Yas Banks: If there any, if you have any internet problems, just hop back on and then we can start, start with them sorted and yeah, it'll be all good, all good. But we're just gonna have a nice chill chat and I've got obviously the couple of questions up. So we'll just run off that and see, see what we can do. gonna, fab. I've got them up here. So if you see me look up, it's because I'm looking at the questions. All good. Okay.
Eve Macdonald: fresh. Nice one! I've got them here. Kind of reply tea.
Yas Banks: Host mode. Welcome to Open Studio. We are here with Eve today. We are here to discuss the reality of creative careers. So Eve McDonald joined Kiss Branding in 2025 as a junior designer. She evolved into a tailored role of both creative strategy and business growth. Her background spans across fine art, PR, marketing, advertising and brands. a vast experience. She graduated in 2023 with a degree in fine art and history of art and has spent the time since moving fluidly across the creative industries as he sells what she might be doing too. She's passionate about cross-pollination of ideas and industries and thinks that coming from the wrong background can be really helpful, which is what we can discuss today. Outside of Kiss, Eve runs Pencil in Leeds, a community calendar connecting creatives across the city because she knows how isolating those first years are in the industry and can be and thinks nobody should have to navigate the creative industries alone. She's a firm believer that a wobbly career path can build better creatives. So that will nicely flow us into what we're going to be chatting about today, which the episode is the reality of being creative and creative careers. So Eve, I know I've just given a nice little intro that you've kindly provided for us but if you want to just chat a little bit if there's anything to expand on on that go ahead now's your time introduce yourself.
Eve Macdonald: introduction. So hello, I'm Eve. You've covered a lot of my points to be honest. Obviously I work at Case Branding in Leeds. I went to the University of Leeds to do my fine art and history of art degree ⁓ and graduated into a pandemic kind of like the back end of it and it was all looking kind of sad for the creative industries at that point.
Yas Banks: Ha ha ha. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ So I started out as a social media executive for a PR company. And then within my first week, the graphic designer left. And so suddenly I was being asked to do kind of big campaigns and it was brilliant. I really like really hit the ground running. So that's kind of where I cut my teeth and I did loads of really fun shoots and all that kind of stuff. And from there I've decided to move across into brand ⁓ and I run pencil in.
Yas Banks: Nice. Mm-hmm. nice. Nice.
Eve Macdonald: and we run events for creatives. And we launched in Manchester like last month, two months ago, which is brilliant.
Yas Banks: Amazing. Nice. Nice. So yeah, you mentioned the pandemic there. I'm sure a lot of people can kind of relate in the sense of they've maybe stepped into a career early on and that was in the pandemic or still kind of figuring it out how that looked. And how did that feel for you kind of graduating into that? Maybe like you say, yeah, the latter end of that, but did you find an effect to either the final years of your education and kind of connecting to industry versus into graduating?
Eve Macdonald: 100%. So I had, in 2020, I had lined up a curatorial, what's called like internship at Howard House. And the day I was supposed to do my final interview for it was the day all the borders closed. It all just shut down. So as someone who kind of anticipated going into curating and fine art, those avenues were much much more shut. So ⁓ I was actually working at a pub at the time and I loved it. I was a manager at this pub and I ran their social media. I volunteered to run their social media because I mean like everyone needed social media. I thought I had a basic understanding of it. I got really into like the back end of it ⁓ and so by the time I graduated
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nice.
Eve Macdonald: I had this portfolio of fake work that really helped open doors for me because I already had ⁓ a real client that I could show people and go, yeah, this is the pub that I run the social media for. And I also did it for a lot of the societies that I was part of at university because everything was digital. So I think it was just a of a ⁓ lateral move of it's still at least creative.
Yas Banks: Nice. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ And then discovering I had a real passion for the kind of like tech side of it the statistics and manage it. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Nice, nice, yeah nice. Yeah it's interesting how you kind of find yourself when you're faced with a weird situation like that was and how you can naturally kind of navigate that world and slot yourself in and kind of find what interests you and where you want to push. And I'm really interested in kind of hearing a little bit about how you went from fine art into now a graphic designer because I know a lot of our students kind of go from one end to the other and explore different careers. I'm really keen and really interested in kind of finding that out.
Eve Macdonald: I saying... Kiss Studio specifically, we tend to hire quite diversely. mean, one of our mid-weight designers is his background's film. Like he worked in film for quite a few years before switching to design. And I think a lot of those skills, especially soft skills that you might expect are not applicable, are entirely applicable. I think a lot of studio, I think a mistake people kind of make when they're...
Yas Banks: Nice.
Eve Macdonald: moving across careers as they worry that, ⁓ this is a detractor, like if you'd been a teacher for a while or if you'd worked as a consultant. But I always think that it actually gives you so like a much better problem solving perspective. And that is essentially what graphic design is, is problem solving.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. I'll leave some. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So kind of leading on from that, what does a career in design actually look like and feel like for you? I know you may be still feel like you're new into that world, but how does that feeling look for you? But from where you're standing right now, kind of being newer into the industry.
Eve Macdonald: I think we all have to accept that the traditional path of like junior, mid-weight, senior isn't really as applicable as it used to be. There's a lot more wobble, but it's a good thing. Multi-hyphenate creatives are very much becoming something people want. So whether you've done a little bit of time in UX, you've done a little bit of social, you've done marketing, you've done advertising, it's absolutely... benefit to have those. ⁓ And I think also, from my perspective is very much working in a small studio, I've had the benefit of being able to create a career role around my skill set. So like the idea of an individual contributor, like nobody hired me to do the job I'm doing now. But it's been built because I know I've learned what I'm good at. And also this studio I work for is
Yas Banks: Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eve Macdonald: brilliant and they recognise where my talents lie.
Yas Banks: Yeah, amazing. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I'm a huge believer in that. As you say, the junior, mid-weight, senior, does it really fit? And I understand that people may need that to hire and kind of wage brackets and that kind of side of things. But as myself, I'm a freelancer away from working with Shillington and I have never labelled myself as a junior or mid-weight. I know kind of where I am in. in the experience I have. But like you say, it's nice to step into roles and especially as Kiss has given me an opportunity to kind of shape your role and how that looks and feels for you and benefits you as a creative because you're able to use your experience and grow in a different way. And yeah, it's really interesting how not necessarily there's a job right now here in the world, but 10 years time there might be. And that I feel, I always find that so interesting because 10 years ago, there's probably, for example, content creators, little to none, like that side of vibe and things, like they didn't exist. And I just find that it's so interesting. It's so inspiring, I think, especially for people kind of up and coming into the industry to know that a typical designer role isn't just a designer role now.
Eve Macdonald: 100%. Yes.
