470 [Thursday Refresh] Leading Change: How Leaders Create Lasting Transformation with John Kotter

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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to
Partnering Leadership, a top
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global leadership podcast for
purpose-driven leaders with a
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growth mindset, seeking to learn
from the leadership journey of
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change makers and business
insights from leading global
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thinkers.
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For additional leadership
insights and bonus content,
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visit us at
partneringleadership.com.
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Now here's your host, Mahan
Tavakouli.
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SPEAKER_02: Professor John
Cotter, welcome to Partnering
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Leadership.
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I am thrilled to have you in
this conversation with me.
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Well, I'm thrilled to meet you.
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Professor Cotter, for more than
a quarter century, more than
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half of my life, you have been a
leading thinker on change.
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I remember studying you and
studying your work back in
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business school.
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And you have written 21 books,
two fables.
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I think I've read all of the
books and fables and love them.
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We'll spend most of this time
talking about your latest book,
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How Organizations Achieve Hard
to Imagine Results in Uncertain
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and Volatile Times.
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It is an absolute thrill and
honor because you were talking
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about change when most people
didn't expect the pace of change
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to be where it is right now.
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SPEAKER_01: Without question.
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And again, it was found through
just the research studies that I
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did.
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I've always been interested in
performance.
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That's where it started.
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Why do some organizations
outperform others?
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My doctoral thesis was actually
on big city mayors during the
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1960s.
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It wasn't on businesses, even
though it was done at Harbor
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Fist School.
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And one of the most striking
outcomes of that work was
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finally recognizing that no
matter how you measure end
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results of how well those 20
mayors did in their jobs on the
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economy of the city, on their
own re-election, public health,
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etc.
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The distance between the top
three mayors in terms of results
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and the bottom three was nothing
less than galactic.
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It was hard to believe.
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And I think that got me even
more interested in trying to
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understand why some people ended
up performing so poorly, but
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even more interested in how it
was possible to produce results
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which the average,
well-educated, thoughtful,
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intelligent observer would say
are highly unlikely, if not just
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impossible.
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And those stories that I've been
studying for 40 years led me to
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the topic of change.
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Because even back in the 1970s
and early 1980s, the basic
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change was picking up.
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You were seeing more strategic
initiatives inside of companies,
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not just one a decade.
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And change took me to the topic
of leadership because
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leadership, we decided was not
management, the two different
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things, both serving very, very
important functions.
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But leadership is very much
associated with change,
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innovation, and leaps forward.
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And so that's become a part
staple of the work I've doing.
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And it's exciting.
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I had a conversation with a
forest student from the class of
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95, and what he has done over
the last, I think, 17 years into
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a finance job in New York, I'm
not positive.
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He eventually came back to his
firm, which his father had
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started in the 1930s.
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And this is, you know, one
office.
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He has taken that over, run it
in a way that's very consistent
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with the stuff that I write
about.
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And 17 years later, its market
cap isn't$25 million, it's not
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$50 million, it's not$100
million, it's$3.5 billion.
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Oh wow.
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And that's just the economics.
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He's got what 25 times the
number of employees, he's got a
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huge number of customers that
are very, very satisfied.
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You bump into these exciting
stories, and what he was saying
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is, much as you did in the
beginning of this conversation,
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that he's been following my
written material since he was a
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student and using those
techniques, and they're paying
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off in a way that seems in many
ways hard to believe.
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But it's true, and we need lots
more of that in this world.
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SPEAKER_02: And you've
contributed a lot to that,
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Professor Cutter.
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But knowing that I have some
mayors, including big city
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mayors, that are fans of this
podcast that have sent emails, I
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can't let that go without
understanding.
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When you looked at the most
effective mayors and the ones
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that weren't that effective,
what were some of your key
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findings that then led to your
understanding of leadership and
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change?
