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Welcome to Outside the Line, a podcast with conversations about keeping cops anchored to what really matters life outside the thin blue line.
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I'm your host, Dina Campbell, an active duty NYPD detective on a mission to normalize conversations around resilience and mental health and help cops develop self-awareness and an identity outside their career so they can enjoy life and thrive in the real world.
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Outside the line.
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It is absolutely my pleasure.
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Thank you for inviting me today.
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Yeah, I came across your LinkedIn profile and I just loved your message.
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And I'm like, oh, I have to, I have to have her on.
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So I really appreciate you being here.
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How did you get started in law enforcement?
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Uh, it's an interesting path for me that's unlike other people's paths.
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I actually had a really, really rough upbringing.
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And so usually kids that have the kind of upbringing that I have end up turning out like their parents.
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And I just knew from an early age that I did not want to uh follow in their their foot footsteps.
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Uh both my parents are now deceased.
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Um, that's that happens.
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People end up not living as long of a life when they have those um, they make those hard life choices.
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But I I got turned on to an Anne Rule book, who um Ann Rule is a true crime author when I was only in fifth grade.
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And so the first the first real big book I read was Small Sacrifices by Anne Rule.
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That is not reading material that is recommended for a fifth grader, by the way.
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That is a story about Diane Downs and how she murdered one of her children and attempted to murder the other two.
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And I was just fascinated by the detectives and the work they did to put the case together and how they figured out because Anne was saying, because Diane was saying that a stranger tried to murder her children, but really the detectives were able to figure out that it was her, and it was so interesting to me.
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From that point forward, I just knew that I wanted to be an investigator.
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I wanted to solve crime.
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And so, even as early as middle school, when you get to choose a topic for a report, I was always choosing things like serial killers.
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And uh as early as sixth grade, I got voted most likely to become a police officer.
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So I just one of those things where yeah, one of those things where I always knew I wanted to be a police officer.
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That's incredible because good on you for recognizing at an early age that you didn't have to repeat a cycle, that you there was another choice.
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Yes.
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What drew you to that book initially?
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Do you remember?
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My mom was reading it, and I asked her if uh I could read it, and she said yes.
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Uh, I had a very untraditional childhood, like I said, I think most parents would say, No, honey, this is not for you.
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But she was like, sure.
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So she let me read it.
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And then from then on, I read several other Anne Rule books.
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That was my choice of reading, was true crime, even from a very young age.
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And how old were you when you went into the academy?
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So I grew up in a really small town, and so I wanted to be a police officer, but I got really good grades in high school.
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And so my teachers told me, no, no, no, you're too smart to be a police officer, your grades are too high, you need to do something else.
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So I convinced myself, okay, I will then be a forensic pathologist.
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So at the end of high school, my senior year of high school, being that it was a small town, we had one funeral home in town.
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And so I was able to do a work study to get high school credit that was going towards being a um a professional.
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So I went to the funeral home as my you know 17 to 18-year-old self, my senior year of high school, and said, I want to be a forensic pathologist.
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Can I help you with autopsies?
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And they said, No, they said, no, get out of here.
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And so then the next week I showed up and I'm like, here I am again.
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Did you change your mind?
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Can I help with autopsies?
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And they were like, What is wrong with this child?
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No.
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And they sent me away.
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And I came back the next week and they're like, wow, she's really serious about this.
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That she's tenacious, she's got initiative.
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So they hired me to do the work study.
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So I started assisting with autopsies and bombings and um preparing people for their funerals when I was in high school.
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And I ended up working that job throughout college as one of my college jobs.
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So once I graduated high school, I went to a private school and was pre-med for one quarter and realized why am I doing this for other people when I really want to be a police officer?
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So I transferred to a state school to save money because I had to put myself through college.
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Um, so double-majored psychology and law and justice, and was able to get both of those degrees in three years flat by taking heavy, heavy loads, 18 to 24 credits a quarter to put myself through college.
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So that's how I knew I wanted to like really invest in being a police officer.
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That's a really heavy load, 24 credits a semester.
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Good on you for it, it's not, especially at such a young age, to have the awareness that you're like, why am I living for other people?
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Like, even if those other people mean well, why am I doing something because they want me to do it when it's not what I really want to do?
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Yeah, thank you for saying that and pointing that out.
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Yeah.
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So we didn't, you go.
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So once I graduated college, because I was in a small town, I was waiting for there to be an opening in that small town police department because my world was so small, right?
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I didn't realize there's this gigantic world out there.
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So I waited and waited and waited for there to be an opening in that police department, and there wasn't one.
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And one night um we ended up going to a scene with uh another large agency, and I realized, hmm, maybe I should apply to that large agency.
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And so I did, and that's why I ended up with the agency that I'm at, and um, I got hired when I was 24 years old, and now I'm almost 24 years in, so you can do the math to figure out how old I am.
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Um, and that's that's kind of how my path started.
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That's amazing.
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Now, because you grew up basically wanting to become a cop from a very young age, when you went into the academy, did you find that you were able to maintain an identity outside of law enforcement, or because it was something that was always in your mind, did you just jump in with both feet?
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I feel like I was able to maintain my identity outside of law enforcement.
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I was the only girl in my whole academy class.
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It was the first time in my agency's history that they had ever had only one girl in the academy class.
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And so I was different to begin with, right?
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And so I didn't feel, I mean, I think a lot of female officers feel like they need to assimilate to some degree because at least in my agency, there weren't very many females.
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And so that was like struggling with my identity and proving to the boys that I could do the job and that I was just as tough as them and just as resilient, and I could accomplish just as much.
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And it took me a while to realize that just being myself was enough, that I didn't have to try to put on a persona that wasn't me and wasn't authentic.
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And so um because I had outside friends, I never really had that identity where everything revolved around being a police officer.
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And I don't know, again, if it's because I was the only girl in my class, but I just I never really had had that be a problem for me.
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And that's incredible too, because a lot of times what happens is the friendships that we have outside of law enforcement kind of fall by the wayside because we feel like, oh, well, they don't understand the job that I do, or you know, I'm tired of canceling plans because I get hit for overtime at the last minute.
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You know what I mean?
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All of those things, those relationships end up suffering.
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I'm so glad that wasn't the case.
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So, how long, how far into your career did you become an investigator?
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Because that's what you initially wanted to do.
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Yeah, so just going back to touch on one of the things that you just mentioned, um, my personal relationship did suffer because the man that I was personally involved with at that time did not understand why I wanted to be in law enforcement.
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He didn't understand that all my coworkers were men, he didn't understand that therefore my friends were men.
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And so it was just a very big disconnect between us.
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And so it ended up that relationship was not able to flourish under those, those situations or under that situation, which was fine because it wasn't meant to be, right?
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So, um, so in my agency, I I am so glad that the small agency didn't work out because I ended up with a very large agency that had those opportunities where you could work your way into detectives, and then my agency also doesn't have a detective rotation.
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Some smaller agencies, you can be a detective for two years or three years, and then you have to rotate back out and go to the road.
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So I worked the road in Seattle in a very busy metropolitan area, and then I was able to get detective in Tacoma, which is also a very busy metropolitan area.
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And so that was after seven years of working the road, I was able to work my way into detectives for my first detective role.
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That's amazing.
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And how long did you do that?
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Very short period of time, less than a year before I was already on the sergeant's promotion list and I didn't want to take the sergeant's test again.
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So I ended up um promoting to sergeant and then ended up working my way into a detective sergeant position in internal affairs after that.
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What influenced, because I know you're now an executive, what influenced your decision to take those supervisory tests and move up the ranks?
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I think there was a couple things that influenced the decision.
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One is I'm really ambitious to a fault, and I really like helping people.
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And so I noticed changes that I thought should be made in the agency, and I realized I couldn't influence the change unless I was in those ranks to be able to do it.
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And then also I saw how people were being cared for by their supervisors, and I cared deeply for my followers, my team members.
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And so I wanted to love them in a way that others weren't being loved by their chain of command.
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And so I knew the only way that I could do it was by promoting so that I could have that bigger span of influence and that bigger change.
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And then part of it is like, if not me, then who?
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And I looked around at some of my peers that I did not want to work for and thought, well, I better, I better take the test.
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That's awesome.
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And how has your experience been?
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I know you were the only female in your whole academy class, but as you move up the ranks, how has it been as a female in an executive position in like a predominantly male-dominated field?
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Um, I am comfortable in my skin.
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I'm comfortable with who I am.
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I'm a very confident person.
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And so uh are there times that I look around the room and I'm the only female in the room?
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Yes.
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Does that bother me?
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No.
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I don't believe in promoting people just to check a box.
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I think that we have to have merit.
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We have to invest in people so that they can be successful.
