165: Disappearance in Devil's Punchbowl

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On June 11, 1998, a man drove his truck into
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the Devil's Punchbowl parking lot. He locked the doors, grabbed
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his daypack, and hit the trail. But Deputy Jonathan O.J.
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would never return. I'm Danielle. I'm Megan. And this is
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Off the Trails. This is another one that I was
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afraid that we had already covered it. Did we cover it?
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You're like nodding like... Oh, I was like, and have we?
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No.
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I don't know. Did you check? I did check. I
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checked multiple times. For whatever reason, there'll just be a
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particular case that I swear we covered this. And I
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will look a hundred times, search for it, and it's
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not there. But I still don't trust myself. Yeah. I
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don't know why. That's fair, though.
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I do feel like I did a double take when
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I saw the title on the drive. I don't look
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at your papers prior to recording, but I obviously can
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see the episode title once it's posted. And it did,
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I did do like a little double take because we
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have done the devilish places episode for something scary.
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So I think that's- And maybe that's what I was
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thinking too.
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Yeah.
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And if we're wrong and you guys are like, you
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have covered this before, just let us know.
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Just let us know. And maybe this is just a-
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new take on it. Also, yeah, sorry, this episode is
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a couple days late. Labor Day really kind of like
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threw off the entire concept of a calendar this week.
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So Danielle texted me like.
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I think Wednesday, Wednesday, like, I forgot. I forgot what
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day it was. Well, then like, originally, I was supposed
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to be off on Tuesday, because I had scheduled my
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physical on at like 8.30. And I was like, I'll
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just take the day off because the kids will be
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back in school. I'll have my appointment and have a
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day to myself. And I was like, yeah. Okay. Turns
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out there was no school on Tuesday because of primary
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in New Hampshire. And then at 7am, I got a
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text from my doctor's office saying, bitch, your appointment is canceled.
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And then I just felt all confused. I was like, well,
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I guess I'm going to work half a day So
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I worked half a day from home, but then I
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had no idea what day it was anymore because. Yeah,
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it happens. So, so here you go. You know, better
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late than never, as they say. Yes, as we say.
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As we say.
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Yes. So happy, if you're listening to this when it's released,
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happy Friday. Are you releasing at midnight or just tonight?
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Just calling it tonight?
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Oh, we'll see what happens.
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Okay.
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All right, so before he was a deputy with the
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LA County Sheriff's Department, Jonathan was a U.S. Army Special
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Forces paratrooper. I always feel like the Army titles are
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so long, and I'm glad I don't have to put
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that on a business card. Yeah, but do people even
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use business cards anymore? Probably not. And probably if you're
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in the Army, you probably also probably don't have a
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business card for that type of position.
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I was going to say definitely there are certain jobs,
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certain military jobs that I think they don't really love
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to advertise that that's what they do.
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But like as you're jumping out of the plane, you're like,
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call me, here's my business info.
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That's definitely part of the jump process.
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Yes, I'm sure. So he did not have a business
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card and he had been with the sheriff's department for Since, okay,
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not since 1998 because we are in 1998. So in 1998,
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he had been with the Sheriff's Department for about 15
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years already. Okay. So I think it's kind of a
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little bit of a case of you can take the
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man out of the army, but you can't take the
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army out of the man because he very much still had,
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like you could look at him and be like, you
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know what? That guy is probably in the military or
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former military. He still had the standard haircut and he
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would take care of his uniform meticulously and shine his
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shoes and badge. He also had several army related tattoos.
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So very much that was his part of his personality
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was his time in the army. Okay. So with the
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sheriff's department, he was a canine handler and he had
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a very strong bond with his dog Bosco. That is
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so cute. It is. He was also a big runner,
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and he had completed several ultramarathons. Ultramarathons are 50 miles
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or 80 kilometers. I don't know how that's possible. I mean,
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I would die.
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Yeah, that sentence just, like, doesn't compute.
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I just wonder who the first person to be like,
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you know what? A marathon is not enough. Let's max
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out running and do an ultramarathon. Mm-hmm. John and his wife, Deborah,
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had been married about 12 years and the couple had
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a five-year-old daughter. But in the spring of this year,
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the marriage had been, well, probably even longer than the spring,
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had been deteriorating. And that spring, John had said that
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he wanted a divorce. It also sounds like he had
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started looking at real estate in Alaska. So it sounds
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like he was definitely looking for a very different direction
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for his life. I can get behind that.
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I have over the years looked at properties in Alaska specifically,
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and I'm like, just what's stopping me?
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And then probably having to charter a plane to get groceries.
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That could be part of what's stopping you.
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Yeah. And probably all the cold and the like 30
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days of night.
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Oh yeah. You don't like dark or cold. That's a problem.
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I could be an Alaskan snowbird. Go there for their
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one week of summer. Exactly. Feels like a solid, solid investment. Yeah,
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I think we just call that vacationing, but that's okay. Touche.
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So apparently he was cool with the cold and the
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dark because he had been looking at properties. He had
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actually been offered a new position in the... same department
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as a firearms instructor. But on June 11th, he actually,
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I don't know why 11th is so difficult to say.
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It's really kicking your ass on this one. I guess.
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He actually turned down that job saying that he just
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wanted to remain in his current position, which makes sense
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if he is considering leaving the state. He would obviously
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be leaving his job. And like, why would you accept
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a new position if you're really like, I'm not sticking around.
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After that conversation, he jumped in his truck and arrived
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at the Devil's Punchbowl just before noon. Before leaving, I'm
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actually not sure if it was before leaving the house
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or before leaving for his hike, he did speak with
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Debra where he said he was going. Obviously, he told
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her where he was going and then said he'd be
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home before dark. They were headed for divorce, but they
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were still living together. Okay.
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And that also just answered a question that I was
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just going to ask, which is how far was this
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hike from where he was living? So if it was
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just a day trip, it would have been probably pretty
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local to them. Yes.
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Yeah.
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It's pretty close. He went to this area like once
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a week. Okay. For running, hiking, whatever. So pretty close.
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Devil's Punchbowl Natural Area is about 60 miles northeast of
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Los Angeles. And this is where the Mojave Desert meets
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with the northern slopes of the San Gabriel Mountains. And
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the name of the area comes from the deep bowl
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shape that has been created in the sandstone from years
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of erosion. And it's also right on some fault lines.
