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Welcome to the OnRecord Podcast.
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This is a podcast where we talk with professionals and subject matter experts from diverse markets and disciplines that are using video and audio in innovative ways to support their organization's objectives.
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My name is Mike Anzelone, and my co-host is Carmen Hawke.
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Today, our guest is Carlos Zalaquit.
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Carlos is the former professor of educational psychology, counseling, and special education at Penn State University.
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Carlos is also internationally recognized, is a recognized expert on therapeutic outcomes assessments, mental health, counseling, psychology, biofeedback, and neurofeedback.
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Welcome to the podcast, Carlos.
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Thank you.
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So good to be with you today.
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Yeah, we're really excited to have you on the podcast.
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And before we kind of hop into the conversation, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and uh your journey um throughout your career and the highlights of what you've been able to accomplish so far?
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I have a long story in counseling and psychotherapy, really, because I uh I initially began um as a student of philosophy, and I always saw psychology and counseling as the runaway daughters of the larger discipline, philosophy, until I took some courses, and I got fascinated.
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You know, I have a set of instructors and faculty who talk about the mind, the soul, the behavior.
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So I ended up not only learning as much as I could, volunteering to be a TA for their courses, but also training animals in a zoo, you know, training animals in laboratory, using um applications in everyday activities.
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It became my passion.
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So all of a sudden, I got a degree uh in psychology in Chile, then I came here to get a master's in clinical psychology, then a doctorate on behavioral neuroscience.
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Um, and in every step of the way, there were new platforms that opened in front of me.
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And of course, my practice was very successful, and I have to say, um maybe I should have stayed with that, and now I will be much richer than I am.
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But I decided to go and teach because I thought this type of well of information, possibilities, tentative contributions, reconstructing of a new world couldn't be kept for the few.
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So the idea was not only to go back and teach, supervise, but also to manage and leader organizations.
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In fact, I'm still the president of the Pennsylvania Mental Health Counselors Association, past president of the Sociedad Interamericana de Psychología, and the president-elect for Division 52, which is the Society for Global Psychology of the American Psychological Association.
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So uh in all these platforms, my idea was to find ways to train better and to solve, meaning provide services and interventions with good outcomes.
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And that's what I've been doing for the last, you don't want to know how many years, because there are way too many.
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One of the things that I did early on, and this will connect with us, was to record with a tape recorder my sessions.
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And later on, with a handheld camera, when we have those those cameras coming up, I will record clients, and then we will review those videos together to understand in more depth to dig in about what was happening, what were the possibilities, what were the strengths, and how to integrate them to make a new response for a better outcome.
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So, as you can imagine, speaking with you all is a blessing because you work on a platform that has helped me accomplish those goals.
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That part of my history, and why is it that I'm having this conversation with you?
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Colonels, can can you share some examples of how you've been able to use video in terms of training your students, the researchers?
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That's incredible.
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You know, the the hair clinic, and the clinic has every room equipped with video recording systems, and they are all saved into a hub where students, faculty, and uh supervisors can go and visit or revisit the specific sessions.
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So that became central for supervision.
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Of course, we use it also for training because once you find a way to demonstrate a particular skill, if that is safe, it can be used in your lectures, especially in courses like practicum, supervision, externships, where the students can come back and provide an analysis of what they did.
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So it's not just a self-reflection based on memory.
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They can revisit the session and actually make an even better, quote unquote, self-reflection, a more accurate, you know, um analysis of what they did.
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And then we come in, supervisors, to watch the session and then watch the session with the student, highlighting the strength and competences and also bringing to the forefront areas for further improvement.
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So I used those videos in class and with my students, but always remember with all ethical and consent from the client.
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The clients know that this is a training clinic.
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And so that gives us the faculty and the student the possibility of really revise.
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Now, the second major application was to review the sessions to analyze what changes.
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What happened from session one to the final session?
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How does the client look like?
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And have a chance to assess outcome, which is one of my current um main projects.
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And in fact, we were able to accomplish that in situations that were quite interesting.
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For example, one of my colleagues said to me, We have a counselor with an accent.
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I'm sorry, uh you are telling me, which is uh I'm a faculty with an accent, and I don't think that the student is doing well, blah, blah, blah.
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I think that the student needs to be removed.
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And you go, wait a minute, it's an international student.
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Uh isn't that a little bit drastic?
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So I said, you know, why don't you build the case?
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I will look into the situation and I will get back to you or with you, and then we can discuss options.
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So what I did is I went to with Bob.
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I went to the recording, and I realized that this student happens to have a large number of clients.
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They all kept coming.
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Decisions seemed to be constructive, and when I look at the self-report of the client, they were responding in a way that demonstrated that they were improving.
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So I sat down with my colleague and I said, you know, I really uh um value your concern, but I have to say this: I don't have a way to support any actions because here is the data.
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Well, you wouldn't be able to do that if you don't have all these recordings, so that's another way.
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So supervision, training of skills, supporting case work, and also supporting research.
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So I I have taken big advantage of your system.
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That can I say?
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Can I just say, Carlos, that you are very passionate?
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It comes right through the screen.
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I can feel how much that teaching and also continuing your own education, how much it means to you.
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I'm curious, you mentioned the early adoption you had with a handheld video recorder and reviewing those tapes versus now having a different system using the Vault system, for example.
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Can you tell us the difference and the feedback you received from clients or those you were supervising then versus now?
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Is it much more commonplace?
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I'm just curious to hear how that evolution looked.
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Great question, because this is this is not a big evolution in a number of ways, but I have to tell you, those were big recording machines that you that you needed to hold on your shoulder.
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Today, we have a camera on a corner of the room.
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Second, you know, those tapes not always worked.
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So even though you did the recording, that didn't mean that you will be able to see them again.
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And to watch them, you needed to have this huge match hand with those big BHSA tapes.
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And so it was pretty innovative, but pretty overwhelming.
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Plus, you messed up in terms of capturing a lot of the things that you were recording.
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In other words, you were in the session, but your attention that should always be on the client was split between the camera and whatever the client was saying.
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So without having all that equipment that was manualized, you can have this automated system.
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You can go have the session in the best possible way without distracting yourself with all the mechanics of this.
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And at the end of the session, you can actually say, Would you like to review a moment that I and just click on the laptop, show the person the connection and all that?
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Now, how is that for magic?
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Some kids will never know the magic of VHS to digital.
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It's some someone, some people will never know.
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You guys are too young, but I can tell you, my wife, I I have changed countries and states more times than you will ever know.