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Because I've seen too many times where an underrepresented person from an underrepresented population gets promoted prematurely and they fail.
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And it's bad for that underrepresented community, it's bad for the culture of the agency.
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It just doesn't do any good.
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So I think that representation matters when that representation is competent.
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That's such a great answer.
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I am among, you know, a similar mindset that I believe that everything should be merit-based.
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And I also love that yes, we're women in a male-dominated industry, but that doesn't have to be a hindrance.
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That doesn't, you know what I mean?
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That doesn't have to, it's it doesn't have to bother you if you don't let it.
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It's just I think a lot in my perception or my perspective and my experience is there are a lot of women that put their own emotion on me and they think, oh my gosh, you must, you know, they, you know, however they're feeling, they assume I'm feeling the same way.
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Just you just know that it doesn't bother you.
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Well, if it bothers them, they assume it bothers me.
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And so having those conversations with women of it, it I feel like some women think it's not okay to say that you're unbothered, that you're for some reason not supporting other women if you if you aren't.
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And it's a it's a different, it's an interesting dichotomy.
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Yes.
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So I'm sure that there have been heavy jobs, heavy cases that you've had throughout your career.
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And along the way, you've probably had hopefully somebody to lean on to talk about those things with, whether it was a coworker, somebody on the job, or somebody outside.
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As you move up the ranks, you know, there's that saying it's lonely at the top.
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Do you find that to be true?
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Are there less people that you can lean on?
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Yeah, so I feel like I my gift to society is the carnage and the pain and the worst of the worst that we see society do to each other.
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I can go to that scene and I can investigate it, and I don't carry that baggage with me.
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I'm I'm really good at saying I can't help what helped happened, but I can help like what I can't help what happened in the past, but I can help what's happening in the future.
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I can do a thorough investigation, I can give closure.
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And so I am I am not harmed by carnage that I see at work.
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It's my gift to society to be able to go to that scene and and go on my merry way and conduct the investigation.
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So there aren't scenes from my past that haunted me, but there are infighting drama in the workplace that bothers me.
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And so that's more of the stress that I carry is why can't we all just get along?
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Why can't we love each other?
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Why can't we support each other?
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There's enough harm from the outside coming in.
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Why are we causing harm from within our agency?
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And so those are the things that I need more peer support outlets for rather than you know, other harms.
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We all have different tolerance levels, we all have different things that that trigger us.
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And for me, those are the things that I try to make sure that I'm making sure I'm healthy about is those those kind of relationships.
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That's so important because you said a few things that I want to touch on.
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So the first thing is when you respond to a scene, you can't change what happened.
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You can only choose how to make that person, you know, how to leave that person in better shape than you found them.
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And that speaks a lot to resilience and controlling what you can control, right?
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Because that's all we can do.
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I know you're also very into wellness.
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You mentioned peer support.
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As a peer supporter myself, a lot of things that I deal with are again infighting.
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And it's not really the the community or the people on the street that stress officers out.
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It's it's the internal policies and the infighting and the nitpicking and all of that stuff.
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I agree.
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I know you're also big into wellness.
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Is that something that you've carried throughout your career, or is that something that you developed as you went along?
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So I've always been really into wellness in general.
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But as I've gotten older, I've turned more and more into a self-proclaimed proclaimed crazy hippie with regard to wellness.
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I feel like the more informed you are, then the more like I have curated my life to live in a stage of the most optimal health that I can curate for myself.
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And so that is overall wellness in all kinds of different ways.
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So I've always been fit, I've always ate healthy, but now that I'm more informed, I've taken those things to the next level.
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So with nutrition, really trying to focus on eating whole foods and understanding how whole foods in your system are better for your wellness than eating processed foods, for example.
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And then how the domino, if you're eating a bunch of junk, how that domino effect harms so many systems of your body, right?
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And just really understanding how nutrition affects wellness, your overall wellness, right?
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Your metabolic health, all of that.
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And then just being active is a really good step stress relief.
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I've done um so many different fitness programs over the years.
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And right now I'm 48 years old, as you can tell from doing the math earlier.
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So I'm really trying to lift weights and keep my flexibility limber.
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So I do yoga and weightlifting to maintain that one, that outlet for stress, and then just making sure I have good body mass and that I'm really um fit as I grow older so that I can have the most optimal health.
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I also um study stoicism.
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That's my outlet for stress receive is like the stoic principles and really framing those bad things that happen in life, of even like um Jocko saying, okay, this bad thing happened, good, right?
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So that's my own resilience in in studying stoicism for mental health, making sure that I have time to hang out with friends or do the things that I enjoy, being out in nature, those ways to like, it's like kind of mind, body, soul.
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And then I I fast regularly too.
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Um, I I do 24 to 36 hours almost weekly and up to 72 hours every other month.
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And I feel like that helps like with a lot of different resets.
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Your gut health, your dopamine reset, your immunity reset, um HGH, autophagy, all of those things have really helped push my wellness over the line.
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So I feel like I'm doing a lot of different things with supplements that just help my overall health.
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So I am extreme.
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Again, self-proclaimed proclaimed crazy hippie, um, not for everybody, but that's my choice in making sure that I'm surviving this career the best I can and that I move on to the next chapter as well as I can be in all of those aspects of life.
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And that's really important because we are wellness has become such a buzzword, first of all, especially in the law enforcement space.
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Like everybody, not everybody, but people claim to be like self-proclaimed wellness experts and influencers and all of these things.
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And it's good that we're having these conversations.
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However, sometimes there's almost too much information out there.
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And the important thing to remember is that it's highly individualized.
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So what works for one person may not work for somebody else.
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It's not about checking the same boxes as somebody, it's really about taking care of yourself in a well-rounded, complete way.
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Yes, I'm so glad that you said that.
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That's something I'm I say routinely, but I missed is that sometimes people will say, Well, tell me all the things that you do.
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And I tell them, all the things that I do might not be good for you.
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You need to figure out what works for you.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:22.480
Just like nutrition is there are foods that are nutritious, but different people have different tolerances or different tastes.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.960
So I can't give you, I mean, I can share with you every single thing I eat in a day, but it might not be what's best for you.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.039
This has taken me years again to curate what makes my body feel good and what makes me feel good.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:45.519
So figuring out for yourself, there's a lot of different things that you can do for your wellness and trying to curate it for yourself and just be open-minded of all of those things and try it.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:59.039
And I mean, the goal really, especially in a law enforcement career, is not just to make it to retirement, but to thrive past, you know, like years and years after retirement.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759
The reality is.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:10.079
If we don't take care of ourselves along the way, we're only looking at five to seven years, maybe 10 years if you're lucky, past retirement.
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.200
Yeah, those statistics are really scary.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.720
Yeah, we can't wait.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:19.599
It, you know, saying, all right, I'm gonna wait until I retire to start taking care of myself.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.519
You're already behind the eight ball.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.119
But you know, the best day to start was yesterday.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.200
The second best day is today.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.000
Right.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.359
I think another thing that we didn't touch on that's so important is sleep, right?
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.680
Yeah, that was our last point.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.119
Yeah, they're trying to have that really good sleep routine pattern.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:57.119
And even if it's a bad shift, waking up, going to bed and waking up the same time every day to keep that sleep pattern, because uh studies I've read have shown it's not necessarily the number of hours of sleep you get, it's the it's that cycle time that you get, right?
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.119
Waking up and going to bed at the same time every day, if at all possible.
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.319
So uh some people might be listening and saying, Oh, that's cute.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:17.920
You're an executive, you get to to work business hours, but even when I wasn't an executive and I work shift work, I still tried to have that that routine, that sleep routine, the best I could.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.119
And whenever I'm speaking on the importance of sleep, I get a lot of chuckles too.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:24.559
They're like, Yeah, that's cute.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:32.079
But it's not really about, I mean, ideally, right, a full night's sleep is what, six to eight hours.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:52.000
It's not so much about the quantity as it is the quality, because if you only have four hours, then you know, scrolling on your phone for 30, 40 minutes isn't gonna do yourself any favors because you're not getting the maximum amount of quality sleep that you could possibly be getting.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.200
Right.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.960
And there's a lot of studies now about what are the best sleep supplements to take, right?
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.160
Um, you know, melatonin isn't necessarily good for you because then your body won't produce it on its own.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:12.240
And all of the scary things, I know a lot of people take the Benadryl kind of drugs, and how that's really bad for your blood brain barrier.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:21.279
And so, what are those supplements that you can get on that you um you are deficient that would help you get regular sleep?
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:38.240
And so I I take those um magnesium, anisotol, glycine, L-thhyinine, that sleep stack every night before I go to bed, so that I can put myself in the best position possible to get that really important sleep.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:50.400
Yeah, and then supplements are great and we need them, and they're designed to work in tandem with other things that we're already doing.
