Contouring Printed Electronics

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This is

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the Discovery

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Files podcast

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from the U.S.

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National Science

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Foundation.

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New and

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ambitious ideas

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lay the foundation

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for the

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next generation

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of technologies

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that strengthen

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economic

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competitiveness

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and enhance

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national security.

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We're joined today

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by Ethan Secor,

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an NSF

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supported

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researcher

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who is

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using specialized

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additive

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manufacturing

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techniques

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to create curved

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and 3D electronics.

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Professor Secor,

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thank you so much

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for joining me

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today.

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Very happy

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to be here.

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So I think I want

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to start

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with asking you

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about your interest

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in the subject

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to begin with.

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How did you

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become interested

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in engineering

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for printable

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electronics?

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I think

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the most

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direct answer

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is that

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when I started

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grad school,

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the professor

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I really wanted

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to work with

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had an open project

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with printed

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electronics,

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I was not

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familiar with it

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before that.

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But now that was

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14 years ago now.

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And the reason I'm

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still working

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on printed

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electronics is

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I it's just

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a very

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fascinating

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topic,

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it brings

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in a lot of

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different

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expertise.

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I can be working

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with chemists,

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chemical engineers

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and materials

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scientists,

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electrical

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engineers,

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mechanical

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engineers and me,

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it requires

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a lot of

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different

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perspectives.

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So it's

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very

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interdisciplinary.

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And that also means

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there's always

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a lot of new stuff.

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Right.

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Keeps it

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a very interesting.

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So I want to

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kind of segue

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into the printing

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portion of this.

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I think

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the general

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audience is used to

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maybe 3D

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printers at home,

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maybe a

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LaserJet printer,

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maybe an

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inkjet printer.

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That kind of

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is approaching

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these techniques

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that you're

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working with.

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So what is,

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I guess,

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an aerosol

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jet printer

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and how does

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it work

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with electronics?

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Yeah, that's

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a great question.

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I'll start

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with some of the

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the more

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niche areas of it.

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So the aerosol part

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of air printing is

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we're working

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with an aerosol.

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So that's very

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small droplets

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in this case

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droplets of

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a liquid ink

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that are carried

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by a gas flow.

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So if you think of

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like an airbrush

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or spray painting,

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it's similar

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in terms

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of depositing

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droplets

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onto a surface

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by pushing them

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along with

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a gas flow.

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Where

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we're different

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from that

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is, rather

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than spraying out

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and covering

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a large area

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with paint.

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We focus

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that droplet

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stream down

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to a very

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fine precision.

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So we're

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talking about

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sub 100 micron

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wide lines down to

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20 microns.

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So human hair is

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on the order

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of 100 microns

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in width.

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So that kind of

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length scale,

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that's one of

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the differences

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in comparison

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to spray

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painting

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where you're

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putting down

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a colored

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material, we’re

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of course

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working with

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electronically

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functional

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materials.

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So rather than a

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red or a blue ink,

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we might have a

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conductive ink

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and a

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dielectric ink.

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And being able

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to choose between

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those

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how we pattern

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a device.

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And so

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that now

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we're, we're

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printing circuits

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rather than

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pictures.

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And then the last

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part of it

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is we're going

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to take

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that process

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and strap it onto

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a motion system.

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So a computer

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controlled

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motion system

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so that we can

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get really

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fine precision

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and really

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good control

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over the

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actual pattern

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that we're making.

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People are

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potentially

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more familiar

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with things

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like inkjet

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printing.

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So some of

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the comparisons

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there.

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We're taking

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a digital file

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to define the part

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that we're making.

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It's a computer

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controlled process,

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and a lot of the

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kind of precision

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that we had

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is pretty similar

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to inkjet printing,

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maybe a

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little bit better.

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And the other

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similarity

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there is with

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inkjet printing,

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you're printing

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a 2D pattern

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or a thin

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film pattern,

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so you're

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not printing

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bulk structures.

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So that's

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another similarity

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to inject printing.

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The other

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technology to

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kind of

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triangulate here

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between spray

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painting or

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airbrushing,

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inkjet printing

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and kind of

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a typical desktop

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3D printer.

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So there

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you're defining

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a pattern

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in software.

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You're sending it

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to a printer.

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It's going

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to execute

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those

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print commands

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using a nozzle

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to extrude out

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material.

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So here just rather

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than extruding out

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a bulk material

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that you can hold

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in your hand,

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we're printing

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a very

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thin layer

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of material

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with very

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high precision.

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So I'm

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thinking about

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the ink itself.

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And when we're

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getting at

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electronics,

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like you're

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really fine detail

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and really

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specifics

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you need to get,

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especially

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if you're like

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microstructure

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level,

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like we're

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getting at

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with most

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electronics

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at this point.

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Can you talk

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a little bit

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about what

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materials or what

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considerations

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you have for that

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ink itself?

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So there's

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definitely

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a lot of chemistry

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that goes into it

326
00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:30,637
in terms of

327
00:04:30,637 --> 00:04:31,838
how do I get these

328
00:04:32,138 --> 00:04:32,438
let’s say

329
00:04:32,438 --> 00:04:32,705
silver

330
00:04:32,705 --> 00:04:33,473
nanoparticles,

331
00:04:33,473 --> 00:04:34,374
how we disperse

332
00:04:34,374 --> 00:04:34,674
those

333
00:04:34,674 --> 00:04:35,942
and get a stable

334
00:04:36,175 --> 00:04:37,377
dispersion of them.

335
00:04:37,610 --> 00:04:38,711
How do we tune

336
00:04:38,711 --> 00:04:39,178
the fluid

337
00:04:39,178 --> 00:04:40,380
properties for the

338
00:04:40,413 --> 00:04:41,614
printing process?

339
00:04:41,714 --> 00:04:42,382
So things

340
00:04:42,382 --> 00:04:43,650
like the viscosity,

341
00:04:43,983 --> 00:04:44,584
like the

342
00:04:44,584 --> 00:04:45,785
volatility, or if

343
00:04:46,352 --> 00:04:46,819
we're always

344
00:04:46,819 --> 00:04:47,754
printing on the

345
00:04:47,754 --> 00:04:48,321
some kind

346
00:04:48,321 --> 00:04:49,055
of surface.

347
00:04:49,055 --> 00:04:49,922
So that

348
00:04:49,922 --> 00:04:50,990
surface matters.

349
00:04:50,990 --> 00:04:52,592
And the interaction

350
00:04:52,592 --> 00:04:53,293
between the surface

351
00:04:53,293 --> 00:04:53,860
and the ink

352
00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:54,961
is very important.

353
00:04:54,961 --> 00:04:55,361
And then

354
00:04:55,361 --> 00:04:56,262
ultimately

355
00:04:56,262 --> 00:04:57,330
works fine to make

356
00:04:57,330 --> 00:04:57,630
these

357
00:04:57,630 --> 00:04:58,231
elastically

358
00:04:58,231 --> 00:04:58,731
forcible.

359
00:04:58,731 --> 00:04:59,832
So if I start

360
00:04:59,832 --> 00:05:00,300
with a bunch

361
00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:01,234
of silver

362
00:05:01,234 --> 00:05:02,035
nanoparticles

363
00:05:02,035 --> 00:05:02,635
I put them on

364
00:05:02,635 --> 00:05:03,136
the surface.

365
00:05:03,136 --> 00:05:03,536
That's not

366
00:05:03,536 --> 00:05:04,370
very useful

367
00:05:04,370 --> 00:05:05,305
as it is.

368
00:05:05,305 --> 00:05:05,705
We need

369
00:05:05,705 --> 00:05:05,972
to have

370
00:05:05,972 --> 00:05:06,839
those center

371
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:07,440
together,

372
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,541
fuzed together

373
00:05:08,541 --> 00:05:09,809
so that we get a

374
00:05:10,176 --> 00:05:11,377
more like a bulk

375
00:05:11,377 --> 00:05:11,778
silver

376
00:05:11,778 --> 00:05:12,979
properties, better

377
00:05:12,979 --> 00:05:13,579
electrical

378
00:05:13,579 --> 00:05:14,347
conductivity.

