Open Comments: S4 Ep.1 - Purpose, Curiosity, Mentorship, and Career Insights with Jon Johnson

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Welcome back to Open Comments with me, Ash.
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Today we're joined by John Johnson, a strategist and advisor who has spent years helping federal programs navigate complex challenges, align priorities, and create meaningful impact.
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Let's dive in, shall we?
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Thanks for joining us today on Open Comments, John.
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Ash, thank you so much for inviting me.
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I really appreciate it.
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Thank you.
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To start, please can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career so far?
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And what experiences have shaped the path that led you to become a strategist and advisor?
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Well, to be frank, I wish I knew.
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Something I reflected on and really haven't arrived at an answer yet.
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It may not be something that you be, but rather just something that you do.
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My path hasn't been a direct one.
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Doing this was not something sought.
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It was really just a matter of serendipity.
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I worked for NASA, and I worked for a specific program manager who's been with the agency for 49 years.
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I've had over 49 jobs in that same period of time, and that's not said without any exaggeration at all.
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But those experiences expose me to a lot of different people, different ideas, different occupations, different concerns, different values.
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Experience itself has been the best education, and I've been fortunate in my life to have had a wealth of those different experiences.
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Some of it may be personality-driven too, like questions that people don't have answers to.
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A response to a tactical question is very straightforward, but asking and trying to answer a strategic question.
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That's to me, that's where all the fun is.
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So most likely when asked those types of questions, my initial response is I don't have any idea.
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And you know, oftentimes that's the most honest response.
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So it's being you know, doing strategy or advising or being a strategist, that's just a sort of a process of finding something out.
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Sometimes that's done independently to inform the direction of a leader.
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That's where the advisory role comes in.
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And sometimes it's done with a group in order to solve a problem.
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And that probably is where I end up putting my uh putting my strategist hat on.
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And really the other part of it, yeah, too, is just sheer luck.
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I met a brilliant NASA program manager in my field uh who said that they wanted me to work with them, and and I started doing it about seven years ago.
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Wasn't it strange, I'm not in a prior to I was in the federal government for about nine years working on similar projects across uh government-wide policy, dealing specifically with uh IT and procurement.
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Um was a Peace Corps volunteer in the past, undergraduate degree in literature and philosophy, you know, all of these things sort of built up to be in the in the position that I've been in the last seven years from serving uh a leader and serving a program for you.
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It wasn't a it's a strange position to be in.
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Yeah, you're when you're a strategist or advisor, you're not in a position to make decisions.
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You're not in a position to make management decisions or leadership decisions or organizational decisions.
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Um you're not in a position as an employee per se.
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Um your job as a strategist and an advisor is to help leadership.
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Uh in my case, it was helping leadership prepare for some transitions that the organization would face.
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And it was really just a role that I ended up growing into.
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And was there a defining moment when you realized strategy was where you could create the most value?
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I think this has as much to do with my leadership as it does with me.
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Um I think my leadership saw this as a needed role and and uh sort of chose me to to fill it.
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Um, to be fair, we were we were peers within the federal government.
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We weren't equals.
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The program that I led is much smaller in comparison to what the program is over here at NASA.
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But um, but they they obviously saw something in me that they that they thought that they needed, and I read a lot, I write a lot.
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Um by an analysis that they don't have.
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I offer options and considerations based on what I see uh outside the the program.
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I think that was one of the main features of why I was asked to come in, is I did have a I had a view on the outside.
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Um and and the program was successful because of the uh it was fairly insular up until a certain point in time, uh focused on what they were doing for their customers.
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They didn't spend a lot of time looking on the outside as they were addressing customer needs.
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And so they thought that they needed that outside view, they probably did.
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Um through the course of time, I sort of grew into the role that I did.
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So all the credit, to be quite honest with you, is is with the people that I've worked with and the program that I've worked with, what they've asked of me over the course of time.
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And looking back, what decisions have the biggest impact on your professional growth?
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Well, the smartest decision I ever made was asking my wife for her hand in marriage.
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The the best decision I ever made was having children.
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I think the luckiest or most impactful decision on me professionally was to work with who I'm working with today.
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I not everybody can say that they've worked with NASA.
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Yeah.
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Um, and the person that I that I work with is is uh the best in her field.
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Um and I've been fortunate to work with her for um seven years now.
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I've learned from the best, I've worked with the best.
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She's absolutely brilliant.
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And so the I suppose the decision to to come over here and uh work for this agency and specifically with this program, uh, without a doubt, was the best decision, best professional decision.
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And how do you help organizations move from ideas to execution?
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From an idea standpoint, it's often supplementary.
