WEBVTT
00:00:00.098 --> 00:00:05.892
Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth.
00:00:06.133 --> 00:00:12.762
I'm your host, Anne Vide, and today we have an incredible guest who will be talking about overcoming Tinder.
00:00:13.092 --> 00:00:15.643
So joining me today is Katherine Alman.
00:00:15.882 --> 00:00:20.592
She is a licensed psychotherapist with deep training and traditional psychology.
00:00:21.007 --> 00:00:26.408
And decades of work in tantra meditation and conscious intimacy.
00:00:26.647 --> 00:00:28.178
Welcome to the show, Katherine.
00:00:28.987 --> 00:00:29.647
Thanks Ann.
00:00:29.647 --> 00:00:30.847
It's really nice to be here.
00:00:31.507 --> 00:00:32.798
It's a pleasure to have you.
00:00:33.277 --> 00:00:39.037
So before we dive in, I always love to ask what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going in tough times?
00:00:40.448 --> 00:00:41.493
This too shall pass.
00:00:42.603 --> 00:00:42.953
Sorry.
00:00:43.027 --> 00:00:47.088
I don't have anything more, unique, but that one is so powerful.
00:00:47.088 --> 00:00:49.307
I learned that in a 12 step program and.
00:00:49.667 --> 00:00:55.968
No matter what's going on, I just think especially when you're midlife or beyond, you've seen this before, it will pass.
00:00:56.018 --> 00:00:56.677
And a good time.
00:00:56.677 --> 00:00:58.718
We'll be following shortly.
00:00:59.347 --> 00:00:59.857
I love it.
00:00:59.857 --> 00:01:03.338
Simple, yet powerful and something we can always remember.
00:01:04.028 --> 00:01:05.498
So let's start at the beginning.
00:01:05.558 --> 00:01:08.947
What is the most difficult thing you've ever had to overcome, Katherine?
00:01:09.617 --> 00:01:12.977
I think the most difficult thing I ever had to overcome was.
00:01:13.322 --> 00:01:26.253
I wasn't really very good at relationships and I really craved a partner, a soulmate, and I, like a lot of your listeners, probably had a difficult childhood, which doesn't necessarily make it a relationship super easy.
00:01:26.462 --> 00:01:28.438
So I had to learn a lot of things the hard way.
00:01:29.582 --> 00:01:32.313
So I wasn't really ever very good at dating.
00:01:32.313 --> 00:01:34.772
I wasn't very good at being in relationships.
00:01:34.772 --> 00:01:36.753
I would say missing that gene, but that's not true.
00:01:36.808 --> 00:01:37.768
I Was missing the training.
00:01:37.834 --> 00:01:43.498
I, um, was in therapy a lot and became a therapist because I really liked the whole therapy process.
00:01:43.498 --> 00:01:44.697
I thought it really helped people.
00:01:44.757 --> 00:01:57.635
And I hired dating coaches and I probably, like a lot of your listeners, took seminars and online coaching and reading on the internet about how to do dating and went on the apps and, learned some things from that.
00:01:57.635 --> 00:02:09.125
But I think as the title of this podcast is about, we wanna overcome Tinder because we'd like to get off Tinder and into the best relationship of our life, which I'm happy to say I did.
00:02:09.485 --> 00:02:10.294
Yes.
00:02:10.344 --> 00:02:11.875
We love success stories.
00:02:12.985 --> 00:02:13.854
Tell us more.
00:02:14.875 --> 00:02:14.935
I love sharing it.
00:02:15.530 --> 00:02:20.129
I, started, on my 60th birthday, so I just wanna say it's never too late.
00:02:20.129 --> 00:02:21.240
It's never too late.
00:02:21.276 --> 00:02:23.676
A lot of people will tell you it's too late.
00:02:23.676 --> 00:02:24.847
All the good men are taken.
00:02:24.847 --> 00:02:27.217
I just wanna say this is absolutely untrue.
00:02:27.217 --> 00:02:33.516
There's a lot of great there people out there, men, women, and, gender fluid.
00:02:33.546 --> 00:02:34.986
Lot of terrific people.
00:02:35.287 --> 00:02:39.276
And so I decided on my 60th birthday, I am going to.
00:02:40.731 --> 00:02:42.292
Get this thing once and for all.
00:02:42.322 --> 00:02:44.331
I had two bad marriages.
00:02:44.431 --> 00:02:47.192
The first one wasn't bad, we're still friends, but it didn't work out.
00:02:47.192 --> 00:02:50.252
And the second one was not really very good at all.
00:02:50.762 --> 00:02:53.372
And I, decided I'm gonna get this once and for all.
00:02:54.282 --> 00:02:58.697
I, went on about six online dating sites.
00:02:58.757 --> 00:03:00.317
I started going to lots of meetups.
00:03:00.317 --> 00:03:02.266
I started doing anything I could think of.
00:03:02.266 --> 00:03:06.776
And this is, this is all documented in my dating book, which we'll talk about later.
00:03:07.016 --> 00:03:11.486
I just started doing anything I could to meet, in my case, meet men.
00:03:11.637 --> 00:03:13.917
And make all the mistakes I needed to make.
00:03:15.176 --> 00:03:15.866
I love it.
00:03:16.076 --> 00:03:16.977
Fail forward.
00:03:17.026 --> 00:03:19.037
Ended up dating 150 guys.
00:03:19.396 --> 00:03:20.056
Wow.
00:03:20.176 --> 00:03:21.287
And that's how long it took me.
00:03:21.287 --> 00:03:36.477
'cause I was, as I said, backward and, the one important thing that I think made the difference for me is I, had lived in a tantra ASAM earlier in my life and'cause I was really interested in Tantra and the way people met there.
00:03:36.477 --> 00:03:40.347
Everybody thinks that sounds like it was one big orgy, but it, that's not what it was at all.
00:03:41.247 --> 00:03:42.266
Act actually.
00:03:42.266 --> 00:03:46.067
The, people there, the single people there met by becoming friends first.
00:03:47.206 --> 00:03:47.896
Oh, I love it.
00:03:47.896 --> 00:03:48.796
That's so important.
00:03:49.227 --> 00:03:52.497
Here in the West, we think that the friend zone is a bad place to be.
00:03:52.497 --> 00:03:53.576
We're like, oh my God.
00:03:54.146 --> 00:03:58.706
They were put in the friend zone and in Tanja we're like, yay, we're getting somewhere.
00:03:58.706 --> 00:03:59.456
We're friends.
00:04:01.197 --> 00:04:03.926
Why would you wanna get intimate with someone you're not friends with?
00:04:03.926 --> 00:04:06.507
That sounds so cold and awful.
00:04:06.507 --> 00:04:12.146
And so this whole idea of becoming friends first is not a tender idea.
00:04:13.437 --> 00:04:15.507
Tender idea is what's first is hot.
00:04:15.942 --> 00:04:20.021
I had always made that, mistake also that chemistry is the most important thing.
00:04:20.382 --> 00:04:25.601
But as a therapist, I know that chemistry often means this is your worst nightmare.
00:04:26.591 --> 00:04:27.596
It reminds you of your parents.
00:04:29.911 --> 00:04:30.242
I'm sorry,
00:04:30.242 --> 00:04:31.021
I don't mean to laugh.
00:04:32.192 --> 00:04:32.851
Please laugh.
00:04:32.851 --> 00:04:35.822
It's really funny how misguided we're or I was.
00:04:36.302 --> 00:04:41.672
And, chemistry off it means this is unfinished business from your parents or your past or your last relationship.
00:04:42.091 --> 00:04:49.661
I started also realizing that, the day the, apps are making us less loving instead of more loving.
00:04:50.036 --> 00:04:52.956
So they teach us to be more and more judgmental.
00:04:52.956 --> 00:04:56.076
And I thought, I'm becoming even more judgment.
00:04:56.286 --> 00:04:57.456
I'm on a spiritual path.
00:04:57.456 --> 00:04:58.987
I'm trying to be less judgmental, right?
00:04:59.137 --> 00:05:03.846
But this dating process that we practice is making me more judgmental.
00:05:04.416 --> 00:05:07.476
You go on some date with someone and you're like, oh my God, they're wearing these horrible shoes.
00:05:07.807 --> 00:05:10.237
It could never date anybody with such horrible shoes.
00:05:10.276 --> 00:05:10.757
And they're like.
00:05:10.786 --> 00:05:12.016
WTF.
00:05:12.016 --> 00:05:15.079
That's a ridiculous criteria, but we're encouraged.
00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.959
It's oh, I can tell immediately that I could never love this person.
00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:19.970
It's that's not a very loving stance.
00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:21.319
Wow.
00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:28.480
So I thought, I wanna develop more love in myself, and if I can become a more loving person, I'm gonna attract love.
00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:30.040
Absolutely.
00:05:31.029 --> 00:05:35.860
If I keep developing myself as a judgmental person, as the apps are encouraging me to do.
00:05:36.939 --> 00:05:40.149
I'm gonna attract judgmental people back.
00:05:41.230 --> 00:05:43.180
So what we are is what we attract.
00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:53.170
So I could see that I was doing something wrong in my dating, which was, I was allowing the process to help me become more and more judgmental and I needed to cure that in myself.
00:05:53.829 --> 00:05:55.420
So did you boycott the apps?
00:05:56.170 --> 00:05:57.399
I stayed on them.
00:05:58.764 --> 00:06:01.725
So that I could use the, dates that I had off there.
00:06:01.725 --> 00:06:04.035
So I'd meet somebody for coffee from there.
00:06:04.035 --> 00:06:07.759
And I would see that they weren't in my judgmental category.
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:18.439
And I would go on a coffee date with them and I would sit and I would work on myself while I was sitting with this person on what's wrong with me, that I can't extend human kindness to this person.
00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:20.629
Oh, interesting.
00:06:20.629 --> 00:06:21.269
I like that thought.
00:06:21.889 --> 00:06:24.920
What's wrong with me that I can't be loving towards this person?
00:06:25.069 --> 00:06:31.220
Not necessarily in love, not necessarily that I'm ever gonna see them again, but what's wrong with me?
00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:37.550
That I can't be loving towards this person because the dating process is telling me I should be judgmental towards this person.
00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.720
I wanna spiritually try to be loving towards this person.
00:06:43.024 --> 00:06:45.785
Heal myself from my judgmental ways.
00:06:45.935 --> 00:06:47.824
Am I explaining that in a way that makes sense?
00:06:48.334 --> 00:06:48.574
Yeah.
00:06:48.574 --> 00:06:50.404
That sounds like some deep shadow work.
00:06:50.404 --> 00:06:55.625
You're like, I'm diving in, I'm gonna heal these parts of me and lose this resistance
00:06:55.675 --> 00:06:56.514
Exactly.
00:06:56.725 --> 00:07:01.915
And by doing this, I attracted, my now husband, who's a very loving person.
00:07:02.425 --> 00:07:06.464
And, I probably wouldn't have dated him because he, at the time.
00:07:07.170 --> 00:07:11.819
Was a part-time smoker, but my judgmentalness was like, no smokers, I don't care.
00:07:11.853 --> 00:07:12.992
He doesn't smoke anymore.
00:07:12.992 --> 00:07:16.173
But at the time, I probably would've said, no, I don't think so.
00:07:16.802 --> 00:07:23.492
And I was able to, meet him, see if we had the quality of being friends first., I thought he was hot.
00:07:23.543 --> 00:07:28.372
He is a very nice looking man and so on, but it's like I, but at this point I was suspicious of that.
00:07:28.372 --> 00:07:31.403
I'm like, I'm not falling for any more guys, just'cause they're good looking.
00:07:31.702 --> 00:07:34.642
I wanna make sure that this is someone I could be friends with.
00:07:34.697 --> 00:07:35.326
I love it.
00:07:35.326 --> 00:07:38.086
Because yeah, how many years are you gonna be spending with them?