Yas Banks: It can span across, can personalise it for yourself. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: Exactly. yeah, I just say it makes your, opinions you can form around like specific design much richer because you're bringing in a multitude of hats and viewpoints. like, for example, with brand identity, it can look brilliant and you'd know it'll look brilliant on pack, but then you think, ⁓ will it look great on social? And how do we, how do you make sure you're navigating a multi-platform approach? Yeah.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: I definitely think that building a career around yourself is 100 % the way to go and I think portfolio careers are going to just become so much more common because the jobs as we know it are really going to change. again, those soft skills like being able to connect with people on a personal level, being able to listen well, being able to interpret a brief well are all things that are just going to continue to be more and more important.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a thousand percent. Yeah. Kind of going off that, I'm going to ask you, what do you wish that the industry talked about more honestly? Is there anything in what you've just spoken about that you feel like they could? It's interesting to know.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ Yeah, a little bit, I think. I wish people spoke a bit more truthfully about portfolios, although they are quite like an individual to studio thing. Like we always say that we really want to see scamps and sketches and mood boards and my maps. But we see a lot of like really like polished and finished work. And I feel like there's very differing opinions and I want an honest conversation about like, what do we actually want to see? Because it's unfair to ask people to tailor it.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: specifically for everyone. I think, being honest, that we're all faking it a little bit.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Eve Macdonald: I think when you're younger you really do kind of hold up like a career in the creative industries is like this like shiny fix all thing but truthfully you will I think you will never feel like you've got it right and that even when you're a design director there's never gonna be a point where you're like yes I know everything I think that's a big one and then I've already mentioned you know power of soft skills and
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Eve Macdonald: personality and just being able to talk ⁓ versus the hard skills that can be taught in studio. Like we want someone who's going to fit culture and it's brilliant if you bring awesome hard skills, that's awesome. But we can't teach you how to think, but we can teach you how to use Illustrator. Like I think that's quite important. And the final one is the, I wish people were more honest about the Northern London gap and the, you know,
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: People do say that there is more opportunity in London, but there are more people going for those opportunities. And the North has an incredible amount of creative talent and studios and agencies and startups and brilliant hub and spoke models for freelancers. It is such a creative hub, so I kind of wish people were a little bit more honest. London's awesome, and don't get me wrong. It's a great place but if you are up north you don't need to move to London. That's what it's for.
Yas Banks: Yeah, I'm a firm believer, I agree, I definitely agree with that one. think there's such a kind of any major city that you can go to. I'm thinking Manchester, I'm thinking Leeds, I'm thinking Liverpool, of course London and down south. I know that there's so many amazing community spaces, there's so many industry opportunities that you're able to step into and chat to each other on LinkedIn. We chatted about this before that you were aware of me through LinkedIn and I know of people through LinkedIn and connecting in that sense and I feel like that's such a nice way to kind of weave yourself into the industry. You don't need to just be based down in London. I remember being in university myself and we had a speaker.
Eve Macdonald: Mm.
Yas Banks: and he was Northern and he felt at the time when he was in university that's where he was meant to be based. You don't anymore like you say yeah there's so many different opportunities floating around up North and yeah it's a really nice welcoming place to be in and of course London East too, I'm just speaking from experience being a Northern. and Northern Gal. ⁓ Yeah and I've been really interested actually to hear a little bit more on portfolios. I know a lot of people will benefit from this. Personally what do you want to see in a portfolio for someone up and coming? Do you want to see them sketches or do you want to see the polished side?
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ I think I say. As someone who's had this kind of like multi-hyphenate career, I want to see your thinking before I see you muck anything up. I think it's easier than ever to make something look really like good. Like there are millions of mock-ups, like there's loads of ways to make things look good. But if the foundational idea isn't there, or you haven't thought it through enough,
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: that's where I think we're really gonna start to fall down and I want to see like the creative thinking. So the benefit of having sketches and scams and mind maps is you can literally follow the connections your brain has made and I think that's part of the individual selling point. Obviously if you do have like amazing beautiful final mock-ups, share them. ⁓ But I want to...
Yas Banks: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: see how you thought it through. And also kind of from a personal perspective of like I've seen quite a few recent grad portfolios, I want to see consistent hierarchy throughout. I want to see what your brief was in like as few sentences as possible and just like a brief outline of what your idea was. I don't need like, you don't need to...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ teach me how to suck eggs, like you don't need to over explain it. The idea should be able to speak for yourself, especially if you've included scamps in your mind map and kind of your early thinking. ⁓ And then you can have a page that just lets like your mock-up and the final execution of it absolutely shine. But I don't, I don't like, I don't want to be searching for it and also be wading through reams of text. Sorry.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. You Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, totally agree. Yeah, again, I have the privilege of being sent a few even as a freelancer and that side of things. And I agree. seeing the finished product is nice. And I feel like, yeah, letting the work speak for itself. So then when you're presenting it or showing it to an internship or a job opportunity. you then are able to get like your personality show like you mentioned before because that again is super key in how you can differentiate yourself from one another. We all know it's very competitive, we all know when you graduate you're all going to be applying for the same or similar roles but I think definitely personality is a big one in the sense of... Yeah, differentiating yourself away from each other and letting that shine in your work. Yeah, a thousand percent. Definitely agree on that one.
Eve Macdonald: You also have to think that hiring directors are quite busy. So they will flick through your portfolio at a fairly rapid pace. And if they can't find what they're looking for, they are just going to skim over it. So making it as easy as possible and accessible as possible, I think is quite key. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Yes. Yeah, yeah, 1000%, 100 % agree. Was there a point where you questioned whether you'd picked the right thing to do in any stage of where you're at now?
Eve Macdonald: Yes, I mean like I said that there'll never be a point where you 100 % like ⁓ I know what I'm doing I've cracked it and I Like I said, I cut my teeth in PR and it's brilliant because it's so fast-paced and you really hit ground running But it's really high pressure and it never let up ⁓ And I had this assumption that like every creative job every agency is just like that and And it's not like a hundred percent depends on the agency or the field that you're working in. ⁓ But I burnt out pretty spectacularly towards the end of my first year working. I was also at that point undiagnosed ADHD and like just having a hard time. And I recovered because I had a really awesome boss who kind of helped me rediscover that work-life balance and that passion I had for design and strategy. there was a point that was definitely the point where I was like, ⁓ my God, like maybe I should just go.
Yas Banks: Yeah. amazing.
Eve Macdonald: you know, put numbers in a spreadsheet and just get a regular office job. Am I even any good at this? But you come back, as long as you can bounce back from it, I think that is, it's really important. That and you've got to embrace the suck a little bit. There's ⁓ this chart, it's called something and I can't remember what it is. It's really good. It's like about the taste skill gap. So.
Yas Banks: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bye.
Eve Macdonald: When I joined Kiss, I was not a brand understanding person. was so far from like being ⁓ in that world. And as my skills developed and as my taste developed, there was a massive gap between like what I wanted to make and what like I could make. And I knew what I was making wasn't...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: good but I wasn't at the skill set yet where I could make the things that I was like yeah no this looks fucking awesome. So you kind of have to embrace the suck for a little bit where you just go okay I'm gonna get better at this and I'm gonna be able to execute it really well but just allow yourself to kind of not be good at stuff for a bit.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Understand that you are still learning. You've run into industry. You can't be comparing yourself to someone that's been 20, 25 years plus at all. All these big agencies have got 10 different faces on one project and you need to...
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, don't compare yourself to pentagram. It's not fair and it'll just make you feel bad.
Yas Banks: yeah, no 100 % 100 % no and I'm really keen if you can after this send over that chart if you can find it and we can pop it in post-production and whilst you're chatting over that yeah and I feel like kind of off the back of that how do you I've got a couple questions popping in my head actually how do how do you kind of bridge that gap in
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, I'll have a look for it. Yeah, go for it.
Yas Banks: where you see something you want to create versus what you actually made. So for example, we'll use like a brand identity, for example, how do you kind of, if it didn't go super, super to plan for whatever reason, skill set, time, budgets, how do you kind of navigate that gap between the two?