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So I think some earthquake activity has also impacted the
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landscape there. From the main parking lot and the visitor centers,
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you can pick up a number of trails and many
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of them head towards the 9,400 foot summit of Mount
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Baden Powell. And that's 20 miles, 20 miles from the
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parking lot. So I think for John, because he was
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running these trails, Yeah, that can be a day trip,
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but for a lot of other people that are just
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going at two miles an hour at a nice slow pace,
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that's not a fun one day. No, you're taking a
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week off. Right. The landscaping areas can be pretty rugged
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and remote. There's a lot of sheer drop-offs. There's loose
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rock and some of those slot canyons that can be
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pretty dangerous. Another danger in this area, particularly... in the
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90s was that this stretch of area in the Antelope
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Valley had a much darker reputation. It was a high
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traffic area for drug trafficking and gangs and other criminal activity.
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So on this day, he was dressed in a white
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t-shirt running shoes, sunglasses, and a blue and white baseball hat.
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One of the missing persons posters noted both running shorts
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and green fatigue pants, which I thought was strange.
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Maybe.
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Even if you're wearing both, someone's not seeing both. Unless
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you're wearing shorts on the outside of your pants. Yes,
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maybe that.
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But maybe he was known to bring both and potentially
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change out of one into the other or vice versa
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throughout a longer trail, hike, or run.
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Yeah. My other thought is perhaps, like to your point,
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he left in one... apparel item. And that was what
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Debra had seen him in. And then, as we'll talk
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about later, there were some witnesses that saw him there.
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So maybe someone else was like, oh, this is what
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he was wearing for shorts. Yeah, absolutely. He tossed one
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of those solar shades on his dashboard. He grabbed his daypack,
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locked the truck, and presumably set off for the trail.
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He had hiked or ran these trails a plenty of times.
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Like I said, he went there typically like once a week,
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so he was very familiar and comfortable in the area.
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He liked to do a big loop that would take
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him through different types of terrain, so he could kind
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of get in the desert area, the more rugged areas.
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He had a particular loop that he did when he
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was there. Not long into his run, John encountered students
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and a teacher on a field trip. He ended up
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stopping and briefly chatting with them because he had actually
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gone into this school before with his canine. I don't
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know if he'd done a presentation or what, but he
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kind of knew this class. And then he did mention
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in that conversation that he was headed towards the summit.
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Darkness fell and John never called or returned home. Deborah
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reported him missing about 11 that night, and a search
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did get underway pretty quickly. A couple deputies did go
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out to the area that night. They found his truck
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in the parking lot, the trailhead, and they did, what
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do they call it, a hasty search, basically where a
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couple people go out, do the initial search, and obviously
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nothing was turned up. Clearly by 11 o'clock, it's very dark,
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so your search options are pretty limited. But the following morning,
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a full search would get underway. John was well-trained in
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survival techniques and was considered to be in good health.
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So on one hand, that was reassuring that he was
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going to be okay through the night. But on the
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other hand, it was concerning because it meant that something
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serious enough had happened that he wasn't able to self-rescue.
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At first light, search and rescue crews were on scene
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and they brought tracking dogs, helicopters, and there were dozens
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of people on the ground. Authorities also asked if anyone
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was in the area that day and if they had
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any information to please reach out. And several witnesses did
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come forward. The teacher obviously shared their encounter. Other witnesses
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reached out saying they'd seen him just running the trail.
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Another said that they had seen him in the picnic area.
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And one of the eyewitness reports placed him running along
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the trail as late as 6 p.m. For six days,
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they searched, and the only thing they found were some
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snow prints. Snow prints. Footprints in the snow. I guess
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that's snow prints, right? Yeah, I like it.
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That.
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They couldn't identify as being Johns, but that's really kind
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of the only thing that they found, which, again, if
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you don't know who it belongs to, they're not helpful.
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Despite having a general idea of where he was going,
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his friends, he had people he would run with. So
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other people had run this loop with him before, so.
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They kind of knew where he typically went. They knew
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what time he got there. And there were several eyewitness
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statements that kind of built a timeline. But despite having
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all that, it still was like he had just disappeared.
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And in disappearances like that, theories tend to start flying
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pretty quickly. The first most straightforward theory was that an
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accident happened. The punch bowl is rugged. The terrain is remote.
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And it doesn't matter how experienced you are. Any one
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of us can just trip and fall. It's not like
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if you're skilled, you're never going to stumble. So anything
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can happen to anybody. And in this area, if someone
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fell into a deep slot canyon, It's very possible that
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no one would spot them, potentially ever.
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Yeah.
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So the most straightforward theory is that he somehow just
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took a wrong step and fell somewhere that searchers were
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just not able to see him. Another fairly straightforward, but
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I don't feel... plausible theory is that this was all
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a setup and he went off to start a new
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life but there wasn't anything to indicate that it was
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even a vague possibility in my opinion and it sounds
249
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like he was already making changes in his life so
250
00:16:12.389 --> 00:16:14.429
I don't know like if you're already planning to get
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a divorce and move why don't you just follow through
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with that standard process and not fake a disappearance or
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your death.
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00:16:25.169 --> 00:16:27.049
Yeah. It's not like he was in a position where
255
00:16:27.070 --> 00:16:30.009
he wanted to leave his wife but didn't know how
256
00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:31.909
to approach it with her. So he's like, well, if
257
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I pretend to die, maybe this is a better solution.
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They already knew, like there were already circumstances that both
259
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.620
parties were aware of and there was no reason for
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him to go to some extreme length to just start over. Right.
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And I had seen a comment on a forum where
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somebody was backing up this theory and they were like, well,
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he probably didn't want to lose half his stuff to
264
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his ex-wife. But this person didn't take into account the
265
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fact that, okay, but if you disappear and fake your death,
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you're not accessing your money. You're not accessing your assets.
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You're not living in your house. So you have 0%
268
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of your stuff as opposed to 50%. Right, yeah. Not
269
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much thought into that one. Yeah, that person didn't think
270
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about it at all, I think. That theory doesn't really
271
00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:36.410
make any sense. Now come the other much messier theories.