00:24:50.559 --> 00:25:07.839
So, like you said, getting exercise during the day, getting sunlight, you know, good nutrition, all of these things play a part in sleep, which helps us recover, you know, and makes us better, not just as law enforcement officers, but better, well-rounded human beings.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:09.119
Right.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:16.960
Another, excuse me, another personal choice I made over the last uh couple of years is I chose to stop drinking alcohol altogether.
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:23.200
I had never uh, I'd only been a social drinker, I never had an alcohol problem or anything like that.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:33.440
But I'd gotten to this age where I was doing all of these things to make my health better, but I was still choosing to drink alcohol every once in a while.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.319
And I just wasn't feeling good when I drank alcohol.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.960
The next day I'd kind of feel off, I wouldn't sleep well.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:44.880
And so I asked myself, why am I doing this if it's not really giving me any benefit?
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:46.960
It's really just giving me harm.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:49.039
And I stopped.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:57.119
And I was a little worried about it because you travel, you have social events, and people, you know, make judgments of people not drinking alcohol.
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:58.799
Like, are you an alcoholic?
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:00.480
Are you what's wrong with you?
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.759
Are you whatever?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:09.119
And so I was a little worried about those judgments, but I realized, do I really care what other people think?
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.440
And and once I just told them, like, hey, I don't drink, I'm on this wellness kick.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.599
People were like, oh, okay, cool, good for you.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.039
You know, and it really ended up not being this hot topic, right?
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:24.079
Or it would work itself into a positive conversation where somebody would be like, Oh, tell me more about your wellness.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.319
And then I felt like I was able to help impact them and their decision making on their wellness.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:29.200
Yes.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.680
Sometimes I find when there's pushback, it's just because the other person is insecure about being judged for, in this case, drinking.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.240
So, you know, like you're saying you don't drink, they're worried that you're judging them for drinking.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:47.039
But if you bring it back to you and you're like, no, I'm just on this wellness kick, then it takes the pressure off of them.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.440
They can still do whatever they want, no judgment.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:50.960
Right, exactly.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:51.920
Yeah.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:27:04.799
Now, I know you said when you first started out, your initial relationship didn't work, but you are married to another law enforcement officer, correct?
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:05.759
I am.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:08.160
And how long have you guys been together?
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.640
We have been together 21 years.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.839
Amazing.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:14.720
Two cops married to each other that have lasted.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:15.680
Yes.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:22.079
My husband and I have been together 15 years, so um almost I'm catching up slowly, yes.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.200
Oh did you guys meet at work?
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:32.720
We met in college, we went to undergrad together, but he uh he and I had different college experiences.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:38.000
As I stated before, I got two bachelor's degrees in three years.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.720
I was working up to four jobs at a time to put myself through college because of my rough upbringing.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.480
I didn't have a support system helping pay for college, I had to pay for it myself.
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.400
Or he had more of the traditional college experience.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:59.759
So we were in the same major, but he was able to do all of that, you know, college friend party experience, that college life, and I didn't have that.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:06.240
And so I knew him when we were in college, but we didn't hang out or anything because I didn't hang out with people in college.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:23.279
Um, and then when I got hired by my agency, a mutual friend reminded us that we knew each other and put us in contact so that I could get advice about the academy because he had been through the academy only less than a year and a half before I went through.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.799
So I could have a point of contact to say, what should I expect?
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.880
How many pairs of black socks do I need?
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.640
Those kinds of questions, right?
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:31.359
Yes.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:39.119
So we um we were in touch while I was in the academy, but just as friends.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:50.079
And then when I got out of the academy, I was assigned to what we call an APA, which is like your beat or your zone, and we were right up next to each other.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:55.599
And so he started following me around and uh wore me down, and the rest is history.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:06.960
I love that so much because you know, speaking of statistics and law enforcement, marriage is not one of our best statistics, unfortunately.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:18.000
How have you guys navigated both of you in first responder work and the chaotic schedules and all of the stress that comes along with that?
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:19.920
So a couple things.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:25.039
One is we have allowed each other to be autonomous at work.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:33.359
We try not to um butt into the other person's work business unless the other person asks specifically, like, can I have advice about this?
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:39.359
Because sometimes you come home and you just want a safe place to vent, and you're not looking for somebody to solve the problem.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.519
You are just looking for a safe outlet.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:41.920
Okay.
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:47.519
So I don't know if you've seen the video, it's not about the nail or the girl has the nail.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:48.079
Yes.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.640
I actually play that in peer support.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:51.519
Perfect.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.000
It's such a good video, it's so poignant.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:59.359
Um, and so we'll say, like, is this about the nail or is this a safe place to vent?
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:05.359
Because we never want to insert ourselves in solving other person's problems, especially if they're not asking, right?
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.559
Because then there could be resentment depending on how you framed it, or Monday morning quarterbacking the other person.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:14.000
And so that's one of our support mechanisms.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:21.759
Another thing that we have done that is untraditional, but it works for us, and we are really happy about it, is we have separate bedrooms.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:35.920
Sleep is so important to us, and his call-out schedule, my calls I get in the middle of the night, what time he likes to go to bed and wake up, how he likes to sleep, room temperature, blankets, all of that stuff.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:38.240
We, you know, like, why do you sleep with your spouse?
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:39.759
Because everybody sleeps with their spouse.
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:45.920
And it got to a point where we realized, like, hey, is it gonna be healthier for us to sleep in separate bedrooms?
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.880
So we've been sleeping in separate bedrooms for five years, and it's absolutely amazing.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:52.319
We love each other just as much.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:58.640
We are just as connected, but we are both better human beings individually because we both get way better sleep.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.160
I love that.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:01.359
Yeah.
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.079
So and go ahead, I'm sorry.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:09.119
No, so it's untraditional, but it works for us, and other people might want to consider it.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:10.240
That's it, right?
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:22.799
Because, and then there's no, you know, sometimes it's like you wake up the next day and there's resentment towards the other person for whatever, because you know, your sleep schedules or your temperatures or all of the different variables don't line up.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.519
So it's okay to have different dietary preferences, different sleep preferences.
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.559
Yes, yeah, it is a little untraditional.
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.640
People think like, are you guys okay in your marriage?
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:33.680
Like, what's wrong with you?
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.200
Why do you sleep in separate bedrooms?
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:42.799
But then when I explain it, it's really for wellness of both of us, and it works just fine, and we're the strongest, happiest we've ever been together.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:44.960
It's just sleep, right?
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:46.720
Exactly.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:56.079
Yeah, how has it been raising a family with um you know, on the job?
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:03.839
Well, our raising a family is a German shepherd and a Pomeranian, and so our our kids are very well adjusted.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:13.759
We chose not to have children, it was just a personal choice of us that we decided nope, that's not for us, and so we are perfectly fine with that.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.359
And your schedules overlap so that the dogs aren't like do they get separation anxiety or anything like that?
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:21.119
Because mine does.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.880
Oh, poor little thing.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:31.759
No, our dogs are really they're great, they're well adjusted, they're happy little fur babies, uh, especially given that one is uh 100 pounds and the other one's seven pounds.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:38.880
Uh, the seven pounder is the boss, and uh it's actually they have a cute little dichotomy, little little relationship.
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.440
They're perfect.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:43.759
Isn't it so funny?
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.920
Yes, yeah, yes.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:33:09.599
Your passion for wellness and your passion for leadership and affecting change, has that spilled over to other, I'm sure it has, other coworkers that you've had, whether they've been subordinates or same rank, you know, how do you feel like the culture of wellness and law enforcement has changed since you started?
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:11.119
I I do.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:22.000
And in my agency, one of the things that we have done is really remove the stigma of, hey, raising the flag, like I have a problem or I need help.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.640
And so I think that's really good.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.480
We've changed our how our department psychologist operates.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:37.759
We've changed, we've added um chaplains, we've expanded our peer support system, we've added the Cortico app.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.680
And so there's a lot of things our agency does to kind of put wellness first.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:58.720
We've started really trying to focus more on physical fitness, too, in having um executives in our agency go to the academy and work out with the cadets so the cadets understand this is a lifelong choice of choosing to be fit.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:05.039
You are getting into a career where you are going to age every year, but the bad guys stay the same age.
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:13.760
And so you have to keep up with your fitness so that you um have the best advantage when you're on the road.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.400
I that's amazing.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:17.760
I've never heard that before.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:23.360
So the executives actually go back and work out with recruits coming into the academy.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:29.119
Yes, I just posted uh on my LinkedIn one of the last times that we did that.
