speaker-0: the capital. Lucy Gray was locked in the monkey cage at the zoo or the arena, fighting for her life and at least he knew where she was all the time. Yikes.
speaker-1: Woe is me, someone has purposely tried to give me the worst possible tribute, my life is over. Here's where your grave site is. I'm sorry. Please make this make sense. raging book nerds, 14 years of friendship, and one burning question.
speaker-0: Yeah Katniss Everdeen posted on Reddit. Would she be the arsehole?
speaker-1: Welcome to once upon a red flag this season we're stepping into Panem where every tribute tyrant and mentor gets their day in the Am I the Asshole courtroom? I am Rachel and I'm Rachel
speaker-0: And join us where we read between the red flags and break down the Hunger Games. One questionable decision at a time. Welcome back everybody to part three of episode 17 of Once Upon a Red Flag. We are continuing our discussion about snow. And if you've been watching these as they release rather than binging them back to back like we know Rachel would do, or if you found your way here without watching any other related episodes and don't fancy going backwards just yet, let's have a little recap.
speaker-1: Yeah, so President Snow is not yet president, but he's still talking like he is one, all the same. ⁓ He's basically asking if he's the asshole for treating life and love like a strategic investment. And I guess up to this point we've been focusing a lot on his backstory, like the war he lived through as a child, the things he witnessed in the war. like his dad's friend cannibalizing a dead maid and just like the general toxicity of the people around him. Are you okay, Katie? I'm glad ate this one. just have to bring it up.
speaker-0: I mean, like everyone has been anti-district since the dark days and probably pre dark days to be honest. But no one was big into watching the deaths of children, which fair, right? And even if they were children of like their so-called enemies, like it's not really a nice thing to watch anyone go through. And these people probably saw enough death during the war that they definitely don't want to watch any more of it for like entertainment.
speaker-1: And that's entirely fair. I think I'd be the same. But we know a bunch of high schoolers have literally been tasked with getting people to care about the games. And they've been given like a whole new framework to function within to do this. Now these tributes are going to be interviewed by their mentors that capital citizens know more about them. And they have the chance to be interviewed live on TV right before they go into the arena. So you can really see the... Hunger Games as we know it from the original trilogy, like being born in these moments, you can really see how we're going from something I guess rather unorganized that lot of people don't really care about, like into like the big grand spectacle that it becomes ⁓ in the mid-Georgia as we get towards 74th and 75th Hunger Games. you can see how that we're gonna go from like bare bones to something that earns the capital a crap. ton of money. Like this is the big turning point here. This 10th games is where this all starts to come together. And Kori Elena Snow has had a direct hand in a lot of those changes. And his candidate Lucy Gray becomes a perfect model for what those games could be. is like, or she would have been, I guess, the first victor, the first like big celebrity one. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Today is the day that we really get to dig into Lucy Gray, well that rhymed, and her relationship to and with the Coriolanus Snow. So we spoke last time about how all the tributes are treated as possessions by their mentors, as if their ability of their tribute is linked directly to the mentors' achievements themselves, which is honestly a little bit weird. And a lot of these tributes don't want to cooperate with their mentors no matter what they do, which honestly, fair enough. And if you've been taken away from your home by the capital, treated like animals, denied decent medical access, starved, put on display in a bloody zoo, and then you're being asked to play ball with their systems and questions so some uppity 18 year old can get a decent grade, you're definitely not going to want to cooperate at all, are you?
speaker-1: Like, no. Really no.
speaker-0: I know but Lucy Grey Baird who on paper is like the worst tribute to have, she's obviously the district 12 girl meant to be the smallest, the frailest, the first to die, plays ball with Corio and how much do we think this is down to who she is as a person, like her personality, rather than Corio turning up at the station and getting into the monkey cage at the zoo with her? What's your thought?
speaker-1: I think it's possibly a bit of both. I think she is just that person. But like, you've seen other mentors and how they behaved, right? Can you imagine what would happen if Lucy Gray had been given to Arachne instead? mean, Arachne would still be alive because Lucy Gray as a person is not brutal enough to kill her. But I don't think she would cooperate with the questionnaire or the interview. ⁓ Don't forget, like at one point she says, what's the point of doing the interview? It doesn't get me anything. Like I'm going to go on stage and sing for you like you want me to, Koyo. But like that doesn't achieve anything, right? So if she had someone like her actor who wasn't treating her like a human being, she would just be like, Saja, personally as well, think. I think it's a combination of her personality. and Corio kind of like brings them together. But I also wonder like what would Corio have done if like Lucy Gray didn't have such dramatic weeping? What if she wasn't that person? So like what if she hadn't put the snake down Mayfair's dress? got slapped and then like burst into song on stage. It's a very dramatic griefing and that's what makes choreo snap. Yeah, that's what makes him snap out of his like, woe is me, someone has purposely tried to like give me the worst possible tribute my life is over, like attitude that he starts off with. What would have happened if she hadn't done any of that? If he had got another girl from District 12 and was reaped instead, would we end up where we are at the end of this book if it wasn't these two specifically?
speaker-0: We a lot in the last episode about Corio's actions in the monkey cage at the zoo, so we won't repeat ourselves with that. We won't bore anyone. But this is the start of Lucy Gray's relationship with Corio, since he is the only one that takes the initiative and I guess it earns him some kind of respect. And he starts the trend of the mentors then visiting their tributes and trying to drum up some good press for them, even when the cameras aren't there actively broadcasting interviews to the rest of the capital. There are still capital citizens there to watch and interact with the tributes like they're animals in the zoo. But at least they're offering them food, right? They're getting fed. yeah, it becomes normal for a while before acne's death. to find tons of people around the Tribute's cage. And even then Snow still finds a way to get into the zoo to visit her when it isn't technically allowed. And there is an instance of Corio doing this that really gives me like the ick. Snow goes to visit Lucy Grey the day after Arachne's throat is slit. And he starts to say how much Lucy Grey means to him and how basically amazing she is. and all I can think of while he's done this is just like how this is all all lies. He might not be trying to get into her pants, fair enough, but he's trying to use her for something like that's for sure like it's not genuine it's not like from a good place and let's be honest we all know we all know someone like that there's always one.
speaker-1: Yeah, there's usually quite a few that you meet throughout your life who they say stuff for the things that they want. And everywhere you turn you will sort of go, well, how much of what you're telling me is true right now? How much of what you're telling me is because you want something. And this question of how much he lies to her, how much does he care about her? like, why does he care about her? Like, that's the question that I hope we'll be able to answer by the end of this episode, because I go... backwards and forwards, like, I don't think I ever believe he's head over heels in love with her. That's never something that think that Kariyo is even capable of with anyone. And thankfully, I also don't really believe that Lucy Gray feels that way about him either. I don't think she's head over heels for him. ⁓ But with Snow, I kind of have this sliding scale from like, is he only interested in her for what she can give him to like... Is he actually attracted to her? Not in love with her, but attracted to her and then he's trying to justify his attraction. And I think maybe it changes up and down depending on the day. Like I think he is that fickle. And then the reason that we have such trouble figuring out what their relationship is, is because it does change day to day, hour to hour, depending on what he wants and needs and how he justifies it to himself. But like, I'm hoping that we can have like a definitive answer. and dig through all of this, like to pinpoint the root of it, because this is something that plagues me as I read the book where you go, okay, maybe he is human. And then you go, okay, no, no, that's definitely not human. Something's going on here.
speaker-0: He obviously, he talks to her and he says some sweet stuff and tells her about himself and even like apologises to her that she's in the games and it seems to kind of sway her opinion of him because she says things to him like she doesn't believe he's, you know, he is there with her for grades and glory and I think she says something like he's a rare bird. So is he actively wooing her to get her on her side? Or is this a side effect of what he was trying to achieve? That's what I can't figure out.
speaker-1: Yeah, and he does say something as well though, like maybe the reason that he finds her so easy to tell things to is because whatever he tells her, that will vanish into the arena. And I guess if you really think about it, who can Koryo have an honest conversation with? He doesn't really have anyone in his life currently, before the arena, before the mentorship, apart from Tigress and his grandmom. And they keep a lot of things from his grandmother, because they don't want to stress her out and worry her about everything that's going on. So we can't really have friends who truly know him, because to get close to someone, that means he would risk all those lies that we talked about and that carefully built house of cards coming down around him, this carefully crafted facade he has, that he still has money and status. I sort of think, well, part of his attraction to Lucy Gray could be the fact that he actually now can get close to someone who isn't directly his family, because it can never get out with her, right? No matter what he tells her, he doesn't need to trust her in that way, because she doesn't have a status that would threaten him. Like she is not in society in the same way every single other person in his life is. And the comment said that. he is expecting her to die in the arena anyway. anything that he tells her will go to the grave with her within a matter of weeks. And part of me wonders then if he follows her to 12 because of that, both sides of it. Like she's the only one who can fully understand him, but she's also the only one who has information about him that could hurt him even further.
speaker-0: I think you are right. Like you think she's going to die in the arena, right? She's the female tribute from District 12. And it's not until after the arena is bombed on that arena tour that he thinks about her in a different way. I know we're going to talk more about this arena tour and the aftermath of the bombing in a later episode, namely in the Dr. Ghaul episode, but it's enough right now to simply remember that they televised the tributes touring the arena with their mentors prior to the game starting. the arena where these tributes are going to fight to their death. As if it wasn't scary enough, they get like a run through. And this is crazy.
speaker-1: Here's where your grave site is
speaker-0: I know and people definitely will be talking about this like I said during the Dr. Gould episode but some unknown rebels supposedly bomb this arena though no one knows when they laid this trap or like how or who these rebels are and like multiple tributes and mentors die because of this and some tributes obviously escape like Marcus and a lot of these tributes who aren't killed are then seriously injured from this event. and while mentors are assured that their tributes will be taken care of, they're treated by a vet, not even by a doctor. And when the vet said they actually needed access to decent human medicine, it was rejected. Like what the hell? So these are the weakest tributes they have probably ever had. They have been fed this time, sure, but like no other year has had tributes with smoke inhalation, burns covering the bodies, et cetera. Like it's just horrific when you think about it. some die after that arena getting bombed but before the games themselves so it's like this is just horrific it's like you've gone to the capital to be put into the Hunger Games to die but no surprise surprise you don't actually have a chance to live by fighting you're just gonna get blown up prior to the games. I guess if you were the weakest of the weakest that might be silver lining I don't know but And some also run off, like I said, they're attempted to run off and get shut down by the peacekeepers. So it's just, it's a complete shambles. Even as I'm talking about it, I'm like, this is just a complete shambles and really badly organized.