00:07:38.086 --> 00:07:42.586
You wanna make sure that there's some commonality and a friendship to keep it going.
00:07:43.276 --> 00:07:54.007
So what I counsel people is look for someone who you wanna hang out on the couch with and watch movies with someone you wanna pat on the butt and Trader Joe's, just someone you feel utterly comfortable with.
00:07:54.516 --> 00:08:05.437
Because in re that's the person you're gonna have the best sex with anyway, not just someone you're a little intimidated with because they have perfect abs or something that's not gonna be sustainable.
00:08:05.826 --> 00:08:10.237
So what's gonna be sustainable is this my best friend and my best sexual friend.
00:08:10.278 --> 00:08:13.307
So how do you find both of those qualities in one person?
00:08:13.648 --> 00:08:21.887
The thing that you're most looking for Tinder or elsewhere is this a person that I feel that my body feels comfortable with just hanging out with.
00:08:22.038 --> 00:08:30.228
So you go on a coffee date and instead of noticing the caliber of their shoes, which I don't know, I can't help but doing, but I try not to judge from that place.
00:08:30.512 --> 00:08:34.113
I try to notice is my body comfortable sitting with this person?
00:08:34.142 --> 00:08:37.172
Do I, would I feel comfortable seeing them again?
00:08:37.351 --> 00:08:43.892
Not do they fit my perfect criteria of a perfect human being, but do I just feel comfortable hanging in the same space with them?
00:08:44.341 --> 00:08:47.402
And this is a, a first, what would you say?
00:08:47.402 --> 00:08:49.831
A first screening I think is do I feel comfortable?
00:08:49.831 --> 00:08:56.721
Because a lot of times what we're taught to feel attracted to some hot guy or some hot girl, we don't really feel comfortable with.
00:08:56.772 --> 00:08:56.991
We
00:08:56.996 --> 00:09:01.407
feel intimidated, like we're not cool enough or something that's not comfortable.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:09.389
So how do you differentiate between being nervous about going on the date and then just feeling oh, these are like red flags in my body?
00:09:09.413 --> 00:09:13.663
Yeah, I say if you're having red flags at all, you should honor them.
00:09:14.577 --> 00:09:16.467
Because often our body is telling us things.
00:09:16.467 --> 00:09:20.248
Our mind is going, yeah, but he is so cute and our body's going, get away from this person.
00:09:20.347 --> 00:09:21.577
Get away from that person.
00:09:21.998 --> 00:09:26.107
You don't need a reason, but if you're nervous, you can just notice.
00:09:26.107 --> 00:09:28.717
I'm nervous and, but do I feel comfortable?
00:09:28.778 --> 00:09:33.607
'cause nervous is not actually a sign that this is a person you're gonna be feel friendly friends with.
00:09:34.658 --> 00:09:35.557
Oh, good point.
00:09:36.067 --> 00:09:42.668
Okay, so if you are super nervous around somebody that's probably not a person you feel comfortable enough to be friends with,
00:09:43.207 --> 00:09:43.327
mm,
00:09:43.957 --> 00:09:45.488
it's probably not your soulmate.
00:09:47.077 --> 00:09:47.587
Good point.
00:09:47.638 --> 00:09:53.817
Your soulmate is gonna feel like This is my best friend and I wanna make love with them also, secondarily.
00:09:55.543 --> 00:09:56.052
I like that.
00:09:57.552 --> 00:10:00.342
And my husband and I have been together for a number of years now.
00:10:00.342 --> 00:10:03.163
We're still completely sexually attracted to each other.
00:10:03.163 --> 00:10:05.712
People think older, like it goes away when you're older.
00:10:05.952 --> 00:10:07.842
It doesn't have to at all.
00:10:08.143 --> 00:10:11.202
But it's really this quality that we're best friends.
00:10:11.202 --> 00:10:13.033
That is what's sustaining to us.
00:10:13.462 --> 00:10:15.503
You may be aware of Dr.
00:10:15.503 --> 00:10:18.592
John Gottman, who is one of the big kahuna.
00:10:19.028 --> 00:10:20.707
Psychologist in the United States.
00:10:20.707 --> 00:10:40.057
He's written some popular books and he did some studies where he found that he asked successful couples what was the quality they found most, mostly made them have a successful relationship and 69% of women and men, that's two thirds said it was the friendship.
00:10:40.105 --> 00:10:41.774
I thought, men must say sex.
00:10:41.774 --> 00:10:42.284
No.
00:10:42.325 --> 00:10:45.235
69% of men said it's the friendship.
00:10:45.534 --> 00:10:50.815
If these big psychologists are saying friendship is what makes relationships work.
00:10:51.445 --> 00:11:04.164
Tinder and all these apps have it wrong because what we're looking for is our BFF, not necessarily who's hot, and these Tinder, they apps, they give you these fashion models that come on first that aren't even real people.
00:11:04.434 --> 00:11:06.085
To go, oh, I'm looking for a guy like that.
00:11:06.085 --> 00:11:08.095
It's like, we're not looking for a guy like that.
00:11:08.095 --> 00:11:09.894
We're looking for someone who's our best friend.
00:11:10.794 --> 00:11:12.804
If we want a relationship to last.
00:11:14.065 --> 00:11:18.384
This sounds like most people still think, oh friends, were not gonna be sexually attracted.
00:11:18.384 --> 00:11:24.585
But I would just ask people to stretch a little bit and imagine this is my best friend that I can't keep my hands off.
00:11:26.054 --> 00:11:26.445
Yes.
00:11:26.445 --> 00:11:27.075
I love that.
00:11:27.315 --> 00:11:29.445
You also talk about tantra.
00:11:29.804 --> 00:11:36.154
So how does Tantra play into keeping that connection alive with your best friend?
00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:42.929
Tantra is mostly known by people as being extremely sex positive, often in weird ways.
00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:45.929
And if people are into weird ways, I don't have a judgment on that.
00:11:45.929 --> 00:11:49.110
Whatever they wanna do, that's not the kind of tantra that we're into.
00:11:49.110 --> 00:11:52.769
We're into the tantra being the idea that everything is sacred.
00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:53.370
Mm-hmm.
00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:56.929
Most of us grew up in a culture that's, religion.
00:11:57.065 --> 00:11:59.690
That said, some things are sacred and some things aren't.
00:12:01.294 --> 00:12:03.605
And sex is one of the things that isn't sacred.
00:12:04.115 --> 00:12:08.855
And Tantra came along and said, all manifestation is sacred, including sex.
00:12:08.914 --> 00:12:13.625
And you can imagine how the powers that be didn't like hearing that.
00:12:13.625 --> 00:12:17.434
So they said, tantra is evil, but I don't experience it as evil.
00:12:17.434 --> 00:12:20.735
Experience it as finding the sacred in everything.
00:12:20.914 --> 00:12:26.315
So that was a little bit, even when I was dating, I would take this tantric idea into dating of.
00:12:26.884 --> 00:12:29.884
This person I'm meeting for this date is perfect.
00:12:30.184 --> 00:12:31.774
I'm the one who can't see it.
00:12:33.575 --> 00:12:35.735
That's a paradigm shift right there.
00:12:35.735 --> 00:12:37.205
Like they're perfect.
00:12:37.205 --> 00:12:38.375
Why am I not seeing it?
00:12:38.375 --> 00:12:40.804
What me is blocking their perfection.
00:12:40.835 --> 00:12:41.495
Exactly.
00:12:41.495 --> 00:12:45.095
And they may not be perfect mate for me, but they are a perfect person.
00:12:45.605 --> 00:12:50.394
And so that's how I just got this idea of tantric dating, which is this person is perfect.
00:12:50.394 --> 00:12:51.654
I'm the one who can't see it.
00:12:51.654 --> 00:12:55.735
I'm gonna work on, fixing my perception here.
00:12:55.804 --> 00:13:02.424
So if you fixed your perception and you dated 150 guys How did you.
00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:06.110
Not choose the perfection and all 150 people.
00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:07.710
A lot of them didn't choose me.
00:13:07.889 --> 00:13:14.279
A lot of them I struggled and couldn't see their perfection and I didn't really, come up with this idea at the beginning of my dating.
00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.039
This is something that evolved throughout those 150 dates.
00:13:17.044 --> 00:13:17.384
Mm-hmm.
00:13:17.644 --> 00:13:23.544
So I would, struggle and maybe go out with someone that I felt friendly towards and didn't really feel the connection.
00:13:23.544 --> 00:13:26.514
And maybe we date for two or three times and then it became obvious.
00:13:26.514 --> 00:13:28.044
It didn't work out either of them or me.
00:13:28.044 --> 00:13:36.254
So dating is a process of maybe it would last for a month or two and then one of us would realize it wasn't working.
00:13:36.254 --> 00:13:43.917
So it's really a process of continuing to refine that sense of this other person is perfect as they are.
00:13:43.917 --> 00:13:49.407
That may not be my mate, but I wanna try to see that perfection in everybody.
00:13:49.407 --> 00:13:50.907
That's just a spiritual path.
00:13:50.907 --> 00:13:53.427
I chose for myself a tantric path.
00:13:54.147 --> 00:13:54.866
I love that.
00:13:55.136 --> 00:14:02.136
Now on your website you talk about, as a psychotherapist, you tell your clients, it's not my job to take you where you don't wanna go.
00:14:02.376 --> 00:14:06.846
Rather, it's my intention to take you where your higher self knows you to be.
00:14:07.326 --> 00:14:10.537
So could you tell us a little bit more about that thought?
00:14:11.267 --> 00:14:21.756
I think a lot of times, therapists, coaches, people who are trying to help, are trying to, they have a hammer and they wanna hit the nail and they wanna, have the person turn out a certain way.
00:14:22.057 --> 00:14:31.787
And, I think that's up to the person and I'm here as a consultant or as a, facilitator or as a, coach.
00:14:32.177 --> 00:14:34.907
Not the same as a coach, but a therapist type coach.
00:14:35.447 --> 00:14:40.197
And, I think the person knows inside themself who their own perfection.
00:14:40.616 --> 00:14:41.547
And we're just I don't know.
00:14:41.547 --> 00:14:51.116
There's that thing suddenly I thought of that thing and that we've heard of, was it Michelangelo or Leonardo, one of those great, sculptors who said they just chip away at what's not the sculpture?
00:14:51.986 --> 00:14:52.376
Yes.
00:14:52.376 --> 00:14:53.517
I think it is Michelangelo
00:14:53.517 --> 00:15:03.157
that the perfect person is there and maybe they got some, like my difficult family taught me some things that I was unlovable and I needed to kind of chip that away because it wasn't true.
00:15:03.636 --> 00:15:09.547
I think that we chip away at the things that aren't worth who the person is, but it's up to them to be who they wanna be.
00:15:09.602 --> 00:15:09.932
Yeah.
00:15:09.962 --> 00:15:10.533
So true.
00:15:10.596 --> 00:15:13.226
You mentioned that, you were divorced two times.
00:15:13.226 --> 00:15:19.647
So how did you go from that second divorce to getting ready to jumping on Tinder and start dating again?
00:15:19.706 --> 00:15:21.476
How did you prepare yourself?
00:15:21.716 --> 00:15:22.976
I was depressed for a while.
00:15:24.177 --> 00:15:25.317
I think that's normal.
00:15:25.616 --> 00:15:32.756
Then I had a, unsuccessful short term relationship with somebody that really depressed me even more.
00:15:33.116 --> 00:15:37.527
And then as I said, I turned 60 and it was like, wow, that big number
00:15:37.947 --> 00:15:38.096
mm-hmm.
00:15:38.576 --> 00:15:47.917
Shocked me so much that I was gonna be going into my, third part of my life without the partner I'd always dreamed of.
00:15:47.917 --> 00:15:49.201
I wanted to get serious'cause my.
00:15:49.807 --> 00:15:51.216
Career was going well.