379
00:05:14,347 --> 00:05:15,014
You get better

380
00:05:15,014 --> 00:05:15,548
mechanical

381
00:05:15,548 --> 00:05:16,749
properties when you

382
00:05:17,317 --> 00:05:17,583
center together

383
00:05:17,583 --> 00:05:18,217
and that's more of

384
00:05:18,217 --> 00:05:19,385
the material side

385
00:05:19,385 --> 00:05:19,752
and

386
00:05:19,752 --> 00:05:20,286
post-processing,

387
00:05:20,286 --> 00:05:21,054
you’re

388
00:05:21,054 --> 00:05:21,354
kind of

389
00:05:21,354 --> 00:05:22,188
thermal centering

390
00:05:22,188 --> 00:05:23,189
after you print it.

391
00:05:23,189 --> 00:05:23,856
But that is a

392
00:05:23,856 --> 00:05:25,158
big consideration.

393
00:05:25,291 --> 00:05:26,492
All of those things

394
00:05:26,693 --> 00:05:27,593
are just layered

395
00:05:27,593 --> 00:05:28,161
on top of

396
00:05:28,161 --> 00:05:28,961
each other.

397
00:05:28,961 --> 00:05:29,595
Any change

398
00:05:29,595 --> 00:05:30,263
that you make

399
00:05:30,263 --> 00:05:30,697
up front

400
00:05:30,697 --> 00:05:31,597
in the chemistry,

401
00:05:31,597 --> 00:05:32,065
it's going to

402
00:05:32,065 --> 00:05:33,299
cascade down

403
00:05:33,299 --> 00:05:33,666
into the

404
00:05:33,666 --> 00:05:34,634
fluid properties

405
00:05:34,634 --> 00:05:35,034
and how the

406
00:05:35,034 --> 00:05:35,935
material behaves

407
00:05:35,935 --> 00:05:37,103
after you put them.

408
00:05:37,103 --> 00:05:38,137
So thinking

409
00:05:38,137 --> 00:05:38,371
about

410
00:05:38,371 --> 00:05:39,105
the development

411
00:05:39,105 --> 00:05:39,505
of the

412
00:05:39,505 --> 00:05:40,573
ink specifically

413
00:05:40,573 --> 00:05:40,973
along

414
00:05:40,973 --> 00:05:42,175
the way of this.

415
00:05:42,241 --> 00:05:42,775
Can you talk

416
00:05:42,775 --> 00:05:43,142
a little bit

417
00:05:43,142 --> 00:05:43,309
about

418
00:05:43,309 --> 00:05:44,077
the challenges

419
00:05:44,077 --> 00:05:45,278
you've had kind of

420
00:05:45,311 --> 00:05:45,912
getting things

421
00:05:45,912 --> 00:05:46,579
to work right,

422
00:05:46,579 --> 00:05:47,113
or finding

423
00:05:47,113 --> 00:05:47,914
which ones do

424
00:05:47,914 --> 00:05:48,614
work right?

425
00:05:48,614 --> 00:05:49,115
Silver

426
00:05:49,115 --> 00:05:49,916
nanoparticles are

427
00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:50,383
pretty well

428
00:05:50,383 --> 00:05:50,950
developed.

429
00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:51,417
There's

430
00:05:51,417 --> 00:05:51,718
a lot of

431
00:05:51,718 --> 00:05:52,151
commercial

432
00:05:52,151 --> 00:05:52,919
suppliers,

433
00:05:52,919 --> 00:05:53,720
and they

434
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,921
put plenty of work

435
00:05:54,921 --> 00:05:55,822
into getting

436
00:05:55,822 --> 00:05:56,723
those to work well.

437
00:05:56,723 --> 00:05:57,557
But with

438
00:05:57,557 --> 00:05:57,957
Printed

439
00:05:57,957 --> 00:05:58,558
Electronics,

440
00:05:58,558 --> 00:05:59,492
one of the big

441
00:05:59,492 --> 00:06:00,393
selling points

442
00:06:00,393 --> 00:06:00,660
of it

443
00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:01,294
is the fact

444
00:06:01,294 --> 00:06:02,362
that we have a lot

445
00:06:02,362 --> 00:06:03,429
of materials

446
00:06:03,429 --> 00:06:04,297
compatibility

447
00:06:04,297 --> 00:06:04,997
in theory.

448
00:06:04,997 --> 00:06:06,099
So we're

449
00:06:06,099 --> 00:06:06,933
not limited

450
00:06:06,933 --> 00:06:08,401
to copper.

451
00:06:08,401 --> 00:06:09,302
And FR-4

452
00:06:09,302 --> 00:06:10,203
that you would have

453
00:06:10,203 --> 00:06:11,637
in circuit boards.

454
00:06:11,838 --> 00:06:13,039
We can work with

455
00:06:13,039 --> 00:06:13,940
very small volumes

456
00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:14,640
and materials,

457
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,708
with research

458
00:06:15,708 --> 00:06:16,476
materials

459
00:06:16,476 --> 00:06:17,043
where we're

460
00:06:17,043 --> 00:06:18,077
more doing research

461
00:06:18,077 --> 00:06:18,878
and the materials

462
00:06:18,878 --> 00:06:19,545
development

463
00:06:19,545 --> 00:06:19,946
are bringing

464
00:06:19,946 --> 00:06:20,513
in custom

465
00:06:20,513 --> 00:06:21,214
materials.

466
00:06:21,214 --> 00:06:21,881
And anytime

467
00:06:21,881 --> 00:06:22,348
you're changing

468
00:06:22,348 --> 00:06:22,982
the material,

469
00:06:22,982 --> 00:06:24,117
just start

470
00:06:24,117 --> 00:06:25,151
this process over.

471
00:06:25,151 --> 00:06:26,252
So if you look

472
00:06:26,252 --> 00:06:27,286
at companies

473
00:06:27,286 --> 00:06:28,621
that work in inks,

474
00:06:28,621 --> 00:06:29,055
they get

475
00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:29,589
extremely

476
00:06:29,589 --> 00:06:30,790
sophisticated,

477
00:06:31,491 --> 00:06:32,091
it might be

478
00:06:32,091 --> 00:06:33,025
a couple of years

479
00:06:33,025 --> 00:06:34,293
to develop ink

480
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,194
formulation

481
00:06:35,194 --> 00:06:36,262
and material.

482
00:06:36,262 --> 00:06:37,296
We don't typically

483
00:06:37,296 --> 00:06:37,830
see that

484
00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:39,031
in academic

485
00:06:39,031 --> 00:06:39,232
research in

486
00:06:39,232 --> 00:06:39,332
printed

487
00:06:39,332 --> 00:06:39,599
electronics. And

488
00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:41,467
it's a lot

489
00:06:41,467 --> 00:06:42,668
more kind of

490
00:06:42,668 --> 00:06:43,870
rapid turnaround.

491
00:06:43,936 --> 00:06:44,570
Let's

492
00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:44,971
get some

493
00:06:44,971 --> 00:06:45,671
new materials

494
00:06:45,671 --> 00:06:46,139
to print.

495
00:06:46,139 --> 00:06:47,273
But a lot of

496
00:06:47,273 --> 00:06:48,040
the challenges

497
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:49,242
come in.

498
00:06:49,242 --> 00:06:49,909
After it's

499
00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:50,676
on the surface

500
00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:51,511
when you go to

501
00:06:51,511 --> 00:06:52,178
center it,

502
00:06:52,178 --> 00:06:52,812
if you have

503
00:06:52,812 --> 00:06:53,346
cracking,

504
00:06:53,346 --> 00:06:53,746
if you have

505
00:06:53,746 --> 00:06:54,714
delamination,

506
00:06:54,714 --> 00:06:55,915
a lot of cereal,

507
00:06:56,315 --> 00:06:57,316
there's definitely

508
00:06:57,316 --> 00:06:58,518
a some

509
00:06:58,518 --> 00:06:59,819
work up front

510
00:06:59,819 --> 00:07:01,020
and just getting

511
00:07:01,387 --> 00:07:02,054
with the thinking

512
00:07:02,054 --> 00:07:03,356
process here,

513
00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:03,923
certain

514
00:07:03,923 --> 00:07:04,590
constraints

515
00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:05,425
with aerosol

516
00:07:05,425 --> 00:07:06,592
venting,

517
00:07:06,592 --> 00:07:07,493
you have to dial it

518
00:07:07,493 --> 00:07:09,195
in a fair bit

519
00:07:09,228 --> 00:07:09,695
in terms

520
00:07:09,695 --> 00:07:10,596
of whether you're

521
00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:11,197
printing

522
00:07:11,197 --> 00:07:12,398
too much liquid.