speaker-1: gonna jump in and sort of hint at the Dr. Gwaal episode a little bit just to like help everyone's like, excitement for it. Because I do think it is supposedly Rebels who bomb and I will be going off about who I think actually set that trap. Because one of the things they say as well is they don't know when they set that trap. Because I think Snow says something like they could be pressure-centered. pressure sensors, so like they were on timers for when they went through the gates in the first place. So it's like anyone could have put those bombs in place from within the capital between the end of the last game to the start of the first games, thinking that they would like pull these like tributes out and then damage the arena and stuff. But I'm not entirely buying that. It seems a bit sus right? Stick around for that one.
speaker-0: Yeah, I guess we'll discuss that more than. So does that really make.
speaker-1: Doesn't does it? So you think hang on a bit who's tried to kill these guys now? Yeah
speaker-0: So anyway, I can't go off on that tangent right now. all around Lucy Gray, these tributes are looking battered and so, so unwell. And obviously Lucy Gray's odds are looking a bit better now. Like she literally tells Corio that she thinks maybe she could actually win now. And he admits to himself that up to this point, he hasn't really tried to make her a winner. So he was just kind of hoping he could of like big her up. And then this image he has built up for her will kind of rub off on him now and make him look good. And this is after he's been getting closer to her, telling her all these sweet nothings. And she probably, she probably thinks he loves her and Snow in a weird twisted way can probably convince himself that's what love is. And he still hasn't been working to keep her alive, just working to give himself credit for the scholarship.
speaker-1: Yeah. And then like, it's after this arena thing that he literally says that he's happy that her hands have healed from the burns they got in the arena. But it's not so that she could defend herself, but it's because that means that she could play the guitar they borrow from Pluribus while she sings like the televised interview to draw more attention for him, not for her, attention for him. Like he does have the grace to admit to himself that he should have been trying to save her. to help her be a victor, even if her odds were awful. Especially since he claimed that she mattered to him in the zoo and that obviously makes it so much worse. He's just like, yeah, she can die, but at least then her hands are healed so she can play a guitar, not that she can defend herself and fight. And as I'm saying this, I'm sort of going, what other victor do we know had his hands injured right before he went to the arena? Weird little parallel there.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But then at least I realise he's messed up a little bit here. Like, it's not great. His actions aren't matching up to his words. Unfortunately though, he does not take the opportunity to learn from this and change his actions and be a better person. Because if he had, we wouldn't be here. He just doesn't have it in him. Let's be honest. He can't change. He is who he is. He is set. He doesn't want to change. And this is all... after she has saved his life. In that arena bombing, he gets pinned by a falling beam and that beam is on fire. Like she chose rather than make a run for it because he does say that like he saw her like turn to where all the other like, to be fair they did get like gunned down, like the none of the guys who escaped actually survived. But there was that opportunity for her to try and make a run for it and she doesn't. She... chooses instead to save his life, right? She literally like lifts a burning beam off him. He's seconds away from catching on fire himself and burning to death. She has braved this beam, this burning like heavy piece of wood to lift it entirely off his body on her own and then grabs hold of him and helps him limp away to sift.
speaker-0: There's definitely a joke in there about another District 12 girl tribute almost being on fire, but we'll save that for another time.
speaker-1: you couple that with the the pizza and the hands and everything you sort of just go well hang on a minute there's some very clever little plotter here done by Suzanne Collins isn't there? I needed that I needed that joke because I'm about to get angry again. ⁓ So we're gonna get into Snow's reaction now to being rescued right? So like he does say to a couple people that she did save his life. And there was another girl, is it Lysa Strata who's saved by Jessup as well? goes around telling people that like he saved her life, he like covered her body with his own to like prevent her from getting injured as well. And that's like, I think she gets sort of a negative reaction from that. People saying, well, you're making him out to more human than he is kind of stuff. And so he could have like, keep shtum a little bit more on how Lucy Gray saved him. And Snowy's reaction is to be concerned about what Capitol TV caught on camera because the whole idea of this arena tour was to be caught on camera, the Mentals and the Tributes going around touring. So that means Capitol TV caught the attack on camera as well. so he's happy when he says like, on TV, all the stuff that they show is obscured by smoke. No one can really like see on TV what happened. But he wants to know if any footage exists of him being rescued by Lucy Gray, because at one point apparently he's clinging to her skirt, scared and injured, like waiting for medical treatment to arrive. And my honest reaction to this is, my God, like God forbid his life be saved by a girl from District 12 and God forbid he be scared that he almost died. Like... That just makes you human, dude. Anyone else in that situation who has also lived through the capital being bombed in your childhood, that will bring back some PTSD. That is going to bring back some actual human feelings. God forbid anyone see that you have those.
speaker-0: I mean, he is so obsessed with image. We already know this, like, you his image, Lucy Gray's image, and even the consequences of the images he has crafted. Like, he's the one who tells her to perform for a televised interview the night before she goes into the games, and then gets all jealous about her song and the reaction people have to her. Like, she's obviously singing about her ex-boyfriend in a song she wrote herself, which is a brilliant achievement. And all he can say is that she is his girl. and now everyone in the capital has heard her sing about another guy and that has undermined him and basically humiliated him. What is his possessiveness? She belongs to him? Like, but only because she was assigned to him during the reaping. Like, she's singing about a life before him, which she is fully entitled to have and since she didn't just spontaneously come into being the second he entered into her life, like, don't forget... like about the girl he was falling around with in the back alley on on Adair, like he's being so hypocritical because even though he hasn't had a girlfriend before now he still has a history just like Lucy Gray does and then he's also said he barely even knows the girl that he has a history with and doesn't necessarily want her then he like but when it comes to Lucy Gray like he doesn't want anyone else to have her. but also for no one else to have had a past with her or have had to have her in the past. It gets really confusing. is this reminding you of anyone else we've heard about in this series? A guy likes a girl but also doesn't know if he really does like her or want her for the right reasons and would scarred her really easily in the end when he wants someone else. Remind you of anybody.
speaker-1: gonna take that Gail reference one step further. Because I want us to remember how everyone thought that Gail and Katniss would eventually get together and how she acted like he took personal offense like every time she told him that she couldn't think about anything romantic because there's too much other stuff going on like war and evil president attacking her, threatening her personally, fighting for her life, know, things like that. And then obviously Gayl Axe is a targeted attack every time she defers that conversation for later. ⁓ Every time she doesn't choose him right at that second. ⁓ Cori had something similar when he says that Lucy Gray betrays him. She's humiliated him by singing about somebody else. You know what the biggest takeaway is from this? Cori Leanna Snow could never date Taylor Swift.
speaker-0: my god. mean she's got a lot of content. mean, he gets so... I know. Whole album. Whole album. He cares more about this in the moment than he does about the success he had achieved for Lucy Gray and then what success that would then reflect on himself. Like he has put her on this stage, he has got her this like a filly in the race, his dog in the fight as he refers to her.
speaker-1: I'm ready.
speaker-0: and turned her into a success and he sees that as his achievement not something she was capable of all along on her own. Like he did that, he made her great, he's been out to earn credit for this scholarship from the very beginning and now he's achieved that he can't even fully enjoy it.
speaker-1: No, he really can't. And this is where we get into like there being some genuine emotion going on now, I guess, because whether it's misguided or misplaced, like Lucy Gray definitely holds some sway over his feelings to get him to this point. Like whether it's once again like Gail and someone else is like coveting his shiny new toy, or like whether it is just like taking physical attraction to mean something more than it does, is also a possibility. I want to talk about this back and forth that he does to try and justify his feelings for someone quote unquote lesser than himself because like the one thing he can decide on is that she is not capital, but she's Corvée, she's not district either. But she is district because even she admits like when they reinforce district lines after the dark days, the Corvée weren't allowed to travel. where they used to, they couldn't be like a nomadic troop anymore. ⁓ They just were rounded up into District 12. So now she is district, even if she wasn't before, but she's not capital. And therefore, even though she is human, she isn't human. She's like, and he says something less than, like a second class citizen. He goes as far as to use the word bestial, which, and he continues to say, and I quote, He says something like, perhaps, but not evolved. Part of a shapeless mass of unfortunate barbaric creatures that hovered on the periphery of his consciousness. Surely, if there had ever been an exception to the rule, it was Lucy Graybeard. And that's an if. If there's an exception to the rule, he is not saying at all that she is the exception to the rule. There isn't an exception. But then...
