How Microglia Influence Brain Development and Disease | Ania Majewska

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If you imagine microglia are incredibly reactive
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cells, I think their roles are so nuanced that
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we don't understand them as well in neurodevelopmental
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disorders as we do in neurodegenerative disorders.
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So there's a wealth of things that we need to
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understand, and there's just so much that still
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needs to be done. But I think the role of microglia
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is going to become much more important to clear
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up. Welcome to another episode of Neuroscience
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Perspectives. I'm John Foxe, Director of the Del
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Monte Institute for Neuroscience here at the
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University of Rochester Medicine. Please subscribe,
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follow and like us wherever you listen to your
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podcasts. I'm thrilled to be joined today by
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Ania Majewska, Professor of Neuroscience and
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Co -Director of our Intellectual and Developmental
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Disabilities Research Centre, our IDDRC, here
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at University of Rochester Medicine. Ania
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uses advanced in vivo imaging to watch in real
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time how synapses and microglia, the brain's
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immune cells, interact and remodel during development,
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learning and disease. Her landmark research has
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helped shift how we think about microglia, showing
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that they are not just passive responders to
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injury, but active, dynamic, moving participants
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in normal brain wiring and plasticity. Anya's
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mentorship is second to none. She has received
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numerous honors, including the 2022 National
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Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke
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Landis Award for a standing mentorship. Anya,
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thanks so much for coming on Neuroscience Perspectives
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today. I've been dying to have you in that seat
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there to grill you about your work and all kinds
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of other things. So let's dive in immediately
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with microglia and your fascination with them.
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Why are you fascinated with them, first of all?
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What's special about them? And then tell us a
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little bit about your landmark study in microglia.
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So I think I'll just start with the brain. The
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brain is amazing because it's so pretty. The
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cells are so beautiful, but it's also incredibly
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dynamic. And I think microglia maybe take that
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a step further or magnify that in that they're
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incredibly dynamic cells. They have these long
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tendrils where they're constantly exploring the
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brain. So even in the absence of... disease or
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injury, which is what you typically associate
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with immune cells getting active and doing their
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work, microglia are constantly reaching out and
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touching other cells at rates that are really
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remarkable given a very complex structure of
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the brain. And so I love that being able to visualize
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their movement through the brain, thinking about
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what that means for other cells and brain function
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in general. And yeah, I think they're just amazing.
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Yeah. Yeah. You know, you think about the cells
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in your body and they sit where they where they
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sit, you know, and your bone is here and in your
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brain, the neurons are static. But actually,
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these guys are running around like doing all
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kinds of dynamic activities all the time. Yeah,
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so I would say that neurons aren't being static.
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There's a lot of growth in neurons too, and I
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used to study that, but it's measured in microns,
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tiny, tiny units, whereas microglia really do
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explore the brain in a way that is unusual or
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maybe not really found in the other cell types.
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Yeah, yeah. They're sending out these spines
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and tentacles, let's call them, but the cell
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body itself is also... Also can move, right?
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That actually depends on where in the brain you
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are. So in many places in the brain, like other...
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cell types, microglia have a territory that they
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explore. And this is their territory and their
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cell body stays in the middle and their processes
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go around. That collapses when there's injury
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or disease. They tend to migrate to where they're
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needed. But then there's other parts of the brain
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that are historically, sort of historically,
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evolutionarily older, like the cerebellum, where
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the microglia actually do, there's fewer of them.
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And to do that surveillance, they do actually
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move the whole cell body and migrate around the
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brain. So it really, they have different phenotypes.
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depending on where you're looking, what the brain
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area does, and they're really tuned to that function
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of the brain. Yeah, yeah. And I've seen these
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beautiful images that you've shown, you know,
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an injury happens, and it's like, hey, lads,
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over here, Houston, we've got a problem, and
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they're running over to get to the site of the
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lesion or the infarct. Yeah, they're the first
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responders, so they're incredibly rapid, and
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they really... Like I said, I think I'm a very
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visual person, so I really enjoy just watching
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them do their thing. It's very visually striking,
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and it's just beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Tell folks
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then about the methodology, because the first
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time I ever went in your lab, I saw your 2P setup
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and this extraordinary microscope and all these
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various intricacies to it. Tell a little bit
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about 2P, how it does, how it works a little
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bit. Yeah, so the two -photon effect is a nonlinear
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optical effect. And so it's a little different
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than normal microscopy in that it has different
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photophysics. And it was actually discovered
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by Maria Goppermeyer, a woman physicist who...
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received the Nobel Prize for something else.
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But she described this effect 100 years ago.
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But you need so much energy to cause this effect
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to happen. In fact, they estimate that if you
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put a dish of your typical dye, like fluorescein,
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out in the sunlight, that effect would happen
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like once every million years. So it's a very
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rare event. You'd need a lot of light to make
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it happen. And so we needed to wait until lasers
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were invented. And then lasers could focus the
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light into a small area. and make this transition.
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And why would you want to make this transition?
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Well, it turns out that you get really great
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resolution with it because you're able to illuminate
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a very small portion of your sample, the brain
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in this case, and that gives you very nicely
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resolved pictures instead of getting blur from
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other structures that are close by. And it gives
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you incredibly well -resolved pictures in a scattering
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sample like the brain. And actually, the technology
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for it, the microscopy, was first put together
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by WhatWeb at Cornell, so right down the road.
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And I started off in my PhD a couple years later
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at a time where there were maybe five or six
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labs in the world trying this technology. And
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at the time, we couldn't get anyone interested
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in it. It takes a lot of physics knowledge. Like
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you said, it's a fancy setup with a lot of microscope
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bits and optics, and nobody wanted to touch it.
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It was just too difficult, too finicky. The microscope
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companies wouldn't. And, of course, now it's
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like a workhorse. Since it was adopted, it's
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allowed so many different insights into how the
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brain works and in so many different ways. So
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it's really gratifying to see it being used more.