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This next theory is suicide. And this was a theory
273
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that authorities leaned into at the end of the search.
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They kind of concluded that this was a case where
275
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he had gone out there intentionally and planned to not return.
276
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They pointed to a troubled marriage, the impending divorce, and
277
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:09.559
pointed at his looking into moving to an unreachable location
278
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as evidence for this theory. To me, Alaska would fit
279
00:18:16.029 --> 00:18:18.710
the bill for moving somewhere unreachable. If you're trying to
280
00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:24.299
get away, that doesn't necessarily mean you want to leave Earth.
281
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You may just want to move. Crazy concept.
282
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I know.
283
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I know. Essentially, this theory is just that he went
284
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out into the desert and took his life, and then
285
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his body was hidden by the terrain, whether that was
286
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part of his plan or not. You know, obviously, this
287
00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:48.619
is a theory. We have no way of knowing. But
288
00:18:49.539 --> 00:18:54.480
people close to him rejected this idea completely. His brother
289
00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:57.559
and nephew said publicly that there was no way that
290
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.000
they believed he would have taken his own life. Friends
291
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.799
agreed that suicide didn't fit John. He was a very
292
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.460
serious individual and took his job seriously. But he still
293
00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:13.059
had an excitement for life.
294
00:19:12.849 --> 00:19:15.319
And he Well, he was planning his next chapter.
295
00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:18.980
Like, yes, this is a very sad and.
296
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Heavy and just emotional chapter that's closing. Of course, no
297
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.710
one gets married hoping or thinking that it's going to end.
298
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But it does sometimes. More often than not, that's unfortunately
299
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the outcome. And but it seems like it doesn't seem
300
00:19:38.619 --> 00:19:40.480
like they were on bad terms.
301
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.220
And right, were they? I don't know. I mean, it
302
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.930
didn't it didn't sound good, but. Well, not like they
303
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were not.
304
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Extreme terms with the like bad terms with each other
305
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I mean obviously you're not like it's it's I feel
306
00:19:55.670 --> 00:20:00.170
like it's obviously uncommon when you're pleasant around each other.
307
00:20:00.049 --> 00:20:03.730
But maybe like not not thrilled with each other but
308
00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:07.039
if you were having a good time hanging out with
309
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that person you probably would be getting a divorce Right.
310
00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:13.039
But some people can just neutrally coexist.
311
00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:18.720
Yes. You know, and I think if there were more
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00:20:18.819 --> 00:20:23.660
concerns about the state of of them during this ending
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of their marriage, I feel like that maybe would have
314
00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:29.750
come to light. Like if there was like really concerning
315
00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:31.710
things happening, like, yeah, should.
316
00:20:31.529 --> 00:20:35.569
They still be should they still be like cohabitating if,
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you know, all that aside, he's finding a place in Alaska,
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00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:44.259
like again, kind of trying to look at how he
319
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:47.960
can optimize this next chapter for himself.
320
00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:55.029
And in optimizing that future and planning for his next
321
00:20:55.190 --> 00:21:02.970
phase of life, his friends did note that he had
322
00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:06.849
like the very, very beginnings of a new relationship. It
323
00:21:06.869 --> 00:21:10.000
sounds like I don't know what you call like the
324
00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:15.200
talking stage. Like there wasn't any like physical relationship, it
325
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.519
sounds like. But, you know, he was easing himself out
326
00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:22.930
of a marriage and maybe, you know, a rebound relationship.
327
00:21:23.269 --> 00:21:28.650
Who knows? But again, that was something he was looking
328
00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:32.250
forward to. He was looking to close the chapter with
329
00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:37.099
this other relationship and move on. And there's a lot
330
00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:43.180
of very messy stuff that's hard to verify. So John
331
00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:46.039
has started to pack some stuff at the house. The
332
00:21:46.059 --> 00:21:49.269
day he went missing, he and Debra had actually, or
333
00:21:49.289 --> 00:21:53.309
the day before, they had gone to their first therapy
334
00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:58.190
session and it didn't go well. Obviously, I have no
335
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idea if they were attempting to save the marriage or
336
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:05.339
just get out of the relationship with as little emotional
337
00:22:05.420 --> 00:22:10.210
destruction as possible. I'm going to guess that saving the
338
00:22:10.230 --> 00:22:15.670
marriage probably wasn't on John's agenda since he was dabbling
339
00:22:15.930 --> 00:22:19.470
in a new relationship. But I don't know what the
340
00:22:19.529 --> 00:22:24.829
intention of going to therapy was. Because I went to
341
00:22:24.869 --> 00:22:27.970
counseling with my ex after we were like, we are
342
00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:35.349
not staying together. And it helped be nice. But my
343
00:22:35.390 --> 00:22:38.549
biggest regret about my divorce is being too nice. So
344
00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:43.799
just putting that out there. That's my toxic advice. I
345
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.920
regret being nice. Well, yeah.
346
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I mean, just the fact that they were going to therapy,
347
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whether one wanted it more than the other, they were
348
00:22:52.609 --> 00:22:57.230
both participating at least to that capacity of them still
349
00:22:57.309 --> 00:23:02.269
attending it. And, you know, whether it was for one
350
00:23:02.289 --> 00:23:05.980
purpose who was hoping to reconcile or maybe just for
351
00:23:06.019 --> 00:23:08.500
both of them to maybe the counselor was like, or
352
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.980
the therapist was helping them navigate the end of this marriage.
353
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You know, unless that was disclosed, we have no idea
354
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what the nature of that was.
355
00:23:18.150 --> 00:23:22.250
Which, which wouldn't be unreasonable because they had a five-year-old
356
00:23:22.289 --> 00:23:25.390
kid together. So even if they were going to just,
357
00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:32.369
how do we uncouple without, with the least amount of
358
00:23:32.410 --> 00:23:37.269
damage possible. Yeah. But despite that therapy session not going well,
359
00:23:37.309 --> 00:23:39.769
which is not really that surprising, honestly, like have you
360
00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:44.630
ever gone to therapy and been like, wow, that went great. Okay. Well,
361
00:23:44.650 --> 00:23:46.970
if things were going great, you probably wouldn't be going
362
00:23:46.990 --> 00:23:47.650
to therapy.