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: He also goes on to say that if you think about it, since they're not district, the Corvia are almost capital because she seems really at home here and really understands how to work the crowd. She fits in and that's the line he uses with Lucky Flickerman, the way he spins her on live TV to win sponsors for Lucy Gray. is she capital? Is she Corvia? Is she district? Is she not district? Is she the same as he is? Can he actually love her if she's less than him? this stuff. And he never fully buys this idea that she is equal to him.
speaker-0: He also can't decide what to refer to Lucy Gray as, like is she his girlfriend, his sweetheart and says it's only really a crush but when she kisses him before she goes into the games he kisses her back and goes in for another kiss. Like he says the kiss even makes his head spin but why? Is it like that attraction or does she represent to him his saving grace? He got the worst candidate on paper, the District 12 girl as we've discussed. He went into this mentorship program wanting to impress the Academy. Hugh obviously gives out a university scholarship every single year and he needs to win that if he has any hope of going to university when he graduates. And when he got the District 12 girl, the game should have been over for him. He should have just like automatically lost. But he was lucky instead. He got Lucy Gray by some sort of like divine intervention. He has been handed his saving grace because I don't think either of us believe he could have gotten as far as he did with another tribute instead. Lucy Grey is his final chance to get this scholarship and that would keep his foot in the door with high society meaning that he still might be able to raise his family back to glory. Is that what T is in love with? Not the girl but the opportunity she represents.
speaker-1: the airtime she brings him. the bigger the personality she has, the more people sponsor her, the longer she lasts in the games. Like, she doesn't just give him future potential, she actually brings him more renown, like even more food. Like, she helps him survive. Like, so it's like the mentors who are staying in the hall at the Academy, like they're watching the action happen live in the arena while the tributes are in there. and they have their own communicuffs and they're using that to like, order these drones to send in food. They're waiting to see like who lives, who dies, like if their tribute pops their head out so that they can give them refreshments, they can send in water, they can make sure that they aren't starving in there. But while the tributes are in there, the mentors are in the academy, the mentors are being fed. They still don't get breakfast, but the longer it goes into the evenings, they're still getting lunch and dinner. Obviously, Koryo sees this as another reason for wanting Lucy Gray to stay alive. Because he says he's the talent now, and he gets a real dinner, and the fact that he gets these perks makes him feel important. Which is all they want to really, isn't it? feel important.
speaker-0: Yeah and like if we're talking about things he does in the games themselves we need to talk about Jessup. We need to talk about Jessup. He comes running after Lucy Gray out of the tunnels trying to attack her and obviously just a reminder Jessup is the male tribute from District 12 with Lucy Gray and she's getting as far away from him as possible because he's got rabies. The poor guy got sent to the Capitol So being in the Hunger Games gets to the zoo pen gets bitten by what is it possum in the end I think they figure out it is not a rat.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's something like a possum or a raccoon or something. It's a little trash panda.
speaker-0: I also just, I want to just like, I want to deviate just for a second to the fact that when they figure out that it was the Possums that a bit him, the Capitol reporter and Flickerman, can't remember which iteration of Flickerman this is because so many of them.
speaker-1: There's there's Lucky Flickerman, is it Lucky Flickerman? And there's Lepidus Monsay, who's the one who's like doing like live interviews and then Lucky is doing like the main presenter thing.
speaker-0: this bit gets me every time once they confirm that he obviously has rabies and it was a possum. The guy who does the interviews and has been at the zoo for the Capitol TV interviews, literally goes, ⁓ my god, I was at the zoo and someone has to tell him like, know, can't just catch rabies from being around one. He's like, yeah, but one of those weird possum creatures was like touching my equipment. And it's so tone deaf because like dude, this guy just on TV.
speaker-1: That's how we all
speaker-0: from rabies and falling down and cracking his head in and you're stood there worried about a possum touching your camera equipment. Anyway, it's just so, it's just so dope.
speaker-1: And what's so bad as well with it being Jessup is that up to this point Jessup and Lucy Gray were allies. Jessup's a big guy. was looking after Lucy Gray and they were a team together. And then for him to actually turn on Lucy Gray because of the rabies and how it's impacting him, it's just so sad.
speaker-0: Yeah. And obviously for everyone ⁓ watching and mentors, kind of comes out of nowhere. Like she's getting as far away from him as possible because he's got rabies and seeing that Jessip goes mad at the sight of the bottles of water flying towards him with the drone. Corio doesn't think twice about sending massive amounts of water towards Lucy Gray and Jessip to drive him away from her. I do want to say that he does like, he seems to be more concerned about Lestrata and her emotion about her tribute than he does about Jessup, if that makes sense. So he does have some reservations about doing it for his fellow mentor, but he doesn't really have any reservations doing it about the lives of the person that he is definitely about to kill.
speaker-1: for Joseph. Yeah.
speaker-0: And Lestrata literally steps up and know, realizes a tribute can't win because you know, he's rabid. She uses her money to carry out Corio's plan. This ultimately leads to Death's death. He falls down, he cracks his head open. He's driven so mad by the war so that he falls to his death. Neither of them, Lestrata or Snow, have really valued the human life in front of him. And we know, you know, Lestrata does get upset. He kind of, you know, she was like, ⁓ he was a nice guy. But we know if Lestrata had offered to carry this plan. out, Snow probably would done it anyway, but he was out of the game so he might as well help, she was out of the game, as in Jessup was out of the game, so she might as well, Sharta, Snow win. I know there's lots of moving parts.
speaker-1: It's confusing because the mentors are winning, they're winning at the same time their tributes are winning. And they're losing at the same time they're losing. So you've got two people who are losing, one of them's losing their lives and one of them's losing like an inter scholar competition or something. It's just two different levels that really don't match up.
speaker-0: It's like the levels are losing ⁓ fight to the deaf gladiator competition annual life and losing spelling bee. Yeah. They don't really.
speaker-1: Pretty much. ⁓
speaker-0: It's so bad.
speaker-1: ⁓ But like, that is all his manners, isn't it? They just want to win no matter what they want, it's all tactics. It's probably the only, I guess, allowable example of Koryo employing tactics. Because he also employs some other things that are less allowable that I'm sure we'll be discussing again later on. But the tactics I'm talking about here for context are the ones that give him grounds for expulsion. the first infraction. is to start smuggling food into the arena with Lucy Gray, like specifically food from the Academy. like everyone is aware that every mentor has smuggled in food for their tribute, but kind of has the goal to smuggle in food that he did not even pay for. you know, that's his first strike as far as the Academy is concerned. Strike two is then when he gives Lucy Gray his mother's compact. Which like, on the surface, it seems like a lovely token, because he treasures this compact. It seems like, you know, maybe he does actually care for her, because one of the remaining mementos that he has of his dead mother. But then he suggests that maybe she should fill it with rat poison from the zoo. And then take that into the arena as another weapon. ⁓ Which you know, not, people aren't going to be on board with that one. And then finally he realizes that Dr. Gorm. plans to release the snake mutts in the arena. Or at least he realizes there was a chance that she might do this because she is sick and twisted. ⁓ So like, he on impulse then drops that handkerchief into the snake mutt enclosure. It smells like Lucy Gray, she's had hold of it, she's given it him back. So these mutts only attack things that don't remind them of comfort. So now they're associated in Lucy Gray's scent with their home. which obviously protects her. And even Snorrimself doesn't know exactly why he has done this, whether he's protecting Lucy Gray because he wants her to survive, like herself, or whether he just wants her to win because that then is his own win. And if it's like the latter, it isn't really a noble cause. Like then he actually cheated to win. He's not now trying to save her life. He is just trying to win. monetary gain a scholarship, either the academies or the one that the plinths put up. And I think we both know why Snow did it. I think we know that it's not about Lucy Gray's life, is it?
speaker-0: No, no, it's never about other people. For him, you know, relationship with his cousin going downhill and that was like the closest person that he really had as a friend and that went bad. So no, it's not about other people. This is The Snow Show. So obviously when Snow gets caught out for cheating, he gets handed a punishment and his punishment is to sign up for the Peacekeepers
speaker-1: always a vibe.
speaker-0: immediately. He gets shipped out to District 12 as he requests with the intention of meeting up with Lucy Gray there but he doesn't care enough to actually ask about her. He's too worried about his reputation. Luckily no one in 12 really has a TV or even really follows The Hunger Games so no one recognises him. Remember this is before watching The Hunger Games is actually mandatory in the districts. So No one puts two and two together about this new recruit from the Capitol being from a high-powered family and that's how Corio wants it to stay. So, protecting this information is more important than finding Lucy Gray for him and he finally hears about the lead singer of a band being back from the Capitol and they are going to be performing on Saturday night. So, off he goes and he stays in the shadows and just watches her until the end of performance. And he sees her interacting with the other peacekeepers, turning on the same charm she has been doing to win her favour in the capital during the Hunger Games. And that jealousy rears its ugly head as he wonders how friendly can she be? So he basically slutsh-s-s-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut
speaker-1: is doing super well. And his grandmother has already made a similar comment in the capital as well. I think she said something like, well, I he also said to me like, she's not really a district girl. Like meaning like she's not really district. And his grandmother responds by affirming that she's indeed district and then says, trust me, that one hasn't been a girl in a long time. And I would love to say that this is his grandmother who was planting this idea in his head from that comment. I would love to say that wondering how friendly she can be and basically slouch aiming her in his own head. I'd love to say that's like toxic family traits, like an idea that's been passed down generations. ⁓ But last time, in the last episode, we spoke about him thinking Tigress had sold her body to pay for food for them to eat as well. This is then without bringing up the fact that this topic of discussion is brought up between Cario and Lucy Gray as well. Lucy Gray says that she's never had to do it to feed the rest of the Corvi, including her younger sister Maud Ivory, but she would do it. And I think that she says she would do anything to put food on the table specifically for Maud Ivory. And this is the fact that like in hard times, Corio accuses both women of this with such distaste in his mouth. Like he is not recognizing any of the sacrifice that would mean for them personally. in such dire straits, like there may not be another option. Like that is the world that we are talking about here. But then this judgment from him comes from the idea, even like this simple idea. that they could have made such a choice. That even though they haven't done it, they would consider it because that is obviously, unfortunately, a tool that women have at their disposal if they are really, really struggling. And what are we talking about here if we're not talking about starvation in districts, starvation in the capital. For God's sake, the guy watched his friend eat a maid, a dead maid, like, and yet you seem to judge that less harshly than sex work? I'm sorry. Please make this make sense.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think it comes back to this idea of procession again. know, Tigress is his family, his cousin, and Lucy Gray is his girl and she shouldn't be shared with anyone in the past, present or future for any reason. And he's even happy that Lucy Gray is, you know, beautiful when she's singing because she's happy and that happiness shines out of her. but it's in a way that's not just that he can see but anyone and that could be a problem for him. And then it feels like he manipulates her into being with him. Like he makes himself known to her at the end of a set on the first night and kisses her and he says she believes in fate and him being in a district with her like would imply that and that would guarantee that she would be loyal to him. if they are meant to be together because it is fated. And then he says, no one turned his head in the Capitol anyway. And he doubted anyone else in District 12 could possibly be worth his attention anyway. And then as their relationship continues, he pretty much says he preferred it when she was in the Capitol with him, not for any of the benefits of living in the Capitol over District 12 or the fact that he wouldn't have fallen from grace, but then in the Capitol. Lucy Gray was locked in the monkey cage at the zoo or the arena fighting for her life and at least he knew where she was all the time. Yikes. Yikes. That's so bad. It's so so bad.
