:17:00,615 --> 00:17:01,115
to.
447
00:17:02,214 --> 00:17:04,535
Although, interestingly, I feel like these are pictures
448
00:17:04,535 --> 00:17:06,375
that feel quite intuitive because it's something, I
449
00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:07,275
guess, you can
450
00:17:07,815 --> 00:17:09,515
conceptualize a lot of the times.
451
00:17:09,894 --> 00:17:11,515
I did feel like I did have uncertainty
452
00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:12,394
as to whether
453
00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:14,829
what I was doing was actually correct. So
454
00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:17,710
I think, initially, I did struggle with being
455
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:20,190
confident in my ideas, but it did feel
456
00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:21,650
pretty intuitive, I'd say.
457
00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,109
I see. And and did did you have
458
00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:26,930
much contact with with your fellow students?
459
00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:29,815
Did did you get an idea for for
460
00:17:29,815 --> 00:17:32,134
who they were and and and why they
461
00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:32,795
were there?
462
00:17:34,134 --> 00:17:35,015
Partially. I suppose,
463
00:17:35,575 --> 00:17:37,115
mainly contacts was
464
00:17:37,734 --> 00:17:38,474
through tutorials.
465
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:41,430
And so I guess there was a there
466
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:42,789
was a range. There were some people who
467
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:45,029
would love to, like, also speak up and
468
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:47,109
we can engage, and some who are more
469
00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:47,609
reserved.
470
00:17:49,109 --> 00:17:50,390
I suppose, Bob, do you have something you'd
471
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:52,970
like to say? Yeah. Bob, go ahead. So
472
00:17:53,134 --> 00:17:54,755
so we had a lot of restrictions
473
00:17:55,055 --> 00:17:57,295
imposed on us because we were doing an
474
00:17:57,295 --> 00:17:59,535
experiment with minors. So one of the things
475
00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:01,215
we wanted to do is a lot more
476
00:18:01,215 --> 00:18:03,615
social media so that students could interact with
477
00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:06,279
each other, but we were told, no. Not
478
00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:08,440
do that. And so it was quite a
479
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,420
bunch of restrictions
480
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:11,180
that we were imposing
481
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,160
on us to the extent that at some
482
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,680
point, I said, no. We are just gonna
483
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,599
pull it because this is not a normal
484
00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:19,575
teaching experience. And then Alex convinced me to
485
00:18:19,575 --> 00:18:21,974
to keep going because I thought, okay. This
486
00:18:21,974 --> 00:18:23,734
is not gonna work. This the results are
487
00:18:23,734 --> 00:18:25,974
not gonna be good because this is not
488
00:18:25,974 --> 00:18:27,734
a normal I mean, I should say something
489
00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:30,055
else, and I don't want to embarrass Arjan,
490
00:18:30,055 --> 00:18:32,289
but like, most of the students just had
491
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:33,190
a black screen.
492
00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:36,609
And and they didn't ask questions. They typed
493
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:38,769
questions. And then I wrote, like, an email,
494
00:18:38,769 --> 00:18:41,409
a long email saying, please, please, show your
495
00:18:41,409 --> 00:18:44,054
screens and speak. Because as a teacher, we
496
00:18:44,054 --> 00:18:45,835
need to see your facial, like, articulations.
497
00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:47,815
We need to hear the tone of your
498
00:18:47,815 --> 00:18:50,394
voice because that's part of a teaching. Teacher
499
00:18:50,535 --> 00:18:53,575
teacher student interaction. And I think for, yeah,
500
00:18:53,575 --> 00:18:56,054
five seconds, some some screens went down, and
501
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:57,434
then they were back again.
502
00:19:00,029 --> 00:19:01,230
So so it sounds,
503
00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:02,429
Arjun, that,
504
00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:05,250
the the sort of remote nature of it
505
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:08,509
was a bit difficult. Or or or I
506
00:19:08,509 --> 00:19:11,089
don't know. Maybe maybe you were happy with,
507
00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,825
with that. Or is there anything is there
508
00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:16,384
anything else that you'd add, to what Bob
509
00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:18,465
said in terms of how it could have
510
00:19:18,465 --> 00:19:20,164
been improved? I mean, I'm guessing
511
00:19:20,625 --> 00:19:22,164
actually going to Oxford,
512
00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:24,705
if that was possible and and doing it
513
00:19:24,705 --> 00:19:28,065
in person would have been fantastic, but maybe
514
00:19:28,065 --> 00:19:28,805
not possible.
