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Speaker 1: It's nice, I'm telling you easy. Boston's News Radio.
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Speaker 2: All right, we were talking during the eight o'clock hour about this ironically being National Consumer Protection Week, and that segues pretty nicely into this conversation I'm about to have with Cave Crockford. Cave, first of all, welcome back to Night Side, Kate. How are you this evening?
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Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, great to be with you. I'm doing okay. How are you?
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Speaker 2: I'm doing just great. Kate is the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, and she's been doing this for a long time. I can remember more than a few years ago and we had some conversations in our studio about the whole questions of security versus privacy, and we can we can talk about that probably all night long. But Kate, it's only gotten worse because as technology has improved, and we know there were just so many things to talk about. Every piece of information that we give up either to our doctors or to our hospital, all of that somehow ends up out there in the ether, and there were really no controls here. So I think what we want to talk about tonight is basically how we protect our privacy in this I would call it the Brave New World. It's sort of Eldus Huxley number two or number four or five. This is something you deal with every day. Last week we had the big story about anthropic, which I know just a little bit about. So let's start off with the basics, because we have some time here, and I want to give people an opportunity to ask you questions. How bad is it out there these days where our information is available in so many places, and actually people are making money off the selling of our information.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean you said it in your introduction. Technology has fast outpaced our legal protections in terms of both consumer privacy law and then on the other side also how the government can invade our privacy using new technologies, and often those two issues are related. Actually, but let's start with consumer protection. Yeah, I was just going to say, if you want to, we can start by talking about the consumer side. You know, folks are obviously aware that for the past fifteen to twenty years, we've been sold this story by Silicon Valley that essentially says, you know, we will give you all of these services and products in exchange for your personal information, and we will use your personal information to make hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars for private industry. And that seemed to be a deal that people were comfortable with for a few years in the beginning, until it became clear that these tech companies amassing so much sensitive information about everyone who uses cell phones in the Internet puts all of us at risk and allows those companies to control us in ways that may maybe aren't immediately obvious. So back in twenty seventeen, obviously there was the Camerage Analyticas scandal. That was the first time that that involved Facebook essentially working with this company called camerag Analytica and the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen to essentially turn Facebook's digital marketing and consumer surveillance apparatus into a political tool for the Trump campaign. They were using the data that Facebook collects about people to target potential voters with very specific messages tailored to those specific people, and that creeped a lot of people out, I think for good reason, because it's one thing, if you know, Facebook wants to sell you a pair of shoes, or a Google wants to sell you a mattress or something like that, using all of the data that they collect about you. It's something else if they want to sell you a political candidate and do it in a way that takes advantage of all of the information that they have about you and your interests and your family. You know, how much money you make, where you live, what your religious practices may be, et cetera. So that I think was the first time that a lot of people in this country thought, WHOA, you know, I don't know.
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Speaker 2: Let me just let me just slow let me just slowly down there, because they want people to understand exactly what you're talking about. So what that particular case. Again, as I think I understand that, but as I think you understand it better than me. The Trump campaign worked a relationship with this company that had information about people. So if hypothetically, and if I'm using a bad hypothetical, tell me, if they knew that someone was a gun owner or a big gun advocate, and they thought that people who held that point of view would be more likely to vote for the Trump campaign, they were able to glean their information sources and present names and ways to contact people who might be consistent with the campaign on let's say, guns or Second Amendment or on religious attendance at church. Is that how granular it became?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So here's another way of thinking about it. Look, you know, if a political campaign wants to target voters using Facebook's data, they can target and this gets true for any political campaign. They could target people just as you said, who maybe liked the NRA's page or something like that on Facebook, ye with ads that talk about how great that candidate is going to be for gun rights right, And maybe that same person has liked pages maybe they have sort of unorthodox politics, they're kind of a libertarian. Maybe they've also liked pages that are supportive of a woman's right to choose right of abortion rights, and so maybe they would not show that person ads saying that the candidate is anti abortion right. So it's a way that you know, this is just one example, of course, of how this information can be used. But the point is that you know, anybody who works with information librarians, you know, intelligence specialists in the CIA, understand that knowledge is power. Right, if you have a lot of information about someone, you can control them, You can manipulate them because you know what makes them tick, you know what vulnerabilities they have, and essentially what we've now seen in Silicon Valley is the development of an entire industry that is focused on conducting surveillance of its users so that they can sell people either products in the case of you know, selling you shoes or a ski jacket or something like that, or you know, potentially sell to political candidates the way to manipulate people to vote for you. You also brought up the issue of data brokers. That's a really important one that I want to highlight for people because it's particularly creepy. One of the things that this online surveillance you know economy has created is a marketplace for the buying and selling of our personal data. And there are there are many data brokers that are involved in this industry. The industry again initially came from the online advertising industry, but has since expanded. And so now right now, there are numerous location data brokers that sell information showing where essentially everyone with a cell phone has been in the past, is presently and you know where we're going to go in the future, and they sell this data to anybody who can afford to pay for it. So there have been stories in a variety of newspapers about the dangers that this causes to national security. You know, somebody take you know. Right now, the US has now engaged in military hostilities against Iran. Things are quite unstable in the Middle East at the moment. There could be innumerable foreign actors currently buying access to cell phone location data showing the present locations and the past patterns of life and habits of key people who work for Raytheon, or folks who work in the Trump administration or the United States military political leaders. Yeah, let me let me.
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Speaker 2: Jump in here with a question. Okay, So let's assume someone, uh, when they travel, and let's say it's somebody who's important, likes to go to a certain hotel chain. They like to go wherever they're going to go that they want to go to the Hilton, or they want to go to the Four Seasons or whatever the hotel hotel chain is. How is that data, person the broker, how does he or she accumulate that data? Is it simply that the cell phone that is assigned to you, that you that you know, that has a specific number and that's assigned to you shows up that you're at the Four Seasons hotel. Here one day, and two days later you're another four Seatson's Hotel, three thousand miles away. I'm just using the four Seasons as an example. Or are they pulling the data from your credit card when you use your credit card to check out of you and they see, oh this this person likes four seasons. Is the source the credit card or is the source actually the ping on the phone?
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Speaker 3: It's the phone. I mean, data workers also sell information about what we buy with your credit cards. But taking the example of location data, that's data that comes directly from your cell phone. So you're probably you know, you've probably noticed that when you travel to a new place, you get targeted advertisements on your phone that are specific to the new location that you're in. You know, so if you go to Las Vegas on vacation, you get off the plane, you open up your phone, you know you're going to see advertisements on Instagram and other websites and platforms that you use that are specific to businesses in Las Vegas.
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Speaker 2: Right, I'll give you another exactly, because if you go out of the country and you go to anywhere, it will tell you that, you know, for a certain amounts you can use your cell phone as if you're in America for the next twenty four hours and you have to sign up, but they know the moment that you land somewhere else.
