How the ND Brain May Be Wired for Pseudo Joy/Pseudo Peace, BEEPS and Addiction with Ed Khouri

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Welcome to the Near Diverse Christian Couples Podcast, a podcast
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with Mental Health News Radio hosted by Reverend Dan and
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doctor Stephanie Holmes. Near Diverse Christian Couples Podcast selects guests
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that are professionals in the field of autism or individuals
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who want to share their journey from a Christian near
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diverse couple's experience. The purpose is to encourage, inspire, and
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remind you that in Christ there is hope for the future.
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Our focus to educate and equip you through effective strategies
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that will help energize couples and those professionals who work
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with neurodiverse Christian couples. Brought to you by the Autism
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Spectrum Resources for Marriage and Family LOLLC. Now Here are
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your hosts, Dan and Stephanie Holmes.
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Welcome back to Nerdiverse Christian Couples.
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I'm Stephanie, I'm Dan, and we are welcoming back a
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guest on before, Ed Corey, Welcome to the show.
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Ed, thank you, I'm glad to be with you. Thanks
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for having me so.
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When we had ed on before, we focused a lot
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on his book, which I had used partially in a class,
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Becoming the Face of grace, navigating lasting relationships with God
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and others.
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And today we're starting a new series.
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This month, the theme is going to be about addictions
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because research shows that nerdivergent folks, adhd autistic folks tend
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to have a higher percentage of having some sort of addiction,
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which can start with maybe a special or passionate interest
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that can cross over into addiction. So we're gonna talk
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about why that is with Pseudo Gray and Pseudo Joy
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and Pseudo Peace. But first, will you introduce yourself and
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kind of your background into the world of addiction and
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addiction recovery.
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Well, I come out of a background of addiction. My
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pictures should be next to addiction in the dictionary because
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I could get real compulsive about just about anything. Drinking, drugging, exercise, work, perfection, performance,
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you name it, and I probably either had an issue
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with it or could easily develop an issue with it.
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I spent most of my life working with addictions and trauma.
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I completed ministry training to work with addictions in nineteen
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eighty seven, was ordained in nineteen eighty eight, and have
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pretty much been in that field ever since. I've worked
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in secular as well as Christian rehabs and treatment kind
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of programs in pretty much every phase of treatment except
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for detox. I never worked in detox. My wife and
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I started a ministry called Equipping Hearts for the Harvest
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in two thousand and four. She spent a lot of
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time doing work with in private practice with women who'd
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experienced significant trauma and oftentimes with addiction in one way,
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shape or form mixed in. Since two thousand and four,
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we've pretty much been traveling, training and creating resources to
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help train people to do the same kind of things
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that we've done.
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All right, well, I'll set up a little bit of
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the neurology here and how it ties into the pseudo grace,
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pseudo joy. We're gonna talk about four peas and beeps.
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Ed also is a co author, one of several co
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authors of Joy Starts Here, which is my introduction to
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you of what I call the Wilder cannon. Once you
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found one, started digging in all the books and start
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digging it. So a big thing. Listeners, if you haven't
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listened to some of our past podcast so a part
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of the brain we talk about a lot on this
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show is the orbital prefrontal cortex and that is known
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as the joy center relation circuits, developing our relationship circuits.
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And what we know through research is in ADHD and
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autistic brains, that ofc is underdeveloped, not necessarily damaged unless
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there's been some kind of traumatic brain injury in addition
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to that, but can be underdeveloped. And with an underdeveloped
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orbital prefrontal cortex, that's going to affect identity, that's going
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to affect a regulation, it's going to affect being in relationship.
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And we know that autistic folks in general tend to
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be prone to a restricted special interest. So the research
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shows the more I go into my restricted special interest,
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even if it's a good thing like memorizing Bible versus
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let's just pick a good one, even if it's something
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that's really good, but I'm doing it in isolation. I'm
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doing that instead of relationship. I'm kind of like building
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my left brain more and not really developing that orbital
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prefrontal cortex. The brain is going to be kind of
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set up or primed towards pseudo joy and pseudo peace
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and any activity that kind of gives me that hits,
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so to speak. And the more I have that hits,
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the more I want to keep doing it, and then
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that could set up for something that's like an addiction
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that is slightly different than a restricted special interest.
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But that's how I want you.
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To lead us down that path from grace to the
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peace to the beacons. So start us off with grace
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a reminder of what that is.