523
00:07:12,432 --> 00:07:13,533
If we're trying to

524
00:07:13,533 --> 00:07:14,467
print this material

525
00:07:14,467 --> 00:07:14,834
into a

526
00:07:14,834 --> 00:07:16,035
very fine area,

527
00:07:16,068 --> 00:07:17,203
if I'm depositing

528
00:07:17,203 --> 00:07:18,104
a much too

529
00:07:18,104 --> 00:07:19,372
fluid material,

530
00:07:19,505 --> 00:07:20,106
I'm just going to

531
00:07:20,106 --> 00:07:20,740
print a puddle

532
00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:21,274
and it's

533
00:07:21,274 --> 00:07:21,574
going to

534
00:07:21,574 --> 00:07:22,041
spread out.

535
00:07:22,041 --> 00:07:22,275
It's

536
00:07:22,275 --> 00:07:23,142
under a

537
00:07:23,142 --> 00:07:23,676
high-velocity

538
00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:24,877
gas jet, it's

539
00:07:24,977 --> 00:07:25,344
going where

540
00:07:25,344 --> 00:07:26,212
it wants to go.

541
00:07:26,212 --> 00:07:27,180
But if you over

542
00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:27,547
correct

543
00:07:27,547 --> 00:07:28,748
and print it,

544
00:07:28,748 --> 00:07:28,815
kind of

545
00:07:28,815 --> 00:07:29,015
in what

546
00:07:29,015 --> 00:07:29,449
I would call too

547
00:07:29,449 --> 00:07:31,017
a dry of a state,

548
00:07:31,050 --> 00:07:31,651
that's

549
00:07:31,651 --> 00:07:32,318
where you get

550
00:07:32,318 --> 00:07:33,953
a lot of defects.

551
00:07:33,986 --> 00:07:35,421
You get a lot worse

552
00:07:35,588 --> 00:07:36,556
microstructure

553
00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:37,156
of it.

554
00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:37,857
Instead of printing

555
00:07:37,857 --> 00:07:38,157
a nice

556
00:07:38,157 --> 00:07:39,158
cohesive film.

557
00:07:39,158 --> 00:07:40,359
You have just a

558
00:07:40,359 --> 00:07:41,060
bed of sand

559
00:07:41,060 --> 00:07:41,561
basically.

560
00:07:41,561 --> 00:07:41,961
A bunch

561
00:07:41,961 --> 00:07:42,695
of these particles

562
00:07:42,695 --> 00:07:43,663
that might not be

563
00:07:43,663 --> 00:07:44,063
as well

564
00:07:44,063 --> 00:07:44,931
defined in terms

565
00:07:44,931 --> 00:07:46,165
of the fine issue

566
00:07:46,165 --> 00:07:47,133
we wrote.

567
00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:48,000
I want to pull out

568
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:48,634
a little bit

569
00:07:48,634 --> 00:07:49,602
for a

570
00:07:49,602 --> 00:07:50,703
general public.

571
00:07:50,703 --> 00:07:52,038
I think all of us

572
00:07:52,038 --> 00:07:52,772
that are familiar

573
00:07:52,772 --> 00:07:53,706
with circuit boards

574
00:07:53,706 --> 00:07:54,340
at all, it's

575
00:07:54,340 --> 00:07:55,575
this flat green

576
00:07:55,641 --> 00:07:55,908
thing

577
00:07:55,908 --> 00:07:57,043
with knobs on it

578
00:07:57,043 --> 00:07:57,376
that maybe

579
00:07:57,376 --> 00:07:57,610
you know

580
00:07:57,610 --> 00:07:57,977
what they are,

581
00:07:57,977 --> 00:07:58,344
and maybe

582
00:07:58,344 --> 00:07:59,011
you don't

583
00:07:59,011 --> 00:07:59,679
think about

584
00:07:59,679 --> 00:08:00,146
getting that

585
00:08:00,146 --> 00:08:01,814
into curved areas

586
00:08:01,814 --> 00:08:02,582
and kind of

587
00:08:02,582 --> 00:08:03,182
the potential

588
00:08:03,182 --> 00:08:03,716
uses of this.

589
00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:04,183
Can you talk

590
00:08:04,183 --> 00:08:04,584
a little bit

591
00:08:04,584 --> 00:08:05,585
about where

592
00:08:05,585 --> 00:08:06,352
this might be

593
00:08:06,352 --> 00:08:07,253
really useful

594
00:08:07,253 --> 00:08:08,554
for the future

595
00:08:08,554 --> 00:08:09,622
of electronics

596
00:08:09,622 --> 00:08:10,756
and technologies

597
00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:11,657
in general?

598
00:08:11,657 --> 00:08:12,191
Yeah.

599
00:08:12,191 --> 00:08:13,392
I think there are a

600
00:08:13,626 --> 00:08:14,227
few areas

601
00:08:14,227 --> 00:08:14,760
that we look

602
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:15,561
at pretty

603
00:08:15,561 --> 00:08:16,162
significantly.

604
00:08:16,162 --> 00:08:17,230
So I'll start

605
00:08:17,230 --> 00:08:17,997
with the caveat

606
00:08:17,997 --> 00:08:18,831
that we're. Mostly.

607
00:08:18,831 --> 00:08:19,499
Focused on

608
00:08:19,499 --> 00:08:20,500
pretty high value

609
00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:21,133
applications

610
00:08:21,133 --> 00:08:21,667
early on.

611
00:08:21,667 --> 00:08:22,869
This is going to be

612
00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:24,704
a more expensive

613
00:08:24,704 --> 00:08:25,905
or less

614
00:08:26,172 --> 00:08:26,839
scalable

615
00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:27,507
manufacturing

616
00:08:27,507 --> 00:08:28,074
process

617
00:08:28,074 --> 00:08:28,641
than your

618
00:08:28,641 --> 00:08:29,675
traditional PCB.

619
00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:30,943
So we're not,

620
00:08:31,177 --> 00:08:31,777
initially,

621
00:08:31,777 --> 00:08:32,311
looking at

622
00:08:32,311 --> 00:08:33,746
really wide

623
00:08:33,813 --> 00:08:34,313
and high

624
00:08:34,313 --> 00:08:35,014
volume

625
00:08:35,014 --> 00:08:35,748
applications,

626
00:08:35,748 --> 00:08:35,915
but

627
00:08:35,915 --> 00:08:36,616
one of the areas

628
00:08:36,616 --> 00:08:37,149
would be

629
00:08:37,149 --> 00:08:38,217
in the area

630
00:08:38,217 --> 00:08:39,418
of conformal

631
00:08:39,418 --> 00:08:39,952
antennas

632
00:08:39,952 --> 00:08:40,987
and radio frequency

633
00:08:40,987 --> 00:08:41,954
or wireless

634
00:08:41,954 --> 00:08:43,155
communication.

635
00:08:43,155 --> 00:08:43,990
So there's

636
00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:45,091
a lot of

637
00:08:45,091 --> 00:08:45,892
good reasons

638
00:08:45,892 --> 00:08:47,393
to try to get more

639
00:08:47,627 --> 00:08:48,594
antennas or

640
00:08:48,594 --> 00:08:49,462
less obstructive

641
00:08:49,462 --> 00:08:50,029
antennas

642
00:08:50,029 --> 00:08:50,796
onto things

643
00:08:50,796 --> 00:08:51,664
like airplane

644
00:08:51,664 --> 00:08:52,865
wings, drones,

645
00:08:53,065 --> 00:08:54,133
cars.

646
00:08:54,133 --> 00:08:55,201
So conformal

647
00:08:55,201 --> 00:08:55,635
antennas

648
00:08:55,635 --> 00:08:56,002
can save

649
00:08:56,002 --> 00:08:56,602
a lot of space.

