Episode 10. From Operators to Optimists: The Future of Marketing and Markets with Nick Shackelford, Digital Marketing Entrepreneur

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What's up, everyone? Happy 2026. Welcome back.
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Hope the new year is treating you all well. This
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is another episode of Performance Marketing Minds
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brought to you by Outbrained Direct Response.
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I'm your host Joe Adana. And today I've got my
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man Nick Shackelford on the podcast. It was such
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an awesome conversation. I mean, we are so similar
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in ways that we didn't even know. And what started
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off thinking it would be a marketing podcast
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that I've had questions for a long time for Nick
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really turned into more about life. uh, legacy
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business, finance, parenting, and all kinds of
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stuff in between. So definitely more of a philosophical
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type podcast, but super enjoyable. And I'm really
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grateful to Nick for hopping on and doing this
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with me. So without further ado, enjoy my conversation
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with Nick Shackelford. In the beginning of this,
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you're saying you have your hands full and you're
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one of those people that I never know how you
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have enough time in the day to do everything
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that you do in general. So that's an interesting
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place to kind of kick it off and continue that
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conversation. But Nick, you're probably one of
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the busiest people I know, is what it seems from
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the outside looking in. I mean, multiple time
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founder, annual investor at so many different
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things. are currently working at probably five
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or six businesses that you've either started
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or partnered on. You have a kid and how do you
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do it all? How do you do it all with so much
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shit flying around everywhere? I think I would
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have to take it back because from the beginning,
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so when I went to university, the only way I
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went to university and I'm 35 now, so it's been
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a long time since I've taught the university
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stuff. But it was always, you go to school, I
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was a division one athlete, Cal, then St. Louis,
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and then I had to pay my way because we couldn't
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afford it. So it was like, you had to go to school,
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you had to keep grades, you had to play, train,
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workout, and you also had to go work. So from
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very, very early, before you knew what quote
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unquote responsibility was, I didn't have a choice.
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The play was always full. So the overwhelm was
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always where it needed to be. to where like,
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I think now if I just pretend I'm just in university
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or in school, this is kind of the same thing.
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The only difference in this area is like, it's
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tens of millions of dollars. It is hundreds of
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millions of spend. It is real products that impact
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real people's lives. So it's like an interesting
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way of, it looks, and trust me, it looks like
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a lot from the outside. It's a lot from the inside,
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right? Like it is so much on the inside, but
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I don't know. if it would have it any way. And
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I actually, I actually think this is an interesting
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debate because before we, everybody went work
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from home and like work from home gives you some
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people like it, some people don't, but what it
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really do is like, well, you could, you could
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kind of measure someone's output and their actual
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effectiveness of work that they're doing because
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now you're going like, well, they're either working,
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they're either getting this to be really quick
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or they get it to be this not as quick or it
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seems like I have to follow this person multiple
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times. What were they even doing when they're
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in the office? Like there's these weird things
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to think through. And we've always been this
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way. Like myself, the companies are, we've always
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been remote except when I was an employee and
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worked for other ones, I was in person in office.
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So I think natively and naturally it was a lot
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of things to be done. And I enjoyed doing a lot
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of things. And where most people have hobbies
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or things they like to do extracurricular, my
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hobbies and extracurricular is the shift of business.
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So it's like, you have agency, you have three
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agencies. You have structured just for the group
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to understand where we're talking about this.
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Everything is digital. I have no retail businesses.
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I have no brick and mortar. Everything's online.
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It's ads. You're one saving grace. You get one
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pass. I'm like niched. I'm like niched down,
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right? Oh yeah. We have structured, which is
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a full service agency. We have constant, which
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is an offshore editing and support. Lucid, which
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is full service in a specific niche agency. Breeze,
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which is a beverage, Commerce Roundtable, which
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is an in -person event, Geek Out, which is an
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in -person event. And then there's like a number
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of other projects like I contribute to on various
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levels. And all of them fall within what I'm
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best at. And the ones that I'm not best at, the
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team that supports me or that executes on the
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daily is good enough to work in a way where my
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involvement is needed daily, but not as an implementation.
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So it kind of works. I don't know. Yeah. It's
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like the Musk mentality. Everyone's like, how
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does he have time to do SpaceX and Tesla and
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all these different things? And he isn't the
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one doing all the implementation. He's just kind
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of the guiding light between everything and he'll
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put his foot in the ring when he needs to and
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give guidance and everything. But I feel like
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it's the same as that kind of. I would, I never
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been compared to Musk and I, and I think I have
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the levels of, I have, I have similar levels
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of autism. I promise you it's a spectrum of the
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it's yeah, it's, it's a People fall on it somewhere.
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I like to say to my wife the the difference here.
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I think is the I Enjoyed the overwhelm and although
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sometimes it does get a little bit too much there's
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Balance in like the data did like is normally
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life is fine like my wife and my kid Kingsley
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Kingsley's 20 months old right so you can always
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there's like a level of Overwhelmed that that
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just naturally asked your life, but you can't
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really control it. You're kind of just existing
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with it. Yeah We just had ours six weeks ago.
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So I'm learning the Uncontrollable and just kind
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of like sitting in it, you know, I'm just being
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this is what it is But I've you know, it's funny
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take it a step back I've often posed myself this
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question because I've had a similar upbringing.
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I played a vision one sport I paid for it myself
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lost my academic money and Had to take out a
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bigger loan for my for myself at the end and
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pay it back and I always like You know, there
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are times throughout the years that I've spoken
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to my therapist about this of just saying, I
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wonder what life would be like if my parents
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were really wealthy and I had it set up differently.
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Like, would I actually be as successful as I
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am if I had some more cush kind of set up and
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not feeling overwhelmed at the same time? Because
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it was very similar. You know, I had a job in
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college, played the sport, got no help from my
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parents after school and had to have, you know,
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Just figure it out. And some of it is that superpower
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that your parents or your upbringing gave you.
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Um, but at the same time, you kind of resent
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it a little bit and you're like, man, I wish
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you guys. You know, we're a little bit more supportive,
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not even on the financial side, but just like
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emotionally and stuff. And I'm like, man, what
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would life be like? Would it be different? Would
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I have the same job? Would I do something? You
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know, that brings me more joy. I don't know,
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but it's something I think about too. And ultimately
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I come to. It doesn't even matter anyway. And
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this just is what it is, you know? And it's been
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a superpower, I think. And it's also been more
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of a stressor at times, but yeah, I think about
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that a lot. I'll run with that with you, because
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I actually resonate with that tremendously. My
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parents early on split, and that was very real.
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I was 13, 14, so I was very coming into who I
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was as a man, as an individual. And I like to
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say my dad was an incredible man. probably could
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have been a better dad. And so now seeing him,
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and you'll go through this too, like seeing him
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know that, like recognizing him, knowing that
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what I know of how he was and how he is now his
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grandpa to my son is a very meta relationship
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that I'm starting to witness and understand and
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go through. And I think if it was a cushy way
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up, if it was, because the thing that you know,
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and I know now is our threshold of overwhelm,
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To truly feel overwhelmed is like very high compared
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to most most normal people that are executing
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or get get overwhelmed at certain things It's
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hard to relate with other people's over. I mean
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like that's overwhelming to you like that's interesting
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But for because the the discipline needed for
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execution and be an athlete to get any sort of
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contract Whatever we were another school whether
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you went SEC like I was I went pack 10 or pack
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12 at the time To Cal and then it went into st.
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Louis, which is a 10. It was always contributing
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playing starting captain bullshit But to get
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to that level, there's a stress that you have
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to withstand. And so when you take that into
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business, dude, it's still scoreboard. Like there's
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still dollars. Like everything is still scoreboard,
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which is why I always want to be tied to either
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your generating revenue or your preserving revenue.