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Well, Grace means that I'm special in favorite to someone.
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Grace and joy are two forms of the same Greek word.
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So where I get special in favorite, I get a
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high energy response that they're glad to be with me.
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And that dynamic is responsible for helping us develop healthy
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attachments with mom, dad, and primary caregivers very early in life. Now,
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what's fascinating about addiction and the narrow science and attachment
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is both are very dopamine based. Joy is having someone
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in real time, face to face triggers a release of
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dopamine in the right hemisphere or for the right hemisphere.
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Which says, oh that was good, let's do that again.
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God really intended that joy based attachments are the greatest
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source of joy and pleasure in life. And the more
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that I interact with people that are really glad to
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be with me because they see me especial and favorite,
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the better my brain regulates dopamine, and the better my
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attachments tend to be. Those attachments are the foundation for
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how the rest of the right hemisphere, including the identity
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center and the right orbit a prefrontal cortex work so healthy. Grace, joy,
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attachment are the building blocks for a strong, healthy identity
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and are foundational for learning to self regulate. Now, the
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problem gets to be when.
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People don't particularly see me a special and favorite, or.
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It's not consistent I glad to be with you.
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Experiences are diminished, which means my brain doesn't regulate dopamine
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very well, which means life feels a little less pleasurable. Now,
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one of the things that's fascinating about autism spectrum disorder
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is that many people with autism, they lack their dopamine
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receptors at a couple of sites, lack the same density
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that other people might have. The reason that's important is
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because if you lack receptor sites, that means you won't
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feel the same level of pleasure as other people do
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that don't have that issue with dopamine receptors, So you
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can be doing joyful things, it just may not feel
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as joyful, which can make it more challenging to form
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secure attachments, strong stable identity, self regulate.
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And it also.
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Means that we're we feel like we're missing something. And
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when the brain is craving healthy attachment and there's dopamine
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based glad to be with you moments and they're not there,
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we tend to do what I call the four deadly peace,
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which help create an artificial sense of grace and glad
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to be with you because you're special in favored.
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All right, ed, why don't you lead us through those
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four p's, all right?
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The four deadly piece, the four deadly peas are deadly
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because they are the kind of automatic things that our
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brain does when very early in life, reliable sources of grace,
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ter of enjoyer unavailable. Those are the first P is pleasure.
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I'm sorry performing pleasure is one of them. But the
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first P is pleasing, which means I do things to
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please people to gain an artificial sense of well, they
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really are glad to be with me. The second one
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is performing, I'll perform for people, jump through whatever hoops
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you want me to. And the other two are pain
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and pleasure, which means I minimize things that are painful.
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I try to do things that don't make me feel
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or I avoid things that make me feel uncomfortable, and pleasure,
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which means I do things that make me feel comfortable.
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So we've got pleasing, performing, minimizing pain, maximizing pleasure. Those
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happen automatically because our brain's attachment center is wired to
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need glad to be with you moments, and if those
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are not authentically there through your grace driven joy, then
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it doesn't mean the brain says, oh well, I'm done.
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It tries to look for those in whatever way it can,
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and pleasing, performing, pain, and pleasure are the four deadly peas.
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Become a very toxic guidance system for our lives because
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instead of having our identity built on glad to be
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with you, my identity gets built around how can I
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please people? How can I perform for them? What feels
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good and what feels bad become pretty much my guidance
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systems for how I live.
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It's so taking those two it looks like they're grouped.
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The first two pleasing or performing have a notice me
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kind of feel to it, which if I'm not getting
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going back connecting back to the grace and the joy idea,
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if I'm not if somebody is not happy to see me,
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then what I'm going to attempt to do is be
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more noticeable. Yes, And if I can earn it in
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some way, if I can wave my hands, if I
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can be loud, then I'm more likely at least thinking
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that I'm going to get that desire of they are
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glad to be with me, and simultaneously I'm going to
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satisfy myself in that regard by pushing down a pain
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or elevating a pleasure.
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Yes, that's exactly right. And these are things that happen
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without making conscious choices. They're intuitive, and they begin to
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happen in infancy. So this really isn't something you have
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to be smart to figure out. It's just something that
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happens automatically because our attachment center needs connection.