650
00:08:56,602 --> 00:08:57,503
They can reduce

651
00:08:57,503 --> 00:08:58,704
aerodynamic drag,

652
00:08:58,905 --> 00:08:59,772
they can

653
00:08:59,772 --> 00:09:00,640
reduce weight.

654
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:00,907
If you're

655
00:09:00,907 --> 00:09:01,507
talking about

656
00:09:01,507 --> 00:09:02,275
an aerospace

657
00:09:02,275 --> 00:09:03,709
platform, weight

658
00:09:03,709 --> 00:09:05,278
is very critical.

659
00:09:05,745 --> 00:09:06,746
And so being able

660
00:09:06,746 --> 00:09:07,713
to fabricate

661
00:09:07,713 --> 00:09:08,514
antennas

662
00:09:08,514 --> 00:09:09,749
and the circuitry

663
00:09:09,749 --> 00:09:10,116
that goes

664
00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:11,317
along with them

665
00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:12,919
directly onto this

666
00:09:12,952 --> 00:09:13,219
kind of

667
00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:14,420
complex surface

668
00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:16,155
of, say,

669
00:09:16,155 --> 00:09:17,189
an aerospace

670
00:09:17,189 --> 00:09:17,857
composite,

671
00:09:17,857 --> 00:09:18,824
that could be a

672
00:09:18,824 --> 00:09:20,092
really big benefit.

673
00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:21,661
And the 3D geometry

674
00:09:21,661 --> 00:09:22,628
there will also

675
00:09:22,628 --> 00:09:23,563
alter the

676
00:09:23,563 --> 00:09:24,297
electromagnetic

677
00:09:24,297 --> 00:09:24,830
properties

678
00:09:24,830 --> 00:09:26,032
of an antenna,

679
00:09:26,032 --> 00:09:27,266
so you can get

680
00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:28,734
more design freedom

681
00:09:28,734 --> 00:09:29,936
by exploiting that

682
00:09:30,002 --> 00:09:31,270
3D structure of it.

683
00:09:31,304 --> 00:09:32,905
A second big area

684
00:09:32,905 --> 00:09:34,040
is pretty

685
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,441
broadly in sensing.

686
00:09:35,441 --> 00:09:36,242
So this is an area

687
00:09:36,242 --> 00:09:36,842
where printed

688
00:09:36,842 --> 00:09:37,677
electronics has

689
00:09:37,677 --> 00:09:38,511
a lot to offer

690
00:09:38,511 --> 00:09:39,278
in general,

691
00:09:39,278 --> 00:09:40,012
just because

692
00:09:40,012 --> 00:09:41,013
of the broad

693
00:09:41,013 --> 00:09:41,547
materials

694
00:09:41,547 --> 00:09:42,415
compatibility

695
00:09:42,415 --> 00:09:43,616
that we can bring.

696
00:09:43,883 --> 00:09:44,717
With the

697
00:09:44,717 --> 00:09:45,618
conformal printing,

698
00:09:45,618 --> 00:09:46,385
what that adds to

699
00:09:46,385 --> 00:09:46,919
it is now

700
00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:48,154
we can integrate

701
00:09:48,154 --> 00:09:48,654
sensors

702
00:09:48,654 --> 00:09:50,022
directly onto 3D

703
00:09:50,056 --> 00:09:51,257
surfaces.

704
00:09:51,490 --> 00:09:52,358
Structural

705
00:09:52,358 --> 00:09:53,392
health monitoring

706
00:09:53,392 --> 00:09:53,793
would be

707
00:09:53,793 --> 00:09:54,994
an big area,

708
00:09:55,027 --> 00:09:55,761
especially if

709
00:09:55,761 --> 00:09:56,295
you can start

710
00:09:56,295 --> 00:09:57,296
talking about

711
00:09:57,296 --> 00:09:57,930
more extreme

712
00:09:57,930 --> 00:09:58,831
environments.

713
00:09:58,831 --> 00:09:59,465
That's high

714
00:09:59,465 --> 00:09:59,999
temperature,

715
00:09:59,999 --> 00:10:00,800
high pressure.

716
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:01,867
If we can get

717
00:10:01,867 --> 00:10:02,602
sensors,

718
00:10:02,602 --> 00:10:03,102
maybe that's

719
00:10:03,102 --> 00:10:03,936
a temperature

720
00:10:03,936 --> 00:10:04,303
sensor

721
00:10:04,303 --> 00:10:05,504
or a strain sensor

722
00:10:05,504 --> 00:10:07,473
into these complex

723
00:10:07,473 --> 00:10:08,708
3D surfaces.

724
00:10:08,908 --> 00:10:09,275
That can

725
00:10:09,275 --> 00:10:09,742
give you a lot

726
00:10:09,742 --> 00:10:10,576
of capabilities,

727
00:10:10,576 --> 00:10:10,876
whether

728
00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:11,544
it's applied

729
00:10:11,544 --> 00:10:13,012
to energy

730
00:10:13,112 --> 00:10:14,480
or aerospace

731
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,481
systems.

732
00:10:15,481 --> 00:10:16,682
And then maybe

733
00:10:16,682 --> 00:10:18,150
the last one where

734
00:10:18,384 --> 00:10:18,718
this is

735
00:10:18,718 --> 00:10:19,185
definitely

736
00:10:19,185 --> 00:10:20,019
getting more

737
00:10:20,019 --> 00:10:20,519
outside

738
00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:21,153
my expertise.

739
00:10:21,153 --> 00:10:21,721
I see

740
00:10:21,721 --> 00:10:22,188
other people

741
00:10:22,188 --> 00:10:22,922
doing incredible

742
00:10:22,922 --> 00:10:24,223
work here, but

743
00:10:24,223 --> 00:10:25,024
that would be

744
00:10:25,024 --> 00:10:25,358
kind of

745
00:10:25,358 --> 00:10:26,592
biomedical devices.

746
00:10:26,659 --> 00:10:28,160
So the human body

747
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,428
is not a flat,

748
00:10:29,462 --> 00:10:31,130
rigid object.

749
00:10:31,197 --> 00:10:31,897
It's not going

750
00:10:31,897 --> 00:10:32,398
to interface

751
00:10:32,398 --> 00:10:32,832
that well

752
00:10:32,832 --> 00:10:33,099
with a

753
00:10:33,099 --> 00:10:34,300
traditional PCB.

754
00:10:34,533 --> 00:10:35,034
And so

755
00:10:35,034 --> 00:10:36,235
biomedical devices

756
00:10:36,235 --> 00:10:37,036
is an area

757
00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:38,137
where the 3D

758
00:10:38,137 --> 00:10:39,138
structure,

759
00:10:39,138 --> 00:10:40,773
the materials

760
00:10:40,773 --> 00:10:41,874
compatibility

761
00:10:41,874 --> 00:10:42,575
and some

762
00:10:42,575 --> 00:10:43,275
nontraditional

763
00:10:43,275 --> 00:10:44,377
material sets

764
00:10:44,377 --> 00:10:44,610
would be

765
00:10:44,610 --> 00:10:45,544
very relevant.

766
00:10:45,544 --> 00:10:47,113
And also you get

767
00:10:47,213 --> 00:10:48,147
some benefit

768
00:10:48,147 --> 00:10:49,315
out of that ability

769
00:10:49,315 --> 00:10:50,516
to customize

770
00:10:50,516 --> 00:10:51,450
and kind of have

771
00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:52,652
personalization.

772
00:10:52,718 --> 00:10:53,753
So that kind of

773
00:10:53,753 --> 00:10:54,520
really pairs

774
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,187
well with some of

775
00:10:55,187 --> 00:10:56,055
the capabilities

776
00:10:56,055 --> 00:10:56,522
for print

777
00:10:56,522 --> 00:10:57,657
electronics.

778
00:10:57,657 --> 00:10:58,124
As I said

779
00:10:58,124 --> 00:10:58,791
that I'm not

780
00:10:58,791 --> 00:10:59,358
the person

781
00:10:59,358 --> 00:11:00,159
to talk

782
00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:00,693
at length

783
00:11:00,693 --> 00:11:01,193
about that,

784
00:11:01,193 --> 00:11:01,827
but there are

785
00:11:01,827 --> 00:11:02,595
some great people

786
00:11:02,595 --> 00:11:03,062
working in

787
00:11:03,062 --> 00:11:03,896
that area

788
00:11:03,896 --> 00:11:04,397
and there's

789
00:11:04,397 --> 00:11:04,797
definitely

790
00:11:04,797 --> 00:11:05,698
a lot of content.