speaker-1: There are no words for this. are zero words. is his possession. She is his star. In his mind, like he made her the star she was in the capital. So that's all the value that she has and she is his because he made it. That's it. Really, that is all there is. She is like the best thing he's got now because it's something, because she is something that is his that he made and he's going to keep her because that's the one achievement that he's got.
speaker-0: Wow, is going to keep her until something better comes along at least because he only agrees to run away with Lucy Grey near the end of the book because he's scared that his time is running out and soon everyone will figure out that he is the one who killed the mayor's daughter. The reason Lucy Grey even wants to run away is because the mayor is convinced she is the one behind his daughter's death and he is basically harassing her. She's scared that the mayor will kill her and so they're going to run away to the north where there are rumours there is a settlement of people who are off the capital's radar. These are obviously rumours of District 13, which is honestly so ironic. ⁓ Corio doesn't really believe this settlement exists. He says the capital controls the known world and he's embarrassed for anyone who believes these people truly exist. and if they did exist he imagines them to be cavemen, barely human, even lower than the districts. He is willing to run away with her because he expects he will die soon too and be hung for murder. The guns that were used in the killing of Mayfair Lip and Billy Tote haven't been found yet and he is just waiting for the other shoe to drop. He wants to get out of there and he wants to get out of there now. Like he doesn't hear about Lucy's grey wanting to go. and make the choice to go with her, to look after her and keep her safe like a normal person and lover would do, he agrees to go to protect himself from being found out for murder. We will be discussing more about Lucy Gray's fate in the next episode but they get as far as the cabin before he finds the guns and realises he can basically destroy the evidence and you know by this point He has found out that he has been accepted onto the accelerated course after passing the office's test with flying colours and he can ship out the District 2 and quote unquote make something of himself. So he might even be able to reach the goals he planned on with the peacekeepers rather than the university approach he was originally set on. He has a second chance and he would rather take that. Meanwhile, Lucy Gray has figured out that Snow is responsible for Sir Janus's death, which we will be talking more about in the next episode, and this means she has realised exactly who Corio is when he drops his good guy performance. She knows he is responsible for the Mayor's daughter's death, having witnessed it, and he realises that she needs silencing if he can truly tie up all the loose ends and move forward. So... Naturally, he chases after her with loaded gun and starts shooting in all directions. course. Of course. Naturally. I know. And when he is satisfied that he's either shot her or made her so scared that she won't ever return to District 12 and will continue on her plan to run away on her own, he stinks the guns in the lake, covers his tracks and just goes on with his life like nothing ever.
speaker-1: It's the only choice.
speaker-0: happened in this moment never existed. So he goes back to the base, he ships out for what he believes his district to, but ends up being in the capital, where it turns out that he can just resume the life he had before the Hunger Games even happened. With one notable difference, he's pretty much got everything he ever wanted. Like, was that easy? Like, what the hell? Like, I really feel... Damn sorry for whatever woman Snow manages to trick into marrying him and having kids with him later in life because we know he does, we know he has a granddaughter when it's the 75th Hunger Games. Half the time with Lucy Gray, Snow has been like a predator circling its prey and Lucy Gray even feels like a victim who has fallen in love with their kidnapper, basically Stockholm syndrome from him being her mentor for the Hunger Games. This is not a healthy relationship. So I have to have to mention it. I have to ask people out there, why the hell were there so many snow edits after this film came out? Why were we romanticizing President Snow? I get the actor was hot, that no, no, no, stop it. No, red flag, not the relationship you want. This is not healthy guys. Like, where are we watching different films? Did no one read these books? These are the questions I'm concerned for people's welfare.
speaker-1: Some women love a bad boy, what can I say?
speaker-0: Yeah, but not a terrorist.
speaker-1: I mean, you been on Kindle Unlimited lately? Have you been on?
speaker-0: I don't have a kindle.
speaker-1: Don't do it. ⁓ There are some fantastic books on there. However, the book talk community of dark romance, some of them I've read aren't too bad. Some of them are kind of like, okay, well, he's morally gray and so she, so it's fine. ⁓ There's been a couple where you sort of go, okay, maybe not. ⁓ you know what? I'm going to call my friend out here. I haven't read Haunting Adeline yet. Haunting Adeline, Haunting Adeline, but there's some dismemberment that goes on. ⁓ that's possibly a spoiler. I don't know. There's, keep being told that one of her first books, I'm looking at you, you know, you know, I'm looking at right now. I know you're watching. One of her first books was Stalker Romance. And I do not think the girl had it in her. ⁓ I haven't read it yet. ⁓ if, if there's no way it's concerned you. maybe steer clear of the dark romance genre because it gets so much worse than what you're thinking of right now. So much worse, So moving on from that quickly before we go too deep into let's dismember someone. Is now a good time to raise the theory? Do you need to it to a cover from that conversation?
speaker-0: Hey, interesting. No, I'm fine. Keep going. I'll recover while you talk.
speaker-1: It's now a good time to raise a theory that we see a lot and a theory that I have previously said I did not buy. yet rereading this book has convinced me that this theory is in fact canon. ⁓ you can now not convince me otherwise. Because we never see Lucy Gray's body. That never happens. Even when people write to Snorm and tell him about the disappearance of Lucy Gray. No one ever finds a body. She does not return back to District 12. And the routes they took, like the location where her body would be, is known to her Corvier family. Like they would have found her if she was there. So, did Lucy Gray, in fact, continue her plan to run away and end up in District 13 and marry some guy there and give birth to President Alma Coyne?
speaker-0: But this is not my theory, like ages ago.
speaker-1: I was like, don't buy it. I'm not sure. I'm not convinced. And now everywhere the book and I'm like, okay, yeah, you want something because I going, going by the, the Covey naming conventions, right? It's the name from a ballad and the color, right? Well, we never find out if Alma coin ever has a middle name. However, there is apparently a satirical ballad called Alma. I googled, I googled, there is a ballad called Alma. ⁓ And so like her first name would fit Corbyn conventions. But you could also probably argue that most first names would be the subject to some sort of song at some point in history. So really any name that she could ever have been given could have been part of a ballad. ⁓ But it might go some way to explaining why President Coyne. was so against not just the capital, but also the districts as well. Because you'd have, if Lucy Gray gave her the full story of what happened with President Snow when he was the president, you'd always have to talk about the history that she had with the district itself and how the mayor was so convinced that his daughter could do no wrong, that butter couldn't melt and then he rigged the reaping. for Lucy Gray and all that kind of stuff. You can kind of see then how A, she's neither district nor capital leaning when it comes to the war, but also why she seems to be so against both and why she wants to rule in her way. But like that's a theory that you were convinced of. And now I think I'm on your side. think.
speaker-0: I only took you like four months.
speaker-1: I think I did say I had to reread the book again. had to reread the book runs but I'm like, is she dead? Is she not? I'm like, okay, yeah, she's not dead. Definitely not dead. ⁓ do want us to end this episode though with a question that I think we can probably answer of Snow's Am I the asshole post already? So is he the asshole for treating love like a strategic investment? Have we come to a conclusion about how he truly felt about Lucy Gray and how Lucy Gray truly felt about him? Was it all a performance? And I know you mentioned that whoever he married, like you feel sorry for whoever he marries and has kids with. It's also worth noting for this question that
speaker-0: ⁓ huh. Ike.
speaker-1: He actually says he doesn't like the way that love made him feel, which is basically out of control. And so despite himself like getting on okay with people like Lysistrata and Clemencia, he says Livia Cardiu, the worst and most annoying and toxic female student we have met at the academy at all, would be the best choice for him because he does hate her. ⁓ So therefore he could never love her and he could never be out of control. So like if he went down that path, I do think he would also suffer some, not just her. But that sort of really gives you the idea of what he thinks about love in general. is he the asshole? Lucy Grey and his opinions on love.
speaker-0: think he never truly loves Lucy Gray, just loved the way that Lucy Gray made him look good and he kind of fell in love with that and then yeah, kind of went a bit out of hand. I think Lucy Gray might have loved him, which then makes that situation really awkward. And then yeah, well, his whole treatment of this whole situation, we know he's an asshole. It kind of goes without saying. with half of our Amelie Arsell question answered that only really leaves one part left. He's asking us whether he is treating life like a strategic investment. So next time let's talk more about the lives he actually takes. It's a very steep decline into hell for Corio so I think we might be in for a heavy episode next time.
speaker-1: I think there are only gonna be heavy episodes from here on out, think, to be honest. The Hunger Games prequel books themselves are not known for being lighthearted. ⁓ You have been warned. Please have something lighthearted queued up for after our episodes because I think you might be needing a palate cleanser.
speaker-0: Yeah, so thanks so much guys. Join us next time for part four of the snow episode for songbirds of Ballads of Songbirds and Snakes. ⁓ And that'll be the last one for this snow before we get on to Ser Janus and Gull. So we'll kind of wrap it up with a nice little bow in the fourth part next time. So join us next week guys. Thanks so much for tuning in again. We really appreciate you. comment your thoughts, we want to know them, I love reading them, I know you do too Rachel, and kind of like answering them, it's always fun.
speaker-1: is honestly the best part of my dear. stick them all below. What do you think happened to Lucy Gray? Is she not? Did she make it to 13 but she's not Coyne's mother? That would be an interesting take. If anyone thinks that specifically, let me know why. yeah. Join us next time guys. Bye.
speaker-0: Bye! Bye!