Eve Macdonald: So, I think there are maybe three parts to this. The first one is sketch, like don't start on your computer, start with a pen and pencil, because if you can sketch out your idea, it's much easier than to translate it onto the screen.
Yas Banks: Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: you can go okay well I know I want this kind of hierarchy and I know I want these elements here here and here and it just gives you a little bit more power than kind of just putting something together being like ⁓ it looks bad and I don't know why. ⁓ I think having a really good design director, sorry that's not really replicable advice but our design director Alex Phipps is awesome and he's really good at kind
Yas Banks: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: looking over your shoulder and going that doesn't quite work and I think you need and it if you don't have that you have to kind of do it for yourself and go okay this doesn't work and you have to become your own crip person you go okay why doesn't this work and you you will know you just need to think about it fairly critically ⁓ and then the third one is ⁓ reverse engineer it so if you've got a piece that you're like, ⁓ this looks awesome and I don't know why it looks awesome, make it yourself. Like literally copy it, element for element, and then figure out why that hierarchy works when something you made maybe doesn't. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, kind of going on that design director point, even if you don't have that, even if you're thinking about setting up freelance or self-employed or you're not quite in a job as of yet. I feel like communication between different creatives is key. Reach out to someone. If you know someone from your course or you know someone that's a friend of a friend, reach out to them. And if you've got a project.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ my god, absolutely.
Yas Banks: that's even going in your portfolio or you're working self-initiated, you can have them chats, how is it looking, because I get it, you need that fresh set of eyes sometimes kind of like you say over your shoulder and be like that's not quite working, why isn't that? And yeah being really communicative in that sense that yeah, a thousand percent agree on that. And I'm really interested to hear a little bit about how your ADHD kind of fuels or hinders. I'm the same, I'm undiagnosed, but I'm definitely, definitely there. I'm there, I'm there. How do you find either it helps or hinders your creativity as a person and maybe even your career, ⁓ if that's a thing.
Eve Macdonald: you So, like I said, my first boss in this PR industry, ⁓ who's called Sita Wrightson, she's a full-time comedian now, she's brilliant, she's really fucking funny, ⁓ she had ADHD as well. And I got my diagnosis kind of around the same time as her, so we were going through titration at the same time, and she taught me a lot because she'd had to form quite a lot of coping mechanisms without the medication. And a lot of them were kind of more for a very corporate environment rather than a creative area. But it's stuff like impulse control. really learning to, and I love interrupting people, it's the most annoying trait about me. But if a client is talking, learning to really listen, and my trick is I literally put my hand over my mouth. Like I literally have to do this.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, nice. Yeah, yeah, just to stop it.
Eve Macdonald: just literally stop me from talking or the that some things I've really struggled with like deadlines and and like working hours like I'm always much better from kind of like seven till nine than I am kind of like nine a.m. to about 11 o'clock in the morning ⁓ but also because I've got I'm I'm medicated which is brilliant I'm I'm on Elvance it's brilliant ⁓ I I
Yas Banks: Yep.
Eve Macdonald: I think my ADHD is brilliant, absolutely awesome for creative thinking because you make these like dispersed creative connections that create new combinations that I've never seen before. So if I know I've got a really like heavy creative thinking afternoon or morning, I'll try and time them so that I can really access that kind of full superpower. But if I know I've got a very admin heavy day or like I'm going to be writing a full article. take the minute it evens out over time but and the other thing is it's not a distractor because everyone in the creative industry seems to have something like not everyone's on the spectrum however we are a creative lot and birds of a feather tend to flock together so there do seem to be quite a lot of us so I think it's very forgiving and as long as you've got a really good
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: Account manager who'll crack the whip when you're like, ⁓ I'm just going to go and do some messing about there Like no, actually you you do have a deadline sit down ⁓ Yeah, it just Career wise it's it it can detract depending on the environment you're in there are coping mechanisms which are absolutely brilliant like covering your mouth or having external Deadline reminders so setting them on your phone for a few days before it's actually due
Yas Banks: You got it. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ But also it's very much a human thing. I find body doubling. I'm in the office five days a week, partly because I'm much more productive when there's someone literally sitting next to me. ⁓ So if you are freelance, so kind of going into those co-working spaces and building that rapport with people, I think really helps.
Yas Banks: Nice. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm the same. I like to be around people, even if it's not directly with people, but even next to someone in a coffee shop or like you say, a co-working space really kind of helps me zone in and do what I'm doing. And yeah, I feel like that is going to help people that may feel like they've got ADHD tendencies and that kind of shows up in different ways for them. As you probably know, it'll show up.
Eve Macdonald: Mmm.
Yas Banks: differently myself than it would to you and the next person and it's yeah about ⁓ coping with mechanisms and how that can show up in your work and and definitely use it like you say and I love that that that phrase is a superpower a thousand percent because it is it's like it's how your brain works differently to the next person and in in such a nice nice kind of energetic sometimes way but but but a helpful helpful way 100 percent.
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, 100%.
Yas Banks: Yeah and off the back of that you may have answered it and let me know if you have. What is the kind of the part of the job that still doesn't get easier or feel easier either day to day, month to month, whatever?
Eve Macdonald: It's such a hard question, but I think partly being wrong. There are so many right answers to any one creative brief, but there are some answers which are more right. ⁓ So you need to really learn to not treat any creative like your baby. And it's really quite easy to get attached to ideas, but it's a group project. Everything is a ⁓ collaboration.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: It's collaboration between you and client. It's collaboration between you and your studio. Everything is collaborative. So the quicker you kind of let it go and just let opinions and pieces kind of take their shape, the better it is. And everyone wants to do a good job. That's the other thing. Like, no, it's never personal. And then I think the other part is like working on personal projects in your spare time.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ We all know that we should be doing that. But the personal project I'm working on at the moment is very much more kind of community basis, it's pencil it in. It's really because I feel like there aren't as many opportunities for creative community within Leeds as there could be. So trying to build up that space. But that's not very output focused and I can't really put it in a portfolio.
Yas Banks: haha Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: and then balancing it with gym and social life and family and friends. ⁓ So I think forgiving yourself for not doing personal projects is always going to be really hard. ⁓ And then imposter syndrome. I mean, we all know it, but taking yourself seriously.
Yas Banks: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I'm keen to if you want to chat a little bit more about pencil in pencil, it's in leads. Go ahead. I'm intrigued to know about how you find it helpful for people, how people kind of find it for themselves and how you found it so far kind of working, working on that.
Eve Macdonald: It's been brilliant, to be honest. That's such a lame answer. No, it's been really fun and it's been such a cool project to be able to get off the ground because Eventbrite doesn't really feel fit for purpose for the creative industries. Its tagging system isn't really good enough because you'll type in like creative networking events and it'll come up with like baby time sensory jam. And you'll be like, this is not really relevant for me wanting to connect with other peers in my network.
Yas Banks: No, it's not. Mm-hmm. You
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ And people who I know use it have said that it's really nice to just have one place where they can see these kinds of events all together because it gives you the opportunity to maybe network outside of your network, if that makes sense. ⁓ Just connect with people who maybe you wouldn't go to the same event as necessarily normally. But yeah, that's been a really cool part of it.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And personally, how do you find the connection, like, is important for creative industries?