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Like that is where I find myself. I couldn't
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be in an area where you're like, maybe he's contributing
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or maybe he's helping. It doesn't seem, it seems
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weird, right? Yeah. No, I did. I went through
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the same thing because I early on in my career,
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I've been with Albrain Tees for 10 years. And
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I remember there was a point at like all your
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four years. And I said, I kind of like the business
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side of things on the backend and helping problem
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solve. Let me sit on some operational and product
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meetings and let me just check it out. And I
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did it for like a month or two. And I just remember
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taking a step back and being like, no way, you
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know, like I need to be in the front. I need
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to be in sales and not even on the account management
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side. Cause I started as an account manager,
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but I like. The relationships I like being tied
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to revenue and it's a hundred percent the competitive
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thing like even internally at my own company
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because we employ You know 1 ,500 people there's
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hundreds of sellers and I verbatim told them
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I want to kick your ass Like I want to my team
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to outpace you guys three times over and it's
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friendly but that's where it comes I think from
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the athletic background and potentially video
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games too, but Yeah, it's very it's very real
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My brother's my brother on the video game side.
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He was a pretty high -level League of Legends
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player He's a couple years shorter than or a
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couple years younger than me Taller than me.
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So definitely sure younger and he was a high
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-level League of Legends and he is in medical
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device sales He was like he's a very mellow balanced,
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dude, and I'm always like do I do even work?
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He goes I work my ass off till I hit that goal,
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but I chill real hard And it's interesting because
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guys that are like, you eat what you kill in
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the terms of like closing and hunting and onboarding.
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But as soon as he gets it, he goes like, done.
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I hit my number. I'm above my number or like
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I get it in a time that's most quicker than others.
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And I do think that's a blessing. I think that
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the ability to sell or the ability to be in the
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discomfort of a timeline or how do you say this?
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Like it's very raw, but like you have carcasses
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that you have to stack. Like we all have this
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thing. And that is, I like that. I think that's
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like the natural place to play. Yeah, and people
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from my company are probably listening so I'm
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gonna too much detail but there's been many of
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Fridays and Thursday afternoons that I've just
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taken off because it's been You know 120 percent
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150 percent and just been like, you know what?
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I've completely scored myself and I'm gonna yeah
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and How much more can I do? But also I also need
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time to refresh my brain after that like you
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get to a point where there's this blow -off top
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especially in med device sales and especially
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video games it's like You get to this over exhausting
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point and it's not even going to be worth it
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to you or the company or clients, you know, like
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the relationships that eventually gets backwards
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in the bell curve. You start going negative again.
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So yeah, finding that rhythm and balances that
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like from a sales side, I think that's what makes
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you a senior salesperson. Like it's not about
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the pipeline management and the followups and
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stuff like that, but it's being able to almost
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like gut check yourself and be able to, I don't
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know. Throttle. Yeah. Throttle and be honest
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when you are allowed to throttle and not just
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take the time on like the Tuesday afternoon to
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go get a coffee for an hour, you know, or something
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like that. So it's interesting. I also think
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that's, so we are, I'm 35 and I, because obviously
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we play, so, so Breeze will do just over like
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40 million this year. We're three, three -ish
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years old, like the, the DC side of things. It's
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like pretty crazy. year one was like one mil,
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year two was like 28 mil. This year we'll do
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.159
40 plus. And so it's like the trajectory has
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.960
grown like where we probably should have been
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.639
was like probably 70. That's crazy. That's crazy
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:27.539
to say like we should have been 70. And it actually
00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:30.279
is frustrating. Yeah. Like we're, we're new,
00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:31.899
we learn forecasting better, like beverages,
00:12:32.179 --> 00:12:34.299
difficult subscriptions, unique. We play in a
00:12:34.299 --> 00:12:39.560
great area. And I sit there and I go like, the
00:12:39.560 --> 00:12:42.720
ability to just sit in the discomfort for quite
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.559
some time in our space of digital marketing,
00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.919
because there's an understanding of there's ebbs
00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:54.799
and flows that you can't always manufacture accelerated
00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:56.639
growth in a time where the market just isn't
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.779
there for it. Does that make sense? Do you want
00:12:58.779 --> 00:13:01.340
me to reword that? Reword it for the audience
00:13:01.340 --> 00:13:09.409
and for me. There's certain seasons of your business
00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:14.129
and in the market that will accept you to scale
00:13:14.129 --> 00:13:16.289
or grow aggressively into it because they're
00:13:16.289 --> 00:13:18.009
ready for it. Like the market's ready. But the
00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:20.970
perfect trend is like mushroom coffee couldn't
00:13:20.970 --> 00:13:23.990
have been as big as it was if there wasn't a
00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:26.529
market going like what else? Like maybe I am
00:13:26.529 --> 00:13:28.350
interested in a coffee alternative. Like it always
00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:30.590
was just like coffee or energy drink. Like there
00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:32.710
wasn't a guy that was going like mud water or
00:13:32.710 --> 00:13:33.929
everyday dose or whatever these things are going
00:13:33.929 --> 00:13:36.539
to be like. the market was ready for those things,
00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:38.259
which is why they are scaling and they're able
00:13:38.259 --> 00:13:40.240
to officially market towards that. Same thing
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.279
with hydration, same thing with our beverage,
00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:45.580
right? Like we couldn't have accepted the stress
00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:48.820
or the threshold to go as hard as we can if the
00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:51.840
market wasn't willing or able to accept it. And
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.980
so now I based a lot of my projections or a lot
00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:59.399
of my involvement of projects around culturally
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:02.450
macro, like what is happening. What is happening?
