speaker-0: There were plenty of warning signs. They were blinded by by what they wanted to see, not was not what was right in front of them. She minimized it, justified it, basically turned it around and blamed the student.
speaker-1: Welcome to Parallel Justice. I'm Renee Williams, the CEO of the National Center for Victims of Crime, and your host for this series. Sometimes the criminal justice system fails to obtain justice for victims. This can occur when prosecutions end in acquittal or if the charges are not filed at all. Even following a conviction, victims of crime can be left with devastating damages. So what then is civil justice? Well, Crime victims can file civil lawsuits against offenders and other responsible parties regardless of the outcome of a criminal prosecution, or even if there was no prosecution at all. While money awarded in civil lawsuits will never fully compensate a victim for their trauma, it can be a valuable resource to help victims of crime rebuild their lives. And it is a powerful incentive to hold institutions, landlords, businessmen, and employers accountable. In this series, we look at civil justice through criminal acts and bring together diverse perspectives to tackle complex questions of accountability, justice, and healing. Parallel Justice is brought to you by the National Crime Victim Bar Association, a program of the National Center for Victims of Crime. More information about the National Center and the National Crime Victim Bar Association is available at victimsofrime.org. Please be advised, some of the topics we discuss may be disturbing. This podcast is intended for adult audiences only. While some of these topics may be triggering, we have resources available to help you practice good self-care and seek support. Confidential, compassionate support is available via call, text, or chat at victimconnect.org. The views expressed in the following podcast are those of our guests, who are experts in these areas. Their opinions are invaluable, however, they do not necessarily reflect the views of the National Center for Victims of Crime. We acknowledge that some of these views may be controversial. However, our goal in these discussions is to raise awareness of victims' rights and the options available to them. Please enjoy the podcast. Welcome back to another Parallel Justice. I'm your host, Renee Williams. And joining me today, we have a very special guest, Dave Ring. Dave, welcome to Parallel Justice. Thanks for joining us for today's show. I want to get started by having you start by introducing yourself. Who are you? What do you do? Where do you practice? Tell us about you.
speaker-0: Well, thank you for having me, Renee. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here. My name's Dave Ring. I am a lawyer in Los Angeles, and my firm is Taylor and Ring. And that firm's been in existence for 20 years, but I've been a lawyer for 30 years. And for the vast majority of that time, a great part of my law practice has been representing victims of sexual assault and sexual abuse. And I've represented children as young as age six. And I've represented adults as old as in their their 50s who brought cases back from when they were children or even when they were adults. So I've gone represented the full spectrum of victims. And it's a practice that ⁓ it's very emotional, it's very stressful, but ultimately it's a very rewarding. practice because I think our I do and my law firm brings this sense of justice to these victims once they get through the cases and and they they gain a sense of power back from these cases. So that's just a little bit about me.
speaker-1: And we're here today to talk specifically about abuse in schools because you are one of the preeminent attorneys in the countries that takes these cases on. So speaking broadly, how common is abuse in schools and how many cases have you represented?
speaker-0: The sad fact is that it's way too common. It's and even now, even in 2021, it's just happens too much. I I've told this to other people, you know, the first case I did was back in the mid-1990s. And it was a teacher who molested a fifth grade boy. And my law partner at the time and I, we got this tremendous verdict after a jury trial. And I turned to my law partner, you know, within the few days after as I go, you know. I mean, that was a great result, but these cases are not going to last because it's got to be the number one priority for schools to make sure this never happens again. And I said that back in the 90s. And I go, these cases are going to go away. Schools are going to clean up their act. Well, here we are in 2021. And it's as big a problem as it's ever been. And it's and it's very frustrating. It's sad. So, but the reality is it's all too common.
speaker-1: And I think you bring up a good point. These cases, especially in the late 90s, were highly publicized. And even though we're going to talk about two young women today who were abused, what we saw in the 90s and what got publicized most often was young men being abused who were teenagers by their 20-year-old teachers. And those were the cases that really made the headlines. But there are a lot more cases that are still happening today.
speaker-0: I have represented every type of kid you can imagine: boy, girl, Val Victorian of the high school, all the way down to the kid who's struggling and barely gets by with grades, the best athlete at the school to a kid who's a loner. Every type of kid is vulnerable to being abused. And it's not about their parents or how they are brought up or their personality. It's about predators who target. certain vulnerable victims. And they run the gambit.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And you've had, as you mentioned, several cases. You've had several high profile cases that I'd like to start unpacking. Too specifically, I'd like to talk about the Marlborough case and the Lucia Maher case. Let's start with Marlborough first. There were a lot of girls involved in this case, but I really want to specifically talk about your client Chelsea. Can you give everybody an overview of what happened?
speaker-0: So Marlborough School is one of the most prestigious and elite private high schools in California. It's in Los Angeles. It's an all-girls school. It's the oldest private high school in Los Angeles. And it's it's very well known. You have a very, you know, wealthy families whose kids attend there, very high profile, the entertainment business, just all sorts of well-known names who kids attend there. And it's a great school. But they had a big problem. They had a male English teacher who was there for about 14 years who was sexually harassing, sexually assaulting, and engaging in sex with female students. And they had plenty of complaints and notice about it, and they really did nothing about it. And ultimately, after about 14 years, it came to a head and became well publicized because one girl went finally to the police. I ended up representing a girl named Chelsea. Who had been victimized early on by this teacher whose name is Mr. Ketters. And Chelsea ⁓ was very courageous throughout the case. You know, it took a lot for her to come forward. And she saw this civil lawsuit all the way through. And the result was, you know, some amazing changes that were made at that school.
speaker-1: Now we always hear that there's usually a grooming process in any type of child sex abuse, whether it be in the church, in schools, in Boy Scouts, most predators have a process they use to groom. Did ketters in this case have a consistent MO?
speaker-0: He did, and every perpetrator does, and it depends on the age of the victim. And grooming is really another word for conditioning, for gaining trust. And so, you know, we're going to talk about another case where the victim was young, you know, nine years old. And there's a different technique that these pedophiles use for someone that young. But with teenagers, men or or boys or girls in high school, and particularly in this case, this teacher was classic. classic in the way that he went about it with these girls. And so he was this English teacher. And remember, it's an all-girls school. And so he was the cool guy, the flashy guy. He is the guy who would cuss in the classroom. You know, he would try to gain these girls trust. And what he really did was he would target certain individuals who he knew were vulnerable. And he would then gain time with them alone. Hey, stay after class. Let's talk about this reading assignment. Hey, you know, why don't you come over here and let's go to lunch together and we'll talk about something about the, you know, the English class. He complimented the particular target a lot. That's a common practice. Compliments and gifts and making them feel special and all of that. And then what he did though, his tactic that he always used, he would introduce sex talk into the conversation by using literature. He would talk about some book that had some, you know, sexual themes in it. And he would do that to get these girls to start talking about sexual themes. And he would then use that to start talking about their own personal lives. And that's how he introduced sex into the conversations. And he would take it from there. He would then, you know, if he felt like he had a vulnerable target and they weren't resisting, next thing you know, he puts his hand on their leg or on their knee and he touches them on the back and he starts having very personal conversations with them. All this takes place over a few months. Next thing you know, he's kissing them and having sex with them. That's how these guys work.