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:40.639
And so not all of the executives, but the ex it's highly encouraged that that everybody does, but those executives that are fit enough to be able to keep up will do different workouts with the with the cadets at the academy.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:48.000
It's really encouraging and it's nice for them to see uh for us to see them as humans and for them to see us as humans too.
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:56.079
I really love that because it encourages executives to stay fit so that they can go back and work out with recruits.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.679
And like you said, it levels the playing field because everybody's just human beings in that moment.
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:16.000
And then it it also for the recruits speaks to the importance it seeing the executives how you know take it seriously makes them want to take there's more buy-in at the recruit level.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:24.880
Absolutely, and we make sure that everybody's dressed the same that day, so we all buy the same t-shirts that are matching from our memorial foundation.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.239
So then the t-shirts go to help the families of the fallen.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.480
So it's really like overall, really good for our agency.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.039
That's um, yeah, that's amazing.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:44.320
It sounds like it's such a positive morale booster, and then it spills over into you know the foundation too.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.760
So it's like you can feel good about working out and and doing something good too.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.320
Absolutely.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:08.960
Have you ever reached a point where you start to feel yourself slipping a little bit with when it comes to self-care or maybe stress from work starts to get a little bit overwhelming and you start to feel like physical symptoms in your body?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.360
So this is what I call with my husband.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.679
Uh, and it's funny because we had this conversation before this new country song just came out.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:24.000
There's a country song that talks about like when you're nine, like when you're at 10%, I'll be your 90%, right?
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:29.760
And so my husband and I have found that we are better communicators if we know what we're gonna get from the other person.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.159
So on most days, can we be 50-50?
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:32.800
Yes.
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:41.440
But on a day that's extremely stressful for one of us, we will start out our first conversation saying, hey, I'm at a 25 right now, or I'm at a 10.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:46.320
And if the other person has the capacity to fill in the rest, right?
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.639
Like if I'm at a 25 and he's like, okay, I got you, I can be a 75 today.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:52.159
We're like, okay, cool.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.360
Because I know that I'm probably not going to be my best self to him because guess who we're the meanest to?
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:59.360
The people that we live with, right?
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:06.320
And so being able to communicate and let him know, I know, like, hello, I know I'm not my best self today.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:16.159
If he's also not his best self, then we kind of like just give each other space and be very kind and patient with each other and don't, you know, poke the bear, right?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:22.559
Or if one of us is um doing great and the other person is struggling, then the other person picks up the slack.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:27.519
And so I mean, we're all human, nobody's perfect, everybody has those bad days.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:39.679
But I think being able to realize it, admit it, and then communicate that with the person in your life that you trust so that you can then self-regulate and get back to your homeostasis, I think is what is important.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:38:03.199
I I love there's so many things that you said there because it speaks to how important communication is in a relationship, how we can, as law enforcement or any first responder, communicate to the people that we love, listen, I had a rough day, you know, without having to say it, like I'm at 10%, I'm at 25%.
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:04.719
Like it's been a day.
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.480
I don't really want to talk about it.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.000
Just know that, like, you know, this is how you can support me.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.519
Because the people that love us, like you said, we we tend to be the meanest to, and all they want to do is support us.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:26.960
So that's such a great way of allowing somebody to support you and also, you know, keeping boundaries about what you need.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:28.639
Absolutely.
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.119
Yeah, you reframe that really well.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:33.599
I love that.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:37.199
If you what so what is a small thing?
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:42.719
And I know we talked about nutrition, wellness, supplements, sleep, movement.
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:48.800
What's like one small change that a first responder can do today to start taking care of themselves?
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:59.760
Because a lot of times it's like, I'm gonna track my nutrition and I'm gonna work out for an hour every day, and they want to like go all in and it's not manageable, it's not feasible or sustainable long term.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:14.239
It's it is hard because you're saying it exactly right, is that when somebody gets to a point where they're so unwell, then they think that they have to become well in all of those different categories, and then they end up giving up because it's too much to tackle all at once.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:21.519
If I'm going to encourage somebody to do one thing, the thing that I encourage them to do is move their body.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.880
So all of us have time to find a way to move our body.
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:46.639
And one of the things that I have invested in that's a really easy way to move your body and doesn't take up much space in your home, is really inexpensive, is those little mini trampolines that your grandma had in the 80s, the little, the, the mini ones, the little you're on it by yourself.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.079
You can get one on Amazon for a couple hundred bucks.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.199
Even if you live in an apartment, you can have it in it'll fit in your apartment.
00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:06.719
And when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is move my body, get that lymphatic system draining, and you get an automatic dopamine hit from that.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.000
And I I wake up 15 minutes earlier than normal.
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:16.320
I have my clean electrolytes, my apple cider vinegar, and my uh supplements.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:26.639
And then I start the coffee brewing and I bounce on the trampoline and watch whatever show I want for 15 minutes, and then no matter what, I've moved my body that day.
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.760
All of us can find 15 minutes in the day to move their body, whatever time of day it is.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.480
And then when I get home at night, I always try to do like a long workout at night.
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:44.719
But if I can't, because the day has gone completely crazy, I feel better that I at least did that 15 minutes of movement in the morning.
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:55.039
So I feel like that's a good first start that will cause a lot of positive things to yourself, to your mental well-being, to your physical well-being, to your, to your body.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.679
Um, that's my first recommendation for people.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:58.559
I love that.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.280
Stacking the wins right from the beginning of the day.
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:07.679
Because, like you said, even if the rest of the day goes downhill, you're like, well, at least I kept my promise to myself.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.880
I did what I said I was gonna do, and I moved my body.
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:16.639
And then the ripple effect that that the movement has, you know, spills out into the rest of the day.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.519
Absolutely.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.599
And there's a lot of like fitness nutrition people that say, earn your first meal.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.480
Well, jumping on a mini trapoline or going on a walk.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:28.639
If you live in an apartment, go to the you know, treadmill, go outside if you can.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.280
Obviously, you talked about natural light and fresh air.
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.599
If you can go outside and walk for 15 minutes, just do something when you wake up for 15 minutes.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.360
Big recommendation.
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:39.599
That's a great starting point.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:40.320
Thank you.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.960
I really appreciate you being here, especially.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.920
I know it's been a day, so thank you so much for making the time.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.840
Sometimes these topics get a little bit heavy, and I always like to end on a high note.
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.639
So, what is your favorite karaoke song?
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.920
I am a horrible singer.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:01.920
Uh, I am one of those people that will sing my heart out with passion, but nobody wants to listen to me sing.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.599
So I have found that I am fairly good at rapping.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:08.559
So, salt and pepper, what a man.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.480
That is my karaoke song.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.440
Oh, that's a good one.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.400
I love that.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:13.599
That's great.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.519
Thank you so much for your time.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:23.360
Thank you for being here and all of your, you know, wisdom and your passion for wellness and leadership and all of the things.
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:25.519
Where can people connect with you?
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.000
The best place to connect with me is LinkedIn.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:32.800
And I really appreciate all of those connections because I love learning from everyone.
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:39.840
I try to post routinely and so people can get to know me and have little nuggets of maybe those little aha moments.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:42.639
And I love getting those aha moments from other people too.
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:50.079
So please reach out to me on LinkedIn and then if we connect, um, then we can DM if anybody has any other questions.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:50.800
Awesome.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:56.239
And I'll I'll link your um LinkedIn profile in the show notes so people can just click on it and find you.
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:57.119
That's awesome.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.159
Thank you for doing that.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:00.719
You're welcome, and thank you for making the time.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.159
And thank you guys again for listening on another week of Outside the Line.
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:09.599
In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.280
Thank you so much for stepping outside the line with me today.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.599
If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing with a friend or to your social media network.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.719
And if you do, please tag me so I can reach out and thank you.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:28.880
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are personal opinions, not reflective of the host or guest department.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.599
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.199
If you're struggling with your mental health, please take professional health.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:36.639
Resources are available.
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:41.199
In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:10.800
Welcome to Outside the Line, a podcast with conversations about keeping cops anchored to what really matters life outside the thin blue line.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:25.280
I'm your host, Dina Campbell, an active duty NYPD detective on a mission to normalize conversations around resilience and mental health and help cops develop self-awareness and an identity outside their career so they can enjoy life and thrive in the real world.
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:26.399
Outside the line.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:49.280
It is absolutely my pleasure.
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:51.119
Thank you for inviting me today.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:57.439
Yeah, I came across your LinkedIn profile and I just loved your message.
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And I'm like, oh, I have to, I have to have her on.
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So I really appreciate you being here.
00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.840
How did you get started in law enforcement?
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:10.079
Uh, it's an interesting path for me that's unlike other people's paths.
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:13.280
I actually had a really, really rough upbringing.
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And so usually kids that have the kind of upbringing that I have end up turning out like their parents.
