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Jacob: Welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse
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Krukshank. I'm Jacob Hoyer here
with Julia Schmaltz, and we are
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still talking about big topics
out of Jesse and Julia's book,
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Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,
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Story, and Science. And you
know, guys, we've been talking
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on a previous episode about this
contrast between being and
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doing, and creating environments
where we can live from our
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identity, which is our being,
not our doing, which were these
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tasks and roles that we all take
on. Julia, you were saying
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recently, like, but at the end
of the day, there's still some
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stuff we have to do, and I think
I'm like, I'm picturing my dad
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in my mind when I say that
phrase, like, well, yeah, but
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you have to do something, and
and we're not telling people
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they should just like not do
stuff. Just sit and listen.
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Prayer is good, but sometimes
you have to get out of your
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prayer closet and go do
something. So, how would you
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speak to that concern that this
conversation around identity
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being overdoing just kind of
allows us to avoid
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accountability for the things we
actually have to do?
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Julia Schmaltz: When Jesus was
assigned identity by God at this
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baptism. He was told, "This is
my beloved Son in whom I am well
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pleased. Before he had done
anything, and I do think it's
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important for us to realize
Psalm 139. We're formed in our
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mother's womb, Jeremiah one. You
know, it talks about you know we
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are formed first, we are named
first by God, this part of us
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that is formed for eternity
exists out that exists outside
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of our even time, right? That's
what we're talking about when
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we're talking about identity.
But the practical question is
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that you asked is like, how do
we bring that into what we do?
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So Jesus never had an official
role or position. He was called
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a rabbi, but he was not
officially a rabbi named by the
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Pharisees. He was a rabbi by the
nature of the gifting that God
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had given him, the assignment
that God had given him, and then
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the role as being a teacher to a
group of disciples that were
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going to follow him into this
new way of of operating in the
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kingdom. And in Mark 115, it
says, the time is now, the
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kingdom is at hand. Repent and
believe the gospel, and then he
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proclaimed the good news, and he
says it is going to be good news
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for the poor. And he quotes from
Isaiah chapter 61. And this
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whole thing that happens in
Jesus's life, it's you know when
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you look at his life, you go,
okay, how do we live like Jesus?
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We live attuned to the spirit of
God, what he did was he was
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named by God. He eventually was
named by Peter too. When Peter
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says that you know you are the
Christ, the Son of the Living
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God, and and Jesus affirms Peter
and says you know flesh and
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blood has not declared this over
has not told you this has not
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revealed this to you. This is
this is from the spirit of God,
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so we what we're saying when we
talk about identity is that no
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matter what we do, no matter
what we're shaped with, you know
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what our spiritual gifts are,
our heart, you know things that
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we're passionate about, our
pers, our abilities, our
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personality, our experiences,
just the the skills, you know.
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I'm I'm a pretty tech savvy
person, you know, and so I'm
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asking God because I'm, you
know, I'm designing websites,
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I'm doing all this stuff, you
know, we're writing books and
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we've got all these things going
on. I'm like, God, I want to
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take this off my plate, but I
actually really enjoy designing
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a website and getting into AI
and figuring out how to solve
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problems. Like that's how God's
wired me. So I don't stop doing
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any of those things. I don't
stop baking my kids' dinner.
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Other than I'm not a good cook,
and they don't. They laugh at
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whenever they they're like,
"Mom, you need to not be cooking
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anymore. So, but you don't stop
needing to feed your family. You
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don't stop doing those things,
and as you said, just sit in a
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prayer closet. But I don't. I am
not defined by those things. I
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am not like I am not just a
mother. I am not just a wife. I
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am not just a daughter. I'm not
just you know running an
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organization and my roles and
responsibilities in that in that
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environment. I am my identity is
deeper than that, and so when I
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go to do those things, I have to
ask God, how do I do those? As
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you know, He calls me a
courageous pioneer. How do I do
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those? And what what's been
freeing for me in knowing that
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God calls me a courageous
pioneer, is that that means that
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a lot of times when I get
frustrated because people aren't
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with me, God said, "No, it's
because you're supposed to go
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first and figure this out, and
then people are going to come.
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Or I was frustrated because I'm
like, God, I just seem to start
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things and not finish them, or I
start and then I have you ask me
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to leave before they're done,
like, and I have to hand it off
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to someone else. And these these
these things in my life that I
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looked at as failures.
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When God showed me who I was, He
said, "No, you actually go
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first, so you can be who. And by
you being who you're supposed to
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be, the people coming behind you
get to be who they're supposed
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to be. And that's actually the
way that I made you. And that
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was very freeing for me because
it wasn't then a failure. It was
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no. It's the truth of who I am,
and in community, I get to hand
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the baton to somebody else to be
who they are, and that's the
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beauty of it. It's that I get to
do all of it and the fullness of
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it, but I don't have to bear the
weight and the burden of it, and
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that has been the most amazing
freedom that God has given. Me
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and I, I know a lot of people as
we're just beginning to press
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into true identity.
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Jacob: You know what's occurring
to me, Julia, is like we were
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talking earlier about. I think
you were talking about
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remothering and how so many
people to receive their identity
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because our culture has prized
the masculine virtues over the
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feminine virtues. There's been
like people have resisted or
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been deprived of a mothering
influence, and it's really
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interesting because coming into
this conversation about walking
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in our authority, I'm always
thinking about how to reframe
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authority for people so they
don't be assholes and run over
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other people. And you heard the
question about authority as how
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do we frame authority so that
everyone knows they have
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something to offer is how I
heard it. Like the license to be
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yourself and not have to be
somebody else, and and and and
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license. I'm thinking about it
as keeping people in check. Like
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just be yourself. Don't try to
be a super version of yourself.