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SPEAKER_01: Although I'm not
sure how much I used the words
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leadership vision, building a
network of relationships that go
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far beyond just the municipal
bureaucracy, empowering people
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and inspiring people, in a
sense, create a mass movement
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towards some vision of making
the city a lot better, despite
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very, very difficult on it.
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We had riots going on in the
late 1960s that were hurting
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people, putting people in jail,
causing terrible property damage
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on the downside.
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And what leadership, which is
what we got from the best
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mayors, did was to not just try
to minimize the damage.
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The mindset is what are the real
opportunities at this time for
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this city that will make a
difference in people's lives?
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People could understand talking
relentlessly about it, getting
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people bought in and enthused
and mobilized, and then having
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the faith to let go.
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Because all great leaders
throughout history are not
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control freaks.
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It doesn't work.
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You don't create mass movements
by trying to control everybody's
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actions.
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And that's what these mayors
did.
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And what's interesting also,
thinking back right this minute,
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is we're all very different
personalities.
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So it's not a personality issue,
it's a behavior issue, it's a
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mindset issue, it's a way of
looking at the job.
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The worst mayors saw the job as
purely a way to further their
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own narrow interests.
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A bit up from that, people who
saw the job and very much make
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the bureaucracy function
minimally well so I can get
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re-elected.
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And then you kept taking steps
up until you find people who are
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really seeing that even if it's
not in the job description of
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the mayor, the name of the game
is to provide leadership to find
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the opportunities in the
challenging and changing
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environment, mobilize people to
capitalize on those and achieve
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more than people think is
possible.
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Exciting stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: It really is,
Professor Cotter.
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And one of the other elements
that is really exciting is that
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in some respects you've stayed
consistent with some of your
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messaging, but you've added more
research and more information.
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And in this latest book, Change,
you talk about the three major
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root systems that define the
science of change, and you go
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into the human nature elements
of it more than I think you had
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gone into in the past.
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So, what role does the human
nature and our resistance to
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change and our capacity for
change play in organizational
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change?
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SPEAKER_01: One of the fields of
science that has come a long way
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in the last 20 years and has a
long way to go, is understanding
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of the human brain and the
hormonal system and everything
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that accounted with is our basic
heart wiring, if you will.
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And four years ago, I started at
the consulting company that I
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found, co-founded, a study group
to look into that to see if
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there was something that would
help us go deeper in our
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understanding of why and how
some people were able to bring
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about incredible changes that
benefited the masses.
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We decided that indeed there was
something there.
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It was sometimes hard to find.
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We talked to the specialists who
are neurologists, because they
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are business people or don't
know much of the organizations.
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Insight number one, which has
huge implications for all of us,
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is we all, almost savious
people, have built into us a
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system, if you will, like a
radar that's going on probably
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24 hours a day when we're
sleeping, that's looking for
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threats.
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And when it perceives a threat,
it sends out chemical
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information that spikes our
energy level, that focuses our
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mind like a laser on the threat,
and can get us to do really
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quite remarkable things very
quickly to get away from that
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problem.
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When it was originally being
developed 200,000 years ago to
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run away from the fable
saber-toothed tiger or whatever,
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and zip up a tree at lightning
speed.
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That system still is in us and
it is very powerful.
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And the average person,
including myself until I did
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this work, totally
underestimates how it plays into
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our lives today.
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Because today, that same threat
radar doesn't just look for
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saber-tooth tigers, it looks for
anything that it's been
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programmed to believe could be a
threat to our ego, to our job,
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to our salary and career, to our
relationships.
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And we live in a world today
that is more complex and more
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volatile and more noisy than the
world in which that system was
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developed 200,000 years ago by a
factor of who knows what, 100,
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200.
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So what that means is if only
unconscious, somewhere in our
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bodies, all the time, 20 times a
day, 50 times a day, there's a
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little system going threat,
chemicals are going up, we're
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feeling a little stressed as our
body tries to figure out okay,
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do I climb a tree?
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What do I do here?