00:14:02.590 --> 00:14:04.190
What is this moment right now? And like, is this
00:14:04.190 --> 00:14:06.389
something that has, I don't even want to say
00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:09.450
like generically does have large TAM, but is
00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:12.789
the large TAM accessible in the immediate? Is
00:14:12.789 --> 00:14:15.230
this going right now? Like, I wonder, put this
00:14:15.230 --> 00:14:18.149
back to your side, you guys get access to a lot
00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:21.309
of offers or you guys have the ability because
00:14:21.309 --> 00:14:23.230
of how much traffic and how much access to information
00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:26.389
data and products to kind of see cultural movements
00:14:26.389 --> 00:14:29.490
or things over time. Has there been anything
00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:31.429
this year and maybe even if you want to like,
00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:32.870
Futurecast cause we're towards the end of the
00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:35.549
year that you'd be like, Oh, I didn't really
00:14:35.549 --> 00:14:37.090
see that trend coming, but now it's here. I'm
00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:38.590
like, I definitely probably should have seen
00:14:38.590 --> 00:14:41.669
that trend. And then Futurecast would be like,
00:14:42.090 --> 00:14:44.470
you guys might see some of this new shit happening
00:14:44.470 --> 00:14:49.870
in 2026. I love this and you teed me up for something
00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:53.950
that I'm passionate about. So cool. I think the
00:14:53.950 --> 00:14:55.590
one thing that I should have seen that I didn't
00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:59.350
see is. People going back to hard assets in the
00:14:59.350 --> 00:15:01.210
financial space and the offers that come with
00:15:01.210 --> 00:15:03.870
them like gold gold like gold Okay. Yeah, like
00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:09.370
the gold offers in our world started doing really
00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:11.169
really well, and there was a couple agencies
00:15:11.169 --> 00:15:15.190
that Their spam was going off and I was looking
00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:16.549
at them and I was like, yeah, it's a gold offer
00:15:16.549 --> 00:15:17.950
like it's pretty interesting someone's finally
00:15:17.950 --> 00:15:24.700
getting it to work and me being like I don't
00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:27.960
know it was weird because usually I am so like
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:32.320
outside of work I am into understanding the financial
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.059
markets and the economy and so what's going on
00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:37.279
and like I knew that was going like I knew that
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:39.259
was a thing I knew it was happening and I knew
00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:41.480
that we were kind of snapping back because of
00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.440
all the inflation people want hard assets China
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.159
is buying gold when's it gonna come to us cost
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.659
people are selling out Costco and It was a couple
00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:51.299
months later where it started to pop off on the
00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:52.580
marketing side. I didn't even think anything
00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:54.399
of it. I was like, Oh, that's awesome. That's
00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.600
cool. Like someone's finally getting into it
00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.139
for them. Yeah. It's like debt relief on native.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.740
Nobody can ever get it to work. And maybe that's
00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:02.940
something to look forward to in the future with
00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:05.019
cause people are in debt. Who knows? But the
00:16:05.019 --> 00:16:08.419
whole thing is, uh, was super surprising to me,
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.980
although it shouldn't have been. And I don't
00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.159
know. I think as we kind of continue to go down
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.340
that path, like. There's something going on in
00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:21.600
the Bitcoin space Companies buying it a lot of
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.480
people buying it a lot of leverage getting wiped
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.279
out every single day and I just feel like in
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.500
2026 if This administration does what they said
00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:32.320
they were gonna do loosen restrictions allow
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.720
it to kind of continue retail hasn't even been
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.240
in Bitcoin really this year a little bit through
00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.659
some of like the you know financial advisors
00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:42.620
and stuff but once Bank of America JP Morgan
00:16:42.620 --> 00:16:44.080
and all these people start pushing it to their
00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.320
high -end clients and then actual retail like
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.059
You know, all of our friends and family start
00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:51.159
getting involved. I could see that on the marketing
00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.419
side, taking off. Cause back in like 2000, whatever
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:58.919
it was, 2017, the whole ICO craze, we had to
00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.159
just stop allowing things on because it got too
00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:02.820
crazy and people were losing money and getting
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:06.759
wiped out. And it was, it was insane. Um, I'm
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.859
on the Bitcoin, not crypto side, but I think
00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:12.440
that the Bitcoin stuff might be here as gold
00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:14.799
kind of starts first. And then people start to
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.900
get excited about it. I could be wrong. I hope
00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:21.460
I'm not but yeah I hope you're not I'm okay that's
00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.200
the gold thing so I I've I've always been in
00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.119
gold so we allocate a portion of my investment
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.240
buying on I think it's like one of the bullion
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.799
websites like I get I these guys must have the
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.740
most massive list and these guys save me all
00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:36.920
the time it's like one of the bullion emails
00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:38.880
I always buy like a couple bars every single
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.160
month and it's funny because I then I was like
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:43.859
why am I buying bars like where am I gonna do
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:48.259
with this And I've probably been buying for a
00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:50.539
year like I got good I got great price points
00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:52.640
across this whole way on the way up and I just
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.319
started having to buy GLD right I was just I'm
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.980
like in the market for gold and then I Listen
00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.380
to both sides of the spectrum because whether
00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:03.140
you're a for Trump against Trump doesn't necessarily
00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:05.019
matter because we have to make decisions of day
00:18:05.019 --> 00:18:07.640
to day I'm living in Orange County. So like I
00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.700
know we usually vote blue Even though like we
00:18:10.700 --> 00:18:12.950
have pockets of red everywhere. So it's I have
00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:14.589
to pay attention both sides and I listened to
00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:17.289
Scott Galloway on some of his podcasts and I've
00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:18.869
listened to him for quite a while because he
00:18:18.869 --> 00:18:21.849
has such a different view take than mine at times,
00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:24.849
but his view of like men and just like self -wealth
00:18:24.849 --> 00:18:26.789
and self -growth, plus like his marketing takes.
00:18:27.230 --> 00:18:30.089
And a lot of it was like protect or start investing
00:18:30.089 --> 00:18:32.769
or divesting from American going to emerging
00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:35.609
markets. And so I've spent a decent amount of
00:18:35.609 --> 00:18:38.789
portion of reallocating my current capital structure
00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:42.710
or current cash allocation of investment towards
00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:46.250
Europe, Asia, and the emerging markets agenda,
00:18:46.430 --> 00:18:49.230
like just straight up ETFs. I was like, I'm diversifying.
00:18:49.750 --> 00:18:53.509
I am obviously huge in pro America, but I think
00:18:53.509 --> 00:18:55.349
you kind of have to because of some of these
00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:58.170
weird price points. So I think, so that's, that's
00:18:58.170 --> 00:18:59.950
what I've seen this year and how I've been participating.
00:19:00.289 --> 00:19:03.710
Secondly, I think this debt relief and credit
00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.410
repair, I think this is going to have a crazy
00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:10.529
2026, dude. Oh my God. a close friend, maybe
00:19:10.529 --> 00:19:13.609
mutual, Anthony Sarandrea. Rings a bell. I don't
00:19:13.609 --> 00:19:17.089
know him personally. He exited one of his major,
00:19:17.569 --> 00:19:19.809
his core thing was that relief. And his thing
00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:22.250
was in this area. And I've been asking him a
00:19:22.250 --> 00:19:23.630
couple of questions and he's like, yeah, I think
00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.029
this is going to be 2026, 2027 as credit card
00:19:26.029 --> 00:19:28.650
continues to climb. And if the layoffs continue
00:19:28.650 --> 00:19:30.410
to happen, which it always spikes in Q4 anyway.
00:19:30.549 --> 00:19:33.849
So I don't know how real that is. I think that's
00:19:33.849 --> 00:19:35.250
a thing. I think that's definitely make money
00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:37.690
online because it might be a way back. I have
00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:40.250
had more interest this year. I've had less. I've
00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:45.190
had less requests of do the work with me or more
00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:47.069
teach me how to do my work, which is more like
00:19:47.069 --> 00:19:48.650
done with you, which than anything, which is
00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:55.450
very, very new for me. Do you think that it like,
00:19:55.509 --> 00:19:58.769
did you make a conscious effort to be kind of
00:19:58.769 --> 00:20:02.890
that expert on LinkedIn that might have Got you
00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:04.329
some of those and people like, Oh, this guy knows
00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:06.150
his shit. I'm going to reach out to him so he
00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:09.289
can help tell me what to do. Or I don't know.
00:20:09.349 --> 00:20:11.829
Was that like, were you trying to go down that
00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:14.230
route or was it more so like, were you trying
00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:16.329
to acquire customers for the agency or were you
00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:17.970
just like, you know what? I know a lot. And at
00:20:17.970 --> 00:20:19.750
this point, I just kind of want to share my knowledge
00:20:19.750 --> 00:20:22.049
with everybody. It's a good question. I have
00:20:22.049 --> 00:20:23.630
like such a macro thought around the content
00:20:23.630 --> 00:20:26.609
and how it's structured. So when I look at Nick
00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:29.529
as like, if it's going to be third person, bear
00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.970
with me. I'll land this plane. So like Nick is
00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:35.069
a business or like my holding company we call
00:20:35.069 --> 00:20:38.130
ourselves hold this and it's like if we were
00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:40.130
to hold these businesses or hold this bag or
00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:43.890
hold this whatever like You have structured which
00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:45.509
is agency and that services you have constant
00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:48.690
which is creative and paid media You have breeze
00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.289
which my core data is retention subscription
00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:54.529
Programming and then you have like all the other
00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:56.289
things I'm associated with but it's still like
00:20:56.289 --> 00:20:59.309
revolves around the digital space I go I have
00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:03.579
enough credibility enough hands -on enough contacts
00:21:03.579 --> 00:21:06.240
and enough of a unique perspective and delivery
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.599
of that perspective that I should make more of
00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.380
this content. I think that's how I approach LinkedIn.