791
00:11:05,698 --> 00:11:06,332
We've had a couple

792
00:11:06,332 --> 00:11:06,532
of them

793
00:11:06,532 --> 00:11:07,900
on the program, but

794
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:08,934
so really like

795
00:11:08,934 --> 00:11:09,735
getting able

796
00:11:09,735 --> 00:11:10,970
to like each of our

797
00:11:10,970 --> 00:11:11,504
shoulders

798
00:11:11,504 --> 00:11:12,038
are different,

799
00:11:12,038 --> 00:11:12,571
for example,

800
00:11:12,571 --> 00:11:13,272
or the shape

801
00:11:13,272 --> 00:11:13,839
of our brain

802
00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:14,240
or something

803
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:14,774
like that.

804
00:11:14,774 --> 00:11:15,274
Being able

805
00:11:15,274 --> 00:11:16,242
to tailor

806
00:11:16,242 --> 00:11:16,776
the device

807
00:11:16,776 --> 00:11:17,510
for the

808
00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:18,678
specific person

809
00:11:18,678 --> 00:11:19,145
that needs

810
00:11:19,145 --> 00:11:20,079
the specific

811
00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:20,613
kind of

812
00:11:20,613 --> 00:11:21,814
use of the device.

813
00:11:22,081 --> 00:11:23,349
So thinking about

814
00:11:23,349 --> 00:11:23,549
this

815
00:11:23,549 --> 00:11:24,383
commercialization

816
00:11:24,383 --> 00:11:24,817
and future

817
00:11:24,817 --> 00:11:25,618
of this technology,

818
00:11:25,618 --> 00:11:26,218
you have a spin

819
00:11:26,218 --> 00:11:26,819
off company,

820
00:11:26,819 --> 00:11:28,020
Contour Circuits.

821
00:11:28,254 --> 00:11:28,921
Can you talk

822
00:11:28,921 --> 00:11:29,422
a little bit

823
00:11:29,422 --> 00:11:30,856
about this process

824
00:11:30,856 --> 00:11:31,457
of getting

825
00:11:31,457 --> 00:11:32,658
a company going

826
00:11:32,658 --> 00:11:33,192
and kind of

827
00:11:33,192 --> 00:11:33,592
what you're

828
00:11:33,592 --> 00:11:34,560
trying to do there?

829
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:35,761
Yeah, of course

830
00:11:35,761 --> 00:11:36,762
we formed

831
00:11:36,762 --> 00:11:37,830
Contour Circuits

832
00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:38,898
about a year

833
00:11:38,898 --> 00:11:40,032
and a half ago now,

834
00:11:40,032 --> 00:11:41,067
so most of the

835
00:11:41,067 --> 00:11:42,435
story is unwritten,

836
00:11:42,635 --> 00:11:43,869
but it's been an

837
00:11:44,003 --> 00:11:44,670
adventure

838
00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:45,271
along the way.

839
00:11:45,271 --> 00:11:46,272
So I had

840
00:11:46,272 --> 00:11:47,106
the fortune

841
00:11:47,106 --> 00:11:47,473
have a

842
00:11:47,473 --> 00:11:48,374
really outstanding

843
00:11:48,374 --> 00:11:49,108
grad student,

844
00:11:49,108 --> 00:11:50,342
Jeremy Rurup,

845
00:11:50,342 --> 00:11:51,343
who was actually

846
00:11:51,343 --> 00:11:51,877
the first

847
00:11:51,877 --> 00:11:52,378
grad student

848
00:11:52,378 --> 00:11:52,778
that I

849
00:11:52,778 --> 00:11:53,746
hired into my lab

850
00:11:53,746 --> 00:11:54,313
when I

851
00:11:54,313 --> 00:11:55,514
joined Iowa State.

852
00:11:55,881 --> 00:11:57,516
And I'd say

853
00:11:57,516 --> 00:11:58,250
without him,

854
00:11:58,250 --> 00:11:59,051
this probably

855
00:11:59,051 --> 00:11:59,351
wouldn't

856
00:11:59,351 --> 00:11:59,752
have happened.

857
00:11:59,752 --> 00:12:00,453
But he has

858
00:12:00,453 --> 00:12:01,353
the technical

859
00:12:01,353 --> 00:12:02,621
skills, the drive,

860
00:12:02,788 --> 00:12:03,589
and just

861
00:12:03,589 --> 00:12:04,623
general competence

862
00:12:04,623 --> 00:12:05,591
to spearhead

863
00:12:05,591 --> 00:12:06,025
the effort.

864
00:12:06,025 --> 00:12:07,960
So we spun off

865
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,028
Contour Circuits,

866
00:12:09,028 --> 00:12:09,462
and it's

867
00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:10,663
really got two

868
00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:11,430
different

869
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:12,298
focus areas

870
00:12:12,298 --> 00:12:12,832
that are very

871
00:12:12,832 --> 00:12:13,332
related.

872
00:12:13,332 --> 00:12:13,999
And both of them

873
00:12:13,999 --> 00:12:14,700
I've touched on.

874
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:15,901
So one is the

875
00:12:16,068 --> 00:12:17,036
process control

876
00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:17,837
and process

877
00:12:17,837 --> 00:12:18,337
monitoring

878
00:12:18,337 --> 00:12:18,904
for aerosol

879
00:12:18,904 --> 00:12:19,638
jet printing.

880
00:12:19,638 --> 00:12:20,840
So getting

881
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:21,674
manufacturing

882
00:12:21,674 --> 00:12:22,475
reliability

883
00:12:22,475 --> 00:12:23,275
and maturity

884
00:12:23,275 --> 00:12:24,610
for this process.

885
00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:25,544
And the other

886
00:12:25,544 --> 00:12:26,112
is more

887
00:12:26,112 --> 00:12:26,979
the conformal

888
00:12:26,979 --> 00:12:27,747
printing.

889
00:12:27,747 --> 00:12:28,380
So some of

890
00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:28,814
the tools

891
00:12:28,814 --> 00:12:30,082
we've developed for

892
00:12:30,149 --> 00:12:31,250
printing onto 3D

893
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:31,784
surfaces,

894
00:12:31,784 --> 00:12:32,384
we think there's

895
00:12:32,384 --> 00:12:32,785
a lot

896
00:12:32,785 --> 00:12:33,986
of potential there.

897
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,187
And to a

898
00:12:35,187 --> 00:12:35,755
large extent

899
00:12:35,755 --> 00:12:36,956
some of this is

900
00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:37,890
especially with

901
00:12:37,890 --> 00:12:38,424
the process

902
00:12:38,424 --> 00:12:39,658
control work,

903
00:12:39,959 --> 00:12:40,893
we're kind of

904
00:12:40,893 --> 00:12:41,293
getting to

905
00:12:41,293 --> 00:12:41,761
the limit

906
00:12:41,761 --> 00:12:42,895
of what makes sense

907
00:12:42,895 --> 00:12:43,562
to do

908
00:12:43,562 --> 00:12:43,896
in a

909
00:12:43,896 --> 00:12:44,797
university lab,

910
00:12:44,797 --> 00:12:45,731
where you get

911
00:12:45,731 --> 00:12:46,699
hit that transition

912
00:12:46,699 --> 00:12:48,033
from fundamental

913
00:12:48,033 --> 00:12:48,601
research

914
00:12:48,601 --> 00:12:49,335
to something

915
00:12:49,335 --> 00:12:50,136
that's going to be

916
00:12:50,136 --> 00:12:51,303
hopefully more,

917
00:12:51,303 --> 00:12:52,138
more applied

918
00:12:52,138 --> 00:12:53,706
and impactful.

919
00:12:53,839 --> 00:12:54,473
And so

920
00:12:54,473 --> 00:12:55,374
it made sense

921
00:12:55,374 --> 00:12:56,575
to have

922
00:12:56,575 --> 00:12:57,443
this spin

923
00:12:57,443 --> 00:12:58,110
out company

924
00:12:58,110 --> 00:12:58,577
to be able

925
00:12:58,577 --> 00:12:59,145
to explore

926
00:12:59,145 --> 00:12:59,345
that

927
00:12:59,345 --> 00:13:00,279
commercialization

928
00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:00,813
potential

929
00:13:00,813 --> 00:13:02,014
more explicitly.