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Speaker 3: That's right, a cell phone company. Yeah, so your cell phone company knows where you are. The apps on your phone know where you are. And even if you don't use apps that track your location, merely using web you know, we going to visit websites on the browser on your phone can also trigger this location tracking. So it's essentially impossible for consumers to use smartphones without being caught in this location data drag net. And again, you know, what was initially a marketplace that was created to facilitate digital advertising has now morphed into something else or something additional on top of that, which is that the government is buying our cell phone location data from these location broke.
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Speaker 2: Great use of my tax dollars, Kate, I got to take a quick break here. I want to come back to thanks follow up on this. The information that you've given us is so clear it should scare everyone, whatever your political viewpoints. This is this is a transactional concern. No matter where you live or work or travel anywhere in the world, there are people who are able to track that based upon the things that we carry with us voluntarily. This is pretty scary. And we're going to talk about the legislation that should be that I think you're in favor of that that should be adopted nationally and also here in Massachusetts. Will take a break. My guest UH is Cad Crockford. She is the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the America Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. And what I'm hearing from Caid tonight is very troubling. I'm glad that that Stephanie from your office suggested that we do this interview because this is something that is uh, it's beyond politics. It's it's absolutely beyond politics. It's big Brother on steroids. We'll be back on Nightside if you'd like to join the conversation or ask a question six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty, six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Coming right back on Nightside with Caid Crockford.
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Speaker 1: You're on night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z Boston's News Radio.
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Speaker 2: With us is Cad Crockford. Cad is with the Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, American Civil Liberties Union in Massachusetts. She's the director of Technology and Justice Programs. So here's a question, Kate. All this information that's being compiled on us without our knowledge by private businesses, by the government, how long does it stay relevant? Is this something that is you know, there forever, or you know is the does it fall off the web at a certain point in time.
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, one of the other issues we were talking before about how one of the trends that we've seen over the past twenty years is that technology has far outpaced the law protecting our privacy and our civil liberties. The other trend is that it's now basically cheaper to keep information forever than it is to delete it. So these companies have real, really no incentive to get rid of this information if it's potentially valuable, which it is. So, you know, location data again is one of the most sensitive types of personal information that we're seeking to protect in legislation that lawmakers in Massachusetts are working on right now. So in September, the Senate in Massachusetts past Comprehensive Data Privacy legislation. That bill basically does two things. One, it limits in the law how much and what kinds of data companies can collect about you period. So it says essentially, for ordinary types of information like your name, your email address, things of that nature, companies can only collect that information if it's reasonably necessary to provide you the consumer with the product that you've requested. And then for sensitive data that precise to your location data, biometric information, so that's like, you know, information that is unique to each of us, physical traits that are unique to us, or our face, our voice is a biometric believe it or not, are iris for those types of sensitive data as well as information about children, information about your religious practices, you know, your sexual practices, things that I think most people would agree, Yeah, that's especially sensitive for those types of data. What the Senate did was say companies are limited to collecting sensitive data to when it is strictly necessary to provide you, the consumer, with the product that you've requested. So that framework is called data minimization. And basically what we're trying to do is sort of similar to what we have in place with respect to safe food standards. Basically, the idea is when you go to the grocery store, you don't think, oh great, I have to figure out which mil to get and take it home and test it to see if there's a COLLI in it. You just trust that our food safety system regulates businesses. Right. So that's the same idea, is that not every consumer has to be a data privacy expert, that you'd just be protected in the law that's created of minimization.
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Speaker 2: But so this passed the Senate, but past the Senate, but not the House.
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Speaker 3: Not yet. So the second thing that that Senate bill did was ban the sale of sensitive data entirely. And so that's when we get into you know, the precise deal location data again, the biometric information, information about children, things of that nature. The Senate said you can't sell that data period and that's extremely important. What we were hoping the Senate would do but they didn't was include a private right of action to enforce that legislation. Meaning just like with our consumer protection law, which says, you know, you go to a car dealer, ship, the dealer can't lie to you about the car that he's selling you because that is a violation of your rights under ninety three A, the Consumer Protection Statute, and you can personally sue that car dealer if you find out that he lied to you. That's really crucial for trust in our society. We believe that that same enforcement mechanism ought to apply to data privacy legislation, and we didn't get that victory in the Senate. The Senate has their legislation enforced only by the Attorney General. So that's something that we hope the House will address. And to your question, the House is at work right now on very similar legislation that we hope to see enacted by the House within the next month or so. So yes, those are the three core elements that we are hoping that the House will will apply in their data privacy legislation.
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Speaker 2: Well, we want to, we will work with you on this, and again, I'm we're going to take a break here for some news. I'm going to go to a phone call after the break, but I want to just assure you and assure the audience that this is not a one and done as far as I'm concerned, this is something we really have to stay on top of, and whenever you know, I can work with the Massachusetts the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. Obviously there should be a broad support of people. We might disagree on things like public cameras and whether or not we're giving up privacy in favor of security. And the old comment I think was it Ben Franklin. The people who you know, give up privacy for security of the end get neither. I got to take a break, Kate. When I come back, I'm going to ask you the question of you're trying to get it done here in Massachusetts, but shouldn't this really be done at a federal level. I'll give you a chance to come back with your thoughts on that. My name is Dan Ray. We're talking with my guest, who is Kad Crawford. She is the director of Technology and Justice Programs for the Massachusetts Civil Liberties Union. And uh, this has opened up my eyes to a world that I should have known about, and I hope it's opening up some of your eyes as well. Back on Nightside, if you like to join the conversation, ask a question six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty Back on Nightside.
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Speaker 1: Right after this Night Side though with Dan Ray, I'MBZ Boston's News Radio.
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Speaker 2: Back with Kate Crockford, the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the Massachusetts the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts Okay, So my question is, Okay, you guys are doing great work cre in Massachusetts to try to protect people in Massachusetts, but what good does that do us if we don't have federal laws in place. And I'm not trying to reign on the parade here, I'm just trying to say, it's obviously this is a great step that you're undertaking, and people should support you on this, but what are the chances that at the national level we can get some form of federal protection.
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Speaker 3: It's a great question. And my colleagues at the National ACLU and many other organizations that do work at the federal level have been trying to get Congress to pass strong consumer privacy legislation for many, many years now.
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Speaker 4: There was an effort in i believe two congresses ago where they came pretty close those you know that that legislation got derailed at kind of the last minute, and we haven't seen a serious effort since then in Congress to pass strong consumer privacy legislation.