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If the so I want to connect the dots a
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little bit to that dopamine idea. So that's the first
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time I'd heard that that is new information. That might
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be whatever the receptor thing is isn't as dent as
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somebody else's it could. So if that's true, if the
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amplification of joy and perhaps other things is not as strong,
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might it then also be possible that I don't really
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understand the level to which I could experience right and
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therefore leading into some of the pain and pleasure I man,
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I kind of thought right here, sitting on top of
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my brain, and it's having a very difficult time being coherent.
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It feels like I could lead a dull affect because
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of such a thing. I don't know how to express.
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And if that's true, If what you're saying is this
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is true since origin, then I don't know a different way. Okay. Yeah.
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The issue with opamine receptor density is the same in
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people who have long term substance abuse issues or substance
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misuse issues. Sometimes it's not really clear whether that is
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a precursor or whether it's the result of long term
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substance abuse. But what it really means is people don't
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necessarily feel the same amount of pleasure in life as
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they might otherwise. Dan, you were talking about a lower affect,
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and that's entirely possible. It's just kind of like you're
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trying to eat a really well seasoned meal, but it
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tastes more bland than what it would otherwise.
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Yeah, which makes that glad to be with you feeling
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more difficult to consume and reflect to someone else.
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Yes, it really requires a lot more practice to get
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to say, to get the same effect. Now, what's interesting
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is I did a little look at autism and attachment
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this morning, and one study showed that close to half
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of people with autism spectrum disorder are able to securely
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attach to parents, which means that you know, close to
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half are able to regulate dopamine reasonably well, because it's
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hard to form a secure attachment without that. It's a
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little bit lower than the general population, but it's still
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pretty significant, so it's not it's not unheard of that
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you can be somewhere on the spectrum and be able
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to regulate dopamine.
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Yeah, and that's good news.
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And I heard you also say that this part of
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the bank and doctor Waters also said this part of
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the brain can be trained.
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Yes, it can be trained, absolutely all right.
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So we've talked about the four piece with the lack
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of grace, griven joy attachment that can lead us to
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the four Deadly peas, and we've mentioned the beeps a
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lot on the show. But with that, the beeps are
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what can lead us to the addiction. So now take
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us into the beeps and the pseudo Joy and the
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pseudo piece.
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Well, in one sense, the four pie's are pseudo joy
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and pseudo piece because they are designed to give us
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a shot of dopamine. Serotonin is the neurotransmitter that helps
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us calm and quiet, so they can do both. The
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four piece can give us a dopamine shot or a
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serotonin shot. Now over time, the four p's become more
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deeply ingrained and can get more extreme as we get older,
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and that's where we can develop what I call beeps.
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Beeps are the behaviors, events, experiences, people, or substances that
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our brain's attachment center really locks into to take the
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place of genuine, joyful, grace based connections with God and
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others and beeps. The reason I like the acrid and
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beeps is because it applies to substances, but it can
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apply to codependency and all kinds of behavioral addictions, so
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there are almost an infinite variety and flavor of beeps
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out there.
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People.
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In my experience, people with substance disorders generally have more
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than one beeps. One or two tend to be dominant,
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but if you begin trying to deal with one and
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become sober from it, it's really not unusual for a
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secondary one to pop up and take the place of
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the other one because a brain really has latched onto
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beeps as a way to regulate. And the problem with
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beeps is because they take the place of genuine, joyful
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connections with God and others. The absence of beeps is
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also draumatic to the brain once you develop a strong
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attachment to them. It's called withdrawal psychological and then physical
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withdrawal at times.
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And to say it out loud, a beep isn't required
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to be immoral.
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It could be food.
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It could be food.
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Yeah, the problem gets to be when it really gets
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out of balance and becomes takes the place of genuine,
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joyful connections with God and others. So like, I like pizza,
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but it's never taken a place of joyful connections with
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God and others unless my wife won't let me eat it, right,
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But so, yeah, beeps is I mean, pizza is a
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good thing. Doesn't have to be a beeps. But you know,
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exercise could become one. Work could be form one. I mean,
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it's really good to do a good job at work,
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to be industrious and be responsible, but it's not good
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when that takes the place of genuine, joyful connections with
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God and others.
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So when we think, you know addiction, we think first
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substance like drug and alcohol or something like that, which
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will have that physiological withdrawal. But the other things, like
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like you're saying work, which some people might think, well,
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I just have a really good work ethic.
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I just like to work hard.
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But the main thing I'm hearing is it's taking the
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place of relationship and it's out of balance.