Eve Macdonald: It's so important. ⁓ I can't overstate the importance of having a solid network, especially like in Leeds, we're a big city of small to medium to a couple of larger agencies, but there's a lot of kind of the small to medium ones. And I think a lot of the older cohort of designers and now agency founders and leaders came up.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: together in certain studios, so it needs, there's a lot of Elmwood who kind of all came up together and they all know each other and they all can kind of go to each other for various things. I think we need to, as younger designers and people who fresh into the industry, it is so much better for us if we can go, ⁓ if we hear a project where they're like, ⁓ yeah, we're looking for brilliant copywriter you go ⁓ yeah actually I do know a brilliant copywriter let me recommend them because the more good work we do cross-referral the more good work there is for everyone I think yeah
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, leaning back on your network and I mentioned it a little bit before, kind of if you've got, yeah, things that you need a fresh eye on and you've not got a design director or hire a team or anything wider, it's really, really crucial to kind of have those people around you that you can lean back on and say, hey, what about this? Or even if you've got concerns or... like you're feeling a bit wobbly about anything or I think yeah it's really crucial to have those connections and that network like you say and just to go out there and meet new people like we're all in the same boat we've all got an interest in being creative and things like that so and that's when you're going to events and spaces and things like that it is important to understand that and not let that keep you back from going.
Eve Macdonald: It's think people view networking sometimes as this big scary thing that you've got to take really seriously, you've got have business cards or something. But in truth, it's just an opportunity to talk to people about something you are also really passionate about and hear about the projects they're working on and just have a friendly chat. And if we just treat it like, let's make a friend, it's fresh as week, it makes life a lot easier for everyone.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Definitely, yeah. Yeah, reminding people that it's not, yeah, the scurry. You're in the suit. You have to have a formal conversation with someone networking. It's not. And I feel like that is part of being in a creative career, is that networking side of things. And I definitely have missed that side when it was COVID and the pandemic. they feel like it dropped off massively for obvious reasons and then in the recent years it's still not picked up as much. I'm feeling and finding that it's starting to pick up now but just connecting with old faces and meeting new faces is yeah really great.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ hugely. Yeah, I think I've got a point on it not picking up quite as quickly as we would have hoped post-COVID but I think one of my guiding principles personally I suppose is fuck it I'll do it myself. So if something doesn't exist and you really want it to exist, do it, make it, people will come. Even if it's small to start with, people will come. There is...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: community out there kind of waiting and ready and if you are the person to do it they will they will come. ⁓ So yeah that's kind of like I think we should we should all be working towards building more more community and more spaces but yeah.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah, yes, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. I'm a huge advocate for that as well. Like just do it, just make it, just make it happen 100%. Yeah. And I feel like it's kind of a nice point to end on and land on. If you were kind of starting out now and like we...
Eve Macdonald: Just do it!
Yas Banks: joining everything and even maybe degree-wise wherever you find your mind go into that when this question's asked. Knowing what you know now and how things are, is there anything you'd do differently and what would that be?
Eve Macdonald: Mmm I don't think I would change to a degree in design. I loved my degree, it was super fun. I think I've managed, I've been really lucky to be able to bring my fine art influences into my design practice. at high school I did a BTEC ⁓ that let me learn a lot of like illustrator and Photoshop and kind of like it was very practical and very hands on. So I'm quite lucky because of that I didn't. to have that skill set developed kind of as I was going. ⁓ I think I'd start networking way earlier. ⁓ was at Creative Boom Leeds a couple of weeks back and there were a bunch of Leeds Art students and they were really good, they were brilliant networkers, they were interested in people, they asked great questions. ⁓ So I think students now are probably aware of the value of networking but I'd start way earlier.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Nice. Mm-hmm. You
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ I'd probably snag a mentor much earlier as well. I got a mentor about three years into my career and it wasn't like an official one. It was just a guy I knew. ⁓ James Peershot who works at Tungsten, he's a Ned and he just, it was really good to like go have a dinner with, bang out with some like creative understanding or like career understanding or just run some creative ideas past. I think just having
Yas Banks: Interesting, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: someone more senior than you that you can really bounce off early in your career is so useful. ⁓ And like the power of going to like dinners and IRL coffees are really important. ⁓ And I think I'd work harder. No, I think I would work to build something earlier. think earlier in my career, I really thought everything had to go through.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hahaha!
Eve Macdonald: the agency I was working for, but building your own thing on the side, I think, is really powerful and is a great credit to your thinking. like social media is free. Substack is free. Like if you, if you, if it's something that appeals to you, I mean, if you want to just like go and and make stuff in a studio and stay quiet, that's absolutely like a valid career option too. But I think visibility is a big thing.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm
Eve Macdonald: nowadays so and it's free to become visible. So I think that's a big one. And going to industry events, oh my god, I can't believe I wasted so many years. Like going to Northern Design Festival, D &AD, I take advantage of programs like that as well. Like Can Young Lions and School of Thought and like all of those exist to give you a leg up? It's not a weakness to go
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. You Mm-hmm. They do. No.
Eve Macdonald: go take advantage of them because they're there for you and they're really fun and they're brilliant experience. So yeah, I think those are the kind of things I'd probably do. I was really sad I never got to do a DNA DNA.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Nice. No, well, I am thinking, I think we got the opportunity to kind of enter those student competitions. I don't think I, I think I worked on a different project at that time in university, but a thousand percent agree, like get involved. Just, yeah. And I really liked the point of being visible, even if that doesn't feel natural to you right now. Like you may be kind of an introvert in that sense, but putting yourself out there on social media, like you say, it's free. LinkedIn may take a little while to kind of grow and kind of get you right in the cross well. But visibility is so key because someone will remember you and you meet someone at an event or networking. And it's a nice little cycle and definitely just get out there and don't be afraid because like we said before, everyone is in the same boat as each other.
Eve Macdonald: friendly. You can apply two rules which is one, cringe is dead. If you think it's cringe it'll become cringe but if you don't care it can never be. And apply a spider rule to networking they're probably more afraid of you than you are of them so both quite you know like you'll be fine.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes and I think Cringes Dead is definitely the nice kind of way to sit and just realise and remember everyone that just do it, just go for it, Cringes Dead just do it. We're not taking that off Nike or anything like that, that is our own words, trademark, nope. Well this has been a lovely chat.
Eve Macdonald: Do it.
Yas Banks: I've really enjoyed it, really enjoyed hearing your thoughts and things like that. so all things reality of creative careers and if anyone wants to find anything more about penciling, lead Manchester and yourself, we're working to find that.
Eve Macdonald: So all on my LinkedIn profile, I'm just Eve MacDonald. I've got a very cute picture of me like this. ⁓ Maybe not by the time this is said, ⁓ but I'm just Eve MacDonald. I work at Kiss Branding. You'll find pencil in Leeds and Manchester both in my bio. I also write a sub stack called Brands That Kiss, no I don't, it's called Just A Little Kiss. ⁓ which is where I explore brand and culture and the way that it intersects and moves culture in the UK. But all of those you'll be able to find via my LinkedIn or via the Kiss website, I think. That one I need to check.
Yas Banks: Amazing, amazing, amazing. ⁓ good, we can double check things and pop information everywhere. Well, yeah, thank you very much. This has been Ace.
Eve Macdonald: This has been awesome, it's been so lovely to speak to you, you're so lovely.