930
00:13:02,348 --> 00:13:03,215
For both of those,

931
00:13:03,215 --> 00:13:03,616
we really

932
00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:05,017
all combination

933
00:13:05,017 --> 00:13:05,651
that those

934
00:13:05,651 --> 00:13:05,985
kind of

935
00:13:05,985 --> 00:13:06,919
two capabilities

936
00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:08,154
where we focus on

937
00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:09,221
manufacturing

938
00:13:09,221 --> 00:13:10,422
process expertise

939
00:13:10,422 --> 00:13:11,056
will allow us

940
00:13:11,056 --> 00:13:12,291
to support people

941
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:12,892
who are interested

942
00:13:12,892 --> 00:13:13,092
in the

943
00:13:13,092 --> 00:13:13,759
applications.

944
00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:14,393
Not everyone

945
00:13:14,393 --> 00:13:15,194
is going to

946
00:13:15,194 --> 00:13:15,494
be able

947
00:13:15,494 --> 00:13:16,228
to go out there

948
00:13:16,228 --> 00:13:17,797
and become

949
00:13:17,797 --> 00:13:18,297
an expert

950
00:13:18,297 --> 00:13:19,698
in conformal

951
00:13:19,732 --> 00:13:20,666
printed electronics

952
00:13:20,666 --> 00:13:20,900
and the

953
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:22,268
manufacturing process,

954
00:13:22,701 --> 00:13:23,669
but there are

955
00:13:23,669 --> 00:13:24,136
hopefully

956
00:13:24,136 --> 00:13:24,870
a lot of people

957
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:25,571
who would find

958
00:13:25,571 --> 00:13:26,305
value in that,

959
00:13:26,305 --> 00:13:27,239
whether they're,

960
00:13:27,239 --> 00:13:27,473
you know,

961
00:13:27,473 --> 00:13:28,841
designing devices

962
00:13:29,074 --> 00:13:29,675
for end

963
00:13:29,675 --> 00:13:30,910
use applications.

964
00:13:31,210 --> 00:13:31,977
We want to be able

965
00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:32,678
to help them

966
00:13:32,678 --> 00:13:33,612
and enable them

967
00:13:33,612 --> 00:13:34,580
to get the benefits

968
00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:35,481
of conformal

969
00:13:35,481 --> 00:13:35,881
printing

970
00:13:35,881 --> 00:13:37,016
electronics

971
00:13:37,016 --> 00:13:37,616
without having

972
00:13:37,616 --> 00:13:38,150
to become

973
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:39,385
experts and selves.

974
00:13:39,752 --> 00:13:40,953
Very cool.

975
00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:41,854
Can you talk

976
00:13:41,854 --> 00:13:42,254
a little bit

977
00:13:42,254 --> 00:13:43,455
about what impact

978
00:13:43,522 --> 00:13:44,490
NSF support

979
00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:44,890
has had

980
00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:45,991
on your career?

981
00:13:45,991 --> 00:13:46,392
Probably

982
00:13:46,392 --> 00:13:47,226
the first part of

983
00:13:47,226 --> 00:13:48,427
that is

984
00:13:48,427 --> 00:13:49,195
very vague

985
00:13:49,195 --> 00:13:50,396
in general, but

986
00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:51,096
NSF does

987
00:13:51,096 --> 00:13:52,064
an incredible job

988
00:13:52,064 --> 00:13:53,465
of supporting early

989
00:13:53,465 --> 00:13:53,732
stage

990
00:13:53,732 --> 00:13:54,333
fundamental

991
00:13:54,333 --> 00:13:54,834
research,

992
00:13:54,834 --> 00:13:56,335
and without that,

993
00:13:56,468 --> 00:13:57,002
the stuff

994
00:13:57,002 --> 00:13:57,269
that I

995
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:57,903
would be doing

996
00:13:57,903 --> 00:13:58,537
and the kind

997
00:13:58,537 --> 00:13:59,471
of progress

998
00:13:59,471 --> 00:13:59,839
that we're

999
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:00,172
trying to

1000
00:14:00,172 --> 00:14:00,739
build on

1001
00:14:00,739 --> 00:14:01,707
over many years

1002
00:14:01,707 --> 00:14:02,308
just wouldn't

1003
00:14:02,308 --> 00:14:02,675
exist.

1004
00:14:02,675 --> 00:14:03,275
So we're

1005
00:14:03,275 --> 00:14:03,909
building on a

1006
00:14:03,909 --> 00:14:04,677
lot of progress

1007
00:14:04,677 --> 00:14:05,978
that's due

1008
00:14:06,078 --> 00:14:07,680
to NSF investments

1009
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:08,881
decades ago,

1010
00:14:08,948 --> 00:14:10,482
and I'd be remiss

1011
00:14:10,482 --> 00:14:11,217
if I didn't

1012
00:14:11,217 --> 00:14:12,418
recognize that.

1013
00:14:12,718 --> 00:14:13,352
Underlying

1014
00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:14,119
all of this,

1015
00:14:14,119 --> 00:14:14,386
there's

1016
00:14:14,386 --> 00:14:14,787
a really

1017
00:14:14,787 --> 00:14:15,788
broad foundation

1018
00:14:15,788 --> 00:14:17,523
that NSF supports

1019
00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:19,258
for the

1020
00:14:19,258 --> 00:14:19,558
kind of

1021
00:14:19,558 --> 00:14:20,025
technical

1022
00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:20,626
development,

1023
00:14:20,626 --> 00:14:21,460
the conformal

1024
00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:22,094
printing work

1025
00:14:22,094 --> 00:14:22,895
that we do that

1026
00:14:22,895 --> 00:14:23,662
that started

1027
00:14:23,662 --> 00:14:24,396
with an NSF

1028
00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:25,598
research grant.

1029
00:14:25,598 --> 00:14:26,799
I was not

1030
00:14:26,832 --> 00:14:27,466
in the

1031
00:14:27,466 --> 00:14:27,933
conformal

1032
00:14:27,933 --> 00:14:29,034
printing space

1033
00:14:29,034 --> 00:14:29,602
at all

1034
00:14:29,602 --> 00:14:30,269
prior to that,

1035
00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:31,070
and that allowed

1036
00:14:31,070 --> 00:14:32,371
us to try out

1037
00:14:32,371 --> 00:14:33,305
this new approach

1038
00:14:33,305 --> 00:14:33,839
to motion,

1039
00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:34,306
planning,

1040
00:14:34,306 --> 00:14:35,040
a new approach

1041
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:35,274
to the

1042
00:14:35,274 --> 00:14:36,041
printing system

1043
00:14:36,041 --> 00:14:36,742
configuration,

1044
00:14:36,742 --> 00:14:37,142
and really

1045
00:14:37,142 --> 00:14:38,344
understand the

1046
00:14:38,344 --> 00:14:38,811
physics of

1047
00:14:38,811 --> 00:14:39,578
the process

1048
00:14:39,578 --> 00:14:40,112
to be able

1049
00:14:40,112 --> 00:14:40,880
to tailor

1050
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,081
that better.

1051
00:14:42,314 --> 00:14:43,082
And then.

1052
00:14:43,082 --> 00:14:44,149
You brought up the

1053
00:14:44,149 --> 00:14:44,783
the startup

1054
00:14:44,783 --> 00:14:45,951
company NSF

1055
00:14:45,951 --> 00:14:46,418
is very

1056
00:14:46,418 --> 00:14:47,119
highly relevant

1057
00:14:47,119 --> 00:14:47,586
for that.

1058
00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:48,787
Where, you know,

1059
00:14:49,154 --> 00:14:49,755
Jeremy,

1060
00:14:49,755 --> 00:14:50,623
my former student

1061
00:14:50,623 --> 00:14:51,824
who is spearheading

1062
00:14:51,824 --> 00:14:52,358
that company,

1063
00:14:52,358 --> 00:14:52,625
and I,

1064
00:14:52,625 --> 00:14:53,692
we participate

1065
00:14:53,692 --> 00:14:54,260
in the

1066
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:55,294
national NSF

1067
00:14:55,294 --> 00:14:56,495
I-Corps program

1068
00:14:56,562 --> 00:14:57,396
last summer.