speaker-1: And I like that you distinguish between how children are groomed versus how teenagers are groomed. There's actually a movie out right now that as you were talking, it reminded me of the documentary called What Haunts Us, which was about a teacher in South Carolina who is abusing young boys and what has happened to those young men. And I think there are going to be a lot of parallels within this story. We said there were lots of girls in this case. Chelsea was just one, and this went on for presumably 14 years. What were the adults doing in this case?
speaker-0: It's interesting because when you go back and look at it, there were plenty of warning signs, and there were specific complaints from parents. And what happened was the head of school was also a female who'd been the head of school for a long time. She was so enamored with Mr. Ketters. He was the star teacher. He could do no wrong. Every time she fielded a complaint, she minimized it, justified it, basically. Turned it around and blamed the student or said, ⁓ there's you're you're imagining this, and did nothing. And that just empowered Ketters even more because he knew that the administration wasn't going to take any complaints seriously. And they had some very, very specific complaints along the way that he was sexually harassing girls. And they literally minimized them and did nothing to him and let him continue. Now, why did they do that? They didn't want to believe it. They didn't want to have a scandal. They didn't want to confront him. They couldn't believe their star teacher would ever do such a thing. They were blinded by what they wanted to see, not what was right in front of them.
speaker-1: Did anybody ask them what the concept of a mandatory reporter meant to them?
speaker-0: ⁓ you know, just for people who don't know, anyone who works in education and and really in a lot of different fields that deal with children are mandated reporters of suspected abuse. And it could be physical abuse, verbal abuse, or sexual abuse. And if they have a suspicion, a reasonable suspicion, they have to report that suspicion to law enforcement. And they have a certain amount of time to do it. Here, the, you know, the administrators, their justification was, well, we didn't suspect. You know, we didn't think he was doing anything. And that's the problem, is that a lot of professionals in the field just go, Well, I didn't suspect anything. And when other folks look at it like, how could you not suspect anything? How could you not? Any reasonable person would suspect something. And so that's a real frustration in the field of education with people not fulfilling their mandated reporting requirements.
speaker-1: And I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but were criminal charges ever brought against the administrators for not reporting? No.
speaker-0: No, no, the the teacher himself was criminally convicted. It's unfortunate, but it is very, very rare to see criminal charges brought against administrators. And it's unfortunate because a lot of times they should be brought against administrators. And I think there's a lot of opportunities to do that sometimes, but it it just it rarely happens. So
speaker-1: Back to this specific case, was there a documented history of him abusing in other schools?
speaker-0: Well, so here's the interesting thing about Mr. Ketters. Before he went to Marlborough, he worked for one year at another very prestigious school here in the Los Angeles area. And at that school, he was fired, basically fired after one year for sexually harassing girls, for being in a fight with a male student, and for basically being completely unfit to be a teacher. Fired. You know, they said, We don't you're out of here. We don't want you here. You are just not what we want at this school. And so there was a document history, and you're thinking, Well, how could this guy ever get hired at Marlborough? One of the top schools around. How would they ever hire this guy given he got fired from a school the year before? Well, that's the problem. This other school, its name is Viewpoint. They just wanted to get rid of ketters. And the quickest, easiest. Most efficient way to do it is to go to Ketters and say, tell you what, Ketters, you know, you can either go away quietly and we'll help facilitate that, or we, you know, you can put up a fight and we'll ruin the rest of your career. So tell you what, you go apply to some other schools, go away from our school here at Viewpoint, and we'll give you a glowing letter of recommendation to help you find another job. And that's exactly what they did. They gave Marlborough not only a written glowing recommendation, which was totally false, but also a verbal recommendation on the phone from viewpoints head of school to Marlborough's head of school. Complete fabricated lies about what type of teacher Ketters was. Is one school with an with a problem teacher, a guy like Ketters, wants to get rid of him quickly and efficiently without making a big fuss about it, and they cut a deal. Like you go away quietly, we'll give you a letter of recommendation and go away. And they are taking an unfit teacher and passing him on to another unsuspecting school. And, you know, the second school usually calls the first school and says, hey, what do we need to know about this teacher? And they get fed a bunch of lies and they hire him. It's a huge problem, not just in private schools, but in public schools as well. And again, there's been some accountability on that. ⁓ we're we've tried to make that not happen anymore. And I've seen it where, you know, it has lessened over the years, but it still happens.
speaker-1: So how was Ketterer finally brought to justice? Was it just one survivor or did that bring about others sharing their experience with him?
speaker-0: ⁓ in all of these cases, the perpetrator gets away with it for a while. in Ketter's case, he got away with it for a long time, you know, 12, 13, 14 years. And then he picks the wrong victim. And by that I mean he picks the victim who not only is going to tell him, No, get your hands off me, but then they're going to go blow the whistle on him and their parents are backing them up along the way. And that's what happened in in Marlborough, is that this one. particular young lady, ⁓ her name's Michaela, she knew exactly what Ketters was trying to do with her. And she told her parents, parents came into the school, made continued to complain and complain. And the parents weren't going away. And they finally, you know, blew this story up. And basically it's fascinating. What happened was Michaela wrote a blog about it. She was in college at the time and wrote a blog about what had happened. And so that blog suddenly circulated among Marlborough's community. And boom, all of a sudden you had all these alumni who said, Me too. And they all came forward and it was pretty powerful.
speaker-1: Glad you brought that up with parents because we've seen a shift in the decades in parents believing their children. Whereas before with schools, with churches, parents didn't necessarily believe it. This case received quite a bit of media attention, including a Vanity Fair article, because of the prominence of Marlboro as a school. How do you think this case would have played out? If there were less affluent parents or a differently abled victim, do you think the outcome would have been the same? And do you think privilege intersects with justice somewhere?