Yas Banks: Yes. Thank you.
Eve Macdonald: fresh. Nice one! I've got them here. Kind of reply tea.
Yas Banks: Host mode. Welcome to Open Studio. We are here with Eve today. We are here to discuss the reality of creative careers. So Eve McDonald joined Kiss Branding in 2025 as a junior designer. She evolved into a tailored role of both creative strategy and business growth. Her background spans across fine art, PR, marketing, advertising and brands. a vast experience. She graduated in 2023 with a degree in fine art and history of art and has spent the time since moving fluidly across the creative industries as he sells what she might be doing too. She's passionate about cross-pollination of ideas and industries and thinks that coming from the wrong background can be really helpful, which is what we can discuss today. Outside of Kiss, Eve runs Pencil in Leeds, a community calendar connecting creatives across the city because she knows how isolating those first years are in the industry and can be and thinks nobody should have to navigate the creative industries alone. She's a firm believer that a wobbly career path can build better creatives. So that will nicely flow us into what we're going to be chatting about today, which the episode is the reality of being creative and creative careers. So Eve, I know I've just given a nice little intro that you've kindly provided for us but if you want to just chat a little bit if there's anything to expand on on that go ahead now's your time introduce yourself.
Eve Macdonald: introduction. So hello, I'm Eve. You've covered a lot of my points to be honest. Obviously I work at Case Branding in Leeds. I went to the University of Leeds to do my fine art and history of art degree ⁓ and graduated into a pandemic kind of like the back end of it and it was all looking kind of sad for the creative industries at that point.
Yas Banks: Ha ha ha. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ So I started out as a social media executive for a PR company. And then within my first week, the graphic designer left. And so suddenly I was being asked to do kind of big campaigns and it was brilliant. I really like really hit the ground running. So that's kind of where I cut my teeth and I did loads of really fun shoots and all that kind of stuff. And from there I've decided to move across into brand ⁓ and I run pencil in.
Yas Banks: Nice. Mm-hmm. nice. Nice.
Eve Macdonald: and we run events for creatives. And we launched in Manchester like last month, two months ago, which is brilliant.
Yas Banks: Amazing. Nice. Nice. So yeah, you mentioned the pandemic there. I'm sure a lot of people can kind of relate in the sense of they've maybe stepped into a career early on and that was in the pandemic or still kind of figuring it out how that looked. And how did that feel for you kind of graduating into that? Maybe like you say, yeah, the latter end of that, but did you find an effect to either the final years of your education and kind of connecting to industry versus into graduating?
Eve Macdonald: 100%. So I had, in 2020, I had lined up a curatorial, what's called like internship at Howard House. And the day I was supposed to do my final interview for it was the day all the borders closed. It all just shut down. So as someone who kind of anticipated going into curating and fine art, those avenues were much much more shut. So ⁓ I was actually working at a pub at the time and I loved it. I was a manager at this pub and I ran their social media. I volunteered to run their social media because I mean like everyone needed social media. I thought I had a basic understanding of it. I got really into like the back end of it ⁓ and so by the time I graduated
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nice.
Eve Macdonald: I had this portfolio of fake work that really helped open doors for me because I already had ⁓ a real client that I could show people and go, yeah, this is the pub that I run the social media for. And I also did it for a lot of the societies that I was part of at university because everything was digital. So I think it was just a of a ⁓ lateral move of it's still at least creative.
Yas Banks: Nice. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ And then discovering I had a real passion for the kind of like tech side of it the statistics and manage it. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Nice, nice, yeah nice. Yeah it's interesting how you kind of find yourself when you're faced with a weird situation like that was and how you can naturally kind of navigate that world and slot yourself in and kind of find what interests you and where you want to push. And I'm really interested in kind of hearing a little bit about how you went from fine art into now a graphic designer because I know a lot of our students kind of go from one end to the other and explore different careers. I'm really keen and really interested in kind of finding that out.
Eve Macdonald: I saying... Kiss Studio specifically, we tend to hire quite diversely. mean, one of our mid-weight designers is his background's film. Like he worked in film for quite a few years before switching to design. And I think a lot of those skills, especially soft skills that you might expect are not applicable, are entirely applicable. I think a lot of studio, I think a mistake people kind of make when they're...
Yas Banks: Nice.
Eve Macdonald: moving across careers as they worry that, ⁓ this is a detractor, like if you'd been a teacher for a while or if you'd worked as a consultant. But I always think that it actually gives you so like a much better problem solving perspective. And that is essentially what graphic design is, is problem solving.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. I'll leave some. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So kind of leading on from that, what does a career in design actually look like and feel like for you? I know you may be still feel like you're new into that world, but how does that feeling look for you? But from where you're standing right now, kind of being newer into the industry.
Eve Macdonald: I think we all have to accept that the traditional path of like junior, mid-weight, senior isn't really as applicable as it used to be. There's a lot more wobble, but it's a good thing. Multi-hyphenate creatives are very much becoming something people want. So whether you've done a little bit of time in UX, you've done a little bit of social, you've done marketing, you've done advertising, it's absolutely... benefit to have those. ⁓ And I think also, from my perspective is very much working in a small studio, I've had the benefit of being able to create a career role around my skill set. So like the idea of an individual contributor, like nobody hired me to do the job I'm doing now. But it's been built because I know I've learned what I'm good at. And also this studio I work for is
Yas Banks: Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eve Macdonald: brilliant and they recognise where my talents lie.
Yas Banks: Yeah, amazing. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I'm a huge believer in that. As you say, the junior, mid-weight, senior, does it really fit? And I understand that people may need that to hire and kind of wage brackets and that kind of side of things. But as myself, I'm a freelancer away from working with Shillington and I have never labelled myself as a junior or mid-weight. I know kind of where I am in. in the experience I have. But like you say, it's nice to step into roles and especially as Kiss has given me an opportunity to kind of shape your role and how that looks and feels for you and benefits you as a creative because you're able to use your experience and grow in a different way. And yeah, it's really interesting how not necessarily there's a job right now here in the world, but 10 years time there might be. And that I feel, I always find that so interesting because 10 years ago, there's probably, for example, content creators, little to none, like that side of vibe and things, like they didn't exist. And I just find that it's so interesting. It's so inspiring, I think, especially for people kind of up and coming into the industry to know that a typical designer role isn't just a designer role now.
Eve Macdonald: 100%. Yes.