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Now, yes, out of that as it is, and it's
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in some of the researching I was doing on autism
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and addiction, I found it interesting that people on the
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autism spectrum tend to have higher substance abuse disorder rates
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than the general population. But that also means well in addition,
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they also have higher rates of behavioral addictions, specifically gaming,
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internet use, and porn. They're all very attention dominant things.
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They you can get very fixated on those things and
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they can become a way to self medicate, especially if
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trauma or bullying has been involved.
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Yes, I would say in anecdotally, porn screens, technology, drug, alcohol, sex,
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those are the top that we see. And we had
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doctor Janis Coddle on who is a porn sex addiction specialist,
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and she said with her porn sex addiction autistics or
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ADHD folks, there is usually substance yes as a secondary.
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So the restricted special interest, which is part of the
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diagnostic criteria, can be useful to help self regulate. But
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if that is the only way you're trying to regulate
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outside of attachment to God, outside attachment to people, And
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would you say all moral thing like technology could become
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a beep if I'd rather do that than spend time
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with God and spend time with us others. I'm getting
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you said something in the in their Grace book about
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it should be an alarm system. If someone who loves you,
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who's invested in you, says, you know, I've noticed or
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I'm concerned about your relationship or interaction with whatever the
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thing is, that should be like an indicator light that
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maybe something is out of balance. And that sometimes can
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be hard to hear. And we also hear something that
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you said. It's like if one of our clients is
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like working on one addiction, let's say porn, they'll say
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it feels like when I get that managed, alcohol pops
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back up, and then when I go over here to
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work on alcohol. Then the porn pops back up. So
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can you talk a little bit about that from your
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from the background of.
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It's more than managing your addictions.
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Yeah, if you know, I work from the foundation of
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attachment and that being joy based. So let's say I'm
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an alcoholic and I have worked my steps and I'm
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really no longer using alcohol. That doesn't mean that I
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now have a secure attachment and joyful connections have gotten
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other people. In the absence of those healthy attachments, my
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brain is going to still be craving and it's going
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to find probably start working with the four p's and
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pull into beep something that will help regulate pain, pleasure,
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and emotions for me. So it's almost a given. The
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absence of a substance does not mean that you now
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have healthy attachments. It means that you can now begin
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to work on growing joy and growing healthier attachments with
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God and with other people. That's one of the big
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things people don't understand and recovery. Sometimes we used to
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call it a dry drunk. Well, they're on a dry drunk.
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They're just a dry drunk, And what that means is
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they're no longer drinking but they're just being and honoree
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as as they ever were before because they're not connecting
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with joy. It's why in recovery, growing learning to do
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things that grow joy and help us practice is so critical.
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I noticed when you went through the list of I
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don't know, top beeps, the gaming, internet use, and porn.
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What was interesting about that grouping, and there's probably others
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you can add, is they were all three of those
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are heavy sensitive input sensory input activities. Gaming, you are
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immersed and a thing in almost every sense the body has.
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You're touching something, you're hearing something, you're seeing something. A
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lot of times now you're interacting with another person, you're
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playing with the same you know, Internet use is the
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same thing as mentally stimulating. If you are learning about
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whatever it is, you're learning about it extremely mentally simulating,
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and porn in the same way right visually stimulating. You
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Compare that now I'm gonna go, I hope I don't
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over use this idea. Compare that to the glad to
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be with you with a reduced amplification in a dopamine receptor.
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If I haven't learned to expand that capability, the game
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is always greater in attractiveness because it is hitting more
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of my ability to sense and feel and be than
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having a conversation at the dinner table, for instance.
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Yes, yeah, it's one of the reasons is that abstinence
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can be really important in recovery because if you're getting
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a massive dopamine hit from something and you're trying to
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do joy which is less of a dopamine hit, your
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brain is always going to prefer the massive dopamine hit.
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It's one of the big problems with something like cocaine,
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massive dopamine hit compared to you know, somebody glad to
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be with me, it just doesn't compare. So my brain
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almost has to be sober from cocaine so that it
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begins to heal and normalize so that genuine joyful connections
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are good. One of the things they've noticed in brain
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is if you're doing something with massive dopamine hits, say cocaine,
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for example, the brain will actually produce less dopamine after
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or not the brain, but you'll produce less dopamine after
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a while, and because of brain's efficient, it's getting dopamine
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depleted from cocaine, so it's not producing as much dopamine anymore,
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there's a period of withdrawal where the you're no longer
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doing the cocaine, but brain has to increase to get
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back to a normal level of dopamine production, which means
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in early stage recovery you feel pretty measurable. And I
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suspect that the same thing is true with any beeps
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attachment that gives a massive hit of dopamine.