00:15:51.486 --> 00:15:53.606
I had, written a couple books by that point.
00:15:53.606 --> 00:15:58.346
My health was good, everything was good, except I didn't have this relationship.
00:15:58.346 --> 00:16:01.557
I decided this is my next project.
00:16:01.582 --> 00:16:07.732
So I let the pain of those relationships that didn't work out make me take action.
00:16:07.793 --> 00:16:11.932
And I think when you're dating later in life, you have to take a lot more action.
00:16:12.143 --> 00:16:13.133
At least I did.
00:16:13.312 --> 00:16:21.942
You can't, it's not really like college where there's just a lot of people around and you'll soon enough be selected by somebody that's not how it is for most people later in life.
00:16:22.962 --> 00:16:24.673
So I had to make a plan.
00:16:24.913 --> 00:16:33.013
I had to force myself to go out, even though I'm not a very outgoing person, I had to force myself to go on the apps, force myself to get out.
00:16:33.192 --> 00:16:40.148
I used to go to art gallery opens and things where other people were, and just forced myself to try to talk to people, and it turned out well.
00:16:42.327 --> 00:16:42.868
Great.
00:16:42.957 --> 00:16:48.898
So what advice do you have for people to really put themselves out there if they're shy or they're nervous?
00:16:48.957 --> 00:16:51.177
How did you get yourself to go to those events?
00:16:51.177 --> 00:16:53.097
Did you find a wing woman to go with you?
00:16:53.518 --> 00:16:56.217
Sometimes, but I actually did better on my own.
00:16:56.648 --> 00:17:00.038
I had hired a dating coach, so I had to do some accountability.
00:17:00.548 --> 00:17:07.478
I had a guy friend who was also dating, so we would call each other and give each other reports on how it went and egg each other on.
00:17:07.597 --> 00:17:08.498
When I would call him.
00:17:08.528 --> 00:17:11.728
So if it helps you to have a wing person to go out with, that's great.
00:17:11.758 --> 00:17:17.428
Mostly he would my wing, like we would, I'd call him and complain or be disappointed, and he'd say, just.
00:17:17.742 --> 00:17:22.133
Go on the apps and contact 10 men, and I'd be like, okay boss.
00:17:23.512 --> 00:17:23.873
I love
00:17:23.873 --> 00:17:23.932
it.
00:17:23.938 --> 00:17:33.623
You know when you contact 10, you maybe you're lucky if you get two responses, but that's just the numbers game and dating, which is that you just persist until you get what you want.
00:17:33.772 --> 00:17:36.863
It took me three and a half years of hard work.
00:17:37.627 --> 00:17:38.107
Wow.
00:17:38.407 --> 00:17:48.248
So are you a big fan of making that list of all the qualities that you want in that person, then putting it away, and then going on the dating apps and seeing if you have a friendship?
00:17:48.458 --> 00:17:50.948
Did you get your list of everything you wanted?
00:17:51.468 --> 00:17:55.218
I made that list and then I went back later and looked at it and I thought, this is ridiculous.
00:17:55.307 --> 00:17:56.972
Nobody could ever live up to this.
00:17:57.258 --> 00:17:58.968
And some of those things I didn't even want.
00:17:58.968 --> 00:18:01.667
They were just images that I had from social media.
00:18:02.178 --> 00:18:05.208
I think that number one, you're just looking for kindness.
00:18:06.018 --> 00:18:08.538
Someone who can demonstrate that they're a kind person.
00:18:09.228 --> 00:18:13.248
For example, my husband had been a single father to a disabled son.
00:18:13.305 --> 00:18:13.605
Wow.
00:18:13.815 --> 00:18:23.307
And I thought anyone who's gonna, who has done that in their life, is not gonna abandon me if I get sick or if I put on five pounds or, that's a good person.
00:18:23.577 --> 00:18:28.758
And he also was doing volunteer work once a month with, helping some younger men in the community.
00:18:28.758 --> 00:18:30.468
I thought this is a good person.
00:18:30.541 --> 00:18:31.082
Good leader
00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:33.751
and I had never been looking for kindness before.
00:18:33.751 --> 00:18:40.281
I'd been looking for hot, exciting, cool, whatever, not, I did not have the right criteria.
00:18:40.281 --> 00:18:44.771
So I think those really long lists are encourage us to be judgmental.
00:18:44.803 --> 00:18:45.853
So it's different.
00:18:45.942 --> 00:18:46.032
It's
00:18:46.032 --> 00:18:46.692
exclusionary.
00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:48.190
It'll be different for everyone.
00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:54.369
But what would you say are the top five things that you would suggest to your clients to look for?
00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:55.539
Kindness.
00:18:55.539 --> 00:18:56.859
Kindness, and kindness.
00:18:58.450 --> 00:19:01.000
One of my, therapists said you can ask for what you are.
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.460
For example, if you're fit, you can ask for fit.
00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:07.180
If you're financially stable, you can ask for financially stable.
00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:10.119
So I think it's good to bring it back to yourself.
00:19:11.154 --> 00:19:19.255
Instead of saying, this person out there needs to be, that to be good enough for me to go, what do I need to do to be good enough for this person?
00:19:19.255 --> 00:19:20.605
Who's gonna be my partner?
00:19:21.835 --> 00:19:22.795
Am I kind?
00:19:22.795 --> 00:19:23.845
Am I fit?
00:19:24.295 --> 00:19:30.894
I often give people a list of here's the things I wanna work on in myself to be good enough for the partner that I'm looking for.
00:19:30.922 --> 00:19:33.442
Now, most women don't think that means they need to lose weight.
00:19:33.442 --> 00:19:35.182
It's not, that's not what it is.
00:19:35.571 --> 00:19:37.971
It's, or most men think that has to do with money.
00:19:37.971 --> 00:19:40.342
It has to do with such things as like kindness.
00:19:41.281 --> 00:19:49.886
Having a caring attitude toward the other people, being financially stable, not necessarily rich, but you don't have a mountain of credit card debt.
00:19:49.926 --> 00:19:54.037
And when you are all these things, then you can ask for that on a partner.
00:19:54.278 --> 00:19:57.998
I think we wanna bring it back to ourselves instead of here's this mythical thing.
00:19:58.087 --> 00:20:01.837
Like my list would've said, no smoking, and I wouldn't have met my partner.
00:20:01.862 --> 00:20:05.342
So did he stop smoking on his own or did you hint around?
00:20:05.342 --> 00:20:12.422
I told him once, if I'm fine, if you decide to quit smoking, I'm also fine if you don't because it's really none of my business.
00:20:12.932 --> 00:20:14.102
He didn't smoke in the house.
00:20:14.162 --> 00:20:18.721
It's really, if you think about it, it's really not your business what someone else wants to do.
00:20:21.061 --> 00:20:25.832
And so any advice, if you find someone, and let's say you have kids.
00:20:25.832 --> 00:20:29.602
They have kids, to bring the Brady Bunch together.
00:20:30.832 --> 00:20:32.301
Sorry, I don't have any idea.
00:20:33.801 --> 00:20:34.281
Okay.
00:20:34.701 --> 00:20:35.031
All right.
00:20:35.031 --> 00:20:35.991
I haven't had to do that one.
00:20:36.041 --> 00:20:37.422
That's beyond my pay grade.
00:20:37.422 --> 00:20:37.991
I don't know.
00:20:38.172 --> 00:20:38.771
Oh, okay.
00:20:38.771 --> 00:20:40.932
I just didn't know if you had advice for that.
00:20:40.981 --> 00:20:47.701
Looking back, was there a single decision or action that made the biggest difference in you finding your soulmate?
00:20:48.541 --> 00:20:51.721
I think it was decision to go for it no matter what.
00:20:51.721 --> 00:20:53.221
I had to learn about myself.
00:20:53.250 --> 00:20:56.371
So I had to realize I'm only a half kind person.
00:20:56.424 --> 00:20:58.045
I'm only a half loving person.
00:20:58.505 --> 00:21:09.214
I had a cat and I had friends and I gave money to charity and I thought I was fine, but I really was only a half loving person and that's why I attracted half loving men.
00:21:09.454 --> 00:21:16.285
And when I really told myself the truth about that and started, dating in this way that I'm describing where I'm gonna.
00:21:16.644 --> 00:21:24.174
See if I can be as loving towards this person as I can, no matter what they look like or what kind of crappy old shoes they're wearing.
00:21:24.805 --> 00:21:25.525
I'm using this.
00:21:25.525 --> 00:21:27.265
I hope this makes people laugh because
00:21:27.650 --> 00:21:27.940
yeah,
00:21:27.968 --> 00:21:34.998
no matter, what, then I'm gonna try to be as loving towards them as I can and get rid of this judging people for such, superficial things.
00:21:35.298 --> 00:21:41.208
The more I healed that in myself, the better quality men showed up, and then I got a really loving person.
00:21:41.244 --> 00:21:42.444
That's fantastic.
00:21:42.474 --> 00:21:52.015
So how many of your clients have had success shifting their mindset instead of looking for that hot guy to finding their friend, their best friend.
00:21:52.285 --> 00:21:55.345
And how long has that taken them, would you say, on average?,
00:21:55.924 --> 00:22:03.410
I get emails from people, I get people in, dating classes I've taught that have found their true love.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.640
They said, I wouldn't have chosen this guy before, but I can see he's perfect.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:12.829
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this guy, it's just that he wasn't fantasy material.
00:22:12.829 --> 00:22:14.240
He is just a normal person.
00:22:14.809 --> 00:22:21.029
I get, people saying all the time, your book changed my life, my book, my dating book.
00:22:21.109 --> 00:22:22.339
It's not for everybody.
00:22:22.984 --> 00:22:27.994
It's for people who aren't a spiritual path and are willing to say, I might be the problem here.
00:22:28.355 --> 00:22:30.055
It's not my, five pounds.
00:22:30.134 --> 00:22:32.744
It's something in my character that I have allowed.
00:22:32.954 --> 00:22:39.944
Social media lead me astray and I wanna fix that in myself and go back to my original values of loving everybody.
00:22:41.474 --> 00:22:49.214
And how has your life changed for the ve Because you find the good in everyone and you're willing to see beyond their imperfections.
00:22:50.109 --> 00:22:55.630
It's still a journey because I still make snap judgements, but I'm working on it all the time.
00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:56.740
It's my spiritual path.
00:22:57.460 --> 00:23:01.299
Being with my husband, of course, has totally changed my life, living in love.
00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:06.210
And, so I would recommend it for everyone to stick with it until you find the one.
00:23:06.265 --> 00:23:07.775
And, it's worth the journey.
00:23:07.775 --> 00:23:11.015
It's worth what you have to learn about yourself, which is painful.
00:23:11.555 --> 00:23:14.615
But if you don't fix it, it won't get fixed.
00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:27.619
So once someone finds their soulmate like you found yours, what advice do you have to maintain that spark and to maintain that relationship so that you can stay with them forever?
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:42.164
I wrote a couple books on that as well, so if anyone's interested in my series, the main thing we do is we, every day we, check in and if there's anything we're still upset about, I wasn't sure what you meant by that remark this morning.
00:23:43.305 --> 00:23:51.404
In my previous relationships, I would've fretted about that all day and maybe gotten grumpy and, I don't know, just leads the relationship off in a bad direction.
00:23:51.404 --> 00:23:55.335
My husband said to me early on, I wanna discuss everything, and I'm like, what?
00:23:56.894 --> 00:23:58.934
He said, I wanna talk about everything.
00:23:59.535 --> 00:24:00.075
That's great.
00:24:00.075 --> 00:24:02.924
Just in his previous relationship, they hadn't talked about stuff.
00:24:02.924 --> 00:24:06.585
You sweep it under the carpet and it never gets talked about.
00:24:06.585 --> 00:24:07.515
Then it blows up.
00:24:07.548 --> 00:24:09.198
And he said, I just wanna talk about everything.