Yas Banks: It can span across, can personalise it for yourself. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: Exactly. yeah, I just say it makes your, opinions you can form around like specific design much richer because you're bringing in a multitude of hats and viewpoints. like, for example, with brand identity, it can look brilliant and you'd know it'll look brilliant on pack, but then you think, ⁓ will it look great on social? And how do we, how do you make sure you're navigating a multi-platform approach? Yeah.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: I definitely think that building a career around yourself is 100 % the way to go and I think portfolio careers are going to just become so much more common because the jobs as we know it are really going to change. again, those soft skills like being able to connect with people on a personal level, being able to listen well, being able to interpret a brief well are all things that are just going to continue to be more and more important.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a thousand percent. Yeah. Kind of going off that, I'm going to ask you, what do you wish that the industry talked about more honestly? Is there anything in what you've just spoken about that you feel like they could? It's interesting to know.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ Yeah, a little bit, I think. I wish people spoke a bit more truthfully about portfolios, although they are quite like an individual to studio thing. Like we always say that we really want to see scamps and sketches and mood boards and my maps. But we see a lot of like really like polished and finished work. And I feel like there's very differing opinions and I want an honest conversation about like, what do we actually want to see? Because it's unfair to ask people to tailor it.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: specifically for everyone. I think, being honest, that we're all faking it a little bit.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Eve Macdonald: I think when you're younger you really do kind of hold up like a career in the creative industries is like this like shiny fix all thing but truthfully you will I think you will never feel like you've got it right and that even when you're a design director there's never gonna be a point where you're like yes I know everything I think that's a big one and then I've already mentioned you know power of soft skills and
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Eve Macdonald: personality and just being able to talk ⁓ versus the hard skills that can be taught in studio. Like we want someone who's going to fit culture and it's brilliant if you bring awesome hard skills, that's awesome. But we can't teach you how to think, but we can teach you how to use Illustrator. Like I think that's quite important. And the final one is the, I wish people were more honest about the Northern London gap and the, you know,
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: People do say that there is more opportunity in London, but there are more people going for those opportunities. And the North has an incredible amount of creative talent and studios and agencies and startups and brilliant hub and spoke models for freelancers. It is such a creative hub, so I kind of wish people were a little bit more honest. London's awesome, and don't get me wrong. It's a great place but if you are up north you don't need to move to London. That's what it's for.
Yas Banks: Yeah, I'm a firm believer, I agree, I definitely agree with that one. think there's such a kind of any major city that you can go to. I'm thinking Manchester, I'm thinking Leeds, I'm thinking Liverpool, of course London and down south. I know that there's so many amazing community spaces, there's so many industry opportunities that you're able to step into and chat to each other on LinkedIn. We chatted about this before that you were aware of me through LinkedIn and I know of people through LinkedIn and connecting in that sense and I feel like that's such a nice way to kind of weave yourself into the industry. You don't need to just be based down in London. I remember being in university myself and we had a speaker.
Eve Macdonald: Mm.
Yas Banks: and he was Northern and he felt at the time when he was in university that's where he was meant to be based. You don't anymore like you say yeah there's so many different opportunities floating around up North and yeah it's a really nice welcoming place to be in and of course London East too, I'm just speaking from experience being a Northern. and Northern Gal. ⁓ Yeah and I've been really interested actually to hear a little bit more on portfolios. I know a lot of people will benefit from this. Personally what do you want to see in a portfolio for someone up and coming? Do you want to see them sketches or do you want to see the polished side?
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ I think I say. As someone who's had this kind of like multi-hyphenate career, I want to see your thinking before I see you muck anything up. I think it's easier than ever to make something look really like good. Like there are millions of mock-ups, like there's loads of ways to make things look good. But if the foundational idea isn't there, or you haven't thought it through enough,
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: that's where I think we're really gonna start to fall down and I want to see like the creative thinking. So the benefit of having sketches and scams and mind maps is you can literally follow the connections your brain has made and I think that's part of the individual selling point. Obviously if you do have like amazing beautiful final mock-ups, share them. ⁓ But I want to...
Yas Banks: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: see how you thought it through. And also kind of from a personal perspective of like I've seen quite a few recent grad portfolios, I want to see consistent hierarchy throughout. I want to see what your brief was in like as few sentences as possible and just like a brief outline of what your idea was. I don't need like, you don't need to...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ teach me how to suck eggs, like you don't need to over explain it. The idea should be able to speak for yourself, especially if you've included scamps in your mind map and kind of your early thinking. ⁓ And then you can have a page that just lets like your mock-up and the final execution of it absolutely shine. But I don't, I don't like, I don't want to be searching for it and also be wading through reams of text. Sorry.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. You Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, totally agree. Yeah, again, I have the privilege of being sent a few even as a freelancer and that side of things. And I agree. seeing the finished product is nice. And I feel like, yeah, letting the work speak for itself. So then when you're presenting it or showing it to an internship or a job opportunity. you then are able to get like your personality show like you mentioned before because that again is super key in how you can differentiate yourself from one another. We all know it's very competitive, we all know when you graduate you're all going to be applying for the same or similar roles but I think definitely personality is a big one in the sense of... Yeah, differentiating yourself away from each other and letting that shine in your work. Yeah, a thousand percent. Definitely agree on that one.
Eve Macdonald: You also have to think that hiring directors are quite busy. So they will flick through your portfolio at a fairly rapid pace. And if they can't find what they're looking for, they are just going to skim over it. So making it as easy as possible and accessible as possible, I think is quite key. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Yes. Yeah, yeah, 1000%, 100 % agree. Was there a point where you questioned whether you'd picked the right thing to do in any stage of where you're at now?
Eve Macdonald: Yes, I mean like I said that there'll never be a point where you 100 % like ⁓ I know what I'm doing I've cracked it and I Like I said, I cut my teeth in PR and it's brilliant because it's so fast-paced and you really hit ground running But it's really high pressure and it never let up ⁓ And I had this assumption that like every creative job every agency is just like that and And it's not like a hundred percent depends on the agency or the field that you're working in. ⁓ But I burnt out pretty spectacularly towards the end of my first year working. I was also at that point undiagnosed ADHD and like just having a hard time. And I recovered because I had a really awesome boss who kind of helped me rediscover that work-life balance and that passion I had for design and strategy. there was a point that was definitely the point where I was like, ⁓ my God, like maybe I should just go.
Yas Banks: Yeah. amazing.
Eve Macdonald: you know, put numbers in a spreadsheet and just get a regular office job. Am I even any good at this? But you come back, as long as you can bounce back from it, I think that is, it's really important. That and you've got to embrace the suck a little bit. There's ⁓ this chart, it's called something and I can't remember what it is. It's really good. It's like about the taste skill gap. So.
Yas Banks: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bye.
Eve Macdonald: When I joined Kiss, I was not a brand understanding person. was so far from like being ⁓ in that world. And as my skills developed and as my taste developed, there was a massive gap between like what I wanted to make and what like I could make. And I knew what I was making wasn't...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: good but I wasn't at the skill set yet where I could make the things that I was like yeah no this looks fucking awesome. So you kind of have to embrace the suck for a little bit where you just go okay I'm gonna get better at this and I'm gonna be able to execute it really well but just allow yourself to kind of not be good at stuff for a bit.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Understand that you are still learning. You've run into industry. You can't be comparing yourself to someone that's been 20, 25 years plus at all. All these big agencies have got 10 different faces on one project and you need to...
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, don't compare yourself to pentagram. It's not fair and it'll just make you feel bad.
Yas Banks: yeah, no 100 % 100 % no and I'm really keen if you can after this send over that chart if you can find it and we can pop it in post-production and whilst you're chatting over that yeah and I feel like kind of off the back of that how do you I've got a couple questions popping in my head actually how do how do you kind of bridge that gap in
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, I'll have a look for it. Yeah, go for it.
Yas Banks: where you see something you want to create versus what you actually made. So for example, we'll use like a brand identity, for example, how do you kind of, if it didn't go super, super to plan for whatever reason, skill set, time, budgets, how do you kind of navigate that gap between the two?
Eve Macdonald: So, I think there are maybe three parts to this. The first one is sketch, like don't start on your computer, start with a pen and pencil, because if you can sketch out your idea, it's much easier than to translate it onto the screen.