1069
00:14:57,396 --> 00:14:58,264
So before that,

1070
00:14:58,264 --> 00:14:59,031
we did the local

1071
00:14:59,031 --> 00:14:59,665
one here

1072
00:14:59,665 --> 00:15:00,432
at Iowa State

1073
00:15:00,432 --> 00:15:01,467
that was also

1074
00:15:01,467 --> 00:15:02,668
supported by NSF.

1075
00:15:02,868 --> 00:15:04,270
And that really

1076
00:15:04,770 --> 00:15:05,971
got us

1077
00:15:06,038 --> 00:15:06,906
more familiar

1078
00:15:06,906 --> 00:15:07,706
and more excited

1079
00:15:07,706 --> 00:15:08,173
about that

1080
00:15:08,173 --> 00:15:09,074
commercialization

1081
00:15:09,074 --> 00:15:09,541
aspect.

1082
00:15:09,541 --> 00:15:10,442
There were

1083
00:15:10,442 --> 00:15:10,910
a few

1084
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:11,477
different things

1085
00:15:11,477 --> 00:15:11,810
that that

1086
00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:13,078
I-Corps program

1087
00:15:13,345 --> 00:15:14,546
hit really well

1088
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:15,781
at are enabling

1089
00:15:15,781 --> 00:15:16,982
to us from

1090
00:15:17,383 --> 00:15:18,317
basic training

1091
00:15:18,317 --> 00:15:19,451
in entrepreneurship

1092
00:15:19,451 --> 00:15:20,352
and understanding

1093
00:15:20,352 --> 00:15:21,353
the terminology,

1094
00:15:21,353 --> 00:15:21,921
understanding

1095
00:15:21,921 --> 00:15:23,022
how to think about

1096
00:15:23,022 --> 00:15:23,956
a business plan

1097
00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:24,256
and an

1098
00:15:24,256 --> 00:15:25,190
ecosystem map

1099
00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:26,358
and start

1100
00:15:26,358 --> 00:15:26,859
getting away

1101
00:15:26,859 --> 00:15:28,160
from the technical

1102
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:28,560
side of

1103
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:29,762
the technology

1104
00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:30,863
if you're trying to

1105
00:15:30,863 --> 00:15:32,064
commercialize it.

1106
00:15:32,131 --> 00:15:32,531
And then

1107
00:15:32,531 --> 00:15:33,198
the other part of

1108
00:15:33,198 --> 00:15:33,799
that is

1109
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:34,433
a really

1110
00:15:34,433 --> 00:15:35,234
big emphasis

1111
00:15:35,234 --> 00:15:36,068
on customer

1112
00:15:36,068 --> 00:15:36,602
discovery,

1113
00:15:36,602 --> 00:15:37,236
getting us out

1114
00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:37,803
of the lab,

1115
00:15:37,803 --> 00:15:38,570
getting us talking

1116
00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:38,938
to people

1117
00:15:38,938 --> 00:15:39,638
and industry

1118
00:15:39,638 --> 00:15:40,506
so we understand

1119
00:15:40,506 --> 00:15:41,707
where the actual

1120
00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:42,942
pinpoints are,

1121
00:15:43,142 --> 00:15:44,376
and we can tailor

1122
00:15:44,376 --> 00:15:45,577
what we're doing to

1123
00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:46,812
meet an actual need

1124
00:15:46,812 --> 00:15:47,579
that's out there,

1125
00:15:47,579 --> 00:15:49,181
rather than what

1126
00:15:49,181 --> 00:15:50,749
we might project

1127
00:15:50,749 --> 00:15:51,784
as a need on

1128
00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:53,519
to this amorphous

1129
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:54,853
space of industry.

1130
00:15:55,154 --> 00:15:55,754
What has

1131
00:15:55,754 --> 00:15:56,622
that experience

1132
00:15:56,622 --> 00:15:56,989
been like?

1133
00:15:56,989 --> 00:15:57,423
Because it's

1134
00:15:57,423 --> 00:15:58,357
really

1135
00:15:58,357 --> 00:15:59,191
fundamentally

1136
00:15:59,191 --> 00:15:59,692
a different

1137
00:15:59,692 --> 00:16:00,392
language,

1138
00:16:00,392 --> 00:16:00,793
kind of

1139
00:16:00,793 --> 00:16:01,760
moving out of

1140
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,561
the research

1141
00:16:02,561 --> 00:16:03,462
and the like,

1142
00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:04,596
the technical parts

1143
00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:04,997
like you're

1144
00:16:04,997 --> 00:16:05,597
talking about

1145
00:16:05,597 --> 00:16:06,799
and just kind of

1146
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:07,232
moving

1147
00:16:07,232 --> 00:16:07,700
into the world

1148
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:08,334
of business.

1149
00:16:08,334 --> 00:16:08,934
It's just a

1150
00:16:08,934 --> 00:16:09,401
different

1151
00:16:09,401 --> 00:16:10,469
environment.

1152
00:16:10,469 --> 00:16:11,136
It's very

1153
00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:12,371
different, and it's

1154
00:16:12,438 --> 00:16:13,973
been very valuable.

1155
00:16:13,973 --> 00:16:14,239
I mean,

1156
00:16:14,239 --> 00:16:14,940
I probably

1157
00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:15,975
can't overstate

1158
00:16:15,975 --> 00:16:16,642
the amount

1159
00:16:16,642 --> 00:16:17,443
that it has

1160
00:16:17,443 --> 00:16:18,610
reflected back

1161
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:20,479
onto how I approach

1162
00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:21,680
research here.

1163
00:16:22,081 --> 00:16:22,982
I think I have

1164
00:16:22,982 --> 00:16:23,782
a much better

1165
00:16:23,782 --> 00:16:25,117
understanding of

1166
00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:26,652
what the needs

1167
00:16:26,652 --> 00:16:27,019
are out

1168
00:16:27,019 --> 00:16:27,586
in industry,

1169
00:16:27,586 --> 00:16:28,721
what the path is

1170
00:16:28,721 --> 00:16:29,955
to get a technology

1171
00:16:29,955 --> 00:16:30,823
out of the lab

1172
00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:32,458
and into practice.

1173
00:16:32,825 --> 00:16:33,759
And that

1174
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:34,827
definitely changes

1175
00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:36,028
how I approach

1176
00:16:36,061 --> 00:16:37,096
research grants

1177
00:16:37,096 --> 00:16:38,530
at the university

1178
00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:39,398
and things

1179
00:16:39,398 --> 00:16:39,698
that I'm

1180
00:16:39,698 --> 00:16:40,299
trying to do

1181
00:16:40,299 --> 00:16:41,367
over the next 5

1182
00:16:41,367 --> 00:16:42,568
or 10 years here.

1183
00:16:43,068 --> 00:16:44,269
It's

1184
00:16:44,269 --> 00:16:44,870
been quite

1185
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:45,904
the experience

1186
00:16:45,904 --> 00:16:47,539
and just

1187
00:16:47,573 --> 00:16:48,574
bringing me back to

1188
00:16:48,574 --> 00:16:49,308
there's always

1189
00:16:49,308 --> 00:16:49,842
so much

1190
00:16:49,842 --> 00:16:50,843
more to learn,

1191
00:16:50,843 --> 00:16:51,877
and that's

1192
00:16:51,877 --> 00:16:52,277
what I have

1193
00:16:52,277 --> 00:16:52,878
to love about

1194
00:16:52,878 --> 00:16:53,479
this job.

1195
00:16:53,479 --> 00:16:54,346
So thinking

1196
00:16:54,346 --> 00:16:55,314
about that next

1197
00:16:55,314 --> 00:16:56,148
5 to 10 years,

1198
00:16:56,148 --> 00:16:56,782
for my last

1199
00:16:56,782 --> 00:16:57,483
question here

1200
00:16:57,483 --> 00:16:57,716
today,

1201
00:16:57,716 --> 00:16:58,584
I want to ask you

1202
00:16:58,584 --> 00:16:59,418
about the future

1203
00:16:59,418 --> 00:16:59,952
and kind of

1204
00:16:59,952 --> 00:17:00,953
what are you hoping

1205
00:17:00,953 --> 00:17:02,354
to figure out

1206
00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:02,988
or work on

1207
00:17:02,988 --> 00:17:03,622
or explore

1208
00:17:03,622 --> 00:17:04,056
in the next

1209
00:17:04,056 --> 00:17:04,857
few years?