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Now, that system still, when it
works well, because there are
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real threats in this world.
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Every time you cross the street,
you can be hit by a bus.
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And there are threats on the job
that are problems that need to
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be dealt with quickly, with
energy, and with focus.
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The problem is the world is so
noisy, and pandemics, politics,
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the economy and the stock
market, cable TV news, the
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number of things that can send
us off, and after a point, what
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happens is the system doesn't
work the way it was designed
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for.
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It just overheats in a sense.
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It's like a car.
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It's radiator, it's just run out
of water, and it just comes to
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all.
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And it kills our capacity to not
only deal with the threat, more
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importantly, any capacity we
have to look for opportunities,
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provide that leadership,
mobilize the masses, make
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important things happen, it
tends to get shut down.
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Now, the good news is we do have
another system on this that is
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oriented toward that latter set
of actions, my best mayors.
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It helps us as a species thrive,
and it helps you and I as
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individuals thrive by A, looking
for opportunities, B sending out
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different chemicals that raise
our energy, make us feel
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excited, sometimes passionate
about some issue.
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And as long as we can make
progress for what we perceive to
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be progress on whatever that
opportunity is, then energy can
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stay up for a remarkably long
period of time.
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It's not at the peak and then
exhaustion and you fall asleep.
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And understanding that those two
systems with the survived one
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more powerful are at the heart
of human nature, has all kinds
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of implications for managing
people, running organizations,
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and the like.
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And more often than not, because
it gets absorbed by an
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individual view being as a
threat to our survival, we
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define the problem.
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How do I get out from underneath
this problem?
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Which doesn't help at all.
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If you look at how great leaders
and great organizations create
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and maintain a sense of urgency,
I see much clearer than when I
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first wrote that 25 years ago.
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It's all about opportunity, it's
all about getting people excited
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about some possibility.
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And it's all about that level of
energetic passion that gets
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translated into people being
alert on a daily basis as they
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do their jobs for just little
things they can do to push a
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strategic initiative ahead.
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That is what makes for a sense
of urgency and keeps it up for
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enough time to achieve something
really significant.
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SPEAKER_02: Professor Carter,
what role does organizational
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purpose play in being able to
create a positive thriving sense
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of urgency in people rather than
a negative one?
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SPEAKER_01: Once you get some
clarity on what your biggest
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opportunities are, the second
question is, okay, it's an
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opportunity, but what's the
point?
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Capitalizing on that opportunity
that could be done in ways that
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produce a variety of different
kinds of benefits.
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So what's our objective?
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What's our mission?
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What's our purpose?
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And then with that in mind, you
can take a step back and say,
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okay, if that's the mission,
that's the purpose, what would
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this look like if we really made
progress over the next year or
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two years or five years?
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And that's a vision, which you
can start articulating and
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talking to people about and
making something less abstract
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and more concrete about how you
would be treating what kind of
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customers you'd be dealing with,
how you'd be treating them, et
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cetera, et cetera.
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So I think purpose is an
important piece of it, but it's
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a piece that kind of sits in
between opportunity and vision.
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A month ago, two months ago, had
an opportunity to talk to the
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gentleman who was the chairman
and CEO of now the sixth largest
256
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bank at the U.S.
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His name is Kelly King.
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I've not met him face to face,
but I've had a chance to talk
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to.
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He came into my life because,
believe it or not, he bought
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close to 28,000 books for his
entire staff.
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And the general public, unless
you're in the southeast, would
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not recognize the name of this
company because it's a new name,
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a function of a merger.
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And in talking to him, and in
talking to his CEO, Bill Rogers,
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when I asked them, how did you
go about thinking about merger
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integration?
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And where did you start?
269
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Kelly says, We started with
purpose and they got hit with
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COVID like three months later.