Yas Banks: Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: you can go okay well I know I want this kind of hierarchy and I know I want these elements here here and here and it just gives you a little bit more power than kind of just putting something together being like ⁓ it looks bad and I don't know why. ⁓ I think having a really good design director, sorry that's not really replicable advice but our design director Alex Phipps is awesome and he's really good at kind
Yas Banks: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: looking over your shoulder and going that doesn't quite work and I think you need and it if you don't have that you have to kind of do it for yourself and go okay this doesn't work and you have to become your own crip person you go okay why doesn't this work and you you will know you just need to think about it fairly critically ⁓ and then the third one is ⁓ reverse engineer it so if you've got a piece that you're like, ⁓ this looks awesome and I don't know why it looks awesome, make it yourself. Like literally copy it, element for element, and then figure out why that hierarchy works when something you made maybe doesn't. Yeah.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, kind of going on that design director point, even if you don't have that, even if you're thinking about setting up freelance or self-employed or you're not quite in a job as of yet. I feel like communication between different creatives is key. Reach out to someone. If you know someone from your course or you know someone that's a friend of a friend, reach out to them. And if you've got a project.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ my god, absolutely.
Yas Banks: that's even going in your portfolio or you're working self-initiated, you can have them chats, how is it looking, because I get it, you need that fresh set of eyes sometimes kind of like you say over your shoulder and be like that's not quite working, why isn't that? And yeah being really communicative in that sense that yeah, a thousand percent agree on that. And I'm really interested to hear a little bit about how your ADHD kind of fuels or hinders. I'm the same, I'm undiagnosed, but I'm definitely, definitely there. I'm there, I'm there. How do you find either it helps or hinders your creativity as a person and maybe even your career, ⁓ if that's a thing.
Eve Macdonald: you So, like I said, my first boss in this PR industry, ⁓ who's called Sita Wrightson, she's a full-time comedian now, she's brilliant, she's really fucking funny, ⁓ she had ADHD as well. And I got my diagnosis kind of around the same time as her, so we were going through titration at the same time, and she taught me a lot because she'd had to form quite a lot of coping mechanisms without the medication. And a lot of them were kind of more for a very corporate environment rather than a creative area. But it's stuff like impulse control. really learning to, and I love interrupting people, it's the most annoying trait about me. But if a client is talking, learning to really listen, and my trick is I literally put my hand over my mouth. Like I literally have to do this.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, nice. Yeah, yeah, just to stop it.
Eve Macdonald: just literally stop me from talking or the that some things I've really struggled with like deadlines and and like working hours like I'm always much better from kind of like seven till nine than I am kind of like nine a.m. to about 11 o'clock in the morning ⁓ but also because I've got I'm I'm medicated which is brilliant I'm I'm on Elvance it's brilliant ⁓ I I
Yas Banks: Yep.
Eve Macdonald: I think my ADHD is brilliant, absolutely awesome for creative thinking because you make these like dispersed creative connections that create new combinations that I've never seen before. So if I know I've got a really like heavy creative thinking afternoon or morning, I'll try and time them so that I can really access that kind of full superpower. But if I know I've got a very admin heavy day or like I'm going to be writing a full article. take the minute it evens out over time but and the other thing is it's not a distractor because everyone in the creative industry seems to have something like not everyone's on the spectrum however we are a creative lot and birds of a feather tend to flock together so there do seem to be quite a lot of us so I think it's very forgiving and as long as you've got a really good
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: Account manager who'll crack the whip when you're like, ⁓ I'm just going to go and do some messing about there Like no, actually you you do have a deadline sit down ⁓ Yeah, it just Career wise it's it it can detract depending on the environment you're in there are coping mechanisms which are absolutely brilliant like covering your mouth or having external Deadline reminders so setting them on your phone for a few days before it's actually due
Yas Banks: You got it. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ But also it's very much a human thing. I find body doubling. I'm in the office five days a week, partly because I'm much more productive when there's someone literally sitting next to me. ⁓ So if you are freelance, so kind of going into those co-working spaces and building that rapport with people, I think really helps.
Yas Banks: Nice. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm the same. I like to be around people, even if it's not directly with people, but even next to someone in a coffee shop or like you say, a co-working space really kind of helps me zone in and do what I'm doing. And yeah, I feel like that is going to help people that may feel like they've got ADHD tendencies and that kind of shows up in different ways for them. As you probably know, it'll show up.
Eve Macdonald: Mmm.
Yas Banks: differently myself than it would to you and the next person and it's yeah about ⁓ coping with mechanisms and how that can show up in your work and and definitely use it like you say and I love that that that phrase is a superpower a thousand percent because it is it's like it's how your brain works differently to the next person and in in such a nice nice kind of energetic sometimes way but but but a helpful helpful way 100 percent.
Eve Macdonald: Yeah, 100%.
Yas Banks: Yeah and off the back of that you may have answered it and let me know if you have. What is the kind of the part of the job that still doesn't get easier or feel easier either day to day, month to month, whatever?
Eve Macdonald: It's such a hard question, but I think partly being wrong. There are so many right answers to any one creative brief, but there are some answers which are more right. ⁓ So you need to really learn to not treat any creative like your baby. And it's really quite easy to get attached to ideas, but it's a group project. Everything is a ⁓ collaboration.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: It's collaboration between you and client. It's collaboration between you and your studio. Everything is collaborative. So the quicker you kind of let it go and just let opinions and pieces kind of take their shape, the better it is. And everyone wants to do a good job. That's the other thing. Like, no, it's never personal. And then I think the other part is like working on personal projects in your spare time.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ We all know that we should be doing that. But the personal project I'm working on at the moment is very much more kind of community basis, it's pencil it in. It's really because I feel like there aren't as many opportunities for creative community within Leeds as there could be. So trying to build up that space. But that's not very output focused and I can't really put it in a portfolio.
Yas Banks: haha Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.
Eve Macdonald: and then balancing it with gym and social life and family and friends. ⁓ So I think forgiving yourself for not doing personal projects is always going to be really hard. ⁓ And then imposter syndrome. I mean, we all know it, but taking yourself seriously.
Yas Banks: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I'm keen to if you want to chat a little bit more about pencil in pencil, it's in leads. Go ahead. I'm intrigued to know about how you find it helpful for people, how people kind of find it for themselves and how you found it so far kind of working, working on that.
Eve Macdonald: It's been brilliant, to be honest. That's such a lame answer. No, it's been really fun and it's been such a cool project to be able to get off the ground because Eventbrite doesn't really feel fit for purpose for the creative industries. Its tagging system isn't really good enough because you'll type in like creative networking events and it'll come up with like baby time sensory jam. And you'll be like, this is not really relevant for me wanting to connect with other peers in my network.
Yas Banks: No, it's not. Mm-hmm. You
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ And people who I know use it have said that it's really nice to just have one place where they can see these kinds of events all together because it gives you the opportunity to maybe network outside of your network, if that makes sense. ⁓ Just connect with people who maybe you wouldn't go to the same event as necessarily normally. But yeah, that's been a really cool part of it.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And personally, how do you find the connection, like, is important for creative industries?