1210
00:17:04,857 --> 00:17:06,425
There's never just

1211
00:17:06,425 --> 00:17:07,292
one thing,

1212
00:17:07,292 --> 00:17:07,893
always a few

1213
00:17:07,893 --> 00:17:08,394
different things

1214
00:17:08,394 --> 00:17:08,694
going on.

1215
00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:09,294
I think on

1216
00:17:09,294 --> 00:17:10,195
the technical side,

1217
00:17:10,195 --> 00:17:11,196
the conformal

1218
00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:11,830
printing work

1219
00:17:11,830 --> 00:17:13,032
has really been

1220
00:17:13,298 --> 00:17:14,266
something that's

1221
00:17:14,266 --> 00:17:15,000
taken off

1222
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:15,868
in my lab,

1223
00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:16,869
and I've gotten

1224
00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:18,070
pretty invested

1225
00:17:18,070 --> 00:17:18,337
in that.

1226
00:17:18,337 --> 00:17:18,937
So making

1227
00:17:18,937 --> 00:17:19,872
that process

1228
00:17:19,872 --> 00:17:20,973
faster, easier,

1229
00:17:20,973 --> 00:17:21,907
and more reliable,

1230
00:17:21,907 --> 00:17:22,741
there's

1231
00:17:22,741 --> 00:17:23,876
definitely work

1232
00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:25,077
to be done there.

1233
00:17:25,077 --> 00:17:25,544
We've had

1234
00:17:25,544 --> 00:17:26,278
some recent

1235
00:17:26,278 --> 00:17:27,479
work there

1236
00:17:27,479 --> 00:17:28,680
pushing towards

1237
00:17:28,981 --> 00:17:29,681
high temperature

1238
00:17:29,681 --> 00:17:30,883
applications.

1239
00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:31,517
I think

1240
00:17:31,517 --> 00:17:32,451
that gets back

1241
00:17:32,451 --> 00:17:33,318
to you.

1242
00:17:33,318 --> 00:17:34,520
Asked about

1243
00:17:34,787 --> 00:17:35,821
application areas

1244
00:17:35,821 --> 00:17:36,522
and potential

1245
00:17:36,522 --> 00:17:37,322
use cases,

1246
00:17:37,322 --> 00:17:38,824
and I'd say

1247
00:17:38,824 --> 00:17:40,025
most of my

1248
00:17:40,292 --> 00:17:41,493
early career

1249
00:17:41,493 --> 00:17:41,960
work was

1250
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:42,194
really

1251
00:17:42,194 --> 00:17:43,162
understanding

1252
00:17:43,162 --> 00:17:43,996
the manufacturing

1253
00:17:43,996 --> 00:17:44,863
process.

1254
00:17:44,863 --> 00:17:45,697
And as we're

1255
00:17:45,697 --> 00:17:46,698
building that up,

1256
00:17:46,698 --> 00:17:47,132
we're going

1257
00:17:47,132 --> 00:17:47,633
to be trying

1258
00:17:47,633 --> 00:17:48,233
to push more

1259
00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:49,401
into applications

1260
00:17:49,401 --> 00:17:50,669
in this high

1261
00:17:50,669 --> 00:17:51,303
temperature,

1262
00:17:51,303 --> 00:17:51,937
structurally

1263
00:17:51,937 --> 00:17:52,471
integrated

1264
00:17:52,471 --> 00:17:53,038
electronics

1265
00:17:53,038 --> 00:17:53,772
and sensors

1266
00:17:53,772 --> 00:17:54,907
is a really

1267
00:17:54,907 --> 00:17:56,241
logical area

1268
00:17:56,241 --> 00:17:57,543
to push into.

1269
00:17:58,510 --> 00:17:59,745
And then for the

1270
00:17:59,878 --> 00:18:00,813
commercialization

1271
00:18:00,813 --> 00:18:01,580
side of things,

1272
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:02,781
a lot of it is

1273
00:18:03,015 --> 00:18:03,882
things like the

1274
00:18:03,882 --> 00:18:05,050
small business

1275
00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:06,318
research projects,

1276
00:18:06,518 --> 00:18:07,853
SBIR STTR

1277
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:08,987
type projects

1278
00:18:08,987 --> 00:18:10,155
to keep

1279
00:18:10,155 --> 00:18:11,123
pushing on

1280
00:18:11,123 --> 00:18:11,857
different,

1281
00:18:11,857 --> 00:18:12,157
I guess,

1282
00:18:12,157 --> 00:18:13,225
understanding where

1283
00:18:13,225 --> 00:18:13,659
technical

1284
00:18:13,659 --> 00:18:14,093
needs are,

1285
00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:14,760
getting more

1286
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,260
connections

1287
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:16,261
with industry,

1288
00:18:16,261 --> 00:18:16,895
and hopefully

1289
00:18:16,895 --> 00:18:18,197
getting into some

1290
00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:19,231
low volume

1291
00:18:19,231 --> 00:18:20,299
prototyping work

1292
00:18:20,299 --> 00:18:20,933
to support

1293
00:18:20,933 --> 00:18:21,333
people

1294
00:18:21,333 --> 00:18:22,234
who are doing

1295
00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:22,734
broader

1296
00:18:22,734 --> 00:18:23,135
research

1297
00:18:23,135 --> 00:18:24,002
and development

1298
00:18:24,002 --> 00:18:24,703
and have an

1299
00:18:24,703 --> 00:18:25,104
interest

1300
00:18:25,104 --> 00:18:25,938
in conformal

1301
00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:26,338
printing

1302
00:18:26,338 --> 00:18:26,939
electronics,

1303
00:18:26,939 --> 00:18:27,873
but maybe

1304
00:18:27,873 --> 00:18:28,774
don't want to

1305
00:18:28,774 --> 00:18:29,141
get their

1306
00:18:29,141 --> 00:18:29,875
hands dirty

1307
00:18:29,875 --> 00:18:30,542
on the

1308
00:18:30,542 --> 00:18:31,276
manufacturing

1309
00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:32,377
process itself.

1310
00:18:32,377 --> 00:18:32,878
Special

1311
00:18:32,878 --> 00:18:33,278
thanks to

1312
00:18:33,278 --> 00:18:34,079
Ethan Secor.

1313
00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:34,746
For the Discovery

1314
00:18:34,746 --> 00:18:35,347
Files, I'm

1315
00:18:35,347 --> 00:18:36,014
Nate Pottker.

1316
00:18:36,014 --> 00:18:36,582
Watch video

1317
00:18:36,582 --> 00:18:36,882
versions

1318
00:18:36,882 --> 00:18:37,182
of these

1319
00:18:37,182 --> 00:18:37,883
conversations

1320
00:18:37,883 --> 00:18:39,351
on our @NSFscience

1321
00:18:39,351 --> 00:18:40,018
YouTube channel.

1322
00:18:40,018 --> 00:18:40,786
Please subscribe

1323
00:18:40,786 --> 00:18:41,220
wherever you

1324
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:42,054
get podcasts

1325
00:18:42,054 --> 00:18:42,621
and if you like

1326
00:18:42,621 --> 00:18:43,422
our program, share

1327
00:18:43,422 --> 00:18:44,123
with a friend

1328
00:18:44,123 --> 00:18:44,790
and consider

1329
00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:45,991
leaving our review.

1330
00:18:47,226 --> 00:18:47,693
Discover

1331
00:18:47,693 --> 00:18:48,193
how the U.S.

1332
00:18:48,193 --> 00:18:48,861
National Science

1333
00:18:48,861 --> 00:18:49,294
Foundation

1334
00:18:49,294 --> 00:18:49,895
is advancing

1335
00:18:49,895 --> 00:18:50,395
research

1336
00:18:50,395 --> 00:18:51,597
at NSF.gov.