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But they have managed to do a
remarkable job during this COVID
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period of bringing these two
organizations together because
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they didn't do what is the
normal MA game, which is you've
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got a checklist of things that
have to be done, and you've got
275
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to check them all off, and
nobody thinks they're a bigger
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sense or a more human sense or
recognizes the big problem that
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could come about, which is
you've got two organizations
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that don't ever grow together,
you never get the one plus one
279
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,200
equals three.
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You end up with two cultures
that fight each other.
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And by talking about purpose and
in very human terms for the
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entire bank, they got the MA
integration off to a terrific
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start, and despite the problems
of COVID, they've made
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incredible progress.
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SPEAKER_02: That's a wonderful
example, Professor Cutter.
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And the reason I encourage
everyone to reflect on it is
287
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that a lot of times we forget
when we're talking about change
288
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and change in organizations.
289
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It's humans in human systems.
290
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It is not structural.
291
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And the mistakes.
292
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,440
A lot of times people make it,
even looking at your eight
293
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,720
steps, is that they approach it
as steps on a PowerPoint slide
294
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rather than recognizing it's
humans that need to embrace
295
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this.
296
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That's why the research and the
thoughts that you shared with
297
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,119
respect to how to incorporate
that sense of purpose and a
298
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,440
positive sense of urgency are,
in my view, some of the most
299
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,920
critical thinking needed for
organizations to be able to
300
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change.
301
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Most change initiatives, as you
know, vast majority, almost 80%,
302
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fail in part because that's
exactly what they fail at doing.
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SPEAKER_01: There's no question.
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00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,240
It's ultimately people that
either make it work or end up in
305
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,880
a survive mode and resisting
change or passively undermining
306
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:55,200
you.
307
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,400
Not because they're bad people,
they're just being human beings,
308
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,720
and you're not approaching them
correctly in the way you go
309
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about trying to make change.
310
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SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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Now you build on that, and you
also talk about the challenge we
312
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:14,160
have with modern organizations
and their limitation.
313
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,880
There is a management-centric
design that has been built at
314
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,319
least over the past hundred
years for reliability and
315
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:27,519
efficiency, and those are not
the designs that can take us
316
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into the future.
317
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,160
SPEAKER_01: Most people, I
suspect, don't realize that
318
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:39,359
organizations as we know them
really were first built because
319
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:45,920
of the Industrial Revolution and
science in the late 19th
320
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:46,559
century.
321
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:53,440
The average business before
that, before the Civil War, had
322
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,359
maybe five employees.
323
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,200
A single textile bill with maybe
80 employees.
324
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:13,039
That all began to change at the
end of the 19th century.
325
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,519
And what they discovered is that
when you try to involve a
326
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:26,640
thousand or five thousand people
at not one but fifty locations,
327
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,039
the whole thing dured chaos.
328
00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:34,319
And so they had to invent, and
they did invent in the late 19th
329
00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:38,799
century, something which today
we call management.
330
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:44,960
There were no managed schools of
business before the 1880s.
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They didn't exist, they weren't
needed.
332
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:54,640
But the disciples' purpose was
to somehow coordinate all of
333
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,839
these people doing different
jobs in different locations in a
334
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:05,200
way that was efficient enough to
make money for investors and
335
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,759
reliable enough to give the
service or product to the
336
00:25:09,759 --> 00:25:10,640
customer.
337
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:18,240
That was a huge innovation at
the time and a hugely difficult
338
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:18,880
task.
339
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:26,079
Although, if you looked at a
business around 1990 versus
340
00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:30,480
today, you would see a lot of
differences that are a function
341
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,400
of the fact that they didn't
have cell phones, they didn't
342
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,640
have TVs, they didn't have the
kind of building that I'm in
343
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,279
right now.
344
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:45,839
But the organizational form in
terms of an entity plans and
345
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:52,160
budgets, and has a hierarchical
structure, and uh has a system
346
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,279
for bringing in and hiring floor
and cinematic stuff, and that
347
00:25:57,279 --> 00:25:59,359
focuses on metrics.