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Right So that attachment, that attachment center, if it's easier,
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and I think that's part of it. I think it
384
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was a Marcus Autism Center lecture I was at and
385
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the speaker was Emily Rubin, and she said that in
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the autistic brain, it doesn't make a distinction between the
387
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biological personal attachment like attachment to a person and attachment
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to my computer game console, that that's like equal in
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my brain. And it also the brain doesn't distinguish between
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she works with students. She said, if students are in
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the classroom and there's lots of things going on, the
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neurotypical brain, the moment the teacher starts to talk, the
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neurotypical brain goes human voice. Most important thing to pay
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attention to right now, Look up and pay attention to
395
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where the voice is coming from where to the autistic person,
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the autistic student, that voice and the clock and the
397
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.839
noise outside and the lawnmower and the pencil tapping are
398
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like all equal noises without that drive that the human
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00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:55.759
voice or someone calling my name is a bigger motivator
400
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:57.440
or drive to pay attention to.
401
00:28:57.559 --> 00:28:59.960
So the brain's trying to figure out what to pay
402
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.960
attention to. So if I like the.
403
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:05.880
Sound of the lawnmower outside because I like my lawnmowers,
404
00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.119
I'm going to be my attention is going to.
405
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Be driven there too.
406
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:14.759
So there's like the dopamine attention, motivation, attachment as a
407
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.400
complex system there. It's not quite cut and dry as
408
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:21.119
you know we're making it sound to be.
409
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:29.480
Almost the same thing is true as addictions mature. If
410
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:34.359
I have a choice between paying attention to a screen
411
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and my wife's voice, guess what my brain is going
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to tune out the life and pay attention to my screen.
413
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It's just because where my strongest attachment lies is where
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my attention is going to be devoted. I mean, the
415
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attachment center says, is this personal to me? And if
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I have a stronger attachment to my screen than I
417
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.240
do my wife, guess what's going to feel more personal
418
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:09.079
to my brain. It's not my spouse. It's part of
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the dynamics of addiction.
420
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:16.680
That sounds like before you start Dan, that sounds like
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where your treasure is there, your heart will be also, Yeah.
422
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Where your attachment is there, your heart's going to be yep. Yeah.
423
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The I suppose that's the reason practice is so important
424
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in this. It's going to feel it's going to feel
425
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a little hollow at first, but you've got to practice
426
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long enough to start changing what's what's important to your brain. Yes,
427
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:50.279
if the screen had been important for but I don't know,
428
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some measure called ten or whatever it is, and your
429
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.960
spouse is of measured three. I mean, you know, making
430
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.759
up some arbitrary scape. You've got to spend enough time
431
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doing something hard and generally unrewarding until the balance starts
432
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:13.319
to flip over and you actually do start to see
433
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.079
the reward against that. So, from an expectation on what
434
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:21.240
does this feel like during the transition, it probably feels
435
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.519
a little bit like how you explained coming off of cocaine,
436
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:28.759
that withdrawal idea of not only is it withdrawal, but
437
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:32.039
now I'm actively doing something I'm naturally not good at
438
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:37.240
I'm also not getting any good feedback because internally either
439
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:42.640
and it's in almost every form, it is incredibly uncomfortable.
440
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:49.920
Yes, yes, recovery is not comfortable. But one of our friends,
441
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:55.079
they might Die, created the best relapsed prevention material I've
442
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:58.880
ever seen. It's called the Genesis process. Mike said, when
443
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:01.240
you're kind of in a double like I don't want
444
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:02.880
to do this, and I really don't want to do
445
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.039
this either, he said, the right thing is the hard thing.
446
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:12.519
The right thing is the hard thing, and I wish
447
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.880
it was there was an easy way to say that,
448
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.599
but I believe Mike was right. I mean, learning the
449
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:27.000
skills and the tools to grow recovery is uncomfortable. Just
450
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:33.640
is whether you have an autism spectrum issue or whether
451
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:37.680
you're in recovery from a BEEPS attachment of some kind.
452
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The hard thing is always uncomfortable.