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Speaker 3: So the reality is, you know, it's sort of two things. On the one hand, there are a lot of issues that Massachusetts cannot you know, legislate, right, So for example, you know, Massachusetts can't control ice. You know, the Massachusetts state legislature can, of course pass laws to limit state and local collaboration with ICE. But but Massachusetts lawmakers can't tell the federal government what to do. But this is an example of a scenario in which the Massachusetts legislature actually does have tremendous power and authority. We've seen many other states past consumer privacy laws California, Maryland there. You know, there are many many other states that have done this, some some bet are, some not so great. This is an area where the state has a tremendous amount of power and authority, and so we don't have to wait, fortunately for the federal government to step in, the State of Massachusetts can protect Massachusetts consumers very well. You know the devils in the details, of course, you know what the legislation does, what it says, and again what the enforcement mechanisms look like. Those are all really important questions. But the basic question of can Massachusetts protect consumers in this area, the answer is clearly yes.
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Speaker 2: So when we talk about the difficulty that the National American Civil Liberties Union has had in Washington, I'm assuming that there are people of goodwill in both political parties. I hope that this is a nonpartisan or a bipartisan issue, that it doesn't break down on party lines. Seemingly everything in this country has broken down over in the last several years. Am I right or wrong on that?
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Speaker 4: Guess You're definitely right in terms of where voters are, Voters across the political spectrum support strong consumer privacy legislation. In fact, we did a poll here in Massachusetts a few years ago when we launched this campaign, and we asked voters left right and center, so that's people registered as Republicans, Independence, and Democrats, would you support legislation that, for exams sample, banned companies from selling your precise geolocation data from your cell phone, showing you know where you travel, where your children travel, where you live, where you work, et cetera. Ninety two percent of Massachusetts likely voters said yes.
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Speaker 3: This is not a close question when it comes to where voters are. That's that's absolutely true.
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Speaker 2: I would love to know who that eight percent were on.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll work for data brokers.
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Speaker 2: D Yes, well that's exactly it. Let's let's try to get some phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four ten, thirty six one seven nine, three thirty. This impacts everyone, everyone, Joe and Belmont. Joe, you have a question for Cad Crawford, I believe, go right ahead, Joe.
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Speaker 5: Yes, Uh, on this privacy question I have. I would like some of your listeners to who are in the know, to call in and common on it. My question is the Massachusetts state license with the chip in it? Can the government follow you in the state police and local police follow you also with the chip.
00:25:13
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what you mean by the chip.
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Speaker 2: I think what he might mean is that with the new licenses, when you renew your license, you have to get this, uh, this this federal type of license so that you can get the reality. I think is that what you're referring to, Joe, the reality.
00:25:33
Speaker 5: Just like you know, the chip when the Antichrist comes.
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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. Let's Joe, let's not go off and then never never land here. Let's just talk. If you want to ask a question, let's stay on the question. You're talking about the new federal licenses called the real ID, which allow people okay as you know, to get into federal buildings, state house, Uh, get get on airplanes without that In theory, Uh, you have to bring a passport or something. So is that chip something? I don't think the police are following people around, but does the capacity that capacity exist?
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Speaker 4: Gade, Well, the ACLU did a pose for many, many long years, the rollout of real ID because we don't think it's a.
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Speaker 3: Good idea to have a national.
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Speaker 4: ID system in the United States. And this is basically the closest thing that this country has ever had to a national.
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Speaker 3: ID card is the real ID.
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Speaker 4: People ought to know though you do not have to get a real ID. So for example, I do not have a real ID. I have a passport card which you can get from the State Department if you don't want to get a real ID, and that will get you on domestic flights, that'll get you into federal courthouses and places like that. You do not need an ID crucially.
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Speaker 3: To get into the state House. Just so your listeners know, you don't have to show any form of IDA to get into the state House. But yes, you know, we did a the real ID roll out.
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Speaker 4: That was a post nine to eleven creation of the Bush administration.
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Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, I supposed.
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Speaker 2: To remember, remember KADD was supposed to go in to effect. I think in October of twenty twenty uh and and and then there was a real rush to get it, and then all of a sudden, COVID came along and it got delayed, delayed, delayed, And I think it's only late last year where it actually went into effect and there was such a an anticipation of it and all of that. So, so Joe, that's I think. I'm not sure if Kate, I don't think that they can like walk into your license and follow you around. They could probably follow you around by looking at your license plate a lot easier than than going into your into your real ideas, is that the I think that's the question I was asking.
00:27:50
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.
00:27:52
Speaker 4: And you know, if the caller is concerned about being tracked, you know, the primary way that.
00:28:00
Speaker 3: You're being tracted through your cell phone.
00:28:02
Speaker 4: And that's what this digital privacy consumer privacy legislation aims to address. So you know, most of us don't even travel to the bathroom without our phones these days, let alone you know, going down to the store to pick up some milk or something.
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Speaker 3: So it really does it does show everywhere you go, you know, and therefore everything you do. And that's why we think it's so crucial that the government prohibit companies from buying and selling and trading this information.
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Speaker 2: So let me ask you this on most people drive cars, and there were some people who don't drive cars in Massachusetts. But when they get on the Massachusetts Trendpike, you know, the transponders record what time you got on, what location you got on at, how long it took you to get to the next location. There's always been a lot of conversation about that that they may be able to say, well, they got from Brighton to Natick in six minutes, which meant they had to be going over eighty five miles an hour. Is that another concern that the Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts would have with the thing called transponders. Obviously, the turnpike is not free if you want to drive on the.
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Speaker 3: Turnpike, that's right. Yeah. When those when the announcement was made that the state was moving towards automatic tolling on the pike, we did contribute some thoughts. Wrote a letter to state regulators, you know, advising them to strengthen the privacy protections that apply to those data. They're okay, we think they could be improved, and in fact, there is legislation House Built thirty seven fifty five, sponsored by Representative Steve Owens, called the Driver's Privacy Act that would apply more stringent protections in the law to the data that's collected by automatic tolling in the state of mass She.
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Speaker 5: Said, yeah, I disagree with your guests on the cell phone.
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Speaker 2: Okay, job, but I appreciate that, and we'll talk about it again sometimes. Thanks very much. Sure, we've got to take a quick break six one, two, five, four, ten, thirty six, seven ninety. I think this is an extremely important discussion issue. Uh, we have just scratching the surface with it. I hope you'll feel free to join the conversation if you have a question. Coming right back on night.
00:30:25
Speaker 1: Side Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm BZY Boston's news Radio.
00:30:33
Speaker 2: I am thoroughly enjoying my conversation with Jade Crockford. She is with the American the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. It's a long title. Let's get at least one more call in here and then, Uh, Jay Kate, I want to make sure that we give away in which people can get more information on this and how they can get information on the the the American Service. Liberty is union in Massachusetts. Gene and Everett's next. Gene, you're on with k Crawford. Do you have a question or a comment?
00:31:06
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, Hi, thank you very much. This is a good topic. I I bought a few things at Best Buy and one of them was a phone, and they asked me for my email and I said, well, I don't really give it out and he said, well you have to if you're buying the phone. So I again.
00:31:29
Speaker 2: So your question, then, Gene, it seems to me is is that legal that someone can compel you to give an email while in order to purchase a cell phone? I think what you're walling wanted.