348
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:05,519
That was invented then, still
used today, but it doesn't
349
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:11,200
produce outcomes of innovation
leaping into the future,
350
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,119
adapting quickly and agily to
change that wasn't the purpose,
351
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:18,880
and it doesn't do it.
352
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,400
Now, can you take the basic
organizational form that comes
353
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,480
out of the industrial revolution
of 150 years ago and make it
354
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:35,839
something that can be much more
adaptive, agile, etc.?
355
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,839
Yeah, that's what we've been
studying now for decades.
356
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:47,200
And it comes back to leadership,
it comes back to a variety of
357
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,599
processes and behaviors that
were not centrally in court to
358
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:59,359
most businesses under 50 years
ago, like creating and
359
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,680
maintaining a sense of urgency.
360
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,480
And what the great businesses
are doing today, and I would say
361
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:13,200
public institutions too, is
they're experimenting with how
362
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,000
to not throw away the machine
that makes sure that the trains
363
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,599
run on time, so to speak, but
they can add another piece that
364
00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:31,359
can work hand in glove together
with the traditional form that
365
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,119
can be innovative and adaptive.
366
00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:39,759
It's more leadership than
management, it's more network
367
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,559
than hierarchy, it's more hard
and monitored or physical labor.
368
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,640
And everybody's gonna have to go
that way eventually.
369
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,839
And right now, I'm going to be
talking to some people who run
370
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960
federal agencies in the U.S.
371
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,079
next week.
372
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,920
It's just doing it prep before
we started talking.
373
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,480
And some of them have got real
challenges.
374
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:16,000
Their bureaucracies are just so
slow, slow to adapt and so
375
00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:18,000
survive oriented.
376
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:20,960
Who's the next administration?
377
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,440
What are they gonna do to us?
378
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,559
And yet, if we can't get those
federal, state level, and city
379
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:36,400
level bureaucracies into the
21st century, we are all going
380
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,160
to suffer greatly.
381
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,359
But I go back to my mayors and I
can say it can be done.
382
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,880
We've seen it.
383
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:49,759
It's amazing what can be done,
understanding what creates
384
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:56,079
adaptive change, agile change to
take advantage of the
385
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:57,279
opportunities.
386
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,480
SPEAKER_02: It is really hard,
Professor Cotter.
387
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920
I'm, as you know, out of Greater
Washington, D.C.
388
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,839
region, and a lot of
organizations, whether federal
389
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,000
agencies or quasi-government
organizations, talk about the
390
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,839
limitations, their board of
directors, and the structures
391
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,680
and how hard it is.
392
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,440
But part of what you talk about
is the fact that there is need
393
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,359
for leadership and there is need
for greater leadership.
394
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:28,480
I love your quote.
395
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:31,200
You say leadership is not the
province of the few.
396
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,160
The only way we can adapt is to
have lots of us lead.
397
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,440
SPEAKER_01: The hardest solution
to our biggest challenges these
398
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,839
days is getting more leadership
from more people.
399
00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:49,039
The unusual suspects.
400
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,880
We have seen in our consulting
practice again and again
401
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:02,400
examples that of people who the
top executives have never heard
402
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:02,640
of.
403
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,160
They're buried in the hire.
404
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:11,039
We got great stories about third
shift manufacturing workers,
405
00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:16,079
about young people that are on
nobody's chart of high
406
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:22,079
potentials, about old people,
somebody that's five years from
407
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:27,119
retirement, that is assumed by
the powers that be out the
408
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:34,799
pasture, who, if you handle them
correctly, if you can reach and
409
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,799
help activate their throttle
mechanism with good leadership,
410
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,640
they turn into leaders for
people around them, and you get
411
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,839
enough of those people leading,
and you get a mass movement.
412
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,799
I mean, if you go back, the
first high tech organization in
413
00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:59,519
the globe was IBM.