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And at the end of the day, she will say, Wait, are you still carrying those boxes with those big tapes?
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Vintage.
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When do you have time to watch them?
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And I'm going, these are my treasure.
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At some point I will sit down.
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So it be they became a heavy burden.
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Your system allowed this to be stored and be accessed in an ethical and appropriate way, you know, from any point in the world, if you have the secure platform to do that.
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What can be more exciting than that?
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So all of a sudden, you can revisit the sessions with the client in place.
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One of my clients said to me once, I did tell you that, blah, blah, blah.
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And I said, I don't, I don't have any recollection.
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Let's go back to the session and check to see, because I'm really concerned that I truly let you down.
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And I want to learn where did I miss this?
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Well, we couldn't find it in the session.
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So the client deeply apologized and said, Oh, yeah, I I I was sure.
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I was convinced that I mentioned this to you.
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And I said, I know it was important to you.
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It would have been great.
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Because I would have done something about that to fulfill your request.
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The opposite happens also.
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That a client will come and say, you know, last session was outstanding.
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I woke out of that session and I went straight to my partner, you know, and we sat down and ironed out all.
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I I wouldn't be able to do it unless you you you say what you said.
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What in the world did I say?
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What was the critical, the triggering point?
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So I can go back to the session and review to say where the magic happened.
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So that has made my my own training, you know, much, much better.
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Because I can go back and revisit things that worked and understand why they did, and things that didn't work, make amends and go back at it again to regain training on those dimensions.
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So it's it's it's a it's a very constructive situation.
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I'm sorry for the number of examples, but I can give you a bunch of them.
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I feel like my job is threatened right now.
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You're very good, thus, Carlos.
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You're extraordinary.
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Yeah, I was gonna ask you, Carlos, in your description of the work that you've done with video, you've kind of implied that you've used video for both qualitative and quantitative kind of research.
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Do you feel that video can support either one of those methodologies?
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Do you have a preference of how you use video to support data collection and research?
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Oh, yeah.
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What a great question.
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And and I I'm gonna I'm gonna try to restrain myself because from a qualitative point of view, you know, you can analyze every session to understand what were the quote unquote themes and how those themes evolve over time or over sessions, in all within the session.
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And then you can also focus on a particular person and analyze that from a qualitative point of view to understand how change happens.
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Or in my case, since I am a developmental counseling therapist and also a micro-skilled um therapist, in addition to many other denominations, because I don't believe in a single therapy model.
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And so I can analyze how the micro-skills, you know, uh work out on a successful session versus a non-successful session and understand why, which ones, etc., in a qualitative way.
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But I can also multiply that by a number of clients, a number of sessions, et cetera, and do quantitative work.
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In fact, we use a system connected to yours, which is the self-report of the client.
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And we have looked at the self-report of the client to find out is there a real change from beginning to end?
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And what do you know?
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My research with my team not only shows that there is change, but it shows that the change is clinically significant.
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Because if you are a smoker and you go to my um smoke cessation treatment, and you come back at the end and you say, you know, I used to smoke 30 cigarettes a day, now I'm down to three, that will be statistically significant.
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But you are still at risk of the negative effect of nicotine because you're still smoking.
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And so change, statistically significant change is not always clinically significant.
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That's an interesting point.
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And then you can certainly uh analyze that.
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So my students are doing great, not only, I should say, our students are doing great, not only they promote change and in a significant clinical, significant way, but also we did a comparison between international and national students.
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And guess what?
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Both groups have the same rate of success.
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But here is what we found that can change a little bit the landscape of what we do.
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Yes, they were all successful, but some were more successful in improving clients' anxiety collaboratively than depression, and vice versa.
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So we figure this gives us an opportunity by the end to say to the student, you are doing very well with this type of disorders.
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Maybe you need to sharpen your skills for this other type.
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Or you can specialize in what you are already doing quite well.
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But also qualitative gave us a chance to look at the tapes and understand that we can use these sessions, analyze them, and by mid-semester say to our trainees, our students in training, you know, you are doing quite well, but here are areas of improvement.
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We still have the other half of the semester to make improvement.
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So it's not to chanticize or um criticize, but to find ways to get more rounded and competent students.
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So qualitative and quantitative pan out quite well in this process.
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You mentioned that you kind of started with that 100-pound shoulder webcam, and now you know webcam.
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Those were real cams.
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That's right.
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Vintage real cam.
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Vintage cam.
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Yeah, you know, having these high def cameras mounted in the rooms.
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During that evolution as technology has improved, what challenges have you come across, yourself, your supervisors, your students, in terms of adapting to the new technology that is available?
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Oh, that's a great question.
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And it's the number one reason of concern and my major complaint.
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Not all of our students, faculties, supervisors, and professionals are on board.
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In fact, there are many different reasons for that.
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On the one hand, you have what we call stage fright, isn't it, when you are afraid of seeing yourself in a recording.
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Number two, the issues of quote unquote using these type of recordings to instead of um apply them in a constructive educational way, to use them to attack or um criticize, you know, uh performance, or as a way to document, you know, um negative issues, or which is another major thing, you know, the issue of freedom.
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I don't like to be taped.
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I don't want to be in a training place where taping takes place.
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Well, I think that that's terrible.
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Because you are missing a tremendous opportunity.
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None of these systems are intended to be uh punishing.
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Uh, and quite the contrary, they are supposed to be used in a constructive way.
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And so, yeah, not everybody's on board.
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And I have to say, I'll be happy to sit down with anybody who disagrees and share with them the amount of information we have that demonstrate how relevant using of these systems is.
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You mentioned ethical.
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Capture and in the essence of uh doing things um with protections in place and standards in place so that you can build a comfort with people who might be resistant to the adoption of video or having a recorder or recording of themselves.
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Um would you describe a little bit more about I know the environment and the framework of the recording system you're using provides that.
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Is there anything else you put into place?
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Any other um areas that you lean into when you're maybe making a persuasive argument for video capture?
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Well, let me um, for the sake of time, let me remind all of us that telehealth happens to have a number of constraints.
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You know, from quote unquote um confirming who's the person uh participating and making sure that is the client, second, in an environment with no disruptions and with no uh witnesses or intruders, third, with clear transcription and encoding that allows for the protected transfer of that information so only people with the specific um uh software could see those tapes.
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And third, with clear agreement from the client.
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So when I say use video recording, I'm not saying use it in a dictatorial way.
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Of course, there are clients that may have a higher level of suspiciousness, or they may have uh some sort of concerns about being observed.
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It's called paranoia.
