Breaking Silence: Black Men And Therapy with Joseph Barksdale - Episode #99

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Welcome to the Peace and Prosperity Podcast, where we talk mental wellness, confidence, and real life tools to help high achievers thrive.
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I'm your host, Jason Phillips, licensed therapist, speaker, coach, and I'm glad you're here.
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Let's get into the episode.
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All right, Joseph, we've rolling.
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If you don't mind, you can state your name.
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So, Joseph, tell it.
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Who are you?
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Where are you from?
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My name is Joseph Barkstell.
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I am a native long-term resident of Detroit.
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We've been here my whole life, been in the profession, consultant, social work therapist for the past 30 to 40 years.
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So when you started, were were there any other black men, like what was what inspired you to get in the profession and then were there other people who look like people in the profession?
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Mostly at the time that I made a decision to get into the profession, there was very minimal of male people of color.
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What inspired me to get into therapy was relative to my background growing up in a divided household, domestic situation, living in an impoverished community and dealing with a lot of substance abuse and black-on-black crimes.
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I saw that men would go through these scenarios and situations, but really didn't have anybody to talk to.
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And at the time that I was growing up, when I experienced all of these issues of trauma, there was it was sort of like a sin, not to get religious, but so like a sin for black men to go into therapy.
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And I think that that in some way still exists, not in the magnitude today, but it still is preeminent.
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So you saw it growing up and now, you know, being we're both from Detroit.
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Some of the stuff that we saw back growing up, you know, even though we have a age gap, right, it was very normalized.
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As far as, and in my opinion, you know, if there was alcoholism, even domestic violence to a certain degree, you didn't think, okay, I need to go get some help.
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It's just I need to deal with this.
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Well, actually, Jay, there was no, there was so there was there wasn't a sense of let me go get help because when I was coming up, we was raised only to strong survived.
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So it was a source of sense of weakness.
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If you even needed to get mental health because you weren't strong enough, I was taught that a man doesn't cry.
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I was talked about when we I played sports and things of that nature, no pain, no game.
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So from a psychological perspective, it was seen as a sign of weakness for you to get help.
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Even though and at that time there was there wasn't black men, and there's still not a lot of black men that are in mental health therapy.
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It's it's definitely when you compare it to African-American women, there's a great distance between that.
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As a matter of fact, I've had people reach out and want uh wanted to utilize my services because they wanted their son to to talk to an African-American male because it wasn't a whole lot in in in the field and it's still not.
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Yeah, I remember so we met at Catholic Social Services back in 2011 and Elizabeth Gonzalez said, I got somebody that you need to meet.
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You you need to know this person.
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And I remember your queso was always full, you know, your door was always closed, long hours, but people really they respected you and they really loved working with you too.
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So what was that like?
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I mean, you were like the only until I got came along, the only black man in the building.
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I was.
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It was challenging, largely due to the fact that people couldn't understand a lot of what the challenges was for my case law was primarily African American, at risk adults coming out of the prison system.
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They really couldn't relate and identify with that.
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And I think in some in similar system, it's important to have a male talking to a male.
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But the fact of the matter is, is that I kind of look at this scenario situation as my opportunity to help others when I wasn't able to be helped when I was coming up.
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And so it's like a mission for me.
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I love the job that I do, I love the challenges.
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I have experienced a lot of the psychological trauma that a lot of these people have been through, but along with that, also walk through the process of healing and getting through that.
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So I'm able to connect or empathize a lot with the individuals that I come in contact with.
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However, some of them have made choices that led them to substance abuse, being incarcerated, so on and so forth, and I'm able to help them walk through that journey.
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I I'll say, you know, working at Catholic Social Services, you know, that was an eye-opener for me because I had worked at the VA and I was working at Angela Hospice, dealing with more grief and loss issues with at CSS, people would come in with substance use issues, they may be prostituting or they may have been pimps, they may be using, you know, using drugs, but they could also be on probation, domestic violence cases, and this could all be one person dealing with all of this.
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That was a heck of a lot.
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So how did you learn to navigate all of those different multitude of issues, be able to help them build the trust?
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Like what was that like?
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Challenging.
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You know, you you have to address the greatest need if the if if the sub if the substance abuse is not, if they're not in recovery or in a substance abuse treatment program, we can't do anything because that individual is still chasing that drug.
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If it's domestic violence, you know, one of the things that we had in addition was a resource.
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We did a battery battering intervention group at Catholic Social Services, which I could refer them to that.
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And as a matter of fact, I was one of the lead facilitators in that arena as well.
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So compartmentalizing, understanding what the greatest need was, what the individual's willing to seek help for, and how to go about and work with them in a collaborative effort to address the greatest need and how we want to move forward.