414
00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:05,119
And if you look at the Tom
Watson story, it's a fascinating
415
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:05,519
story.
416
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,599
But even though it's set at a
time that's almost a century
417
00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:15,279
ago, and in an environment that
had no computers, that's
418
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:17,039
post-World War II.
419
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:23,279
Nevertheless, if you look at his
actions as the head of a
420
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:29,920
business, they're not that
different from the student I was
421
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,319
telling you about earlier, who's
increased the market cap on his
422
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,400
firm by an unfathomably large
amount.
423
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:47,359
He mobilized huge numbers of
people within IBM to innovate at
424
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:53,759
a time when innovation as an
industry was not the norm, and
425
00:31:54,079 --> 00:32:01,039
to work hard and be loyal and be
positive during the beginning of
426
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:07,279
the depression, when most
organizations were facing and
427
00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:14,160
created by the actions of the
executive, the exact opposite
428
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,160
loyalty going down, depression
going up, etc.
429
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:18,880
etc.
430
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:26,160
Then now mobilizing more people
to provide more leadership.
431
00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:33,039
I am absolutely convinced, based
on now what, fifteen research
432
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:40,640
studies over 40 years is the
central key to a prospering
433
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:47,119
organization, and even broader
to a prospering society and
434
00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:47,759
world.
435
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,400
SPEAKER_02: And Professor
Cotter, the question is how you
436
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:56,400
highlighted beautifully that
there is an element in human
437
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,559
nature in creating this sense of
urgency, we need to appeal to
438
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:04,000
the thrive rather than push
people into survive.
439
00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:09,599
That modern organizations need
to be rethought with respect to
440
00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:13,920
greater leadership and less
management structures, and that
441
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,799
we need leadership all across
the organization.
442
00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:22,319
So, as leaders are listening to
you, what do they need to do to
443
00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,559
make that a reality within their
organizations to have more
444
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,519
people lead the way you say it
takes to lead change in the
445
00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:32,160
organization?
446
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,920
SPEAKER_01: Start small and let
it grow organically.
447
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:46,559
Do not put together a plan with
96 PowerPoint slides that will
448
00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:48,799
put all your people to sleep.
449
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,160
Seriously.
450
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,519
Start with yourself.
451
00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:57,440
As next, what do you think are
the big opportunities that your
452
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:03,279
department or your division or
your company how well are you
453
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:06,880
moving to take advantage of
those opportunities?
454
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,400
The answer, if you're honest,
will be not as fast or as well
455
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:19,360
as you could, then all right,
how can we get some discussion
456
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,159
going about that and not just
about problems?
457
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:30,719
Not to ignore problems, that's
not the point, but more
458
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:37,039
communication and more dialogue
and more hallway chatter on
459
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,079
opportunity for us, then see who
reacts to that.
460
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,119
Everybody won't react in an
enthusiastic and positive way.
461
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,400
That's okay.
462
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,960
For those who do, allow them
into the discussion.
463
00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:01,360
Form informal network groups
that start looking for ways to
464
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,039
move projects along faster and
better.
465
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:12,559
Don't stifle them with rules and
how to run the task force or
466
00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:13,119
whatever.
467
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,079
Let it be more organic.
468
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:23,039
Be very careful to make sure
that they actually do achieve
469
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:23,599
something.
470
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,039
One of the things that we do at
the Selling Firm is show people
471
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:35,280
how you can mobilize a group of
people in 90 days to achieve
472
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,760
much more than they believe is
possible.
473
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:43,519
And how that builds momentum,
creates credibility, pulls more
474
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:44,800
people into this.
475
00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:50,000
Now you're getting a kind of a
mass movement around whatever
476
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,679
the initiative is.
477
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,519
There's no reason that everybody
has to be brought in at the
478
00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:58,079
beginning.
479
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,400
That's just not natural.
480
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,800
Innovation comes for first.
481
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,480
We know that.