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And so uh in those cases, you will have to have a conversation with that person and over time hopefully bring them to understand of the benefits and agree to use them.
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So if you use it with clinical considerations for the best benefit of the client, making sure that these are secure platforms and making sure that the client agrees and you comply with any other, for example, HIPAA regulations, you know, the systems are pretty safe, and I believe yours are.
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I've never saw a break in the system, and we have used the system for a long time.
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Carlos, what do you think is the future of using video, particularly in your field of clinical psychology?
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Yeah, I actually let me remind you, I I am blessed enough to be on the platform of clinical psychology, counseling psychology, and also mental health and counseling, mental health and clinical counseling.
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The reason I say that is because different than others who keep turf, I really try to integrate all these fields.
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The demand of mental health is so large that there isn't enough of us to cover.
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So this idea of only we can do this, you don't, you can't, only creates an opportunity for many people missing access to mental health services.
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Now, what's the future of video recording?
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I think that it will become larger and larger.
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Let me um explain this to you.
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So one day I needed to use a recording.
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You know, not from your platform, a recording that a um colleague of mine sent me of a mock interview with one of their colleagues, and they wanted to know if it was good enough as a demonstration of the micro skills.
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And of course they sent it to me because I'm supposed to be one of the airpacks on microskills.
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And what do you know?
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I opened the video and I just couldn't get the sound because it was too loud, uh low.
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And so I put transcript.
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And the silly system did transcript in a beautiful way, and so I I contacted one of my techs, and they said, Hey, listen, get word to do a transcript of the of the session, and I'm going, what word has to do with this?
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Well, what do you know?
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He did a better job once I learned how to use it.
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The transcript was great.
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Now think about this.
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Now we have all these AI systems.
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So as you think about this, if I'm having a lot of time invested on analyzing, uh producing papers, demonstrating what the students can accomplish and all that, guess what?
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That will be sped up to an exponential of n.
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Because all the systems can do those types of analysis, transcription and analysis in fractions of a second.
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I have a colleague in Germany that developed a software now that you can use to study interaction between the non-verbal, interaction between the counselor and the client.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:40.720
And they are able to demonstrate that synchrony of movement over the length of a session predicts better rating, better outcome of that very same session.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:47.200
And if you repeat the analysis over time, that same relationship remains.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.960
Isn't that fascinating?
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:55.359
So the future, I believe, is for companies like yours.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:01.599
Because in order to apply all of these platforms, we need to have the recording.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.440
Was that research in Germany?
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.240
Is that a sequential lag analysis?
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.960
We have a lot of different models.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:28.640
Um we use multilinear um regression analysis, which is a new system, well, not a new from 2015, but it has the flexible because the major thing about what we do is that it's very subjective.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:36.319
And so when people say, when you are saying that you are effective, let me tell you the reason why we believe you are not.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:44.480
Or let me tell you why we cannot believe you because the system of analysis is flawed in a number of ways.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:29:16.640
We have a historical event in psychology where a British guy came to the United States, Hans Heisenck, and um did an analysis of psychotherapy effectiveness and reached the conclusion that this new discipline, you know, that was offering major success and major treatment for pretty much everything that was affecting anybody, actually, guess what?
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:19.359
Did not work.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:32.559
Not only that, he was as brave as to say, and for some therapies, I'm not gonna say because I don't want to get in trouble, uh, for some therapies, actually, the client got worse.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:39.119
You know the the the the reaction to all that?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:52.799
He he went back to England and only came back to the United States to an event on his uh behalf, like uh please forgive us for everything we said about you.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:30:04.079
And um, but he was a statistician and was able to demonstrate that what was demonstrated as effective was based on a flaw analysis.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:33.839
And so since then, we had been the most harsh critics of what we do, and I'm gonna tell you every time anybody came up with a successful therapy, somebody will show up and take them down for one reason or another, until these new systems of analysis came on, and all of a sudden a new perspective came up.
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:50.640
And I have to say this research today shows that we are effective to the tune of 60 to 80 percent across disorders and across therapies.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.960
The majority of the therapies happen to have some degree of effectiveness.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:04.319
I went to see a physician because I uh you know I moved to Pennsylvania, I didn't shovel the snow the first day.
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.799
So by the third day I went out to shovel, it was icy on the bottom.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.839
I just cracked the ice and shoveled out.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.880
I couldn't move my arm for about a week.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.880
And I in the mid in the middle of that, I was going to a conference in Colombia.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:26.640
So I went to my primary doctor and I said, I'm gonna be in a in an eight-hour flight.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.720
I need your help.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:36.079
And the guy said, Well, I'm gonna put these particular injections because I can see those big knots.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:38.880
I said, Oh, great.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.640
Well, he did, and then I said, So how effective are these?
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:49.119
Oh, no, they are very effective, to the tune of 30% success.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:00.640
And I said to my myself, if I say that I have a therapy that is 30% effective, the psychiatrists and medical doctors will kick me out of the room.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.640
So that's another reason why I get engaged in the idea of outcome assessment.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:19.200
Because I realized that we, the mental health providers, are held to a much higher standard than the medical and psychiatric professions, interestingly enough.
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:28.720
When in fact, we are as or more effective for most of the known mental disorders.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.960
So you can imagine analysis of that effectiveness with video support is fantastic.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:45.839
To kind of pivot for a minute, you know, many of our listeners they struggle with uh stakeholder buy-in to acquire some of these video systems.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:54.160
What advice can you give our listeners to to help advocate for video technology investments within their own organizations?
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:14.960
As I mentioned, the the idea of not only because of course improving training and improving um quote unquote um analysis of what the students do and ways to improve and all that is very relevant, but it's very relevant for us professionally.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:28.640
So for a university to invest in providing these platforms, you know, you, in my mind, you should focus on the outcome benefit.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:29.680
Why?
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:48.400
Having this type of possibilities and conducting this type of analysis will give you an opportunity to explain to the stakeholders, the budget managers, the university presidents and provost an understanding of the intrinsic benefit of this.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:34:08.639
Furthermore, what I what I've said to many of my colleagues, I'm a firm advocate of training clinics, but I think we need to transform training clinics into a research apply training clinics.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:20.000
In other words, how do we work not only to provide the services but to determine best and most effective services?
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.079
And we do that by demonstrating outcomes.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.679
So if you can provide that type of data, you have, I believe, a higher likelihood of being supported financially.