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speaker-0: If you like what we do and want to find out more, all of our platforms are listed in the description or show notes. We're a two person team so any support or feedback is always greatly appreciated.
speaker-1: See you next time on Once Upon a Red Fly.
speaker-0: If you've been taken away from your home by the capital, treated like animals, denied decent medical access, starved, put on display in a bloody zoo, and then you're being asked to play ball with their systems and questions so some uppity 18 year old can get a decent grade.
speaker-1: Woe is me, someone has purposely tried to give me the worst possible tribute, my life is over. Here's where your grave site is. I'm sorry. Please make this make sense. raging book nerds, 14 years of friendship, and one burning question.
speaker-0: Yeah Katniss Everdeen posted on Reddit. Would she be the arsehole?
speaker-1: Welcome to once upon a red flag this season we're stepping into Panem where every tribute tyrant and mentor gets their day in the Am I the Asshole courtroom? I am Rachel and I'm Rachel
speaker-0: And join us where we read between the red flags and break down the Hunger Games. One questionable decision at a time. Welcome back everybody to part three of episode 17 of Once Upon a Red Flag. We are continuing our discussion about snow. And if you've been watching these as they release rather than binging them back to back like we know Rachel would do, or if you found your way here without watching any other related episodes and don't fancy going backwards just yet, let's have a little recap.
speaker-1: Yeah, so President Snow is not yet president, but he's still talking like he is one, all the same. ⁓ He's basically asking if he's the asshole for treating life and love like a strategic investment. And I guess up to this point we've been focusing a lot on his backstory, like the war he lived through as a child, the things he witnessed in the war. like his dad's friend cannibalizing a dead maid and just like the general toxicity of the people around him. Are you okay, Katie? I'm glad ate this one. just have to bring it up.
speaker-0: I mean, like everyone has been anti-district since the dark days and probably pre dark days to be honest. But no one was big into watching the deaths of children, which fair, right? And even if they were children of like their so-called enemies, like it's not really a nice thing to watch anyone go through. And these people probably saw enough death during the war that they definitely don't want to watch any more of it for like entertainment.
speaker-1: And that's entirely fair. I think I'd be the same. But we know a bunch of high schoolers have literally been tasked with getting people to care about the games. And they've been given like a whole new framework to function within to do this. Now these tributes are going to be interviewed by their mentors that capital citizens know more about them. And they have the chance to be interviewed live on TV right before they go into the arena. So you can really see the... Hunger Games as we know it from the original trilogy, like being born in these moments, you can really see how we're going from something I guess rather unorganized that lot of people don't really care about, like into like the big grand spectacle that it becomes ⁓ in the mid-Georgia as we get towards 74th and 75th Hunger Games. you can see how that we're gonna go from like bare bones to something that earns the capital a crap. ton of money. Like this is the big turning point here. This 10th games is where this all starts to come together. And Kori Elena Snow has had a direct hand in a lot of those changes. And his candidate Lucy Gray becomes a perfect model for what those games could be. is like, or she would have been, I guess, the first victor, the first like big celebrity one. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Today is the day that we really get to dig into Lucy Gray, well that rhymed, and her relationship to and with the Coriolanus Snow. So we spoke last time about how all the tributes are treated as possessions by their mentors, as if their ability of their tribute is linked directly to the mentors' achievements themselves, which is honestly a little bit weird. And a lot of these tributes don't want to cooperate with their mentors no matter what they do, which honestly, fair enough. And if you've been taken away from your home by the capital, treated like animals, denied decent medical access, starved, put on display in a bloody zoo, and then you're being asked to play ball with their systems and questions so some uppity 18 year old can get a decent grade, you're definitely not going to want to cooperate at all, are you?
speaker-1: Like, no. Really no.
speaker-0: I know but Lucy Grey Baird who on paper is like the worst tribute to have, she's obviously the district 12 girl meant to be the smallest, the frailest, the first to die, plays ball with Corio and how much do we think this is down to who she is as a person, like her personality, rather than Corio turning up at the station and getting into the monkey cage at the zoo with her? What's your thought?
speaker-1: I think it's possibly a bit of both. I think she is just that person. But like, you've seen other mentors and how they behaved, right? Can you imagine what would happen if Lucy Gray had been given to Arachne instead? mean, Arachne would still be alive because Lucy Gray as a person is not brutal enough to kill her. But I don't think she would cooperate with the questionnaire or the interview. ⁓ Don't forget, like at one point she says, what's the point of doing the interview? It doesn't get me anything. Like I'm going to go on stage and sing for you like you want me to, Koyo. But like that doesn't achieve anything, right? So if she had someone like her actor who wasn't treating her like a human being, she would just be like, Saja, personally as well, think. I think it's a combination of her personality. and Corio kind of like brings them together. But I also wonder like what would Corio have done if like Lucy Gray didn't have such dramatic weeping? What if she wasn't that person? So like what if she hadn't put the snake down Mayfair's dress? got slapped and then like burst into song on stage. It's a very dramatic griefing and that's what makes choreo snap. Yeah, that's what makes him snap out of his like, woe is me, someone has purposely tried to like give me the worst possible tribute my life is over, like attitude that he starts off with. What would have happened if she hadn't done any of that? If he had got another girl from District 12 and was reaped instead, would we end up where we are at the end of this book if it wasn't these two specifically?
speaker-0: We a lot in the last episode about Corio's actions in the monkey cage at the zoo, so we won't repeat ourselves with that. We won't bore anyone. But this is the start of Lucy Gray's relationship with Corio, since he is the only one that takes the initiative and I guess it earns him some kind of respect. And he starts the trend of the mentors then visiting their tributes and trying to drum up some good press for them, even when the cameras aren't there actively broadcasting interviews to the rest of the capital. There are still capital citizens there to watch and interact with the tributes like they're animals in the zoo. But at least they're offering them food, right? They're getting fed. yeah, it becomes normal for a while before acne's death. to find tons of people around the Tribute's cage. And even then Snow still finds a way to get into the zoo to visit her when it isn't technically allowed. And there is an instance of Corio doing this that really gives me like the ick. Snow goes to visit Lucy Grey the day after Arachne's throat is slit. And he starts to say how much Lucy Grey means to him and how basically amazing she is. and all I can think of while he's done this is just like how this is all all lies. He might not be trying to get into her pants, fair enough, but he's trying to use her for something like that's for sure like it's not genuine it's not like from a good place and let's be honest we all know we all know someone like that there's always one.
speaker-1: Yeah, there's usually quite a few that you meet throughout your life who they say stuff for the things that they want. And everywhere you turn you will sort of go, well, how much of what you're telling me is true right now? How much of what you're telling me is because you want something. And this question of how much he lies to her, how much does he care about her? like, why does he care about her? Like, that's the question that I hope we'll be able to answer by the end of this episode, because I go... backwards and forwards, like, I don't think I ever believe he's head over heels in love with her. That's never something that think that Kariyo is even capable of with anyone. And thankfully, I also don't really believe that Lucy Gray feels that way about him either. I don't think she's head over heels for him. ⁓ But with Snow, I kind of have this sliding scale from like, is he only interested in her for what she can give him to like... Is he actually attracted to her? Not in love with her, but attracted to her and then he's trying to justify his attraction. And I think maybe it changes up and down depending on the day. Like I think he is that fickle. And then the reason that we have such trouble figuring out what their relationship is, is because it does change day to day, hour to hour, depending on what he wants and needs and how he justifies it to himself. But like, I'm hoping that we can have like a definitive answer. and dig through all of this, like to pinpoint the root of it, because this is something that plagues me as I read the book where you go, okay, maybe he is human. And then you go, okay, no, no, that's definitely not human. Something's going on here.
speaker-0: He obviously, he talks to her and he says some sweet stuff and tells her about himself and even like apologises to her that she's in the games and it seems to kind of sway her opinion of him because she says things to him like she doesn't believe he's, you know, he is there with her for grades and glory and I think she says something like he's a rare bird. So is he actively wooing her to get her on her side? Or is this a side effect of what he was trying to achieve? That's what I can't figure out.
speaker-1: Yeah, and he does say something as well though, like maybe the reason that he finds her so easy to tell things to is because whatever he tells her, that will vanish into the arena. And I guess if you really think about it, who can Koryo have an honest conversation with? He doesn't really have anyone in his life currently, before the arena, before the mentorship, apart from Tigress and his grandmom. And they keep a lot of things from his grandmother, because they don't want to stress her out and worry her about everything that's going on. So we can't really have friends who truly know him, because to get close to someone, that means he would risk all those lies that we talked about and that carefully built house of cards coming down around him, this carefully crafted facade he has, that he still has money and status. I sort of think, well, part of his attraction to Lucy Gray could be the fact that he actually now can get close to someone who isn't directly his family, because it can never get out with her, right? No matter what he tells her, he doesn't need to trust her in that way, because she doesn't have a status that would threaten him. Like she is not in society in the same way every single other person in his life is. And the comment said that. he is expecting her to die in the arena anyway. anything that he tells her will go to the grave with her within a matter of weeks. And part of me wonders then if he follows her to 12 because of that, both sides of it. Like she's the only one who can fully understand him, but she's also the only one who has information about him that could hurt him even further.
speaker-0: I think you are right. Like you think she's going to die in the arena, right? She's the female tribute from District 12. And it's not until after the arena is bombed on that arena tour that he thinks about her in a different way. I know we're going to talk more about this arena tour and the aftermath of the bombing in a later episode, namely in the Dr. Ghaul episode, but it's enough right now to simply remember that they televised the tributes touring the arena with their mentors prior to the game starting. the arena where these tributes are going to fight to their death. As if it wasn't scary enough, they get like a run through. And this is crazy.
speaker-1: Here's where your grave site is
speaker-0: I know and people definitely will be talking about this like I said during the Dr. Gould episode but some unknown rebels supposedly bomb this arena though no one knows when they laid this trap or like how or who these rebels are and like multiple tributes and mentors die because of this and some tributes obviously escape like Marcus and a lot of these tributes who aren't killed are then seriously injured from this event. and while mentors are assured that their tributes will be taken care of, they're treated by a vet, not even by a doctor. And when the vet said they actually needed access to decent human medicine, it was rejected. Like what the hell? So these are the weakest tributes they have probably ever had. They have been fed this time, sure, but like no other year has had tributes with smoke inhalation, burns covering the bodies, et cetera. Like it's just horrific when you think about it. some die after that arena getting bombed but before the games themselves so it's like this is just horrific it's like you've gone to the capital to be put into the Hunger Games to die but no surprise surprise you don't actually have a chance to live by fighting you're just gonna get blown up prior to the games. I guess if you were the weakest of the weakest that might be silver lining I don't know but And some also run off, like I said, they're attempted to run off and get shut down by the peacekeepers. So it's just, it's a complete shambles. Even as I'm talking about it, I'm like, this is just a complete shambles and really badly organized.