speaker-0: ⁓ you know what? My answer is going to surprise you, I think. ⁓ I think it would have been the same result at a lot of different schools, whether it's a public school in the inner city or ⁓ a Marlboro that's a very wealthy school in a very nice part of town. And I say that because I always find that there are certain parents, no matter what their economic status is or anything like that, who get it. And the second they hear their kid saying, you know, the teacher did this to me or did that to me, that's it. They are going to the school, they're going to the police, and they are gonna get their justice. And so I truly believe that and I've rep I've I've sued every type of school imaginable, you know. ⁓ and so I I I don't think I hate, I don't think justice or wealth ⁓ impacts this. These types of cases. I think that it's across the board that you're gonna have certain parents and certain kids who come forward and are able to bring the school to its knees and bring the perpetrator to justice.
speaker-1: Now, do you think the case would have received the amount of media attention it had?
speaker-0: Well, look, this Marlboro case received a tremendous amount of media attention because it was Marlboro and very high profile school with very high profile alumni and parents. So absolutely ⁓ I agree with you that that the media attention that followed this case was unprecedented because it was a Marboro. And no, some other school in New York City would never have attracted that type of media attention. So in that sense, it absolutely raised the profile of the case. The fact that the media was covering it, the LA Times, Vanity Fair was on the news, national news, that raised the profile tremendously and it and it put a lot of pressure on the school to ultimately do the right thing.
speaker-1: Where is this case now?
speaker-0: ⁓ this case was a few years old. And so it went in litigation for several years. And then on the eve of trial, it was resolved. Marlborough resolved the case. And the other thing that Marlborough did that's always really important to me as a lawyer, along the way, they had a new head of school come in. And that new head of school enacted a lot of new policies and procedures about sexual harassment and ⁓ teacher student interaction and things like that that were not in place. And she also did like outreach to the victims and she did all sorts of things that really helped bring closure to these victims. So it wasn't just a monetary settlement. It was true change at this school. And I I was, you know, very complimentary of her at the end of the case because I was impressed with what this new head of school did. More schools should do that. It was impressive.
speaker-1: Think that's an important part of this podcast, and the reason we called it parallel justice. Sometimes the criminal justice system does not approach what it's meant to approach, and justice is limited through that. Even in the civil justice system, sometimes justice is limited, but parallel justice is supposed to be a victim-centered approach to crime and harm that works with the justice system, independent from the criminal justice system, but with it, and a lot of times the outcomes. Are these policies that keep people safe?
speaker-0: Absolutely. I mean, the criminal justice system is aimed at putting the perpetrator in jail. I mean, let's face it. That's that's the ultimate goal. And the civil justice system has a lot broader reach to be a little bit more creative to try to bring about change. And so, you know, my law firm prides itself on sure, we want to do what's best for the client and obtain the largest settlement we can for them because they've been so dramatically harmed. But at the same time, we want to try to bring about change in some of these schools. And we can't force that upon them, but we can certainly try to negotiate and put pressure on them to make changes that really protect kids.
speaker-1: And I think that's one of the most important distinctions between clients that I hear about that come through the Crime Victim Bar Association is most of the time they're not concerned about the monetary amount. They almost uniformly and always say, I just want this to not happen to another person. I just want to protect other people.
speaker-0: That's a huge reason why you see victims ultimately come forward is because they'll either have, let's assume in in this Marlborough case, ⁓ you know, Chelsea did not come forward for a long time. And then when this other girl, Michaela, came forward years later and said, Here's what this creepy teacher is doing, Chelsea knew she had to come forward then. And it was critical that she did because there's strength in numbers. And, you know, anytime More victims come forward, boy, it's there you go. It's hard for the perpetrators to say, ⁓ this is just a coincidence. You know, he said, she said. But when you have multiple victims all saying the same thing and they don't even know each other, that's very powerful, very powerful. So, you know, these victims coming forward, it takes a lot of courage to do that. There's a lot of ramifications for doing that. But ultimately, in my experience at least, they have it's been a While it's a challenging experience to to bring a case, it's also incredibly rewarding and empowering.
speaker-1: I want to unpack it's Lucia, right? Okay. I want to unpack the Lucia Mahr case. But before I do that, I really think it's important to address the disability rights movement in this country and the challenges that are specific to individuals with disabilities and their resiliency. A 2018 survey published by the Journal of Intellectual Disability Research found that nearly 30% of people with
speaker-0: Yeah, the CMR School District.
speaker-1: mild or moderate intellectual disability have experienced a sexual assault? That's a scary number. In your experience in seeking justice for victims and survivors of sexual abuse in schools, especially in schools with kids for disabilities, who is generally believed?
speaker-0: There's no greater vulnerable student than the student who has special needs. That is an incredibly vulnerable kid. And it's insanely sad when an adult takes advantage of a special needs child in a way to engage in sexual misconduct and sexual abuse. And I think it's very easy for school officials to ⁓ not believe special needs students, to say, well, you know, they're they're not quite. articulate enough or we're not really clear what they're saying or boy, they're inconsistent on these particular points. It's too easy to dismiss them.
speaker-1: I want to have a conversation specifically for parents and students who might be listening to this. Civil justice is not a silver bullet, and there are a lot of ramifications that victims should know about and special challenges that survivors of abuse might face when they come forward. Do you want to talk about some of the challenges your clients have faced, such as depositions not being believed? Time that's passed, what what the usual playbook is of these schools fighting.
speaker-0: Yeah, look, let's face it, litigation is brutal. Litigation is brutal. And it's really brutal and can be if you're a victim of sexual abuse. These schools they'll go out and they hire law firms. And these law firms, ⁓ they say all the right things, but when you get down and dirty in the litigation, they blame the victim. They blame the victim's parents. They put the victim through the ringer by having these. All day depositions. They have the victim go see a psychologist who's hired by the defense, who's been hired to say that there's no repercussions, the person's fine, they're malingering. I mean, they get put through the ringer. It's my job as a lawyer to make sure that doesn't happen. And I think my law firm is very good at ⁓ kind of quashing all of those tactics, but those tactics are out there. And so litigation is tough. The criminal process is tough. Just going through the criminal part of the case can be extremely tough because of the delays and the uncertainty and it's and the confusion on on what's really taken place in the criminal arena. So these victims and their parents, they go through a lot to get to reach the finish line. But they get there. It's not easy, but they get there. And, you know, usually the vast majority of them say, I'm glad I did it. It's the only way I was gonna get closure and bring change.
speaker-1: And what advice would you give for parents to look for in their students? And I think that this can be broken out into several different students, the teenage students who are experiencing vastly different things from the students with disabilities. What should parents be looking for?
