Episode 9: Dene Halatau

Matt Attard: How you coped with that mentally? Was it something that you struggled with, or did you just get on with things? I got injured in round 19 or 20 and ⁓ a guy you might have heard of, Josh Jackson took my spot, right? Josh goes on to become a representative player and he's a gun. And ⁓ I couldn't get back in the side that year. So we go through to the grand final and I'm 18th man through every finals game. It's a really weird spot to be in at 18th man because you feel a part of the team and you feel like you're close to the success, but you're not ultimately on the field. That would have been a really difficult period mentally for you to get through. I broke down chatting with her at this cabinet. And and it was about just the inability for me to be on the field and these repeated injuries and I didn't access any health support there, like any mental health support at that time, but I probably wish I had of. I just think it would have helped shorten that period of of feeling low and feeling like Welcome to Pac Mentality, the Canterbury Banksdown Bulldogs podcast, where we chat all about footy, mindset, and life inside the pack. We're a proud Bulldogs in Business partner. Thank you to Andrew Towner and the team at Bulldogs in Business. Very happy to be a part of that. We're filming here at Sync Studios in Bella Vista. Professional crew here. Mina, Glauco, thank you guys. Great job, as always. ⁓ I'm Matt Adar, joined by Josh Ayun, here alongside a former Bulldog Tigers and New Zealand International, Dean Hallitau. Dean, 69 games for the Bulldogs. ⁓ what have got here? ⁓ 180 for West Tigers. Great to have you on. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me on, guys. Looking forward to the chat. It's awesome. ⁓ so just quickly catch us up on what you've been doing lately. Are you still involved in the game and and media, yeah? Yeah, yeah. I was still ⁓ I'm still heavily involved in the rugby league. It's pretty much my life. I ⁓ I work at the NRL. ⁓ I've been working at the NRL since I finished playing ⁓ in 2016. ⁓ very fortunate that I I've got a career in the game beyond my playing days. ⁓ and I also do radio for the ABC. So I'll cover games most weeks. ⁓ probably one or two games a weekend. ⁓ work alongside some some pretty good people and ⁓ the ABC is a great, great network to work for and in in their rugby league coverage. Obviously led by Andrew Moore, who's a weapon, he's a gun, but ⁓ the broader team, all really good people. How's he going now, Andrew? He's doing well. He's doing really well, yeah. He ⁓ obviously had a health scare. not not just a scare as a a a a big health issue last year and ⁓ thankfully for ⁓ for andrew and his family and for all of us that that work alongside him ⁓ you know he pulled through and ⁓ it's a pr it's a pretty harrowing story when you hear him tell it and ⁓ it's it's ⁓ you know it's amazing that he was able to To survive what he went through and ⁓ you know, he's he's doing his thing on the radio again, which is ⁓ which is awesome. Yeah, iconic voice. Yeah, he's great. Yeah. I'm I'm I I'm pretty sure I'm safe in saying that the two thousand and four premiership highlights DVD, I think he narrated it. ⁓ really? So his voice is very watched it a more million times. A million times. ⁓ so yeah, look, Dean, one thing we talk about here on PAC Mentality is mental health. That's the main focus that we like to go from, the angle that we like to go from. Talking to players about their journey and and their mental health battles over the time. So the idea of that pack mentality is that you don't do things alone. ⁓ you know, you look out for the person next year and if someone's really struggling the the pack can step in. So ⁓ footy can be tough mentally, life away from footy can be really tough. This space is for, you know, honest conversation and and you know, help maybe help someone that might be listening, but who do you turn to in those moments where you're really struggling? Who did you turn to in your playing career and and now? Yeah, look, I I've been I've actually been with my wife ⁓ now for nearly twenty years, or over twenty years I should say. And ⁓ so obviously ⁓ Being my partner and the person that I'm spending spend the most time with ⁓ while I was still playing, we we were together for a a large part of my career. So someone that I could often talk to about ⁓ some of the things I was feeling and and and going through. Not not so much on a on a football level. She understands the game, but not talking about specifically football stuff, but more around general life and ⁓ I guess some of the challenges having performance-wise and where my mindset was at the time ⁓ would have been really helpful ⁓ to to bounce things off her. That being said, I probably did keep things inside quite a bit and ⁓ it's something that ⁓ blokes tend to do. But as a football player, ⁓ you know, you sort of internalize a lot of things around your performance, around your place in the team, around contracts and and all that sort of thing. And ⁓ often I would, yeah, try and deal with it myself and try and manage that so I'd put stress on her about our lives and about what my football career might mean for for us as a as a family. But ⁓ she was definitely someone that that was always there to support me and ⁓ would always ⁓ lend an ear. When I was playing like my teammates send my teammates, there was ⁓ always guys that I sort of respected and and had ⁓ you know a lot of time for in terms of their their sort of life wisdom. First first guy was a Tigers team out of mine, Mark O'Neill, who I often talk about. And, you know, Mark was a a good leader of men. He was also someone that understood what it meant to be a professional first grader. He understood what it what it meant to to turn up every day and be a professional, j not just a full timer, but a professional. And so he taught me a lot about about what that was like and and what it looked like and and how to walk and talk it every day. But he also gave me some some good advice around being, you know, what it To be a man and be a good person away from the field as well. So ⁓ he was probably my first real mentor as a as a player. And I know that when I had decisions to make or when things were difficult, he was someone that I could trust that I could bounce ideas off. And and I did actually, he was one of the guys I spoke to when I decided to change clubs and go to the dogs. ⁓ he was a big influence in that, just the honest conversation that he had with me. So someone I still I still chat to him regularly now, and we we catch up when we can, and ⁓ I respect his his opinion a lot, but also trust him enough to. Have open combos with him. Yep. And being in the NRL and around that environment now, do you find that there's a lot more support for guys, a lot more support for players these days? I think there's definitely an awareness around, ⁓ you know, it's it's it's okay to have conversations about where you might be at mentally. ⁓ I used to work in the wellbeing