515
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,440
Yes. I think,
516
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,420
overall,
517
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,039
I suppose, just naturally teaching online is a
518
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:35,660
bit like, it can be quite in person.
519
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,519
And I guess as Bob said, not many
520
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,759
people did always turn on their cameras or
521
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:41,259
respond.
522
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,522
I just feel bad sometimes for some of
523
00:19:43,522 --> 00:19:45,724
the tutors because we had that awkward silence
524
00:19:45,724 --> 00:19:46,785
for a couple of seconds.
525
00:19:47,404 --> 00:19:47,904
Mhmm.
526
00:19:48,684 --> 00:19:50,365
But, I mean, I I suppose some benefits
527
00:19:50,365 --> 00:19:52,125
was that sometimes I would I would be
528
00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,724
able to message my friends and we could,
529
00:19:53,724 --> 00:19:54,224
like,
530
00:19:55,325 --> 00:19:56,625
we could discuss things,
531
00:19:58,204 --> 00:19:59,105
somewhat freely.
532
00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,109
But I guess that, that was not to
533
00:20:01,109 --> 00:20:02,309
the benefit of the tutors because they have
534
00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:03,529
no idea what we're discussing.
535
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:08,309
But yeah. So so I think just the
536
00:20:08,309 --> 00:20:09,910
online like, as you said, being in person
537
00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:10,730
would have been,
538
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:12,255
perhaps a bit more
539
00:20:13,214 --> 00:20:14,434
invested. But yeah.
540
00:20:15,134 --> 00:20:17,634
And and so what's your view on quantum
541
00:20:17,694 --> 00:20:18,194
physics,
542
00:20:19,454 --> 00:20:21,134
after having taken the course? Are you
543
00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:24,194
I I I understand you you're at university
544
00:20:24,335 --> 00:20:25,075
at the moment.
545
00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,720
Are are are you doing physics? Do you
546
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,299
do you plan to pursue a career in
547
00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:32,059
quantum science and technology,
548
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,519
or have you have you put your interest
549
00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:35,500
on the back burner?
550
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,159
I would say yes. I, like so I'm
551
00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:40,220
currently studying mathematics,
552
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:42,045
but
553
00:20:42,525 --> 00:20:43,965
it was one of my intentions to actually
554
00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:44,465
do,
555
00:20:45,164 --> 00:20:47,244
like, the quantum modules within my second and
556
00:20:47,244 --> 00:20:48,924
third year. So I'm now coming towards the
557
00:20:48,924 --> 00:20:50,125
end of my first year. And,
558
00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:53,805
yes, I thought, and I thought it's one
559
00:20:53,805 --> 00:20:55,404
thing because I do remember speaking to lots
560
00:20:55,404 --> 00:20:57,579
of tutors about, like, as, I guess, Bob
561
00:20:57,579 --> 00:20:59,419
said, like, there's lots of a mat, maths
562
00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:01,759
towards it. And I thought perhaps by doing
563
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:03,740
just maths, then I would be able to
564
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,359
understand those, like,
565
00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:07,819
I'd be able to read more literature and
566
00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:09,039
perhaps have better understanding.
567
00:21:11,454 --> 00:21:12,654
And so, yes, I mean,
568
00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:15,454
I would say I haven't done much more
569
00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,234
in terms of the extracurricular side.
570
00:21:19,694 --> 00:21:21,794
But I think just also seeing the possibilities
571
00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:22,920
throughout the course,
572
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,500
like, just creating algorithms
573
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:27,799
seemed fascinating to me.
574
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,960
I remember I think they did mention one
575
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,500
about solving prime numbers
576
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,539
or, like,
577
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,220
factors
578
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,500
like prime factorization
579
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:36,299
using,
580
00:21:36,944 --> 00:21:39,284
like, quantum algorithms, I thought was really cool.
581
00:21:39,505 --> 00:21:42,144
I see. And you as a you you're
582
00:21:42,144 --> 00:21:44,404
doing maths at university, but
583
00:21:44,704 --> 00:21:46,884
it I mean, for maybe for the benefit
584
00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:49,265
of of of high school high schoolers who
585
00:21:49,265 --> 00:21:51,444
are listening and thinking, should I do physics?
586
00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:53,000
Should I do maths?