speaker-1: gonna jump in and sort of hint at the Dr. Gwaal episode a little bit just to like help everyone's like, excitement for it. Because I do think it is supposedly Rebels who bomb and I will be going off about who I think actually set that trap. Because one of the things they say as well is they don't know when they set that trap. Because I think Snow says something like they could be pressure-centered. pressure sensors, so like they were on timers for when they went through the gates in the first place. So it's like anyone could have put those bombs in place from within the capital between the end of the last game to the start of the first games, thinking that they would like pull these like tributes out and then damage the arena and stuff. But I'm not entirely buying that. It seems a bit sus right? Stick around for that one.
speaker-0: Yeah, I guess we'll discuss that more than. So does that really make.
speaker-1: Doesn't does it? So you think hang on a bit who's tried to kill these guys now? Yeah
speaker-0: So anyway, I can't go off on that tangent right now. all around Lucy Gray, these tributes are looking battered and so, so unwell. And obviously Lucy Gray's odds are looking a bit better now. Like she literally tells Corio that she thinks maybe she could actually win now. And he admits to himself that up to this point, he hasn't really tried to make her a winner. So he was just kind of hoping he could of like big her up. And then this image he has built up for her will kind of rub off on him now and make him look good. And this is after he's been getting closer to her, telling her all these sweet nothings. And she probably, she probably thinks he loves her and Snow in a weird twisted way can probably convince himself that's what love is. And he still hasn't been working to keep her alive, just working to give himself credit for the scholarship.
speaker-1: Yeah. And then like, it's after this arena thing that he literally says that he's happy that her hands have healed from the burns they got in the arena. But it's not so that she could defend herself, but it's because that means that she could play the guitar they borrow from Pluribus while she sings like the televised interview to draw more attention for him, not for her, attention for him. Like he does have the grace to admit to himself that he should have been trying to save her. to help her be a victor, even if her odds were awful. Especially since he claimed that she mattered to him in the zoo and that obviously makes it so much worse. He's just like, yeah, she can die, but at least then her hands are healed so she can play a guitar, not that she can defend herself and fight. And as I'm saying this, I'm sort of going, what other victor do we know had his hands injured right before he went to the arena? Weird little parallel there.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But then at least I realise he's messed up a little bit here. Like, it's not great. His actions aren't matching up to his words. Unfortunately though, he does not take the opportunity to learn from this and change his actions and be a better person. Because if he had, we wouldn't be here. He just doesn't have it in him. Let's be honest. He can't change. He is who he is. He is set. He doesn't want to change. And this is all... after she has saved his life. In that arena bombing, he gets pinned by a falling beam and that beam is on fire. Like she chose rather than make a run for it because he does say that like he saw her like turn to where all the other like, to be fair they did get like gunned down, like the none of the guys who escaped actually survived. But there was that opportunity for her to try and make a run for it and she doesn't. She... chooses instead to save his life, right? She literally like lifts a burning beam off him. He's seconds away from catching on fire himself and burning to death. She has braved this beam, this burning like heavy piece of wood to lift it entirely off his body on her own and then grabs hold of him and helps him limp away to sift.
speaker-0: There's definitely a joke in there about another District 12 girl tribute almost being on fire, but we'll save that for another time.
speaker-1: you couple that with the the pizza and the hands and everything you sort of just go well hang on a minute there's some very clever little plotter here done by Suzanne Collins isn't there? I needed that I needed that joke because I'm about to get angry again. ⁓ So we're gonna get into Snow's reaction now to being rescued right? So like he does say to a couple people that she did save his life. And there was another girl, is it Lysa Strata who's saved by Jessup as well? goes around telling people that like he saved her life, he like covered her body with his own to like prevent her from getting injured as well. And that's like, I think she gets sort of a negative reaction from that. People saying, well, you're making him out to more human than he is kind of stuff. And so he could have like, keep shtum a little bit more on how Lucy Gray saved him. And Snowy's reaction is to be concerned about what Capitol TV caught on camera because the whole idea of this arena tour was to be caught on camera, the Mentals and the Tributes going around touring. So that means Capitol TV caught the attack on camera as well. so he's happy when he says like, on TV, all the stuff that they show is obscured by smoke. No one can really like see on TV what happened. But he wants to know if any footage exists of him being rescued by Lucy Gray, because at one point apparently he's clinging to her skirt, scared and injured, like waiting for medical treatment to arrive. And my honest reaction to this is, my God, like God forbid his life be saved by a girl from District 12 and God forbid he be scared that he almost died. Like... That just makes you human, dude. Anyone else in that situation who has also lived through the capital being bombed in your childhood, that will bring back some PTSD. That is going to bring back some actual human feelings. God forbid anyone see that you have those.
speaker-0: I mean, he is so obsessed with image. We already know this, like, you his image, Lucy Gray's image, and even the consequences of the images he has crafted. Like, he's the one who tells her to perform for a televised interview the night before she goes into the games, and then gets all jealous about her song and the reaction people have to her. Like, she's obviously singing about her ex-boyfriend in a song she wrote herself, which is a brilliant achievement. And all he can say is that she is his girl. and now everyone in the capital has heard her sing about another guy and that has undermined him and basically humiliated him. What is his possessiveness? She belongs to him? Like, but only because she was assigned to him during the reaping. Like, she's singing about a life before him, which she is fully entitled to have and since she didn't just spontaneously come into being the second he entered into her life, like, don't forget... like about the girl he was falling around with in the back alley on on Adair, like he's being so hypocritical because even though he hasn't had a girlfriend before now he still has a history just like Lucy Gray does and then he's also said he barely even knows the girl that he has a history with and doesn't necessarily want her then he like but when it comes to Lucy Gray like he doesn't want anyone else to have her. but also for no one else to have had a past with her or have had to have her in the past. It gets really confusing. is this reminding you of anyone else we've heard about in this series? A guy likes a girl but also doesn't know if he really does like her or want her for the right reasons and would scarred her really easily in the end when he wants someone else. Remind you of anybody.
speaker-1: gonna take that Gail reference one step further. Because I want us to remember how everyone thought that Gail and Katniss would eventually get together and how she acted like he took personal offense like every time she told him that she couldn't think about anything romantic because there's too much other stuff going on like war and evil president attacking her, threatening her personally, fighting for her life, know, things like that. And then obviously Gayl Axe is a targeted attack every time she defers that conversation for later. ⁓ Every time she doesn't choose him right at that second. ⁓ Cori had something similar when he says that Lucy Gray betrays him. She's humiliated him by singing about somebody else. You know what the biggest takeaway is from this? Cori Leanna Snow could never date Taylor Swift.
speaker-0: my god. mean she's got a lot of content. mean, he gets so... I know. Whole album. Whole album. He cares more about this in the moment than he does about the success he had achieved for Lucy Gray and then what success that would then reflect on himself. Like he has put her on this stage, he has got her this like a filly in the race, his dog in the fight as he refers to her.
speaker-1: I'm ready.
speaker-0: and turned her into a success and he sees that as his achievement not something she was capable of all along on her own. Like he did that, he made her great, he's been out to earn credit for this scholarship from the very beginning and now he's achieved that he can't even fully enjoy it.
speaker-1: No, he really can't. And this is where we get into like there being some genuine emotion going on now, I guess, because whether it's misguided or misplaced, like Lucy Gray definitely holds some sway over his feelings to get him to this point. Like whether it's once again like Gail and someone else is like coveting his shiny new toy, or like whether it is just like taking physical attraction to mean something more than it does, is also a possibility. I want to talk about this back and forth that he does to try and justify his feelings for someone quote unquote lesser than himself because like the one thing he can decide on is that she is not capital, but she's Corvée, she's not district either. But she is district because even she admits like when they reinforce district lines after the dark days, the Corvée weren't allowed to travel. where they used to, they couldn't be like a nomadic troop anymore. ⁓ They just were rounded up into District 12. So now she is district, even if she wasn't before, but she's not capital. And therefore, even though she is human, she isn't human. She's like, and he says something less than, like a second class citizen. He goes as far as to use the word bestial, which, and he continues to say, and I quote, He says something like, perhaps, but not evolved. Part of a shapeless mass of unfortunate barbaric creatures that hovered on the periphery of his consciousness. Surely, if there had ever been an exception to the rule, it was Lucy Graybeard. And that's an if. If there's an exception to the rule, he is not saying at all that she is the exception to the rule. There isn't an exception. But then...