and education team when I first finished playing. So the role itself was around wellbeing ⁓ programs, but ⁓ a large part of the work was around providing support networks and and ⁓ avenues for players to. to access that that support. So ⁓ I think the awareness of it, the fact that there are services available ⁓ is is known to players, but it's still that crossing that that bridge sort of breaking down the stigma around if if I go and speak to someone, what does that mean for me selection wise? What does that mean for me contract wise? What does that mean for me in terms of what my teammates might think of me on the field? Do they can they trust me if I'm going through some things? I I I think that's definitely changed a lot. Yeah. ⁓ and I think the as I said, those services and the and the awareness of those services is ⁓ is is better than what I what been in probably the last thirty years. Yeah, fantastic. And yeah, ⁓ you've been in Australia a long time. I think you were born in New Zealand but you moved here when you were four? Yep. Is that right? Yeah that's right. Yeah. Yep. So you you've spent a majority of your life in Australia now and and obviously rugby league had a huge role in shaping the person you are. So how how much of rugby league is is a part of you? personally now and i is it your still your entire life? Do you think you'd be the person you are now without rugby league? ⁓ definitely wouldn't be the person I am without rugby league. It taught me a lot about ⁓ again about growing up, about being a a a a good person. ⁓ and it gave me a living. It gave me ⁓ it probably introduced me to my to my wife and to my you know obviously got a I've got a family, I've three kids and ⁓ it's taken me where I'm at now. So ⁓ without rugby league I don't know what to be doing and I'm forever grateful that I got the opportunity to play it as a ⁓ as a professional and for a for a career. and now I work in the game, obviously. So I was a fan of the game when I was a kid, loved it, watched it. ⁓ my whole family were rugby league fans and ⁓ It was a a bit of a pinch me moment when I when I first got to play ⁓ NRL and then, you know, to to get through 14 seasons and then to work in the game post it. I get to go to some really big events and matches now, ⁓ which is a big benefit of working at the NRL. ⁓ but also something that I'm again grateful for and I love the game. I've changed my sort of view of rugby league since I've finished. Like when you're in the game, there's a lot around your performance and around ⁓ Try to turn up every week and play your best and be picked in the team to get recontracted, all those sorts of things. There's all that pressure around like rugby league as a performance. now that I'm finished, I'm back to being rugby league as as a fan and and and I love watching the skill that's on display with the players these days, ⁓ you know, the ⁓ the athleticism, ⁓ physicality, rugby league's so physical. For anyone that says rugby league is soft because of heightened rules and and what and whatever, the game is very, very hard to challenge anyone to get out in the field with the athletes that are out there now. Now, run straight into a a legitimate legal tackle and not feel that through the whole part of your body. You know, it's it's a tough sport. And ⁓ I've got a lot of respect for the athletes that play the game, both men's and women's at the moment. It's like it's just climbing up and up every year. Yeah, how do you view the current game? ⁓ you know, the in terms of how much it's changed since you played and also the emergence of the the women's game. Yeah, ⁓ the game is is sped up significantly. I think I I think every generation thinks the game's faster. Yep. But then as you get a bit older you start romanticising old football and you think that it was better when you you look back. But ⁓ rose coloured glasses, right? You always think that it's better in your memory. ⁓ yeah. Like I said, I think the game is is played by some really phenomenal athletes with great skill and it's really entertaining. ⁓ obviously there's been changes made by the people that I work for, ⁓ around the way the game's played and the rules and interpretations and whatnot. But ⁓ I I I still turn up every week to games or watch watch on TV at home and and think that the skill level that's on display is is just continually getting better and better. It's insane. The athletes we have in our game, they're second to none. What they can do, what they can cop in terms of the defense and the attack as well. Yeah. They they're they're the incredible athletes. They are and and I think if you think about ath like athletes from all different sports, I I I think rugby league is one of the most probably challenging from like a whole range of different like fitness demands, right? Like there's there's the endurance part of it, there's the strength part of it, no doubt. The power, the speed, ⁓ agility. ⁓ there's got to be ⁓ you know, a lot of thought into how you structure a game, ⁓ reaction. Like there's so many different parts of rugby league that that other sports I don't think can touch. Yeah, 100%. Now two thousand and five, we we we better talk about that fairy tale premiership. You're a part of that team and that squad. Take us back. What do you remember? ⁓ look, it was a great time, obviously. We ⁓ we had a lot of success and ended up lifting the trophy, which was the ultimate for for any young regard league player that wants to ⁓ play at the professional level to to lift the the premiership trophy is is the ultimate dream. And ⁓ we had a great season in terms of ⁓ personnel turnover. We didn't have a lot of injuries that year. And and anyone that's been a part of a premiership winning squad will say we kept a a a team, like a similar team on the field as much as possible for that season. It's it's rare that you get ⁓ successful years. That have had a high turnover of players. There's definitely been times when it's happened, but generally if you've got a real fit, resilient squad, then you, you, you'll go further. ⁓ we we worked really hard as a group together off ⁓ away from away from the games. We we we had like an extras board that we had up a train, and this has been spoken about a few times by my old team, Tigers teammates, and Yeah, this this extras board was everyone's name, a whole bunch of grids throughout the week. You'd go up and you'd write on each day something that you did that was above and beyond what you're, you know, programmed to do with with our training. And that was full almost every week. There was like something that someone was doing every week that had ⁓ you know, the aim of getting you better as a player. And ⁓ that I think built a lot of trust in each other and ⁓ it definitely built better performances. And we we had that absolute belief that the man next to me, the man on the other side of me, was was doing that a little bit extra to be better and and like I said it translated to performances. So it was a great time. I remember being out ⁓ after the