482
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,079
When we set up guiding
coalitions, what we call guiding
483
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:14,159
coalitions, we always want to
have a senior exec and an
484
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,239
executive assistant.
485
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,159
It's awkward at first because
they're not used to being in the
486
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:22,079
same media as peers.
487
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,360
But you can teach people to do
that.
488
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:29,760
And once they get used to it,
it's so human, it's so natural.
489
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,719
They like it, and they can start
interacting in a new way with
490
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,800
new information, better
information flows, which means
491
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,000
more innovation.
492
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,440
The fact that they're doing it
and it's their ideas, they get
493
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,840
it more and more excited about
it.
494
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,840
Again, as you guide to make sure
that they achieve something that
495
00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,719
will start to squell skepticism
and start to get more people
496
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,159
excited, you start to bill and
you bill.
497
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:10,559
And over a period of time, you
go from maybe at first three
498
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:16,559
people are providing leadership
on this big opportunity to a
499
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:19,920
time when hundreds or more are.
500
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,920
I mean, the data is so clear
when you look at how much the
501
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,079
rate, volatility, complexity of
change.
502
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:36,079
It's been going up for 200 years
with a big blip in the last 50
503
00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:40,639
years, and now in the last two,
of course, COVID has thrown all
504
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:43,920
kinds of wild challenges at us.
505
00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:48,480
Who knows what will be the next
thing in the produce spike?
506
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,840
But the curve is that one, and
building change muscle, if you
507
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,960
will, inside a firm is
essential.
508
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:02,079
And it can be done by actually
doing it.
509
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,119
Number one, watch out for people
who are selling you a blueprint
510
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:13,599
of exactly the way it should be
in five years because nobody
511
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:14,239
knows.
512
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,519
The name of the game is
learning, trying things that are
513
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:24,320
intelligent, which will require
change always, and leadership.
514
00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,119
Learning, evolving.
515
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:32,480
Number two, taking a look at
what you're doing that you
516
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,440
didn't do before the pandemic.
517
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,920
And making sure that it works
better, and making sure you
518
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,760
don't lose this when you go back
to work.
519
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:51,280
Companies are going to kind of
stumble upon some habits that
520
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,639
are actually better the way we
used to work.
521
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,960
We don't want to go back to
that.
522
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:05,280
Three, be very careful that you
don't pull back with the real
523
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,480
estate and the face-to-face
interaction and the normal way
524
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,159
we have meetings, etc.
525
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,880
Some methods of operating that
you should have probably gotten
526
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,679
rid of ten years ago, that the
pandemic forced you out of, but
527
00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:28,239
never underestimate the power of
history of pulling things back
528
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,440
the way they were.
529
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:37,039
And search relentlessly for the
opportunities that this awful
530
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:39,599
two years presents to you.
531
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,880
I have yet to see the business
that I've had a chance to look
532
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,559
at innate detail.
533
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:55,840
One arena of activity that is
open to them today for great
534
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,880
promise that literally was not
available two years ago because
535
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,559
of the conditions then.
536
00:40:03,199 --> 00:40:07,679
Everybody should be looking for
those opportunities and getting
537
00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:10,719
their people to focus on them.
538
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:19,840
And finally, we've got to start
using the time when we quote go
539
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,880
back to work, which is going to
require some changes, as not
540
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:31,920
only a time to make intelligent
changes, but as a way of
541
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,599
practicing building our change
muscle.
542
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,119
Because we all need to have
firms with greater change
543
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:47,360
muscle, which relates to more
people providing more leadership
544
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,039
for better results.
545
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,159
To go back to the very first
thing I said on this, I can see
546
00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:57,679
it coming because I've seen some
articles recently.
547
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,679
The future of work, here's what
it's going to look like in four
548
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:02,159
years.
549
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,000
Nobody knows.
550
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,360
That's okay.
551
00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:06,880
Don't be afraid of that.