Eve Macdonald: It's so important. ⁓ I can't overstate the importance of having a solid network, especially like in Leeds, we're a big city of small to medium to a couple of larger agencies, but there's a lot of kind of the small to medium ones. And I think a lot of the older cohort of designers and now agency founders and leaders came up.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: together in certain studios, so it needs, there's a lot of Elmwood who kind of all came up together and they all know each other and they all can kind of go to each other for various things. I think we need to, as younger designers and people who fresh into the industry, it is so much better for us if we can go, ⁓ if we hear a project where they're like, ⁓ yeah, we're looking for brilliant copywriter you go ⁓ yeah actually I do know a brilliant copywriter let me recommend them because the more good work we do cross-referral the more good work there is for everyone I think yeah
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, leaning back on your network and I mentioned it a little bit before, kind of if you've got, yeah, things that you need a fresh eye on and you've not got a design director or hire a team or anything wider, it's really, really crucial to kind of have those people around you that you can lean back on and say, hey, what about this? Or even if you've got concerns or... like you're feeling a bit wobbly about anything or I think yeah it's really crucial to have those connections and that network like you say and just to go out there and meet new people like we're all in the same boat we've all got an interest in being creative and things like that so and that's when you're going to events and spaces and things like that it is important to understand that and not let that keep you back from going.
Eve Macdonald: It's think people view networking sometimes as this big scary thing that you've got to take really seriously, you've got have business cards or something. But in truth, it's just an opportunity to talk to people about something you are also really passionate about and hear about the projects they're working on and just have a friendly chat. And if we just treat it like, let's make a friend, it's fresh as week, it makes life a lot easier for everyone.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Definitely, yeah. Yeah, reminding people that it's not, yeah, the scurry. You're in the suit. You have to have a formal conversation with someone networking. It's not. And I feel like that is part of being in a creative career, is that networking side of things. And I definitely have missed that side when it was COVID and the pandemic. they feel like it dropped off massively for obvious reasons and then in the recent years it's still not picked up as much. I'm feeling and finding that it's starting to pick up now but just connecting with old faces and meeting new faces is yeah really great.
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ hugely. Yeah, I think I've got a point on it not picking up quite as quickly as we would have hoped post-COVID but I think one of my guiding principles personally I suppose is fuck it I'll do it myself. So if something doesn't exist and you really want it to exist, do it, make it, people will come. Even if it's small to start with, people will come. There is...
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: community out there kind of waiting and ready and if you are the person to do it they will they will come. ⁓ So yeah that's kind of like I think we should we should all be working towards building more more community and more spaces but yeah.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Yeah, yes, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. I'm a huge advocate for that as well. Like just do it, just make it, just make it happen 100%. Yeah. And I feel like it's kind of a nice point to end on and land on. If you were kind of starting out now and like we...
Eve Macdonald: Just do it!
Yas Banks: joining everything and even maybe degree-wise wherever you find your mind go into that when this question's asked. Knowing what you know now and how things are, is there anything you'd do differently and what would that be?
Eve Macdonald: Mmm I don't think I would change to a degree in design. I loved my degree, it was super fun. I think I've managed, I've been really lucky to be able to bring my fine art influences into my design practice. at high school I did a BTEC ⁓ that let me learn a lot of like illustrator and Photoshop and kind of like it was very practical and very hands on. So I'm quite lucky because of that I didn't. to have that skill set developed kind of as I was going. ⁓ I think I'd start networking way earlier. ⁓ was at Creative Boom Leeds a couple of weeks back and there were a bunch of Leeds Art students and they were really good, they were brilliant networkers, they were interested in people, they asked great questions. ⁓ So I think students now are probably aware of the value of networking but I'd start way earlier.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Nice. Mm-hmm. You
Eve Macdonald: ⁓ I'd probably snag a mentor much earlier as well. I got a mentor about three years into my career and it wasn't like an official one. It was just a guy I knew. ⁓ James Peershot who works at Tungsten, he's a Ned and he just, it was really good to like go have a dinner with, bang out with some like creative understanding or like career understanding or just run some creative ideas past. I think just having
Yas Banks: Interesting, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm.
Eve Macdonald: someone more senior than you that you can really bounce off early in your career is so useful. ⁓ And like the power of going to like dinners and IRL coffees are really important. ⁓ And I think I'd work harder. No, I think I would work to build something earlier. think earlier in my career, I really thought everything had to go through.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hahaha!
Eve Macdonald: the agency I was working for, but building your own thing on the side, I think, is really powerful and is a great credit to your thinking. like social media is free. Substack is free. Like if you, if you, if it's something that appeals to you, I mean, if you want to just like go and and make stuff in a studio and stay quiet, that's absolutely like a valid career option too. But I think visibility is a big thing.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm
Eve Macdonald: nowadays so and it's free to become visible. So I think that's a big one. And going to industry events, oh my god, I can't believe I wasted so many years. Like going to Northern Design Festival, D &AD, I take advantage of programs like that as well. Like Can Young Lions and School of Thought and like all of those exist to give you a leg up? It's not a weakness to go
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. You Mm-hmm. They do. No.
Eve Macdonald: go take advantage of them because they're there for you and they're really fun and they're brilliant experience. So yeah, I think those are the kind of things I'd probably do. I was really sad I never got to do a DNA DNA.
Yas Banks: Yeah. Nice. No, well, I am thinking, I think we got the opportunity to kind of enter those student competitions. I don't think I, I think I worked on a different project at that time in university, but a thousand percent agree, like get involved. Just, yeah. And I really liked the point of being visible, even if that doesn't feel natural to you right now. Like you may be kind of an introvert in that sense, but putting yourself out there on social media, like you say, it's free. LinkedIn may take a little while to kind of grow and kind of get you right in the cross well. But visibility is so key because someone will remember you and you meet someone at an event or networking. And it's a nice little cycle and definitely just get out there and don't be afraid because like we said before, everyone is in the same boat as each other.
Eve Macdonald: friendly. You can apply two rules which is one, cringe is dead. If you think it's cringe it'll become cringe but if you don't care it can never be. And apply a spider rule to networking they're probably more afraid of you than you are of them so both quite you know like you'll be fine.
Yas Banks: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes and I think Cringes Dead is definitely the nice kind of way to sit and just realise and remember everyone that just do it, just go for it, Cringes Dead just do it. We're not taking that off Nike or anything like that, that is our own words, trademark, nope. Well this has been a lovely chat.
Eve Macdonald: Do it.
Yas Banks: I've really enjoyed it, really enjoyed hearing your thoughts and things like that. so all things reality of creative careers and if anyone wants to find anything more about penciling, lead Manchester and yourself, we're working to find that.
Eve Macdonald: So all on my LinkedIn profile, I'm just Eve MacDonald. I've got a very cute picture of me like this. ⁓ Maybe not by the time this is said, ⁓ but I'm just Eve MacDonald. I work at Kiss Branding. You'll find pencil in Leeds and Manchester both in my bio. I also write a sub stack called Brands That Kiss, no I don't, it's called Just A Little Kiss. ⁓ which is where I explore brand and culture and the way that it intersects and moves culture in the UK. But all of those you'll be able to find via my LinkedIn or via the Kiss website, I think. That one I need to check.
Yas Banks: Amazing, amazing, amazing. ⁓ good, we can double check things and pop information everywhere. Well, yeah, thank you very much. This has been Ace.
Eve Macdonald: This has been awesome, it's been so lovely to speak to you, you're so lovely.
Yas Banks: Yes. Thank you.