the grand final celebrating as you do and I bumped into ⁓ a few of the dogs boys from ⁓ four and we we don't we'd only been like maybe the w ⁓ the week following the game and ⁓ we were having a few ⁓ drinks out one night at establishment in the city and ⁓ yeah these ⁓ I think it was r it might have been Rennie and and and Sunny and and they ⁓ come and had a had a bit of a drink with us and they just said how good is it to win a premiership or they you know we had our rings on, we're showing off and layering up a bit. But but yeah they just said how good is it to to win a premiership and obviously they'd just done it the year before and ⁓ you know it's hard to hard to put into words but it was ⁓ a a really special time. Well being that you were so young And so early in your career winning that premiership, did it ⁓ create any expectations that were difficult to live up to? Yeah, yeah, my word it did. we ⁓ there was a few old guys in our squad, John Scandal. I shouldn't disrespect him to say that too. Hold about John Scandalis, older than you, but Mark O'Neill, a guy I mentioned before. ⁓ you know, those guys had had been doing their best for a long time in in both com one coming from West, one one coming from Baalmain, guys like that. ⁓ and it took them to though I nearly thirty to win a premiership. And you know, they had 10 year careers, 12 year careers in the game at by that point. ⁓ and we were, you know, 20, 21, I was twenty-two at the time that there's a lot of boys in that sort of early twenties age group and we just thought it was gonna happen every year. We go, how good was this? We just we had the formula, we did what was required, we won a premiership and we got good plays here. We're gonna do it. We're just gonna keep doing it. So you get that idea in your head that it's not that hard, even though like I said before with the extras and and all of that, it it was a lot of work that went into it. ⁓ We didn't make the eight the f the following year. So ⁓ you know, it was a a pretty big ⁓ reality check on on, you know, if you slip for a moment and you're the the reigning premier, so everyone's chasing you as well, as the dogs experienced in no five as well. So yeah, there was an expectation that another one would come around pretty soon and ⁓ for me it never did. I never got another another chance to play. Do you remember ⁓ how you dealt with that? How how you coped with that mentally? Was it something that that you struggled with or did you just get on with things and and No, You get towards the end of your career and you and and for me, I finished when I was 33. So I won a premiership at 22. So 11 years later I'm finishing. I'm going, man, I never got chance to do that again. And ⁓ there's a weird thing when you see, like say 2012 is a is a an example, right? So I'm I'm in the squad at the dogs and I had a really enjoyable year. Like I played some of the best footy I've ever played. I got injured in round 19 or 20 and ⁓ a guy who you might have heard of, Josh Jackson, took my spot, right? And Josh goes on to become a representative. Player and he's a gun. And ⁓ I couldn't get back in the side that year. So we go through to the grand final and I'm 18th man through every finals game and into the grand final. It's a really weird spot to be in at 18th man because you feel a part of the team and you feel like you're close to the success, but you're not ultimately on the field when when you know the game's on. So And I suppose you'd genuinely be happy for the team or your teammates. Yeah for Josh. You want to win, you're happy for your teammates because and and Josh is a fantastic. guy he was a he was a one of the him him and Dale came through at the same time and yeah one of those guys where you know they're destined for success. You know they deserve it because they're like really good human beings and they work really hard. Good country boys, good values guys and like two warriors you got all those things that you're really help happy for and but you're still not a part like you're not inside that game day and that that being on the field kind of thing. So ⁓ that that is hard to sort of deal with. And we didn't win the the grand final that year and then I left the club in At the end of 13, went back to the tigers for 14, and they made the GF in 14, obviously, and ⁓ weren't able to lift the trophy on that time either. So yeah, it it is like It's a weird thing, you get like somewhat jealous of other teammates or, you know, mates you've had that go on ⁓ just generally other teams that go on and win grand finals. Yeah. Yeah. I I live in in the Shire ⁓ in Cranullah and twenty sixteen when they won it, I I'm like faced with the shark this is the year I retire as well. It's just sharks overload everywhere. My kids are dropping at school, it's up up Cranolla on the school bell and stuff like that. And I was just over it. I was I was getting like just done with the sharks love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had a couple of mates playing for them, like Mick Ennis and Chris Hyinton that we're playing from. So happy for those two boys, but I was mighty like yeah, pretty jealous of the fact that they went on to win and it was just everywhere. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I and I I mentioned earlier that you were born in New Zealand but you came over at a very young age, but you actually ended up representing New Zealand at the World Cup. ⁓ another game where I was eighteenth man in the grand final. yeah. I didn't want to mention it, but I'm glad you did. Yeah. No, that's it's it's it's worth talking about. Like you were there. ⁓ but but I mean, what did it mean? to you to wear that Kiwis jersey given that you had been in Australia for a lot longer, but it's still obviously part of you, it's your culture. Yeah. So when I was watching test football when I was a kid As I said, we're a footy family and we always sat down to watch test matches and my dad would always support the Kiwis. Like no matter what. We were a Kiwis family and we supported the Kiwis and and I've still got my New Zealand passport. I ⁓ I haven't become a citizen of Australia. As much as I love and consider myself ⁓ you know, Australian, I still have my Kiwi passport. I've held onto that since I was a kid and that might change at some point, but ⁓ I I just felt like I was always A Kiwi, I always wanted to to play for the Kiwis and ⁓ when I got the opportunity it was it was pretty special. There's a weird ⁓ even though I've grown up here in Australia, like because of my parents, I felt very familiar and at home when I joined the Kiwi team. Like when I went into camp, I was a bit nervous because I I I felt like yeah, I was a an Aussie that was, you know playing for a for a team full of Kiwis that were genuine Kiwis felt like maybe a little bit out of place, a bit odd. But they were ⁓ really accepting and and and it felt so familiar to me. So ⁓ it was special to represent the Kiwis. ⁓ my first test match against England was in England in 2004. ⁓ the Tigers flew my mum