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But it also just allows you to peek in under
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the hood, you know, to look under there and see
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what's happening, like you said, in real time,
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and be able to visualize these tiny structures
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that you couldn't see with the naked eye. It's
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really, really fun. Typical light microscopy
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can't even come close, nowhere close. And there's
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quite a lot of technical part of this. I mean,
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this thing can't move at all. It can't vibrate.
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Yep. Even infinitesimally small distances. Well,
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it's looking at very small things. So if you
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have vibrations, your small thing will go all
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over the place. Absolutely. And then you said
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you used an interesting term of scattering. material
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or to describe the brain right and and this can
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actually penetrate penetrate true and focus down
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deeper so you don't you're not You're not just
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relegated to the surface. Yes, and the brain
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is very opaque, but this technology can really
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get in there much deeper. Not super deep. We're
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talking half a millimeter with the new three
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-photon techniques, maybe 1 .5 millimeters. In
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terms of a human brain, that's still pretty small.
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But in terms of studying this in preclinical
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systems, it's fantastic. Tell us your favorite
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Mayeska Lab paper. Oh, that's so hard. I love
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all of our papers. You know, I would say that...
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But this is right. This is where you end up annoying
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some of your former students or postdocs, but
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you're going to have to do it. Almost certainly.
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I'll go back. And, you know, the first paper
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on microglia was very, very special, partly because
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it really was a time where people thought microglia
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were immune cells. They were studied in Alzheimer's
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disease and aging and immune challenge, those
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sorts of conditions. Nobody thought they were
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actually doing it. Right. And when you say doing
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anything, you mean functionally, actually involved
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in neural computations and mentation. Yeah, exactly.
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So I think that paper, and I won't say that we
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were, you know, there's a lot of people pulling.
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at this time and coming to similar conclusions.
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So I won't say we were ahead of everybody else,
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but we were right there at the forefront of trying
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to describe these cells as brain cells, not as
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immune cells, but really what are they doing
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in the brain and how do they communicate with
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the other cell types. And I think it was a very
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special paper because We had these ideas very
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early and it was always a side project. It was
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always something we were going to give a student
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that was coming to the lab to try things out
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or an undergraduate student. And I think when
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finally my postdoc kind of embraced it and started
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finding things that we never expected and really
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sort of proving that these cells. do more. They
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know what neurons are doing. They respond to
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what neurons are doing in normal physiology.
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That was just such an eye -opener. And it was
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really the start of the field. And that's because
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they actually have electrical coupling to the
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neurons? No, no. It's really because, and I think
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that, you know, it's still, people argue about
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this. I think there's bidirectional signaling.
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I think it's extracellular. I think it's probably
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either contact or released. Depending on who
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you talk to, there's pathways that have been
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described that can argue for both. But no, no.
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So it's still an open question. It's still an
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open question. They do exchange material with
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neurons in terms of cytoplasmic. Like if you
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do electron microscopy studies, which can do
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very high resolution imaging on tissue that's
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been fixed already, so you can't do live imaging.
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But you can see that exchange of material between
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microglia and other cell types. So they can sort
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of, you know, they can do that as well. Sure.
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Is that exchange of material getting... detritus
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out of nerve cells to be chewed up by glia? Possibly,
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but sometimes microglia seem to be poking into
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neurons. So I think it's a really interesting
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dynamic, and I think there's still so much to
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be understood in terms of what the actual signals
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are and what microglia are reading. Every time
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we look, we find more. I think they're really
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sensitive cells that really care what the other
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cells around them are doing. So they can read
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a lot of signals. Glia is glue, right? They were
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originally just thought of as support cells?
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Well, I think the term glia as support cells
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really was astrocytes. I mean, microglia weren't
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even considered anything for a long time. Realizing
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that they were functional and that they were
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doing more, what was the next step? What was
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that? What were those functions? What's a major
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thing that glia do that we wouldn't have expected
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15 years ago? So I think microglia really care
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about synapses, which was what was exciting to
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me. I was a synaptic physiologist at the time,
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trying to understand how neurons talk to one
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another through these very specialized connections
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that themselves are dynamic, but not nearly as
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dynamic as microglia. To me, the power of the
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brain not only lies in the fact that there's
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all these interconnected neurons, but the fact
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that you can change those connections, right?
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So each of these junctions is incredibly plastic,
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and based on what is going on, the experience
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of... the organism or the activity within the
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circuit, you get changes in those weights and
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how the neurons talk to one another through these
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specialized junctions. And I think microglia
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are really part of that synaptic coupling. Astrocytes
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have been known to be there for a long time.
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That's why you get the tripartite synapse has
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been talked about for a long time. Astrocytes
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worm their way to the junction and can modulate
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how the two neurons talk to one another. And
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I think microglia do a similar thing, but they
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do so very dynamically. neurons decide how to
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talk to one another and how to change that communication
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based on the computation they're trying to do.
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Do they get old, microglia? Oh yes, microglia
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get old. And that is a whole field in and of
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itself. I think that microglia and aging are
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in some ways dysfunctional, in some ways maybe
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more active as immune cells. People have described
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different phenotypes, but they contribute to
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almost every neurodegenerative disease. And certainly
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with diseases... So a major player in Alzheimer's
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disease. Oh, huge, yeah. And the majority of
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genetic risk for Alzheimer's disease is actually
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attributed to the immune system. And so these
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aren't mutations that will give you Alzheimer's,
00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:05.889
but they will make it likelier that you will
00:13:05.889 --> 00:13:09.490
get it. So getting old could mean that there
00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:11.929
aren't enough of them being generated, or there's
00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:14.240
too many of them being... It could be any of
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:16.919
those things, depending on the context and the
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.139
age and the brain region and all of those things.