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They needed to buy into anything that I brought forward to them.
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If they don't buy in, I can't help them.
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They're not really addressing the causal effect of what their situation is.
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And so I worked with a client-centered approach, basically addressing those concerns and issues from their perspective and then empathizing and helping them walk through the change process.
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What do you see as like, what would you say are some of the barriers to black men seeking support?
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Trust.
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Period.
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Out the gate.
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Out the gate.
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Trust.
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You know, is they it still black men don't want to go to the medical profession, let alone if they don't want to go get the prostate exams and things of that nature.
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What do they want to do with being vulnerable with someone who has to, you know, address the secrets?
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In substance abuse, we talk about our secrets keep us sick.
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Well, a lot of men have been taught to bury painful emotions and not deal with that, but manifest themselves in in relationships in a negative f manner because their hurt their hurt and insecurity manifests itself with anger and other unhealthy outcomes because they're not processing that grief or those traumatic experiences in a healthy way.
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So you said trust, that's one of the biggest reasons why people all seek help.
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How do you help build that trust?
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Like what what do you do?
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Build a relationship.
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Not being non-judgmental, empathizing with where their journey is and trying to have a connection.
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I I think in any helping professional, if you don't establish good communication and trust, you you you can work on the core issues.
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The issues that they one of the things I always said, especially with substance abuse, substance abuse is not the issue.
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It is a symptom of an issue, and largely due to the fact that people have used substance abuse to cover up what they really need to deal with.
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And so they're not going to be vulnerable to you or share that if they don't, if they don't trust you.
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And and and being the fact that they have learned how to overlook or not address the issues because they're trying to protect their vulnerability, we have to get there.
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And they know that I'm the type of person that, and I tell them up front, I'm here to help you, but if we're not talking about the core issues, I can't help you.
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So putting them in uh did I cut you off?
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Putting them in a helping them get to a point where they realize either they're gonna buy into receiving the help, or maybe they need to find another avenue or venue to address those concerns.
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Without giving up by any client information, can you share an example of somebody who came in, they were struggling with a multitude of issues, but then they were able to work with you, build trust, and basal devil.
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Anybody stand up?
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Most people Most people that come in, you know, so when when we get to the when we get to the area, so first of all, when someone knocks on the door and says, hey, I need your services, that's an open gateway.
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So one thing that you need to know, not that you need to know, but one thing that I take in perspective that what did it take for them to come and ask for help?
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When when they do that, then I know that there's a portion of them that is ready to address some of the concerns, but how significant it gets is the relationship that you build with them.
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So we work with trust issues.
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You know, a lot more times than not, the individual will test you to see how concerned or how how important they are to you, and they will share and give information and build that trust in that in that arena.
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I'd like to think that this is not an arrogant statement, but I'd like to think I'm good at what I do, and I'm able to take nuggets of what they present and then have them go backwards to hit issues that align with that that they did not share.
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And they are more times amazed to say, How did you get there?
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I say, Well, you provided information, you know, so on and so forth.
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So Yeah, you're good at what you do.
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I mean, I've I've had some of your past clients because maybe you weren't taking them back or you your queso was full.
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And it's been a a vast different, like a different queso.
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I've seen young men that you've seen, I've seen women that you have counseled.
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Do you use different approaches, you know, based on gender, based on age?
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I'm I'm a realist in a sense.
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I think a lot of times we're, you know, in relationship building, people just need to feel that you're authentic.
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You know, for depending on the age group, for some women I've seen as somewhat as a father figure, but I don't let the boundaries blend with some men who never had a material adult man vested them.
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They look for symbolic male mentoring.
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I provide that, but not allow the roles to be blended to give them an opportunity to grow and process and to be a part of the change process.
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And Joseph, I love that.
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And also knowing you for like the past 15 years, I know you're a man of faith.
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So if necessary, you can bring faith into the session.
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I also remember outside of your sessions, y'all be laughing a whole lot.
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So him Yeah, go ahead.
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So humor is a strategy, you and you asked me earlier, my apologies.
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Humor is the strategy that I've always used to reduce the tension and frustration and to build rapport.
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So, you know, engaging them in into a process of being able to, you know, f laugh and and feel comfortable allows them to be more to build rapport and be able to share information that's pertinent to their development.
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And going back a little bit, you said it takes a lot for people to come in to see you, you know, just when they're not.
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I would I would think to see anybody.
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And when a person when a so i you had talked about black men.
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Right.
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I I think in general, when when, you know, who opens up the door and says, I need to go see a therapist, the issues have always been present, but they haven't been ready to come in and make that that leap of faith.
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So when they come to the door and they say, Hey, I need your help.
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Now I have, if if I can back up for a minute, when I was working with the domestic violence program, they're court ordered.