00:31:43
Speaker 6: They also wanted my phone number, and now I'm getting a million a million emails.
00:31:49
Speaker 2: Did you buy the did you buy the phone? Gene?
00:31:52
Speaker 6: I did? Did you get up?
00:31:55
Speaker 2: Gene? Jeane? Just stay with me now. I know this is difficult, but I have some questions for clarific here, So stay with me.
00:32:01
Speaker 6: I wasn't finished. Go ahead, No, I know you.
00:32:03
Speaker 2: Weren't, because but I only have about four minutes left here. So my question is did you give them your phone number? And did you give them all the information that they requested.
00:32:13
Speaker 6: I did, and I'm getting emails from loads of companies.
00:32:16
Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, We're going to get to all this Gene trust case. Okay, just stay right there. I'm actually trying to help you, Gene. Kate was could have Gene uh sue that company or said, you know, you need to sell me your cell phone, but you can't compel me as a as a condition preceeding of the purchase to to give you for have me give you your email and phone number. Are you familiar with that? And go ahead?
00:32:46
Speaker 3: Great questions.
00:32:47
Speaker 4: So the phone number is necessary because otherwise they can't connect the phone. So that's a good example of you.
00:32:57
Speaker 3: Know what we're trying to accomplish here in mass Jesus with the data privacy legislation.
00:33:01
Speaker 4: The company would say, look, it's reasonably necessary that we collect the phone number of the person who wants to sign up for phone service.
00:33:08
Speaker 3: You know, so that we can phone service.
00:33:12
Speaker 6: That's my home phone.
00:33:14
Speaker 3: You're not talking about a cell phone. You're talking about like a phone on the wall, like a landline.
00:33:19
Speaker 6: No, I bought a cell phone, but they wanted my home phone in That's that's.
00:33:24
Speaker 2: What's called Gene. That's what's called the landline, the one that the old phone that that you're one that's hanging on the wall. So, so go ahead, Kate, I'm going to interpret this. Go right ahead.
00:33:33
Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
00:33:34
Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, Jean, Jeane, hold on for a second. Let's just get through one question at a time, please, Kate, could they could they compel her to give her home phone number as opposed to the number that that the phone would be registered in.
00:33:50
Speaker 3: That does not sound reasonably necessary to me. So again, you know, the goal of.
00:33:55
Speaker 4: This privacy legislation is to limit in statute in the law, the types and quantity of information that companies can collect about us when we engage in you know, when we use their products, or we engage.
00:34:11
Speaker 3: In transactions like the one that you're describing. And I would venture to say that it is not reasonably necessary for a company like Best Buy to collect your landline when you want to buy a cell phone from them. So that is something that arguably would be prohibited.
00:34:30
Speaker 4: By this new legislation that the Massachusetts legislature is currently debating. It's not I don't believe that that would.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: Be currently unlawful, although I have to be honest with you, you know, I'm not an expert on every aspect of the law. You know, there may be some federal law that that gives you the right to buy a phone without having to disclose information like that. I'm not aware of any any statute like that.
00:34:58
Speaker 2: I think I think that that you Jan has another question, Gene, I know you have another question. Go ahead.
00:35:03
Speaker 6: Well, they also required me to give them my home computer email address, and I'm getting a ton of emails from millions of companies every week. Now I can ask them again.
00:35:18
Speaker 3: I think.
00:35:19
Speaker 4: I think that's another example of you know, I'm not exactly sure.
00:35:24
Speaker 3: Was it best Buy or was it Verizon that wanted your email address? You know, stud I yeah, So I don't think.
00:35:31
Speaker 4: It's reasonably necessary for best Buy to say, you know, we're only going to sell you a cell phone if you give us your email address.
00:35:40
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not I'm not familiar with any reason why best Buy would need.
00:35:45
Speaker 4: Your email address in order to complete that transaction.
00:35:48
Speaker 3: So, you know, it's a good question.
00:35:49
Speaker 4: Gene, because this is precisely what we're trying to address, the kind of problem we're trying.
00:35:55
Speaker 3: To address, and this privacy legislation, you know, companies.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: Just hoovering up information about us, even when it has nothing to do with the product or service that we're requesting from that company. That's exactly what we're trying to prevent with it.
00:36:10
Speaker 2: I love the vacuum cleaner reference hoovering up. Jeane, is there? I'm running out of time here. Do you have any other question on this?
00:36:19
Speaker 6: No, I'm just spending my life deleting emails. Well, I have a company in the world now almost all the names.
00:36:29
Speaker 2: I will hire you full time and you can do you know how many emails I get a day, not only if, but no. So anyway, look, thank you for going along and asking questions in a way in which Cade was able to answer them one at a time.
00:36:48
Speaker 6: Yeah. Sometimes, thank you. They told me it was requiet at the time.
00:36:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, one of the things. One of the things that may have there's such things called burner phones that people can buy, and sometimes people who are engaged in criminal activity use phones that have no name associated with them. They're called burner phones. You're familiar with those, I'm sure, kid. Yeah, And it could be that that's what they were concerned about. I don't know, Jane. Thank you, that was a very good time.
00:37:13
Speaker 6: All right, thanks so much, have a good.
00:37:15
Speaker 2: Night, you two. Kate. How could folks either get in more information, give us a website where we can direct people to I think that there were a lot of people who were listening to what we were talking about tonight.
00:37:26
Speaker 4: Go right ahead, Yeah, folks should visit the ac LU of Massachusetts website ac lum dot org. We have a lot of information there about the data privacy legislation that we're trying to.
00:37:38
Speaker 3: Pass here in Massachusetts. And if you support strong data privacy legislation, there's also a means on our website for you to contact your state rep to express that support.
00:37:51
Speaker 2: Kay, do me a favorite. I want to stay involved in this with you. So we have a program that reaches a lot of people. Feel free to get back in touch with me. Have Stephanie getting back in touch with me, and let's, uh, let's try to work together on this because this is this is something that we haven't even touched AI here at anthropric and all of that stuff that went on last week, which is terrifying as well. So there's a lot of stuff that we gotta we gotta get out in the public. And I hope you'll be willing to come back.
00:38:25
Speaker 3: Okay, absolutely, that'll be fantastic. Thanks Dan, Thanks Kate.
00:38:29
Speaker 2: Talk to and Kate Crawford the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts a c l U M dot org. Back on Nightside, I'm going to talk about Iran with a professor from Boston College who was born there and is an expert in Iran. We've had him with us before. Professor Ali Banawazizi will join us right after the ten o'clock news
Speaker 1: It's nice, I'm telling you easy. Boston's News Radio.
00:00:06
Speaker 2: All right, we were talking during the eight o'clock hour about this ironically being National Consumer Protection Week, and that segues pretty nicely into this conversation I'm about to have with Cave Crockford. Cave, first of all, welcome back to Night Side, Kate. How are you this evening?