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:13.299
That's how I approach Twitter. To the point where
00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:16.640
I have systems around how much I post, where
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.119
I post, when I'm talking. And I think the understanding
00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.059
of these structures specifically of what I want
00:21:23.059 --> 00:21:24.680
to talk about, how I want to share it, obviously
00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:26.700
is to the point of I want to talk to people.
00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:28.549
because what has this brought me, dude? And it's
00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:29.730
something that I've been, I've probably been
00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:32.130
super allowed to you on this is the more you
00:21:32.130 --> 00:21:34.930
can talk and tell people your opinion or your
00:21:34.930 --> 00:21:36.190
take on things, the more you're going to find
00:21:36.190 --> 00:21:37.849
alignment with people and the more you're going
00:21:37.849 --> 00:21:42.450
to find this or no alignment with other individuals,
00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:44.250
which is even better because now you're not having
00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:46.990
to waste anybody's time. And so I think for,
00:21:46.990 --> 00:21:48.710
I mean, I've been doing this since Tim Burr,
00:21:48.769 --> 00:21:51.210
man. I've been doing this since Facebook media
00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.670
buyer or like FB ads buyer group. Right? So this
00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:56.700
is 15 years of just talking and yapping into
00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:59.779
the void. And so I've hoped, I've hoped like
00:21:59.779 --> 00:22:02.099
today I think I might literally hit 69 ,000 followers
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:04.160
on Twitter. And I'm like, I can't wait to celebrate
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.779
that, right? Like noted. But even here is I was
00:22:08.779 --> 00:22:11.500
intentional with the messages being shared because
00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:15.279
of the benefit of partnerships, investments,
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:19.759
access, stages, like all the things that really
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.619
matter. You allowing me to be on this podcast
00:22:21.619 --> 00:22:23.849
and yap with you. I think that's important. I
00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:26.009
think we all have to end. Also, there's a crazy,
00:22:26.089 --> 00:22:28.490
did you see what happened with Liquid Death recently
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.529
on Twitter or LinkedIn? Not like in the last
00:22:31.529 --> 00:22:33.630
week, but like in a month or so. Did you see
00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:36.569
this? Okay. Yeah. So for the audience of what
00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:39.130
happened, basically there was like a line on
00:22:39.130 --> 00:22:42.549
their can of investment or they like claimed
00:22:42.549 --> 00:22:46.049
that they donated to a cause and that there wasn't
00:22:46.049 --> 00:22:48.470
like plastic somehow involved in their cans.
00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:51.059
But like most people know they're there's a little
00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:54.400
bit of a liner on plastic cans or aluminum cans
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.420
that there is some plastic involved in this stuff.
00:22:56.619 --> 00:22:58.400
I think that most people don't know that, but
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:03.319
when they found that out, basically Liquid Death,
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.099
because he wasn't talking and building from his
00:23:06.099 --> 00:23:08.559
personal page, he was using the business company
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.900
page, which, dude, Liquid Death is massive. They
00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:13.980
are a cultural phenomenon and huge. And so you
00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:15.460
need to be able to control a narrative or at
00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.640
least have an ability to tell your side through
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.259
your voice. no matter what from it, whether you're
00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:23.400
an employee, whether you're an owner of a certain
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.359
thing, and you don't want to drag the brand name
00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:28.079
through that. So that's also something that's
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.980
been reinforced for me. Yeah, that's a good point.
00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:33.740
I remember seeing it and I remember seeing it
00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:35.440
initially and I was like, oh, sometimes this
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.299
is good. You know, like sometimes when people
00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:40.599
respond from corporate accounts and it shows
00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.200
like the people behind the faceless X account
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.440
and then it started kind of tailed into like
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.500
him just going off and we said where's this going?
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.960
Yeah, I was like, holy shit. Like I don't know.
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:53.779
Okay. I was like now it's gotten to a point where
00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:57.599
Maybe he should stop talking or at least any
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:59.480
stocking to a guy that's baiting like he's talking
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.220
to a guy that like is a Professional at what
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:06.640
he's doing. Yeah, I know you can't you can't
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.220
win on X No, you really but I think that's that
00:24:09.220 --> 00:24:10.980
is the importance of like having an opinion around
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:12.980
and I think even from like a teed side from a
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:15.079
company perspective, you need to be able to control
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.619
the narrative. Dude, the growth that I've seen
00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:20.940
with B2B influencers or B2B content creation
00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:24.519
has changed, A, from being on the inside of it.
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:28.299
I've been a part of like crazy launches of new
00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:31.400
views. I've been a part of just like getting
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.500
downloads out there. I've been a part of like
00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:37.609
mass launches or individual ongoing pieces. That's
00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.829
real. Influencer or... Influencer is a weird
00:24:40.829 --> 00:24:42.710
term. Just like a professional speaking about
00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:46.670
the thing is so important, especially for B2B
00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:50.509
because you can see the person in using the tool
00:24:50.509 --> 00:24:53.009
or why they would use the tool in the role that
00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:55.369
you're in currently. And so the close rate is
00:24:55.369 --> 00:24:57.410
so much higher when the person is like, this
00:24:57.410 --> 00:24:59.210
makes sense to try. Perfect example. We talked
00:24:59.210 --> 00:25:02.109
about Apple oven, right? And at one point, we
00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:05.420
were running a backup on these guys and... for
00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:07.440
me to be like, I'm doing this and this is why
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.400
everybody else in my area was like, yeah, it's
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.839
clearly working. You have clear proof and social
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:14.920
credibility. We're going to get onto it. And
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:17.700
I just knowing that that was working. Now you
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.299
had to keep doing it to get people interested
00:25:19.299 --> 00:25:21.819
in it, but it is a real thing for you guys and
00:25:21.819 --> 00:25:24.880
anybody else in the space. Yeah. I feel like
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:26.980
I've seen some either a post from you or something
00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:29.059
like that, that talked about how influencer and
00:25:29.059 --> 00:25:30.920
affiliate marketing is kind of broken a little
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:35.230
bit. And. I want to, I think you kind of explained
00:25:35.230 --> 00:25:41.230
it a little bit, but on the B2B side, a lot of
00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:43.390
times I feel like there's just no clear message
00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:46.029
and people are just, you know, posting the posts
00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:48.049
and telling stories. And it got to the point
00:25:48.049 --> 00:25:50.490
where there's so much virtue signaling on LinkedIn
00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:54.710
and I, Oh, I had, I've written a lot of satirical
00:25:54.710 --> 00:25:56.769
posts and then deleted them. They've stayed in
00:25:56.769 --> 00:25:59.589
my drafts just about this whole situation, but
00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:02.539
When it works it is so effective, especially
00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:04.539
when you have the sweat equity behind it like
00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:08.700
you said like Been around for 15 years People
00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:10.799
know when you talk it's not bullshit, especially
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.900
if you put something behind your name It's I
00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:16.740
don't know there and there's even agencies out
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:19.339
there that message me I'm sure message you that
00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:21.319
are like let me help grow your LinkedIn presence
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.259
We can help write these posts for you and all
00:26:23.259 --> 00:26:25.609
this kind of stuff and I don't know like From
00:26:25.609 --> 00:26:27.910
my side of the coin, I think the podcast is super
00:26:27.910 --> 00:26:29.130
interesting because I like talking to really
00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:30.869
fun people and having good conversations and
00:26:30.869 --> 00:26:35.289
all that. Um, selfishly, it's also a form of
00:26:35.289 --> 00:26:38.009
job security, you know, of like being out in
00:26:38.009 --> 00:26:42.650
front, making sure that us as a company, we can
00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:44.869
voice that we do know the best people in the
00:26:44.869 --> 00:26:46.430
world, but also for me personally, to have these
00:26:46.430 --> 00:26:48.730
conversations. I don't know, like there's a lot
00:26:48.730 --> 00:26:52.410
that goes into it for me. Um, we're not selling
00:26:52.410 --> 00:26:56.410
anything yet, but you know, when. These conversations
00:26:56.410 --> 00:26:59.130
happen and there is good nuggets of info People
00:26:59.130 --> 00:27:00.950
do buy in like I've had a couple people message
00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:02.690
me about stuff in the past from a couple of the
00:27:02.690 --> 00:27:04.849
episodes and introed that person to the other
00:27:04.849 --> 00:27:07.890
person so Yeah, I don't know. It's long known
00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:09.630
the way of not even really saying anything, but
00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:13.490
just long thoughts No, no, I'll pull that down
00:27:13.490 --> 00:27:15.609
on that like think about our geek outs or even
00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:17.289
an affiliate worlds or affiliates some of the
00:27:17.289 --> 00:27:21.769
West's and stuff This is less of a Being public
00:27:21.769 --> 00:27:23.849
talking to many people getting impressions on
00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:27.220
digital But even if the curated room that you
00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:30.019
were responsible for or had contribution into
00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.440
it as a sponsor, as like a content contributor,
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:38.720
as an invitee, as an invite or the benefit of
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.380
doing that so high. And you basically take that
00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:44.440
same exact mentality of if I can curate the people
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:46.539
that I would want to be in a room with, but just
00:27:46.539 --> 00:27:48.440
kind of expand it a little bit to people online.