00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.500
So in some ways, they can get more inflammatory
00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:25.320
where they think there's something going wrong
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.179
when there isn't. And in other ways, they might
00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:29.100
not be able to read signals where they need to
00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:32.559
be recruited to help. Or they might really just
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.419
kind of become senescent and kind of sit there
00:13:34.419 --> 00:13:36.340
and not be able to do anything, even though they're
00:13:36.340 --> 00:13:38.700
sitting in the brain. You're describing pretty
00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:41.639
fundamental neuroscience here. And then over
00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.480
the last... number of years you've been dragged
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.059
into slid into I don't know what the right analogy
00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:52.940
is into really looking at these kinds of processes
00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:55.919
in the context of intellectual disabilities neurodevelopmental
00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:58.539
disorders do you want to say a little bit about
00:13:58.539 --> 00:14:01.220
that is and and I'm going to come back with a
00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:02.860
question about how you feel about all that but
00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:04.519
let's let's talk about the brass tacks first
00:14:04.889 --> 00:14:07.070
Okay, so I'll give a shout out to the University
00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:09.710
of Rochester here because I think that it is
00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:12.129
an amazingly collaborative place to work. And
00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:15.129
I think that I am such a basic scientist who
00:14:15.129 --> 00:14:17.190
really just wants to understand how things work.
00:14:17.289 --> 00:14:20.350
But being surrounded by people who are working
00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:24.509
on human diseases, whether they're clinicians
00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:27.950
or whether they're researchers, you get into...
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.279
interesting conversations that spark new collaborations.
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:33.700
And so, yes, I'm constantly being dragged into
00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:35.980
writing grants on things that I never thought
00:14:35.980 --> 00:14:39.100
I would study. And it's been amazing and really
00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:42.559
wonderful. You know, I've always been interested
00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:45.659
in development, how the cells, how the neurons
00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:47.899
wire up, not just how they change the way they
00:14:47.899 --> 00:14:50.039
talk to one another. But that's a big part of
00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:51.799
how they wire up in the first place is how they
00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.399
talk to one another and decide on the wiring.
00:14:54.740 --> 00:14:58.000
And so... it was really a natural step to saying,
00:14:58.059 --> 00:15:01.059
well, we've described how microglia do these
00:15:01.059 --> 00:15:03.379
things in development. Could they be contributing
00:15:03.379 --> 00:15:06.720
to how it goes differently when there's a neurodevelopmental
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:11.840
disorder? And yeah, that's been a huge learning
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.480
curve for me. But it's been a different way of
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.299
looking at things and really understanding that
00:15:16.299 --> 00:15:19.159
basic biology is incredibly important to understanding
00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.919
disease. And I think that's maybe sometimes forgotten
00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.379
when you think about uh translational research
00:15:26.379 --> 00:15:29.559
but the basic science often leads the way so
00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.340
you can't fix it if you don't know how it works
00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:35.460
in the first place exactly yeah very very cool
00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:37.600
and so how have you felt about that transition
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.940
in your career pulled is there is there conflict
00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:43.100
there or is it has it been a smooth enough transition
00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:45.519
no i think it's been great i think one of the
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.340
wonderful things about a career in academic research
00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:53.549
is the freedom um it's it's just an amazing career
00:15:53.549 --> 00:15:55.929
where you have the freedom to do anything that
00:15:55.929 --> 00:15:58.049
you want and learn anything that you want and
00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:02.490
really both on a scientific a technical and a
00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:05.710
sort of a career path level in terms of you know
00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:08.960
Learning more about administration. You can go
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.440
in any direction you want. So for me, learning
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.799
more about disease and the clinical side of things
00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.580
has been just really educational and really,
00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:20.759
really interesting. And I've loved all the people
00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:22.500
I've met. That's another wonderful thing about
00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:25.899
being at an academic institution is the people
00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:28.759
around you are all amazing. And they all know
00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:30.759
so much and have so much to teach you. And I've
00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.850
really enjoyed that. You ended up working in
00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:36.649
fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. Tell us about
00:16:36.649 --> 00:16:38.929
that. Why did you get interested in that? And
00:16:38.929 --> 00:16:42.889
tell us the microglia connection. Honestly, I've
00:16:42.889 --> 00:16:44.950
always been interested in alcohol. I don't know
00:16:44.950 --> 00:16:47.850
if it's coming from Poland originally. Who knows?
00:16:47.929 --> 00:16:51.470
But when I interviewed for jobs 20 plus years
00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:54.389
ago, I did actually interview in a number of
00:16:54.389 --> 00:16:57.669
alcohol research centers because I did see my
00:16:57.669 --> 00:17:00.570
work going in that direction. At the time, I
00:17:00.570 --> 00:17:03.080
was studying. wiring up of neurons, but that's
00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.579
incredibly important to brain function and to
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:08.140
the reactions to alcohol use. And so that was
00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:11.700
always a lingering interest of mine. And I always
00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:14.640
thought I would come back to it. And so, you
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:20.049
know, having people to talk to about fetal alcohol
00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:23.009
spectrum disorders. Seeing the interest in that,
00:17:23.089 --> 00:17:25.750
seeing the clinical side of it, it just made
00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:28.509
me want to write grants. And that's what we did.
00:17:28.630 --> 00:17:30.349
And we started collaborating with a number of
00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:32.849
other researchers, talking to clinicians, and
00:17:32.849 --> 00:17:35.329
that got us started on this path. And we've been
00:17:35.329 --> 00:17:38.009
on it for, you know, over a decade now. And it's
00:17:38.009 --> 00:17:41.359
fascinating. If you imagine microglia are incredibly
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:43.819
reactive cells. I don't think we necessarily
00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:46.440
understand. I think their roles are so nuanced
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.339
that we don't understand them as well in neurodevelopmental
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:54.759
disorders as we do in neurodegenerative disorders.