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Um they're the ones that have the idea.
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As a strategist, I'm there to help them either see something, identify something.
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Really, it's their ideas.
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It is not me coming up.
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That's the difference between a strategist and a consultant.
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A consultant will come in and tell you exactly what ideas that you've been thinking.
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And well, here are the, you know, at least that's the way that I uh that I separated in my mind.
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Um, but I'm not a consultant.
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I'm not there to push my agenda, I'm not there to push what I know.
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I'm there as a strategist to listen carefully, see what it is leadership is seeking, and then either fill gaps or uh help them achieve the vision that they have, whether it's for their organization or their program.
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Um so the you know, the the vision, the mission, walking them through the the type of things that you would see in a strategic plan.
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Uh strategic planning is also a feature that I've been helping them out for on a basis where I help help them with that not only ideation, but really I have to listen.
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I have to capture that idea, those ideas, I have to bring those ideas back to them, and then I have to find ways for them to communicate those ideas throughout their leadership in the organization.
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And then uh communicating those ideas oftentimes is a two-way street.
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So you want to involve your organization when it comes to the strategy and ultimately help them set that North Star so that the uh tactical and operational features of the organization that you're working with are working to achieve that sort of common goal that that leadership uh whether it's the renewed purpose, that common goal, or the outcome that that leadership seeks within a strategy that they put forth.
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That would hold true whether you're a government program or whether you're a technology company or or whether you're a standards body.
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Same thing would hold true with each.
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And when advising leaders, what's the most common challenge you see?
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There is no one common challenge to uh well okay.
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Most common challenge is people now um it's the most difficult job in any organization.
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Uh balancing what you're looking to do as a organization while also bringing people along with you as you do it is not is is is never is never easy.
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Um people aren't the challenge, obviously, but the challenge ends up communicating communicating in a way that achieves what it is that that that that you're looking to achieve.
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And uh you have to communicate with different people in different ways, and and uh it's a it's a discipline that's as much art as it is science.
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There's no one common thing because no two leaders are in the same position, uh no two organizations are in the same position.
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Everything ends up being contextual in a way, so the common challenge from one new leader may not be uh you know the challenge for another.
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And one theme that comes up frequently among successful leaders is continuous learning.
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How has lifelong learning played a role in your career so far?
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Everything.
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Um back to to you know what makes a strategy or a strategist, it's it's asking questions that don't have answers or having uh questions that you need to investigate in order to find out.
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Um it's that one personality trait that has led me on a path that I never expected to go on, including paths within the open group.
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Um I had no idea about enterprise architecture, about you know, the sort of supply chain standards that are out there, or how they fit in with what the U.S.
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government does within NIST.
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I came into none of that knowing anything and to learn about it, uh, not in a way to master it, but at least uh learn about it enough to be to to be uh cognizant of it and and to understand it.
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Uh so that I would be able to offer suggestions around it.
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Um if you if you had me on video right now, you'd see a library.
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Uh I'm a reader, I'm a constant reader.
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I always have a book around me.
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I'm always, you know, whether it's fiction, non-fiction, it's my number one pastime whenever I'm not working.
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It's the way that I feed my brain.
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That's great.
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And pivoting to mentorship, who are some of the mentors or influential figures who help shape your career and mindset?
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Well, and mindset's different from career.
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Um early on as an undergraduate, it was philosophy, uh specific philosophy professor teaching informal logic that I enjoyed.
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Um moving on into my federal role.
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I've been I was really, really fortunate to fall into uh an organization and with people who uh who fed that insatiability that I had in terms of that and that curiosity of wanting to learn and needing to know.
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Um Connie Thomas was uh one of my early contracting branch chiefs who taught me um a boatload on government contracting.
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Um, my federal peers across the federal government, whether it's at the Department of Homeland Security or Department of Justice, or um then the Department of Defense, but these were all my teachers who were teaching me uh about technology, about security.
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Um certainly Joanne uh Boytek in the NASA program has also been teaching me about uh leadership uh standards, security.
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Um I've had more, I've had more um well but and then there's there's other mentors as well, though.
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So long as you're paying attention to people and uh seeing them for what and who they are and appreciating what it is that you're doing, just about anybody can be a mentor.
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Your boss over there at Steve.
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Every time I attend an open group meeting, um, you know, it's I don't cognizantly pay attention to it, but easier to put on a show and a production and provide information as well as hold people's attention and creating a community and an environment uh that is a that is a community in and of itself beyond the the standards work that the group of you that the group of you do.
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So mentors are actually easy to find if you pay attention.
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And what specific lessons did they teach you?