and dad over to watch that that game. So ⁓ I remember looking over at the Anthem. They literally flew in touchdown trained a hotel hotel taxi to the game and were there for me at the start of the game. So ⁓ looking out and seeing them when the anthem was on was ⁓ was pretty special, ⁓ pretty cool moment. It'd been amazing. Yeah. Now you spoke as well about before when you when you left the Tigers and you came over to the Bulldog ⁓ to the Bulldogs. What was happening in your career then mentally, emotionally, on the field as well, that made you make that change and think, well, okay, I'm gonna go to a new club. I I I'm guessing you probably never wanted to leave the Tigers. Was it a case of that or you did want to leave? No, I I'd I'd gotten to a point where I felt like I wasn't playing really good footy at all. I was stressed every week about getting picked. I was ⁓ my performances weren't weren't high. ⁓ well as high as I wanted them to be. And ⁓ I felt like maybe I'd gotten a little bit stale, like at the club and ⁓ more reflection on me rather than anything else. I just I didn't feel like I was performing at at the level that I that I should and I I felt that I could perform at. ⁓ again, I had that conversation, I had a conversation with Mark O'Neill around and he'd well and truly left the club at that point, but around, you know, what I should do and The dogs thing came up really late. I'd almost agreed to terms with the Tigers. Like I'd almost gotten across the line to stay on for maybe a year and just try like one of those sort of year hang in there kind of deals where Sheensey was always so good to me. Like he stuck by me when I was in form slumps and ⁓ you know, he was a really good mentor and a great coach to me. And he he did ⁓ you know, work with the club to put ⁓ an offer on the table for me. But it was a little bit sort of up in the air. And then last minute my manager called me and said, ⁓ the dogs are interested. You want to have a sit down with at the time Todd Greenberg and Kevin Moore. And I said, Yeah, that'd be, that'd be awesome. Like I'd love to just sort of hear what they got to say. And ⁓ I went to Homebush. So I trained, ⁓ we're training out of the athletic center at Homebush and went and met with them, had a half an hour conversation. And ⁓ it felt really, really good, you know. Like I I loved what Kev was about. ⁓ Todd, I'd met before when he was the boss at ⁓ the old Telstra Stadium before it became the different versions that it that it has become. But Yeah, I I felt really good about that and ⁓ I went back and actually had to tell Shinzi then and I was deciding to ⁓ not take up the deal they offered and to take a deal with the dogs and ⁓ that was like breaking up with someone tell telling to having that conversation. I I actually met him. He lived not far from me. Well we used to live in like apartment complexes nearby. ⁓ where went to a coffee shop and yeah, he it was so weird, it was awkward and he didn't really look at me, he just sat there cross armed and ⁓ yeah, it was It was awkward, but I felt like it was a a change I needed. Yeah. It was kind of like a a case of a change as good as a holiday kind of thing. Yeah, definitely. ⁓ like I said, I'd I'd felt like I'd gone stale and I I needed I think I needed to step outside the comfort zone and and be challenged by something to to try and get better and improve. And yeah, it was scary. I've been at the club at the Tigers for ten years at that point as a kid through to to play in first grade. So ⁓ it was a big move, but I'm I'm glad I made it. Yeah. I mean, you made that ⁓ the move over to Canterbury and and obviously a lot of things happened in your time there. And and you spoke about the grand final and and obviously ⁓ being coached by Kevin and then also Dez. Yep. ⁓ but you had a lot, a lot of injuries, a lot of MCL injuries, I believe. Yeah. ⁓ w how close did you come to retiring altogether? ⁓ yeah, I nearly ⁓ so I had I did have an MCL at the start of twenty ten, my first like my first year at the club. And there was another one at the end of the year, and then I think two thousand and eleven. So I must have I must have had ⁓ four MCLs, ⁓ five MCLs, same leg, ⁓ by the t by the end of tw ⁓ twenty eleven. And ⁓ I I was honestly considering giving up 'cause it just kept it just kept happy and it seemed to happen with ease. And ⁓ it was obviously not ⁓ not ideal to be at a new club and not being able to play and be a part of the team every week. And again you when you get to a new place you want to establish yourself, earn the respect of your teammates and and show why the club brought you over. ⁓ because you're a new person coming in and and you wanna yeah earn Earn the respect of your teammates. And I wasn't able to do that really well, I don't think, in the first couple of years. And ⁓ you know, there's some really great players there that I that I had a lot of respect for. Like Andrew Ryan was our skipper, Brett Camorley, who I'd spent some time with previously, Luke Patton. You know, these these guys are elite first grade footballers and and really dogs, you know, dogs guys that I wanted to impress. ⁓ and I wasn't able to do that. So end of 11 when I'd done ⁓ for the fourth or fifth time, I I was considering hanging the boots up. I was in a pretty crazy Crappy place. I was stuck in the rehab room, you know, for large parts of the year and I was back again. And ⁓ I was fortunate that I was at the club and I must have mentioned it to someone that I'd just a bit had enough. And ⁓ Terry Lamb was who we all love, right? Terry Terry's a legend, not just because of what he does on the field or what he did on the field, but just a legend of a human being. He ⁓ he must have caught wind that I was having doubts about playing on. And he he grabbed me just walking through the office one day, just grabbed and he goes, and he just flatly said, He goes, mate, he goes, You're too young to give up footy. I heard I heard you thinking about tossing it in and I said, I I've just had these knees back to back. It's just getting a bit too hard. And he j he he just said to me, he goes, mate, he goes, don't, don't give up. He goes, you got you a lot of footy left in front of you. ⁓ for a guy like him to Chip me and say don't don't don't throw it in. That that was all I needed. That they just went, all right, sweet. I'll I'll I'll stick with it. Told me to trust the process, follow what the physio and the doctors are telling me and and I'll get back on the field and and I did. So that that would have been a really difficult period mentally for you to get through. Do you remember how you got through it, how you persevered apart from Terry's words? Yeah, I I I did. It was a tough period. I remember actually a conversation. I mentioned my wife earlier. We had a conversation ⁓ sitting down at a cafe. I was living ⁓ around the inner west at the time, but we're At a cafe in Burwood and I broke down chatting with her at this cafe and ⁓ and it was about just the inability for me to be on the field and and these