363
00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:49.299
Yeah. Yeah.
364
00:23:49.339 --> 00:23:53.759
Right. That's very true. Especially the first session. Yeah.
365
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.740
And I can tell you, I've gone to couples counseling
366
00:23:57.019 --> 00:24:02.119
with two separate partners and we were not walking away,
367
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:09.680
walking out of those sessions, high-fiving each other. Like, yeah, yeah.
368
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:13.640
Great job in there. Teamwork. Right. I'm glad we're on
369
00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:15.900
the same page. It's almost like we don't need therapy.
370
00:24:16.509 --> 00:24:21.990
Good riddance. But despite these struggles that they were dealing
371
00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:26.579
with as a couple and individually and Deborah didn't think
372
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John had any intention of self-harm. And the therapist they
373
00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:34.529
had met with agreed. She said that she didn't see
374
00:24:34.609 --> 00:24:39.349
anything in that session that indicated he was a suicide risk. However,
375
00:24:40.049 --> 00:24:44.190
years after his disappearance, the therapist said that they did
376
00:24:44.230 --> 00:24:47.930
believe that he was suicidal. So why change your mind
377
00:24:48.819 --> 00:24:52.640
years later? I don't know. No, that's weird. It doesn't
378
00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:59.609
make sense. And... I think it's also really difficult to
379
00:25:00.869 --> 00:25:08.920
obtain any real information in a first session with two people.
380
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:10.559
Because presumably.
381
00:25:10.579 --> 00:25:13.299
So it was confirmed this was the first session with
382
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:14.319
this therapist for them.
383
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.839
Okay. That... Absolutely. That makes even... That makes even more
384
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:23.250
sense that... I'm sorry. They would not... Any professional therapist...
385
00:25:22.849 --> 00:25:23.269
I'm sorry.
386
00:25:23.930 --> 00:25:26.910
will, I feel like if you ask a hundred of them,
387
00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:30.650
they'll all say, I would not be able to determine
388
00:25:30.690 --> 00:25:33.190
that because you don't have a baseline for them yet.
389
00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:37.130
So you don't know what's deviating from it or what
390
00:25:37.190 --> 00:25:39.980
is out of character for them to raise any flags
391
00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:43.519
for yourself as like, as a therapist, unless it's something
392
00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:46.500
that's like overtly obvious where someone comes in and says,
393
00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:49.539
I'm thinking about harming myself.
394
00:25:50.019 --> 00:25:54.190
Right. Exactly. That's how I felt too, especially with two
395
00:25:54.269 --> 00:26:00.029
people you only have probably 60 minutes and you're probably
396
00:26:00.049 --> 00:26:03.000
getting like background information I wouldn't think that you're getting
397
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:09.759
too deep into anything with either individual so unless you
398
00:26:09.819 --> 00:26:16.960
are coming in with just blaring red flags I wouldn't
399
00:26:17.019 --> 00:26:21.630
think that most therapists would be comfortable weighing in either
400
00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:25.849
way I agree at A thousand percent. And again, why
401
00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:27.869
change your stance years later?
402
00:26:27.890 --> 00:26:27.970
Yeah.
403
00:26:29.069 --> 00:26:34.789
That doesn't make sense either. But before leaving, the morning
404
00:26:34.930 --> 00:26:40.849
of his disappearance, John had told Deborah two things. That
405
00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:43.890
she should have a nice life and that she should
406
00:26:43.970 --> 00:26:47.730
tell their daughter that he loved her. And at the time,
407
00:26:47.750 --> 00:26:52.390
at the time, she just read it as someone who
408
00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:55.700
was exiting the marriage.
409
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:59.670
The first part, maybe I don't love the like, pass
410
00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:04.509
along my love to our daughter part. Is this something,
411
00:27:04.589 --> 00:27:07.970
you know, that he had said previously to her? Was
412
00:27:08.009 --> 00:27:10.380
that sometimes his way of saying, think about it when
413
00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:16.519
you don't plan on even regularly communicating with someone. And
414
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:19.420
especially if it's like a relationship that's coming to an end,
415
00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:21.730
How many times have you said, like, have.
416
00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:23.339
A nice life? Like, I've said it.
417
00:27:23.349 --> 00:27:25.410
Oh, yeah. You know, like, we've all said that. So
418
00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:28.450
that part isn't concerning. That doesn't sound to me like,
419
00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:32.410
have a nice life because I'm going to end mine.
420
00:27:34.289 --> 00:27:39.410
Maybe the way it was worded about the child, like, tell.
421
00:27:40.130 --> 00:27:45.990
Even that, I don't flag that as, like, a self-harm
422
00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:53.400
red flag necessarily because... in a relationship that is ending,
423
00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:59.359
it is not uncommon for one partner who is likely
424
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.680
going to get custody of the child to be angry
425
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:05.380
and say things like, you're never going to see our
426
00:28:05.420 --> 00:28:08.059
kid again. Or if you move away, that's it. You're
427
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:13.049
not a parent. So if things were kind of, I
428
00:28:13.569 --> 00:28:16.269
wouldn't even say nasty. I mean, I think when people
429
00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:20.710
are getting divorced, it's It's messy. You're not nice unless
430
00:28:20.750 --> 00:28:25.230
you're me. And then you're stupid. Be worse. You're too nice.
431
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.940
Too nice. I think it's not uncommon for people to
432
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:34.279
say things that they otherwise would not say. And sometimes
433
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.579
later down the road, instead of being like me, they're like,
434
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.819
you know what? I shouldn't have said some of those things. Definitely.
435
00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:47.130
And if he was planning on moving to somewhere... long distance,
436
00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:53.980
not as easily accessible. So with everything going on with
437
00:28:54.299 --> 00:28:57.240
this marriage ending, it could have just been another way
438
00:28:57.259 --> 00:28:59.859
of him being like, you know, like, was it a daughter?
439
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:01.619
Yeah. You said, yeah.
440
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.619
Could have just been like, you know, just kind of
441
00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:06.970
remind her that I love her. I'm not abandoning her.
442
00:29:07.049 --> 00:29:10.410
I'm not leaving her just because we're not married anymore. Like,
443
00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:14.769
obviously you're going to have primary custody. So just tell
444
00:29:14.789 --> 00:29:18.349
her I love her. And that's, it's, the context is,
445
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:19.329
is everything.