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So it's not like they knocked on the door to say, Hey, oh, I, you know, and it's a fit it's a 52-week program.
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When they come in every week, they see a person who's who's regimented, who's no nonsense, who's here to help them process and go through their journey.
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And so that's the important piece with that.
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And so when that happens, they get to build a relationship, whether they initially they don't like it, but they're getting to grow that this is the this person is is actually concerned about me and don't want me to re-offend or something to that nature.
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Well, with all of the the work that you do and you've been doing this for 30, 40 years, what do you do for your own mental health?
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How do you take care of yourself?
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I am a man of faith, so spiritu spirituality, I do that.
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I have, if things get too overwhelming, I I do have a personal therapist.
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And as a matter of fact, you can cut this out to take.
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We bar we borrow the services because not only is he is he my therapist, he uses me as his therapist, and we have had an existing relationship for I would say 25 years.
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So I don't, when I come to him, I don't have to beat around the bush.
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I can jump right into, he's someone who I trust, who has been through the storms with me.
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And I think it's healthy to, you know, what the work that we do is very mentally taxing.
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So knowing when to step back, when to take a break, as a matter of fact, going on a cruise.
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So very so.
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Yeah.
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Well, you you have to if if your mental health is not together, how are you gonna help somebody else?
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And my work doesn't just extend to, you know, there there mental health in the church is something that is is is has in the past not been addressed, but I've counseled pastors and and other individuals of faith to help them with their journey because it's a much needed It's much needed.
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So, Joseph, how important was it for you to have a black male therapist?
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Or was that important?
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It was uh well how'd you know he was black?
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It was important for me.
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But we were friends.
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We were friends first, but this person is younger than me, about five or six years.
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There are a lot of things that we connected with.
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We were both family men.
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We were matter of fact, we worked for the same substance abuse agency till he went and got his doctorates and but we kept, we we kept together, but he underst he he understands the plight and the journey that I went, largely due to the fact that he he was a person of color and went through the same thing.
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Gotcha.
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So there was a there was a connection and the the amount of people and the things that we worked on together is very prevalent.
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And I I'd like to say that he has been very inspirational and been a a blessing in my life as well.
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So I just want to check and make sure I don't miss any important questions.
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You've asked a lot.
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Can I get a sip of coffee?
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I see.
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Okay.
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So given, you know, your work in the field and your experience receiving therapy services, what advice would you give somebody who's on the fence and they're still like, I don't know if this is for me or if I can benefit?
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So I would I would tell that person to ask the question, how did they get to this point where they don't know?
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You know, the question is, is that when you look at where where you're at in your development in life, ask yourself, how do I how did I get here?
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And when you start going backwards to look at all the the emotional challenges, relationships, and things that have occurred to you, you know, it helps break that denial and help you say, hey, I need some help.
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Humbling yourself, having a sense of humility.
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What do you hope to see in the therapy field in the future for black men?
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I like to see them be more to to be involved more in in that therapeutic process because for me, my ministry or my my personal ministry and my vision was to work with men.
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And I always said, and this may be a subjective point of view, if I can change that man around, he can change his family around.
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I think that I think that families need a father and a mother.
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And more times than not, when you look at how an African-American male is is extracted from his family, nine times out of ten, that family is going down.
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So for to to meet them where they are to address the issues, how does it feel?
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Like one time when I was working in the Catholic Services, I saw three generations of the father, the son, the fa the grandfather, the father, and the son all have been in prison.
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And that's three generations of that.
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And I was instrumental in bringing them together.
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But the damage, you know, so this what I always saw was my dad committing crimes and going to the joint.
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I'm following in his footsteps.
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Someone has to break that cycle.
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The and that and that was a very difficult challenge because a lot of times you you have to stay grounded and understand.
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I'm saying for me, paraphrasing, that what why you're here and what your purpose is, and that's how I look at it.
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Because there may not be great rewards, or I may not see my reward immediately, but somewhere down the road, somebody will say, Yeah, Mr.
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Barksdale worked for me, Mr.
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Barksdale did that, Mr.
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Barksdale, you know.
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When the aha moment comes into fruition, I I'm comfortable to know that I've done the best job that I can in assisting and and helping that individual grow.
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Okay.
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Oh.
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Damn.
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Oh, it's I got a couple of things.
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And then we'll wrap up.
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Okay.
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Thank you.
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No, this is good.
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We're gonna we're gonna be mistaken on time.
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But because I I know your work at how and as a therapist, it's a lot it's mentally taxing.
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It can be emotionally taxing and physically taxing, because you you would commute to Ann Arbor from Detroit every day in the snow.
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And I remember because I didn't even know you at the time, but I was at that door to where we worked, and I would see the new car.
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And it would be out there all the time, and on the weekends.