00:00:26
Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, great to be with you. I'm doing okay. How are you?
00:00:29
Speaker 2: I'm doing just great. Kate is the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, and she's been doing this for a long time. I can remember more than a few years ago and we had some conversations in our studio about the whole questions of security versus privacy, and we can we can talk about that probably all night long. But Kate, it's only gotten worse because as technology has improved, and we know there were just so many things to talk about. Every piece of information that we give up either to our doctors or to our hospital, all of that somehow ends up out there in the ether, and there were really no controls here. So I think what we want to talk about tonight is basically how we protect our privacy in this I would call it the Brave New World. It's sort of Eldus Huxley number two or number four or five. This is something you deal with every day. Last week we had the big story about anthropic, which I know just a little bit about. So let's start off with the basics, because we have some time here, and I want to give people an opportunity to ask you questions. How bad is it out there these days where our information is available in so many places, and actually people are making money off the selling of our information.
00:02:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean you said it in your introduction. Technology has fast outpaced our legal protections in terms of both consumer privacy law and then on the other side also how the government can invade our privacy using new technologies, and often those two issues are related. Actually, but let's start with consumer protection. Yeah, I was just going to say, if you want to, we can start by talking about the consumer side. You know, folks are obviously aware that for the past fifteen to twenty years, we've been sold this story by Silicon Valley that essentially says, you know, we will give you all of these services and products in exchange for your personal information, and we will use your personal information to make hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars for private industry. And that seemed to be a deal that people were comfortable with for a few years in the beginning, until it became clear that these tech companies amassing so much sensitive information about everyone who uses cell phones in the Internet puts all of us at risk and allows those companies to control us in ways that may maybe aren't immediately obvious. So back in twenty seventeen, obviously there was the Camerage Analyticas scandal. That was the first time that that involved Facebook essentially working with this company called camerag Analytica and the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen to essentially turn Facebook's digital marketing and consumer surveillance apparatus into a political tool for the Trump campaign. They were using the data that Facebook collects about people to target potential voters with very specific messages tailored to those specific people, and that creeped a lot of people out, I think for good reason, because it's one thing, if you know, Facebook wants to sell you a pair of shoes, or a Google wants to sell you a mattress or something like that, using all of the data that they collect about you. It's something else if they want to sell you a political candidate and do it in a way that takes advantage of all of the information that they have about you and your interests and your family. You know, how much money you make, where you live, what your religious practices may be, et cetera. So that I think was the first time that a lot of people in this country thought, WHOA, you know, I don't know.
00:04:52
Speaker 2: Let me just let me just slow let me just slowly down there, because they want people to understand exactly what you're talking about. So what that particular case. Again, as I think I understand that, but as I think you understand it better than me. The Trump campaign worked a relationship with this company that had information about people. So if hypothetically, and if I'm using a bad hypothetical, tell me, if they knew that someone was a gun owner or a big gun advocate, and they thought that people who held that point of view would be more likely to vote for the Trump campaign, they were able to glean their information sources and present names and ways to contact people who might be consistent with the campaign on let's say, guns or Second Amendment or on religious attendance at church. Is that how granular it became?
00:05:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So here's another way of thinking about it. Look, you know, if a political campaign wants to target voters using Facebook's data, they can target and this gets true for any political campaign. They could target people just as you said, who maybe liked the NRA's page or something like that on Facebook, ye with ads that talk about how great that candidate is going to be for gun rights right, And maybe that same person has liked pages maybe they have sort of unorthodox politics, they're kind of a libertarian. Maybe they've also liked pages that are supportive of a woman's right to choose right of abortion rights, and so maybe they would not show that person ads saying that the candidate is anti abortion right. So it's a way that you know, this is just one example, of course, of how this information can be used. But the point is that you know, anybody who works with information librarians, you know, intelligence specialists in the CIA, understand that knowledge is power. Right, if you have a lot of information about someone, you can control them, You can manipulate them because you know what makes them tick, you know what vulnerabilities they have, and essentially what we've now seen in Silicon Valley is the development of an entire industry that is focused on conducting surveillance of its users so that they can sell people either products in the case of you know, selling you shoes or a ski jacket or something like that, or you know, potentially sell to political candidates the way to manipulate people to vote for you. You also brought up the issue of data brokers. That's a really important one that I want to highlight for people because it's particularly creepy. One of the things that this online surveillance you know economy has created is a marketplace for the buying and selling of our personal data. And there are there are many data brokers that are involved in this industry. The industry again initially came from the online advertising industry, but has since expanded. And so now right now, there are numerous location data brokers that sell information showing where essentially everyone with a cell phone has been in the past, is presently and you know where we're going to go in the future, and they sell this data to anybody who can afford to pay for it. So there have been stories in a variety of newspapers about the dangers that this causes to national security. You know, somebody take you know. Right now, the US has now engaged in military hostilities against Iran. Things are quite unstable in the Middle East at the moment. There could be innumerable foreign actors currently buying access to cell phone location data showing the present locations and the past patterns of life and habits of key people who work for Raytheon, or folks who work in the Trump administration or the United States military political leaders. Yeah, let me let me.
00:09:20
Speaker 2: Jump in here with a question. Okay, So let's assume someone, uh, when they travel, and let's say it's somebody who's important, likes to go to a certain hotel chain. They like to go wherever they're going to go that they want to go to the Hilton, or they want to go to the Four Seasons or whatever the hotel hotel chain is. How is that data, person the broker, how does he or she accumulate that data? Is it simply that the cell phone that is assigned to you, that you that you know, that has a specific number and that's assigned to you shows up that you're at the Four Seasons hotel. Here one day, and two days later you're another four Seatson's Hotel, three thousand miles away. I'm just using the four Seasons as an example. Or are they pulling the data from your credit card when you use your credit card to check out of you and they see, oh this this person likes four seasons. Is the source the credit card or is the source actually the ping on the phone?
00:10:29
Speaker 3: It's the phone. I mean, data workers also sell information about what we buy with your credit cards. But taking the example of location data, that's data that comes directly from your cell phone. So you're probably you know, you've probably noticed that when you travel to a new place, you get targeted advertisements on your phone that are specific to the new location that you're in. You know, so if you go to Las Vegas on vacation, you get off the plane, you open up your phone, you know you're going to see advertisements on Instagram and other websites and platforms that you use that are specific to businesses in Las Vegas.
00:11:08
Speaker 2: Right, I'll give you another exactly, because if you go out of the country and you go to anywhere, it will tell you that, you know, for a certain amounts you can use your cell phone as if you're in America for the next twenty four hours and you have to sign up, but they know the moment that you land somewhere else.