446
00:29:19.349 --> 00:29:22.829
Right, right. And I think even said it lovingly like
447
00:29:22.869 --> 00:29:27.230
that or said it like angrily, I think those are
448
00:29:27.250 --> 00:29:33.930
just part of the process and not indicative of self-harm necessarily.
449
00:29:34.450 --> 00:29:34.730
Yeah.
450
00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:38.940
So at first, when he didn't return home that night,
451
00:29:38.990 --> 00:29:46.259
at dark, Debra wasn't super concerned because obviously they were
452
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:50.039
getting a divorce and they had been arguing. And her
453
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:54.440
first thought actually was, is this man out cheating and
454
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:58.460
that's why he's not home? Which I don't, I don't
455
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.690
think anybody would blame anyone for that being their first
456
00:30:02.970 --> 00:30:08.390
thought based on the situation. Yeah. So apparently she called
457
00:30:08.430 --> 00:30:12.630
a private investigator to be like, you know, can we
458
00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:15.690
figure out if he's cheating? And then the private investigator
459
00:30:15.710 --> 00:30:19.829
was like, yeah, for $ 500. And she's like, okay, well, nevermind.
460
00:30:19.869 --> 00:30:24.009
I'll talk to you later. So ultimately around 11 o'clock,
461
00:30:24.089 --> 00:30:27.869
she did make that call. to report him missing because
462
00:30:28.589 --> 00:30:30.990
she was erring on the side of caution. Of course,
463
00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:36.009
then in hindsight, she started thinking about the things that
464
00:30:36.049 --> 00:30:40.339
he had said, and she was like, well, maybe those
465
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.700
weren't just because we were getting divorced, and maybe it
466
00:30:44.740 --> 00:30:53.180
was a final goodbye statement. But here's where I'm like, okay, Deborah,
467
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.630
this was a red flag. Let's call it as it
468
00:30:56.849 --> 00:31:00.970
is apparently a month before they had been having an
469
00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:06.170
argument in the car and John held a loaded gun
470
00:31:06.630 --> 00:31:10.809
to his own head and asked her like almost like
471
00:31:10.869 --> 00:31:16.319
daring her to answer whether she wanted him to kill
472
00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:22.279
himself okay well Debra that's girl that's a red flag
473
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.099
for a variety of things Yeah, we're really burying the
474
00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:27.109
lead with that one.
475
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:34.869
That is one of those glaringly obvious, concerning, troubling signs
476
00:31:35.069 --> 00:31:39.250
of that even crossing someone's mind as like a show
477
00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:41.380
is extreme.
478
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.500
Right. And I, part of me, the fact that like
479
00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:49.019
that wasn't, that didn't jump right to the forefront of
480
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:55.109
her mind, it makes me concerned that... there were other
481
00:31:55.250 --> 00:31:58.349
crazy things going on in their relationship or that was
482
00:31:58.390 --> 00:32:03.950
just like, oh, just like another day of crazy domestic threatening,
483
00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:09.170
just craziness. Because I've never had that happen to me,
484
00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:12.349
but that would for sure stick out in my mind forever.
485
00:32:13.190 --> 00:32:18.029
Yeah. I mean, I had an ex during our breakup
486
00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:20.910
threaten something similar.
487
00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:25.789
And I did call the cops. because you're not going
488
00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:27.680
to put that on me. Right.
489
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.079
That is not up to me to determine if you
490
00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:32.940
are serious or not. And you're not going to test
491
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:36.400
me as the recipient of that threat of you doing that.
492
00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:39.829
So the cops showed up and he brushed it off
493
00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:43.609
like he was kidding. I was being dramatic. But I
494
00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:47.049
still felt like I still did what I could. Unfortunately,
495
00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:50.450
fast forward a few years, and he did do that.
496
00:32:51.380 --> 00:32:55.369
And so you never really know If how much weight
497
00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.930
is behind that? Is it an empty threat? Is it
498
00:32:57.970 --> 00:33:00.980
for theatrics? Is it to get sympathy from your partner?
499
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.059
Or is that something that has crossed their mind? And
500
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.480
now just sort of in this heightened state of emotions,
501
00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:10.299
it has sort of been exposed.
502
00:33:09.809 --> 00:33:13.269
In that way. Like, you know, don't make me do it.
503
00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:15.569
Or like, I'll do it.
504
00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:20.259
That's too concerning even just to hear someone say it once. Mm-hmm.
505
00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:25.099
Regardless of the level of emotion that's happening in the
506
00:33:25.130 --> 00:33:27.819
heat of a moment, that should still not come up
507
00:33:28.180 --> 00:33:30.299
as an option for anyone.
508
00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:39.710
Right. And statistically, stats for suicide involving veterans or first
509
00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:44.750
responders or law enforcement is much higher than the general population.
510
00:33:44.849 --> 00:33:52.119
So taking those things into consideration as well... I would
511
00:33:52.180 --> 00:33:56.670
have come to a different conclusion than Deborah initially had,
512
00:33:56.829 --> 00:34:00.430
I think. Yes. Yeah. So now we're going to roll
513
00:34:00.549 --> 00:34:07.869
into the fourth theory. And to understand this theory, we
514
00:34:09.170 --> 00:34:10.909
got to kind of talk about what was going on
515
00:34:11.170 --> 00:34:16.480
in the Antelope Valley area. This was known to be a...
516
00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:27.119
corridor for meth trafficking. It was frequented by outlaw motorcycle
517
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:34.360
clubs and gangs and just generally unsavory people. The sparsely
518
00:34:34.429 --> 00:34:39.250
populated desert is a great place to conduct crimes or
519
00:34:39.289 --> 00:34:44.130
commit crimes, I guess. Conduct crimes, either way. It's far
520
00:34:44.210 --> 00:34:49.039
enough from the city to avoid law enforcement, but still
521
00:34:49.059 --> 00:34:53.739
close enough to be a convenient location to hide away
522
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.119
some meth labs and stuff. It's the suburbs of crime.
523
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.239
It's like, oh, it's still commutable, but you got your
524
00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:04.190
own lawn. It's a little more private. Right, right. So
525
00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:10.130
there were definitely meth labs tucked out in those mountains.