speaker-0: I'd say if we're talking about younger kids, let's say, you know, age 12 and younger, I think the most important thing is is is if a child ever even hints that a teacher is doing something inappropriate, even if they just give a little hint that something might be off, you absolutely have to believe them. That's the kid's one chance saying, I'm gonna float this out there and see if someone believes me. And if they get shut down the first time they say it's in now, no, you're just You're just imagining things, they're not gonna come forward again. So I think the first thing you gotta do is because we all wanna say, no, there's no way that's happening, not with this teacher who I know, who I've who I've I've talked to. No way. So the first thing is you gotta believe your kid the second they say it, because like we talked about, it's the rare kid who makes it up. So I think if you're a parent, you know, if you even get a whiff that a teacher or a coach is communicating with your kid at night or on the weekends for no apparent reason. That is a a massive red flag that should be looked into further.
speaker-1: And I think we need to say it loudly and unequivocally. It is never the child's fault.
speaker-0: Ever. I'll repeat it. It is never, ever, ever the child's fault. You gotta I mean, who would think that? These are these are kids. Look, for younger kids, no one ever thinks that. But I'll tell you what, there's a subset out there who, if you're fifteen or sixteen or seventeen, ⁓ that that kid knows what they're doing. No, they don't. Yeah, well, they're not those kids who are anyone who has a teenager knows that those kids are not in a position to make adult
speaker-1: Okay, Laterno case.
speaker-0: Decisions like that. And again, it comes back to the concept of grooming. And grooming is simply a massive form of manipulation. The teacher who's in a position of authority, who has access to your child as a student and who has control over them because they can tell them what to do or how where to be for school, they can manipulate that kid and manipulate their vulnerabilities to get that kid to submit. To sexual misconduct. So it is never, ever the minor's fault. And anyone who suggests that should just be ostracized because it's outrageous to ever even suggest that. I'll tell you what, California enacted a law several years ago because defense lawyers would come in and try to blame the victim. California enact a law said you are absolutely not allowed to introduce any evidence in a case, in a civil case, where you try to blame the victim for being sexually abused.
speaker-1: I think that is a tremendous piece of legislation. Is there any other legislative efforts that you know of or that you think could happen that could help turn the tide of this?
speaker-0: You know, I think boy, it is it is truly an epidemic. And so I I think it all comes down to these organizations doing what they've already been, what they know they have to do. There are so many laws that are in place to make sure that adults are not able to molest kids, whether it's in school, youth sports, other youth activities, churches, what have you. And so now it's truly down to other adults, other employees who have to recognize it and have to be willing to report it because it's always recognizable. You know, why is that teacher always alone in their classroom with the door closed with that particular female student? I've seen it now 10 times. Well, why don't you report it then? Because that's your job. You know it's wrong. You know something suspicious is going on. Why don't you report it? And sure, we don't want to turn our world into a snitch world, but that's not snitching. That's protecting kids. So that's how I think we have to bring this to an end is to raise the awareness among everyone in jobs where they work with kids to keep an eye out and follow the rules. And people have to enforce the rules. They try to, of course, try to hide their records. And the background checks are not done competently and they sneak into the system. And there you go, you now got a predator among kids.
speaker-1: I mean, I'm just thinking I volunteer with kids a lot, and every single year that I want to do a new volunteer job, I have to do act thirty three, thirty-four clearance every year.
speaker-0: You bring up a good point. You know, there are hey, look, there are certain schools and organizations out there that they do this right. They are great at it. They follow the rules and they're very vigilant at making sure everyone has, you know, done the background check and done the formal interviews, and they really are good at at keeping predators out of the system. And then there's other places like Lucia Mar where they kind of shrug their shoulders and yeah, you know. They run a lack system that lets predators get into the system.
speaker-1: How is this child doing now? And how is the family and where is this case?
speaker-0: This is an ongoing case that's coming up for trial in the spring. So it's been going on for a few years now. ⁓ look, all these victims are, it's devastating. Sexual abuse, we all know it's devastating and can have, you know, and does have massive adverse effects on kids and adults. So this particular girl is she's doing okay, you know. I mean, but she's She's a warrior and she's gonna see through this case to the end, just like almost all of my clients. They are empowered by these lawsuits and they want justice and they wanna see change and and they're phenomenal witnesses and they're very inspirational.
speaker-1: I don't want to focus on the perpetrators or the schools who screwed up anymore. Let's talk about the victims. What do these cases, both Chelsea's and the Lucia Marr case, tell you about the resilience of victims and what have you learned from victims by taking these cases?
speaker-0: These young men and women who come forward are are are amazing because they know what they're getting into. They know litigation is difficult and they're willing to do it because they truly want to gain closure. And that's that's really one of the only ways they can do it. One of the few ways to get answers to get closure, to turn the tables on the school is is to file a lawsuit and go after the school. And so I'm telling you, these victims are so compelling when they give testimony and they are incredibly resilient. And somehow they they battle through to the end and and they come out on top most of the time.
speaker-1: Dave, I think that's about all the time we have for today, but I want to give you one last chance to to give any last thoughts on this.
speaker-0: You one thing I want to say is is because when we talk about these topics and they're very disturbing, and let's face it, the vast majority of professionals out there are are great and they have zero instinct to ever harm a child ever. But let's face it, you know, if you're a pedophile, where do you go? You go where the kids are. And so you're gonna try to get a job at a school or at a youth sports or or some other place where there's a lot of kids. And so, you know. It only takes a few of those pedophiles to infiltrate the system, and they can cause devastating harm to many, many kids and families. And that's why our schools have to do a better job of guarding against that. So this isn't an indictment against all these great teachers out there. But let's face it, we all know there's gonna be. Bad people who try to get into those organizations so they can do harm, and that's what we have to guard against.
speaker-1: All great points. Dave, thank you so much for this incredible conversation and for joining us today. Thanks to our listeners for listening into another episode. As always, we will put the website for Dave's law firm, Taylor and Ring, in the show notes. So please make sure to check them out. And thank you again for listening to another episode of Parallel Justice. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. Again, we know the topics discussed can be difficult and may be emotionally triggering. Support is available at victimconnect.org through call, text, or chat. We encourage you to take time today to learn about your rights and options that are available to you. Building safer communities requires every one of us to take action. Visit victimsofrime.org to learn more. And check out our show notes for today's speakers' information. This podcast was created by the National Center for Victims of Crime in partnership with our center and affiliate, the National Crime Victim Bar Association, the nation's first professional association of attorneys and expert witnesses dedicated to helping victims seek justice through the civil justice system. To support this podcast, please visit victimsofrime.org/slash donate. Parallel Justice is produced by the National Center for Victims of Crime and written and hosted by me, Renee Williams.