552
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:11,039
As a matter of fact, the fact
that nobody knows means your
553
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:12,800
competition doesn't know ether.
554
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,159
The name of the game is
Evolving, Changing, Learning,
555
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,039
and not making negative
assumptions.
556
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,679
Again, if you look at the big
picture over the last 200 years,
557
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,679
humanity has made unbelievable
progress.
558
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:40,559
There is no reason why that kind
of progress, if we handle our
559
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,760
organizations, businesses, and
governments can't continue for
560
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,079
another 200 or 400 or 600 years.
561
00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:55,599
I think the possibilities for
the human race and for my
562
00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:00,159
children, your children, our
grandchildren are absolute
563
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,280
fantastic.
564
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:02,000
SPEAKER_02: They are.
565
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:19,840
SPEAKER_01: And it's with some
text about his life, pictures
566
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:26,320
from his life, on the first
page, which is blank, in shaky
567
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:32,719
handwriting, is a note from
Nelson Mandela to me.
568
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,800
It's a long story about what
created that, but it reminds me
569
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:45,760
that his autobiography is one of
the great books, I think, of all
570
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,719
time in helping us to understand
something about leadership.
571
00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:56,480
There is so much in there that
you can pick up about the way a
572
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:01,119
person like that thinks and the
way he treats other people, the
573
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,000
way he goes after opportunities.
574
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,480
It's a marvelous book to read.
575
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,599
SPEAKER_02: So, Professor
Cotter, what's the best way for
576
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:14,239
the audience to find out more
about your own consulting firm
577
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,000
that you have in addition to
your books and other resources?
578
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:18,880
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
579
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:28,880
If you go to www.cotter Inc., so
it's K-O-T-T-E-R-I-N-C.com, you
580
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,599
will find a lot of free
resources and stories from the
581
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:36,480
feedback we've got can be very
helpful.
582
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,079
This is the new book.
583
00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:45,840
It's only been out two months,
and it has the latest of the
584
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,199
studies and the recommendations
and the stories for my work.
585
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,599
And that's available through
regular book sources.
586
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,559
SPEAKER_02: Professor Connor, as
I mentioned at the beginning,
587
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,440
you have contributed
significantly to our
588
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,480
understanding of change over the
years.
589
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,280
And I've studied a lot of your
work, both in leading
590
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,000
organizations and now in guiding
organizations, in coaching them
591
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,280
and consulting with them.
592
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:16,559
So I appreciate that.
593
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,679
And I most especially appreciate
this new book, Change, How
594
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:23,440
Organizations Achieve Hard to
Imagine Results in Uncertain and
595
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,000
Volatile Times, which we do live
in, primarily because, as I
596
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,079
mentioned to you, I hadn't
married the concept of the
597
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:36,800
urgency with the need for it to
be a positive urgency as much.
598
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,199
And that really resonated.
599
00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:44,480
And the difficulty, but the
necessity to have leadership at
600
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:49,280
all levels, it is not just at
the senior or most executive
601
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:49,760
levels.
602
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,840
Those will be the organizations
that survive and thrive into the
603
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:54,239
future.
604
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,639
So I truly appreciate all of
your contributions over the
605
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:02,960
years and taking your time to
share some of your thoughts in
606
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,840
this brilliant book and in the
partnering leadership
607
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,400
conversation.
608
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,039
Thank you so much, Professor
John Cotter.
609
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,880
SPEAKER_01: It has been my
pleasure.
610
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:12,480
Keep up the good work.
611
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,719
SPEAKER_00: You have been
listening to Partnering
612
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,039
Leadership with your host,
Mohammed Tavakoli.
613
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,639
If you enjoyed this episode,
please leave a rating and review
614
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,480
of the podcast on your favorite
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615
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,760
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616
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,800
people discover their purpose,
grow professionally with
617
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,119
meaning, and have a greater
impact.
618
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,400
For additional leadership
insights and bonus content,
619
00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:39,519
visit us at
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