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So, hey, what what kept you going and how did you avoid burnout?
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You know, Jason, I was talking to someone, and I I can't even believe that I made that trip for 12 years.
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And you I and I'm trying to figure who else I talk with.
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And this was recently, you you know, I was committed to the clientele that I was working with.
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Because eventually I left.
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I'm not gonna mention the agency, I left that agency because it was time for me to leave.
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We already mentioned it, but go ahead.
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Well, it was time for me to it was time I did mention it.
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But uh it was time for me to leave.
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And I can't believe I made it through like, you know, we got snow today, but you know, a 45-minute drive would turn into an hour and a half.
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I was there on time.
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I met my I I met my clients' needs, but I was committed to the population that I was working with because I felt I was making a difference.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:28.720
I mean, you were.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.880
I mean, that was a it was a tough population.
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.440
Uh that may be some that may I mean, that's basically what it was.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:46.640
I I love the work that I do, and I love working with the population that because matter of fact, a lot of people were apprehensive and then feel they needed a second chance.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:47.200
I did.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.720
You work with some of the toughest populations too, I just want to add.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:55.279
You work with substance abuse, domestic violence.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.680
Did you work with sexual assault too?
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:00.000
That's tough.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.119
Yeah.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:01.920
I did.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.720
Any any last words, Joseph?
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.640
If your family's watching this, what do you want them to uh to know?
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.359
That I did the best job that I could.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:21.039
My family knows that I'm a person who is committed to helping people get through adversity.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:33.759
And so, you know, I've always worked with the underserved, I've always worked with it's a it's a it's amazing what, and you know, you probably don't want this on here, but I'm gonna throw it on here.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:42.000
God allowed me, so in order to have a test, in order to have a testimony, you have to have a test.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:24:01.119
And all that I went through growing up, all the adversity, all the impoverishment, all the things that I went through, the the biggest change for me, and you and I have this in, and I was scheduled, my high my high school that I was scheduled to go to was Northeastern or Murray Wright.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:09.359
A change happened to me because I was born and raised in the in the Brewster Projects, but the change happened when I went to Cas Tech.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:33.039
When I went to Cas Tech, I saw people of different people of color from from Southfield and from other affluent areas come and and I and I met relationships and friends to this day that as a matter of fact, my fifty the cruise I'm going on is my 50th anniversary from Castech.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:43.359
And these and they're people that I'm still friends with today that changed my life and and gave me a vision of hope to say you can do this.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.839
So I I got a I got we still got five of us anyway, Joseph.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:56.319
You got five We started off jumping into therapy, but people some people may not know what the Brewster projects mean.
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:02.000
So like what did you what did you go through to get to where you are today?
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:12.000
So the Brewster's, so most housing, if Cabrini Green in Chicago and most housing complexes have the same general makeup.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:19.440
A lot of there there's a lot of the in in the projects, it's a community with it within itself.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:24.240
A lot of crime, not the best educational system.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:33.599
When I would go to junior high school, some of the people who have committed crimes would come back in the classroom and they would intimidate the teachers.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:42.400
I remember there's several times I've saw uh people get shot, not like on TV, but shot out in public.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:50.000
Police recall never came, brains, the remnants of brain matter on the on the on the uh ground.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.599
You know, I remember running home from school every day.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.319
I should have been a great phenomenal athlete.
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:01.440
But, you know, we survived through all of that.
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:16.559
When I when I like I said, a change happened to me when I when I went to CAS because I I met people that didn't that lived outside of where was was net was a natural commune for me.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.079
So there was always a vision that one day I'm gonna leave here.
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.799
Not too many people leave that environment either.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:35.519
It's ironic that when I started working for Hermic Keith for substance abuse, a lot of the uh a good number of people from the projects that were selling drugs, involved with drugs, came through that program.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:39.359
Guess who they had who they the person they chased?
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.599
Guess who they came through the drug treatment clinic to?
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.599
And you know, drugs does a damage when you when you are using that for an extended period of time.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:56.480
But I was I was thankful that I didn't get caught up in drugs or education was important to me.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:09.200
And, you know, there were, again, like I said, the our relationship with the police community was non-existent because it took them forever and a day to come down and address the situation that was in the project.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:12.079
So we can thank you.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.839
Thanks for tuning in to the Peace and Prosperity Podcast.
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:27.519
If today's episode brought you clarity, encouragement, or even a moment of calm, share it with someone who needs to hear it too.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.279
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00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.119
And remember, you don't have to do it all alone.
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:42.480
If you're navigating stress, burnout, or just need a space to reset, I'm here to support you.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:49.119
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00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:55.759
Until next time, protect your peace, pursue your purpose, and keep showing up for you.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:57.359
Be blessed.