speaker-1: Welcome to Parallel Justice. I'm Renee Williams, the CEO of the National Center for Victims of Crime, and your host for this series. Sometimes the criminal justice system fails to obtain justice for victims. This can occur when prosecutions end in acquittal or if the charges are not filed at all. Even following a conviction, victims of crime can be left with devastating damages. So what then is civil justice? Well, Crime victims can file civil lawsuits against offenders and other responsible parties regardless of the outcome of a criminal prosecution, or even if there was no prosecution at all. While money awarded in civil lawsuits will never fully compensate a victim for their trauma, it can be a valuable resource to help victims of crime rebuild their lives. And it is a powerful incentive to hold institutions, landlords, businessmen, and employers accountable. In this series, we look at civil justice through criminal acts and bring together diverse perspectives to tackle complex questions of accountability, justice, and healing. Parallel Justice is brought to you by the National Crime Victim Bar Association, a program of the National Center for Victims of Crime. More information about the National Center and the National Crime Victim Bar Association is available at victimsofrime.org. Please be advised, some of the topics we discuss may be disturbing. This podcast is intended for adult audiences only. While some of these topics may be triggering, we have resources available to help you practice good self-care and seek support. Confidential, compassionate support is available via call, text, or chat at victimconnect.org. The views expressed in the following podcast are those of our guests, who are experts in these areas. Their opinions are invaluable, however, they do not necessarily reflect the views of the National Center for Victims of Crime. We acknowledge that some of these views may be controversial. However, our goal in these discussions is to raise awareness of victims' rights and the options available to them. Please enjoy the podcast. Welcome back to another Parallel Justice. I'm your host, Renee Williams. And joining me today, we have a very special guest, Dave Ring. Dave, welcome to Parallel Justice. Thanks for joining us for today's show. I want to get started by having you start by introducing yourself. Who are you? What do you do? Where do you practice? Tell us about you.
speaker-0: Well, thank you for having me, Renee. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here. My name's Dave Ring. I am a lawyer in Los Angeles, and my firm is Taylor and Ring. And that firm's been in existence for 20 years, but I've been a lawyer for 30 years. And for the vast majority of that time, a great part of my law practice has been representing victims of sexual assault and sexual abuse. And I've represented children as young as age six. And I've represented adults as old as in their their 50s who brought cases back from when they were children or even when they were adults. So I've gone represented the full spectrum of victims. And it's a practice that ⁓ it's very emotional, it's very stressful, but ultimately it's a very rewarding. practice because I think our I do and my law firm brings this sense of justice to these victims once they get through the cases and and they they gain a sense of power back from these cases. So that's just a little bit about me.
speaker-1: And we're here today to talk specifically about abuse in schools because you are one of the preeminent attorneys in the countries that takes these cases on. So speaking broadly, how common is abuse in schools and how many cases have you represented?
speaker-0: The sad fact is that it's way too common. It's and even now, even in 2021, it's just happens too much. I I've told this to other people, you know, the first case I did was back in the mid-1990s. And it was a teacher who molested a fifth grade boy. And my law partner at the time and I, we got this tremendous verdict after a jury trial. And I turned to my law partner, you know, within the few days after as I go, you know. I mean, that was a great result, but these cases are not going to last because it's got to be the number one priority for schools to make sure this never happens again. And I said that back in the 90s. And I go, these cases are going to go away. Schools are going to clean up their act. Well, here we are in 2021. And it's as big a problem as it's ever been. And it's and it's very frustrating. It's sad. So, but the reality is it's all too common.
speaker-1: And I think you bring up a good point. These cases, especially in the late 90s, were highly publicized. And even though we're going to talk about two young women today who were abused, what we saw in the 90s and what got publicized most often was young men being abused who were teenagers by their 20-year-old teachers. And those were the cases that really made the headlines. But there are a lot more cases that are still happening today.
speaker-0: I have represented every type of kid you can imagine: boy, girl, Val Victorian of the high school, all the way down to the kid who's struggling and barely gets by with grades, the best athlete at the school to a kid who's a loner. Every type of kid is vulnerable to being abused. And it's not about their parents or how they are brought up or their personality. It's about predators who target. certain vulnerable victims. And they run the gambit.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And you've had, as you mentioned, several cases. You've had several high profile cases that I'd like to start unpacking. Too specifically, I'd like to talk about the Marlborough case and the Lucia Maher case. Let's start with Marlborough first. There were a lot of girls involved in this case, but I really want to specifically talk about your client Chelsea. Can you give everybody an overview of what happened?
speaker-0: So Marlborough School is one of the most prestigious and elite private high schools in California. It's in Los Angeles. It's an all-girls school. It's the oldest private high school in Los Angeles. And it's it's very well known. You have a very, you know, wealthy families whose kids attend there, very high profile, the entertainment business, just all sorts of well-known names who kids attend there. And it's a great school. But they had a big problem. They had a male English teacher who was there for about 14 years who was sexually harassing, sexually assaulting, and engaging in sex with female students. And they had plenty of complaints and notice about it, and they really did nothing about it. And ultimately, after about 14 years, it came to a head and became well publicized because one girl went finally to the police. I ended up representing a girl named Chelsea. Who had been victimized early on by this teacher whose name is Mr. Ketters. And Chelsea ⁓ was very courageous throughout the case. You know, it took a lot for her to come forward. And she saw this civil lawsuit all the way through. And the result was, you know, some amazing changes that were made at that school.
speaker-1: Now we always hear that there's usually a grooming process in any type of child sex abuse, whether it be in the church, in schools, in Boy Scouts, most predators have a process they use to groom. Did ketters in this case have a consistent MO?
speaker-0: He did, and every perpetrator does, and it depends on the age of the victim. And grooming is really another word for conditioning, for gaining trust. And so, you know, we're going to talk about another case where the victim was young, you know, nine years old. And there's a different technique that these pedophiles use for someone that young. But with teenagers, men or or boys or girls in high school, and particularly in this case, this teacher was classic. classic in the way that he went about it with these girls. And so he was this English teacher. And remember, it's an all-girls school. And so he was the cool guy, the flashy guy. He is the guy who would cuss in the classroom. You know, he would try to gain these girls trust. And what he really did was he would target certain individuals who he knew were vulnerable. And he would then gain time with them alone. Hey, stay after class. Let's talk about this reading assignment. Hey, you know, why don't you come over here and let's go to lunch together and we'll talk about something about the, you know, the English class. He complimented the particular target a lot. That's a common practice. Compliments and gifts and making them feel special and all of that. And then what he did though, his tactic that he always used, he would introduce sex talk into the conversation by using literature. He would talk about some book that had some, you know, sexual themes in it. And he would do that to get these girls to start talking about sexual themes. And he would then use that to start talking about their own personal lives. And that's how he introduced sex into the conversations. And he would take it from there. He would then, you know, if he felt like he had a vulnerable target and they weren't resisting, next thing you know, he puts his hand on their leg or on their knee and he touches them on the back and he starts having very personal conversations with them. All this takes place over a few months. Next thing you know, he's kissing them and having sex with them. That's how these guys work.