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And I just knew from an early age that I did not want to uh follow in their their foot footsteps.
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Uh both my parents are now deceased.
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Um, that's that happens.
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People end up not living as long of a life when they have those um, they make those hard life choices.
00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:51.359
But I I got turned on to an Anne Rule book, who um Ann Rule is a true crime author when I was only in fifth grade.
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And so the first the first real big book I read was Small Sacrifices by Anne Rule.
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That is not reading material that is recommended for a fifth grader, by the way.
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That is a story about Diane Downs and how she murdered one of her children and attempted to murder the other two.
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And I was just fascinated by the detectives and the work they did to put the case together and how they figured out because Anne was saying, because Diane was saying that a stranger tried to murder her children, but really the detectives were able to figure out that it was her, and it was so interesting to me.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:32.400
From that point forward, I just knew that I wanted to be an investigator.
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I wanted to solve crime.
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And so, even as early as middle school, when you get to choose a topic for a report, I was always choosing things like serial killers.
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:47.919
And uh as early as sixth grade, I got voted most likely to become a police officer.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:54.719
So I just one of those things where yeah, one of those things where I always knew I wanted to be a police officer.
00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:05.680
That's incredible because good on you for recognizing at an early age that you didn't have to repeat a cycle, that you there was another choice.
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:06.159
Yes.
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What drew you to that book initially?
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.520
Do you remember?
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:14.960
My mom was reading it, and I asked her if uh I could read it, and she said yes.
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Uh, I had a very untraditional childhood, like I said, I think most parents would say, No, honey, this is not for you.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:22.879
But she was like, sure.
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So she let me read it.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.000
And then from then on, I read several other Anne Rule books.
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That was my choice of reading, was true crime, even from a very young age.
00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.479
And how old were you when you went into the academy?
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:45.199
So I grew up in a really small town, and so I wanted to be a police officer, but I got really good grades in high school.
00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:54.319
And so my teachers told me, no, no, no, you're too smart to be a police officer, your grades are too high, you need to do something else.
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So I convinced myself, okay, I will then be a forensic pathologist.
00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:08.639
So at the end of high school, my senior year of high school, being that it was a small town, we had one funeral home in town.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:17.839
And so I was able to do a work study to get high school credit that was going towards being a um a professional.
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So I went to the funeral home as my you know 17 to 18-year-old self, my senior year of high school, and said, I want to be a forensic pathologist.
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Can I help you with autopsies?
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And they said, No, they said, no, get out of here.
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And so then the next week I showed up and I'm like, here I am again.
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Did you change your mind?
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Can I help with autopsies?
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And they were like, What is wrong with this child?
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No.
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And they sent me away.
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And I came back the next week and they're like, wow, she's really serious about this.
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That she's tenacious, she's got initiative.
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So they hired me to do the work study.
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So I started assisting with autopsies and bombings and um preparing people for their funerals when I was in high school.
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And I ended up working that job throughout college as one of my college jobs.
00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:15.519
So once I graduated high school, I went to a private school and was pre-med for one quarter and realized why am I doing this for other people when I really want to be a police officer?
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:21.199
So I transferred to a state school to save money because I had to put myself through college.
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:34.160
Um, so double-majored psychology and law and justice, and was able to get both of those degrees in three years flat by taking heavy, heavy loads, 18 to 24 credits a quarter to put myself through college.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:39.199
So that's how I knew I wanted to like really invest in being a police officer.
00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:43.439
That's a really heavy load, 24 credits a semester.
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Good on you for it, it's not, especially at such a young age, to have the awareness that you're like, why am I living for other people?
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Like, even if those other people mean well, why am I doing something because they want me to do it when it's not what I really want to do?
00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.240
Yeah, thank you for saying that and pointing that out.
00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:04.959
Yeah.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.040
So we didn't, you go.
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:19.120
So once I graduated college, because I was in a small town, I was waiting for there to be an opening in that small town police department because my world was so small, right?
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I didn't realize there's this gigantic world out there.
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So I waited and waited and waited for there to be an opening in that police department, and there wasn't one.
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And one night um we ended up going to a scene with uh another large agency, and I realized, hmm, maybe I should apply to that large agency.
00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:50.399
And so I did, and that's why I ended up with the agency that I'm at, and um, I got hired when I was 24 years old, and now I'm almost 24 years in, so you can do the math to figure out how old I am.
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:54.079
Um, and that's that's kind of how my path started.
00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:55.920
That's amazing.
00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:15.439
Now, because you grew up basically wanting to become a cop from a very young age, when you went into the academy, did you find that you were able to maintain an identity outside of law enforcement, or because it was something that was always in your mind, did you just jump in with both feet?
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.399
I feel like I was able to maintain my identity outside of law enforcement.
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I was the only girl in my whole academy class.
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It was the first time in my agency's history that they had ever had only one girl in the academy class.
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And so I was different to begin with, right?
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And so I didn't feel, I mean, I think a lot of female officers feel like they need to assimilate to some degree because at least in my agency, there weren't very many females.
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And so that was like struggling with my identity and proving to the boys that I could do the job and that I was just as tough as them and just as resilient, and I could accomplish just as much.
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And it took me a while to realize that just being myself was enough, that I didn't have to try to put on a persona that wasn't me and wasn't authentic.
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:18.959
And so um because I had outside friends, I never really had that identity where everything revolved around being a police officer.
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And I don't know, again, if it's because I was the only girl in my class, but I just I never really had had that be a problem for me.
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And that's incredible too, because a lot of times what happens is the friendships that we have outside of law enforcement kind of fall by the wayside because we feel like, oh, well, they don't understand the job that I do, or you know, I'm tired of canceling plans because I get hit for overtime at the last minute.
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You know what I mean?
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All of those things, those relationships end up suffering.
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I'm so glad that wasn't the case.
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So, how long, how far into your career did you become an investigator?
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Because that's what you initially wanted to do.
00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:16.240
Yeah, so just going back to touch on one of the things that you just mentioned, um, my personal relationship did suffer because the man that I was personally involved with at that time did not understand why I wanted to be in law enforcement.
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:21.600
He didn't understand that all my coworkers were men, he didn't understand that therefore my friends were men.
00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:26.240
And so it was just a very big disconnect between us.
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And so it ended up that relationship was not able to flourish under those, those situations or under that situation, which was fine because it wasn't meant to be, right?
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:53.759
So, um, so in my agency, I I am so glad that the small agency didn't work out because I ended up with a very large agency that had those opportunities where you could work your way into detectives, and then my agency also doesn't have a detective rotation.
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Some smaller agencies, you can be a detective for two years or three years, and then you have to rotate back out and go to the road.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:13.600
So I worked the road in Seattle in a very busy metropolitan area, and then I was able to get detective in Tacoma, which is also a very busy metropolitan area.
00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:21.600
And so that was after seven years of working the road, I was able to work my way into detectives for my first detective role.
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:22.879
That's amazing.
00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:24.559
And how long did you do that?
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:33.200
Very short period of time, less than a year before I was already on the sergeant's promotion list and I didn't want to take the sergeant's test again.
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:43.519
So I ended up um promoting to sergeant and then ended up working my way into a detective sergeant position in internal affairs after that.
00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:52.639
What influenced, because I know you're now an executive, what influenced your decision to take those supervisory tests and move up the ranks?
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I think there was a couple things that influenced the decision.
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One is I'm really ambitious to a fault, and I really like helping people.
00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:13.919
And so I noticed changes that I thought should be made in the agency, and I realized I couldn't influence the change unless I was in those ranks to be able to do it.
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:24.639
And then also I saw how people were being cared for by their supervisors, and I cared deeply for my followers, my team members.
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:32.000
And so I wanted to love them in a way that others weren't being loved by their chain of command.
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:41.600
And so I knew the only way that I could do it was by promoting so that I could have that bigger span of influence and that bigger change.
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:44.399
And then part of it is like, if not me, then who?
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:52.879
And I looked around at some of my peers that I did not want to work for and thought, well, I better, I better take the test.
00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:54.799
That's awesome.
00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.200
And how has your experience been?
00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:08.559
I know you were the only female in your whole academy class, but as you move up the ranks, how has it been as a female in an executive position in like a predominantly male-dominated field?
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.080
Um, I am comfortable in my skin.
00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:13.360
I'm comfortable with who I am.
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:14.960
I'm a very confident person.
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:19.840
And so uh are there times that I look around the room and I'm the only female in the room?
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:20.320
Yes.
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:21.519
Does that bother me?
00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:22.080
No.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.320
I don't believe in promoting people just to check a box.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.200
I think that we have to have merit.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.480
We have to invest in people so that they can be successful.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:42.799
Because I've seen too many times where an underrepresented person from an underrepresented population gets promoted prematurely and they fail.