587
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,119
Do you have the opportunity to do
588
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,160
physics
589
00:21:57,539 --> 00:21:59,720
as a mathematician? You know, for example,
590
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,600
doing,
591
00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,039
mechanics and and quantum physics.
592
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,335
If you wish, can you can you study
593
00:22:08,335 --> 00:22:10,194
those things in your course?
594
00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:13,555
I suppose yeah. So currently,
595
00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,335
I just wanted to just show some mathematics
596
00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:18,494
I can. I think in the first term
597
00:22:18,734 --> 00:22:19,769
in the first year,
598
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:21,529
a lot of the content is kind of
599
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:23,289
pre cited. You get at least at Durham,
600
00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:24,509
we have one optional module.
601
00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,210
But then I don't think that goes towards
602
00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:29,369
quantum. It's only as within your second year
603
00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:31,470
where you could start to specialize more towards,
604
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:34,565
perhaps, like, quantum modules,
605
00:22:34,865 --> 00:22:36,804
mechanical modules, statistics probability.
606
00:22:37,345 --> 00:22:39,825
So I suppose definitely later on. Although, I
607
00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:41,664
do guess there's also the option of natural
608
00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,865
sciences in which,
609
00:22:43,585 --> 00:22:45,359
we can choose a combination of
610
00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:47,359
subjects. I like to do maths and physics
611
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,980
as as an option.
612
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,660
I see.
613
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000
And and what about the future? Do do
614
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,799
do you see a a career in quantum
615
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:57,859
science and technology
616
00:22:58,734 --> 00:23:00,034
in in your future,
617
00:23:00,494 --> 00:23:02,815
you know, after you've done after you've finished
618
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:03,554
with university?
619
00:23:04,815 --> 00:23:05,714
I would say
620
00:23:06,095 --> 00:23:07,075
probably, definitely,
621
00:23:07,375 --> 00:23:07,875
yes.
622
00:23:08,494 --> 00:23:09,474
Because I think
623
00:23:10,174 --> 00:23:12,254
the quantum space seems to, like, encapsulate all
624
00:23:12,254 --> 00:23:13,740
of my favorite subjects. Because for instance, for
625
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:15,900
a levels, I did math both math, physics,
626
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,920
computer science. I guess quantum computing
627
00:23:18,539 --> 00:23:20,079
is, in a way, all of those.
628
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:21,680
So
629
00:23:22,059 --> 00:23:22,640
I think
630
00:23:23,099 --> 00:23:23,920
also perhaps
631
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:26,595
because it's so new, I think it's something
632
00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:28,295
that would always keep me interested.
633
00:23:28,674 --> 00:23:29,795
So I think something I would always be
634
00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:31,015
enjoyed and pretend doing
635
00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:32,054
regardless.
636
00:23:33,554 --> 00:23:35,795
I see. Good good stuff. And,
637
00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,755
I mean, obviously, the the summer course has
638
00:23:38,755 --> 00:23:39,255
been,
639
00:23:40,589 --> 00:23:43,869
well, Arjun has you've really enjoyed it, and
640
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:46,509
it's encouraged you to to look at quantum
641
00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:47,490
science and technology
642
00:23:48,190 --> 00:23:50,349
as a career. But but, Alex, I understand
643
00:23:50,349 --> 00:23:52,750
that it's it's not just Arjun who's who
644
00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:53,809
did very well.
645
00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,325
You you you had, you had the students
646
00:23:58,325 --> 00:24:00,424
sit a university level exam
647
00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,884
on quantum physics at the end of the
648
00:24:02,884 --> 00:24:03,605
course, and,
649
00:24:04,164 --> 00:24:06,404
I think you were extremely pleased with the
650
00:24:06,404 --> 00:24:08,184
outcome. What what happened, Alex?
651
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:10,470
Yeah. That's right. So so at the end,
652
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:12,890
we gave them an exam which had all,
653
00:24:13,509 --> 00:24:14,009
previous,
654
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:17,269
exam questions that that Bob or I have
655
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:20,230
given on an exam to master students in
656
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:22,304
in past years. So we just sort of
657
00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:23,204
put that together,
658
00:24:23,585 --> 00:24:25,845
adapted a little bit to match the terminology
659
00:24:25,904 --> 00:24:27,684
of the course, and just gave that exam,
660
00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:29,605
really having no idea,
661
00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,144
what we're what we're gonna get back from
662
00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:32,644
this.