526
00:35:10.349 --> 00:35:20.050
And then the biker gangs were essentially couriering, couriering, those
527
00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:24.170
drugs in and out. Not to mention, aside from the
528
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:29.679
drug activity, the area around Devil's Punchbowl already had a
529
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:34.860
reputation as just a place that people dumped bodies. Yeah,
530
00:35:34.900 --> 00:35:38.440
just dozens of bodies had been found in the area
531
00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:44.969
in a stretch of time around John's disappearance. You looking
532
00:35:44.989 --> 00:35:45.289
it up?
533
00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:47.550
Yeah, I just want to get like a view, like
534
00:35:47.590 --> 00:35:51.760
an a visual of this place. I mean, of course
535
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.539
it's beautiful.
536
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:57.889
I mean, well, there's probably no corpses in that overhead shot.
537
00:35:58.510 --> 00:35:59.510
There are not.
538
00:35:59.789 --> 00:36:00.110
No.
539
00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:01.130
Well, that's good.
540
00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:05.369
But it's, I mean, it's vast, of course. And I
541
00:36:05.409 --> 00:36:12.139
can see how things could easily be concealed. Yeah.
542
00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:15.920
What I thought was interesting, though, that this is such
543
00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:23.429
like a good, good, in quotes, spot to dump bodies.
544
00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:29.829
But there were several witnesses that were on the trail
545
00:36:29.869 --> 00:36:32.869
that day that saw John. So it's not like no
546
00:36:32.929 --> 00:36:33.849
one ever went there.
547
00:36:34.389 --> 00:36:37.650
It's one of those weird places where there's foot traffic
548
00:36:37.809 --> 00:36:39.909
of kind of just regular folks using it.
549
00:36:40.019 --> 00:36:46.320
But then there's just also around the corner, some crimes
550
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:50.329
being committed. A meth lab. Yeah. So I thought that
551
00:36:50.369 --> 00:36:54.150
was interesting to put the two scenarios up against each other.
552
00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:57.849
Like thinking like, oh, visitor center and a field trip
553
00:36:57.909 --> 00:37:01.550
with students and people hiking. And that's like, okay, but
554
00:37:01.570 --> 00:37:05.900
there's also dead bodies and drugs being cooked up over there. Yeah,
555
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:07.639
some dead bodies and criminals.
556
00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:08.659
Yeah.
557
00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:14.179
A few days after the disappearance, a woman who had
558
00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:19.860
ties to... one of the biker gangs in this area,
559
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:23.789
called in a tip. She said that she had actually
560
00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:28.090
heard that John had stumbled onto a meth lab out
561
00:37:28.130 --> 00:37:31.969
there and had been, quote, taken care of. There was
562
00:37:32.070 --> 00:37:36.699
another tip that was called in from someone else claiming
563
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:44.460
that John had stumbled upon something and he... It sounds
564
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.219
like there was some sort of interaction with someone else
565
00:37:47.380 --> 00:37:51.719
because they indicated that he was going to play hero,
566
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.400
which probably just meant like do his job and report
567
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:01.119
a crime. But he was silenced before he could do that.
568
00:38:02.110 --> 00:38:06.329
And the informant or the caller said he was put
569
00:38:06.449 --> 00:38:08.989
in a hole was what the phrasing the person used.
570
00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:16.159
But the department didn't chase these tips. until 2000, so
571
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:23.480
two years later, when homicide detective Larry Bradenburg got the case,
572
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:31.380
apparently nine people connected to the meth lab business had
573
00:38:32.179 --> 00:38:36.369
told this detective similar versions of that story, that basically
574
00:38:36.389 --> 00:38:39.909
John was out there on his run. He stumbled upon
575
00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:44.599
something that They didn't want him to see, and that
576
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.579
resulted in his death. Nine people. I feel like that's
577
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.599
a lot of people to reach out to law enforcement
578
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.820
with a story. Yeah. And a story that all sort
579
00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:58.789
of aligns with each other. Right. And in several of
580
00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:05.070
these stories, people named another deputy who worked in the
581
00:39:05.230 --> 00:39:10.320
area as being involved in John's disappearance. Right. sounds like
582
00:39:10.420 --> 00:39:14.730
this deputy may have been as involved in the crime
583
00:39:14.789 --> 00:39:19.289
of the area as any of the drug dealers or
584
00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:23.889
gangs that were operating out there. That's not unrealistic. No,
585
00:39:23.949 --> 00:39:30.320
it's not. And in this area, because it's sparsely populated...
586
00:39:30.449 --> 00:39:33.639
there's not a ton of law enforcement. This deputy was
587
00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:38.760
covering a large area on his own. So it's not
588
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:43.760
like other law enforcement were coming through that area. He
589
00:39:43.780 --> 00:39:46.420
was kind of like, I am the law here and
590
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:47.960
I can do whatever I want.
591
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:48.719
Mm-hmm.
592
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:55.179
So this detective was like, huh, this seems like I
593
00:39:55.219 --> 00:40:01.699
should investigate. And he actually ended up finding a large
594
00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:06.429
meth lab near the punch bowl where they think that
595
00:40:06.469 --> 00:40:11.230
John was last seen. The detective went up in a
596
00:40:11.289 --> 00:40:17.159
helicopter to survey the area and noted that the southeast
597
00:40:17.179 --> 00:40:24.139
side of the property basically dropped right down into Devil's
598
00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:30.090
Punchbowl Park. So this meth lab was directly next to
599
00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:34.150
the park. In a search warrant affidavit, he wrote that
600
00:40:34.210 --> 00:40:38.949
he believed the deputy others had named. The name is
601
00:40:39.090 --> 00:40:44.039
out there, but when things are unproven, I tend to
602
00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:48.340
leave the name out just because, again, if you looked
603
00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:51.079
up this case, you will very quickly find the name
604
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.090
of the person that is indicated. But, yeah, in his
605
00:40:55.739 --> 00:41:00.269
warrant affidavit, he wrote that he believed that this particular person,
606
00:41:00.829 --> 00:41:04.730
along with other unidentified people, had murdered John to keep
607
00:41:04.789 --> 00:41:08.929
him from exposing their operation. Oh, okay. There's also some
608
00:41:08.969 --> 00:41:09.750
information in.