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And I was like, as you were
talking, I was hearing that in
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terms of like, oh yeah, in your
story, you needed to be told
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that who you were was enough. In
my story, I often need to
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remember not to use my role as
license to be more than I am,
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like remembering to live out of
my identity for me is a check
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more than it's a license, which
is again I think true to the
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different stories you and I have
gotten to live. It's like I
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think I've often found myself in
positions to lead beyond my own
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development, and I know that's a
part of your story too, maybe in
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a little bit different way. But
I think like I've had to learn
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how to be to move slower and
speak quieter to leave more room
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for others. And I hear you
saying that that for you,
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authority that flows from your
identity is about permission to
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step into what is really yours
to do. I
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Julia Schmaltz: can be loud as
well, Jacob. So I think I've had
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to learn to die to self for for
many decades, and so in doing
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that, I think the Lord has said,
"You don't you don't do that
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stepping on others in the
process. You do that because
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then you see the truth of who
they are, and then you're asking
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God, "Who do you say that they
are? And okay, I see that. And
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God's actually with my kids.
I've asked God, "Who do you say
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that they are? Years before they
ever receive an identity from
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Him, before they're even ready
to receive it. But then calling
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that out of them is something
that's been very life giving for
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me because, and also then for
them because they're starting
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there. There's not a weight and
a burden that gets put on that,
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you know, and so that's
interesting that you're talking
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about the feminine and masculine
virtues, and then also you know
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you feeling like you've got to
pull back. I want to press into
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that a little bit more with you,
but I'll let Jesse respond
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Jessie Cruickshank: and chime in
first. I think it's that push
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pull, so that we don't end up in
gutters, right? Why we're
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better, where we're better
together, and together Adam and
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Eve make a complete image of
God. And so, you know, not
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having spirit, biological
children, but having spiritual
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children, asking the same thing
over them, like God, who who are
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they? What what was the gift you
gave? What we did together, so
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in leadership role, so running
an organization, what was the
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gift you gave the organization
and this person? You know what
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was what was the need that you
see that the organization has,
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the community has, that this
person gets to come help be a be
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a part of filling, and I think
we started praying that way
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because we were young and we
didn't have strategy and we
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didn't know how to actually
build an organization. I mean, I
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don't know how to build an
organization at the age of 22,
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but I do know how to pray and
ask God to send people. And so,
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so what was the identity? What
was the gift that they came as,
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and saying, you know, okay, how
do we how do we receive that
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from them? Wow, I I really wish
that they were better at
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something than they are. Like
like receiving a lot of people
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who are in process or incomplete
or you know not a superstar, and
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yet the Lord's like, no, this is
my gift to you, and and you're
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gonna grow together. You're
gonna be together in this. So
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for me, for me, I have the push
pull of, you know, how do I step
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back in a way that lets them be
brave enough to step forward
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because I'm I'm pretty intense
personality, but then also how
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do I know who, what I'm being
invited into. What is the space
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God is asking me to stand in?
And in that, while I'm leading
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them, what does that actually
look like to be a nurturing
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space? The best metaphor I have
for that is a mother tree. Like
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a mother tree helps nurture a
forest. It doesn't. It it
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doesn't like you can't. Make any
of the other trees grow, but you
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can send them nutrients. You can
change the soil. You can you can
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create an atmosphere for other
others to thrive to thrive in
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and to be and flourish. I feel
both, right? I feel the push
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pull. I feel the places where
I've I need permission to be in
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my true self, and where I need
to be like, okay, let me dial
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down a little bit of the
intensity, so that others don't
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feel overwhelmed by that. So,
so, so that leadership, that
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being for me, is a is a bit of a
an expansion and contraction and
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an ebb and a flow. And so, you
know, Julia, you and I share the
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same practice where we say,
okay, God, who are you asking me
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to be in this room? Who am I
showing up as? Am I showing up
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as for me my my catalyst, where
I'm going to speak intensely,
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and the point is that it's
intense and it's going to change
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somebody's life? Or God, are you
showing? You invited me to show
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up as a terraformer, which is a
slower process of changing the
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soil and changing the atmosphere
in order for things to be able
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to grow, and those are ones
short term, ones long term, ones
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more intense, and ones more way
you know pulled back. But
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they're both me because they're
both who God created me to be.
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It's just what am I invited to
be in that room will then inform
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what I do in that room.
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Jacob: Yeah, and I, I, I, I
wrote that down previously as
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like what part of my identity is
fueling my current role. Now
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again, I think it's like for us,
a lot of this is about
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differentiating concepts that
have been conflated in the past,
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and so for a lot of people,
their role has become their
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identity. And I think part of
what we're saying in this
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conversation is both are
necessary. So it's like you have
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to be true to your identity, and
you should probably be faithful
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to your role. But the role
should always flow from the
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identity. The identity should
always be what's what's
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empowering the role. Am I
getting that right?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, I think
that's all part of our
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formation. So my husband was a
police officer for 35 years, and
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you know he was we were here in
California, and so he you know
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took an oath for the law of the
land to to operate in the
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authority that he was given to
you know with the laws here in
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in California, but when he goes
to Arizona, he's still a police
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officer in California, but he
has a different authority. He
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has a different now that he's
retired. He has all the
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training. He has all the
experience. In 2020, he had a
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heart attack and then had kidney
cancer, and so he was still,
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even though he was still a
police officer, he was off duty
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because of that of that year
because of the just some of the
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physical stuff that he was
dealing with, and so he had to
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be. Is my identity being a
police officer? Is my identity
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and for all I will tell you,
being a wife of a police
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officer, it was at that time.