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.210
It's not as important of. of how much you're
00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:54.829
saying. It is important to make sure of how much
00:27:54.829 --> 00:27:57.890
you're saying quantity with the level of incredibleness
00:27:57.890 --> 00:28:01.369
on quality side, but it's so subjective because
00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:03.549
you'll say messages over and over and over. This
00:28:03.549 --> 00:28:06.170
is like, I'll revisit stuff that I've done weeks
00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:08.769
and weeks ago or months back. I'm like, that's
00:28:08.769 --> 00:28:10.849
actually still relevant. Let's update that and
00:28:10.849 --> 00:28:13.930
redo it. And you just rerun the same exact thing,
00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:16.309
ultra different to the moment you're in. And
00:28:16.309 --> 00:28:19.700
it works just as well. And I think the The narrative
00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:21.799
is it's a consistency thing and it's a muscle
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:24.240
that people don't have. Here's my routine. So
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:26.819
like I have three copywriters underneath Nick.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:29.720
They are in charge of like tactical execution
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.460
day to day. And we have two calls a week that
00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.559
are an hour and a half each. So it's about three
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.019
hours total committed to downloading comments
00:28:37.019 --> 00:28:39.500
and questions. Their role is to prompt me with
00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:41.180
things based upon I've already been creating,
00:28:41.299 --> 00:28:43.660
as well as other similar people that I have affinity
00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:46.119
towards. And then from the affinity, it goes
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:48.750
towards Is this how long is this post? Where
00:28:48.750 --> 00:28:50.789
is this living? Is this a video? Is this a script?
00:28:50.930 --> 00:28:53.670
Is this a thread? Is this what have it? And like
00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:56.250
those technical execution elements, I don't need
00:28:56.250 --> 00:29:00.150
to own, but the message, the content has to be
00:29:00.150 --> 00:29:03.450
mine with the initial creative, get it flushed
00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:06.130
out with team, and then the QC before it goes
00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:08.930
live. That's how I like to do mine. Yeah. I feel
00:29:08.930 --> 00:29:10.269
like a lot of people are in the same boat. So
00:29:10.269 --> 00:29:12.930
how did you find, like, how did you go from realizing
00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:16.140
I need an actual team rather than me just doing
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.240
this myself. There was a moment in time where
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.599
he said, okay, this is what I need now. Volume.
00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:25.880
So when I realized - So this happened on Structure,
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.339
this happened at Geek Out, and this happened
00:29:27.339 --> 00:29:29.519
a little bit at Constant, but not as much recently.
00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:31.779
And then it really happened at Breeze. Dude,
00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:35.579
Breeze, bro, we were able to fill between myself,
00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:38.279
Aaron, and a couple of other people on the team
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:42.200
of introductions, like a five to $6 million friends
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:47.680
and family off tweets. But that's crazy. This
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.819
five, six million off of like, hey, this is what
00:29:49.819 --> 00:29:51.579
we're doing. Like that's crazy. That's actually
00:29:51.579 --> 00:29:54.579
crazy. Employer, like we found a great, great
00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:56.079
talent through talking about it and yapping.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.200
So I was like, it's working in many areas I did
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.099
not anticipate. How do I do more of it? And so
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:05.200
that volume was, I kind of took the risk and
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.480
it took a long time to build these guys for two
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:09.339
and a half years now. And so it takes a long
00:30:09.339 --> 00:30:11.390
time for the voice to be understood. and then
00:30:11.390 --> 00:30:13.349
you miss. You're like, well, I don't know why
00:30:13.349 --> 00:30:14.970
I would ever approve this or allow this to go
00:30:14.970 --> 00:30:16.509
through, but you just kind of prove it or go
00:30:16.509 --> 00:30:19.089
through it in the process really quickly. This
00:30:19.089 --> 00:30:22.910
is and will be a thing that everybody has to
00:30:22.910 --> 00:30:26.250
have in the future because the volume of AI output,
00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:29.289
you think about trends. We briefly talked about
00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:30.950
what's going to happen in 2026. I think this
00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:33.329
is going to be a huge shift. I've been a part
00:30:33.329 --> 00:30:38.150
of major SaaS launches or tools like Icon that
00:30:38.150 --> 00:30:41.859
people hated and did not like. Arc ads, one we
00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:45.559
just recently did. The Nano Banana conversation
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.059
around how much output of creative can be done.
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.640
We ourselves offer AI UGC. We're already in this
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.200
area. And I think there's going to be such a
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:58.420
hard rejection of going, fuck you, don't show
00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:00.579
me AI. What is this? And people just go like,
00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:02.160
this is disgusting. I don't want to deal with
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.700
this. I think that's going to be a hard, hard
00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.180
revert away because even to this on LinkedIn
00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:11.099
and on Twitter. It's still within the professional
00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:12.940
space that people are talking about the AI usage.
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:18.140
Yes GPT is large and the the B2C market but as
00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:20.160
using anthropic starting to grow perplexity growing
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.339
in the B2B market the people really talking about
00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:26.660
usage of this on a daily is us is the people
00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:29.779
in tech or in digital marketing the mass market
00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:32.180
mass public is not thinking about how they're
00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:35.880
gonna like Maximize my time working at McDonald's
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:42.140
with GPT Yeah. Arc ads has been so much better.