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Um well, my philosophy professor taught me the lesson of informal logic and logical fallacies.
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Um my colleagues and peers at the General Service Administration were the ones teaching me about um government contracting, uh the tactical nuts and bolts, policy making, policy decision making, uh, interagency collaboration, how to get along with people, uh, how to work with with others in a way that advances their needs rather than advances your own.
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Certainly working with NASA and their program, I've learned more about um business rules, data, structure, uh, leadership, vision.
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I mean, the the the lessons are the lessons are eternal.
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I think with experience, you figure out there's an expression down in Texas in the United States, where you know somebody's all hat and no cattle.
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Um, in other words, they they they uh they talk the talk, but but uh do they actually uh walk the walk?
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Do they back up what it is that they say?
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I think over the course of time you begin to uh more quickly identify what is what is uh real and and what is what is contrived.
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That helps you discern who you should listen to and who you shouldn't.
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Um but and more often than not, is somebody out there saying something that's truthful, something that's honest, something that's sincere, something that is uh something that's genuine.
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If you could pick up on on people who say the truth, then those are certainly people that that uh that are worth listening to.
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Next, you've built a career around helping organizations and leaders succeed.
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What keeps you motivated?
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I have a very simple formula, and it's one that I actually I I fell on it, uh, but it's uh but it's the one that wakes me up every morning looking into the mirror and saying, what am I going to do today?
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Um purpose, goals, outcomes, purpose, goals, outcomes, purpose, goals, outcomes.
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That's really all that matters.
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You know, what am I doing today?
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What am I looking to get done?
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How am I looking to do it?
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And what do I expect the results to be once I once I finish it?
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Or what are the outcomes that I hope to achieve?
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Purpose is the number one thing that keeps that keeps leaders going.
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The number one attribute I see in my leadership.
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Every leader who I meet works purposefully.
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The leader who I work for every single day, this this person, there's no such thing as a nine to five job.
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Uh this person is is so engrossed with what it is that they're doing that uh it's difficult for them to turn their head off in order to do something else.
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He's one of the most purposeful people I know.
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Um same thing holds true with leaders in other areas that I see.
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Yeah.
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It's the purposefulness in which they they get up every morning and sort of uh either solve problems or uh advance what they're looking to advance or attack the day.
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So purpose keeps everyone motivated.
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When you have no purpose, then what are you going to do?
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How do you measure success today compared to earlier in your career?
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The difference between outputs and outcomes.
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Earlier in one's career, you you always want to show what it is that you're doing.
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Um later on in your career, you you you show the effects of what it is that you I think that's yeah, that's the biggest measure of success.
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Again, purpose, goals, outcomes.
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Have you achieved your outcomes sought?
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Okay, that's that's that's the measure of success.
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Did you not achieve the outcome sought, but you ended up discovering something on the way?
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That could be another uh result of approaching things with a purpose, goal, and outcome.
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Nice.
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That's it's the ultimate measure of success in my mind.
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And moving on to one of your current projects, what inspired you to start the exchange podcast?
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I started this actually began, I've been conducting exchange since I've been working inside the federal government.
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An exchange is different than a transaction.
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A transaction oftentimes are two one-way kind of conversations.
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Working inside of government, the most valuable conversations were were the ones where um that had much more interaction than uh than a direction.
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Um people were trying to either figure something out.
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It's really all that matters is the exchange.
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And and sure, the the commercial exchange, but really inside of government, um, the most valuable conversations were the ones between federal agencies.
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Because uh, just like organizations, different agencies find themselves in different conditions, they have different architectures, they have different ways of doing things, they have different missions.
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Um, everything between federal agencies is is different.
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And that's something to be appreciated in a federated environment.
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Um the the structure and the mission of um choose any defense agency is going to be different than, for example, what the you know, what what the function is that Patent and Trade Office is supposed to do as an organization.
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Um I always found that the the platforms of communication between between people end up being the most valuable, more valuable than anything else.
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Information can be exchanged, but if not without conversation, there's no understanding.
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Then it just ends up being information.
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This is the way I operated when I was in government.
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And then I was fortunate enough to work through my program with certain um certain communities inside of government around the supply chain risk management field who operated in the exact same way.
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These were folks in the civilian defense, national security communities who were bringing people together in order to exchange experiences around what they were doing as their own agencies and what they require of the commercial community in order to account for supply chain risk within their particular, uh within their particular organizations.
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And so that's uh so that that concept alone is is uh is is what started the exchange.
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Uh sure I've been sitting down and having excuse me.
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Sure, I've been sitting down and having conversations with people that I've recorded them.