speaker-1: And I like that you distinguish between how children are groomed versus how teenagers are groomed. There's actually a movie out right now that as you were talking, it reminded me of the documentary called What Haunts Us, which was about a teacher in South Carolina who is abusing young boys and what has happened to those young men. And I think there are going to be a lot of parallels within this story. We said there were lots of girls in this case. Chelsea was just one, and this went on for presumably 14 years. What were the adults doing in this case?
speaker-0: It's interesting because when you go back and look at it, there were plenty of warning signs, and there were specific complaints from parents. And what happened was the head of school was also a female who'd been the head of school for a long time. She was so enamored with Mr. Ketters. He was the star teacher. He could do no wrong. Every time she fielded a complaint, she minimized it, justified it, basically. Turned it around and blamed the student or said, ⁓ there's you're you're imagining this, and did nothing. And that just empowered Ketters even more because he knew that the administration wasn't going to take any complaints seriously. And they had some very, very specific complaints along the way that he was sexually harassing girls. And they literally minimized them and did nothing to him and let him continue. Now, why did they do that? They didn't want to believe it. They didn't want to have a scandal. They didn't want to confront him. They couldn't believe their star teacher would ever do such a thing. They were blinded by what they wanted to see, not what was right in front of them.
speaker-1: Did anybody ask them what the concept of a mandatory reporter meant to them?
speaker-0: ⁓ you know, just for people who don't know, anyone who works in education and and really in a lot of different fields that deal with children are mandated reporters of suspected abuse. And it could be physical abuse, verbal abuse, or sexual abuse. And if they have a suspicion, a reasonable suspicion, they have to report that suspicion to law enforcement. And they have a certain amount of time to do it. Here, the, you know, the administrators, their justification was, well, we didn't suspect. You know, we didn't think he was doing anything. And that's the problem, is that a lot of professionals in the field just go, Well, I didn't suspect anything. And when other folks look at it like, how could you not suspect anything? How could you not? Any reasonable person would suspect something. And so that's a real frustration in the field of education with people not fulfilling their mandated reporting requirements.
speaker-1: And I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but were criminal charges ever brought against the administrators for not reporting? No.
speaker-0: No, no, the the teacher himself was criminally convicted. It's unfortunate, but it is very, very rare to see criminal charges brought against administrators. And it's unfortunate because a lot of times they should be brought against administrators. And I think there's a lot of opportunities to do that sometimes, but it it just it rarely happens. So
speaker-1: Back to this specific case, was there a documented history of him abusing in other schools?
speaker-0: Well, so here's the interesting thing about Mr. Ketters. Before he went to Marlborough, he worked for one year at another very prestigious school here in the Los Angeles area. And at that school, he was fired, basically fired after one year for sexually harassing girls, for being in a fight with a male student, and for basically being completely unfit to be a teacher. Fired. You know, they said, We don't you're out of here. We don't want you here. You are just not what we want at this school. And so there was a document history, and you're thinking, Well, how could this guy ever get hired at Marlborough? One of the top schools around. How would they ever hire this guy given he got fired from a school the year before? Well, that's the problem. This other school, its name is Viewpoint. They just wanted to get rid of ketters. And the quickest, easiest. Most efficient way to do it is to go to Ketters and say, tell you what, Ketters, you know, you can either go away quietly and we'll help facilitate that, or we, you know, you can put up a fight and we'll ruin the rest of your career. So tell you what, you go apply to some other schools, go away from our school here at Viewpoint, and we'll give you a glowing letter of recommendation to help you find another job. And that's exactly what they did. They gave Marlborough not only a written glowing recommendation, which was totally false, but also a verbal recommendation on the phone from viewpoints head of school to Marlborough's head of school. Complete fabricated lies about what type of teacher Ketters was. Is one school with an with a problem teacher, a guy like Ketters, wants to get rid of him quickly and efficiently without making a big fuss about it, and they cut a deal. Like you go away quietly, we'll give you a letter of recommendation and go away. And they are taking an unfit teacher and passing him on to another unsuspecting school. And, you know, the second school usually calls the first school and says, hey, what do we need to know about this teacher? And they get fed a bunch of lies and they hire him. It's a huge problem, not just in private schools, but in public schools as well. And again, there's been some accountability on that. ⁓ we're we've tried to make that not happen anymore. And I've seen it where, you know, it has lessened over the years, but it still happens.
speaker-1: So how was Ketterer finally brought to justice? Was it just one survivor or did that bring about others sharing their experience with him?
speaker-0: ⁓ in all of these cases, the perpetrator gets away with it for a while. in Ketter's case, he got away with it for a long time, you know, 12, 13, 14 years. And then he picks the wrong victim. And by that I mean he picks the victim who not only is going to tell him, No, get your hands off me, but then they're going to go blow the whistle on him and their parents are backing them up along the way. And that's what happened in in Marlborough, is that this one. particular young lady, ⁓ her name's Michaela, she knew exactly what Ketters was trying to do with her. And she told her parents, parents came into the school, made continued to complain and complain. And the parents weren't going away. And they finally, you know, blew this story up. And basically it's fascinating. What happened was Michaela wrote a blog about it. She was in college at the time and wrote a blog about what had happened. And so that blog suddenly circulated among Marlborough's community. And boom, all of a sudden you had all these alumni who said, Me too. And they all came forward and it was pretty powerful.
speaker-1: Glad you brought that up with parents because we've seen a shift in the decades in parents believing their children. Whereas before with schools, with churches, parents didn't necessarily believe it. This case received quite a bit of media attention, including a Vanity Fair article, because of the prominence of Marlboro as a school. How do you think this case would have played out? If there were less affluent parents or a differently abled victim, do you think the outcome would have been the same? And do you think privilege intersects with justice somewhere?