It's not anymore. God has since
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called him a peacemaker, and
he's a peacemaker in how he goes
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into situations. And God calls
him a faithful, beloved son, and
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he's that, regardless of whether
or not he is a police officer or
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a deputy or whatever role he
has. He's that whether wherever
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he goes, you know, he he's a
peacemaker. But he broke that
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for beautifully for 35 years in
a wonderful career. Now that
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he's retired, he's still a
peacemaker, and that's the truth
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of who he is. But he's no longer
has the same authority in those
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in a room that he used to have.
Now he has authority in other
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rooms, and I think that's part
of our spiritual formation.
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God's saying, "I'm changing the
boundaries for you because now
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that you know who you are, how
are you going to operate like
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that in this this different
world? And sometimes, to your
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point, Jesse, it constricts, and
then sometimes it opens up, and
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it's constantly changing. And I
think also that you know our
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worlds expand, and so we have
multiple areas, you know. I
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might have that authority at
church, or I might not,
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depending on my role or my
responsibility. I have it in a
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group that I'm leading in my
home right now, and it's really
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beautiful. And people are
inviting me in. You know, same
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thing with my kids' lives as
they grow, that changes. So I
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think that there's something
about that when it comes to you
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know to just our authority and
being able to really like in our
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roles and responsibilities, the
truth of who we are is going to
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play out in all of that. But,
but our authority really has
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boundaries. I we believe. I
mean, that's what something that
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Jesse and I really wrestled
through in writing this this
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book is that we we are not
supposed to hold power in our
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brains. And Jesse can talk about
the neuroscience of that, and
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get real nerdy for you on it in
the most beautiful way. What we
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love about her, but we're not
supposed to hold power. But we
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are empowered by the Spirit for
the roles and the assignments
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that God gives us, and that is
how we operate in our authority.
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and And we are supposed to
operate in that. And one of.
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Things that Adam and Eve did is
they questioned God, and and the
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enemy said to them, "Did God
really say that? And I think
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that's just the the the number
one scheme of the enemy is he
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just makes us doubt God. He
makes us doubt that God is who
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He says He is, that we are who
we say we are, and out of that,
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if God's not really good, or if
God's, or if I'm you know a
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screw up, and all of a sudden, I
abdicate. I hand over my
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authority to the enemy and say,
"Well, the enemy's just running
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rampant in my life. And it's
like, "Oh, is that true?
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God, do you say that it's true,
or are you actually, you know,
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have I just abandoned, abdicated
my role and responsibility in
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the authority that you've given
to me and handed it over to the
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enemy, and so the enemy has free
reign in my life. And I think
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that the Lord is saying you
actually have more authority.
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Your assignment is greater than
you realize if you can operate
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in the truth of who you are and
allow your being to inform all
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that you do. Yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: the
temptation with the doing is
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that it sets us up and convinces
us that we're a source, that
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we're the source, and so we, you
know, we want power. We stay in
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power. We think that we need to
know the answers. I mean, it
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depends on depends on whatever
your your economy is, right? So
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you're what is it that the
situation needs that you think
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you're the source of, and so
when when we are stuck in a
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doing paradigm, then then we're
we have to provide that. When we
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can when we can shift out of
that into a being paradigm, then
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our being is grounded in who God
is, and we don't have to be a
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source. And so, authority
doesn't come from us; it flows
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through us. God is the source of
all authority, and all authority
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is actually delegated, right
from the throne to wherever God
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deems that it is, right? And we
can be upset about that. We can
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be jealous of that. We can we
can have all the feels that we
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feel about how God delegates
that authority, but it's still
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it's from Him through us. But we
cut off that supply when we
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think we're the source, and then
we can either get trapped by
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trying too hard or doing too
much or operating in in ways
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that can harm other people, or
we abdicate. Or usually, what
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happens is we try hard, it
doesn't work, and then we quit
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and abdicate. But but we always
end up in this place where where
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we give up and relinquish when
when God never asked us to be
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the source, He just said, "Hey,
you stand in this place that I
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give you, and I will do it.
Well, that that means we have to
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abide. That means we have to be
grafted in. We have to be a
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branch, you know, tapped into
the vine, and let the juice that
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flows through a plant, throw
flow through us, and you know
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that that paradigm then is my
doing flows out of my being. My
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being is connected. My and I am
is connected to who God is, and
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I don't have to worry then about
I don't have to worry then about
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what actually happens in a room?
What the fruit is? You know
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what, what is accomplished? I,
you know, whether or not people
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listen to me, I can just stay
grafted into the vine there and
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and let God do it, and and then
we'll deal with that, right? For
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better, for worse, for you know,
fat, for miracles or for
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frustration, we we can deal with
that because that's the story
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God's writing.
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Jacob: So in the book, you
ordered the topics this way.
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It's like story is at the
center, and then you talk about
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identity, then community, then
maturity, then authority. I
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wonder if the sequence there is
a stacking. So do you think the
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content needs to be apprehended
in that order?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yes. Yes.
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Jacob: Okay, I'm just confirming
that. Yeah. Because what I was
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sensing in this conversation is
like it's very complex, and so
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we have you have being and
doing, you have role and
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responsibility, you have power
and authority, you have
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effectiveness and and
restedness, like so. So there's
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advancing and retreating, and
all of that is coming together.
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And that's one of like, I I like
I was thinking of our listener
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and thinking like, wow, we just
threw out five concepts because
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power is different than
authority, role is different
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than responsibility, and it's
like. But I think in order to
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get at what you're saying about
doing out of our being
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boundaries on our authority,
moving from authority in order
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to wield the power of God or or
submit to the power of God, and
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then and not abdicating what's
been mined to do, and like, and
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when I think power and
authority, I think about like
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the American world today. It's
like it feels like every every
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conversation in our culture is
dominated by questions of power,
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and and it's very very complex.