00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:47.600
And it's bad for that underrepresented community, it's bad for the culture of the agency.
00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:49.919
It just doesn't do any good.
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:56.080
So I think that representation matters when that representation is competent.
00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:59.200
That's such a great answer.
00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:04.639
I am among, you know, a similar mindset that I believe that everything should be merit-based.
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:11.360
And I also love that yes, we're women in a male-dominated industry, but that doesn't have to be a hindrance.
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.480
That doesn't, you know what I mean?
00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:17.039
That doesn't have to, it's it doesn't have to bother you if you don't let it.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:35.279
It's just I think a lot in my perception or my perspective and my experience is there are a lot of women that put their own emotion on me and they think, oh my gosh, you must, you know, they, you know, however they're feeling, they assume I'm feeling the same way.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.000
Just you just know that it doesn't bother you.
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.480
Well, if it bothers them, they assume it bothers me.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:53.200
And so having those conversations with women of it, it I feel like some women think it's not okay to say that you're unbothered, that you're for some reason not supporting other women if you if you aren't.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:57.039
And it's a it's a different, it's an interesting dichotomy.
00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:58.320
Yes.
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:06.799
So I'm sure that there have been heavy jobs, heavy cases that you've had throughout your career.
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:19.200
And along the way, you've probably had hopefully somebody to lean on to talk about those things with, whether it was a coworker, somebody on the job, or somebody outside.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:23.279
As you move up the ranks, you know, there's that saying it's lonely at the top.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.639
Do you find that to be true?
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.919
Are there less people that you can lean on?
00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:43.600
Yeah, so I feel like I my gift to society is the carnage and the pain and the worst of the worst that we see society do to each other.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:49.519
I can go to that scene and I can investigate it, and I don't carry that baggage with me.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:15:00.879
I'm I'm really good at saying I can't help what helped happened, but I can help like what I can't help what happened in the past, but I can help what's happening in the future.
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.840
I can do a thorough investigation, I can give closure.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.200
And so I am I am not harmed by carnage that I see at work.
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:16.639
It's my gift to society to be able to go to that scene and and go on my merry way and conduct the investigation.
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:28.240
So there aren't scenes from my past that haunted me, but there are infighting drama in the workplace that bothers me.
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:32.320
And so that's more of the stress that I carry is why can't we all just get along?
00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:33.440
Why can't we love each other?
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:34.720
Why can't we support each other?
00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:39.200
There's enough harm from the outside coming in.
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.080
Why are we causing harm from within our agency?
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:50.000
And so those are the things that I need more peer support outlets for rather than you know, other harms.
00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.960
We all have different tolerance levels, we all have different things that that trigger us.
00:15:55.200 --> 00:16:06.159
And for me, those are the things that I try to make sure that I'm making sure I'm healthy about is those those kind of relationships.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:12.000
That's so important because you said a few things that I want to touch on.
00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:16.799
So the first thing is when you respond to a scene, you can't change what happened.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:23.440
You can only choose how to make that person, you know, how to leave that person in better shape than you found them.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.639
And that speaks a lot to resilience and controlling what you can control, right?
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:30.080
Because that's all we can do.
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.840
I know you're also very into wellness.
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:35.120
You mentioned peer support.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:42.240
As a peer supporter myself, a lot of things that I deal with are again infighting.
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:48.080
And it's not really the the community or the people on the street that stress officers out.
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:54.159
It's it's the internal policies and the infighting and the nitpicking and all of that stuff.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:55.840
I agree.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.919
I know you're also big into wellness.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.440
Is that something that you've carried throughout your career, or is that something that you developed as you went along?
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.799
So I've always been really into wellness in general.
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:19.440
But as I've gotten older, I've turned more and more into a self-proclaimed proclaimed crazy hippie with regard to wellness.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:32.319
I feel like the more informed you are, then the more like I have curated my life to live in a stage of the most optimal health that I can curate for myself.
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.480
And so that is overall wellness in all kinds of different ways.
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:44.319
So I've always been fit, I've always ate healthy, but now that I'm more informed, I've taken those things to the next level.
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:59.519
So with nutrition, really trying to focus on eating whole foods and understanding how whole foods in your system are better for your wellness than eating processed foods, for example.
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:08.240
And then how the domino, if you're eating a bunch of junk, how that domino effect harms so many systems of your body, right?
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:15.200
And just really understanding how nutrition affects wellness, your overall wellness, right?
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:16.720
Your metabolic health, all of that.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.079
And then just being active is a really good step stress relief.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.480
I've done um so many different fitness programs over the years.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:29.359
And right now I'm 48 years old, as you can tell from doing the math earlier.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:35.519
So I'm really trying to lift weights and keep my flexibility limber.
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:50.240
So I do yoga and weightlifting to maintain that one, that outlet for stress, and then just making sure I have good body mass and that I'm really um fit as I grow older so that I can have the most optimal health.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.680
I also um study stoicism.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:06.240
That's my outlet for stress receive is like the stoic principles and really framing those bad things that happen in life, of even like um Jocko saying, okay, this bad thing happened, good, right?
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:25.119
So that's my own resilience in in studying stoicism for mental health, making sure that I have time to hang out with friends or do the things that I enjoy, being out in nature, those ways to like, it's like kind of mind, body, soul.
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.799
And then I I fast regularly too.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:36.319
Um, I I do 24 to 36 hours almost weekly and up to 72 hours every other month.
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.160
And I feel like that helps like with a lot of different resets.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:53.920
Your gut health, your dopamine reset, your immunity reset, um HGH, autophagy, all of those things have really helped push my wellness over the line.
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.319
So I feel like I'm doing a lot of different things with supplements that just help my overall health.
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.240
So I am extreme.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:16.640
Again, self-proclaimed proclaimed crazy hippie, um, not for everybody, but that's my choice in making sure that I'm surviving this career the best I can and that I move on to the next chapter as well as I can be in all of those aspects of life.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:25.839
And that's really important because we are wellness has become such a buzzword, first of all, especially in the law enforcement space.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:35.200
Like everybody, not everybody, but people claim to be like self-proclaimed wellness experts and influencers and all of these things.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:37.920
And it's good that we're having these conversations.
00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.799
However, sometimes there's almost too much information out there.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.440
And the important thing to remember is that it's highly individualized.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.799
So what works for one person may not work for somebody else.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:59.519
It's not about checking the same boxes as somebody, it's really about taking care of yourself in a well-rounded, complete way.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.559
Yes, I'm so glad that you said that.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:09.200
That's something I'm I say routinely, but I missed is that sometimes people will say, Well, tell me all the things that you do.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.559
And I tell them, all the things that I do might not be good for you.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.960
You need to figure out what works for you.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:22.480
Just like nutrition is there are foods that are nutritious, but different people have different tolerances or different tastes.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.960
So I can't give you, I mean, I can share with you every single thing I eat in a day, but it might not be what's best for you.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.039
This has taken me years again to curate what makes my body feel good and what makes me feel good.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:45.519
So figuring out for yourself, there's a lot of different things that you can do for your wellness and trying to curate it for yourself and just be open-minded of all of those things and try it.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:59.039
And I mean, the goal really, especially in a law enforcement career, is not just to make it to retirement, but to thrive past, you know, like years and years after retirement.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759
The reality is.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:10.079
If we don't take care of ourselves along the way, we're only looking at five to seven years, maybe 10 years if you're lucky, past retirement.
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.200
Yeah, those statistics are really scary.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.720
Yeah, we can't wait.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:19.599
It, you know, saying, all right, I'm gonna wait until I retire to start taking care of myself.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.519
You're already behind the eight ball.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.119
But you know, the best day to start was yesterday.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.200
The second best day is today.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.000
Right.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.359
I think another thing that we didn't touch on that's so important is sleep, right?
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.680
Yeah, that was our last point.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.119
Yeah, they're trying to have that really good sleep routine pattern.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:57.119
And even if it's a bad shift, waking up, going to bed and waking up the same time every day to keep that sleep pattern, because uh studies I've read have shown it's not necessarily the number of hours of sleep you get, it's the it's that cycle time that you get, right?
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.119
Waking up and going to bed at the same time every day, if at all possible.
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.319
So uh some people might be listening and saying, Oh, that's cute.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:17.920
You're an executive, you get to to work business hours, but even when I wasn't an executive and I work shift work, I still tried to have that that routine, that sleep routine, the best I could.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.119
And whenever I'm speaking on the importance of sleep, I get a lot of chuckles too.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:24.559
They're like, Yeah, that's cute.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:32.079
But it's not really about, I mean, ideally, right, a full night's sleep is what, six to eight hours.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:52.000
It's not so much about the quantity as it is the quality, because if you only have four hours, then you know, scrolling on your phone for 30, 40 minutes isn't gonna do yourself any favors because you're not getting the maximum amount of quality sleep that you could possibly be getting.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.200
Right.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.960
And there's a lot of studies now about what are the best sleep supplements to take, right?