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: He also goes on to say that if you think about it, since they're not district, the Corvia are almost capital because she seems really at home here and really understands how to work the crowd. She fits in and that's the line he uses with Lucky Flickerman, the way he spins her on live TV to win sponsors for Lucy Gray. is she capital? Is she Corvia? Is she district? Is she not district? Is she the same as he is? Can he actually love her if she's less than him? this stuff. And he never fully buys this idea that she is equal to him.
speaker-0: He also can't decide what to refer to Lucy Gray as, like is she his girlfriend, his sweetheart and says it's only really a crush but when she kisses him before she goes into the games he kisses her back and goes in for another kiss. Like he says the kiss even makes his head spin but why? Is it like that attraction or does she represent to him his saving grace? He got the worst candidate on paper, the District 12 girl as we've discussed. He went into this mentorship program wanting to impress the Academy. Hugh obviously gives out a university scholarship every single year and he needs to win that if he has any hope of going to university when he graduates. And when he got the District 12 girl, the game should have been over for him. He should have just like automatically lost. But he was lucky instead. He got Lucy Gray by some sort of like divine intervention. He has been handed his saving grace because I don't think either of us believe he could have gotten as far as he did with another tribute instead. Lucy Grey is his final chance to get this scholarship and that would keep his foot in the door with high society meaning that he still might be able to raise his family back to glory. Is that what T is in love with? Not the girl but the opportunity she represents.
speaker-1: the airtime she brings him. the bigger the personality she has, the more people sponsor her, the longer she lasts in the games. Like, she doesn't just give him future potential, she actually brings him more renown, like even more food. Like, she helps him survive. Like, so it's like the mentors who are staying in the hall at the Academy, like they're watching the action happen live in the arena while the tributes are in there. and they have their own communicuffs and they're using that to like, order these drones to send in food. They're waiting to see like who lives, who dies, like if their tribute pops their head out so that they can give them refreshments, they can send in water, they can make sure that they aren't starving in there. But while the tributes are in there, the mentors are in the academy, the mentors are being fed. They still don't get breakfast, but the longer it goes into the evenings, they're still getting lunch and dinner. Obviously, Koryo sees this as another reason for wanting Lucy Gray to stay alive. Because he says he's the talent now, and he gets a real dinner, and the fact that he gets these perks makes him feel important. Which is all they want to really, isn't it? feel important.
speaker-0: Yeah and like if we're talking about things he does in the games themselves we need to talk about Jessup. We need to talk about Jessup. He comes running after Lucy Gray out of the tunnels trying to attack her and obviously just a reminder Jessup is the male tribute from District 12 with Lucy Gray and she's getting as far away from him as possible because he's got rabies. The poor guy got sent to the Capitol So being in the Hunger Games gets to the zoo pen gets bitten by what is it possum in the end I think they figure out it is not a rat.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's something like a possum or a raccoon or something. It's a little trash panda.
speaker-0: I also just, I want to just like, I want to deviate just for a second to the fact that when they figure out that it was the Possums that a bit him, the Capitol reporter and Flickerman, can't remember which iteration of Flickerman this is because so many of them.
speaker-1: There's there's Lucky Flickerman, is it Lucky Flickerman? And there's Lepidus Monsay, who's the one who's like doing like live interviews and then Lucky is doing like the main presenter thing.
speaker-0: this bit gets me every time once they confirm that he obviously has rabies and it was a possum. The guy who does the interviews and has been at the zoo for the Capitol TV interviews, literally goes, ⁓ my god, I was at the zoo and someone has to tell him like, know, can't just catch rabies from being around one. He's like, yeah, but one of those weird possum creatures was like touching my equipment. And it's so tone deaf because like dude, this guy just on TV.
speaker-1: That's how we all
speaker-0: from rabies and falling down and cracking his head in and you're stood there worried about a possum touching your camera equipment. Anyway, it's just so, it's just so dope.
speaker-1: And what's so bad as well with it being Jessup is that up to this point Jessup and Lucy Gray were allies. Jessup's a big guy. was looking after Lucy Gray and they were a team together. And then for him to actually turn on Lucy Gray because of the rabies and how it's impacting him, it's just so sad.
speaker-0: Yeah. And obviously for everyone ⁓ watching and mentors, kind of comes out of nowhere. Like she's getting as far away from him as possible because he's got rabies and seeing that Jessip goes mad at the sight of the bottles of water flying towards him with the drone. Corio doesn't think twice about sending massive amounts of water towards Lucy Gray and Jessip to drive him away from her. I do want to say that he does like, he seems to be more concerned about Lestrata and her emotion about her tribute than he does about Jessup, if that makes sense. So he does have some reservations about doing it for his fellow mentor, but he doesn't really have any reservations doing it about the lives of the person that he is definitely about to kill.
speaker-1: for Joseph. Yeah.
speaker-0: And Lestrata literally steps up and know, realizes a tribute can't win because you know, he's rabid. She uses her money to carry out Corio's plan. This ultimately leads to Death's death. He falls down, he cracks his head open. He's driven so mad by the war so that he falls to his death. Neither of them, Lestrata or Snow, have really valued the human life in front of him. And we know, you know, Lestrata does get upset. He kind of, you know, she was like, ⁓ he was a nice guy. But we know if Lestrata had offered to carry this plan. out, Snow probably would done it anyway, but he was out of the game so he might as well help, she was out of the game, as in Jessup was out of the game, so she might as well, Sharta, Snow win. I know there's lots of moving parts.
speaker-1: It's confusing because the mentors are winning, they're winning at the same time their tributes are winning. And they're losing at the same time they're losing. So you've got two people who are losing, one of them's losing their lives and one of them's losing like an inter scholar competition or something. It's just two different levels that really don't match up.
speaker-0: It's like the levels are losing ⁓ fight to the deaf gladiator competition annual life and losing spelling bee. Yeah. They don't really.
speaker-1: Pretty much. ⁓
speaker-0: It's so bad.
speaker-1: ⁓ But like, that is all his manners, isn't it? They just want to win no matter what they want, it's all tactics. It's probably the only, I guess, allowable example of Koryo employing tactics. Because he also employs some other things that are less allowable that I'm sure we'll be discussing again later on. But the tactics I'm talking about here for context are the ones that give him grounds for expulsion. the first infraction. is to start smuggling food into the arena with Lucy Gray, like specifically food from the Academy. like everyone is aware that every mentor has smuggled in food for their tribute, but kind of has the goal to smuggle in food that he did not even pay for. you know, that's his first strike as far as the Academy is concerned. Strike two is then when he gives Lucy Gray his mother's compact. Which like, on the surface, it seems like a lovely token, because he treasures this compact. It seems like, you know, maybe he does actually care for her, because one of the remaining mementos that he has of his dead mother. But then he suggests that maybe she should fill it with rat poison from the zoo. And then take that into the arena as another weapon. ⁓ Which you know, not, people aren't going to be on board with that one. And then finally he realizes that Dr. Gorm. plans to release the snake mutts in the arena. Or at least he realizes there was a chance that she might do this because she is sick and twisted. ⁓ So like, he on impulse then drops that handkerchief into the snake mutt enclosure. It smells like Lucy Gray, she's had hold of it, she's given it him back. So these mutts only attack things that don't remind them of comfort. So now they're associated in Lucy Gray's scent with their home. which obviously protects her. And even Snorrimself doesn't know exactly why he has done this, whether he's protecting Lucy Gray because he wants her to survive, like herself, or whether he just wants her to win because that then is his own win. And if it's like the latter, it isn't really a noble cause. Like then he actually cheated to win. He's not now trying to save her life. He is just trying to win. monetary gain a scholarship, either the academies or the one that the plinths put up. And I think we both know why Snow did it. I think we know that it's not about Lucy Gray's life, is it?
speaker-0: No, no, it's never about other people. For him, you know, relationship with his cousin going downhill and that was like the closest person that he really had as a friend and that went bad. So no, it's not about other people. This is The Snow Show. So obviously when Snow gets caught out for cheating, he gets handed a punishment and his punishment is to sign up for the Peacekeepers
speaker-1: always a vibe.
speaker-0: immediately. He gets shipped out to District 12 as he requests with the intention of meeting up with Lucy Gray there but he doesn't care enough to actually ask about her. He's too worried about his reputation. Luckily no one in 12 really has a TV or even really follows The Hunger Games so no one recognises him. Remember this is before watching The Hunger Games is actually mandatory in the districts. So No one puts two and two together about this new recruit from the Capitol being from a high-powered family and that's how Corio wants it to stay. So, protecting this information is more important than finding Lucy Gray for him and he finally hears about the lead singer of a band being back from the Capitol and they are going to be performing on Saturday night. So, off he goes and he stays in the shadows and just watches her until the end of performance. And he sees her interacting with the other peacekeepers, turning on the same charm she has been doing to win her favour in the capital during the Hunger Games. And that jealousy rears its ugly head as he wonders how friendly can she be? So he basically slutsh-s-s-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut-slut
speaker-1: is doing super well. And his grandmother has already made a similar comment in the capital as well. I think she said something like, well, I he also said to me like, she's not really a district girl. Like meaning like she's not really district. And his grandmother responds by affirming that she's indeed district and then says, trust me, that one hasn't been a girl in a long time. And I would love to say that this is his grandmother who was planting this idea in his head from that comment. I would love to say that wondering how friendly she can be and basically slouch aiming her in his own head. I'd love to say that's like toxic family traits, like an idea that's been passed down generations. ⁓ But last time, in the last episode, we spoke about him thinking Tigress had sold her body to pay for food for them to eat as well. This is then without bringing up the fact that this topic of discussion is brought up between Cario and Lucy Gray as well. Lucy Gray says that she's never had to do it to feed the rest of the Corvi, including her younger sister Maud Ivory, but she would do it. And I think that she says she would do anything to put food on the table specifically for Maud Ivory. And this is the fact that like in hard times, Corio accuses both women of this with such distaste in his mouth. Like he is not recognizing any of the sacrifice that would mean for them personally. in such dire straits, like there may not be another option. Like that is the world that we are talking about here. But then this judgment from him comes from the idea, even like this simple idea. that they could have made such a choice. That even though they haven't done it, they would consider it because that is obviously, unfortunately, a tool that women have at their disposal if they are really, really struggling. And what are we talking about here if we're not talking about starvation in districts, starvation in the capital. For God's sake, the guy watched his friend eat a maid, a dead maid, like, and yet you seem to judge that less harshly than sex work? I'm sorry. Please make this make sense.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think it comes back to this idea of procession again. know, Tigress is his family, his cousin, and Lucy Gray is his girl and she shouldn't be shared with anyone in the past, present or future for any reason. And he's even happy that Lucy Gray is, you know, beautiful when she's singing because she's happy and that happiness shines out of her. but it's in a way that's not just that he can see but anyone and that could be a problem for him. And then it feels like he manipulates her into being with him. Like he makes himself known to her at the end of a set on the first night and kisses her and he says she believes in fate and him being in a district with her like would imply that and that would guarantee that she would be loyal to him. if they are meant to be together because it is fated. And then he says, no one turned his head in the Capitol anyway. And he doubted anyone else in District 12 could possibly be worth his attention anyway. And then as their relationship continues, he pretty much says he preferred it when she was in the Capitol with him, not for any of the benefits of living in the Capitol over District 12 or the fact that he wouldn't have fallen from grace, but then in the Capitol. Lucy Gray was locked in the monkey cage at the zoo or the arena fighting for her life and at least he knew where she was all the time. Yikes. Yikes. That's so bad. It's so so bad.