re like repeated injuries and ⁓ she she got quite upset to see me upset. Like she she doesn't get upset too often. ⁓ but me being upset obviously affected her and ⁓ You know, again, she she encouraged me to to stick with it. She just supported me. She said, Well, if you if you are done, that's fine, like we'll figure it out. ⁓ you know, I'll support you, got your back. And she always has had my back, my wife. And ⁓ that was probably ⁓ a a tough moment just to sit in that with her at that cafe and and talk through it. But she encouraged me to talk more broadly than just her as well and to speak to others. And I didn't access any any health support there, like any mental health support at that time, but I probably wish I had of. ⁓ I just think it would have helped shorten that period. of of feeling low and feeling like a bit a bit lost. and I I'd encourage anyone else to do that, like to act quickly or act as soon as you feel ready to because ⁓ it really can shorten that time and and feel less of a burden. I I I lent on others around me, but knowing what I know now I probably would have jumped at some. There's that there's a stigma around men and mental health and being vulnerable. You know it men naturally don't want to look weak. So especially back then now it's a little bit more open and Everyone can be a little bit more honest, but back then you you if you showed weakness then, you know, you felt like people would look at you a different way. Yeah. Yeah. And and and also too, like in a relationship, you know, like you feel like you're you you should be this stoic man that looks after your family and supports your family. And we had we had a child at the time. We had my daughter was three at the time. ⁓ we hadn't yet had our other kids, but so you know, I'm I'm trying to represent this. You know, provider, stoic, tough footballer. ⁓ but at the same time I'm I'm having these battles around like what does the future look like for me, at least playing rugby league, the thing I loved. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So and you touched on it as well, you know, when footy isn't going well, whether that's like on the field performances or for yourself personally with injuries, not being able to get out there, there are lots of mental battles that ⁓ the players deal with that fans don't see. I I I'm assuming that that still happens these days as well. ⁓ yeah, for sure. ⁓ you know, lots Yeah. Is awesome, right? Like you get to turn up every weekend and and and put on your best. And if you win a game, you get slaps on the back from everyone. Everyone loves it. Everyone's on a high and it's it's great. ⁓ but doesn't come without hard work and it doesn't come without a lot of sacrifices and whatnot. But it also comes with disappointments. Like there's only f seventeen guys that are picked every week. We've got squads of thirty, right? So there's gonna be at least thirteen guys. Maybe they're injured and out, but there's at least thirteen thirteen guys or or girls if if we're talking RW that aren't gonna be picked in the team, that aren't gonna be playing that. week and they're not going to get the pats on the backs. Yep. So selection is is a is a challenge ⁓ of course. And then you know I've talked about the injuries and one, not being available, but two, having your contract at risk. And then also just like the not having the ability to do the thing that you know you want to do. ⁓ And then trying to regain the confidence off the back of that to get back into doing the thing that you that you want to do. That's ⁓ you know obviously obviously one of the challenges. ⁓ There's financial challenges. I think people assume that because you play NRL, you've just got buckets of money of cash coming in. But there's a lot of realities to that that people don't understand. ⁓ you know, footballers get paid their super inclusive. So if you get a hundred K and your contract is you include your super in that. ⁓ it's not on top of your hundred K. So take out your super, take out your Asian fees, which are around about seven percent on your whole amount. So And then tax. And then you tax. So yeah, you quickly you quickly shrink it. And I know everyone has to pay super, everyone, well, everyone sorry, gets taxed. So, you know, that's that's a hazard ⁓ h a hazard of of earning money here. It's a hazard. Yeah, it's a hazard. It is. Yeah. But like, you know, then then there's because there's an assumption that you're earning millions, sometimes you get people that try and take advantage of that as well. That you know, maybe and and I I never had that, but you know, there's there's an assumption that you can just freely give out cash or, you know, some people might take advantage of players that might be a bit younger and not have any financial knowledge and Encourage them to get into some investment vehicles that don't do so well and all of a sudden they're they're down as well. So like you know, there's all those kind of pitfalls that people don't realise players fall into. Yeah, absolutely. And I I think the RLPA is pretty good at at doing that with the younger players these days, education. Yeah, the RPA's come a long way. ⁓ I was a I was a delegate when I played. I sat on the board as an independent director. Now I work at the NRL, so the RLPA and the NRL have their moments together, but I work alongside those guys a lot in my current role. I work in players safe. So we're pretty aligned in in trying to ensure the game is safe for players. But they've done a really good job over the last probably five to ten years of one, they've increased their resourcing, so they've got more people, more feet on the ground. And ⁓ you know, they're they're far better equipped to support players in the game and also beyond the game. ⁓ they run a lot of workshops as well around just trying to Manage your money, but also ⁓ you know, what to be aware of in terms of your management. They can help legal legalize as well. They've got legal people that can help when you're having disagreements with your your manager and all that. It's a lot different to when you played. Yeah, it's it's in it's improved a lot. And again, it was under resourced. It was like a two person operation back then, ⁓ the R L P A. So ⁓ you know, they've got a a full roster of people now, which is which is great for them. Awesome. Fantastic. You said you're on the ⁓ working for the NRL at the moment around player safety. Yep. Can you go a little bit more into what you actually do and what that involves? Yeah, so ⁓ I've been in this role for the last four or five years, well i in sort of a similar type role. I've I've I've sort of moved a little bit in the department, but I work in the elite football department. So Graham Annesley's ahead of our department but most people would know of Graham Annersley. Most people would wave their fists and shout words at Graham Annersley. Yep. ⁓ for for maybe some things that happened in the game that I don't agree with. But Graham's ahead of elite football. I work in his team. Player