663
00:24:33,505 --> 00:24:34,005
And
664
00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:35,750
we're pleased to see that most of the
665
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,210
students passed and,
666
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:40,329
something like forty percent,
667
00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:44,089
or, yeah, around around that actually got distinctions
668
00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:46,250
or or first class marks and things.
669
00:24:47,429 --> 00:24:49,369
So so, yeah, that was really great.
670
00:24:50,265 --> 00:24:51,884
And one of the things I noticed
671
00:24:52,265 --> 00:24:54,664
kind of qualitatively when marking the exam is
672
00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:56,205
that some of the students understood
673
00:24:57,065 --> 00:24:58,445
certain concepts and
674
00:24:58,825 --> 00:24:59,884
possibly even
675
00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:02,125
even in a better way than I see,
676
00:25:02,505 --> 00:25:03,805
with the graduate students.
677
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,490
So so really an example of that is
678
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,269
this idea of nondeterminism,
679
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:12,610
in quantum theory. So for instance, I do
680
00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:15,110
a I do a quantum measurement. It collapses
681
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:16,850
my state, and I I don't get to
682
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:17,350
control
683
00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,464
what state it collapses to. Right? So the
684
00:25:20,464 --> 00:25:22,704
quantum theory has this idea of this kind
685
00:25:22,704 --> 00:25:23,525
of irreducible
686
00:25:24,305 --> 00:25:24,805
nondeterminism,
687
00:25:26,305 --> 00:25:27,605
and quantum computing
688
00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:30,224
really uses this in in the way that
689
00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:31,825
it designs some things. Right? I do a
690
00:25:31,825 --> 00:25:33,919
measurement. This has some sort of action,
691
00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:36,059
and I have to account for that in
692
00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:37,039
a certain way.
693
00:25:37,899 --> 00:25:39,419
And I saw in the way that that
694
00:25:39,419 --> 00:25:41,500
many of the students answered these questions that
695
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,419
they that I think they understood that in
696
00:25:43,419 --> 00:25:44,240
a way that
697
00:25:44,619 --> 00:25:47,099
that was sort of more fundamental, I would
698
00:25:47,099 --> 00:25:48,399
say, than than
699
00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:51,295
than than some university level students.
700
00:25:51,835 --> 00:25:54,154
That that could be that they they aren't
701
00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:56,654
as accustomed to a more traditional or
702
00:25:56,955 --> 00:25:57,455
classical
703
00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,154
way of thinking already that a computer scientist
704
00:26:00,154 --> 00:26:02,494
or physicist would get in in in university.
705
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:06,519
And, Arjun, did you enjoy doing the exam?
706
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:08,619
I mean, maybe enjoy is the wrong word.
707
00:26:08,679 --> 00:26:09,000
But,
708
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359
did did you, did did you find it
709
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,799
was it a nice way to end the
710
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:14,299
course?
711
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:17,525
I think so. I mean, I'm very reluctant
712
00:26:17,525 --> 00:26:19,125
to say I enjoyed an exam, but,
713
00:26:20,244 --> 00:26:21,704
it was definitely nice to have,
714
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:23,765
I guess, more like, because I think one
715
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:25,365
of the things is, actually doing lots of
716
00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,044
questions were really interesting because it was a
717
00:26:27,044 --> 00:26:28,884
way to practice and actually apply what we
718
00:26:28,884 --> 00:26:29,544
had learned.
719
00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:30,519
And,
720
00:26:30,819 --> 00:26:31,880
I guess the exam
721
00:26:32,579 --> 00:26:34,519
was definitely a nice way of doing it.
722
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:37,799
And, gosh, I'm trying to remember exactly.
723
00:26:38,259 --> 00:26:39,720
It's been a while. But
724
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:41,720
I think,
725
00:26:42,734 --> 00:26:43,795
I I mean, I remember
726
00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:45,954
slightly struggling with it initially,
727
00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:47,535
because it was once again, it was one
728
00:26:47,535 --> 00:26:49,954
of those things which is uncertainty. Like, how
729
00:26:50,255 --> 00:26:52,255
how right is my answer? How correct is
730
00:26:52,255 --> 00:26:53,134
it? But,
731
00:26:53,615 --> 00:26:54,515
no. It was definitely,
732
00:26:55,214 --> 00:26:56,160
interesting and
733
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,460
enjoyable.
734
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,099
Oh, that's great.