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.160
Um, you know, melatonin isn't necessarily good for you because then your body won't produce it on its own.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:12.240
And all of the scary things, I know a lot of people take the Benadryl kind of drugs, and how that's really bad for your blood brain barrier.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:21.279
And so, what are those supplements that you can get on that you um you are deficient that would help you get regular sleep?
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:38.240
And so I I take those um magnesium, anisotol, glycine, L-thhyinine, that sleep stack every night before I go to bed, so that I can put myself in the best position possible to get that really important sleep.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:50.400
Yeah, and then supplements are great and we need them, and they're designed to work in tandem with other things that we're already doing.
00:24:50.559 --> 00:25:07.839
So, like you said, getting exercise during the day, getting sunlight, you know, good nutrition, all of these things play a part in sleep, which helps us recover, you know, and makes us better, not just as law enforcement officers, but better, well-rounded human beings.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:09.119
Right.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:16.960
Another, excuse me, another personal choice I made over the last uh couple of years is I chose to stop drinking alcohol altogether.
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:23.200
I had never uh, I'd only been a social drinker, I never had an alcohol problem or anything like that.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:33.440
But I'd gotten to this age where I was doing all of these things to make my health better, but I was still choosing to drink alcohol every once in a while.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.319
And I just wasn't feeling good when I drank alcohol.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.960
The next day I'd kind of feel off, I wouldn't sleep well.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:44.880
And so I asked myself, why am I doing this if it's not really giving me any benefit?
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:46.960
It's really just giving me harm.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:49.039
And I stopped.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:57.119
And I was a little worried about it because you travel, you have social events, and people, you know, make judgments of people not drinking alcohol.
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:58.799
Like, are you an alcoholic?
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:00.480
Are you what's wrong with you?
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.759
Are you whatever?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:09.119
And so I was a little worried about those judgments, but I realized, do I really care what other people think?
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.440
And and once I just told them, like, hey, I don't drink, I'm on this wellness kick.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.599
People were like, oh, okay, cool, good for you.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.039
You know, and it really ended up not being this hot topic, right?
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:24.079
Or it would work itself into a positive conversation where somebody would be like, Oh, tell me more about your wellness.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.319
And then I felt like I was able to help impact them and their decision making on their wellness.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:29.200
Yes.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.680
Sometimes I find when there's pushback, it's just because the other person is insecure about being judged for, in this case, drinking.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.240
So, you know, like you're saying you don't drink, they're worried that you're judging them for drinking.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:47.039
But if you bring it back to you and you're like, no, I'm just on this wellness kick, then it takes the pressure off of them.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.440
They can still do whatever they want, no judgment.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:50.960
Right, exactly.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:51.920
Yeah.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:27:04.799
Now, I know you said when you first started out, your initial relationship didn't work, but you are married to another law enforcement officer, correct?
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:05.759
I am.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:08.160
And how long have you guys been together?
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.640
We have been together 21 years.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.839
Amazing.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:14.720
Two cops married to each other that have lasted.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:15.680
Yes.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:22.079
My husband and I have been together 15 years, so um almost I'm catching up slowly, yes.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.200
Oh did you guys meet at work?
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:32.720
We met in college, we went to undergrad together, but he uh he and I had different college experiences.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:38.000
As I stated before, I got two bachelor's degrees in three years.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.720
I was working up to four jobs at a time to put myself through college because of my rough upbringing.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.480
I didn't have a support system helping pay for college, I had to pay for it myself.
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.400
Or he had more of the traditional college experience.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:59.759
So we were in the same major, but he was able to do all of that, you know, college friend party experience, that college life, and I didn't have that.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:06.240
And so I knew him when we were in college, but we didn't hang out or anything because I didn't hang out with people in college.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:23.279
Um, and then when I got hired by my agency, a mutual friend reminded us that we knew each other and put us in contact so that I could get advice about the academy because he had been through the academy only less than a year and a half before I went through.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.799
So I could have a point of contact to say, what should I expect?
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.880
How many pairs of black socks do I need?
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.640
Those kinds of questions, right?
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:31.359
Yes.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:39.119
So we um we were in touch while I was in the academy, but just as friends.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:50.079
And then when I got out of the academy, I was assigned to what we call an APA, which is like your beat or your zone, and we were right up next to each other.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:55.599
And so he started following me around and uh wore me down, and the rest is history.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:06.960
I love that so much because you know, speaking of statistics and law enforcement, marriage is not one of our best statistics, unfortunately.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:18.000
How have you guys navigated both of you in first responder work and the chaotic schedules and all of the stress that comes along with that?
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:19.920
So a couple things.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:25.039
One is we have allowed each other to be autonomous at work.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:33.359
We try not to um butt into the other person's work business unless the other person asks specifically, like, can I have advice about this?
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:39.359
Because sometimes you come home and you just want a safe place to vent, and you're not looking for somebody to solve the problem.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.519
You are just looking for a safe outlet.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:41.920
Okay.
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:47.519
So I don't know if you've seen the video, it's not about the nail or the girl has the nail.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:48.079
Yes.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.640
I actually play that in peer support.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:51.519
Perfect.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.000
It's such a good video, it's so poignant.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:59.359
Um, and so we'll say, like, is this about the nail or is this a safe place to vent?
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:05.359
Because we never want to insert ourselves in solving other person's problems, especially if they're not asking, right?
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.559
Because then there could be resentment depending on how you framed it, or Monday morning quarterbacking the other person.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:14.000
And so that's one of our support mechanisms.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:21.759
Another thing that we have done that is untraditional, but it works for us, and we are really happy about it, is we have separate bedrooms.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:35.920
Sleep is so important to us, and his call-out schedule, my calls I get in the middle of the night, what time he likes to go to bed and wake up, how he likes to sleep, room temperature, blankets, all of that stuff.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:38.240
We, you know, like, why do you sleep with your spouse?
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:39.759
Because everybody sleeps with their spouse.
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:45.920
And it got to a point where we realized, like, hey, is it gonna be healthier for us to sleep in separate bedrooms?
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.880
So we've been sleeping in separate bedrooms for five years, and it's absolutely amazing.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:52.319
We love each other just as much.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:58.640
We are just as connected, but we are both better human beings individually because we both get way better sleep.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.160
I love that.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:01.359
Yeah.
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.079
So and go ahead, I'm sorry.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:09.119
No, so it's untraditional, but it works for us, and other people might want to consider it.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:10.240
That's it, right?
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:22.799
Because, and then there's no, you know, sometimes it's like you wake up the next day and there's resentment towards the other person for whatever, because you know, your sleep schedules or your temperatures or all of the different variables don't line up.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.519
So it's okay to have different dietary preferences, different sleep preferences.
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.559
Yes, yeah, it is a little untraditional.
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.640
People think like, are you guys okay in your marriage?
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:33.680
Like, what's wrong with you?
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.200
Why do you sleep in separate bedrooms?
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:42.799
But then when I explain it, it's really for wellness of both of us, and it works just fine, and we're the strongest, happiest we've ever been together.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:44.960
It's just sleep, right?
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:46.720
Exactly.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:56.079
Yeah, how has it been raising a family with um you know, on the job?
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:03.839
Well, our raising a family is a German shepherd and a Pomeranian, and so our our kids are very well adjusted.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:13.759
We chose not to have children, it was just a personal choice of us that we decided nope, that's not for us, and so we are perfectly fine with that.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.359
And your schedules overlap so that the dogs aren't like do they get separation anxiety or anything like that?
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:21.119
Because mine does.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.880
Oh, poor little thing.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:31.759
No, our dogs are really they're great, they're well adjusted, they're happy little fur babies, uh, especially given that one is uh 100 pounds and the other one's seven pounds.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:38.880
Uh, the seven pounder is the boss, and uh it's actually they have a cute little dichotomy, little little relationship.
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.440
They're perfect.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:43.759
Isn't it so funny?
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.920
Yes, yeah, yes.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:33:09.599
Your passion for wellness and your passion for leadership and affecting change, has that spilled over to other, I'm sure it has, other coworkers that you've had, whether they've been subordinates or same rank, you know, how do you feel like the culture of wellness and law enforcement has changed since you started?