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.740
But I think that it would be amazing to imagine
00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:01.900
that they wouldn't. either sense the disruption
00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:04.980
in homeostasis or actually react to the alcohol,
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:09.940
to the disruption itself. And so I think we're
00:18:09.940 --> 00:18:11.839
definitely finding a lot of interactions between
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.200
neurons and microglia. And microglia and other
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.720
cell types, oligodendrocytes, for instance, there's
00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:19.500
a big field now studying those interactions.
00:18:19.619 --> 00:18:21.500
They lead to myelination deficits, which are
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:24.559
very prominent in developmental disorders. So
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:26.640
there's a wealth of things that we need to understand.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.000
And there's just so much that still needs to
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.819
be done. the role of microglia is going to become
00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:38.680
much more important to clear up. Again, with
00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.650
fetal alcohols. spectrum disorders we're talking
00:18:41.650 --> 00:18:43.509
about five percent this is not a rare disease
00:18:43.509 --> 00:18:47.009
it's it's not a rare disease and um it's often
00:18:47.009 --> 00:18:50.289
misdiagnosed so we we don't know the true rates
00:18:50.289 --> 00:18:53.309
um but uh that's one of the wonderful things
00:18:53.309 --> 00:18:55.849
about uh working at the university of rochester
00:18:55.849 --> 00:18:58.569
which has an fasd clinic which is so rare yeah
00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:01.369
yeah really world world leading fasd clinic yeah
00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:04.869
absolutely so you weren't dragged into clinical
00:19:04.869 --> 00:19:07.849
work you slid in it sounds like more of a more
00:19:07.849 --> 00:19:09.930
more of a reasonable transition but you've also
00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:11.950
been tapped for leadership roles here at the
00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:14.990
university. And tell us a bit, how do you feel
00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:18.490
about that? I know from observing you that you
00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:20.950
are a natural leader, but I don't think it always
00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:23.410
sits easily with you. You're not in love with
00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:25.730
it. Is that fair to say? Do you really want the
00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:29.430
honest answer? No, I don't love it. And why not?
00:19:31.450 --> 00:19:35.950
Honestly, I... I'm happy to take charge if other
00:19:35.950 --> 00:19:38.029
people aren't, but it's not a natural position
00:19:38.029 --> 00:19:41.690
for me. I'd much rather work in the lab with
00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:48.019
my team that I understand well. I blame it on
00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:50.160
being a European, but maybe that's not fair.
00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.460
I tend to be blunt. And so tact isn't one of
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:58.400
my, you know, my selling points. But I do enjoy
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.759
people. And I think one of the wonderful things
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:02.680
about leadership is just interacting with a lot
00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.480
of people. So that's interesting, too, because
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.599
tact and bluntness being a bit unvarnished. But
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:11.579
you are and you're going to get embarrassed.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.700
I mean, you're literally a beloved mentor here.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:15.660
You've had so many great people through your
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:19.619
lab. And I think somebody... said to me once,
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.779
like the Mayevska Lab has a very flat organization.
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.920
It's not hierarchical. And you said the word
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.400
team a lot there. And I know it's a little twee
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.299
to say it, but you have this different approach,
00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:32.839
I think, to mentorship. Do you want to talk a
00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.220
bit about that or where it comes from? I just
00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:37.460
really am interested in the people I work with.
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.359
I'm fascinated by our differences. They're often
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.859
different. I've learned over time that things
00:20:42.859 --> 00:20:46.039
that seem incredibly obvious to me are often
00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.069
my misinterpretations of the situation. And so
00:20:49.069 --> 00:20:51.910
I just try to keep an open mind. I come from
00:20:51.910 --> 00:20:53.950
a place where I assume everybody is doing the
00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:56.410
same. And I think that breeds that kind of trust
00:20:56.410 --> 00:21:00.470
where we can talk about problems and solve them.
00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:03.890
I think maybe being blunt can rub people the
00:21:03.890 --> 00:21:06.450
wrong way, but it also means that problems don't
00:21:06.450 --> 00:21:08.730
fester. So we don't spend a year tiptoeing around
00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:10.430
something. So you drag it out into the open and
00:21:10.430 --> 00:21:13.710
get a shine light on it. Yes. Two photons. And
00:21:13.710 --> 00:21:17.309
I do encourage people to tell me what they really
00:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.650
think. I don't always like it and I don't always
00:21:19.650 --> 00:21:21.789
react well. So I tell them, you know, if we have
00:21:21.789 --> 00:21:23.509
this conversation, maybe we'll stop and come
00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:25.970
back tomorrow. But I do actually really want
00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:27.829
to hear what people have to say. And I think
00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:29.829
that's made me a much better person. And I think
00:21:29.829 --> 00:21:32.109
that makes mentorship a lot easier. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32.269 --> 00:21:35.089
Well, you very capably ran our graduate program
00:21:35.089 --> 00:21:37.250
for a number of years. And I think I know I took
00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:40.190
to calling you the clinical psychologist in chief,
00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.670
too. So even though it doesn't always sit easily
00:21:42.670 --> 00:21:45.730
on your shoulders, right, you have that approach
00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:48.369
that people. feel comfortable telling you the
00:21:48.369 --> 00:21:51.549
difficulties. And is it fair to say then, you
00:21:51.549 --> 00:21:53.849
know, mentorship is not just about teaching somebody
00:21:53.849 --> 00:21:56.750
some good science. It's a completely holistic.
00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.509
You're talking about a human being. It's a relationship.
00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:01.529
It's a relationship. And for me, it doesn't stop
00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:05.670
when my mentees leave the lab. I love honestly
00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:08.009
that I love seeing the progression. I love seeing
00:22:08.009 --> 00:22:09.690
the growth. I love seeing what they do next.