609
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:15.920
Some sources that was pretty, like, vague, but there is
610
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:21.119
indication that the FBI had their own sources that gave
611
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:29.030
similar information. The FBI and the Sheriff's Department had this information.
612
00:41:32.389 --> 00:41:34.670
Why are we not looking into it, friends? Obviously, here's
613
00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:38.030
where it starts to feel like a bigger conspiracy than
614
00:41:38.090 --> 00:41:45.070
just one bad cop. Mm-hmm. Because as the homicide investigation progressed,
615
00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:50.190
Bradenburg was pulled off the case. Oh, wow. I think
616
00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:56.559
that's telling. Very telling. Another deputy, Darren Hager, had been
617
00:41:56.619 --> 00:42:02.780
part of a task force called Operation Silent Thunder. And
618
00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:06.679
that was a two-year operation that was focusing on the victims.
619
00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:12.230
meth manufacturers and the distributors all in that area. It
620
00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:16.250
was a long-term operation. They were watching everybody and whatever.
621
00:42:16.269 --> 00:42:22.329
This deputy also believed, after two years of surveillance, that
622
00:42:22.530 --> 00:42:27.679
there were real connections to this drug operation and what
623
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.519
happened to John. And he wanted to keep working that
624
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:36.469
angle because, again, there was enough information that was pointing
625
00:42:36.530 --> 00:42:42.230
him in a particular direction. But when he reported his findings,
626
00:42:42.929 --> 00:42:48.940
which included other corrupt law enforcement officers, he also soon
627
00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:52.719
pulled off the case. Then there was like an 18-month
628
00:42:52.820 --> 00:42:59.969
investigation into him, and he was ultimately fired. Oh, my God.
629
00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:05.710
He did eventually sue for wrongful termination. And a jury
630
00:43:05.809 --> 00:43:11.139
agreed that he had been wrongfully fired, basically in retaliation
631
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:18.260
for looking at other officers as being involved in this crime.
632
00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:22.860
And he won $ 4. 5 million in that lawsuit.
633
00:43:23.380 --> 00:43:23.960
Jeez.
634
00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:29.659
Good for him, though. Again, I think if they were
635
00:43:29.739 --> 00:43:34.780
able to bring this case to a jury... They also
636
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:41.230
felt that there was enough information that he was not wrongful,
637
00:43:41.269 --> 00:43:44.929
like barking up the wrong tree. And they're like, okay, no,
638
00:43:45.170 --> 00:43:50.349
you got fired because you were on to something. Exactly. Additionally,
639
00:43:51.090 --> 00:43:55.739
one of John's former bosses had spent years kind of
640
00:43:55.800 --> 00:44:03.659
running his own background investigation. And... He came to a
641
00:44:03.739 --> 00:44:09.309
different but similar conclusion. He actually thought that John never
642
00:44:09.389 --> 00:44:13.150
made it to the trail that morning. He thinks that
643
00:44:14.130 --> 00:44:17.769
something had happened before he reached the trailhead. So whether
644
00:44:17.789 --> 00:44:21.699
it was the parking lot or even somewhere, you know,
645
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:28.139
between the house and the visitor center. And this person
646
00:44:28.179 --> 00:44:31.420
thinks that his body was then moved across state lines
647
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.400
even before, well before anyone even knew he was missing,
648
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:37.440
which obviously would make sense if it happened at the
649
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:41.679
earlier end of his run. But he was seen by
650
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:46.019
the school teacher. Like a credible eyewitness. So that's what
651
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:46.960
I was about to say.
652
00:44:47.019 --> 00:44:50.260
Like I'd agree with that, except there was someone who
653
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.019
confirmed seeing him essentially.
654
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:56.119
Right. I think the general outcome of the theory is
655
00:44:56.199 --> 00:45:00.849
the same that John had either seen something or was
656
00:45:01.789 --> 00:45:08.079
going to, you know, report something, and basically he lost
657
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:12.360
his life because of it. Yeah. When this former boss
658
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:18.840
brought his concerns to the Internal Affairs Department, because he
659
00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:24.550
also believed that other officers were involved, the... Captain of
660
00:45:24.610 --> 00:45:30.929
the Internal Affairs Department vouched for the integrity of the
661
00:45:30.989 --> 00:45:36.409
primary suspect that this guy had named, probably this other deputy,
662
00:45:37.329 --> 00:45:43.159
in the other nine stories. Basically, they were like, oh,
663
00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:48.360
you think Jimmy is doing crime? Jimmy is a great person.
664
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:49.610
He is the best. He is.
665
00:45:52.289 --> 00:45:54.949
My best friend, he does no wrong. When you get
666
00:45:54.969 --> 00:46:01.219
that feedback immediately, like, okay, cool, this is going nowhere. Basically,
667
00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:05.280
he was told you're jumping to the wrong conclusions and
668
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:11.969
just kind of brushed him and his concerns out the door. Obviously,
669
00:46:12.349 --> 00:46:17.690
he was like, huh, it's very weird that my concerns
670
00:46:17.849 --> 00:46:24.179
and theory is just completely discounted, especially when The department's
671
00:46:24.219 --> 00:46:28.119
original stance on this case was that it was a suicide.
672
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.449
That's what they said at the end of the investigation.
673
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:37.349
But the case is also still open. It was still
674
00:46:37.369 --> 00:46:41.929
a homicide case. So it's like if they believe he
675
00:46:41.969 --> 00:46:46.130
killed himself, why wasn't the case officially closed?
676
00:46:46.590 --> 00:46:46.909
Right.
677
00:46:48.349 --> 00:46:51.469
If it was truly believed that he had killed himself,
678
00:46:52.150 --> 00:46:56.639
there wouldn't be. a homicide investigation, and it definitely wouldn't
679
00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:03.099
still be open decades later. Yeah. This former boss thought
680
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:07.679
it was very suspicious, as do we. But on the
681
00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:12.920
other hand, if they were actually investigating, or if it
682
00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:17.889
was actually a homicide case, why weren't they investigating the leads?