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.039
Because again, you know, and also to apply for grants.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.719
I'm not sure that many training clinics will get grants.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:57.840
But an applied research and service, and um training and service will actually have a larger likelihood of being supported by large grants.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:24.079
So my suggestion is demonstrate, use information that provides data, provide examples, and the value is not only educational, but also financial and quote unquote PR, because it allows you, yeah, it allows you to say we have a clinic that serves students in an effective way.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:32.079
You know, you can say that, of course, without uh uh even flinch, but you have to have data to really support that.
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:46.639
If somebody asks me, is the herd clinic effective, I can give you a 30-minute rundown that will actually have you walking out thinking, oh my god, these guys are pretty darn effective.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.119
I'm gonna give you a little tip.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:36:00.639
So the hair clinic is serviced only by students in training.
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:17.679
Every other clinic, for example, the big clinics and universities are clinics managed by certified licensed professionals, and they have some students in training, and they call themselves training clinics sometimes.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:19.119
Well, what do you know?
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:37.199
We are a true training clinic, and so when you look at the outcome average, the overall score of all those clinics, and then you compare that one to ours, we are right there with them.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:44.239
Well, Carlos, before we wrap up our conversation today, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners?
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:54.639
Anything from your very successful career and experience that uh our listeners could really take away and learn from?
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:17.840
From my point of view, the more opportunities we have to review the work we do, the higher the likelihood of success, improvement of techniques, advanced of the profession, publication of outcomes.
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:26.880
So we can even um show what works and for how long.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:37.199
To give you a different example, I manage a biofeedback neurofeedback clinic at a counseling center in Texas.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:45.679
And the question was okay, is biofeedback of any help?
00:37:46.400 --> 00:38:01.519
We study comparing a thousand students using only biofeedback and neurofeedback versus a thousand uh uh students that were similar in terms of race, ethnicity, the level of uh course credits and GPA, etc.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:12.559
And the ones who did the neurofeedback biofeedback graduated in larger numbers.
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:24.800
So retention was accomplished, and graduation, but also with half a GPA point higher than the matching sample.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:34.320
So now you understand that you have a good system in hand that is providing a good service for the students, and you can showcase that.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:45.599
But here is the thing: we went back and analyzed the sample of clients, meaning those who participated, and guess what?
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.159
The ones who participated up to three sessions gained nothing.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:03.840
The ones who participated from 11 to 25 sessions, which was a small number, but still a number, did not make any further improvement.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:14.800
So that shows you the parameters necessary to get the better profit and outcome from this type of intervention.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:25.840
So it gives you a chance to decide when to stop and save a lot of resources.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:56.320
So, yes, the the use of this type of system, making the the analogy work on our perspective, using the recordings to analyze what worked for how long, etc., it gives you not only a chance to improve the quality of service, but also to save resources, find places that need more improvements, and continue doing whatever works well.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.400
I have one last question before um we finally wrapped.
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:10.880
I just wanted to note I was um looking into your biography a little bit, and uh the quote, a motto you have cited is you must lift as you climb.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.679
And I feel like it's a very positive note to end on.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:20.559
Would you explain to us what that means to you and how that is represented in the field of um counseling?
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:38.320
Actually, that motto nobody knows from where it came from, but it was a motto that um was um uh heavily used in at USF, the University of South Florida, but by the Latin or Latinx community.
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:46.159
And of course, I began to use it because this is what happens to me.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.559
Most of us work to achieve personal success.
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:54.159
That's true.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.159
So, what happens when you're gone?
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.199
What's your legacy?
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:09.840
So, the idea of of your success to be your success is a very, very pitiful idea.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:38.239
The idea is that as you progress, you need to help others to achieve similar progress, and you need to collaborate and work with quote unquote different groups, individual groups, and learning societies, and of course, even at a legislative, so you must lift as you climb, is you need to bring with with you those who are coming after you.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:48.559
As my students, a lot of them are now faculty at different programs and all that, and with some of them, we still work together after I don't know how many years.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:03.199
Remember that we have this wonderful captain who ended up landing his airplane in the Hudson River?
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:03.920
Sally.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:12.480
There is a picture of that airplane floating on the river with all the passengers standing on the wing.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.840
And that's exactly my position.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:20.400
I carry a lot of people on my wing.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:21.679
Why?
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:30.239
I think that they are capable, outstanding, able to contribute and construct and build.
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:35.039
Why trying to keep your stuff for yourself?
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.079
So that's the reason why I teach, research, and publish.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:44.159
So I can help others to progress also.
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:46.079
That's very meaningful.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.440
Well, Carlos, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:58.079
I think our listeners just got a ton of expertise that they can take away and really improve their own counseling programs.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.679
If our listeners wanted to get in touch with you, how how can they do that?
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.440
Oh, the easiest way, and and and by today's standard, easy easy.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:18.960
My name, Carlos Salake, followed by 8279 at gmail.com.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.920
Well, thanks so much for your time uh today.
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.039
Again, it's it it's been very meaningful.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.480
Um, we appreciate it, and thank you very much.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.159
Thank you so much, and I really, really love what you do.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.559
Thank you for all your contributions.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:49.920
I know that business proposition are business proposition, but at the same time, you have a business that actually creates many, many opportunities to accomplish several of the goals that I just uh um discussed with you guys.
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:51.920
So, for that, again.
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:57.119
And if you are on the north, stay warm.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.400
Podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzolone and Carmen Hawk, and produced by Kyle Shellstead.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:13.760
Find us online at IPS.com/slash on record and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions.
00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:04.320
Welcome to the OnRecord Podcast.
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:17.199
This is a podcast where we talk with professionals and subject matter experts from diverse markets and disciplines that are using video and audio in innovative ways to support their organization's objectives.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:21.199
My name is Mike Anzelone, and my co-host is Carmen Hawke.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.640
Today, our guest is Carlos Zalaquit.
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:32.799
Carlos is the former professor of educational psychology, counseling, and special education at Penn State University.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:46.079
Carlos is also internationally recognized, is a recognized expert on therapeutic outcomes assessments, mental health, counseling, psychology, biofeedback, and neurofeedback.
00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:48.240
Welcome to the podcast, Carlos.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:48.960
Thank you.
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.520
So good to be with you today.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.200
Yeah, we're really excited to have you on the podcast.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:06.959
And before we kind of hop into the conversation, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and uh your journey um throughout your career and the highlights of what you've been able to accomplish so far?
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:37.439
I have a long story in counseling and psychotherapy, really, because I uh I initially began um as a student of philosophy, and I always saw psychology and counseling as the runaway daughters of the larger discipline, philosophy, until I took some courses, and I got fascinated.