00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:13.500
And so to me, it's. building that for my future
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:15.700
as well, just because it's interesting to me
00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:18.000
to make sure that they're in my lives for a long
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000
time and that I learn from them. And like I said,
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.119
I just learned so much from my mentees because
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:25.799
people come in with very different approaches,
00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:28.660
ideas. They see things in different ways. And
00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:30.500
it's always enlightening. You know, I was in
00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:33.809
our opening. I mentioned your NINDS Mentorship
00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:36.170
Award, but there's literally a raft of mentorship
00:22:36.170 --> 00:22:38.609
awards. Your mentees have put you forward for,
00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:41.089
I know I'm embarrassing you, but for many, many
00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:43.490
awards. And we just, as we were opening, we realized
00:22:43.490 --> 00:22:45.390
we can't read all of these into the record. But
00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:47.950
just suffice to say, let's put it on the record
00:22:47.950 --> 00:22:50.349
that this is something you do more than most.
00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:53.069
It's something that I really enjoy. Yeah, yeah,
00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.829
yeah. Definitely clear. Let's go back. You mentioned
00:22:56.829 --> 00:23:00.559
the fact that you're Polish and European. But
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.119
you have a very interesting childhood, right?
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.920
Because you're certainly Polish and European,
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:09.140
but you also did a big chunk of your youth and
00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:13.519
education in Kuwait. I did. So where there probably
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.099
wasn't a lot of alcohol, by the way. Well, you'd
00:23:16.099 --> 00:23:18.180
be surprised, but it wasn't legal. Yeah, right.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.500
And were there during the war as well, is that?
00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:24.559
I was not. Oh, you weren't, okay. So I was there
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.519
6 to 16, and Kuwait is very hot, just in case
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:32.369
you haven't. So school gets out for three, three
00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:34.589
and a half months every summer. You just don't
00:23:34.589 --> 00:23:36.950
want to be there during the summer. So I went
00:23:36.950 --> 00:23:38.789
to an international school. It's an English school,
00:23:38.869 --> 00:23:41.009
but it effectively was an international school.
00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:43.609
And everybody went home for the summer. So Iraq
00:23:43.609 --> 00:23:46.430
invaded Kuwait, I think, August 1st. I was at
00:23:46.430 --> 00:23:50.480
home in Poland. My parents were. In Kuwait. I
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.640
see. But that was the end. It was a very abrupt
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.099
goodbye to Kuwait. We left everything behind.
00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:58.799
They came home with two suitcases in which they
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.819
brought like my awards and my dance leotards.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.039
Completely ridiculous things. Negatives of all
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.940
the pictures. And, you know, and I never got
00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:13.019
to see my friends after that. And I had to start
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:16.759
a new life. So it was. It was definitely a very,
00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:20.519
very interesting time. So go back and explain
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.740
this. So at six years of age, you grew up in
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.680
Poland until you were six. Do you have strong
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:27.460
memories of that time? I do. You do? I do. I
00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:29.380
mean, yes. But you would have started school
00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:33.140
and... Yeah. We have kindergarten, I guess. Kindergarten,
00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:36.980
yeah, yeah. And then at six years of age, your
00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:39.150
family is uprooted. You moved to Kuwait. What
00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:42.150
was the reason? My dad had a job there. At the
00:24:42.150 --> 00:24:44.670
time, it was a fantastic thing to be able to
00:24:44.670 --> 00:24:47.589
leave communist Poland and go and work somewhere
00:24:47.589 --> 00:24:50.329
else, have a passport and earn in dollars. So
00:24:50.329 --> 00:24:53.029
he went for a six -month contract and stayed
00:24:53.029 --> 00:24:56.049
for the 10 years. What was his profession, do
00:24:56.049 --> 00:24:57.130
you want me to ask? He was a computer scientist.
00:24:57.309 --> 00:24:59.950
Computer scientist, okay. And your mom agreed
00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:01.990
to this. That can't have been easy for her. Yeah,
00:25:02.029 --> 00:25:04.609
no, and she went. She's a civil engineer. She
00:25:04.609 --> 00:25:07.170
worked at the Ministry of Planning there, too.
00:25:08.329 --> 00:25:10.950
And it was a very interesting time and definitely
00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:17.250
enriching. So you've this huge formative period
00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:20.990
of your childhood from 10 to 16, or 6 to 16,
00:25:21.190 --> 00:25:24.029
a decade where you're growing up in the Middle
00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:27.569
East, Polish girl, studying at this international
00:25:27.569 --> 00:25:30.210
school. It must have had a massive impact on
00:25:30.210 --> 00:25:33.339
you. Oh, absolutely. You know, I have friends
00:25:33.339 --> 00:25:36.240
from all over the world. I think it was multicultural
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.859
before multicultural school. It was an amazing
00:25:39.859 --> 00:25:42.799
place to learn from others and figure out other
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.359
cultures. I really had friends from everywhere.
00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:48.759
I've tried just about every dish there is across
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.660
the globe. And so it was very interesting. But
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:54.240
it was also like being a military brat, I guess,
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.160
and moving around. I stayed in Kuwait for 10
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.319
years, but most people came for six months to
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:01.519
a year. So there were people cycling in and out
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:05.579
from your class. Yeah, absolutely. But then this
00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:07.700
is quite a wrench, right? So you're 16 years
00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:10.380
of age. There's probably no more important age
00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.039
for a young woman in terms of their friends and
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.319
their set. And you're just wrenched out of there.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.960
Yeah. And how did that go? Honestly, I don't
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.619
remember it as a traumatic time. I remember it
00:26:21.619 --> 00:26:26.579
as a very interesting time. I went to school
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:28.420
in Poland for a while. I then moved to England
00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:32.730
and went to school in England for a while. The
00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:35.630
wonderful thing about U .S. universities is they
00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:38.930
take foreigners and they do give them need -blind
00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:42.210
aid. So even though my dad was earning in Poland,
00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:44.529
I was able to go to school in the U .S., which
00:26:44.529 --> 00:26:46.569
I don't think any other country out there really
00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:50.130
does. And I think that's, you know, something
00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:52.109
that's maybe a little more under fire right now.