And so I was I was checking to
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make sure that. That authority
comes at the end of the book
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because it really it really does
come after we understand
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identity, community, and
maturity. Then we can start to
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have a conversation about
authority. So I'm just saying to
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our listener, if you're feeling
a little overwhelmed and
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conflicted, it's because we
jumped to the end of the story,
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and there's a lot at play here.
Is that would you agree or
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disagree?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, if you
look at the way the questions
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are along those topics, the for
identity is the question of who
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am I, and maturity is the
question of who am I becoming,
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and there's a vertical access to
that that we are on a journey in
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which we are we are being that
for out our entire life. We're
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talking about a lifetime of
discipleship. We're not talking
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about a moment. You don't just
hear your identity and boom,
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great, this is who I am. Now let
me go be this wherever I go.
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We're not talking about that.
You keep coming back, and you'll
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see that who's at the center. We
actually the first question we
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ask is actually fidelity. Who is
my God? Who do I put at the
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center of my life? And then over
time, how am I coming closer to?
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I should become in more and more
alignment. And if I'm coming in
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more and more alignment with
Christ and becoming more one
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with Him, and Jesse and Jacob
and all of us as listeners are
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becoming more and more aligned
to Him, there is more and there
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is more attunement to what God
is doing and what God is
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speaking. And so then the
questions that we have
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horizontally are community and
authority, and those are
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actually who do I represent? Who
do I belong to? And so this
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question of authority is who do
I represent? And so when I
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operate in authority, whose
power am I operating in? If if
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we're operating in Christ's
authority, which is of course
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our desire, He's going to keep
telling us who we are, and I
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just kept coming back. You know,
I just want to remind all of us
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as the listeners, like when we
talk about Jesus, Jesus, there
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were there were towns that he
did not go in. He actually,
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whoa, Corason, whoa, Bethesda,
because they did not receive
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him, and so us operating in our
authority, God, you know, Jesus
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had all authority in heaven and
on earth had been given to him,
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and he was still rejected. And
there were places that he
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stepped in and then left, or
places that he never went. There
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were boundaries that were placed
on Paul in where he could go and
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he couldn't go. And this is
where we just have it's so it's
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complex, and yes, it builds and
there's a lot of concepts around
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all of it, and yet it's so
simple. It's who's our God and
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who's at the center of our life
and who do who are we keep who
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do we keep going to to tell us
who we are and whose we are. And
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if there's one thing from all
the conversations we're having,
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from story, from authority,
identity, maturity, community,
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it's who are we going back to is
at the center of our life and
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gets to tell us who we are.
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Jessie Cruickshank: It
definitely gets like three
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dimensional in all of that, but
but just as Julie is saying,
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like the core is simple. The
core is tetheredness. The core
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is that dynamic with God and our
dynamic with others, so you can
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00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:07,590
stand in your spiritual
authority when you're five, and
387
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I tell a story about doing that
in the book. And so we we can
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00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:14,580
make it complicated as we think
about the complexity of the
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world, but if we just zoom in
and say, okay, what does it look
390
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like for a child to know how God
names them to say, you know,
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God, Jesus, you're my, you're my
Jesus, you're my Lord, you're my
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Savior, right? So God is my
Savior and my Lord. I am a
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beloved child of God, and then
okay, God, what do you want me
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to do about that? What do you
want me to know about that? So
395
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we can we can distill it down to
simplicity, and that those
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00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:44,320
things, what's true for the
five-year-old is true for all of
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us. And so, when it feels
overwhelming, when it feels
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00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:51,910
complex, man, just close your
eyes, enter in that space that
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you have with God, and ask the
question like a five-year-old,
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and and God will answer you
there. He always has, at least
401
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for Julie, at least for me, he
always has. I mean, I mean,
402
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:07,170
practically, like I was in a
couple of meetings this week,
403
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:09,300
and we were, you know, what
should we do? We're going, you
404
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:11,580
know, you start getting into all
these conversations, you know,
405
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and it's like, what, what's God
inviting us into? You start
406
00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,450
asking all these questions, and
we just stopped and said, God,
407
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:17,640
what are you asking? Like, we
just stopped, God, what do you
408
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,890
want us to know right now, in
this moment, God, what are you
409
00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:25,850
speaking to us? Because we know
who we are, we know that we are
410
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:29,030
yours, and what are you speaking
to us in this moment? And do you
411
00:24:29,030 --> 00:24:30,110
know how centering that was?
412
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Julia Schmaltz: And do you know
how God just speaks alignment to
413
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people when we just go back and
ask Him? Like, if that was just
414
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our authority comes from Him,
and we just keep going back to
415
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that, and I'm just wanting more
of that. Like how simple. I just
416
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want more of that. I don't have
to figure this world out. I
417
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mean, I don't know about you
guys, but I'm in the AI space
418
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:54,460
right now, and things are
changing so fast. I mean, you
419
00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:58,030
talk about being overwhelmed by,
and I love it. And I actually am
420
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really pressing into that, but.
There's there's something about
421
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like I realize like I can't
literally keep up with the speed
422
00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:08,430
of how things are changing in
this world, so I just have to
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keep going back to Jesus and
having Him tell me what I need
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to know and what I need to do.
Amen.
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Jacob: Amen. Thanks for joining
us on the Ordinary Discipleship
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00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,900
Podcast with Jesse Cruikshank.
Check out Jesse and Julia's
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book, *Becoming Good News:
Reimagining Discipleship Through
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00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:26,540
Identity, Story, and Science*
and we'll see you next time.