00:24:09.198 --> 00:24:10.548
So we just talk about everything.
00:24:10.548 --> 00:24:14.327
As soon as there's, any kind of upset and we clear it.
00:24:14.351 --> 00:24:16.151
So we call this tantric relating.
00:24:16.151 --> 00:24:19.101
We just really, don't let things pile up.
00:24:20.421 --> 00:24:21.941
And, that works for us.
00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:27.490
Sometimes it'll be something like, wow, I'm still upset about this thing that happened a year and a half ago.
00:24:28.226 --> 00:24:29.935
I don't feel completely done with it.
00:24:29.935 --> 00:24:31.226
Is it okay if I bring it up?
00:24:31.286 --> 00:24:31.796
Yes.
00:24:31.796 --> 00:24:34.526
Then we'll talk it through and then we won't have that upset anymore.
00:24:34.526 --> 00:24:40.526
So it's just being willing to talk about the upsets instead of pretending they didn't happen.
00:24:41.215 --> 00:24:46.195
And so then once you're done with the topic, do you guys agree that you'll never bring it up again?
00:24:46.675 --> 00:24:47.125
No.
00:24:47.155 --> 00:24:50.425
We say you can bring it up anytime you want if you're not done.
00:24:51.701 --> 00:24:52.270
That's good.
00:24:52.270 --> 00:24:52.361
If
00:24:52.451 --> 00:25:01.361
you're still unhappy about something, if you didn't feel that we came to a resolution in that conversation, you have permission to bring it up again until you feel complete.
00:25:01.391 --> 00:25:02.141
That's great.
00:25:02.621 --> 00:25:08.780
And so how do you know that when you find your friend, that they healed all their baggage?
00:25:09.060 --> 00:25:10.111
They never have.
00:25:10.155 --> 00:25:17.566
So you know that when you're gonna be in a partnership with someone, that part of your agreement is we're gonna be healing our baggage together.
00:25:19.036 --> 00:25:22.096
And I'm not gonna be shocked and horrified by yours.
00:25:22.155 --> 00:25:27.496
I'm gonna try not to be, and you're gonna try to not be shocked and horrified by mine, and we're gonna grow together.
00:25:28.681 --> 00:25:32.671
That's part of the agreement in a conscious relationship is where neither of us are.
00:25:32.671 --> 00:25:33.181
Perfect.
00:25:33.451 --> 00:25:39.840
See, this is the other fantasy of Tinder and so forth, is that you're gonna suddenly just meet this perfect person.
00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:47.611
And even though in your mind you think, oh, nobody's perfect, there's still this expectation that this person is gonna come to you perfectly healed.
00:25:47.671 --> 00:25:49.667
And I don't think this exists.
00:25:49.730 --> 00:25:50.836
If it does, they're way beyond.
00:25:50.921 --> 00:25:55.907
And we should just know that when we're dating it's okay for you to not be perfect.
00:25:55.907 --> 00:25:58.428
Just like my husband, he smoked at the time.
00:25:58.478 --> 00:25:59.018
It's okay.
00:25:59.018 --> 00:26:02.317
I'm not gonna worry about these small things that aren't really my business.
00:26:02.345 --> 00:26:03.605
He goes and smokes outside.
00:26:03.641 --> 00:26:04.810
How is that my business?
00:26:04.810 --> 00:26:05.951
It's not really my business.
00:26:06.161 --> 00:26:09.611
So really focus on, is this a good person?
00:26:09.611 --> 00:26:11.141
Are they treating me kindly?
00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:13.270
Are they, if they.
00:26:14.036 --> 00:26:15.175
Said something unkind.
00:26:15.175 --> 00:26:19.195
Is that, were they just in a crabby mood or was it real?
00:26:19.496 --> 00:26:21.486
Just really parsing these things out.
00:26:21.536 --> 00:26:24.715
And so how did you attract a conscious partner?
00:26:24.715 --> 00:26:32.096
Was that because you were conscious and you were so fixated on, healing the parts of you that were resisting everyone?
00:26:32.276 --> 00:26:34.885
Is that what brought in a conscious partner for you?
00:26:34.885 --> 00:26:38.336
Or what advice do you have to someone who wants a conscious partner?
00:26:38.756 --> 00:26:39.115
Yes.
00:26:39.115 --> 00:26:45.746
I think that is it because we attract who we are, and I also think you have to go to places that conscious people go.
00:26:46.885 --> 00:26:50.905
Whatever that means to you, you're, if you're conscious, where do you go?
00:26:51.365 --> 00:26:54.346
Where are like-minded people like you going?
00:26:54.976 --> 00:26:59.175
So that could be a car show, that could be a workshop, that could be whatever.
00:26:59.566 --> 00:27:04.135
You have to think through where a person, who's a conscious person would go.
00:27:05.141 --> 00:27:05.530
Okay.
00:27:05.830 --> 00:27:16.151
Alright, so if someone listening is going through a similar situation right now and they've been trying to date on Tinder or some of the other various apps, what advice would you give them?
00:27:17.621 --> 00:27:29.171
You can still use Tinder and the various apps it, but I think it has to do with a, using it as an opportunity in your personal and spiritual growth to look for the right thing.
00:27:29.651 --> 00:27:31.540
Because if you really look deeply.
00:27:31.990 --> 00:27:40.351
You're really, probably looking for someone who's kind and has the, capability of staying in a relationship with you long term.
00:27:41.171 --> 00:27:45.490
People who are looking for short term sexual affairs, that's fine.
00:27:45.911 --> 00:27:48.101
I've been in places looking for that in my life.
00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:52.570
But when you're looking for your soulmate and your partner, you shift in what you're looking for.
00:27:52.871 --> 00:27:54.746
You're not looking for the person who is.
00:27:55.780 --> 00:27:57.820
Hot and burns out quickly.
00:27:58.090 --> 00:28:02.530
You're looking for someone who's maybe been married a long time.
00:28:02.587 --> 00:28:04.528
My husband was a widower.
00:28:04.577 --> 00:28:07.643
Which means he was, capable of, lasting in a relationship.
00:28:07.683 --> 00:28:11.314
And then how do they demonstrate that they're a kind person?
00:28:11.394 --> 00:28:14.453
Who are they, what are they doing not for money?
00:28:14.497 --> 00:28:16.477
Are they, volunteering anywhere?
00:28:16.477 --> 00:28:18.636
Are they contributing money anywhere?
00:28:18.636 --> 00:28:21.426
Are they taking care of their mom, parents?
00:28:21.487 --> 00:28:29.064
Something like this that proves that they have the capacity to do caring actions in the world, and then they will care for you.
00:28:29.096 --> 00:28:29.971
Wow, that's so important.
00:28:30.003 --> 00:28:31.894
That they're not looking for the wrong thing.
00:28:31.926 --> 00:28:32.737
Absolutely.
00:28:32.770 --> 00:28:40.300
So looking back, what is one thing you learned about yourself having gone through this whole experience of dating 150 guys and then finding your soulmate
00:28:40.336 --> 00:28:41.416
Sounds so bad, but
00:28:41.416 --> 00:28:42.227
no, I love it.
00:28:42.263 --> 00:28:44.273
I really, admired my own tenacity.
00:28:44.634 --> 00:28:46.614
It's I'm gonna stick to this to the end.
00:28:46.614 --> 00:28:48.263
And many times I was gonna give up.
00:28:48.263 --> 00:29:00.431
But, the prospect for me of going into my last third of my life alone, I had girlfriends and I know people who do it that way, but I just thought, I'm gonna feel like a failure at the end of my life if I don't find this relationship.
00:29:00.457 --> 00:29:04.626
And my friends thought I was a, they told me after I found him, you were obsessed.
00:29:04.626 --> 00:29:05.767
We thought you were weird.
00:29:05.826 --> 00:29:06.957
It's yes, I was,
00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:07.820
but I got him.
00:29:07.861 --> 00:29:11.701
And you're not supposed to be obsessed in the later in life after midlife.
00:29:11.701 --> 00:29:13.136
You're not supposed to be obs boy crazy.
00:29:13.136 --> 00:29:14.537
It's like, that's what I wanted.
00:29:14.574 --> 00:29:15.144
Why not?
00:29:15.374 --> 00:29:21.134
People will judge you and maybe talk poorly about you, and it's like you just persist if that's what you want.
00:29:21.183 --> 00:29:23.673
And it's gonna take a lot more effort than you think.
00:29:23.711 --> 00:29:26.372
I think hopefully it won't for you, but it did for me.
00:29:26.405 --> 00:29:29.838
Okay, so tell us about your book and, tantric Dating.
00:29:29.878 --> 00:29:31.409
I wrote this book, tantric Dating.
00:29:31.409 --> 00:29:37.259
I was doing some tantric dating workshops in Los Angeles, and I just thought this was the throwaway book to go along with the workshop.
00:29:37.378 --> 00:29:44.568
And then a girlfriend of mine called me from Seattle and she said, do you know your book has been named one of the top dating books of all time?
00:29:44.568 --> 00:29:45.318
I said, what?
00:29:45.348 --> 00:29:46.788
Whoa, I love it.
00:29:46.836 --> 00:29:50.586
So yeah, it was on a list of the top a hundred dating books of all time.
00:29:50.586 --> 00:29:51.605
It was in the top third.
00:29:51.644 --> 00:29:53.624
I was like, whoa, I can't believe this.
00:29:53.663 --> 00:29:58.834
And then it started being a bestseller on Amazon in the little, sacred sexuality category.
00:29:58.856 --> 00:30:00.207
I'm like, I can't believe this.
00:30:00.207 --> 00:30:03.707
I thought, people like to buy content now in series.
00:30:03.707 --> 00:30:07.487
Like we all like to watch series on Netflix or Harry Potter or whatever.
00:30:07.541 --> 00:30:15.942
So I'm gonna do a little series of little short tantra books and the second one is tantric mating, and the third one is tantric relating where I was talking about the principles like.
00:30:15.979 --> 00:30:17.179
Talking everything out.
00:30:17.229 --> 00:30:19.749
And now I have four books in that series.
00:30:19.749 --> 00:30:22.449
I'm working on the fifth and there's gonna be six total.
00:30:22.449 --> 00:30:24.548
So they're all very inexpensive.
00:30:24.548 --> 00:30:27.679
You can find'em on Amazon and maybe they'll be hopeful for you.
00:30:27.731 --> 00:30:28.152
Awesome.
00:30:28.152 --> 00:30:30.251
We'll definitely link'em down below in the show notes.
00:30:30.301 --> 00:30:35.281
Other than your books, is there a book that helped you in your journey that you could recommend to our listeners?
00:30:35.348 --> 00:30:41.001
I think the OSHA book on Tantra really explains this whole idea that it's about loving everything.
00:30:41.054 --> 00:30:42.374
Everything is worthy of love.
00:30:42.374 --> 00:30:57.461
Everything's sacred, and that really is very deep for me in trying to approach the world as all people are perfect, all love is perfect, and I wanna just wanna be able to see that more and more experience that and embody it more and more.
00:30:58.181 --> 00:30:58.750
I love it.
00:30:58.800 --> 00:31:04.980
So this has been such an inspiring conversation and really eye-opening to this other world of dating.
00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:08.560
So thank you Catherine, uh, for sharing your journey with us.
00:31:08.560 --> 00:31:13.246
So where can people connect with you, follow your work, and I'll link the book down below.
00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:19.151
My website is katherine alman.com and I'm in all the usual places.
00:31:19.151 --> 00:31:28.683
I'd love if you connect with me at, on Facebook, Instagram, I have a lot of free YouTube cha videos on my channel, it'd be great to stay in touch.
00:31:28.721 --> 00:31:29.291
Awesome.
00:31:29.342 --> 00:31:36.632
If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might be facing a similar challenge and needs to hear this message of hope and dating advice.
00:31:36.632 --> 00:31:38.791
I'll see you next time on overcoming Anything.