speaker-0: ⁓ you know what? My answer is going to surprise you, I think. ⁓ I think it would have been the same result at a lot of different schools, whether it's a public school in the inner city or ⁓ a Marlboro that's a very wealthy school in a very nice part of town. And I say that because I always find that there are certain parents, no matter what their economic status is or anything like that, who get it. And the second they hear their kid saying, you know, the teacher did this to me or did that to me, that's it. They are going to the school, they're going to the police, and they are gonna get their justice. And so I truly believe that and I've rep I've I've sued every type of school imaginable, you know. ⁓ and so I I I don't think I hate, I don't think justice or wealth ⁓ impacts this. These types of cases. I think that it's across the board that you're gonna have certain parents and certain kids who come forward and are able to bring the school to its knees and bring the perpetrator to justice.
speaker-1: Now, do you think the case would have received the amount of media attention it had?
speaker-0: Well, look, this Marlboro case received a tremendous amount of media attention because it was Marlboro and very high profile school with very high profile alumni and parents. So absolutely ⁓ I agree with you that that the media attention that followed this case was unprecedented because it was a Marboro. And no, some other school in New York City would never have attracted that type of media attention. So in that sense, it absolutely raised the profile of the case. The fact that the media was covering it, the LA Times, Vanity Fair was on the news, national news, that raised the profile tremendously and it and it put a lot of pressure on the school to ultimately do the right thing.
speaker-1: Where is this case now?
speaker-0: ⁓ this case was a few years old. And so it went in litigation for several years. And then on the eve of trial, it was resolved. Marlborough resolved the case. And the other thing that Marlborough did that's always really important to me as a lawyer, along the way, they had a new head of school come in. And that new head of school enacted a lot of new policies and procedures about sexual harassment and ⁓ teacher student interaction and things like that that were not in place. And she also did like outreach to the victims and she did all sorts of things that really helped bring closure to these victims. So it wasn't just a monetary settlement. It was true change at this school. And I I was, you know, very complimentary of her at the end of the case because I was impressed with what this new head of school did. More schools should do that. It was impressive.
speaker-1: Think that's an important part of this podcast, and the reason we called it parallel justice. Sometimes the criminal justice system does not approach what it's meant to approach, and justice is limited through that. Even in the civil justice system, sometimes justice is limited, but parallel justice is supposed to be a victim-centered approach to crime and harm that works with the justice system, independent from the criminal justice system, but with it, and a lot of times the outcomes. Are these policies that keep people safe?
speaker-0: Absolutely. I mean, the criminal justice system is aimed at putting the perpetrator in jail. I mean, let's face it. That's that's the ultimate goal. And the civil justice system has a lot broader reach to be a little bit more creative to try to bring about change. And so, you know, my law firm prides itself on sure, we want to do what's best for the client and obtain the largest settlement we can for them because they've been so dramatically harmed. But at the same time, we want to try to bring about change in some of these schools. And we can't force that upon them, but we can certainly try to negotiate and put pressure on them to make changes that really protect kids.
speaker-1: And I think that's one of the most important distinctions between clients that I hear about that come through the Crime Victim Bar Association is most of the time they're not concerned about the monetary amount. They almost uniformly and always say, I just want this to not happen to another person. I just want to protect other people.
speaker-0: That's a huge reason why you see victims ultimately come forward is because they'll either have, let's assume in in this Marlborough case, ⁓ you know, Chelsea did not come forward for a long time. And then when this other girl, Michaela, came forward years later and said, Here's what this creepy teacher is doing, Chelsea knew she had to come forward then. And it was critical that she did because there's strength in numbers. And, you know, anytime More victims come forward, boy, it's there you go. It's hard for the perpetrators to say, ⁓ this is just a coincidence. You know, he said, she said. But when you have multiple victims all saying the same thing and they don't even know each other, that's very powerful, very powerful. So, you know, these victims coming forward, it takes a lot of courage to do that. There's a lot of ramifications for doing that. But ultimately, in my experience at least, they have it's been a While it's a challenging experience to to bring a case, it's also incredibly rewarding and empowering.
speaker-1: I want to unpack it's Lucia, right? Okay. I want to unpack the Lucia Mahr case. But before I do that, I really think it's important to address the disability rights movement in this country and the challenges that are specific to individuals with disabilities and their resiliency. A 2018 survey published by the Journal of Intellectual Disability Research found that nearly 30% of people with
speaker-0: Yeah, the CMR School District.
speaker-1: mild or moderate intellectual disability have experienced a sexual assault? That's a scary number. In your experience in seeking justice for victims and survivors of sexual abuse in schools, especially in schools with kids for disabilities, who is generally believed?
speaker-0: There's no greater vulnerable student than the student who has special needs. That is an incredibly vulnerable kid. And it's insanely sad when an adult takes advantage of a special needs child in a way to engage in sexual misconduct and sexual abuse. And I think it's very easy for school officials to ⁓ not believe special needs students, to say, well, you know, they're they're not quite. articulate enough or we're not really clear what they're saying or boy, they're inconsistent on these particular points. It's too easy to dismiss them.
speaker-1: I want to have a conversation specifically for parents and students who might be listening to this. Civil justice is not a silver bullet, and there are a lot of ramifications that victims should know about and special challenges that survivors of abuse might face when they come forward. Do you want to talk about some of the challenges your clients have faced, such as depositions not being believed? Time that's passed, what what the usual playbook is of these schools fighting.
speaker-0: Yeah, look, let's face it, litigation is brutal. Litigation is brutal. And it's really brutal and can be if you're a victim of sexual abuse. These schools they'll go out and they hire law firms. And these law firms, ⁓ they say all the right things, but when you get down and dirty in the litigation, they blame the victim. They blame the victim's parents. They put the victim through the ringer by having these. All day depositions. They have the victim go see a psychologist who's hired by the defense, who's been hired to say that there's no repercussions, the person's fine, they're malingering. I mean, they get put through the ringer. It's my job as a lawyer to make sure that doesn't happen. And I think my law firm is very good at ⁓ kind of quashing all of those tactics, but those tactics are out there. And so litigation is tough. The criminal process is tough. Just going through the criminal part of the case can be extremely tough because of the delays and the uncertainty and it's and the confusion on on what's really taken place in the criminal arena. So these victims and their parents, they go through a lot to get to reach the finish line. But they get there. It's not easy, but they get there. And, you know, usually the vast majority of them say, I'm glad I did it. It's the only way I was gonna get closure and bring change.
speaker-1: And what advice would you give for parents to look for in their students? And I think that this can be broken out into several different students, the teenage students who are experiencing vastly different things from the students with disabilities. What should parents be looking for?