00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:55.309
And it's close to home for me. I'm glad you brought
00:26:55.309 --> 00:26:57.670
that up. Yeah, because I do think, you know,
00:26:57.670 --> 00:27:01.779
I... I think I benefited from it hugely. It sort
00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:04.380
of rescued me, honestly, in my academic career.
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.500
But I think I've also given back to America for
00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:09.539
that investment. And I've really enjoyed doing
00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:14.079
that. I'm really glad you brought that up. I
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.039
mean, the number of people who have sat in that
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:19.299
seat there who are completely committed to the
00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:22.859
American enterprise, the American experiment,
00:27:23.059 --> 00:27:26.420
who came here to make... science to do science
00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:28.539
because this is the best place to do science
00:27:28.539 --> 00:27:30.859
on the planet and are so committed to it are
00:27:30.859 --> 00:27:33.599
very worried right now when we if we start turning
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:35.779
our back on the talent pool that oh is always
00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:38.420
going to be attracted here yep to this fantastic
00:27:38.420 --> 00:27:42.240
country so you go back to school in Poland and
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.220
then was it for say did you get sent off to England
00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:47.259
again for secondary school or um no actually
00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:50.000
we had a wonderful opportunity one of the um
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.710
men that was uh evacuated from Kuwait with the
00:27:53.710 --> 00:27:57.829
Polish convoy, was a Catholic member of a Catholic
00:27:57.829 --> 00:28:01.849
community in Bishop Stortford, England. And he
00:28:01.849 --> 00:28:03.890
arranged for us to come and live in an abandoned
00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:08.410
convent. The whole family? No, a whole bunch
00:28:08.410 --> 00:28:11.230
of different kids. It was like 10 of us, different
00:28:11.230 --> 00:28:14.170
grades, different whatever, couldn't finish our
00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:17.809
English education. So we came, our moms rotated
00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:20.369
around coming to take care of us, and we went
00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:23.079
to school. England and I did my I well I did
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:25.440
my first year of A -levels but as I said it was
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.220
a spread of kids very different ages tending
00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:30.839
over into the Harry Potter world here off to
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.500
jolly old England for the staircase was definitely
00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:37.019
like that and it was changing what a great story
00:28:37.019 --> 00:28:40.220
so then the American experiment what brought
00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.119
you you went to Stanford was it that's your first
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.440
stop yeah so I mean this is really it's it is
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.880
an extraordinary thing to think that a young
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:52.809
woman from Poland, with this peculiar educational
00:28:52.809 --> 00:28:55.910
trajectory, gets to Stanford University, one
00:28:55.910 --> 00:28:57.769
of the great institutions on the planet. Tell
00:28:57.769 --> 00:29:00.170
us how that happened. How did it feel to walk
00:29:00.170 --> 00:29:03.630
in the first day? Oh, it was wonderful. But I
00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:06.250
can't toot my horn too much because my brother
00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:08.849
is absolutely brilliant. And he went to Stanford
00:29:08.849 --> 00:29:12.490
before me. And so, you know, when I applied,
00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:14.690
my parents let me go to three places or apply
00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:17.829
to three places where we had friends or family.
00:29:18.009 --> 00:29:20.269
And so my brother was at Stanford. And so I was
00:29:20.269 --> 00:29:23.029
allowed to apply to Stanford. And I had come
00:29:23.029 --> 00:29:26.549
to visit him once when I was 12. And I was just
00:29:26.549 --> 00:29:29.390
so enthralled. It was such a fantastic place.
00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:33.740
So beautiful. the people people from all over
00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:37.359
the world um so yeah it honestly walking in that
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:39.720
it was like the start of the rest of my life
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.259
yeah you know that kind of thing westminster
00:29:42.259 --> 00:29:48.299
bells just angels yeah playing so so you do your
00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.539
undergraduate degree at stanford and what would
00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.730
you tell us what you were studying there I studied
00:29:52.730 --> 00:29:56.150
chemistry at first. That was really thanks to
00:29:56.150 --> 00:29:58.569
my Polish teacher, who really got me into chemistry
00:29:58.569 --> 00:30:01.569
for the three months that I was in Poland. And
00:30:01.569 --> 00:30:03.509
I had done two years of organic chemistry and
00:30:03.509 --> 00:30:06.170
discovered I hated organic chemistry. So I added
00:30:06.170 --> 00:30:09.170
biology, just maybe I would like it more. I liked
00:30:09.170 --> 00:30:11.809
it more. But we started physical chemistry at
00:30:11.809 --> 00:30:13.910
the same time, and I loved physical chemistry.
00:30:14.049 --> 00:30:16.430
So I ended up double majoring in chemistry and
00:30:16.430 --> 00:30:21.460
biology. Yeah. And when did neuroscience? Get
00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:25.180
in there. Peek in. I can tell you the exact lecture.
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:28.759
Yes. Stephen Smith came in to show us pictures
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:32.259
of cultured neurons with philopodia coming out
00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:34.980
of the dendrites to make new synapses. It was
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:37.799
a dynamic image of a neuron in a dish, but it
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.230
was... amazing and it captured my imagination
00:30:40.230 --> 00:30:43.369
and I said yeah okay I'm doing a master's in
00:30:43.369 --> 00:30:45.509
neuroscience at Stanford and after that I was
00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:47.809
like okay I'm applying for a PhD yeah and where
00:30:47.809 --> 00:30:50.329
did you do your PhD Columbia Columbia right so
00:30:50.329 --> 00:30:53.789
over so west coast to east coast different very
00:30:53.789 --> 00:30:56.190
different very different I'm a same coast girl
00:30:56.190 --> 00:30:59.460
but you end up at Columbia to do your PhD, and
00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:01.339
who did you work with there? I worked with Rafael
00:31:01.339 --> 00:31:04.880
Yuste. He had just started his own lab. In fact,
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.980
when I came to rotate, he was like, I haven't
00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:09.799
unpacked anything yet. So I rotated with Marty
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.900
Chalfie, a Nobel Prize winner, which was nice.