00:00:00.098 --> 00:00:05.892
Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth.
00:00:06.133 --> 00:00:12.762
I'm your host, Anne Vide, and today we have an incredible guest who will be talking about overcoming Tinder.
00:00:13.092 --> 00:00:15.643
So joining me today is Katherine Alman.
00:00:15.882 --> 00:00:20.592
She is a licensed psychotherapist with deep training and traditional psychology.
00:00:21.007 --> 00:00:26.408
And decades of work in tantra meditation and conscious intimacy.
00:00:26.647 --> 00:00:28.178
Welcome to the show, Katherine.
00:00:28.987 --> 00:00:29.647
Thanks Ann.
00:00:29.647 --> 00:00:30.847
It's really nice to be here.
00:00:31.507 --> 00:00:32.798
It's a pleasure to have you.
00:00:33.277 --> 00:00:39.037
So before we dive in, I always love to ask what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going in tough times?
00:00:40.448 --> 00:00:41.493
This too shall pass.
00:00:42.603 --> 00:00:42.953
Sorry.
00:00:43.027 --> 00:00:47.088
I don't have anything more, unique, but that one is so powerful.
00:00:47.088 --> 00:00:49.307
I learned that in a 12 step program and.
00:00:49.667 --> 00:00:55.968
No matter what's going on, I just think especially when you're midlife or beyond, you've seen this before, it will pass.
00:00:56.018 --> 00:00:56.677
And a good time.
00:00:56.677 --> 00:00:58.718
We'll be following shortly.
00:00:59.347 --> 00:00:59.857
I love it.
00:00:59.857 --> 00:01:03.338
Simple, yet powerful and something we can always remember.
00:01:04.028 --> 00:01:05.498
So let's start at the beginning.
00:01:05.558 --> 00:01:08.947
What is the most difficult thing you've ever had to overcome, Katherine?
00:01:09.617 --> 00:01:12.977
I think the most difficult thing I ever had to overcome was.
00:01:13.322 --> 00:01:26.253
I wasn't really very good at relationships and I really craved a partner, a soulmate, and I, like a lot of your listeners, probably had a difficult childhood, which doesn't necessarily make it a relationship super easy.
00:01:26.462 --> 00:01:28.438
So I had to learn a lot of things the hard way.
00:01:29.582 --> 00:01:32.313
So I wasn't really ever very good at dating.
00:01:32.313 --> 00:01:34.772
I wasn't very good at being in relationships.
00:01:34.772 --> 00:01:36.753
I would say missing that gene, but that's not true.
00:01:36.808 --> 00:01:37.768
I Was missing the training.
00:01:37.834 --> 00:01:43.498
I, um, was in therapy a lot and became a therapist because I really liked the whole therapy process.
00:01:43.498 --> 00:01:44.697
I thought it really helped people.
00:01:44.757 --> 00:01:57.635
And I hired dating coaches and I probably, like a lot of your listeners, took seminars and online coaching and reading on the internet about how to do dating and went on the apps and, learned some things from that.
00:01:57.635 --> 00:02:09.125
But I think as the title of this podcast is about, we wanna overcome Tinder because we'd like to get off Tinder and into the best relationship of our life, which I'm happy to say I did.
00:02:09.485 --> 00:02:10.294
Yes.
00:02:10.344 --> 00:02:11.875
We love success stories.
00:02:12.985 --> 00:02:13.854
Tell us more.
00:02:14.875 --> 00:02:14.935
I love sharing it.
00:02:15.530 --> 00:02:20.129
I, started, on my 60th birthday, so I just wanna say it's never too late.
00:02:20.129 --> 00:02:21.240
It's never too late.
00:02:21.276 --> 00:02:23.676
A lot of people will tell you it's too late.
00:02:23.676 --> 00:02:24.847
All the good men are taken.
00:02:24.847 --> 00:02:27.217
I just wanna say this is absolutely untrue.
00:02:27.217 --> 00:02:33.516
There's a lot of great there people out there, men, women, and, gender fluid.
00:02:33.546 --> 00:02:34.986
Lot of terrific people.
00:02:35.287 --> 00:02:39.276
And so I decided on my 60th birthday, I am going to.
00:02:40.731 --> 00:02:42.292
Get this thing once and for all.
00:02:42.322 --> 00:02:44.331
I had two bad marriages.
00:02:44.431 --> 00:02:47.192
The first one wasn't bad, we're still friends, but it didn't work out.
00:02:47.192 --> 00:02:50.252
And the second one was not really very good at all.
00:02:50.762 --> 00:02:53.372
And I, decided I'm gonna get this once and for all.
00:02:54.282 --> 00:02:58.697
I, went on about six online dating sites.
00:02:58.757 --> 00:03:00.317
I started going to lots of meetups.
00:03:00.317 --> 00:03:02.266
I started doing anything I could think of.
00:03:02.266 --> 00:03:06.776
And this is, this is all documented in my dating book, which we'll talk about later.
00:03:07.016 --> 00:03:11.486
I just started doing anything I could to meet, in my case, meet men.
00:03:11.637 --> 00:03:13.917
And make all the mistakes I needed to make.
00:03:15.176 --> 00:03:15.866
I love it.
00:03:16.076 --> 00:03:16.977
Fail forward.
00:03:17.026 --> 00:03:19.037
Ended up dating 150 guys.
00:03:19.396 --> 00:03:20.056
Wow.
00:03:20.176 --> 00:03:21.287
And that's how long it took me.
00:03:21.287 --> 00:03:36.477
'cause I was, as I said, backward and, the one important thing that I think made the difference for me is I, had lived in a tantra ASAM earlier in my life and'cause I was really interested in Tantra and the way people met there.
00:03:36.477 --> 00:03:40.347
Everybody thinks that sounds like it was one big orgy, but it, that's not what it was at all.
00:03:41.247 --> 00:03:42.266
Act actually.
00:03:42.266 --> 00:03:46.067
The, people there, the single people there met by becoming friends first.
00:03:47.206 --> 00:03:47.896
Oh, I love it.
00:03:47.896 --> 00:03:48.796
That's so important.
00:03:49.227 --> 00:03:52.497
Here in the West, we think that the friend zone is a bad place to be.
00:03:52.497 --> 00:03:53.576
We're like, oh my God.
00:03:54.146 --> 00:03:58.706
They were put in the friend zone and in Tanja we're like, yay, we're getting somewhere.
00:03:58.706 --> 00:03:59.456
We're friends.
00:04:01.197 --> 00:04:03.926
Why would you wanna get intimate with someone you're not friends with?
00:04:03.926 --> 00:04:06.507
That sounds so cold and awful.
00:04:06.507 --> 00:04:12.146
And so this whole idea of becoming friends first is not a tender idea.
00:04:13.437 --> 00:04:15.507
Tender idea is what's first is hot.
00:04:15.942 --> 00:04:20.021
I had always made that, mistake also that chemistry is the most important thing.
00:04:20.382 --> 00:04:25.601
But as a therapist, I know that chemistry often means this is your worst nightmare.
00:04:26.591 --> 00:04:27.596
It reminds you of your parents.
00:04:29.911 --> 00:04:30.242
I'm sorry,
00:04:30.242 --> 00:04:31.021
I don't mean to laugh.
00:04:32.192 --> 00:04:32.851
Please laugh.
00:04:32.851 --> 00:04:35.822
It's really funny how misguided we're or I was.
00:04:36.302 --> 00:04:41.672
And, chemistry off it means this is unfinished business from your parents or your past or your last relationship.
00:04:42.091 --> 00:04:49.661
I started also realizing that, the day the, apps are making us less loving instead of more loving.
00:04:50.036 --> 00:04:52.956
So they teach us to be more and more judgmental.
00:04:52.956 --> 00:04:56.076
And I thought, I'm becoming even more judgment.
00:04:56.286 --> 00:04:57.456
I'm on a spiritual path.
00:04:57.456 --> 00:04:58.987
I'm trying to be less judgmental, right?
00:04:59.137 --> 00:05:03.846
But this dating process that we practice is making me more judgmental.
00:05:04.416 --> 00:05:07.476
You go on some date with someone and you're like, oh my God, they're wearing these horrible shoes.
00:05:07.807 --> 00:05:10.237
It could never date anybody with such horrible shoes.
00:05:10.276 --> 00:05:10.757
And they're like.
00:05:10.786 --> 00:05:12.016
WTF.
00:05:12.016 --> 00:05:15.079
That's a ridiculous criteria, but we're encouraged.
00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.959
It's oh, I can tell immediately that I could never love this person.
00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:19.970
It's that's not a very loving stance.
00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:21.319
Wow.
00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:28.480
So I thought, I wanna develop more love in myself, and if I can become a more loving person, I'm gonna attract love.
00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:30.040
Absolutely.
00:05:31.029 --> 00:05:35.860
If I keep developing myself as a judgmental person, as the apps are encouraging me to do.
00:05:36.939 --> 00:05:40.149
I'm gonna attract judgmental people back.
00:05:41.230 --> 00:05:43.180
So what we are is what we attract.
00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:53.170
So I could see that I was doing something wrong in my dating, which was, I was allowing the process to help me become more and more judgmental and I needed to cure that in myself.
00:05:53.829 --> 00:05:55.420
So did you boycott the apps?
00:05:56.170 --> 00:05:57.399
I stayed on them.
00:05:58.764 --> 00:06:01.725
So that I could use the, dates that I had off there.
00:06:01.725 --> 00:06:04.035
So I'd meet somebody for coffee from there.
00:06:04.035 --> 00:06:07.759
And I would see that they weren't in my judgmental category.
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:18.439
And I would go on a coffee date with them and I would sit and I would work on myself while I was sitting with this person on what's wrong with me, that I can't extend human kindness to this person.
00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:20.629
Oh, interesting.
00:06:20.629 --> 00:06:21.269
I like that thought.
00:06:21.889 --> 00:06:24.920
What's wrong with me that I can't be loving towards this person?
00:06:25.069 --> 00:06:31.220
Not necessarily in love, not necessarily that I'm ever gonna see them again, but what's wrong with me?
00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:37.550
That I can't be loving towards this person because the dating process is telling me I should be judgmental towards this person.
00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.720
I wanna spiritually try to be loving towards this person.
00:06:43.024 --> 00:06:45.785
Heal myself from my judgmental ways.
00:06:45.935 --> 00:06:47.824
Am I explaining that in a way that makes sense?
00:06:48.334 --> 00:06:48.574
Yeah.
00:06:48.574 --> 00:06:50.404
That sounds like some deep shadow work.
00:06:50.404 --> 00:06:55.625
You're like, I'm diving in, I'm gonna heal these parts of me and lose this resistance
00:06:55.675 --> 00:06:56.514
Exactly.
00:06:56.725 --> 00:07:01.915
And by doing this, I attracted, my now husband, who's a very loving person.
00:07:02.425 --> 00:07:06.464
And, I probably wouldn't have dated him because he, at the time.
00:07:07.170 --> 00:07:11.819
Was a part-time smoker, but my judgmentalness was like, no smokers, I don't care.
00:07:11.853 --> 00:07:12.992
He doesn't smoke anymore.
00:07:12.992 --> 00:07:16.173
But at the time, I probably would've said, no, I don't think so.
00:07:16.802 --> 00:07:23.492
And I was able to, meet him, see if we had the quality of being friends first., I thought he was hot.
00:07:23.543 --> 00:07:28.372
He is a very nice looking man and so on, but it's like I, but at this point I was suspicious of that.
00:07:28.372 --> 00:07:31.403
I'm like, I'm not falling for any more guys, just'cause they're good looking.
00:07:31.702 --> 00:07:34.642
I wanna make sure that this is someone I could be friends with.
00:07:34.697 --> 00:07:35.326
I love it.
00:07:35.326 --> 00:07:38.086
Because yeah, how many years are you gonna be spending with them?