00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:02,460
Jacob: Welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse
2
00:00:02,550 --> 00:00:05,520
Krukshank. I'm Jacob Hoyer here
with Julia Schmaltz, and we are
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00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:09,090
still talking about big topics
out of Jesse and Julia's book,
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Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,
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Story, and Science. And you
know, guys, we've been talking
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on a previous episode about this
contrast between being and
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doing, and creating environments
where we can live from our
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identity, which is our being,
not our doing, which were these
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tasks and roles that we all take
on. Julia, you were saying
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recently, like, but at the end
of the day, there's still some
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stuff we have to do, and I think
I'm like, I'm picturing my dad
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in my mind when I say that
phrase, like, well, yeah, but
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you have to do something, and
and we're not telling people
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they should just like not do
stuff. Just sit and listen.
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Prayer is good, but sometimes
you have to get out of your
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prayer closet and go do
something. So, how would you
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speak to that concern that this
conversation around identity
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being overdoing just kind of
allows us to avoid
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accountability for the things we
actually have to do?
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Julia Schmaltz: When Jesus was
assigned identity by God at this
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baptism. He was told, "This is
my beloved Son in whom I am well
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pleased. Before he had done
anything, and I do think it's
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important for us to realize
Psalm 139. We're formed in our
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mother's womb, Jeremiah one. You
know, it talks about you know we
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are formed first, we are named
first by God, this part of us
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that is formed for eternity
exists out that exists outside
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of our even time, right? That's
what we're talking about when
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we're talking about identity.
But the practical question is
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that you asked is like, how do
we bring that into what we do?
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So Jesus never had an official
role or position. He was called
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a rabbi, but he was not
officially a rabbi named by the
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Pharisees. He was a rabbi by the
nature of the gifting that God
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had given him, the assignment
that God had given him, and then
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the role as being a teacher to a
group of disciples that were
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going to follow him into this
new way of of operating in the
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kingdom. And in Mark 115, it
says, the time is now, the
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kingdom is at hand. Repent and
believe the gospel, and then he
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proclaimed the good news, and he
says it is going to be good news
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for the poor. And he quotes from
Isaiah chapter 61. And this
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whole thing that happens in
Jesus's life, it's you know when
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you look at his life, you go,
okay, how do we live like Jesus?
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We live attuned to the spirit of
God, what he did was he was
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named by God. He eventually was
named by Peter too. When Peter
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says that you know you are the
Christ, the Son of the Living
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God, and and Jesus affirms Peter
and says you know flesh and
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blood has not declared this over
has not told you this has not
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revealed this to you. This is
this is from the spirit of God,
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so we what we're saying when we
talk about identity is that no
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matter what we do, no matter
what we're shaped with, you know
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what our spiritual gifts are,
our heart, you know things that
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we're passionate about, our
pers, our abilities, our
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personality, our experiences,
just the the skills, you know.
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I'm I'm a pretty tech savvy
person, you know, and so I'm
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asking God because I'm, you
know, I'm designing websites,
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I'm doing all this stuff, you
know, we're writing books and
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we've got all these things going
on. I'm like, God, I want to
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take this off my plate, but I
actually really enjoy designing
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a website and getting into AI
and figuring out how to solve
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problems. Like that's how God's
wired me. So I don't stop doing
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any of those things. I don't
stop baking my kids' dinner.
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Other than I'm not a good cook,
and they don't. They laugh at
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whenever they they're like,
"Mom, you need to not be cooking
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anymore. So, but you don't stop
needing to feed your family. You
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don't stop doing those things,
and as you said, just sit in a
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prayer closet. But I don't. I am
not defined by those things. I
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am not like I am not just a
mother. I am not just a wife. I
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am not just a daughter. I'm not
just you know running an
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organization and my roles and
responsibilities in that in that
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environment. I am my identity is
deeper than that, and so when I
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go to do those things, I have to
ask God, how do I do those? As
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you know, He calls me a
courageous pioneer. How do I do
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those? And what what's been
freeing for me in knowing that
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God calls me a courageous
pioneer, is that that means that
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a lot of times when I get
frustrated because people aren't
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with me, God said, "No, it's
because you're supposed to go
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first and figure this out, and
then people are going to come.
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Or I was frustrated because I'm
like, God, I just seem to start
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things and not finish them, or I
start and then I have you ask me
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to leave before they're done,
like, and I have to hand it off
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to someone else. And these these
these things in my life that I
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looked at as failures.
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When God showed me who I was, He
said, "No, you actually go
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first, so you can be who. And by
you being who you're supposed to
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be, the people coming behind you
get to be who they're supposed
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to be. And that's actually the
way that I made you. And that
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was very freeing for me because
it wasn't then a failure. It was
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no. It's the truth of who I am,
and in community, I get to hand
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the baton to somebody else to be
who they are, and that's the
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beauty of it. It's that I get to
do all of it and the fullness of
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it, but I don't have to bear the
weight and the burden of it, and
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that has been the most amazing
freedom that God has given. Me
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and I, I know a lot of people as
we're just beginning to press
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into true identity.
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Jacob: You know what's occurring
to me, Julia, is like we were
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talking earlier about. I think
you were talking about
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remothering and how so many
people to receive their identity
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because our culture has prized
the masculine virtues over the
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feminine virtues. There's been
like people have resisted or
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been deprived of a mothering
influence, and it's really
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interesting because coming into
this conversation about walking
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in our authority, I'm always
thinking about how to reframe
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authority for people so they
don't be assholes and run over
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other people. And you heard the
question about authority as how
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do we frame authority so that
everyone knows they have
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something to offer is how I
heard it. Like the license to be
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yourself and not have to be
somebody else, and and and and
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license. I'm thinking about it
as keeping people in check. Like
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just be yourself. Don't try to
be a super version of yourself.