735
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,140
And,
736
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,059
and, Bob,
737
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,820
final question,
738
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,940
for you.
739
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,559
Do you think that a version of the
740
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,140
summer course could be integrated into
741
00:27:11,575 --> 00:27:13,674
a high school physics curriculum.
742
00:27:14,215 --> 00:27:16,535
And may maybe that's something that that you
743
00:27:16,535 --> 00:27:18,634
and Alex and your colleagues are working
744
00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:21,255
towards now. Is is that something that we
745
00:27:21,255 --> 00:27:21,994
could see?
746
00:27:22,934 --> 00:27:24,634
It is already happening, actually.
747
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,619
Like,
748
00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:26,599
Greece
749
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,720
was the first country to basically start using,
750
00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:32,599
this this language methodology
751
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:34,119
at high school level.
752
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:36,500
So that there is a translation out now,
753
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,759
which was really pushed by by the the
754
00:27:39,964 --> 00:27:40,704
the mathematics
755
00:27:41,005 --> 00:27:42,065
sort of teaching
756
00:27:42,525 --> 00:27:43,984
council in Greece.
757
00:27:44,285 --> 00:27:46,125
So, I mean I mean, it's probably not
758
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:48,144
an accident that it's Greek because
759
00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:50,384
as I was hinting at earlier,
760
00:27:51,404 --> 00:27:53,805
this language is not something you contrast with
761
00:27:53,805 --> 00:27:57,069
classical physics. I think this language basically goes
762
00:27:57,069 --> 00:28:00,669
back to before 2,400
763
00:28:00,669 --> 00:28:02,529
of western scientific tradition
764
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,009
to the pre Socratics in Greece.
765
00:28:06,029 --> 00:28:09,329
Because that's the moment when western science decided
766
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,450
to become mainly
767
00:28:10,974 --> 00:28:11,954
it, reductionist
768
00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:13,234
following Democritus
769
00:28:13,855 --> 00:28:16,835
and having quite a static kinematic based view
770
00:28:16,894 --> 00:28:18,434
following a guy called Parmenides.
771
00:28:18,894 --> 00:28:20,494
On the other hand, you've got people like
772
00:28:20,494 --> 00:28:22,654
Heraclitus who had, like, a process based view
773
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:23,315
on reality,
774
00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:26,190
Leibniz who has, like, an interactive relational view
775
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,289
on reality. And these pictures, without
776
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:30,990
people probably realizing it, they are much an
777
00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:33,630
embracement of a post process based view and
778
00:28:33,630 --> 00:28:37,484
an interactive view. And, so so so something
779
00:28:37,484 --> 00:28:40,284
Alex was hinting out, about, like, they didn't
780
00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:42,684
the people maybe not have been much as
781
00:28:42,684 --> 00:28:43,585
much as subjected
782
00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,365
to, like, western thinking may actually be an
783
00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:48,204
advantage. We kind of saw that the 15
784
00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:49,884
year olds were doing better than the 17
785
00:28:49,884 --> 00:28:52,099
year olds, which kind of proved that point
786
00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:53,720
that the less you've learned,
787
00:28:54,419 --> 00:28:55,799
the less you have to unlearn.
788
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,419
And that's in particular why I think it's
789
00:28:58,419 --> 00:29:00,839
really important to start this stuff very early.
790
00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559
And,
791
00:29:02,259 --> 00:29:04,099
I got a few people now working on
792
00:29:04,099 --> 00:29:06,015
this. Like, we're we're we're talking to many,
793
00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:08,575
many places in the world, like, where they
794
00:29:08,575 --> 00:29:09,555
want to start
795
00:29:10,255 --> 00:29:11,934
this in a pro so one country is,
796
00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:14,755
like, wanting to do high school, teaching
797
00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:16,994
using this is Ghana,
798
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,470
for example. So and, we we also have
799
00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:23,109
a collaboration which is now now funded with
800
00:29:23,329 --> 00:29:23,829
Colorado
801
00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:25,589
Colorado state schools.
802
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:28,869
So several places in the world are starting
803
00:29:28,929 --> 00:29:29,429
to,
804
00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:32,565
have we we we are doing an Ukrainian
805
00:29:32,625 --> 00:29:35,125
translation, by the way, too, on the initiative
806
00:29:35,744 --> 00:29:36,484
from Ukraine
807
00:29:37,424 --> 00:29:39,265
of of the book. So lots of places
808
00:29:39,265 --> 00:29:42,005
are now starting to want to integrate this,
809
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:44,340
But it it's all quite recent. You know?