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:44.539
I remember I was in a conversation when I first
00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:48.339
started and seeing that compared to now it's,
00:31:48.339 --> 00:31:50.720
uh, it's wild. And I have this weird theory too,
00:31:51.859 --> 00:31:54.819
that it's not really on the same lines as you,
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:58.299
but I have a feeling like people almost lean
00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:00.380
in when they know it's AI because they might
00:32:00.380 --> 00:32:02.559
be sick of the influencer marketing and people
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.740
like pushing these products on them and like
00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:08.119
the really I don't know, overdone videos and
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:10.019
stuff. And maybe there's like this small thing
00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:13.119
in the back head that they can kind of, I mean,
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:14.700
we can recognize it because we're in marketing
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:16.480
and tech and we can see like, yeah, that's not
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.660
a real person. Like I see within five seconds,
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:23.200
but some people, I don't know. I, I like the
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.240
psychology of it just tells me that they're actually
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.140
into it, not being real. And it might actually
00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:31.279
make them more comfortable. It's like on the
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.180
AI voice conversation, I help a company called
00:32:34.180 --> 00:32:38.619
Vita. Who does AI voice and texts and they do
00:32:38.619 --> 00:32:40.759
super well on the Medicare side, have answering
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:44.119
service forwarded along. And one of their clients
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:47.819
was saying, we gave the AI a persona. We tell
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:51.759
it's AI in the beginning and people are sharing
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.220
health information that they are not sharing
00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:57.119
with real people. You know, they know it's just
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.480
a computer and they know they're not going to
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.279
be judged if they're saying I'm a hundred pounds
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.200
overweight. Like I have this weird rash on my
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.180
underwear or something crazy. Like. and they
00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:07.420
know that it's because it's AI, they're opening
00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:12.000
up more. Whoa. So I don't know. I think there's
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.380
like this thing going on as well. Dude, okay.
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.779
Dude, it's almost like the internet. It's funny
00:33:17.779 --> 00:33:20.119
because today, literally I logged into it this
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:24.579
morning, apparently Cathy Wood like re -shared
00:33:24.579 --> 00:33:28.779
AI slop and she ended up having to delete it.
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.940
I had not been able to find it, but I know someone
00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:33.359
took some screenshots of this, but she got roasted
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:37.569
alive. Kathy, you do know this is AI slop and
00:33:37.569 --> 00:33:39.869
the whole thread was going off of her. And this
00:33:39.869 --> 00:33:42.289
is an argument. This is one of the women and
00:33:42.289 --> 00:33:44.109
just like brother, not just women, but like one
00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:46.869
of these individuals that are so forefront of
00:33:46.869 --> 00:33:49.630
tech because of how she portfolio is split that
00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:52.309
I was shook. And she's not that much older than
00:33:52.309 --> 00:33:54.029
everybody and she should be aware of what the
00:33:54.029 --> 00:33:56.269
heck's going on. But even to like you mentioned,
00:33:56.950 --> 00:34:00.289
I find out that the relationship building from
00:34:00.289 --> 00:34:04.190
the AI side. I do more back and forth with GPT,
00:34:04.410 --> 00:34:06.569
right now I'm spending a lot in Claude because
00:34:06.569 --> 00:34:09.750
I can get the speed or I can get them to feed
00:34:09.750 --> 00:34:11.809
me the information that I want because it works
00:34:11.809 --> 00:34:14.389
best for my thinking. But I'm preferring working
00:34:14.389 --> 00:34:17.170
with this than real humans because despite me
00:34:17.170 --> 00:34:21.250
telling the real humans, can you feed me the
00:34:21.250 --> 00:34:22.809
information back to me this way because it's
00:34:22.809 --> 00:34:25.250
the fastest for me to give you information back
00:34:25.250 --> 00:34:27.760
to you to make sure you do your job better. I'm
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.039
finding it quicker to go operate this way. And
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.719
is it possible to have an agentic structure and
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:34.739
people that are just executing for you? Yeah,
00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:37.599
I think we'll see some multimillion dollar businesses
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:41.079
and brands build off of like agentic flows. It's
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:44.420
inevitable. But is it fulfilling? I think that's
00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:47.579
the next question of, yes, I think it can be
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:49.539
done. Yes, I think there's going to be a younger
00:34:49.539 --> 00:34:53.730
population, whether it's the... the young hustlers
00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:55.469
in emerging markets, they're watching all of
00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:57.010
us on YouTube. They're trying to figure out what's
00:34:57.010 --> 00:35:00.309
happening and they can revert it their own way.
00:35:00.849 --> 00:35:02.570
Or there's the new generation that they're like,
00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:04.449
all they know are screens and all they're going
00:35:04.449 --> 00:35:06.789
to know is the gentics workflow that it's just
00:35:06.789 --> 00:35:09.150
the next thing. I don't know. Talk about how
00:35:09.150 --> 00:35:13.389
do you like, you're a young child. I have a very
00:35:13.389 --> 00:35:16.630
young boy as well. I don't know what he's doing.
00:35:16.750 --> 00:35:18.489
I don't know if he's going to college. I don't
00:35:18.489 --> 00:35:22.130
know if he's going to high school, dude. Yeah.
00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:24.429
I've told my wife that he's not, I don't think
00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:26.889
he is. I think that, I mean, did you see the
00:35:26.889 --> 00:35:29.309
recent report that came out where it was like,
00:35:29.309 --> 00:35:32.510
um, job seekers now, a high school degree and
00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:36.030
a college degree have the same chance at, uh,
00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:39.269
applying and getting the job. So there's this,
00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:41.750
there's a big study done and they're basically
00:35:41.750 --> 00:35:43.090
saying like, well, why does a college degree
00:35:43.090 --> 00:35:45.610
matter anymore? And it's already, you know, it's
00:35:45.610 --> 00:35:47.989
already kind of that way. So just to Matt, I
00:35:47.989 --> 00:35:51.610
mean, dude, your kids can have a phone when they're.
00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:54.449
Eight ten years old now probably and they're
00:35:54.449 --> 00:35:57.090
gonna be talking to this thing and they're gonna
00:35:57.090 --> 00:35:59.230
be learning information at ten times the speed
00:35:59.230 --> 00:36:01.469
that we did and they're gonna be able to and
00:36:01.469 --> 00:36:03.610
one of the cooler things I I think is I have
00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:05.750
a little self -hosted server at home and you
00:36:05.750 --> 00:36:08.449
can self -host your own AI and That way you're
00:36:08.449 --> 00:36:11.110
not like sharing it with the big greedy corporations
00:36:11.110 --> 00:36:13.429
and all that stuff But I'm gonna ask you more.
00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:14.750
I'm gonna ask you more about that offline. That's
00:36:14.750 --> 00:36:17.489
cool. Yeah Yeah, and but one of the coolest things
00:36:17.489 --> 00:36:19.840
you can do is when you have children You can
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:21.679
kind of like give it guardrails and you can make
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.099
sure it stays in line with You don't want to
00:36:26.099 --> 00:36:27.960
search parameters. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, like
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.300
yeah, yeah brand safety in our world like these
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.099
parameters that allow it your kid just still
00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:35.820
explore but also stay within these guardrails
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:40.579
and I don't know dude, like I I also think about
00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:44.219
this way you me like we know all these people
00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:46.539
in this space and and marketing and investing
00:36:46.539 --> 00:36:49.110
and you know You name it our friends have jobs
00:36:49.110 --> 00:36:51.010
and all these different industries Who's to say
00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:54.170
like your kids didn't grow up and be 16 and you're
00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:56.449
gonna have a buddy and he's interested in I don't
00:36:56.449 --> 00:36:58.650
even know finance or music and you have a buddy
00:36:58.650 --> 00:37:02.250
that's high up at Live Nation or JP Morgan and
00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:06.090
you're like, hey Jason My son he's really interested
00:37:06.090 --> 00:37:07.349
in this he's taking him under the wing for the
00:37:07.349 --> 00:37:09.269
summer and then he's got a job and then after
00:37:09.269 --> 00:37:11.469
that He's got a full -time job at like 16. I
00:37:11.469 --> 00:37:13.389
think that's the way it's gonna go personally,
00:37:13.510 --> 00:37:17.429
but I also I also love that too because it's
00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:21.739
it almost pulls you fully back towards formanship
00:37:21.739 --> 00:37:25.260
or my dad was blue collar, my mom is blue collar,
00:37:25.659 --> 00:37:32.539
and it's pure mentorship. And I find the value.