speaker-1: There are no words for this. are zero words. is his possession. She is his star. In his mind, like he made her the star she was in the capital. So that's all the value that she has and she is his because he made it. That's it. Really, that is all there is. She is like the best thing he's got now because it's something, because she is something that is his that he made and he's going to keep her because that's the one achievement that he's got.
speaker-0: Wow, is going to keep her until something better comes along at least because he only agrees to run away with Lucy Grey near the end of the book because he's scared that his time is running out and soon everyone will figure out that he is the one who killed the mayor's daughter. The reason Lucy Grey even wants to run away is because the mayor is convinced she is the one behind his daughter's death and he is basically harassing her. She's scared that the mayor will kill her and so they're going to run away to the north where there are rumours there is a settlement of people who are off the capital's radar. These are obviously rumours of District 13, which is honestly so ironic. ⁓ Corio doesn't really believe this settlement exists. He says the capital controls the known world and he's embarrassed for anyone who believes these people truly exist. and if they did exist he imagines them to be cavemen, barely human, even lower than the districts. He is willing to run away with her because he expects he will die soon too and be hung for murder. The guns that were used in the killing of Mayfair Lip and Billy Tote haven't been found yet and he is just waiting for the other shoe to drop. He wants to get out of there and he wants to get out of there now. Like he doesn't hear about Lucy's grey wanting to go. and make the choice to go with her, to look after her and keep her safe like a normal person and lover would do, he agrees to go to protect himself from being found out for murder. We will be discussing more about Lucy Gray's fate in the next episode but they get as far as the cabin before he finds the guns and realises he can basically destroy the evidence and you know by this point He has found out that he has been accepted onto the accelerated course after passing the office's test with flying colours and he can ship out the District 2 and quote unquote make something of himself. So he might even be able to reach the goals he planned on with the peacekeepers rather than the university approach he was originally set on. He has a second chance and he would rather take that. Meanwhile, Lucy Gray has figured out that Snow is responsible for Sir Janus's death, which we will be talking more about in the next episode, and this means she has realised exactly who Corio is when he drops his good guy performance. She knows he is responsible for the Mayor's daughter's death, having witnessed it, and he realises that she needs silencing if he can truly tie up all the loose ends and move forward. So... Naturally, he chases after her with loaded gun and starts shooting in all directions. course. Of course. Naturally. I know. And when he is satisfied that he's either shot her or made her so scared that she won't ever return to District 12 and will continue on her plan to run away on her own, he stinks the guns in the lake, covers his tracks and just goes on with his life like nothing ever.
speaker-1: It's the only choice.
speaker-0: happened in this moment never existed. So he goes back to the base, he ships out for what he believes his district to, but ends up being in the capital, where it turns out that he can just resume the life he had before the Hunger Games even happened. With one notable difference, he's pretty much got everything he ever wanted. Like, was that easy? Like, what the hell? Like, I really feel... Damn sorry for whatever woman Snow manages to trick into marrying him and having kids with him later in life because we know he does, we know he has a granddaughter when it's the 75th Hunger Games. Half the time with Lucy Gray, Snow has been like a predator circling its prey and Lucy Gray even feels like a victim who has fallen in love with their kidnapper, basically Stockholm syndrome from him being her mentor for the Hunger Games. This is not a healthy relationship. So I have to have to mention it. I have to ask people out there, why the hell were there so many snow edits after this film came out? Why were we romanticizing President Snow? I get the actor was hot, that no, no, no, stop it. No, red flag, not the relationship you want. This is not healthy guys. Like, where are we watching different films? Did no one read these books? These are the questions I'm concerned for people's welfare.
speaker-1: Some women love a bad boy, what can I say?
speaker-0: Yeah, but not a terrorist.
speaker-1: I mean, you been on Kindle Unlimited lately? Have you been on?
speaker-0: I don't have a kindle.
speaker-1: Don't do it. ⁓ There are some fantastic books on there. However, the book talk community of dark romance, some of them I've read aren't too bad. Some of them are kind of like, okay, well, he's morally gray and so she, so it's fine. ⁓ There's been a couple where you sort of go, okay, maybe not. ⁓ you know what? I'm going to call my friend out here. I haven't read Haunting Adeline yet. Haunting Adeline, Haunting Adeline, but there's some dismemberment that goes on. ⁓ that's possibly a spoiler. I don't know. There's, keep being told that one of her first books, I'm looking at you, you know, you know, I'm looking at right now. I know you're watching. One of her first books was Stalker Romance. And I do not think the girl had it in her. ⁓ I haven't read it yet. ⁓ if, if there's no way it's concerned you. maybe steer clear of the dark romance genre because it gets so much worse than what you're thinking of right now. So much worse, So moving on from that quickly before we go too deep into let's dismember someone. Is now a good time to raise the theory? Do you need to it to a cover from that conversation?
speaker-0: Hey, interesting. No, I'm fine. Keep going. I'll recover while you talk.
speaker-1: It's now a good time to raise a theory that we see a lot and a theory that I have previously said I did not buy. yet rereading this book has convinced me that this theory is in fact canon. ⁓ you can now not convince me otherwise. Because we never see Lucy Gray's body. That never happens. Even when people write to Snorm and tell him about the disappearance of Lucy Gray. No one ever finds a body. She does not return back to District 12. And the routes they took, like the location where her body would be, is known to her Corvier family. Like they would have found her if she was there. So, did Lucy Gray, in fact, continue her plan to run away and end up in District 13 and marry some guy there and give birth to President Alma Coyne?
speaker-0: But this is not my theory, like ages ago.
speaker-1: I was like, don't buy it. I'm not sure. I'm not convinced. And now everywhere the book and I'm like, okay, yeah, you want something because I going, going by the, the Covey naming conventions, right? It's the name from a ballad and the color, right? Well, we never find out if Alma coin ever has a middle name. However, there is apparently a satirical ballad called Alma. I googled, I googled, there is a ballad called Alma. ⁓ And so like her first name would fit Corbyn conventions. But you could also probably argue that most first names would be the subject to some sort of song at some point in history. So really any name that she could ever have been given could have been part of a ballad. ⁓ But it might go some way to explaining why President Coyne. was so against not just the capital, but also the districts as well. Because you'd have, if Lucy Gray gave her the full story of what happened with President Snow when he was the president, you'd always have to talk about the history that she had with the district itself and how the mayor was so convinced that his daughter could do no wrong, that butter couldn't melt and then he rigged the reaping. for Lucy Gray and all that kind of stuff. You can kind of see then how A, she's neither district nor capital leaning when it comes to the war, but also why she seems to be so against both and why she wants to rule in her way. But like that's a theory that you were convinced of. And now I think I'm on your side. think.
speaker-0: I only took you like four months.
speaker-1: I think I did say I had to reread the book again. had to reread the book runs but I'm like, is she dead? Is she not? I'm like, okay, yeah, she's not dead. Definitely not dead. ⁓ do want us to end this episode though with a question that I think we can probably answer of Snow's Am I the asshole post already? So is he the asshole for treating love like a strategic investment? Have we come to a conclusion about how he truly felt about Lucy Gray and how Lucy Gray truly felt about him? Was it all a performance? And I know you mentioned that whoever he married, like you feel sorry for whoever he marries and has kids with. It's also worth noting for this question that
speaker-0: ⁓ huh. Ike.
speaker-1: He actually says he doesn't like the way that love made him feel, which is basically out of control. And so despite himself like getting on okay with people like Lysistrata and Clemencia, he says Livia Cardiu, the worst and most annoying and toxic female student we have met at the academy at all, would be the best choice for him because he does hate her. ⁓ So therefore he could never love her and he could never be out of control. So like if he went down that path, I do think he would also suffer some, not just her. But that sort of really gives you the idea of what he thinks about love in general. is he the asshole? Lucy Grey and his opinions on love.
speaker-0: think he never truly loves Lucy Gray, just loved the way that Lucy Gray made him look good and he kind of fell in love with that and then yeah, kind of went a bit out of hand. I think Lucy Gray might have loved him, which then makes that situation really awkward. And then yeah, well, his whole treatment of this whole situation, we know he's an asshole. It kind of goes without saying. with half of our Amelie Arsell question answered that only really leaves one part left. He's asking us whether he is treating life like a strategic investment. So next time let's talk more about the lives he actually takes. It's a very steep decline into hell for Corio so I think we might be in for a heavy episode next time.
speaker-1: I think there are only gonna be heavy episodes from here on out, think, to be honest. The Hunger Games prequel books themselves are not known for being lighthearted. ⁓ You have been warned. Please have something lighthearted queued up for after our episodes because I think you might be needing a palate cleanser.
speaker-0: Yeah, so thanks so much guys. Join us next time for part four of the snow episode for songbirds of Ballads of Songbirds and Snakes. ⁓ And that'll be the last one for this snow before we get on to Ser Janus and Gull. So we'll kind of wrap it up with a nice little bow in the fourth part next time. So join us next week guys. Thanks so much for tuning in again. We really appreciate you. comment your thoughts, we want to know them, I love reading them, I know you do too Rachel, and kind of like answering them, it's always fun.
speaker-1: is honestly the best part of my dear. stick them all below. What do you think happened to Lucy Gray? Is she not? Did she make it to 13 but she's not Coyne's mother? That would be an interesting take. If anyone thinks that specifically, let me know why. yeah. Join us next time guys. Bye.
speaker-0: Bye! Bye!
speaker-1: No matter what platform you're listening to us on, make sure you like, comment, subscribe, upvote and all that.
speaker-0: If you like what we do and want to find out more, all of our platforms are listed in the description or show notes. We're a two person team so any support or feedback is always greatly appreciated.
speaker-1: See you next time on Once Upon a Red Fly.
speaker-0: If you've been taken away from your home by the capital, treated like animals, denied decent medical access, starved, put on display in a bloody zoo, and then you're being asked to play ball with their systems and questions so some uppity 18 year old can get a decent grade.