00:07:38.086 --> 00:07:42.586
You wanna make sure that there's some commonality and a friendship to keep it going.
00:07:43.276 --> 00:07:54.007
So what I counsel people is look for someone who you wanna hang out on the couch with and watch movies with someone you wanna pat on the butt and Trader Joe's, just someone you feel utterly comfortable with.
00:07:54.516 --> 00:08:05.437
Because in re that's the person you're gonna have the best sex with anyway, not just someone you're a little intimidated with because they have perfect abs or something that's not gonna be sustainable.
00:08:05.826 --> 00:08:10.237
So what's gonna be sustainable is this my best friend and my best sexual friend.
00:08:10.278 --> 00:08:13.307
So how do you find both of those qualities in one person?
00:08:13.648 --> 00:08:21.887
The thing that you're most looking for Tinder or elsewhere is this a person that I feel that my body feels comfortable with just hanging out with.
00:08:22.038 --> 00:08:30.228
So you go on a coffee date and instead of noticing the caliber of their shoes, which I don't know, I can't help but doing, but I try not to judge from that place.
00:08:30.512 --> 00:08:34.113
I try to notice is my body comfortable sitting with this person?
00:08:34.142 --> 00:08:37.172
Do I, would I feel comfortable seeing them again?
00:08:37.351 --> 00:08:43.892
Not do they fit my perfect criteria of a perfect human being, but do I just feel comfortable hanging in the same space with them?
00:08:44.341 --> 00:08:47.402
And this is a, a first, what would you say?
00:08:47.402 --> 00:08:49.831
A first screening I think is do I feel comfortable?
00:08:49.831 --> 00:08:56.721
Because a lot of times what we're taught to feel attracted to some hot guy or some hot girl, we don't really feel comfortable with.
00:08:56.772 --> 00:08:56.991
We
00:08:56.996 --> 00:09:01.407
feel intimidated, like we're not cool enough or something that's not comfortable.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:09.389
So how do you differentiate between being nervous about going on the date and then just feeling oh, these are like red flags in my body?
00:09:09.413 --> 00:09:13.663
Yeah, I say if you're having red flags at all, you should honor them.
00:09:14.577 --> 00:09:16.467
Because often our body is telling us things.
00:09:16.467 --> 00:09:20.248
Our mind is going, yeah, but he is so cute and our body's going, get away from this person.
00:09:20.347 --> 00:09:21.577
Get away from that person.
00:09:21.998 --> 00:09:26.107
You don't need a reason, but if you're nervous, you can just notice.
00:09:26.107 --> 00:09:28.717
I'm nervous and, but do I feel comfortable?
00:09:28.778 --> 00:09:33.607
'cause nervous is not actually a sign that this is a person you're gonna be feel friendly friends with.
00:09:34.658 --> 00:09:35.557
Oh, good point.
00:09:36.067 --> 00:09:42.668
Okay, so if you are super nervous around somebody that's probably not a person you feel comfortable enough to be friends with,
00:09:43.207 --> 00:09:43.327
mm,
00:09:43.957 --> 00:09:45.488
it's probably not your soulmate.
00:09:47.077 --> 00:09:47.587
Good point.
00:09:47.638 --> 00:09:53.817
Your soulmate is gonna feel like This is my best friend and I wanna make love with them also, secondarily.
00:09:55.543 --> 00:09:56.052
I like that.
00:09:57.552 --> 00:10:00.342
And my husband and I have been together for a number of years now.
00:10:00.342 --> 00:10:03.163
We're still completely sexually attracted to each other.
00:10:03.163 --> 00:10:05.712
People think older, like it goes away when you're older.
00:10:05.952 --> 00:10:07.842
It doesn't have to at all.
00:10:08.143 --> 00:10:11.202
But it's really this quality that we're best friends.
00:10:11.202 --> 00:10:13.033
That is what's sustaining to us.
00:10:13.462 --> 00:10:15.503
You may be aware of Dr.
00:10:15.503 --> 00:10:18.592
John Gottman, who is one of the big kahuna.
00:10:19.028 --> 00:10:20.707
Psychologist in the United States.
00:10:20.707 --> 00:10:40.057
He's written some popular books and he did some studies where he found that he asked successful couples what was the quality they found most, mostly made them have a successful relationship and 69% of women and men, that's two thirds said it was the friendship.
00:10:40.105 --> 00:10:41.774
I thought, men must say sex.
00:10:41.774 --> 00:10:42.284
No.
00:10:42.325 --> 00:10:45.235
69% of men said it's the friendship.
00:10:45.534 --> 00:10:50.815
If these big psychologists are saying friendship is what makes relationships work.
00:10:51.445 --> 00:11:04.164
Tinder and all these apps have it wrong because what we're looking for is our BFF, not necessarily who's hot, and these Tinder, they apps, they give you these fashion models that come on first that aren't even real people.
00:11:04.434 --> 00:11:06.085
To go, oh, I'm looking for a guy like that.
00:11:06.085 --> 00:11:08.095
It's like, we're not looking for a guy like that.
00:11:08.095 --> 00:11:09.894
We're looking for someone who's our best friend.
00:11:10.794 --> 00:11:12.804
If we want a relationship to last.
00:11:14.065 --> 00:11:18.384
This sounds like most people still think, oh friends, were not gonna be sexually attracted.
00:11:18.384 --> 00:11:24.585
But I would just ask people to stretch a little bit and imagine this is my best friend that I can't keep my hands off.
00:11:26.054 --> 00:11:26.445
Yes.
00:11:26.445 --> 00:11:27.075
I love that.
00:11:27.315 --> 00:11:29.445
You also talk about tantra.
00:11:29.804 --> 00:11:36.154
So how does Tantra play into keeping that connection alive with your best friend?
00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:42.929
Tantra is mostly known by people as being extremely sex positive, often in weird ways.
00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:45.929
And if people are into weird ways, I don't have a judgment on that.
00:11:45.929 --> 00:11:49.110
Whatever they wanna do, that's not the kind of tantra that we're into.
00:11:49.110 --> 00:11:52.769
We're into the tantra being the idea that everything is sacred.
00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:53.370
Mm-hmm.
00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:56.929
Most of us grew up in a culture that's, religion.
00:11:57.065 --> 00:11:59.690
That said, some things are sacred and some things aren't.
00:12:01.294 --> 00:12:03.605
And sex is one of the things that isn't sacred.
00:12:04.115 --> 00:12:08.855
And Tantra came along and said, all manifestation is sacred, including sex.
00:12:08.914 --> 00:12:13.625
And you can imagine how the powers that be didn't like hearing that.
00:12:13.625 --> 00:12:17.434
So they said, tantra is evil, but I don't experience it as evil.
00:12:17.434 --> 00:12:20.735
Experience it as finding the sacred in everything.
00:12:20.914 --> 00:12:26.315
So that was a little bit, even when I was dating, I would take this tantric idea into dating of.
00:12:26.884 --> 00:12:29.884
This person I'm meeting for this date is perfect.
00:12:30.184 --> 00:12:31.774
I'm the one who can't see it.
00:12:33.575 --> 00:12:35.735
That's a paradigm shift right there.
00:12:35.735 --> 00:12:37.205
Like they're perfect.
00:12:37.205 --> 00:12:38.375
Why am I not seeing it?
00:12:38.375 --> 00:12:40.804
What me is blocking their perfection.
00:12:40.835 --> 00:12:41.495
Exactly.
00:12:41.495 --> 00:12:45.095
And they may not be perfect mate for me, but they are a perfect person.
00:12:45.605 --> 00:12:50.394
And so that's how I just got this idea of tantric dating, which is this person is perfect.
00:12:50.394 --> 00:12:51.654
I'm the one who can't see it.
00:12:51.654 --> 00:12:55.735
I'm gonna work on, fixing my perception here.
00:12:55.804 --> 00:13:02.424
So if you fixed your perception and you dated 150 guys How did you.
00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:06.110
Not choose the perfection and all 150 people.
00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:07.710
A lot of them didn't choose me.
00:13:07.889 --> 00:13:14.279
A lot of them I struggled and couldn't see their perfection and I didn't really, come up with this idea at the beginning of my dating.
00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.039
This is something that evolved throughout those 150 dates.
00:13:17.044 --> 00:13:17.384
Mm-hmm.
00:13:17.644 --> 00:13:23.544
So I would, struggle and maybe go out with someone that I felt friendly towards and didn't really feel the connection.
00:13:23.544 --> 00:13:26.514
And maybe we date for two or three times and then it became obvious.
00:13:26.514 --> 00:13:28.044
It didn't work out either of them or me.
00:13:28.044 --> 00:13:36.254
So dating is a process of maybe it would last for a month or two and then one of us would realize it wasn't working.
00:13:36.254 --> 00:13:43.917
So it's really a process of continuing to refine that sense of this other person is perfect as they are.
00:13:43.917 --> 00:13:49.407
That may not be my mate, but I wanna try to see that perfection in everybody.
00:13:49.407 --> 00:13:50.907
That's just a spiritual path.
00:13:50.907 --> 00:13:53.427
I chose for myself a tantric path.
00:13:54.147 --> 00:13:54.866
I love that.
00:13:55.136 --> 00:14:02.136
Now on your website you talk about, as a psychotherapist, you tell your clients, it's not my job to take you where you don't wanna go.
00:14:02.376 --> 00:14:06.846
Rather, it's my intention to take you where your higher self knows you to be.
00:14:07.326 --> 00:14:10.537
So could you tell us a little bit more about that thought?
00:14:11.267 --> 00:14:21.756
I think a lot of times, therapists, coaches, people who are trying to help, are trying to, they have a hammer and they wanna hit the nail and they wanna, have the person turn out a certain way.
00:14:22.057 --> 00:14:31.787
And, I think that's up to the person and I'm here as a consultant or as a, facilitator or as a, coach.
00:14:32.177 --> 00:14:34.907
Not the same as a coach, but a therapist type coach.
00:14:35.447 --> 00:14:40.197
And, I think the person knows inside themself who their own perfection.
00:14:40.616 --> 00:14:41.547
And we're just I don't know.
00:14:41.547 --> 00:14:51.116
There's that thing suddenly I thought of that thing and that we've heard of, was it Michelangelo or Leonardo, one of those great, sculptors who said they just chip away at what's not the sculpture?
00:14:51.986 --> 00:14:52.376
Yes.
00:14:52.376 --> 00:14:53.517
I think it is Michelangelo
00:14:53.517 --> 00:15:03.157
that the perfect person is there and maybe they got some, like my difficult family taught me some things that I was unlovable and I needed to kind of chip that away because it wasn't true.
00:15:03.636 --> 00:15:09.547
I think that we chip away at the things that aren't worth who the person is, but it's up to them to be who they wanna be.
00:15:09.602 --> 00:15:09.932
Yeah.
00:15:09.962 --> 00:15:10.533
So true.
00:15:10.596 --> 00:15:13.226
You mentioned that, you were divorced two times.
00:15:13.226 --> 00:15:19.647
So how did you go from that second divorce to getting ready to jumping on Tinder and start dating again?
00:15:19.706 --> 00:15:21.476
How did you prepare yourself?
00:15:21.716 --> 00:15:22.976
I was depressed for a while.
00:15:24.177 --> 00:15:25.317
I think that's normal.
00:15:25.616 --> 00:15:32.756
Then I had a, unsuccessful short term relationship with somebody that really depressed me even more.
00:15:33.116 --> 00:15:37.527
And then as I said, I turned 60 and it was like, wow, that big number
00:15:37.947 --> 00:15:38.096
mm-hmm.
00:15:38.576 --> 00:15:47.917
Shocked me so much that I was gonna be going into my, third part of my life without the partner I'd always dreamed of.
00:15:47.917 --> 00:15:49.201
I wanted to get serious'cause my.
00:15:49.807 --> 00:15:51.216
Career was going well.
00:15:51.486 --> 00:15:53.606
I had, written a couple books by that point.