safety, primarily the best way for me to sort of explain it is head injury surveillance. So independent doctors that ask for players to be removed. That whole operation, I sort of sit above that. And then anything really medical policy related, I help implement, check compliance with clubs and make sure that again players' conditions of play are as safe as possible. ⁓ staff are appropriately qualified and and all that sort of thing. So I work alongside our chief medical officer at the NRL ⁓ who's a gun. She's ⁓ she's got a long history in collision sports. ⁓ get to work with a lot of international sports as well. Like we we hold conferences and and whatnot with the NFL, NHL, World Rugby, AFL. There's there's a whole bunch of ⁓ medical people that that are sort of in the world that I work in, which is a a really good place to be. Did you ever think you'd be in a role like that? How did you how did you get into that? I'm a doctor, first off. So I work with a lot of doctors, but I'm not a doctor. ⁓ yeah, I I was in wellbeing education when I first finished working in at the NRL. So wellbeing programs for players, supporting players, off the field, career development, that kind of thing. ⁓ I spent a year moving around different parts of the business. An opportunity came up to do sort of a type of internship, move around the business, learn from all the different departments and ⁓ at the time I was also working as a spotter in the bunker. So I was working in the injury surveillance bunker, watching games, tagging head injury events and letting clubs know that a player needed to be checked. This was before the independent doctor. I did that for about three seasons, turned into a manager role of that team and then it sort of moved into more program oversight. ⁓ so yeah, it was kind of an evolution of where I started. ⁓ be ⁓ I'm a rugby league administrator now and ⁓ I'm operational. I'm not a doctor as I said, but ⁓ I do a little bit around strategy and policy development with ⁓ chief medical officer which is ⁓ which is really good. I've learned a lot. I've learned a stack especially from you know th those interactions with with those international sports. Did I say you view d do you view the game differently because of your role? Yeah, I do, yeah. Yeah. I I sit and watch games and I hope that no one gets hit in the head. Like that's just my my ⁓ Kind of anxiety watching watching football, but I also know that the protocols that we have in place now are well are well developed and can ⁓ support players when they do obviously suffer concussions. They're going to happen in the game. It's a hazard of a collision sport that at some point or another there's going to be another, there's going to be injuries, and and those can can be concussions. So ⁓ we're constantly trying to look to other sports, look to international best practice to make sure our guidelines and our protocols are pretty good ⁓ and to make sure we keep developing. So it's a different look. Yeah, I look for ⁓ like incidental moments where players have head collisions. There was a couple in in ⁓ you know the game last night. So Yeah, a couple of cat cat ones, I think. Yeah, there was. So you know, I I I review everything every week with our chief medical officer. We look at every single head knock, even those that aren't ⁓ turned into HIAs or concussions. We we watch every every head knock going. I mean that can only be a good thing, you know, play looking out for player safety and that kind of thing. But I think where fans probably get frustrated are the ones where Things that are pe ⁓ p high shots that are penalised where they just kinda bounce off the ball and they barely touch a player in the head. Yeah. Things like that. But I I guess the NRL are trying to crack down, they they call it a crackdown, but yeah on all contact to the head. But I don't think in a in a big, heavy, fast collision sport like rugby league or rugby you're ever really gonna eradicate a high shot, are you? Ever. It's it's just it's gonna it's gonna bounce up. There's accidents and accidents are accidents, match review and judiciary, which is a separate process to me. Of course, yeah. They they you know they Have to deal with it as they as they see it, ⁓ and they determine it based on their own judgment. They've got some pretty good ⁓ indicators that they work through to to come up with the charges that they come up with. There's a lot of head scratching that goes on sometimes when there's ⁓ two almost like for like charges that people go, why is this this and why is this that? Yeah. ⁓ but there's a path to get to those differences. You've got to kind of implement some common sense as well, which I think is is happening now. Like if you see something like that. Where hits the ball, goes up, you it's just, you know, it's a penalty, no report, no nothing, it's incidental. You you move on. I think the other thing is also from what you were saying, ⁓ you know, you can clearly you can clear you can see a clear ⁓ head knock, whether it's, you know, someone getting tackled or head on head, and you sit back, you go HIA straight away as a fan, and then you know, they play on three, four tackles later, then they stop to play. And it's like, you kind of saw that back then. Why'd we stop and start then go back when Could it just happen kind of straight up? So to give you some like some background to that, because that's yeah. So our team will be the ones that stop and take them off. There there's a there's a list of key things that that our doctors are looking for in the bunker. And and if the player doesn't meet any of those key things, the the next thing that they might say is that get the trainer out there to check. Sometimes the trainer's already there checking anyway. So the trainers are all really skilled and well qualified. They'll they'll check the player, they'll ask some questions, they'll go through like a series of short ⁓ tests sort of on field to to assess where the player's at and then they'll make a judgment call and communication with their doctor. So while the orange shirt, the the trainer's on the field with that player, the doctor on the sideline's got a comms kit that they they're they're talking open mic. So they can they can chat with each other. He can relay what's going on or she can relay what's going on to the doctor. ⁓ They'll make a decision in the moment. Our our our bunker doctors are looking for these indicators on on their the criteria they're looking for. If they're not seeing any of those criteria, they can't make a decision just based on like something that you think maybe was big. Yeah, sure. Yep. But they're not gonna disadvantage a team unnecessarily if they're not if they're not checking a box. So they're trying to be as objective as possible. Yeah. The the the time delay, they can't make a snap decision and say if they jump the gun on something and they're inaccurate, well, then there'll be a blow up the other way. You took a player off without anything being wrong. Player maybe goes off and gets a test and