00:11:30
Speaker 3: That's right, a cell phone company. Yeah, so your cell phone company knows where you are. The apps on your phone know where you are. And even if you don't use apps that track your location, merely using web you know, we going to visit websites on the browser on your phone can also trigger this location tracking. So it's essentially impossible for consumers to use smartphones without being caught in this location data drag net. And again, you know, what was initially a marketplace that was created to facilitate digital advertising has now morphed into something else or something additional on top of that, which is that the government is buying our cell phone location data from these location broke.
00:12:28
Speaker 2: Great use of my tax dollars, Kate, I got to take a quick break here. I want to come back to thanks follow up on this. The information that you've given us is so clear it should scare everyone, whatever your political viewpoints. This is this is a transactional concern. No matter where you live or work or travel anywhere in the world, there are people who are able to track that based upon the things that we carry with us voluntarily. This is pretty scary. And we're going to talk about the legislation that should be that I think you're in favor of that that should be adopted nationally and also here in Massachusetts. Will take a break. My guest UH is Cad Crockford. She is the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the America Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. And what I'm hearing from Caid tonight is very troubling. I'm glad that that Stephanie from your office suggested that we do this interview because this is something that is uh, it's beyond politics. It's it's absolutely beyond politics. It's big Brother on steroids. We'll be back on Nightside if you'd like to join the conversation or ask a question six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty, six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Coming right back on Nightside with Caid Crockford.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: You're on night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z Boston's News Radio.
00:14:00
Speaker 2: With us is Cad Crockford. Cad is with the Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, American Civil Liberties Union in Massachusetts. She's the director of Technology and Justice Programs. So here's a question, Kate. All this information that's being compiled on us without our knowledge by private businesses, by the government, how long does it stay relevant? Is this something that is you know, there forever, or you know is the does it fall off the web at a certain point in time.
00:14:41
Speaker 3: Well, you know, one of the other issues we were talking before about how one of the trends that we've seen over the past twenty years is that technology has far outpaced the law protecting our privacy and our civil liberties. The other trend is that it's now basically cheaper to keep information forever than it is to delete it. So these companies have real, really no incentive to get rid of this information if it's potentially valuable, which it is. So, you know, location data again is one of the most sensitive types of personal information that we're seeking to protect in legislation that lawmakers in Massachusetts are working on right now. So in September, the Senate in Massachusetts past Comprehensive Data Privacy legislation. That bill basically does two things. One, it limits in the law how much and what kinds of data companies can collect about you period. So it says essentially, for ordinary types of information like your name, your email address, things of that nature, companies can only collect that information if it's reasonably necessary to provide you the consumer with the product that you've requested. And then for sensitive data that precise to your location data, biometric information, so that's like, you know, information that is unique to each of us, physical traits that are unique to us, or our face, our voice is a biometric believe it or not, are iris for those types of sensitive data as well as information about children, information about your religious practices, you know, your sexual practices, things that I think most people would agree, Yeah, that's especially sensitive for those types of data. What the Senate did was say companies are limited to collecting sensitive data to when it is strictly necessary to provide you, the consumer, with the product that you've requested. So that framework is called data minimization. And basically what we're trying to do is sort of similar to what we have in place with respect to safe food standards. Basically, the idea is when you go to the grocery store, you don't think, oh great, I have to figure out which mil to get and take it home and test it to see if there's a COLLI in it. You just trust that our food safety system regulates businesses. Right. So that's the same idea, is that not every consumer has to be a data privacy expert, that you'd just be protected in the law that's created of minimization.
00:17:19
Speaker 2: But so this passed the Senate, but past the Senate, but not the House.
00:17:25
Speaker 3: Not yet. So the second thing that that Senate bill did was ban the sale of sensitive data entirely. And so that's when we get into you know, the precise deal location data again, the biometric information, information about children, things of that nature. The Senate said you can't sell that data period and that's extremely important. What we were hoping the Senate would do but they didn't was include a private right of action to enforce that legislation. Meaning just like with our consumer protection law, which says, you know, you go to a car dealer, ship, the dealer can't lie to you about the car that he's selling you because that is a violation of your rights under ninety three A, the Consumer Protection Statute, and you can personally sue that car dealer if you find out that he lied to you. That's really crucial for trust in our society. We believe that that same enforcement mechanism ought to apply to data privacy legislation, and we didn't get that victory in the Senate. The Senate has their legislation enforced only by the Attorney General. So that's something that we hope the House will address. And to your question, the House is at work right now on very similar legislation that we hope to see enacted by the House within the next month or so. So yes, those are the three core elements that we are hoping that the House will will apply in their data privacy legislation.
00:18:52
Speaker 2: Well, we want to, we will work with you on this, and again, I'm we're going to take a break here for some news. I'm going to go to a phone call after the break, but I want to just assure you and assure the audience that this is not a one and done as far as I'm concerned, this is something we really have to stay on top of, and whenever you know, I can work with the Massachusetts the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. Obviously there should be a broad support of people. We might disagree on things like public cameras and whether or not we're giving up privacy in favor of security. And the old comment I think was it Ben Franklin. The people who you know, give up privacy for security of the end get neither. I got to take a break, Kate. When I come back, I'm going to ask you the question of you're trying to get it done here in Massachusetts, but shouldn't this really be done at a federal level. I'll give you a chance to come back with your thoughts on that. My name is Dan Ray. We're talking with my guest, who is Kad Crawford. She is the director of Technology and Justice Programs for the Massachusetts Civil Liberties Union. And uh, this has opened up my eyes to a world that I should have known about, and I hope it's opening up some of your eyes as well. Back on Nightside, if you like to join the conversation, ask a question six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty Back on Nightside.
00:20:21
Speaker 1: Right after this Night Side though with Dan Ray, I'MBZ Boston's News Radio.
00:20:29
Speaker 2: Back with Kate Crockford, the director of Technology and Justice Programs at the Massachusetts the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts Okay, So my question is, Okay, you guys are doing great work cre in Massachusetts to try to protect people in Massachusetts, but what good does that do us if we don't have federal laws in place. And I'm not trying to reign on the parade here, I'm just trying to say, it's obviously this is a great step that you're undertaking, and people should support you on this, but what are the chances that at the national level we can get some form of federal protection.
00:21:08
Speaker 3: It's a great question. And my colleagues at the National ACLU and many other organizations that do work at the federal level have been trying to get Congress to pass strong consumer privacy legislation for many, many years now.
00:21:23
Speaker 4: There was an effort in i believe two congresses ago where they came pretty close those you know that that legislation got derailed at kind of the last minute, and we haven't seen a serious effort since then in Congress to pass strong consumer privacy legislation.