speaker-0: I'd say if we're talking about younger kids, let's say, you know, age 12 and younger, I think the most important thing is is is if a child ever even hints that a teacher is doing something inappropriate, even if they just give a little hint that something might be off, you absolutely have to believe them. That's the kid's one chance saying, I'm gonna float this out there and see if someone believes me. And if they get shut down the first time they say it's in now, no, you're just You're just imagining things, they're not gonna come forward again. So I think the first thing you gotta do is because we all wanna say, no, there's no way that's happening, not with this teacher who I know, who I've who I've I've talked to. No way. So the first thing is you gotta believe your kid the second they say it, because like we talked about, it's the rare kid who makes it up. So I think if you're a parent, you know, if you even get a whiff that a teacher or a coach is communicating with your kid at night or on the weekends for no apparent reason. That is a a massive red flag that should be looked into further.
speaker-1: And I think we need to say it loudly and unequivocally. It is never the child's fault.
speaker-0: Ever. I'll repeat it. It is never, ever, ever the child's fault. You gotta I mean, who would think that? These are these are kids. Look, for younger kids, no one ever thinks that. But I'll tell you what, there's a subset out there who, if you're fifteen or sixteen or seventeen, ⁓ that that kid knows what they're doing. No, they don't. Yeah, well, they're not those kids who are anyone who has a teenager knows that those kids are not in a position to make adult
speaker-1: Okay, Laterno case.
speaker-0: Decisions like that. And again, it comes back to the concept of grooming. And grooming is simply a massive form of manipulation. The teacher who's in a position of authority, who has access to your child as a student and who has control over them because they can tell them what to do or how where to be for school, they can manipulate that kid and manipulate their vulnerabilities to get that kid to submit. To sexual misconduct. So it is never, ever the minor's fault. And anyone who suggests that should just be ostracized because it's outrageous to ever even suggest that. I'll tell you what, California enacted a law several years ago because defense lawyers would come in and try to blame the victim. California enact a law said you are absolutely not allowed to introduce any evidence in a case, in a civil case, where you try to blame the victim for being sexually abused.
speaker-1: I think that is a tremendous piece of legislation. Is there any other legislative efforts that you know of or that you think could happen that could help turn the tide of this?
speaker-0: You know, I think boy, it is it is truly an epidemic. And so I I think it all comes down to these organizations doing what they've already been, what they know they have to do. There are so many laws that are in place to make sure that adults are not able to molest kids, whether it's in school, youth sports, other youth activities, churches, what have you. And so now it's truly down to other adults, other employees who have to recognize it and have to be willing to report it because it's always recognizable. You know, why is that teacher always alone in their classroom with the door closed with that particular female student? I've seen it now 10 times. Well, why don't you report it then? Because that's your job. You know it's wrong. You know something suspicious is going on. Why don't you report it? And sure, we don't want to turn our world into a snitch world, but that's not snitching. That's protecting kids. So that's how I think we have to bring this to an end is to raise the awareness among everyone in jobs where they work with kids to keep an eye out and follow the rules. And people have to enforce the rules. They try to, of course, try to hide their records. And the background checks are not done competently and they sneak into the system. And there you go, you now got a predator among kids.
speaker-1: I mean, I'm just thinking I volunteer with kids a lot, and every single year that I want to do a new volunteer job, I have to do act thirty three, thirty-four clearance every year.
speaker-0: You bring up a good point. You know, there are hey, look, there are certain schools and organizations out there that they do this right. They are great at it. They follow the rules and they're very vigilant at making sure everyone has, you know, done the background check and done the formal interviews, and they really are good at at keeping predators out of the system. And then there's other places like Lucia Mar where they kind of shrug their shoulders and yeah, you know. They run a lack system that lets predators get into the system.
speaker-1: How is this child doing now? And how is the family and where is this case?
speaker-0: This is an ongoing case that's coming up for trial in the spring. So it's been going on for a few years now. ⁓ look, all these victims are, it's devastating. Sexual abuse, we all know it's devastating and can have, you know, and does have massive adverse effects on kids and adults. So this particular girl is she's doing okay, you know. I mean, but she's She's a warrior and she's gonna see through this case to the end, just like almost all of my clients. They are empowered by these lawsuits and they want justice and they wanna see change and and they're phenomenal witnesses and they're very inspirational.
speaker-1: I don't want to focus on the perpetrators or the schools who screwed up anymore. Let's talk about the victims. What do these cases, both Chelsea's and the Lucia Marr case, tell you about the resilience of victims and what have you learned from victims by taking these cases?
speaker-0: These young men and women who come forward are are are amazing because they know what they're getting into. They know litigation is difficult and they're willing to do it because they truly want to gain closure. And that's that's really one of the only ways they can do it. One of the few ways to get answers to get closure, to turn the tables on the school is is to file a lawsuit and go after the school. And so I'm telling you, these victims are so compelling when they give testimony and they are incredibly resilient. And somehow they they battle through to the end and and they come out on top most of the time.
speaker-1: Dave, I think that's about all the time we have for today, but I want to give you one last chance to to give any last thoughts on this.
speaker-0: You one thing I want to say is is because when we talk about these topics and they're very disturbing, and let's face it, the vast majority of professionals out there are are great and they have zero instinct to ever harm a child ever. But let's face it, you know, if you're a pedophile, where do you go? You go where the kids are. And so you're gonna try to get a job at a school or at a youth sports or or some other place where there's a lot of kids. And so, you know. It only takes a few of those pedophiles to infiltrate the system, and they can cause devastating harm to many, many kids and families. And that's why our schools have to do a better job of guarding against that. So this isn't an indictment against all these great teachers out there. But let's face it, we all know there's gonna be. Bad people who try to get into those organizations so they can do harm, and that's what we have to guard against.
speaker-1: All great points. Dave, thank you so much for this incredible conversation and for joining us today. Thanks to our listeners for listening into another episode. As always, we will put the website for Dave's law firm, Taylor and Ring, in the show notes. So please make sure to check them out. And thank you again for listening to another episode of Parallel Justice. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. Again, we know the topics discussed can be difficult and may be emotionally triggering. Support is available at victimconnect.org through call, text, or chat. We encourage you to take time today to learn about your rights and options that are available to you. Building safer communities requires every one of us to take action. Visit victimsofrime.org to learn more. And check out our show notes for today's speakers' information. This podcast was created by the National Center for Victims of Crime in partnership with our center and affiliate, the National Crime Victim Bar Association, the nation's first professional association of attorneys and expert witnesses dedicated to helping victims seek justice through the civil justice system. To support this podcast, please visit victimsofrime.org/slash donate. Parallel Justice is produced by the National Center for Victims of Crime and written and hosted by me, Renee Williams.