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:11.119
I I do.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:22.000
And in my agency, one of the things that we have done is really remove the stigma of, hey, raising the flag, like I have a problem or I need help.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.640
And so I think that's really good.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.480
We've changed our how our department psychologist operates.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:37.759
We've changed, we've added um chaplains, we've expanded our peer support system, we've added the Cortico app.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.680
And so there's a lot of things our agency does to kind of put wellness first.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:58.720
We've started really trying to focus more on physical fitness, too, in having um executives in our agency go to the academy and work out with the cadets so the cadets understand this is a lifelong choice of choosing to be fit.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:05.039
You are getting into a career where you are going to age every year, but the bad guys stay the same age.
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:13.760
And so you have to keep up with your fitness so that you um have the best advantage when you're on the road.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.400
I that's amazing.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:17.760
I've never heard that before.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:23.360
So the executives actually go back and work out with recruits coming into the academy.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:29.119
Yes, I just posted uh on my LinkedIn one of the last times that we did that.
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:40.639
And so not all of the executives, but the ex it's highly encouraged that that everybody does, but those executives that are fit enough to be able to keep up will do different workouts with the with the cadets at the academy.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:48.000
It's really encouraging and it's nice for them to see uh for us to see them as humans and for them to see us as humans too.
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:56.079
I really love that because it encourages executives to stay fit so that they can go back and work out with recruits.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.679
And like you said, it levels the playing field because everybody's just human beings in that moment.
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:16.000
And then it it also for the recruits speaks to the importance it seeing the executives how you know take it seriously makes them want to take there's more buy-in at the recruit level.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:24.880
Absolutely, and we make sure that everybody's dressed the same that day, so we all buy the same t-shirts that are matching from our memorial foundation.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.239
So then the t-shirts go to help the families of the fallen.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.480
So it's really like overall, really good for our agency.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.039
That's um, yeah, that's amazing.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:44.320
It sounds like it's such a positive morale booster, and then it spills over into you know the foundation too.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.760
So it's like you can feel good about working out and and doing something good too.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.320
Absolutely.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:08.960
Have you ever reached a point where you start to feel yourself slipping a little bit with when it comes to self-care or maybe stress from work starts to get a little bit overwhelming and you start to feel like physical symptoms in your body?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.360
So this is what I call with my husband.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.679
Uh, and it's funny because we had this conversation before this new country song just came out.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:24.000
There's a country song that talks about like when you're nine, like when you're at 10%, I'll be your 90%, right?
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:29.760
And so my husband and I have found that we are better communicators if we know what we're gonna get from the other person.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.159
So on most days, can we be 50-50?
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:32.800
Yes.
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:41.440
But on a day that's extremely stressful for one of us, we will start out our first conversation saying, hey, I'm at a 25 right now, or I'm at a 10.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:46.320
And if the other person has the capacity to fill in the rest, right?
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.639
Like if I'm at a 25 and he's like, okay, I got you, I can be a 75 today.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:52.159
We're like, okay, cool.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.360
Because I know that I'm probably not going to be my best self to him because guess who we're the meanest to?
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:59.360
The people that we live with, right?
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:06.320
And so being able to communicate and let him know, I know, like, hello, I know I'm not my best self today.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:16.159
If he's also not his best self, then we kind of like just give each other space and be very kind and patient with each other and don't, you know, poke the bear, right?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:22.559
Or if one of us is um doing great and the other person is struggling, then the other person picks up the slack.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:27.519
And so I mean, we're all human, nobody's perfect, everybody has those bad days.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:39.679
But I think being able to realize it, admit it, and then communicate that with the person in your life that you trust so that you can then self-regulate and get back to your homeostasis, I think is what is important.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:38:03.199
I I love there's so many things that you said there because it speaks to how important communication is in a relationship, how we can, as law enforcement or any first responder, communicate to the people that we love, listen, I had a rough day, you know, without having to say it, like I'm at 10%, I'm at 25%.
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:04.719
Like it's been a day.
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.480
I don't really want to talk about it.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.000
Just know that, like, you know, this is how you can support me.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.519
Because the people that love us, like you said, we we tend to be the meanest to, and all they want to do is support us.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:26.960
So that's such a great way of allowing somebody to support you and also, you know, keeping boundaries about what you need.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:28.639
Absolutely.
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.119
Yeah, you reframe that really well.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:33.599
I love that.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:37.199
If you what so what is a small thing?
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:42.719
And I know we talked about nutrition, wellness, supplements, sleep, movement.
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:48.800
What's like one small change that a first responder can do today to start taking care of themselves?
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:59.760
Because a lot of times it's like, I'm gonna track my nutrition and I'm gonna work out for an hour every day, and they want to like go all in and it's not manageable, it's not feasible or sustainable long term.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:14.239
It's it is hard because you're saying it exactly right, is that when somebody gets to a point where they're so unwell, then they think that they have to become well in all of those different categories, and then they end up giving up because it's too much to tackle all at once.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:21.519
If I'm going to encourage somebody to do one thing, the thing that I encourage them to do is move their body.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.880
So all of us have time to find a way to move our body.
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:46.639
And one of the things that I have invested in that's a really easy way to move your body and doesn't take up much space in your home, is really inexpensive, is those little mini trampolines that your grandma had in the 80s, the little, the, the mini ones, the little you're on it by yourself.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.079
You can get one on Amazon for a couple hundred bucks.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.199
Even if you live in an apartment, you can have it in it'll fit in your apartment.
00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:06.719
And when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is move my body, get that lymphatic system draining, and you get an automatic dopamine hit from that.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.000
And I I wake up 15 minutes earlier than normal.
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:16.320
I have my clean electrolytes, my apple cider vinegar, and my uh supplements.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:26.639
And then I start the coffee brewing and I bounce on the trampoline and watch whatever show I want for 15 minutes, and then no matter what, I've moved my body that day.
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.760
All of us can find 15 minutes in the day to move their body, whatever time of day it is.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.480
And then when I get home at night, I always try to do like a long workout at night.
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:44.719
But if I can't, because the day has gone completely crazy, I feel better that I at least did that 15 minutes of movement in the morning.
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:55.039
So I feel like that's a good first start that will cause a lot of positive things to yourself, to your mental well-being, to your physical well-being, to your, to your body.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.679
Um, that's my first recommendation for people.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:58.559
I love that.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.280
Stacking the wins right from the beginning of the day.
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:07.679
Because, like you said, even if the rest of the day goes downhill, you're like, well, at least I kept my promise to myself.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.880
I did what I said I was gonna do, and I moved my body.
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:16.639
And then the ripple effect that that the movement has, you know, spills out into the rest of the day.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.519
Absolutely.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.599
And there's a lot of like fitness nutrition people that say, earn your first meal.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.480
Well, jumping on a mini trapoline or going on a walk.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:28.639
If you live in an apartment, go to the you know, treadmill, go outside if you can.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.280
Obviously, you talked about natural light and fresh air.
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.599
If you can go outside and walk for 15 minutes, just do something when you wake up for 15 minutes.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.360
Big recommendation.
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:39.599
That's a great starting point.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:40.320
Thank you.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.960
I really appreciate you being here, especially.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.920
I know it's been a day, so thank you so much for making the time.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.840
Sometimes these topics get a little bit heavy, and I always like to end on a high note.
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.639
So, what is your favorite karaoke song?
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.920
I am a horrible singer.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:01.920
Uh, I am one of those people that will sing my heart out with passion, but nobody wants to listen to me sing.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.599
So I have found that I am fairly good at rapping.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:08.559
So, salt and pepper, what a man.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.480
That is my karaoke song.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.440
Oh, that's a good one.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.400
I love that.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:13.599
That's great.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.519
Thank you so much for your time.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:23.360
Thank you for being here and all of your, you know, wisdom and your passion for wellness and leadership and all of the things.
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:25.519
Where can people connect with you?
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.000
The best place to connect with me is LinkedIn.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:32.800
And I really appreciate all of those connections because I love learning from everyone.
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:39.840
I try to post routinely and so people can get to know me and have little nuggets of maybe those little aha moments.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:42.639
And I love getting those aha moments from other people too.
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:50.079
So please reach out to me on LinkedIn and then if we connect, um, then we can DM if anybody has any other questions.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:50.800
Awesome.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:56.239
And I'll I'll link your um LinkedIn profile in the show notes so people can just click on it and find you.
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:57.119
That's awesome.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.159
Thank you for doing that.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:00.719
You're welcome, and thank you for making the time.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.159
And thank you guys again for listening on another week of Outside the Line.
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:09.599
In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.280
Thank you so much for stepping outside the line with me today.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.599
If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing with a friend or to your social media network.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.719
And if you do, please tag me so I can reach out and thank you.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:28.880
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are personal opinions, not reflective of the host or guest department.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.599
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.199
If you're struggling with your mental health, please take professional health.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:36.639
Resources are available.
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:41.199
In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.