00:15:53.606 --> 00:15:58.346
My health was good, everything was good, except I didn't have this relationship.
00:15:58.346 --> 00:16:01.557
I decided this is my next project.
00:16:01.582 --> 00:16:07.732
So I let the pain of those relationships that didn't work out make me take action.
00:16:07.793 --> 00:16:11.932
And I think when you're dating later in life, you have to take a lot more action.
00:16:12.143 --> 00:16:13.133
At least I did.
00:16:13.312 --> 00:16:21.942
You can't, it's not really like college where there's just a lot of people around and you'll soon enough be selected by somebody that's not how it is for most people later in life.
00:16:22.962 --> 00:16:24.673
So I had to make a plan.
00:16:24.913 --> 00:16:33.013
I had to force myself to go out, even though I'm not a very outgoing person, I had to force myself to go on the apps, force myself to get out.
00:16:33.192 --> 00:16:40.148
I used to go to art gallery opens and things where other people were, and just forced myself to try to talk to people, and it turned out well.
00:16:42.327 --> 00:16:42.868
Great.
00:16:42.957 --> 00:16:48.898
So what advice do you have for people to really put themselves out there if they're shy or they're nervous?
00:16:48.957 --> 00:16:51.177
How did you get yourself to go to those events?
00:16:51.177 --> 00:16:53.097
Did you find a wing woman to go with you?
00:16:53.518 --> 00:16:56.217
Sometimes, but I actually did better on my own.
00:16:56.648 --> 00:17:00.038
I had hired a dating coach, so I had to do some accountability.
00:17:00.548 --> 00:17:07.478
I had a guy friend who was also dating, so we would call each other and give each other reports on how it went and egg each other on.
00:17:07.597 --> 00:17:08.498
When I would call him.
00:17:08.528 --> 00:17:11.728
So if it helps you to have a wing person to go out with, that's great.
00:17:11.758 --> 00:17:17.428
Mostly he would my wing, like we would, I'd call him and complain or be disappointed, and he'd say, just.
00:17:17.742 --> 00:17:22.133
Go on the apps and contact 10 men, and I'd be like, okay boss.
00:17:23.512 --> 00:17:23.873
I love
00:17:23.873 --> 00:17:23.932
it.
00:17:23.938 --> 00:17:33.623
You know when you contact 10, you maybe you're lucky if you get two responses, but that's just the numbers game and dating, which is that you just persist until you get what you want.
00:17:33.772 --> 00:17:36.863
It took me three and a half years of hard work.
00:17:37.627 --> 00:17:38.107
Wow.
00:17:38.407 --> 00:17:48.248
So are you a big fan of making that list of all the qualities that you want in that person, then putting it away, and then going on the dating apps and seeing if you have a friendship?
00:17:48.458 --> 00:17:50.948
Did you get your list of everything you wanted?
00:17:51.468 --> 00:17:55.218
I made that list and then I went back later and looked at it and I thought, this is ridiculous.
00:17:55.307 --> 00:17:56.972
Nobody could ever live up to this.
00:17:57.258 --> 00:17:58.968
And some of those things I didn't even want.
00:17:58.968 --> 00:18:01.667
They were just images that I had from social media.
00:18:02.178 --> 00:18:05.208
I think that number one, you're just looking for kindness.
00:18:06.018 --> 00:18:08.538
Someone who can demonstrate that they're a kind person.
00:18:09.228 --> 00:18:13.248
For example, my husband had been a single father to a disabled son.
00:18:13.305 --> 00:18:13.605
Wow.
00:18:13.815 --> 00:18:23.307
And I thought anyone who's gonna, who has done that in their life, is not gonna abandon me if I get sick or if I put on five pounds or, that's a good person.
00:18:23.577 --> 00:18:28.758
And he also was doing volunteer work once a month with, helping some younger men in the community.
00:18:28.758 --> 00:18:30.468
I thought this is a good person.
00:18:30.541 --> 00:18:31.082
Good leader
00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:33.751
and I had never been looking for kindness before.
00:18:33.751 --> 00:18:40.281
I'd been looking for hot, exciting, cool, whatever, not, I did not have the right criteria.
00:18:40.281 --> 00:18:44.771
So I think those really long lists are encourage us to be judgmental.
00:18:44.803 --> 00:18:45.853
So it's different.
00:18:45.942 --> 00:18:46.032
It's
00:18:46.032 --> 00:18:46.692
exclusionary.
00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:48.190
It'll be different for everyone.
00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:54.369
But what would you say are the top five things that you would suggest to your clients to look for?
00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:55.539
Kindness.
00:18:55.539 --> 00:18:56.859
Kindness, and kindness.
00:18:58.450 --> 00:19:01.000
One of my, therapists said you can ask for what you are.
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.460
For example, if you're fit, you can ask for fit.
00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:07.180
If you're financially stable, you can ask for financially stable.
00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:10.119
So I think it's good to bring it back to yourself.
00:19:11.154 --> 00:19:19.255
Instead of saying, this person out there needs to be, that to be good enough for me to go, what do I need to do to be good enough for this person?
00:19:19.255 --> 00:19:20.605
Who's gonna be my partner?
00:19:21.835 --> 00:19:22.795
Am I kind?
00:19:22.795 --> 00:19:23.845
Am I fit?
00:19:24.295 --> 00:19:30.894
I often give people a list of here's the things I wanna work on in myself to be good enough for the partner that I'm looking for.
00:19:30.922 --> 00:19:33.442
Now, most women don't think that means they need to lose weight.
00:19:33.442 --> 00:19:35.182
It's not, that's not what it is.
00:19:35.571 --> 00:19:37.971
It's, or most men think that has to do with money.
00:19:37.971 --> 00:19:40.342
It has to do with such things as like kindness.
00:19:41.281 --> 00:19:49.886
Having a caring attitude toward the other people, being financially stable, not necessarily rich, but you don't have a mountain of credit card debt.
00:19:49.926 --> 00:19:54.037
And when you are all these things, then you can ask for that on a partner.
00:19:54.278 --> 00:19:57.998
I think we wanna bring it back to ourselves instead of here's this mythical thing.
00:19:58.087 --> 00:20:01.837
Like my list would've said, no smoking, and I wouldn't have met my partner.
00:20:01.862 --> 00:20:05.342
So did he stop smoking on his own or did you hint around?
00:20:05.342 --> 00:20:12.422
I told him once, if I'm fine, if you decide to quit smoking, I'm also fine if you don't because it's really none of my business.
00:20:12.932 --> 00:20:14.102
He didn't smoke in the house.
00:20:14.162 --> 00:20:18.721
It's really, if you think about it, it's really not your business what someone else wants to do.
00:20:21.061 --> 00:20:25.832
And so any advice, if you find someone, and let's say you have kids.
00:20:25.832 --> 00:20:29.602
They have kids, to bring the Brady Bunch together.
00:20:30.832 --> 00:20:32.301
Sorry, I don't have any idea.
00:20:33.801 --> 00:20:34.281
Okay.
00:20:34.701 --> 00:20:35.031
All right.
00:20:35.031 --> 00:20:35.991
I haven't had to do that one.
00:20:36.041 --> 00:20:37.422
That's beyond my pay grade.
00:20:37.422 --> 00:20:37.991
I don't know.
00:20:38.172 --> 00:20:38.771
Oh, okay.
00:20:38.771 --> 00:20:40.932
I just didn't know if you had advice for that.
00:20:40.981 --> 00:20:47.701
Looking back, was there a single decision or action that made the biggest difference in you finding your soulmate?
00:20:48.541 --> 00:20:51.721
I think it was decision to go for it no matter what.
00:20:51.721 --> 00:20:53.221
I had to learn about myself.
00:20:53.250 --> 00:20:56.371
So I had to realize I'm only a half kind person.
00:20:56.424 --> 00:20:58.045
I'm only a half loving person.
00:20:58.505 --> 00:21:09.214
I had a cat and I had friends and I gave money to charity and I thought I was fine, but I really was only a half loving person and that's why I attracted half loving men.
00:21:09.454 --> 00:21:16.285
And when I really told myself the truth about that and started, dating in this way that I'm describing where I'm gonna.
00:21:16.644 --> 00:21:24.174
See if I can be as loving towards this person as I can, no matter what they look like or what kind of crappy old shoes they're wearing.
00:21:24.805 --> 00:21:25.525
I'm using this.
00:21:25.525 --> 00:21:27.265
I hope this makes people laugh because
00:21:27.650 --> 00:21:27.940
yeah,
00:21:27.968 --> 00:21:34.998
no matter, what, then I'm gonna try to be as loving towards them as I can and get rid of this judging people for such, superficial things.
00:21:35.298 --> 00:21:41.208
The more I healed that in myself, the better quality men showed up, and then I got a really loving person.
00:21:41.244 --> 00:21:42.444
That's fantastic.
00:21:42.474 --> 00:21:52.015
So how many of your clients have had success shifting their mindset instead of looking for that hot guy to finding their friend, their best friend.
00:21:52.285 --> 00:21:55.345
And how long has that taken them, would you say, on average?,
00:21:55.924 --> 00:22:03.410
I get emails from people, I get people in, dating classes I've taught that have found their true love.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.640
They said, I wouldn't have chosen this guy before, but I can see he's perfect.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:12.829
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this guy, it's just that he wasn't fantasy material.
00:22:12.829 --> 00:22:14.240
He is just a normal person.
00:22:14.809 --> 00:22:21.029
I get, people saying all the time, your book changed my life, my book, my dating book.
00:22:21.109 --> 00:22:22.339
It's not for everybody.
00:22:22.984 --> 00:22:27.994
It's for people who aren't a spiritual path and are willing to say, I might be the problem here.
00:22:28.355 --> 00:22:30.055
It's not my, five pounds.
00:22:30.134 --> 00:22:32.744
It's something in my character that I have allowed.
00:22:32.954 --> 00:22:39.944
Social media lead me astray and I wanna fix that in myself and go back to my original values of loving everybody.
00:22:41.474 --> 00:22:49.214
And how has your life changed for the ve Because you find the good in everyone and you're willing to see beyond their imperfections.
00:22:50.109 --> 00:22:55.630
It's still a journey because I still make snap judgements, but I'm working on it all the time.
00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:56.740
It's my spiritual path.
00:22:57.460 --> 00:23:01.299
Being with my husband, of course, has totally changed my life, living in love.
00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:06.210
And, so I would recommend it for everyone to stick with it until you find the one.
00:23:06.265 --> 00:23:07.775
And, it's worth the journey.
00:23:07.775 --> 00:23:11.015
It's worth what you have to learn about yourself, which is painful.
00:23:11.555 --> 00:23:14.615
But if you don't fix it, it won't get fixed.
00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:27.619
So once someone finds their soulmate like you found yours, what advice do you have to maintain that spark and to maintain that relationship so that you can stay with them forever?
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:42.164
I wrote a couple books on that as well, so if anyone's interested in my series, the main thing we do is we, every day we, check in and if there's anything we're still upset about, I wasn't sure what you meant by that remark this morning.
00:23:43.305 --> 00:23:51.404
In my previous relationships, I would've fretted about that all day and maybe gotten grumpy and, I don't know, just leads the relationship off in a bad direction.
00:23:51.404 --> 00:23:55.335
My husband said to me early on, I wanna discuss everything, and I'm like, what?
00:23:56.894 --> 00:23:58.934
He said, I wanna talk about everything.
00:23:59.535 --> 00:24:00.075
That's great.
00:24:00.075 --> 00:24:02.924
Just in his previous relationship, they hadn't talked about stuff.
00:24:02.924 --> 00:24:06.585
You sweep it under the carpet and it never gets talked about.
00:24:06.585 --> 00:24:07.515
Then it blows up.
00:24:07.548 --> 00:24:09.198
And he said, I just wanna talk about everything.