00:21:46
Speaker 3: So the reality is, you know, it's sort of two things. On the one hand, there are a lot of issues that Massachusetts cannot you know, legislate, right, So for example, you know, Massachusetts can't control ice. You know, the Massachusetts state legislature can, of course pass laws to limit state and local collaboration with ICE. But but Massachusetts lawmakers can't tell the federal government what to do. But this is an example of a scenario in which the Massachusetts legislature actually does have tremendous power and authority. We've seen many other states past consumer privacy laws California, Maryland there. You know, there are many many other states that have done this, some some bet are, some not so great. This is an area where the state has a tremendous amount of power and authority, and so we don't have to wait, fortunately for the federal government to step in, the State of Massachusetts can protect Massachusetts consumers very well. You know the devils in the details, of course, you know what the legislation does, what it says, and again what the enforcement mechanisms look like. Those are all really important questions. But the basic question of can Massachusetts protect consumers in this area, the answer is clearly yes.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: So when we talk about the difficulty that the National American Civil Liberties Union has had in Washington, I'm assuming that there are people of goodwill in both political parties. I hope that this is a nonpartisan or a bipartisan issue, that it doesn't break down on party lines. Seemingly everything in this country has broken down over in the last several years. Am I right or wrong on that?
00:23:32
Speaker 4: Guess You're definitely right in terms of where voters are, Voters across the political spectrum support strong consumer privacy legislation. In fact, we did a poll here in Massachusetts a few years ago when we launched this campaign, and we asked voters left right and center, so that's people registered as Republicans, Independence, and Democrats, would you support legislation that, for exams sample, banned companies from selling your precise geolocation data from your cell phone, showing you know where you travel, where your children travel, where you live, where you work, et cetera. Ninety two percent of Massachusetts likely voters said yes.
00:24:15
Speaker 3: This is not a close question when it comes to where voters are. That's that's absolutely true.
00:24:21
Speaker 2: I would love to know who that eight percent were on.
00:24:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll work for data brokers.
00:24:26
Speaker 2: D Yes, well that's exactly it. Let's let's try to get some phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four ten, thirty six one seven nine, three thirty. This impacts everyone, everyone, Joe and Belmont. Joe, you have a question for Cad Crawford, I believe, go right ahead, Joe.
00:24:44
Speaker 5: Yes, Uh, on this privacy question I have. I would like some of your listeners to who are in the know, to call in and common on it. My question is the Massachusetts state license with the chip in it? Can the government follow you in the state police and local police follow you also with the chip.
00:25:13
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what you mean by the chip.
00:25:15
Speaker 2: I think what he might mean is that with the new licenses, when you renew your license, you have to get this, uh, this this federal type of license so that you can get the reality. I think is that what you're referring to, Joe, the reality.
00:25:33
Speaker 5: Just like you know, the chip when the Antichrist comes.
00:25:37
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. Let's Joe, let's not go off and then never never land here. Let's just talk. If you want to ask a question, let's stay on the question. You're talking about the new federal licenses called the real ID, which allow people okay as you know, to get into federal buildings, state house, Uh, get get on airplanes without that In theory, Uh, you have to bring a passport or something. So is that chip something? I don't think the police are following people around, but does the capacity that capacity exist?
00:26:09
Speaker 4: Gade, Well, the ACLU did a pose for many, many long years, the rollout of real ID because we don't think it's a.
00:26:18
Speaker 3: Good idea to have a national.
00:26:19
Speaker 4: ID system in the United States. And this is basically the closest thing that this country has ever had to a national.
00:26:26
Speaker 3: ID card is the real ID.
00:26:28
Speaker 4: People ought to know though you do not have to get a real ID. So for example, I do not have a real ID. I have a passport card which you can get from the State Department if you don't want to get a real ID, and that will get you on domestic flights, that'll get you into federal courthouses and places like that. You do not need an ID crucially.
00:26:51
Speaker 3: To get into the state House. Just so your listeners know, you don't have to show any form of IDA to get into the state House. But yes, you know, we did a the real ID roll out.
00:27:02
Speaker 4: That was a post nine to eleven creation of the Bush administration.
00:27:05
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, I supposed.
00:27:07
Speaker 2: To remember, remember KADD was supposed to go in to effect. I think in October of twenty twenty uh and and and then there was a real rush to get it, and then all of a sudden, COVID came along and it got delayed, delayed, delayed, And I think it's only late last year where it actually went into effect and there was such a an anticipation of it and all of that. So, so Joe, that's I think. I'm not sure if Kate, I don't think that they can like walk into your license and follow you around. They could probably follow you around by looking at your license plate a lot easier than than going into your into your real ideas, is that the I think that's the question I was asking.
00:27:50
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.
00:27:52
Speaker 4: And you know, if the caller is concerned about being tracked, you know, the primary way that.
00:28:00
Speaker 3: You're being tracted through your cell phone.
00:28:02
Speaker 4: And that's what this digital privacy consumer privacy legislation aims to address. So you know, most of us don't even travel to the bathroom without our phones these days, let alone you know, going down to the store to pick up some milk or something.
00:28:16
Speaker 3: So it really does it does show everywhere you go, you know, and therefore everything you do. And that's why we think it's so crucial that the government prohibit companies from buying and selling and trading this information.
00:28:30
Speaker 2: So let me ask you this on most people drive cars, and there were some people who don't drive cars in Massachusetts. But when they get on the Massachusetts Trendpike, you know, the transponders record what time you got on, what location you got on at, how long it took you to get to the next location. There's always been a lot of conversation about that that they may be able to say, well, they got from Brighton to Natick in six minutes, which meant they had to be going over eighty five miles an hour. Is that another concern that the Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts would have with the thing called transponders. Obviously, the turnpike is not free if you want to drive on the.
00:29:12
Speaker 3: Turnpike, that's right. Yeah. When those when the announcement was made that the state was moving towards automatic tolling on the pike, we did contribute some thoughts. Wrote a letter to state regulators, you know, advising them to strengthen the privacy protections that apply to those data. They're okay, we think they could be improved, and in fact, there is legislation House Built thirty seven fifty five, sponsored by Representative Steve Owens, called the Driver's Privacy Act that would apply more stringent protections in the law to the data that's collected by automatic tolling in the state of mass She.
00:30:00
Speaker 5: Said, yeah, I disagree with your guests on the cell phone.
00:30:04
Speaker 2: Okay, job, but I appreciate that, and we'll talk about it again sometimes. Thanks very much. Sure, we've got to take a quick break six one, two, five, four, ten, thirty six, seven ninety. I think this is an extremely important discussion issue. Uh, we have just scratching the surface with it. I hope you'll feel free to join the conversation if you have a question. Coming right back on night.
00:30:25
Speaker 1: Side Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm BZY Boston's news Radio.
00:30:33
Speaker 2: I am thoroughly enjoying my conversation with Jade Crockford. She is with the American the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. It's a long title. Let's get at least one more call in here and then, Uh, Jay Kate, I want to make sure that we give away in which people can get more information on this and how they can get information on the the the American Service. Liberty is union in Massachusetts. Gene and Everett's next. Gene, you're on with k Crawford. Do you have a question or a comment?