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:48.879
You know, I have a set of instructors and faculty who talk about the mind, the soul, the behavior.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:02:07.200
So I ended up not only learning as much as I could, volunteering to be a TA for their courses, but also training animals in a zoo, you know, training animals in laboratory, using um applications in everyday activities.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.479
It became my passion.
00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:23.199
So all of a sudden, I got a degree uh in psychology in Chile, then I came here to get a master's in clinical psychology, then a doctorate on behavioral neuroscience.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:31.840
Um, and in every step of the way, there were new platforms that opened in front of me.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:43.039
And of course, my practice was very successful, and I have to say, um maybe I should have stayed with that, and now I will be much richer than I am.
00:02:43.120 --> 00:03:02.000
But I decided to go and teach because I thought this type of well of information, possibilities, tentative contributions, reconstructing of a new world couldn't be kept for the few.
00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:10.080
So the idea was not only to go back and teach, supervise, but also to manage and leader organizations.
00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:30.960
In fact, I'm still the president of the Pennsylvania Mental Health Counselors Association, past president of the Sociedad Interamericana de Psychología, and the president-elect for Division 52, which is the Society for Global Psychology of the American Psychological Association.
00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:48.879
So uh in all these platforms, my idea was to find ways to train better and to solve, meaning provide services and interventions with good outcomes.
00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:55.680
And that's what I've been doing for the last, you don't want to know how many years, because there are way too many.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:07.120
One of the things that I did early on, and this will connect with us, was to record with a tape recorder my sessions.
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:39.519
And later on, with a handheld camera, when we have those those cameras coming up, I will record clients, and then we will review those videos together to understand in more depth to dig in about what was happening, what were the possibilities, what were the strengths, and how to integrate them to make a new response for a better outcome.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:54.959
So, as you can imagine, speaking with you all is a blessing because you work on a platform that has helped me accomplish those goals.
00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.800
That part of my history, and why is it that I'm having this conversation with you?
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:11.279
Colonels, can can you share some examples of how you've been able to use video in terms of training your students, the researchers?
00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:12.000
That's incredible.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:48.800
You know, the the hair clinic, and the clinic has every room equipped with video recording systems, and they are all saved into a hub where students, faculty, and uh supervisors can go and visit or revisit the specific sessions.
00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.839
So that became central for supervision.
00:05:54.800 --> 00:06:16.879
Of course, we use it also for training because once you find a way to demonstrate a particular skill, if that is safe, it can be used in your lectures, especially in courses like practicum, supervision, externships, where the students can come back and provide an analysis of what they did.
00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.319
So it's not just a self-reflection based on memory.
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:33.360
They can revisit the session and actually make an even better, quote unquote, self-reflection, a more accurate, you know, um analysis of what they did.
00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:48.480
And then we come in, supervisors, to watch the session and then watch the session with the student, highlighting the strength and competences and also bringing to the forefront areas for further improvement.
00:06:48.639 --> 00:07:02.639
So I used those videos in class and with my students, but always remember with all ethical and consent from the client.
00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.079
The clients know that this is a training clinic.
00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:14.399
And so that gives us the faculty and the student the possibility of really revise.
00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:21.680
Now, the second major application was to review the sessions to analyze what changes.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:27.600
What happened from session one to the final session?
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.079
How does the client look like?
00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:37.920
And have a chance to assess outcome, which is one of my current um main projects.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:44.319
And in fact, we were able to accomplish that in situations that were quite interesting.
00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:50.399
For example, one of my colleagues said to me, We have a counselor with an accent.
00:07:51.680 --> 00:08:00.639
I'm sorry, uh you are telling me, which is uh I'm a faculty with an accent, and I don't think that the student is doing well, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:02.959
I think that the student needs to be removed.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.959
And you go, wait a minute, it's an international student.
00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.560
Uh isn't that a little bit drastic?
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.399
So I said, you know, why don't you build the case?
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:21.920
I will look into the situation and I will get back to you or with you, and then we can discuss options.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.399
So what I did is I went to with Bob.
00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:32.000
I went to the recording, and I realized that this student happens to have a large number of clients.
00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.399
They all kept coming.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:47.519
Decisions seemed to be constructive, and when I look at the self-report of the client, they were responding in a way that demonstrated that they were improving.
00:08:48.480 --> 00:09:04.879
So I sat down with my colleague and I said, you know, I really uh um value your concern, but I have to say this: I don't have a way to support any actions because here is the data.
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:11.759
Well, you wouldn't be able to do that if you don't have all these recordings, so that's another way.
00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:25.519
So supervision, training of skills, supporting case work, and also supporting research.
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:30.879
So I I have taken big advantage of your system.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.320
That can I say?
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.320
Can I just say, Carlos, that you are very passionate?
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:37.440
It comes right through the screen.
00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:42.720
I can feel how much that teaching and also continuing your own education, how much it means to you.
00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:54.960
I'm curious, you mentioned the early adoption you had with a handheld video recorder and reviewing those tapes versus now having a different system using the Vault system, for example.
00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:02.480
Can you tell us the difference and the feedback you received from clients or those you were supervising then versus now?
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:04.639
Is it much more commonplace?
00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.600
I'm just curious to hear how that evolution looked.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:21.120
Great question, because this is this is not a big evolution in a number of ways, but I have to tell you, those were big recording machines that you that you needed to hold on your shoulder.
00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:25.679
Today, we have a camera on a corner of the room.
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.840
Second, you know, those tapes not always worked.
00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.639
So even though you did the recording, that didn't mean that you will be able to see them again.
00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:43.759
And to watch them, you needed to have this huge match hand with those big BHSA tapes.
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:51.600
And so it was pretty innovative, but pretty overwhelming.
00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:57.919
Plus, you messed up in terms of capturing a lot of the things that you were recording.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:09.279
In other words, you were in the session, but your attention that should always be on the client was split between the camera and whatever the client was saying.
00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:19.679
So without having all that equipment that was manualized, you can have this automated system.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.639
You can go have the session in the best possible way without distracting yourself with all the mechanics of this.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:37.840
And at the end of the session, you can actually say, Would you like to review a moment that I and just click on the laptop, show the person the connection and all that?
00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.200
Now, how is that for magic?
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.240
Some kids will never know the magic of VHS to digital.
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.360
It's some someone, some people will never know.
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:59.360
You guys are too young, but I can tell you, my wife, I I have changed countries and states more times than you will ever know.
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:06.960
And at the end of the day, she will say, Wait, are you still carrying those boxes with those big tapes?