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And I was like, as you were
talking, I was hearing that in
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terms of like, oh yeah, in your
story, you needed to be told
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that who you were was enough. In
my story, I often need to
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remember not to use my role as
license to be more than I am,
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like remembering to live out of
my identity for me is a check
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more than it's a license, which
is again I think true to the
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different stories you and I have
gotten to live. It's like I
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think I've often found myself in
positions to lead beyond my own
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development, and I know that's a
part of your story too, maybe in
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a little bit different way. But
I think like I've had to learn
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how to be to move slower and
speak quieter to leave more room
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for others. And I hear you
saying that that for you,
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authority that flows from your
identity is about permission to
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step into what is really yours
to do. I
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Julia Schmaltz: can be loud as
well, Jacob. So I think I've had
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to learn to die to self for for
many decades, and so in doing
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that, I think the Lord has said,
"You don't you don't do that
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stepping on others in the
process. You do that because
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then you see the truth of who
they are, and then you're asking
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God, "Who do you say that they
are? And okay, I see that. And
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God's actually with my kids.
I've asked God, "Who do you say
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that they are? Years before they
ever receive an identity from
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Him, before they're even ready
to receive it. But then calling
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that out of them is something
that's been very life giving for
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me because, and also then for
them because they're starting
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there. There's not a weight and
a burden that gets put on that,
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you know, and so that's
interesting that you're talking
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about the feminine and masculine
virtues, and then also you know
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you feeling like you've got to
pull back. I want to press into
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that a little bit more with you,
but I'll let Jesse respond
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Jessie Cruickshank: and chime in
first. I think it's that push
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pull, so that we don't end up in
gutters, right? Why we're
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better, where we're better
together, and together Adam and
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Eve make a complete image of
God. And so, you know, not
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having spirit, biological
children, but having spiritual
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children, asking the same thing
over them, like God, who who are
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they? What what was the gift you
gave? What we did together, so
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in leadership role, so running
an organization, what was the
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gift you gave the organization
and this person? You know what
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was what was the need that you
see that the organization has,
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the community has, that this
person gets to come help be a be
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a part of filling, and I think
we started praying that way
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because we were young and we
didn't have strategy and we
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didn't know how to actually
build an organization. I mean, I
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don't know how to build an
organization at the age of 22,
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but I do know how to pray and
ask God to send people. And so,
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so what was the identity? What
was the gift that they came as,
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and saying, you know, okay, how
do we how do we receive that
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from them? Wow, I I really wish
that they were better at
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something than they are. Like
like receiving a lot of people
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who are in process or incomplete
or you know not a superstar, and
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yet the Lord's like, no, this is
my gift to you, and and you're
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gonna grow together. You're
gonna be together in this. So
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for me, for me, I have the push
pull of, you know, how do I step
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back in a way that lets them be
brave enough to step forward
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because I'm I'm pretty intense
personality, but then also how
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do I know who, what I'm being
invited into. What is the space
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God is asking me to stand in?
And in that, while I'm leading
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them, what does that actually
look like to be a nurturing
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space? The best metaphor I have
for that is a mother tree. Like
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a mother tree helps nurture a
forest. It doesn't. It it
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doesn't like you can't. Make any
of the other trees grow, but you
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can send them nutrients. You can
change the soil. You can you can
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create an atmosphere for other
others to thrive to thrive in
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and to be and flourish. I feel
both, right? I feel the push
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pull. I feel the places where
I've I need permission to be in
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my true self, and where I need
to be like, okay, let me dial
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down a little bit of the
intensity, so that others don't
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feel overwhelmed by that. So,
so, so that leadership, that
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being for me, is a is a bit of a
an expansion and contraction and
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an ebb and a flow. And so, you
know, Julia, you and I share the
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same practice where we say,
okay, God, who are you asking me
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to be in this room? Who am I
showing up as? Am I showing up
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as for me my my catalyst, where
I'm going to speak intensely,
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and the point is that it's
intense and it's going to change
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somebody's life? Or God, are you
showing? You invited me to show
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up as a terraformer, which is a
slower process of changing the
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soil and changing the atmosphere
in order for things to be able
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to grow, and those are ones
short term, ones long term, ones
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more intense, and ones more way
you know pulled back. But
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they're both me because they're
both who God created me to be.
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It's just what am I invited to
be in that room will then inform
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what I do in that room.
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Jacob: Yeah, and I, I, I, I
wrote that down previously as
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like what part of my identity is
fueling my current role. Now
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again, I think it's like for us,
a lot of this is about
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differentiating concepts that
have been conflated in the past,
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and so for a lot of people,
their role has become their
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identity. And I think part of
what we're saying in this
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conversation is both are
necessary. So it's like you have
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to be true to your identity, and
you should probably be faithful
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to your role. But the role
should always flow from the
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identity. The identity should
always be what's what's
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empowering the role. Am I
getting that right?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, I think
that's all part of our
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formation. So my husband was a
police officer for 35 years, and
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you know he was we were here in
California, and so he you know
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took an oath for the law of the
land to to operate in the
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authority that he was given to
you know with the laws here in
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in California, but when he goes
to Arizona, he's still a police
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officer in California, but he
has a different authority. He
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has a different now that he's
retired. He has all the
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training. He has all the
experience. In 2020, he had a
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heart attack and then had kidney
cancer, and so he was still,
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even though he was still a
police officer, he was off duty
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because of that of that year
because of the just some of the
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physical stuff that he was
dealing with, and so he had to
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be. Is my identity being a
police officer? Is my identity
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and for all I will tell you,
being a wife of a police
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officer, it was at that time.