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:16.039
And then I rotated with Rafa, and I didn't want
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:18.200
to do my third rotation. I knew this was exactly
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:21.119
what I wanted to do. And a brilliant experience
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:25.059
in the lab? It was hard, which is maybe one of
00:31:25.059 --> 00:31:27.000
the reasons that I have such an affinity for
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.059
graduate students. It was a hard time for me.
00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:31.960
It was a huge learning period and a time of self
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:34.660
-discovery, as I think it is for most grad students.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.940
But I was really lucky to have a wonderful lab
00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.579
environment, great lab mates. And Rafa really
00:31:40.579 --> 00:31:43.720
taught me how to respect and love science. And
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:46.559
I will be forever grateful for that. Now, I do
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.420
know about you that you're not a lover of cities.
00:31:49.579 --> 00:31:52.720
So now you're in Washington Heights. in Manhattan.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.619
How did that all go? It was fantastic. It was?
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.779
I had such a great time. I did my PhD in four
00:31:58.779 --> 00:32:01.359
years because I think by four years I was about
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.000
done. You were ready. I was ready to go. So it
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.980
was a four -year experiment. Yeah, I wouldn't
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.460
want to live there, but I, yeah, being a young
00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:10.099
person in New York City is wonderful. And then
00:32:10.099 --> 00:32:13.849
post -docing? I only interviewed him in one place
00:32:13.849 --> 00:32:16.309
at MIT with McGonkiser. And again, I knew the
00:32:16.309 --> 00:32:18.210
minute I got there, that was going to be my lab.
00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:20.789
And that's where I spent the next five years.
00:32:20.869 --> 00:32:23.430
And it was a wonderful experience that started
00:32:23.430 --> 00:32:26.089
me on the whole in vivo imaging. And it was great.
00:32:27.029 --> 00:32:29.569
Incredible. I mean, to talk about Raphael Yuste
00:32:29.569 --> 00:32:33.289
and McGonkiser, you really ended up falling on
00:32:33.289 --> 00:32:35.230
your feet. I lucked out, didn't I? Well, maybe
00:32:35.230 --> 00:32:38.200
you made your luck. Maybe. yeah yeah and then
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:40.400
to rochester from there and then to rochester
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:45.319
why rochester Because my husband got an offer
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:47.319
at Cornell, and I thought it was in commutable
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:49.839
distance. I applied to all the schools in the
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:51.980
area, and this was one of the places that said
00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.359
come out for an interview. And when I came out,
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:56.240
they were like, have your husband come out too?
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.759
And he came out. He liked his job at Cornell.
00:33:00.859 --> 00:33:02.220
We were worried they weren't going to make me
00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:04.400
an offer if he didn't want to come, but he loved
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.299
it too. And so that's, again, it just felt like
00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:11.470
home. It felt like we were going to do good science
00:33:11.470 --> 00:33:13.930
here while also enjoying it, and it's been true.
00:33:14.130 --> 00:33:17.250
I think a lot of people out there, just thinking
00:33:17.250 --> 00:33:19.170
about married couples, people thinking about
00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:22.619
getting married. Would they want to work directly
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:25.680
hand in hand with their partner, which you guys
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.539
do, right? Yeah. I mean, we did have a difficult
00:33:29.539 --> 00:33:31.599
period in our marriage because when we got here,
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:33.980
our space was still being remodeled and we shared
00:33:33.980 --> 00:33:38.099
an office. And when my office was ready and I
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:40.339
was ready to move out, I said, oh, I'm going
00:33:40.339 --> 00:33:43.059
to really miss you. And he was like, no, no,
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.019
please. I'm done. You can go to your own office
00:33:46.019 --> 00:33:48.599
now. And so that caused some – So it was a five
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.039
-minute difficult issue. Okay. But, yeah, no,
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.000
we like working together. He's the technical
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:57.640
side of things. He grew up with WattWeb. He knows
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:03.440
two photon in and out. And, you know, I really
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:06.940
rely on his expertise a lot. We do well together.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.800
and we're talking about the great Ed Brown, who
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:11.880
the first thing he ever says, always says to
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:13.960
me is, I'm not a neuroscientist, but he's actually
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:17.739
very much a neuroscientist. He's had to be. Yeah,
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.440
yeah. Three boys? Three boys. That's my, for
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:26.260
every boy, I got a little charm. Very good, very
00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:28.219
good, very good. Tell us about that. Tell us
00:34:28.219 --> 00:34:31.079
about, you know, I don't want to get into sort
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:34.659
of gender stuff and that, but three boys, a mother.
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.559
running a big NIH program, leadership roles at
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.860
the university. How do you manage all that? And
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:42.599
how do you think about it? I think this is the
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:46.000
best job on earth. I think that in terms of balancing
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.619
career and life, work -life balance, it's fantastic
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:52.460
because you can make it your own. You can decide
00:34:52.460 --> 00:34:54.260
how much you put into all the different things.
00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:59.059
There's really nothing that I do that means that
00:34:59.059 --> 00:35:00.699
if my kid is sick and I need to pick them up
00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:03.239
from daycare, I can't just go. It might mean
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:04.940
a dropped experiment. We might have to repeat
00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:08.239
something, but I can make that time. I can decide
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.539
how I spend my time. Flexible. Putting in lots
00:35:11.539 --> 00:35:13.780
of hours, but they don't have to be nine to five.
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.219
I can do it after they're gone to bed. I think
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:21.929
the flexibility is really, really key. having
00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:25.050
my own lab. I have loved being a PI more than
00:35:25.050 --> 00:35:28.030
I ever liked being a postdoc or a graduate student.
00:35:28.369 --> 00:35:31.250
And I have loved being a mother. And I think
00:35:31.250 --> 00:35:33.449
those things have never been a conflict for me.