00:31:06
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, Hi, thank you very much. This is a good topic. I I bought a few things at Best Buy and one of them was a phone, and they asked me for my email and I said, well, I don't really give it out and he said, well you have to if you're buying the phone. So I again.
00:31:29
Speaker 2: So your question, then, Gene, it seems to me is is that legal that someone can compel you to give an email while in order to purchase a cell phone? I think what you're walling wanted.
00:31:43
Speaker 6: They also wanted my phone number, and now I'm getting a million a million emails.
00:31:49
Speaker 2: Did you buy the did you buy the phone? Gene?
00:31:52
Speaker 6: I did? Did you get up?
00:31:55
Speaker 2: Gene? Jeane? Just stay with me now. I know this is difficult, but I have some questions for clarific here, So stay with me.
00:32:01
Speaker 6: I wasn't finished. Go ahead, No, I know you.
00:32:03
Speaker 2: Weren't, because but I only have about four minutes left here. So my question is did you give them your phone number? And did you give them all the information that they requested.
00:32:13
Speaker 6: I did, and I'm getting emails from loads of companies.
00:32:16
Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, We're going to get to all this Gene trust case. Okay, just stay right there. I'm actually trying to help you, Gene. Kate was could have Gene uh sue that company or said, you know, you need to sell me your cell phone, but you can't compel me as a as a condition preceeding of the purchase to to give you for have me give you your email and phone number. Are you familiar with that? And go ahead?
00:32:46
Speaker 3: Great questions.
00:32:47
Speaker 4: So the phone number is necessary because otherwise they can't connect the phone. So that's a good example of you.
00:32:57
Speaker 3: Know what we're trying to accomplish here in mass Jesus with the data privacy legislation.
00:33:01
Speaker 4: The company would say, look, it's reasonably necessary that we collect the phone number of the person who wants to sign up for phone service.
00:33:08
Speaker 3: You know, so that we can phone service.
00:33:12
Speaker 6: That's my home phone.
00:33:14
Speaker 3: You're not talking about a cell phone. You're talking about like a phone on the wall, like a landline.
00:33:19
Speaker 6: No, I bought a cell phone, but they wanted my home phone in That's that's.
00:33:24
Speaker 2: What's called Gene. That's what's called the landline, the one that the old phone that that you're one that's hanging on the wall. So, so go ahead, Kate, I'm going to interpret this. Go right ahead.
00:33:33
Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
00:33:34
Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, Jean, Jeane, hold on for a second. Let's just get through one question at a time, please, Kate, could they could they compel her to give her home phone number as opposed to the number that that the phone would be registered in.
00:33:50
Speaker 3: That does not sound reasonably necessary to me. So again, you know, the goal of.
00:33:55
Speaker 4: This privacy legislation is to limit in statute in the law, the types and quantity of information that companies can collect about us when we engage in you know, when we use their products, or we engage.
00:34:11
Speaker 3: In transactions like the one that you're describing. And I would venture to say that it is not reasonably necessary for a company like Best Buy to collect your landline when you want to buy a cell phone from them. So that is something that arguably would be prohibited.
00:34:30
Speaker 4: By this new legislation that the Massachusetts legislature is currently debating. It's not I don't believe that that would.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: Be currently unlawful, although I have to be honest with you, you know, I'm not an expert on every aspect of the law. You know, there may be some federal law that that gives you the right to buy a phone without having to disclose information like that. I'm not aware of any any statute like that.
00:34:58
Speaker 2: I think I think that that you Jan has another question, Gene, I know you have another question. Go ahead.
00:35:03
Speaker 6: Well, they also required me to give them my home computer email address, and I'm getting a ton of emails from millions of companies every week. Now I can ask them again.
00:35:18
Speaker 3: I think.
00:35:19
Speaker 4: I think that's another example of you know, I'm not exactly sure.
00:35:24
Speaker 3: Was it best Buy or was it Verizon that wanted your email address? You know, stud I yeah, So I don't think.
00:35:31
Speaker 4: It's reasonably necessary for best Buy to say, you know, we're only going to sell you a cell phone if you give us your email address.
00:35:40
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not I'm not familiar with any reason why best Buy would need.
00:35:45
Speaker 4: Your email address in order to complete that transaction.
00:35:48
Speaker 3: So, you know, it's a good question.
00:35:49
Speaker 4: Gene, because this is precisely what we're trying to address, the kind of problem we're trying.
00:35:55
Speaker 3: To address, and this privacy legislation, you know, companies.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: Just hoovering up information about us, even when it has nothing to do with the product or service that we're requesting from that company. That's exactly what we're trying to prevent with it.
00:36:10
Speaker 2: I love the vacuum cleaner reference hoovering up. Jeane, is there? I'm running out of time here. Do you have any other question on this?
00:36:19
Speaker 6: No, I'm just spending my life deleting emails. Well, I have a company in the world now almost all the names.
00:36:29
Speaker 2: I will hire you full time and you can do you know how many emails I get a day, not only if, but no. So anyway, look, thank you for going along and asking questions in a way in which Cade was able to answer them one at a time.
00:36:48
Speaker 6: Yeah. Sometimes, thank you. They told me it was requiet at the time.
00:36:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, one of the things. One of the things that may have there's such things called burner phones that people can buy, and sometimes people who are engaged in criminal activity use phones that have no name associated with them. They're called burner phones. You're familiar with those, I'm sure, kid. Yeah, And it could be that that's what they were concerned about. I don't know, Jane. Thank you, that was a very good time.
00:37:13
Speaker 6: All right, thanks so much, have a good.
00:37:15
Speaker 2: Night, you two. Kate. How could folks either get in more information, give us a website where we can direct people to I think that there were a lot of people who were listening to what we were talking about tonight.
00:37:26
Speaker 4: Go right ahead, Yeah, folks should visit the ac LU of Massachusetts website ac lum dot org. We have a lot of information there about the data privacy legislation that we're trying to.
00:37:38
Speaker 3: Pass here in Massachusetts. And if you support strong data privacy legislation, there's also a means on our website for you to contact your state rep to express that support.
00:37:51
Speaker 2: Kay, do me a favorite. I want to stay involved in this with you. So we have a program that reaches a lot of people. Feel free to get back in touch with me. Have Stephanie getting back in touch with me, and let's, uh, let's try to work together on this because this is this is something that we haven't even touched AI here at anthropric and all of that stuff that went on last week, which is terrifying as well. So there's a lot of stuff that we gotta we gotta get out in the public. And I hope you'll be willing to come back.
00:38:25
Speaker 3: Okay, absolutely, that'll be fantastic. Thanks Dan, Thanks Kate.
00:38:29
Speaker 2: Talk to and Kate Crawford the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts a c l U M dot org. Back on Nightside, I'm going to talk about Iran with a professor from Boston College who was born there and is an expert in Iran. We've had him with us before. Professor Ali Banawazizi will join us right after the ten o'clock news