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:38.699
So guys, people in our age have truly won or
00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:40.159
they're currently winning and they're happy to
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:42.079
fulfill it and they've done the work and understood
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.019
the contextual information. It's really hard
00:37:45.019 --> 00:37:48.269
to get that very fast. So I think the the benefit
00:37:48.269 --> 00:37:51.090
of consulting or the benefit of someone that's
00:37:51.090 --> 00:37:52.929
like been there, kind of done that, that can
00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:55.010
give you real time information that's actually,
00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:58.010
it's actually rooted in execution that's already
00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:00.349
happened. And then your ability to be like, I
00:38:00.349 --> 00:38:03.250
can kind of speed through that learning or apply
00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:05.769
that context to how I'm doing my day to day.
00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:12.090
You need this OG realness as well as this new,
00:38:12.090 --> 00:38:15.389
new gen. young buck energy of like, ah, I can
00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:17.630
figure this out very, very fast. And it's like
00:38:17.630 --> 00:38:20.110
a nice relationship across the two. And I think
00:38:20.110 --> 00:38:21.690
that's why the next gen is going to have such
00:38:21.690 --> 00:38:24.070
a better chance of what's going, what they want
00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:26.630
to do. Like, hopefully they can be more because
00:38:26.630 --> 00:38:28.550
sometimes people just choose to go to college.
00:38:28.710 --> 00:38:30.190
I might've been the same way. You brought the
00:38:30.190 --> 00:38:31.650
same thing. I was like, I didn't really have
00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:33.650
another option. I could have went professional.
00:38:33.710 --> 00:38:35.170
We did go professional eventually, but I needed
00:38:35.170 --> 00:38:37.309
that stepping stone to get there. And so that
00:38:37.309 --> 00:38:40.050
to me is the kids might find their interest quicker
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:42.409
because they're going to be fed the things that
00:38:42.329 --> 00:38:45.170
us, ultimately the father, mother, household,
00:38:45.389 --> 00:38:47.110
and eventually them are going to self -select
00:38:47.110 --> 00:38:50.090
them too. So their path choice could be quicker,
00:38:50.110 --> 00:38:51.409
which would be beautiful. Because what if you
00:38:51.409 --> 00:38:54.969
knew what you wanted already at 15, 16, 17? Dude,
00:38:55.369 --> 00:38:58.289
you don't got to waste 20 to 30 to figure it
00:38:58.289 --> 00:39:02.090
out. I know. The gap year no longer exists. I
00:39:02.090 --> 00:39:04.710
went to college for lacrosse because I knew I
00:39:04.710 --> 00:39:05.989
wasn't going to be able to get into college if
00:39:05.989 --> 00:39:08.130
I didn't play a sport. So I had to go. Fair.
00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:13.210
And back then, you know, back then, shit. Sound
00:39:13.210 --> 00:39:14.889
too old, but like you need a college degree to
00:39:14.889 --> 00:39:16.389
get a job. And I went to go to New York and I
00:39:16.389 --> 00:39:19.030
went to work in New York. Um, but I just think
00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:22.570
about, I completely agree because in New York,
00:39:22.570 --> 00:39:25.570
I went to St. John's Catholic university. I'm
00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:28.690
sitting there taking three theology courses and
00:39:28.690 --> 00:39:32.449
getting taught economics by a guy that can't
00:39:32.449 --> 00:39:34.769
communicate well. And like, and you just sit
00:39:34.769 --> 00:39:36.269
there for four years and you're like, okay, I
00:39:36.269 --> 00:39:38.489
guess I'm in marketing and I guess like, that's
00:39:38.489 --> 00:39:41.809
what I'm going to do. You know, so. Yeah, I don't
00:39:41.809 --> 00:39:46.289
know. It's going to be a trip. I don't even want
00:39:46.289 --> 00:39:48.630
to take it here, but I might. St. John's, I finished
00:39:48.630 --> 00:39:52.329
at SLU, St. Louis University. So I finished in
00:39:52.329 --> 00:39:55.269
a Jesuit upbringing too. It was always private,
00:39:55.409 --> 00:39:57.929
public, and they'll finish it private. Even to
00:39:57.929 --> 00:40:00.829
this day, it was like our tie, like my wife or
00:40:00.829 --> 00:40:03.050
my son, I'm a man of faith that believe in faith,
00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:05.110
but I'm not like a day -to -day practice or a
00:40:05.110 --> 00:40:08.750
church on Sundays kind of guy. consider like,
00:40:08.869 --> 00:40:10.949
what does he do? Like, do we, do we bring that
00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:13.829
into the household? Do we tell them that we do
00:40:13.829 --> 00:40:17.150
have belief or movement? Um, that's a, that's
00:40:17.150 --> 00:40:20.010
a very interesting topic I'm going through. I
00:40:20.010 --> 00:40:23.610
mean, did you grow up going to church? Oh yeah.
00:40:23.769 --> 00:40:27.429
Catholic strict Catholic. Same, same here. Um,
00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:30.369
God, this, this conversation go a crazy way right
00:40:30.369 --> 00:40:34.349
now. Um, but that, yeah, growing up like that
00:40:34.349 --> 00:40:37.760
was nuts and the. Like not having a choice, you
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:40.440
know, I remember yeah because I played football
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.420
for the church too And you had to go until eighth
00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:46.599
guy went to CCD because I went to public school
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:49.719
But I but I went to church and I just remember
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:54.840
Now I'm more interested in it because I can like
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:56.960
step back and kind of understand the teachings
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:00.480
and the stories and Why things are being said
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:02.199
certain way, but back then I remember I would
00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:05.170
be like looking at my uncle during one of the
00:41:05.170 --> 00:41:06.730
prayers and he would just have his thumbs in
00:41:06.730 --> 00:41:08.289
his eye saying a prayer and I would just like
00:41:08.289 --> 00:41:09.829
do the same thing. I didn't know what was going
00:41:09.829 --> 00:41:12.530
on. And then you talk about confession and the
00:41:12.530 --> 00:41:18.530
guilt laden kind of thing that happens in the,
00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:20.289
in the Catholic church. It's, it's really interesting.
00:41:20.309 --> 00:41:23.130
And again, I think that it's almost, if I didn't
00:41:23.130 --> 00:41:26.110
have that, I don't know if I would still operate
00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:29.409
the same way today. So I look at it and I'm like,
00:41:30.349 --> 00:41:33.449
man, Kind of glad it happened, but what a weird
00:41:33.449 --> 00:41:37.190
way to experience you're like eight to 16 years
00:41:37.190 --> 00:41:42.610
old. Um, yes. Yes, dude, not, I do not. And then
00:41:42.610 --> 00:41:44.550
even, even expand the more. So we like, there's
00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:47.170
like the discipline of execution of sport, and
00:41:47.170 --> 00:41:50.230
then there's a discipline execution of church
00:41:50.230 --> 00:41:55.190
or just belief. Um, and then, then you have the,
00:41:55.190 --> 00:42:00.349
the dick, uh, the, the. impact the house or your
00:42:00.349 --> 00:42:02.789
immediate family has on you. And so I'm thinking
00:42:02.789 --> 00:42:06.090
about all these like structures of how I believe
00:42:06.090 --> 00:42:09.329
I would want to be a father while how I want
00:42:09.329 --> 00:42:11.429
to be a man and then how I want to be a man in
00:42:11.429 --> 00:42:13.869
business. It's how I want to be a husband. It
00:42:13.869 --> 00:42:15.710
has been the craziest. I think this might have
00:42:15.710 --> 00:42:17.409
been this specific year because of all the change
00:42:17.409 --> 00:42:19.869
and challenges I've gone through, but I've actually
00:42:19.869 --> 00:42:22.329
just looked at how do I want to approach these?