810
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:46,660
So it's a very ongoing process, and I
811
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:49,059
expect if we speak in a year about
812
00:29:49,059 --> 00:29:52,200
this, their story will be much more advanced
813
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:55,434
and much more, yeah, broader in where and
814
00:29:55,434 --> 00:29:57,914
when this stuff is being, integrated in high
815
00:29:57,914 --> 00:29:59,994
school curriculum. But it should be. It should
816
00:29:59,994 --> 00:30:02,154
happen. It's not just about quantum. It's about
817
00:30:02,154 --> 00:30:04,174
a changing world view to a more relational
818
00:30:04,715 --> 00:30:06,015
and process kind of
819
00:30:06,475 --> 00:30:09,250
way of thinking, which which also makes the
820
00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:11,349
the sciences and humanities a little bit closer.
821
00:30:11,809 --> 00:30:13,890
I see. And and what about you, Arjun?
822
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,890
I mean, you're out of all of us,
823
00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:18,529
you're the closest to to having been in
824
00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:19,269
high school.
825
00:30:20,529 --> 00:30:22,210
Do I mean, do you would you have
826
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:22,710
enjoyed,
827
00:30:24,095 --> 00:30:25,154
seeing this material,
828
00:30:25,855 --> 00:30:27,394
you know, when you're doing your
829
00:30:28,255 --> 00:30:29,955
physics a level or
830
00:30:30,494 --> 00:30:32,434
a mathematics a level or even,
831
00:30:33,215 --> 00:30:34,355
at a lower level,
832
00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:36,654
at a younger age in high school? Do
833
00:30:36,654 --> 00:30:38,335
you think it would be it would be
834
00:30:38,335 --> 00:30:39,154
very useful?
835
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:42,470
I'd yeah. I definitely think so,
836
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:43,450
because
837
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:46,329
I think it's something that could,
838
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:49,269
it could be like a nice way to
839
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:50,950
kind of unite, I guess, physics and computer
840
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:52,970
science. So for physicists and computer science students,
841
00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,934
it, I mean, perhaps creating some algorithms where
842
00:30:55,934 --> 00:30:57,234
they're, like, perhaps more
843
00:30:58,734 --> 00:31:01,134
simplistic, could be nice. And then also, I
844
00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:01,775
suppose that,
845
00:31:02,734 --> 00:31:04,674
it would probably make people more aware,
846
00:31:05,775 --> 00:31:07,455
of just, like, a small if I call
847
00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:08,670
it physics, I guess, by
848
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:10,109
just,
849
00:31:10,590 --> 00:31:11,650
giving more exposure.
850
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:16,509
And so, yeah, I think it definitely would
851
00:31:16,509 --> 00:31:17,330
have been nice.
852
00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:18,690
And I think also,
853
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:21,765
as both Alex and Bob Sway were saying,
854
00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:25,825
by at that point, we've learned less classical
855
00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:26,644
way of thinking,
856
00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:29,525
for math and physics. So it would be
857
00:31:29,904 --> 00:31:31,444
it would make that easier more intuitive.
858
00:31:32,224 --> 00:31:34,460
I see. And and maybe I'll I'll throw
859
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:35,759
this out to to Alex,
860
00:31:36,139 --> 00:31:36,639
first.
861
00:31:37,579 --> 00:31:39,679
What about even younger children
862
00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:41,359
and,
863
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,220
you know, people who have done finished their
864
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:44,720
schooling?
865
00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,755
You know, I'm thinking of primary aid primary
866
00:31:47,755 --> 00:31:48,894
school age children
867
00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:50,174
and,
868
00:31:50,954 --> 00:31:53,914
just just the interested public. I mean, is
869
00:31:53,914 --> 00:31:56,494
there a is there an argument for introducing
870
00:31:56,714 --> 00:31:58,654
or coming up with ways of introducing
871
00:31:59,019 --> 00:31:59,839
quantum physics,
872
00:32:00,779 --> 00:32:02,319
to to those groups of people.
873
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,119
Yeah. I think I think so.