00:35:33.670 --> 00:35:37.650
I've always felt like I could do both relatively
00:35:37.650 --> 00:35:40.869
poorly, but do them with as much verb as I wanted
00:35:40.869 --> 00:35:43.349
to. Two of my daughters are studying in graduate
00:35:43.349 --> 00:35:45.989
school. One's doing neuroscience at Cornell.
00:35:46.769 --> 00:35:51.130
And I think, you know, they and their friends
00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:54.829
will be very relieved to hear a story like that
00:35:54.829 --> 00:35:57.949
because that must be a concern for young women
00:35:57.949 --> 00:36:00.610
going into the profession today with all the
00:36:00.610 --> 00:36:05.510
political backdrop that we have in 2026. Will
00:36:05.510 --> 00:36:09.789
I be able to manage and can I do those pieces
00:36:09.789 --> 00:36:12.730
of life that are important from a family perspective?
00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:15.449
And I think your story is going to help a bunch
00:36:15.449 --> 00:36:17.380
of people out like that. I really do. Well, I
00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:19.460
do think that as professors, we tend to gripe
00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:21.400
a little too much. We do. I'm not saying it's
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:24.019
an easy job. Any job where you want to have upward
00:36:24.019 --> 00:36:26.599
mobility and excitement and all these things,
00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.840
any career is going to be hard. So there are
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.519
definitely hard times. I'm not trying to paint
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.239
it as it isn't. But yes, I wouldn't choose another
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.360
career if I had the option. Let me ask you. Maybe
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.360
it's a little politically indelicate because
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:45.219
I think I read in some background material when
00:36:45.219 --> 00:36:48.099
we were doing some research, when you were beginning
00:36:48.099 --> 00:36:50.659
your family, that there were some male figures
00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:53.380
in the academy that said discouraging things
00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:57.039
to you and don't hire people and so on. Tell
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.400
us about that and what impact it had on you.
00:37:00.349 --> 00:37:02.929
Yeah, I got a lot of interesting advice. All
00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:06.769
of it was very well -meaning. But moving with
00:37:06.769 --> 00:37:09.429
a six -week -old to Rochester and starting a
00:37:09.429 --> 00:37:12.030
faculty position, I really wasn't in a place
00:37:12.030 --> 00:37:15.309
to follow what I think is traditional advice
00:37:15.309 --> 00:37:19.750
of set up your own lab. Learn the ins and outs.
00:37:19.789 --> 00:37:21.989
Do the things yourself. Don't hire people until
00:37:21.989 --> 00:37:24.550
you really know what you're doing. I had to hire
00:37:24.550 --> 00:37:26.869
people. I had to train people and get them to
00:37:26.869 --> 00:37:31.400
help me. I was coming in tired. I wasn't going
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:36.019
to be able to work 12 -hour days. And so I did.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:38.719
And I think you'll always get well -meaning advice.
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:40.500
You should always decide whether it's right for
00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:43.000
you or not. I don't hold it against the people
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:44.559
who gave me that advice. It worked for them.
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.639
It was valuable to know how they would do it.
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:49.860
But that's not the way I did. Just on that work
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:52.199
-life balance thing, what do you do to blow off
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:56.889
steam? Or how do you approach that? good enough?
00:37:56.949 --> 00:38:01.690
Is it part of the enriched side? No, work is
00:38:01.690 --> 00:38:03.329
not good enough. But work is definitely part
00:38:03.329 --> 00:38:05.909
of it. There are definitely parts of my job that
00:38:05.909 --> 00:38:08.349
I don't enjoy and that are a slog. There's other
00:38:08.349 --> 00:38:11.489
parts that feel great. They're really the fun
00:38:11.489 --> 00:38:14.309
part and they don't feel like work. But no, I
00:38:14.309 --> 00:38:18.340
think you have to have... some balance and some
00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:21.440
time for yourself. To me, that's family time.
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:23.360
And that's good enough. Maybe for other people,
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:25.940
it isn't. Or maybe it's, you know, exercise or
00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:29.920
what have you. Having good friends is really,
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:33.219
really important. So I make sure to keep up all
00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:35.679
my friendships, whether they're out of work or
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.829
at work. I think those things. Having a good
00:38:38.829 --> 00:38:41.769
support system makes all the difference. But
00:38:41.769 --> 00:38:44.150
for me, a lot of my time to blow off steam is
00:38:44.150 --> 00:38:46.230
spending time with the family. Last question.
00:38:46.269 --> 00:38:49.190
In the context of everything that's going on,
00:38:49.230 --> 00:38:51.510
I know you're talking about academics who gripe.
00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:53.989
Do you feel hopeful when you look at the next
00:38:53.989 --> 00:38:56.809
five to ten years for the scientific enterprise?
00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:01.150
There's a lot of changes right now. I think that
00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:05.309
a lot of them are very frightening. You and I
00:39:05.309 --> 00:39:07.190
have talked about this a lot. You have a much
00:39:07.190 --> 00:39:10.030
rosier outlook on it than I do. Pathological
00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:13.230
optimism. Absolutely. I do worry. I think science
00:39:13.230 --> 00:39:15.630
is changing. It's changing too fast and in ways
00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:20.369
that may be hard to fix down the road. So I am
00:39:20.369 --> 00:39:25.250
worried about the changes. I do think that we're
00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.510
not necessarily going in the right direction.
00:39:28.690 --> 00:39:33.059
But I still think that this is... Just the people
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:35.179
who are involved in the scientific endeavor are
00:39:35.179 --> 00:39:37.659
so amazing and they're all pulling together.
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.820
It's still a really good place to be. Anya Majewska,
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.739
thank you for taking the time out for Neuroscience
00:39:42.739 --> 00:39:44.960
Perspectives. Really, really great to catch up
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.260
with you and introduce you to our audience. Thank
00:39:47.260 --> 00:39:47.760
you so much.