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:07.919
Vintage.
00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.799
When do you have time to watch them?
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.120
And I'm going, these are my treasure.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:14.799
At some point I will sit down.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.080
So it be they became a heavy burden.
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:31.039
Your system allowed this to be stored and be accessed in an ethical and appropriate way, you know, from any point in the world, if you have the secure platform to do that.
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:34.639
What can be more exciting than that?
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:41.200
So all of a sudden, you can revisit the sessions with the client in place.
00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.919
One of my clients said to me once, I did tell you that, blah, blah, blah.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.279
And I said, I don't, I don't have any recollection.
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:58.639
Let's go back to the session and check to see, because I'm really concerned that I truly let you down.
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.480
And I want to learn where did I miss this?
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:06.080
Well, we couldn't find it in the session.
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.840
So the client deeply apologized and said, Oh, yeah, I I I was sure.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.960
I was convinced that I mentioned this to you.
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.240
And I said, I know it was important to you.
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:19.440
It would have been great.
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:24.480
Because I would have done something about that to fulfill your request.
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.639
The opposite happens also.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.799
That a client will come and say, you know, last session was outstanding.
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:38.720
I woke out of that session and I went straight to my partner, you know, and we sat down and ironed out all.
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:46.320
I I wouldn't be able to do it unless you you you say what you said.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:50.879
What in the world did I say?
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.080
What was the critical, the triggering point?
00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:02.000
So I can go back to the session and review to say where the magic happened.
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:08.960
So that has made my my own training, you know, much, much better.
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:25.840
Because I can go back and revisit things that worked and understand why they did, and things that didn't work, make amends and go back at it again to regain training on those dimensions.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.720
So it's it's it's a it's a very constructive situation.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.879
I'm sorry for the number of examples, but I can give you a bunch of them.
00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.879
I feel like my job is threatened right now.
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:38.159
You're very good, thus, Carlos.
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:39.360
You're extraordinary.
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:51.120
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, Carlos, in your description of the work that you've done with video, you've kind of implied that you've used video for both qualitative and quantitative kind of research.
00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:57.200
Do you feel that video can support either one of those methodologies?
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:03.200
Do you have a preference of how you use video to support data collection and research?
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:03.840
Oh, yeah.
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.000
What a great question.
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:30.879
And and I I'm gonna I'm gonna try to restrain myself because from a qualitative point of view, you know, you can analyze every session to understand what were the quote unquote themes and how those themes evolve over time or over sessions, in all within the session.
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:44.080
And then you can also focus on a particular person and analyze that from a qualitative point of view to understand how change happens.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:57.519
Or in my case, since I am a developmental counseling therapist and also a micro-skilled um therapist, in addition to many other denominations, because I don't believe in a single therapy model.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:16.799
And so I can analyze how the micro-skills, you know, uh work out on a successful session versus a non-successful session and understand why, which ones, etc., in a qualitative way.
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:24.080
But I can also multiply that by a number of clients, a number of sessions, et cetera, and do quantitative work.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:31.039
In fact, we use a system connected to yours, which is the self-report of the client.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:40.000
And we have looked at the self-report of the client to find out is there a real change from beginning to end?
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:42.399
And what do you know?
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:55.440
My research with my team not only shows that there is change, but it shows that the change is clinically significant.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:13.920
Because if you are a smoker and you go to my um smoke cessation treatment, and you come back at the end and you say, you know, I used to smoke 30 cigarettes a day, now I'm down to three, that will be statistically significant.
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:20.720
But you are still at risk of the negative effect of nicotine because you're still smoking.
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:27.839
And so change, statistically significant change is not always clinically significant.
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:29.599
That's an interesting point.
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.559
And then you can certainly uh analyze that.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:51.680
So my students are doing great, not only, I should say, our students are doing great, not only they promote change and in a significant clinical, significant way, but also we did a comparison between international and national students.
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:53.440
And guess what?
00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.880
Both groups have the same rate of success.
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:03.359
But here is what we found that can change a little bit the landscape of what we do.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:18.559
Yes, they were all successful, but some were more successful in improving clients' anxiety collaboratively than depression, and vice versa.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:27.839
So we figure this gives us an opportunity by the end to say to the student, you are doing very well with this type of disorders.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:32.240
Maybe you need to sharpen your skills for this other type.
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:37.119
Or you can specialize in what you are already doing quite well.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:58.319
But also qualitative gave us a chance to look at the tapes and understand that we can use these sessions, analyze them, and by mid-semester say to our trainees, our students in training, you know, you are doing quite well, but here are areas of improvement.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.839
We still have the other half of the semester to make improvement.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:15.440
So it's not to chanticize or um criticize, but to find ways to get more rounded and competent students.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:20.480
So qualitative and quantitative pan out quite well in this process.
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:31.200
You mentioned that you kind of started with that 100-pound shoulder webcam, and now you know webcam.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:33.759
Those were real cams.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.319
That's right.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.400
Vintage real cam.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:39.680
Vintage cam.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.599
Yeah, you know, having these high def cameras mounted in the rooms.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:59.920
During that evolution as technology has improved, what challenges have you come across, yourself, your supervisors, your students, in terms of adapting to the new technology that is available?
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.240
Oh, that's a great question.
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:09.119
And it's the number one reason of concern and my major complaint.
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:19.200
Not all of our students, faculties, supervisors, and professionals are on board.
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.279
In fact, there are many different reasons for that.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:32.400
On the one hand, you have what we call stage fright, isn't it, when you are afraid of seeing yourself in a recording.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:21:11.519
Number two, the issues of quote unquote using these type of recordings to instead of um apply them in a constructive educational way, to use them to attack or um criticize, you know, uh performance, or as a way to document, you know, um negative issues, or which is another major thing, you know, the issue of freedom.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:13.440
I don't like to be taped.
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:17.759
I don't want to be in a training place where taping takes place.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.200
Well, I think that that's terrible.
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.960
Because you are missing a tremendous opportunity.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:30.160
None of these systems are intended to be uh punishing.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:36.240
Uh, and quite the contrary, they are supposed to be used in a constructive way.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.880
And so, yeah, not everybody's on board.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:57.759
And I have to say, I'll be happy to sit down with anybody who disagrees and share with them the amount of information we have that demonstrate how relevant using of these systems is.
00:21:58.160 --> 00:21:59.440
You mentioned ethical.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:18.559
Capture and in the essence of uh doing things um with protections in place and standards in place so that you can build a comfort with people who might be resistant to the adoption of video or having a recorder or recording of themselves.