874
00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:06,059
I mean, the,
875
00:32:07,579 --> 00:32:10,140
the original paper of Bob's that kind of
876
00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:13,200
kicked off this education idea was titled kindergarten
877
00:32:13,339 --> 00:32:14,240
quantum mechanics,
878
00:32:14,994 --> 00:32:16,595
which I think was a bit of a
879
00:32:16,595 --> 00:32:18,355
tongue in cheek title that, you know, we
880
00:32:18,355 --> 00:32:21,234
could teach quantum mechanics to kindergartners. But, I
881
00:32:21,234 --> 00:32:22,835
mean, I think it it'd be interesting to
882
00:32:22,835 --> 00:32:24,674
see just how far we can we can
883
00:32:24,674 --> 00:32:26,934
push this. And I I think for instance,
884
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,139
you know, I know anecdotally cases of 12,
885
00:32:30,139 --> 00:32:32,960
13 year olds reading reading Bob and Stefano's
886
00:32:33,019 --> 00:32:34,799
book and getting a lot out of it.
887
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:37,980
So thinking about different different levels to pitch
888
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,934
that at and also also having more materials
889
00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:42,615
that, you know, you can just share with
890
00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:44,375
your friends. Like, so for instance, if people
891
00:32:44,375 --> 00:32:46,855
are interested in pop science, but they don't
892
00:32:46,855 --> 00:32:49,654
have a mathematical background, they can sort of
893
00:32:49,815 --> 00:32:51,174
this kind of stuff, you can get your
894
00:32:51,174 --> 00:32:52,694
teeth into in a way that you can't,
895
00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:55,429
with a pop science book because here, you
896
00:32:55,429 --> 00:32:56,710
know, we give you something, and you can
897
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:58,629
really do some calculations. You can see what
898
00:32:58,629 --> 00:33:00,730
quantum theory is gonna tell you will happen.
899
00:33:01,589 --> 00:33:03,269
And I think that could be really appealing
900
00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:04,250
to a lot of people.
901
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:05,450
Okay.
902
00:33:05,804 --> 00:33:08,924
Well, that's great, guys. Bob, Alex, and Arjun,
903
00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:10,304
thanks so much for,
904
00:33:10,605 --> 00:33:11,904
speaking to me. Arjun,
905
00:33:12,924 --> 00:33:14,944
best of luck with your career
906
00:33:15,565 --> 00:33:17,345
in mathematics and hopefully,
907
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:19,264
quantum science and technology.
908
00:33:20,009 --> 00:33:20,410
And,
909
00:33:20,809 --> 00:33:21,309
Bob,
910
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:24,910
hope everything's going well at Quantinium. And, Alex,
911
00:33:25,769 --> 00:33:28,009
best wishes at Oxford. And thanks so much
912
00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:29,450
to all of you for coming on the
913
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:29,950
podcast.
914
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:32,170
Alright. Thanks, Hamish. Thank you. Thank you. It
915
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:33,464
was a pleasure to speak to you.
916
00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,505
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
917
00:33:42,505 --> 00:33:43,724
for this week's podcast.
918
00:33:44,105 --> 00:33:47,704
Thanks to Bob, Arjun, and Alex for joining
919
00:33:47,704 --> 00:33:50,160
me today, and a special thanks to our
920
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,539
producer Fred Isles.
921
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:55,220
I'll put links to Bob and Alex's books
922
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,059
in the notes for this episode.
923
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400
We'll be back again next week, but in
924
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,059
the meantime, do check out the latest episode
925
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,755
of the Physics World Stories podcast,
926
00:34:06,294 --> 00:34:09,434
which features an interview with Linda Williams,
927
00:34:10,054 --> 00:34:10,554
physicist,
928
00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:11,434
performer,
929
00:34:11,815 --> 00:34:12,954
and self styled
930
00:34:13,494 --> 00:34:14,554
physics Chantouse.
931
00:34:15,494 --> 00:34:18,534
She tells host Andrew Glester about her latest
932
00:34:18,534 --> 00:34:20,210
show called Atomic
933
00:34:20,829 --> 00:34:21,329
Cabaret,
934
00:34:21,789 --> 00:34:24,609
and they chat about how she combines science
935
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:25,650
with music,
936
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:28,130
satire, and performance art.
937
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,809
That episode is called the Physics Chantouse,
938
00:34:32,349 --> 00:34:35,304
when science hits a high note, and you
939
00:34:35,304 --> 00:34:37,644
can find it on the Physics World website
940
00:34:37,945 --> 00:34:41,005
or at your favorite podcast provider.