they're fine so there there's a length of time that it takes to review things it's just the way it is it's the same with ⁓ with the referee's decision there's time it takes to go back over the angles find the right angle the cameras aren't always great ⁓ at capturing things if if a line breaks made a player's left in the background and we can't see what they're doing the players upfield like it takes sometimes a little bit of time it does look odd i i take your point it looks odd when the player seems like it's a it's a decent one yeah and then three or four tackles later they're coming off but I know that Our our time that it takes to get a player off the field is it roughly around 60 to 70 seconds overall. ⁓ that's what that's what it takes of match play to get a player off. ⁓ before there was an independent doctor, that was taking in excess of two minutes, three minutes. So we've we've shrunk the time it takes to get a player off the field with a potential head knock by a long way. ⁓ research shows that the the quicker you can get a player away from play ⁓ if they've got a potential injury, then the better recovery. So so it's it's in a really good place. Yeah. I'd I I completely understand what you're saying about the conversations and you see people on social media or just in general, and it's like, ⁓ you know, clearly it's a head knock, it's this, it's that, but it makes sense when it's explained. People that maybe didn't understand now, will understand. Yeah. And and the people that are assessing the players are doctors, right? They're the ones that are ultimately making a clinical decision based on how the player presents. Yeah. How they go in their assessment, that type of thing. So I I'll definitely hand that over to a doctor any day of the week. I I I'm not responsible for ⁓ you know, making a clinical decision. So ⁓ yeah. We'll get better again. We'll we'll find ways to maybe improve. That's for sure. I mean it's never going to be, you know, perfect, is it? It's you're never gonna please a hundred percent of the people a hundred percent of the time. But yeah, it sounds like ⁓ yeah, obviously safety safety is paramount and it's Yeah, it's the the the commission for for everything the commission does, player safety is always, always there in their mind around, you know, making sure players are looked after. Fantastic. Now let's go back to your playing days a little bit. Yeah. You left the Bulldogs again and went back to the Tigers. You ended up even captaining the Tigers. Tell us about that whole game. Going back and why you left and ⁓ I I remember actually w again, I remember moments of conversations when decisions are made. And ⁓ when I was in 2013, I was ⁓ obviously still at the dogs and halfway through the season I was coming off the bench, I was playing okay, I was doing my job, I think, and ⁓ Desi was a coach and ⁓ I was looking for another deal. The season was was getting along a bit and ⁓ as I said before, the stress of of not having a contract when you're the wrong side of 30 can be a little bit daunting. and I my manager had spoken to Des and spoken to the club about extending for another year and ⁓ I wanted to stay at the club. I loved my time with the dogs. I was having such a good time. ⁓ I learned a lot under Des ⁓ and I felt like my my foot was at a really good place and loved my teammates. So I I did want to stay at the club and he offered me ⁓ well he was in the midst of I think you know getting towards maybe a one-year deal. and My manager reached out the Tigers. He had a few players at the Tigers at the time that were young and he thought that it might be good for them to help to help bring them through and sort of, I guess, give them a little bit of guidance or leadership or whatever. And ⁓ yeah, that kind of thing. And ⁓ they he had a conversation with the Tigers and they said they could offer me like a two or three year deal, like and they had something solid and ready to go. And ⁓ he must have spoken to Des about it and Des rang I was at a park, at a kid's birthday park in ⁓ Morinora and ⁓ ⁓ I get this call Desers on my phone. I go, this is going to be awkward because Des is an awkward dude. But I answered the phone. He just said, look, I I've heard that the Tigers are offering you something. He can ⁓ you know, it sounds like it's a good deal. And, you know, if it'd be nice for you to finish where you started. You know, we've still got some games to play and you're still a part of our team and I still want you to be a part of the team. And it was really amicable. And he said I'd I'd, you know, shake your hand and wish you well if you decided to go to go back there. And that was enough for me again. Like really, it was so much less uncomfortable than my conversation machines it'll leave. but yeah I I you know I'm grateful ⁓ that Des was was pretty open and honest with me and that was pretty much the decision maker there was to to go back to where where I started and ⁓ you know support the players coming through and Yeah, I I I I didn't want to leave the club. I I've got to say, like I was I was happy there, but if I was gonna go anywhere it was gonna be to where I started and and a place that felt like home. A lot of players don't get that opportunity to kind of finish where they started. So to have that opportunity you would have been, you know Yeah. Would have been a nice feeling to have. Yeah, definitely a nice feeling. And and again, like I was so grateful for my time at the Dogs. I I've got some mates from the Dogs that that I'm super close with still and, you know, that I spent a lot of time with. That was my my number one number one takeaway from the club was the people. Like it was it was a club where I you know I love the people that I that I worked with, played with and ⁓ the people that looked after me, Tony Grimaldi, like he was he was the head conditioner when I got to the club and he now teaches, sometimes teaches part-time teachers my kids at school. So ⁓ but he's also he works at the Sharks and A. You've been there for a while. ⁓ he's a legend lobby, like he's one of the best, best human beings you see. And I love catching up with him every now and then. We bump into each other in the shower and ⁓ yeah, it was ⁓ great memories of my time at the club. Yeah, fantastic. How much did ⁓ the change from you leaving the tigers in your 20s, you you play at the dogs, you're in your 30s, you go back, you're older, you're more experienced, you're more of a leader. How did you find that? ⁓ it was challenging, I gotta say. The the tigers are probably in a really weird spot at the time. They'd gone through a bit of change with some significant guys leaving. ⁓ Benji being probably the the most significant. ⁓ I think 2012 he he left the club. And there was a lot of young guys coming through and I and they had a new coach. Sheenzi had just left as well. Like he'd he'd been let go. And yeah, I felt like the club was in a really like a bit of a transition f stage. And I gotta say that the culture when I got there was ⁓ was quite challenging