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I I I don't necessarily wanted to call it a podcast yet, uh, in part because I'm still learning how to do it, but uh I do enjoy sitting down with somebody, having a conversation, and and learning as a result of that conversation.
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I just started doing that recently with uh with with people in in the supply chain community and uh within uh national security community and within the federal government.
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Uh and I just enjoy it, Ash.
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I just enjoy having an exchange with somebody again uh where you'll both walk away going.
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Huh, either that was fun, I learned something, I didn't think about that before, I didn't realize this.
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Geez, I want to look into that, I should read this book.
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You have an exchange, you have a conversation that sort of leads into that curiosity of wanting to know more or wanting to learn or wanting to understand.
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I think that's the general premise around the exchange.
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Now, there's a there is a commercial aspect to what it is that we're doing as well.
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Um in the exchange, at least when it comes to the U.S.
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federal government and industry, I come from government.
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What matters more than anything is what agencies are doing in order to satisfy their mission and achieve uh their results, to achieve their outcomes, fulfill their functions within the federal government.
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And uh it's the seat that I always put myself in whenever I'm looking at the marketplace.
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And so I'm very interested in helping uh companies uh meet those needs of the federal government through the various mechanisms of of exchange, whether it's through uh the program that I work for at NASA, um, or whether it's through other programs, whether it's the Department of War, Missile Defense Agency, Army, General Service Administration.
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Um there's a number of mechanisms out there all meant to uh all meant as tools to be used by agencies who are looking to achieve their mission and meet their outcome and objectives.
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And there's different different tools for use depending on different scenarios.
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So I help companies uh satisfy those needs.
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That's great.
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And for professionals looking to grow into leadership, strategy, or advisory roles, what advice would you offer?
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Well, all three of those are three different things that are three different set of skills in my mind.
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:07.839
Um the one the one well, the three different things.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:17.519
So the advice I would give around leadership may be different than the advice I would offer as a strategist or the advice I would offer in terms of advisory, right?
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:25.279
Um the main thing with either, well, especially with advisory, already differentiated that from consulting.
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.599
Um, you're just there to provide options.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:32.319
You're there to offer a view into what it is that you see that they may not see.
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:48.079
Um not only do that, but offer them a solution to to uh or an app whether it's a solution to a problem or approach to a situation that may be new or novel, that they have they haven't seen before.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:49.359
Giving them options.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:51.200
Here's the way that I see it.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.519
You know, uh option number one, option number two, option number three.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:57.359
There are three different ways you can approach it.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.200
If there was an advice that I would give, I'd suggest option number two.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:02.720
These are the reasons why.
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:09.519
However, it's up to the leadership in order to make those decisions because they may be seeing things that that others do not.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.880
Um being a strategist is again a different set of skills.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:29.920
Um and then and then being uh in in leadership, you're again, you're in the decision-making uh you're in the decision, you're in the decision-making business when you're in leadership.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:35.680
Um leadership's a fascinating topic in and of itself.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.559
Very simply, a leader is just somebody who others follow.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:44.640
That can be done in a whole host of ways.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.279
Uh it can be done with an iron fist.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.759
Uh it can be done with a teddy bear.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:59.279
But again, what's the optimal way for uh for that particular leader with that particular organization to advance what it is that they seek?
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:13.839
Those are the uh those are the the the those are the programs that uh that a leader has to come up with that don't come from a textbook, but oftentimes has to be drawn out and brought to them.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:22.480
So um I guess the only piece of advice with all three would be just staying curious and not not believing that you know it all.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.119
Um because once you believe you know it all, then you're not learning anymore.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:35.680
Or the lessons that you do learn when you think that you know it uh know it all end up being hard lessons that you have to make.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:43.440
So keeping an open mind and staying curious, asking questions, investigating answers.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:50.160
I think if you do those things either as a leader or strategist or advisor, you're probably tracking the right way.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:27:06.240
And although you've just mentioned it already, to end this episode, what pause, and although you've mentioned it already, what role does curiosity play in career development as this episode's final pause?
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.359
That's a bit long-winded.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.240
I'm trying to say because we've kind of touched that already, actually.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:17.279
Um okay, right, I've got an idea.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:26.160
Resuming in three, two, one, and to end, how can they become more effective communicators and problem solvers?
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:29.519
And you can also bring in curiosity to this question as well.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.319
Yeah.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:33.359
Yeah.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:39.920
Um again, leadership is more than anything a people business.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:48.240
And one thing I've learned over the course of time is you can communicate in a certain way, but not everybody hears it the same way.