00:24:09.198 --> 00:24:10.548
So we just talk about everything.
00:24:10.548 --> 00:24:14.327
As soon as there's, any kind of upset and we clear it.
00:24:14.351 --> 00:24:16.151
So we call this tantric relating.
00:24:16.151 --> 00:24:19.101
We just really, don't let things pile up.
00:24:20.421 --> 00:24:21.941
And, that works for us.
00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:27.490
Sometimes it'll be something like, wow, I'm still upset about this thing that happened a year and a half ago.
00:24:28.226 --> 00:24:29.935
I don't feel completely done with it.
00:24:29.935 --> 00:24:31.226
Is it okay if I bring it up?
00:24:31.286 --> 00:24:31.796
Yes.
00:24:31.796 --> 00:24:34.526
Then we'll talk it through and then we won't have that upset anymore.
00:24:34.526 --> 00:24:40.526
So it's just being willing to talk about the upsets instead of pretending they didn't happen.
00:24:41.215 --> 00:24:46.195
And so then once you're done with the topic, do you guys agree that you'll never bring it up again?
00:24:46.675 --> 00:24:47.125
No.
00:24:47.155 --> 00:24:50.425
We say you can bring it up anytime you want if you're not done.
00:24:51.701 --> 00:24:52.270
That's good.
00:24:52.270 --> 00:24:52.361
If
00:24:52.451 --> 00:25:01.361
you're still unhappy about something, if you didn't feel that we came to a resolution in that conversation, you have permission to bring it up again until you feel complete.
00:25:01.391 --> 00:25:02.141
That's great.
00:25:02.621 --> 00:25:08.780
And so how do you know that when you find your friend, that they healed all their baggage?
00:25:09.060 --> 00:25:10.111
They never have.
00:25:10.155 --> 00:25:17.566
So you know that when you're gonna be in a partnership with someone, that part of your agreement is we're gonna be healing our baggage together.
00:25:19.036 --> 00:25:22.096
And I'm not gonna be shocked and horrified by yours.
00:25:22.155 --> 00:25:27.496
I'm gonna try not to be, and you're gonna try to not be shocked and horrified by mine, and we're gonna grow together.
00:25:28.681 --> 00:25:32.671
That's part of the agreement in a conscious relationship is where neither of us are.
00:25:32.671 --> 00:25:33.181
Perfect.
00:25:33.451 --> 00:25:39.840
See, this is the other fantasy of Tinder and so forth, is that you're gonna suddenly just meet this perfect person.
00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:47.611
And even though in your mind you think, oh, nobody's perfect, there's still this expectation that this person is gonna come to you perfectly healed.
00:25:47.671 --> 00:25:49.667
And I don't think this exists.
00:25:49.730 --> 00:25:50.836
If it does, they're way beyond.
00:25:50.921 --> 00:25:55.907
And we should just know that when we're dating it's okay for you to not be perfect.
00:25:55.907 --> 00:25:58.428
Just like my husband, he smoked at the time.
00:25:58.478 --> 00:25:59.018
It's okay.
00:25:59.018 --> 00:26:02.317
I'm not gonna worry about these small things that aren't really my business.
00:26:02.345 --> 00:26:03.605
He goes and smokes outside.
00:26:03.641 --> 00:26:04.810
How is that my business?
00:26:04.810 --> 00:26:05.951
It's not really my business.
00:26:06.161 --> 00:26:09.611
So really focus on, is this a good person?
00:26:09.611 --> 00:26:11.141
Are they treating me kindly?
00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:13.270
Are they, if they.
00:26:14.036 --> 00:26:15.175
Said something unkind.
00:26:15.175 --> 00:26:19.195
Is that, were they just in a crabby mood or was it real?
00:26:19.496 --> 00:26:21.486
Just really parsing these things out.
00:26:21.536 --> 00:26:24.715
And so how did you attract a conscious partner?
00:26:24.715 --> 00:26:32.096
Was that because you were conscious and you were so fixated on, healing the parts of you that were resisting everyone?
00:26:32.276 --> 00:26:34.885
Is that what brought in a conscious partner for you?
00:26:34.885 --> 00:26:38.336
Or what advice do you have to someone who wants a conscious partner?
00:26:38.756 --> 00:26:39.115
Yes.
00:26:39.115 --> 00:26:45.746
I think that is it because we attract who we are, and I also think you have to go to places that conscious people go.
00:26:46.885 --> 00:26:50.905
Whatever that means to you, you're, if you're conscious, where do you go?
00:26:51.365 --> 00:26:54.346
Where are like-minded people like you going?
00:26:54.976 --> 00:26:59.175
So that could be a car show, that could be a workshop, that could be whatever.
00:26:59.566 --> 00:27:04.135
You have to think through where a person, who's a conscious person would go.
00:27:05.141 --> 00:27:05.530
Okay.
00:27:05.830 --> 00:27:16.151
Alright, so if someone listening is going through a similar situation right now and they've been trying to date on Tinder or some of the other various apps, what advice would you give them?
00:27:17.621 --> 00:27:29.171
You can still use Tinder and the various apps it, but I think it has to do with a, using it as an opportunity in your personal and spiritual growth to look for the right thing.
00:27:29.651 --> 00:27:31.540
Because if you really look deeply.
00:27:31.990 --> 00:27:40.351
You're really, probably looking for someone who's kind and has the, capability of staying in a relationship with you long term.
00:27:41.171 --> 00:27:45.490
People who are looking for short term sexual affairs, that's fine.
00:27:45.911 --> 00:27:48.101
I've been in places looking for that in my life.
00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:52.570
But when you're looking for your soulmate and your partner, you shift in what you're looking for.
00:27:52.871 --> 00:27:54.746
You're not looking for the person who is.
00:27:55.780 --> 00:27:57.820
Hot and burns out quickly.
00:27:58.090 --> 00:28:02.530
You're looking for someone who's maybe been married a long time.
00:28:02.587 --> 00:28:04.528
My husband was a widower.
00:28:04.577 --> 00:28:07.643
Which means he was, capable of, lasting in a relationship.
00:28:07.683 --> 00:28:11.314
And then how do they demonstrate that they're a kind person?
00:28:11.394 --> 00:28:14.453
Who are they, what are they doing not for money?
00:28:14.497 --> 00:28:16.477
Are they, volunteering anywhere?
00:28:16.477 --> 00:28:18.636
Are they contributing money anywhere?
00:28:18.636 --> 00:28:21.426
Are they taking care of their mom, parents?
00:28:21.487 --> 00:28:29.064
Something like this that proves that they have the capacity to do caring actions in the world, and then they will care for you.
00:28:29.096 --> 00:28:29.971
Wow, that's so important.
00:28:30.003 --> 00:28:31.894
That they're not looking for the wrong thing.
00:28:31.926 --> 00:28:32.737
Absolutely.
00:28:32.770 --> 00:28:40.300
So looking back, what is one thing you learned about yourself having gone through this whole experience of dating 150 guys and then finding your soulmate
00:28:40.336 --> 00:28:41.416
Sounds so bad, but
00:28:41.416 --> 00:28:42.227
no, I love it.
00:28:42.263 --> 00:28:44.273
I really, admired my own tenacity.
00:28:44.634 --> 00:28:46.614
It's I'm gonna stick to this to the end.
00:28:46.614 --> 00:28:48.263
And many times I was gonna give up.
00:28:48.263 --> 00:29:00.431
But, the prospect for me of going into my last third of my life alone, I had girlfriends and I know people who do it that way, but I just thought, I'm gonna feel like a failure at the end of my life if I don't find this relationship.
00:29:00.457 --> 00:29:04.626
And my friends thought I was a, they told me after I found him, you were obsessed.
00:29:04.626 --> 00:29:05.767
We thought you were weird.
00:29:05.826 --> 00:29:06.957
It's yes, I was,
00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:07.820
but I got him.
00:29:07.861 --> 00:29:11.701
And you're not supposed to be obsessed in the later in life after midlife.
00:29:11.701 --> 00:29:13.136
You're not supposed to be obs boy crazy.
00:29:13.136 --> 00:29:14.537
It's like, that's what I wanted.
00:29:14.574 --> 00:29:15.144
Why not?
00:29:15.374 --> 00:29:21.134
People will judge you and maybe talk poorly about you, and it's like you just persist if that's what you want.
00:29:21.183 --> 00:29:23.673
And it's gonna take a lot more effort than you think.
00:29:23.711 --> 00:29:26.372
I think hopefully it won't for you, but it did for me.
00:29:26.405 --> 00:29:29.838
Okay, so tell us about your book and, tantric Dating.
00:29:29.878 --> 00:29:31.409
I wrote this book, tantric Dating.
00:29:31.409 --> 00:29:37.259
I was doing some tantric dating workshops in Los Angeles, and I just thought this was the throwaway book to go along with the workshop.
00:29:37.378 --> 00:29:44.568
And then a girlfriend of mine called me from Seattle and she said, do you know your book has been named one of the top dating books of all time?
00:29:44.568 --> 00:29:45.318
I said, what?
00:29:45.348 --> 00:29:46.788
Whoa, I love it.
00:29:46.836 --> 00:29:50.586
So yeah, it was on a list of the top a hundred dating books of all time.
00:29:50.586 --> 00:29:51.605
It was in the top third.
00:29:51.644 --> 00:29:53.624
I was like, whoa, I can't believe this.
00:29:53.663 --> 00:29:58.834
And then it started being a bestseller on Amazon in the little, sacred sexuality category.
00:29:58.856 --> 00:30:00.207
I'm like, I can't believe this.
00:30:00.207 --> 00:30:03.707
I thought, people like to buy content now in series.
00:30:03.707 --> 00:30:07.487
Like we all like to watch series on Netflix or Harry Potter or whatever.
00:30:07.541 --> 00:30:15.942
So I'm gonna do a little series of little short tantra books and the second one is tantric mating, and the third one is tantric relating where I was talking about the principles like.
00:30:15.979 --> 00:30:17.179
Talking everything out.
00:30:17.229 --> 00:30:19.749
And now I have four books in that series.
00:30:19.749 --> 00:30:22.449
I'm working on the fifth and there's gonna be six total.
00:30:22.449 --> 00:30:24.548
So they're all very inexpensive.
00:30:24.548 --> 00:30:27.679
You can find'em on Amazon and maybe they'll be hopeful for you.
00:30:27.731 --> 00:30:28.152
Awesome.
00:30:28.152 --> 00:30:30.251
We'll definitely link'em down below in the show notes.
00:30:30.301 --> 00:30:35.281
Other than your books, is there a book that helped you in your journey that you could recommend to our listeners?
00:30:35.348 --> 00:30:41.001
I think the OSHA book on Tantra really explains this whole idea that it's about loving everything.
00:30:41.054 --> 00:30:42.374
Everything is worthy of love.
00:30:42.374 --> 00:30:57.461
Everything's sacred, and that really is very deep for me in trying to approach the world as all people are perfect, all love is perfect, and I wanna just wanna be able to see that more and more experience that and embody it more and more.
00:30:58.181 --> 00:30:58.750
I love it.
00:30:58.800 --> 00:31:04.980
So this has been such an inspiring conversation and really eye-opening to this other world of dating.
00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:08.560
So thank you Catherine, uh, for sharing your journey with us.
00:31:08.560 --> 00:31:13.246
So where can people connect with you, follow your work, and I'll link the book down below.
00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:19.151
My website is katherine alman.com and I'm in all the usual places.
00:31:19.151 --> 00:31:28.683
I'd love if you connect with me at, on Facebook, Instagram, I have a lot of free YouTube cha videos on my channel, it'd be great to stay in touch.
00:31:28.721 --> 00:31:29.291
Awesome.
00:31:29.342 --> 00:31:36.632
If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might be facing a similar challenge and needs to hear this message of hope and dating advice.
00:31:36.632 --> 00:31:38.791
I'll see you next time on overcoming Anything.