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:24.559
Um would you describe a little bit more about I know the environment and the framework of the recording system you're using provides that.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.640
Is there anything else you put into place?
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:34.880
Any other um areas that you lean into when you're maybe making a persuasive argument for video capture?
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:46.000
Well, let me um, for the sake of time, let me remind all of us that telehealth happens to have a number of constraints.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:23:19.200
You know, from quote unquote um confirming who's the person uh participating and making sure that is the client, second, in an environment with no disruptions and with no uh witnesses or intruders, third, with clear transcription and encoding that allows for the protected transfer of that information so only people with the specific um uh software could see those tapes.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:24.240
And third, with clear agreement from the client.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:30.079
So when I say use video recording, I'm not saying use it in a dictatorial way.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:43.759
Of course, there are clients that may have a higher level of suspiciousness, or they may have uh some sort of concerns about being observed.
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:47.599
It's called paranoia.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:57.279
And so uh in those cases, you will have to have a conversation with that person and over time hopefully bring them to understand of the benefits and agree to use them.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:17.680
So if you use it with clinical considerations for the best benefit of the client, making sure that these are secure platforms and making sure that the client agrees and you comply with any other, for example, HIPAA regulations, you know, the systems are pretty safe, and I believe yours are.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.640
I've never saw a break in the system, and we have used the system for a long time.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:30.640
Carlos, what do you think is the future of using video, particularly in your field of clinical psychology?
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:44.079
Yeah, I actually let me remind you, I I am blessed enough to be on the platform of clinical psychology, counseling psychology, and also mental health and counseling, mental health and clinical counseling.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:52.559
The reason I say that is because different than others who keep turf, I really try to integrate all these fields.
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:59.599
The demand of mental health is so large that there isn't enough of us to cover.
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:13.440
So this idea of only we can do this, you don't, you can't, only creates an opportunity for many people missing access to mental health services.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.960
Now, what's the future of video recording?
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.200
I think that it will become larger and larger.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.480
Let me um explain this to you.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.559
So one day I needed to use a recording.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:46.880
You know, not from your platform, a recording that a um colleague of mine sent me of a mock interview with one of their colleagues, and they wanted to know if it was good enough as a demonstration of the micro skills.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:51.359
And of course they sent it to me because I'm supposed to be one of the airpacks on microskills.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.119
And what do you know?
00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:04.160
I opened the video and I just couldn't get the sound because it was too loud, uh low.
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.240
And so I put transcript.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:26.799
And the silly system did transcript in a beautiful way, and so I I contacted one of my techs, and they said, Hey, listen, get word to do a transcript of the of the session, and I'm going, what word has to do with this?
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:28.559
Well, what do you know?
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.440
He did a better job once I learned how to use it.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:33.440
The transcript was great.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:35.119
Now think about this.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.000
Now we have all these AI systems.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:58.319
So as you think about this, if I'm having a lot of time invested on analyzing, uh producing papers, demonstrating what the students can accomplish and all that, guess what?
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:04.640
That will be sped up to an exponential of n.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:12.720
Because all the systems can do those types of analysis, transcription and analysis in fractions of a second.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:25.440
I have a colleague in Germany that developed a software now that you can use to study interaction between the non-verbal, interaction between the counselor and the client.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:40.720
And they are able to demonstrate that synchrony of movement over the length of a session predicts better rating, better outcome of that very same session.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:47.200
And if you repeat the analysis over time, that same relationship remains.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.960
Isn't that fascinating?
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:55.359
So the future, I believe, is for companies like yours.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:01.599
Because in order to apply all of these platforms, we need to have the recording.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.440
Was that research in Germany?
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.240
Is that a sequential lag analysis?
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.960
We have a lot of different models.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:28.640
Um we use multilinear um regression analysis, which is a new system, well, not a new from 2015, but it has the flexible because the major thing about what we do is that it's very subjective.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:36.319
And so when people say, when you are saying that you are effective, let me tell you the reason why we believe you are not.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:44.480
Or let me tell you why we cannot believe you because the system of analysis is flawed in a number of ways.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:29:16.640
We have a historical event in psychology where a British guy came to the United States, Hans Heisenck, and um did an analysis of psychotherapy effectiveness and reached the conclusion that this new discipline, you know, that was offering major success and major treatment for pretty much everything that was affecting anybody, actually, guess what?
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:19.359
Did not work.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:32.559
Not only that, he was as brave as to say, and for some therapies, I'm not gonna say because I don't want to get in trouble, uh, for some therapies, actually, the client got worse.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:39.119
You know the the the the reaction to all that?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:52.799
He he went back to England and only came back to the United States to an event on his uh behalf, like uh please forgive us for everything we said about you.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:30:04.079
And um, but he was a statistician and was able to demonstrate that what was demonstrated as effective was based on a flaw analysis.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:33.839
And so since then, we had been the most harsh critics of what we do, and I'm gonna tell you every time anybody came up with a successful therapy, somebody will show up and take them down for one reason or another, until these new systems of analysis came on, and all of a sudden a new perspective came up.
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:50.640
And I have to say this research today shows that we are effective to the tune of 60 to 80 percent across disorders and across therapies.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.960
The majority of the therapies happen to have some degree of effectiveness.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:04.319
I went to see a physician because I uh you know I moved to Pennsylvania, I didn't shovel the snow the first day.
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.799
So by the third day I went out to shovel, it was icy on the bottom.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.839
I just cracked the ice and shoveled out.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.880
I couldn't move my arm for about a week.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.880
And I in the mid in the middle of that, I was going to a conference in Colombia.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:26.640
So I went to my primary doctor and I said, I'm gonna be in a in an eight-hour flight.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.720
I need your help.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:36.079
And the guy said, Well, I'm gonna put these particular injections because I can see those big knots.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:38.880
I said, Oh, great.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.640
Well, he did, and then I said, So how effective are these?
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:49.119
Oh, no, they are very effective, to the tune of 30% success.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:00.640
And I said to my myself, if I say that I have a therapy that is 30% effective, the psychiatrists and medical doctors will kick me out of the room.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.640
So that's another reason why I get engaged in the idea of outcome assessment.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:19.200
Because I realized that we, the mental health providers, are held to a much higher standard than the medical and psychiatric professions, interestingly enough.
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:28.720
When in fact, we are as or more effective for most of the known mental disorders.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.960
So you can imagine analysis of that effectiveness with video support is fantastic.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:45.839
To kind of pivot for a minute, you know, many of our listeners they struggle with uh stakeholder buy-in to acquire some of these video systems.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:54.160
What advice can you give our listeners to to help advocate for video technology investments within their own organizations?