It's not anymore. God has since
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called him a peacemaker, and
he's a peacemaker in how he goes
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into situations. And God calls
him a faithful, beloved son, and
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he's that, regardless of whether
or not he is a police officer or
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a deputy or whatever role he
has. He's that whether wherever
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he goes, you know, he he's a
peacemaker. But he broke that
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for beautifully for 35 years in
a wonderful career. Now that
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he's retired, he's still a
peacemaker, and that's the truth
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of who he is. But he's no longer
has the same authority in those
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in a room that he used to have.
Now he has authority in other
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rooms, and I think that's part
of our spiritual formation.
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God's saying, "I'm changing the
boundaries for you because now
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that you know who you are, how
are you going to operate like
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that in this this different
world? And sometimes, to your
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point, Jesse, it constricts, and
then sometimes it opens up, and
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it's constantly changing. And I
think also that you know our
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worlds expand, and so we have
multiple areas, you know. I
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might have that authority at
church, or I might not,
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depending on my role or my
responsibility. I have it in a
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group that I'm leading in my
home right now, and it's really
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beautiful. And people are
inviting me in. You know, same
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thing with my kids' lives as
they grow, that changes. So I
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think that there's something
about that when it comes to you
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know to just our authority and
being able to really like in our
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roles and responsibilities, the
truth of who we are is going to
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play out in all of that. But,
but our authority really has
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boundaries. I we believe. I
mean, that's what something that
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Jesse and I really wrestled
through in writing this this
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book is that we we are not
supposed to hold power in our
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brains. And Jesse can talk about
the neuroscience of that, and
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get real nerdy for you on it in
the most beautiful way. What we
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love about her, but we're not
supposed to hold power. But we
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are empowered by the Spirit for
the roles and the assignments
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that God gives us, and that is
how we operate in our authority.
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and And we are supposed to
operate in that. And one of.
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Things that Adam and Eve did is
they questioned God, and and the
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enemy said to them, "Did God
really say that? And I think
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that's just the the the number
one scheme of the enemy is he
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just makes us doubt God. He
makes us doubt that God is who
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He says He is, that we are who
we say we are, and out of that,
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if God's not really good, or if
God's, or if I'm you know a
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screw up, and all of a sudden, I
abdicate. I hand over my
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authority to the enemy and say,
"Well, the enemy's just running
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rampant in my life. And it's
like, "Oh, is that true?
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God, do you say that it's true,
or are you actually, you know,
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have I just abandoned, abdicated
my role and responsibility in
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the authority that you've given
to me and handed it over to the
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enemy, and so the enemy has free
reign in my life. And I think
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that the Lord is saying you
actually have more authority.
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Your assignment is greater than
you realize if you can operate
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in the truth of who you are and
allow your being to inform all
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that you do. Yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: the
temptation with the doing is
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that it sets us up and convinces
us that we're a source, that
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we're the source, and so we, you
know, we want power. We stay in
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power. We think that we need to
know the answers. I mean, it
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depends on depends on whatever
your your economy is, right? So
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you're what is it that the
situation needs that you think
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you're the source of, and so
when when we are stuck in a
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doing paradigm, then then we're
we have to provide that. When we
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can when we can shift out of
that into a being paradigm, then
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our being is grounded in who God
is, and we don't have to be a
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source. And so, authority
doesn't come from us; it flows
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through us. God is the source of
all authority, and all authority
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is actually delegated, right
from the throne to wherever God
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deems that it is, right? And we
can be upset about that. We can
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be jealous of that. We can we
can have all the feels that we
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feel about how God delegates
that authority, but it's still
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it's from Him through us. But we
cut off that supply when we
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think we're the source, and then
we can either get trapped by
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trying too hard or doing too
much or operating in in ways
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that can harm other people, or
we abdicate. Or usually, what
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happens is we try hard, it
doesn't work, and then we quit
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and abdicate. But but we always
end up in this place where where
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we give up and relinquish when
when God never asked us to be
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the source, He just said, "Hey,
you stand in this place that I
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give you, and I will do it.
Well, that that means we have to
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abide. That means we have to be
grafted in. We have to be a
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branch, you know, tapped into
the vine, and let the juice that
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flows through a plant, throw
flow through us, and you know
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that that paradigm then is my
doing flows out of my being. My
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being is connected. My and I am
is connected to who God is, and
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I don't have to worry then about
I don't have to worry then about
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what actually happens in a room?
What the fruit is? You know
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what, what is accomplished? I,
you know, whether or not people
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listen to me, I can just stay
grafted into the vine there and
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and let God do it, and and then
we'll deal with that, right? For
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better, for worse, for you know,
fat, for miracles or for
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frustration, we we can deal with
that because that's the story
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God's writing.
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Jacob: So in the book, you
ordered the topics this way.
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It's like story is at the
center, and then you talk about
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identity, then community, then
maturity, then authority. I
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wonder if the sequence there is
a stacking. So do you think the
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content needs to be apprehended
in that order?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yes. Yes.
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Jacob: Okay, I'm just confirming
that. Yeah. Because what I was
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sensing in this conversation is
like it's very complex, and so
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we have you have being and
doing, you have role and
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responsibility, you have power
and authority, you have
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effectiveness and and
restedness, like so. So there's
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advancing and retreating, and
all of that is coming together.
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And that's one of like, I I like
I was thinking of our listener
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and thinking like, wow, we just
threw out five concepts because
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power is different than
authority, role is different
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than responsibility, and it's
like. But I think in order to
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get at what you're saying about
doing out of our being
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boundaries on our authority,
moving from authority in order
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to wield the power of God or or
submit to the power of God, and
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then and not abdicating what's
been mined to do, and like, and
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when I think power and
authority, I think about like
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the American world today. It's
like it feels like every every
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conversation in our culture is
dominated by questions of power,
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and and it's very very complex.