and there was a few guys that had got to the club. So ⁓ Pat Richards went back as well, same time as me. And ⁓ you know, we we kind of felt like we're this is so different than when we were last here and ⁓ it was it was challenging like in trying to be I I I felt like the biggest challenge was trying to be a leader and be a ⁓ probably a firm hand older guy. But then also trying to be buddy buddy with the younger boys was a was a big challenge because sometimes you can't you can't be their mate when you've got to try and reset the culture and the expectation. And ⁓ I felt I probably didn't get that right. I was probably And and they're all fantastic guys. I loved I love playing alongside these guys. But I probably could have been a bit firmer as a leader and been a bit more honest with them, I think, around some of the things we're doing as a group and ⁓ maybe some of the shortcuts. But we didn't have some great years, ⁓ my time back there. But that said, again, there's some really good young players that came through to become superstars that I was so grateful that I got to be there for an early part of their their careers for you know, even if it was for a small bit. Pat Ridges, is it true he's got a bigger boot than Matt Burton? ⁓ It'd be a hig challenge him, yeah. Like Matt Burton looks so effortless when he kicks the ball, but it's so hard to know where his ⁓ ceiling is because he just looks like he doesn't really try and just it just keeps going. I just remember Pat Richards some of his drop out seventy meters, that the the drop goal playing over in England four forty five meters from the sideline. Yeah, he yeah. So he's probably had some bigger moments, Pat, with the boot. ⁓ and his kickoffs, we were only talking about this at work yesterday. His kickoffs were he sit him up on the T really high and spiral them up in the air and it'd be a nightmare for the catchers and we'd arrive as they were catching the ball. It was ⁓ it was a really good ⁓ skill to have in our in our team that he was able to do that kick but Patty's an all-rounder. Like he he could he was a great cricketer. Like he could have been a Australian cricketer, I think, if he had carried on with that. Anything that he picked up he was good at. One those freaks that you hate how good he is at everything he does. ⁓ yeah, yeah, one of those guys. Yeah, yeah. Benji's one of those guys as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us about it. Andrew Ryan, actually Andrew Ryan's one of those guys as well. Andrew Ryan. Andrew Ryan's a freak at everything he does, yeah. I was only speaking to Bob Cat last week and was trying to organise getting him on the podcast this weekend, but it didn't work out. He does a lot of coaching and whatnot in Newcastle and fingers in a lot of Yeah, yeah, he does, he does. But we'll get him on eventually. But yeah, top fella. Great fella. Yeah. Tell us about Des. Yeah, Des Des is ⁓ a unique, unique human being. The mad scientist. Mad scientist. someone asked me again, someone asked me the other day, is he what you What you see is what you get with him. And I said, Yeah, it pretty much is. Like he's he is a mad scientist. ⁓ I love playing for him. Like he's a hard worker. So he would be, you get to the car park. If you were on earlier, maybe doing rehab early or whatever, his car was always in the car park when you got there. And it was always the last car left when you, if you were leaving last. He just, you know, he was so dedicated to his craft as a coach and to the team. And ⁓ if not obsessive, like he just loved it so much. And I think most head coaches are that way. But he had some really clear direct ⁓ you know, roles for you. Like if if if you were playing a position, this is what your role was, this is what you had to do. And you know, like you just you you really understood what Des wanted from you. And if you didn't do it, he let you know where you went wrong pretty, pretty quickly and pretty loudly. And ⁓ but I I really enjoyed ⁓ playing under as I said, my 2012 when I missed out on playing the GF was probably my favorite season I've ever played, ⁓ aside from the premiership year. And it was because of the one, the the way that we played as a group and the development of some players. In that year, that was you know really good. Ben Barber had had a phenomenal year, you never seen a better year. I think that was the that was the year the Fords just evolved. James Graham, Sam Cass, Tolman, Pritchard, Cat Cass and and And a and ⁓ James Graham, right? The way that they ball played. It was mental. And and and Sam for such a big guy, his skill set, like his ability to play into the line, soft hands, he had the lead runner, hit out the back. Like no one really expected that. No. ⁓ there was a game against the Warriors, I think, and it was like a basketball try, and he had it in one hand. And yeah, he was doing this and then he looped it around and over and put it down over the triline. Yeah. So skillful. So skillful. He was super fit too when he first came up into into grade. He was Up the front pack in a lot of the runs and that, Sammy. He was a he was a great guy to play with. ⁓ Frank Pritchard on one edge. You know, like we had it was a really enjoyable year. And De Des did a really good job to get into the club at the end of eleven. Obviously he signed early to come over from Manley. ⁓ because they said, well, if you're gonna go, go now. ⁓ but Did a great job to get in, get us all locked in and moving in the same direction. He brought in a mind coach who who gave some some really cool philosophies around ⁓ around playing that that just stuck with us. And yeah, similar to the the the year in ⁓ five with the with the Tigers, there was a real ⁓ effort to to do extra things and and to sort of be all on the same page and moving in the same direction and Des did a great job of that. But he was yeah, he was definitely a mad scientist. ⁓ but a lot of I got a lot of respect and and time for Desi. It's still awkward when you see him now. He's shuffles over and gives you a handshake, a bit of a cuddle and then he's off again. And yeah, but he's a a great coach. Wonderful. Well look mate, congratulations on a brilliant career. It was really wonderful. Congratulations on everything you're doing now off the field with the NRL. Sounds like you're doing some Really good work, really ⁓ rewarding work as well. I'm sure you'd feel that that is quite rewarding. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and you still do your media gig too. What a what a better way to spend a weekend than watching games. Yeah, fantastic. Thanks so much for thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Yeah, really appreciate it. It was great to reflect on your career and your time at the Bulldogs and of course the Tigers as well. So thanks so much. Really appreciate it. That's Pac Mentality. So thanks everyone for joining ⁓ joining us today and tuning in. ⁓ just remember stay strong, stay connected, check in on your mates, and we'll see you next time on Pac. mentality.