683
00:47:18.610 --> 00:47:23.289
There was information, and it wasn't going anywhere. And then,
684
00:47:23.329 --> 00:47:28.440
of course... when anyone was making progress, they were taken
685
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.039
off the case. So none of it makes any sense.
686
00:47:31.099 --> 00:47:34.940
It's like, if we're all in collusion, let's agree we're
687
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:38.739
going to close this case. But that's not what happened.
688
00:47:38.860 --> 00:47:43.050
So I don't know. It's kind of, I don't know
689
00:47:43.070 --> 00:47:43.730
what to make of that.
690
00:47:44.489 --> 00:47:47.670
It's very messy, like you initially said. And I didn't
691
00:47:47.690 --> 00:47:51.500
realize the extent of the mess before you went into it.
692
00:47:51.710 --> 00:47:56.139
And Yeah, a lot of strange moves being made by
693
00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:57.519
different parties involved.
694
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:02.789
Right. Decades later now, no remains were ever found. There
695
00:48:02.829 --> 00:48:07.070
were no additional physical clues that ever tied back to John.
696
00:48:07.530 --> 00:48:11.210
For his family and those who loved him, a lot
697
00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:16.420
of unknowns remain. For his wife, I can't imagine how
698
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:24.360
complicated both the... emotional and legal aftermath must have been. Like, yes,
699
00:48:24.389 --> 00:48:27.309
they were heading for divorce, but that doesn't mean your
700
00:48:27.369 --> 00:48:30.929
feelings automatically turn off. She had to navigate her own
701
00:48:30.989 --> 00:48:36.349
complicated feelings and grief without really knowing what happened. I
702
00:48:36.510 --> 00:48:42.880
think that the unknown complicates an already complicated situation. And
703
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:47.980
she was having to support her daughter through this situation.
704
00:48:50.409 --> 00:48:54.880
I can't imagine how difficult that situation can be. I
705
00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:01.000
didn't see that he was ever declared dead, but typically
706
00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:06.699
it's what, like seven, most states are like seven years before. And,
707
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:10.769
you know, for a family left behind, that's really difficult.
708
00:49:10.989 --> 00:49:15.389
Like legally, you can't get life insurance. You can't get
709
00:49:15.849 --> 00:49:17.769
social security death benefits.
710
00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:21.579
You well there are like legal closures that really kind
711
00:49:21.659 --> 00:49:25.849
of you want to be able to achieve because having
712
00:49:25.949 --> 00:49:30.329
all that open-ended stuff that is difficult it's not that
713
00:49:30.349 --> 00:49:34.489
I mean Most people don't want to have to, you know,
714
00:49:34.869 --> 00:49:38.760
do life insurance stuff and deal with paperwork of someone
715
00:49:38.980 --> 00:49:42.099
being declared dead or deceased, but necessary.
716
00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:46.119
But even like selling a vehicle, if the vehicle is
717
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.780
in this other person's name and they haven't been declared dead,
718
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.820
you would have to go through court. And it's really
719
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:56.699
difficult to even sell that vehicle because in the eyes
720
00:49:56.780 --> 00:50:02.590
of the law, this person isn't dead. You can't sell
721
00:50:02.610 --> 00:50:03.349
their stuff.
722
00:50:04.230 --> 00:50:07.650
A lot of financial and legal complications when you're dealing
723
00:50:07.690 --> 00:50:07.929
with that.
724
00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:13.739
Right, right. So that just compounds grief that families in
725
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:20.119
this situation are dealing with. So maybe someday what happened
726
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:26.139
will come to light. But as of just about 30
727
00:50:26.139 --> 00:50:31.530
years later, we still don't know. But It does seem
728
00:50:31.590 --> 00:50:37.670
like the answer is out there if people are allowed
729
00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:40.949
to see through an investigation.
730
00:50:40.969 --> 00:50:44.369
Yeah, and that's the key phrase right there, if they're
731
00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:47.369
allowed to, because it sounds like some people did try
732
00:50:47.409 --> 00:50:49.130
to and they were stopped in their tracks.
733
00:50:49.170 --> 00:50:51.429
So the answer does sound like it's there.
734
00:50:51.469 --> 00:50:57.019
It's just, will someone be able to bypass the blockades
735
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.420
and connect enough dots?
736
00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:07.219
Right. So actually, let me look. There is... Hold on.
737
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:10.280
Let me do a little Google. I can get my
738
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:14.039
keyboard to work. I did see, and I did not
739
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:18.619
listen to, because I do not listen to anything that
740
00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:25.269
we're covering until after. There's an eight-part... I'm trying to
741
00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:30.309
find the name of it. Okay, there's an eight-part podcast focusing...
742
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:36.739
just on this case called Valley of Shadows. Okay. So
743
00:51:37.010 --> 00:51:42.809
they really get much deeper into the weeds of the
744
00:51:43.429 --> 00:51:47.949
potential corruption and all of that. So I think I
745
00:51:47.989 --> 00:51:51.050
might give that a listen. Yeah.
746
00:51:51.130 --> 00:51:54.250
And then it would be cool to then hear your
747
00:51:54.289 --> 00:51:58.320
takeaways from that as a sort of extension slash update
748
00:51:58.619 --> 00:51:59.599
of this episode.
749
00:51:59.619 --> 00:52:04.829
Right. Yeah, because they definitely, it looks like they have, yeah,
750
00:52:04.929 --> 00:52:11.969
like seven hours of coverage. So it is called, again, like,
751
00:52:11.989 --> 00:52:15.369
I feel like a millennial. Well, I am. When you
752
00:52:15.409 --> 00:52:18.389
repeat things back, people could just rewind to hear that
753
00:52:18.409 --> 00:52:20.739
it's called Valley of Shadows. I don't have to say it.
754
00:52:21.139 --> 00:52:25.780
And the name again is. It's just, it's just ingrained
755
00:52:25.820 --> 00:52:26.400
in us, though.
756
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:26.880
I know.
757
00:52:27.219 --> 00:52:29.550
I know. I'll give it a listen tomorrow, I guess,
758
00:52:29.690 --> 00:52:32.559
or start listening tomorrow. Yeah, definitely let us know what
759
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:34.940
you find out from it. Yeah.
760
00:52:35.619 --> 00:52:35.940
All right.
761
00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:37.320
Well, until next time.