00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:24.250
What do I believe in? Do I not believe in this
00:42:24.250 --> 00:42:26.519
anymore? And I think you have to kind of do a
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:27.960
self audit across the board, especially when
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:29.780
you start bringing in a little dude in your life,
00:42:29.980 --> 00:42:33.000
because you're going, oh shit, he has to be led
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.019
versus like if you had it, if I had a daughter,
00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:37.199
maybe my viewpoint would have been more of she
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:38.880
needs to be loved and like whatever she needs
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:40.920
to do, she only should feel loved. But then with
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:43.340
him, even at 20 months, he's we were already
00:42:43.340 --> 00:42:45.940
challenging each other. Like he's already showing
00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:47.460
these signs like you're not going to hit this
00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:49.980
just yet, but you will. You'll still be a moment,
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:52.980
literal, a literal moment where he like gets
00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:56.989
you, he like look at you and you go, Oh, you
00:42:56.989 --> 00:43:02.170
know what you're doing. You know me and our relationship
00:43:02.170 --> 00:43:04.489
is this now. Like you see this thing, it hits
00:43:04.489 --> 00:43:08.889
you, it's so heavy. And you go, here we go. And
00:43:08.889 --> 00:43:11.050
then you're like, dad's in, like you're in with
00:43:11.050 --> 00:43:12.869
the dad. Like you're like, this is the role I
00:43:12.869 --> 00:43:15.110
have to do for him. These are things that we're
00:43:15.110 --> 00:43:18.070
going to be intrusing. How am I agreeing? Like
00:43:18.070 --> 00:43:20.309
we have one, and this is this crazy turn of events,
00:43:20.570 --> 00:43:24.239
this fucking conversation with you. I'm naming
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:26.800
this like a philosopher's stone. I don't even
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.179
know. Something about you was it. It's not even
00:43:28.179 --> 00:43:30.920
marking. Okay. So we go into, I mean, it comes
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.099
back to marketing because I'm trying to indoctrinate
00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:37.739
him in a way where it's for what we believe is
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:39.659
to be the best based upon our experience of growth.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:43.219
And I'm trying to market a really incredible
00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:47.119
life, hopefully. So do we have a down to thought?
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:51.000
When one of us leaves or comes home, we over
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:55.599
exaggerate. the excitement and the love for our
00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:01.000
partner. Unless it's nighttime when someone comes
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.699
back from the gym or pickle bar or something
00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:05.019
like that and they're already asleep, then we
00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:07.260
don't do it there. But when daddy's leaving,
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.019
daddy's going to work or mommy's going, she's
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:13.199
going to friend, they will be back over exaggeration
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.980
because I want that feeling of, I see them leave,
00:44:16.099 --> 00:44:17.980
I'm okay, I'm in this house, I'm with my other
00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:20.650
person. It works with grandma and grandparents.
00:44:20.889 --> 00:44:22.769
We make sure that that handoff is big. And then
00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:24.789
anytime one of us comes home, we make sure it's
00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:27.329
like a family hug and kiss and greet. And it's
00:44:27.329 --> 00:44:30.550
been very interesting to see knowing that he
00:44:30.550 --> 00:44:32.889
sees us interact with each other. And it's very
00:44:32.889 --> 00:44:34.769
hard, but you have to be intentional about it.
00:44:35.030 --> 00:44:37.730
Yeah. My wife's a therapist and she's a couples
00:44:37.730 --> 00:44:42.889
therapist and a lot of conversations about children
00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:46.420
and relationships. It's awesome to be married
00:44:46.420 --> 00:44:49.719
to a therapist, but it's also really tough Yeah,
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:52.900
but the the the way we talk about modeling behaviors
00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:56.980
to to him to our son it's still early for but
00:44:56.980 --> 00:44:59.719
even still like thinking about it and just like
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:03.059
you said like how do we want to be perceived
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:05.820
in our relationship and how do we want to be
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:09.280
perceived when we're stressed or like handling
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.679
uncomfortable conversations or the dog threw
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.900
up on the rug. Like, how do we want to, I don't
00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:18.139
know, like manage that emotional spectrum of
00:45:18.139 --> 00:45:21.780
things for, for your kid. Um, so a hundred percent,
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:23.000
we're already thinking about it. I mean, good
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:26.039
thing for us, we do the, the greeting and the,
00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:28.920
um, goodbyes with our dog. I've been practicing
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:30.460
that for four years, so I'm just going to roll
00:45:30.460 --> 00:45:34.699
it into the kid. So I appreciate it. I love that
00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:38.179
dude. Hell yeah. Well, dude, we've been talking
00:45:38.179 --> 00:45:42.099
for a while. I know you've had a very eventful
00:45:42.099 --> 00:45:47.920
day and a couple of busy afternoon. Um, so. I
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:49.579
mean, we can do this again at any point, but
00:45:49.579 --> 00:45:50.940
anything else you want to leave people with,
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.860
I thought it was awesome conversation. Very unique
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:55.699
one. Um, crazy conversation. I super appreciate
00:45:55.699 --> 00:45:58.519
being here. I mean, it's awesome. I'm still,
00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:00.739
I'm super optimistic. I think 20, I think 2025
00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:03.630
was a really. I have a lot of, it's weird, I
00:46:03.630 --> 00:46:05.090
have a lot of friends that did really well, I
00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:06.510
have a lot of friends that did not do well, and
00:46:06.510 --> 00:46:07.869
I have a lot of friends that are like, I can't
00:46:07.869 --> 00:46:10.949
wait for 2026. And I kind of find myself in between.
00:46:11.090 --> 00:46:13.389
Like I think parts of my life were incredible,
00:46:13.590 --> 00:46:15.409
parts of my life were very hopeful of what's
00:46:15.409 --> 00:46:16.989
going to happen, and the parts of my life were
00:46:16.989 --> 00:46:19.289
going like, I'm glad that happened and it's behind
00:46:19.289 --> 00:46:23.070
us. And so I think based upon like just an anecdotal
00:46:23.070 --> 00:46:25.190
gut check of my immediate circle, I feel like
00:46:25.190 --> 00:46:27.110
maybe a lot of people feel and fall in that way.
00:46:27.429 --> 00:46:30.090
But the overall theme and feeling is still optimism
00:46:30.090 --> 00:46:34.039
for 2026. And that's cool. Sometimes it couldn't
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:36.619
have been that way. It could have been, oh, man,
00:46:36.619 --> 00:46:38.780
it's really going to be tough. Another one, I
00:46:38.780 --> 00:46:41.139
don't find that. I don't feel that. And I want
00:46:41.139 --> 00:46:43.099
to leave that with people too. And I hope you
00:46:43.099 --> 00:46:45.579
feel the same. Yeah. I mean, it has been a tough
00:46:45.579 --> 00:46:49.860
year for our business and so many things happening.
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.900
But I look at next year and going through all
00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:57.119
of this 2026 planning at work and just thinking
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:59.639
about strategy and I don't even know just the
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:02.639
world in general. I do think we're in for, we're
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:04.760
in for a positive one. You know, I think things
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:06.940
are going to snap back a little bit and hopefully
00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:10.039
be a little bit, um, easier on people's minds
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:13.159
and wallets and all that kind of stuff. So I
00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:17.019
grew, um, but yeah, man, thank you again for
00:47:17.019 --> 00:47:20.880
spending. It was awesome. Have a great day guys.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:21.360
Yep.