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.240
Um not everybody is in the same situation that you're in.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:28:01.279
Um and so finding different ways to communicate the same idea, uh, communicating the same idea over and over again until people understand.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:17.200
These are all uh these are all these are all the struggles of communication that that that that any leader has to uh has to has to contend with.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.960
Um I heard?
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.119
Am I and do people understand?
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:26.480
Are people on board with with the direction that we that we're going in?
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:37.920
Um that's uh that that's uh it's another feature of leadership that they just don't teach in a textbook.
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:58.640
You have to learn by your mistakes, you have to be reflective enough to and self-aware enough to see how you are being received as well as perceived, and then make those continual adjustments over time in order to it's very different to be a leader of a team of 10 than it is to be a leader of a 10 of 10,000.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:08.319
And so um I think uh communication as you scale up only increases in importance as as you do.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.279
Yeah.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:11.200
Yeah.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:17.039
And you you where does curiosity fit into that?
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:29.440
Well, you know, if people are not uh either hearing you or going into your into into the direction that you know that you hoped that they were going into, you know, a good self-reflective leader will will ask themselves, well, why is that?
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:31.200
I mean, is it something I'm saying?
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:33.039
Is it something that I'm not saying?
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.119
Can I phrase something differently?
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:42.000
A bad leader will say, Oh my god, these, you know, they just uh kick-headed and and and and they just don't get it.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.640
So that self-curiosity, that uh self-reflection, that self-awareness.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:30:00.880
Yes, some of the more difficult things for anyone, whether you're a leader or not, to become um astute at or or or or to challenge yourself with in life.
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:01.279
Yeah.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:07.279
Because the the mirror can be a pretty unforgiving mistress when you know if you look hard at it.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:25.119
And um but the best leaders out there uh are the ones that do take those hard looks in the mirror and uh makes those adjustments and communicates accordingly and yeah, achieves what it is that they seek.
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:40.559
And if listeners remember only one thing, many things from our conversation today about leadership, learning, strategy, or personal growth, what would you want that takeaway or takeaways to be?
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:48.480
Well, I think from a strategy perspective perspective, because we focused on the strategic most.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:31:00.160
Um being strategic, and we didn't we didn't touch upon this, so let's close on it.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.640
Being strategic is about taking action.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:14.160
Um lot of I do meet a lot of people who like to be strategic in terms of strategery, sitting out back, whiteboarding.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:20.319
Um but unless you're taking action, uh all it is is really a paper process.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.559
Um all it is is an I is is an idea.
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.839
Or even worse, it's just an intention.
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:31.200
Um being strategic is about action.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:35.200
It's about synthesizing information, broad information.
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:42.160
Um it's it's a whole mindset of a and participating in sort of a culture of curiosity.
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:49.519
It's really you're gathering experiences to identify uh patterns and connect dots and novel ways.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.000
That's essentially what is a strategist.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:10.720
Looking in the environment, listening to customer supply, partner, employees, understanding their challenges, and then bringing all of that information together in a way that uh can be packaged for either a leadership or an organization to take action.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:15.839
That's the essence of uh strategy, and that's the essence of being strategic.
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.240
So I hope that's the number one takeaway.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:19.119
That's great.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.759
And thank you so much for joining us today on the Open Comments Podcast and sharing your journey, insights, and lessons learned.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.960
And for our listeners out there, be sure to check out the Exchange podcast.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.359
We'll put the link in the description.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.839
And if our listeners would like to learn more about you, John, where can they go?
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.680
LinkedIn always works.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:43.519
Um type in John Johnson.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:44.640
That's an easy way to go.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:51.359
You can go to theexchange.tech if you're interested in what um in what we happen to be doing.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:53.359
Uh this is a startup.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.200
The exchange is a startup.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.720
The exchange the podcast that you mentioned is a startup.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:17.759
So this is all something that we're doing for uh for fun, uh, in order to make an impact in in the marketplace and really to advance uh really to advance what is sought in public administration is is what it comes down to.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:55.519
And I'd be I'd be um negligent though not to uh to thank you for inviting me on, but as importantly, um and more importantly, to thank NASA, to thank the NASA Soup program who I serve, um to thank Joanne Wojtek, who's been the 49-year career federal employee, and um 30-year uh steward of of uh this mechanism that that the federal government has relied on in order to meet their uh IT uh product and service needs.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:02.799
Um just grateful to them and uh very, very grateful to you as well, as well as the Open Group.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.000
You guys taught me a lot.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:05.119
You still are.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:10.159
Thank you, and thanks so much to our listeners for tuning into this episode.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:19.199
We hope you enjoyed it as much as we have, and we look forward to bringing more topics into the fold, just like this one, to you very soon.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.639
Thank you, stay safe and happy listening.