And so I was I was checking to
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make sure that. That authority
comes at the end of the book
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because it really it really does
come after we understand
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identity, community, and
maturity. Then we can start to
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have a conversation about
authority. So I'm just saying to
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our listener, if you're feeling
a little overwhelmed and
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conflicted, it's because we
jumped to the end of the story,
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and there's a lot at play here.
Is that would you agree or
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disagree?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, if you
look at the way the questions
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are along those topics, the for
identity is the question of who
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am I, and maturity is the
question of who am I becoming,
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and there's a vertical access to
that that we are on a journey in
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which we are we are being that
for out our entire life. We're
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talking about a lifetime of
discipleship. We're not talking
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about a moment. You don't just
hear your identity and boom,
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great, this is who I am. Now let
me go be this wherever I go.
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We're not talking about that.
You keep coming back, and you'll
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see that who's at the center. We
actually the first question we
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ask is actually fidelity. Who is
my God? Who do I put at the
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center of my life? And then over
time, how am I coming closer to?
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I should become in more and more
alignment. And if I'm coming in
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more and more alignment with
Christ and becoming more one
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with Him, and Jesse and Jacob
and all of us as listeners are
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becoming more and more aligned
to Him, there is more and there
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is more attunement to what God
is doing and what God is
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speaking. And so then the
questions that we have
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horizontally are community and
authority, and those are
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actually who do I represent? Who
do I belong to? And so this
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question of authority is who do
I represent? And so when I
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operate in authority, whose
power am I operating in? If if
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we're operating in Christ's
authority, which is of course
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our desire, He's going to keep
telling us who we are, and I
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just kept coming back. You know,
I just want to remind all of us
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as the listeners, like when we
talk about Jesus, Jesus, there
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were there were towns that he
did not go in. He actually,
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whoa, Corason, whoa, Bethesda,
because they did not receive
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him, and so us operating in our
authority, God, you know, Jesus
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had all authority in heaven and
on earth had been given to him,
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and he was still rejected. And
there were places that he
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stepped in and then left, or
places that he never went. There
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were boundaries that were placed
on Paul in where he could go and
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he couldn't go. And this is
where we just have it's so it's
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complex, and yes, it builds and
there's a lot of concepts around
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all of it, and yet it's so
simple. It's who's our God and
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who's at the center of our life
and who do who are we keep who
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do we keep going to to tell us
who we are and whose we are. And
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if there's one thing from all
the conversations we're having,
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from story, from authority,
identity, maturity, community,
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it's who are we going back to is
at the center of our life and
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gets to tell us who we are.
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Jessie Cruickshank: It
definitely gets like three
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00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:52,300
dimensional in all of that, but
but just as Julie is saying,
384
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like the core is simple. The
core is tetheredness. The core
385
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is that dynamic with God and our
dynamic with others, so you can
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00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:07,590
stand in your spiritual
authority when you're five, and
387
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I tell a story about doing that
in the book. And so we we can
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make it complicated as we think
about the complexity of the
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world, but if we just zoom in
and say, okay, what does it look
390
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like for a child to know how God
names them to say, you know,
391
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God, Jesus, you're my, you're my
Jesus, you're my Lord, you're my
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Savior, right? So God is my
Savior and my Lord. I am a
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beloved child of God, and then
okay, God, what do you want me
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to do about that? What do you
want me to know about that? So
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we can we can distill it down to
simplicity, and that those
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00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:44,320
things, what's true for the
five-year-old is true for all of
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us. And so, when it feels
overwhelming, when it feels
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00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:51,910
complex, man, just close your
eyes, enter in that space that
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you have with God, and ask the
question like a five-year-old,
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and and God will answer you
there. He always has, at least
401
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for Julie, at least for me, he
always has. I mean, I mean,
402
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:07,170
practically, like I was in a
couple of meetings this week,
403
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:09,300
and we were, you know, what
should we do? We're going, you
404
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:11,580
know, you start getting into all
these conversations, you know,
405
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and it's like, what, what's God
inviting us into? You start
406
00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,450
asking all these questions, and
we just stopped and said, God,
407
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:17,640
what are you asking? Like, we
just stopped, God, what do you
408
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,890
want us to know right now, in
this moment, God, what are you
409
00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:25,850
speaking to us? Because we know
who we are, we know that we are
410
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:29,030
yours, and what are you speaking
to us in this moment? And do you
411
00:24:29,030 --> 00:24:30,110
know how centering that was?
412
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Julia Schmaltz: And do you know
how God just speaks alignment to
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people when we just go back and
ask Him? Like, if that was just
414
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our authority comes from Him,
and we just keep going back to
415
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that, and I'm just wanting more
of that. Like how simple. I just
416
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want more of that. I don't have
to figure this world out. I
417
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mean, I don't know about you
guys, but I'm in the AI space
418
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:54,460
right now, and things are
changing so fast. I mean, you
419
00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:58,030
talk about being overwhelmed by,
and I love it. And I actually am
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00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,950
really pressing into that, but.
There's there's something about
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00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,700
like I realize like I can't
literally keep up with the speed
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00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:08,430
of how things are changing in
this world, so I just have to
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keep going back to Jesus and
having Him tell me what I need
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to know and what I need to do.
Amen.
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00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,700
Jacob: Amen. Thanks for joining
us on the Ordinary Discipleship
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00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,900
Podcast with Jesse Cruikshank.
Check out Jesse and Julia's
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00:25:21,020 --> 00:25:23,510
book, *Becoming Good News:
Reimagining Discipleship Through
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00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:26,540
Identity, Story, and Science*
and we'll see you next time.