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:14.960
As I mentioned, the the idea of not only because of course improving training and improving um quote unquote um analysis of what the students do and ways to improve and all that is very relevant, but it's very relevant for us professionally.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:28.640
So for a university to invest in providing these platforms, you know, you, in my mind, you should focus on the outcome benefit.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:29.680
Why?
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:48.400
Having this type of possibilities and conducting this type of analysis will give you an opportunity to explain to the stakeholders, the budget managers, the university presidents and provost an understanding of the intrinsic benefit of this.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:34:08.639
Furthermore, what I what I've said to many of my colleagues, I'm a firm advocate of training clinics, but I think we need to transform training clinics into a research apply training clinics.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:20.000
In other words, how do we work not only to provide the services but to determine best and most effective services?
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.079
And we do that by demonstrating outcomes.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.679
So if you can provide that type of data, you have, I believe, a higher likelihood of being supported financially.
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.039
Because again, you know, and also to apply for grants.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.719
I'm not sure that many training clinics will get grants.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:57.840
But an applied research and service, and um training and service will actually have a larger likelihood of being supported by large grants.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:24.079
So my suggestion is demonstrate, use information that provides data, provide examples, and the value is not only educational, but also financial and quote unquote PR, because it allows you, yeah, it allows you to say we have a clinic that serves students in an effective way.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:32.079
You know, you can say that, of course, without uh uh even flinch, but you have to have data to really support that.
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:46.639
If somebody asks me, is the herd clinic effective, I can give you a 30-minute rundown that will actually have you walking out thinking, oh my god, these guys are pretty darn effective.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.119
I'm gonna give you a little tip.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:36:00.639
So the hair clinic is serviced only by students in training.
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:17.679
Every other clinic, for example, the big clinics and universities are clinics managed by certified licensed professionals, and they have some students in training, and they call themselves training clinics sometimes.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:19.119
Well, what do you know?
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:37.199
We are a true training clinic, and so when you look at the outcome average, the overall score of all those clinics, and then you compare that one to ours, we are right there with them.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:44.239
Well, Carlos, before we wrap up our conversation today, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners?
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:54.639
Anything from your very successful career and experience that uh our listeners could really take away and learn from?
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:17.840
From my point of view, the more opportunities we have to review the work we do, the higher the likelihood of success, improvement of techniques, advanced of the profession, publication of outcomes.
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:26.880
So we can even um show what works and for how long.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:37.199
To give you a different example, I manage a biofeedback neurofeedback clinic at a counseling center in Texas.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:45.679
And the question was okay, is biofeedback of any help?
00:37:46.400 --> 00:38:01.519
We study comparing a thousand students using only biofeedback and neurofeedback versus a thousand uh uh students that were similar in terms of race, ethnicity, the level of uh course credits and GPA, etc.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:12.559
And the ones who did the neurofeedback biofeedback graduated in larger numbers.
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:24.800
So retention was accomplished, and graduation, but also with half a GPA point higher than the matching sample.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:34.320
So now you understand that you have a good system in hand that is providing a good service for the students, and you can showcase that.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:45.599
But here is the thing: we went back and analyzed the sample of clients, meaning those who participated, and guess what?
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.159
The ones who participated up to three sessions gained nothing.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:03.840
The ones who participated from 11 to 25 sessions, which was a small number, but still a number, did not make any further improvement.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:14.800
So that shows you the parameters necessary to get the better profit and outcome from this type of intervention.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:25.840
So it gives you a chance to decide when to stop and save a lot of resources.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:56.320
So, yes, the the use of this type of system, making the the analogy work on our perspective, using the recordings to analyze what worked for how long, etc., it gives you not only a chance to improve the quality of service, but also to save resources, find places that need more improvements, and continue doing whatever works well.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.400
I have one last question before um we finally wrapped.
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:10.880
I just wanted to note I was um looking into your biography a little bit, and uh the quote, a motto you have cited is you must lift as you climb.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.679
And I feel like it's a very positive note to end on.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:20.559
Would you explain to us what that means to you and how that is represented in the field of um counseling?
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:38.320
Actually, that motto nobody knows from where it came from, but it was a motto that um was um uh heavily used in at USF, the University of South Florida, but by the Latin or Latinx community.
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:46.159
And of course, I began to use it because this is what happens to me.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.559
Most of us work to achieve personal success.
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:54.159
That's true.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.159
So, what happens when you're gone?
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.199
What's your legacy?
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:09.840
So, the idea of of your success to be your success is a very, very pitiful idea.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:38.239
The idea is that as you progress, you need to help others to achieve similar progress, and you need to collaborate and work with quote unquote different groups, individual groups, and learning societies, and of course, even at a legislative, so you must lift as you climb, is you need to bring with with you those who are coming after you.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:48.559
As my students, a lot of them are now faculty at different programs and all that, and with some of them, we still work together after I don't know how many years.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:03.199
Remember that we have this wonderful captain who ended up landing his airplane in the Hudson River?
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:03.920
Sally.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:12.480
There is a picture of that airplane floating on the river with all the passengers standing on the wing.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.840
And that's exactly my position.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:20.400
I carry a lot of people on my wing.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:21.679
Why?
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:30.239
I think that they are capable, outstanding, able to contribute and construct and build.
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:35.039
Why trying to keep your stuff for yourself?
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.079
So that's the reason why I teach, research, and publish.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:44.159
So I can help others to progress also.
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:46.079
That's very meaningful.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.440
Well, Carlos, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:58.079
I think our listeners just got a ton of expertise that they can take away and really improve their own counseling programs.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.679
If our listeners wanted to get in touch with you, how how can they do that?
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.440
Oh, the easiest way, and and and by today's standard, easy easy.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:18.960
My name, Carlos Salake, followed by 8279 at gmail.com.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.920
Well, thanks so much for your time uh today.
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.039
Again, it's it it's been very meaningful.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.480
Um, we appreciate it, and thank you very much.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.159
Thank you so much, and I really, really love what you do.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.559
Thank you for all your contributions.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:49.920
I know that business proposition are business proposition, but at the same time, you have a business that actually creates many, many opportunities to accomplish several of the goals that I just uh um discussed with you guys.
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:51.920
So, for that, again.
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:57.119
And if you are on the north, stay warm.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.400
Podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzolone and Carmen Hawk, and produced by Kyle Shellstead.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:13.760
Find us online at IPS.com/slash on record and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions.