453
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:45.519
Okay, So you've provided the background for one of the
454
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.599
techniques I try to use with my couples. Now I
455
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:54.000
have the neuroscience and biology stuff behind it, So first
456
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:56.880
of all, I want to I'm feeling every wife out
457
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.079
there going, wait a minute, he's going to have to endure.
458
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:03.079
Being with me to make this well.
459
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.200
That doesn't make me feel very attached to want to
460
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sit on a couch with him where he learns to
461
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:11.759
endure being with me over a screen. But one of
462
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:14.000
the things I have a couples do when we've been
463
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.960
in this negative cycle and there's been a lot of
464
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.680
beeps and we're trying to kind of we've lived parallel
465
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lives and we're trying to get back online, is I say,
466
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you know, maybe we don't have I'm glad to be
467
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:29.799
with you joy yet, but can we create peace? Can
468
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:32.400
we be in the same space and not be in
469
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:38.119
angst with each other? Can we talk about gardening tools,
470
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which is not a connecting topic, let's say, but can
471
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.079
we share space and not be waiting to trigger or
472
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.480
somebody be in enemy mode or non relational mode. And
473
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:52.880
so we start small with like wooden, non relational, non
474
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.839
connecting conversations just to get the brain, a central nervous
475
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.680
system neutral with each other.
476
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.319
So that's kind of it doesn't feel.
477
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.880
Very great though in the beginning it kind of it
478
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.320
doesn't feel anything for it. So the non autistic spouse
479
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.320
to be like this is really hard, and the autistic
480
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.119
spouse is like really having to push through like we
481
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:18.800
talk about watches, birds like I don't know what to
482
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:23.000
talk about for ten minutes, and it's it's not rewarding
483
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:26.000
for either person at that point, right, So like the
484
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.480
autistic person who's giving up the beat to be from
485
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.880
the relationship and the person who's been craving connection and
486
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.719
I'm glad to be with you, is like I just
487
00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:36.079
have to start with I can tolerate you.
488
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:38.239
Like that feels really awful.
489
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:44.559
It does, but it's it's not a bad place to start.
490
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:48.760
I mean, you start where you are, right, We don't
491
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:53.800
start where we wish we were. I think sometimes silence
492
00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:59.719
can be a good thing. Silence are quiet together, is
493
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:05.840
helps build trust and helps serotonin regulation. The other thing
494
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:12.880
that's important for spouses is you need to be able
495
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:18.280
to develop joy with people outside of your relationship with
496
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:22.320
your spouse in safe places. I don't mean try that
497
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:26.480
with a cute guy next door. I mean that's one
498
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:30.199
of the things that small groups that peers can do,
499
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.480
is help you experience joy outside of what has been
500
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.039
a painful marriage relationship. If you can keep your tank
501
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:46.719
somewhat filled that way, it's going to be easier to
502
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.079
work with a spouse when it's not particularly super joyful.
503
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.719
So we are not saying give up, it's not going
504
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.920
to happen. But if we're in this like trying to
505
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:05.360
quiet together, kind of endure tolerate each other, I can't
506
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.000
do that as the non autistic spouse. If I'm not
507
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:11.480
having my joy filled somewhere else, there has got to
508
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.920
be some space in our covenant marriage.
509
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:15.519
That's not an affair that.
510
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.280
Somebody is happy to be with me, because our brains
511
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.039
need like it's not a wish, like the brain needs joy.
512
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:26.039
And if I don't have that joyful connection in my marriage,
513
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:29.480
I have to have community or safe people to kind
514
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.559
of fill me up. Because I'm going to be a
515
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:37.480
part of helping someone else's brain retrain, that's not going
516
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.000
to be joyful connection for me.
517
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:46.480
It's important to remember that social smiles do not fool
518
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:51.800
the brain. So if I'm not authentically glad to be
519
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:56.880
with someone, I can smile at them, but I think
520
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.760
it's forty milliseconds there or one six of a Their
521
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.559
brain will know if I'm authentically glad to be with
522
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:08.119
them or not. If I'm not, there'll be no dopamine exchange.
523
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:11.239
No matter how much you smile at me, but it's
524
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.440
that authentic I am really glad to be with you.
525
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:18.920
And I think that's where grace is so important, because
526
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:22.119
part of grace is seeing your partner through God's eyes.
527
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:26.559
And God is always glad to be with your spouse,
528
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:31.400
your partner, or whoever. So it's helpful to say, God,
529
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.400
will you help me see them through your eyes? Because
530
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.599
and that's the other reason practicing with other people could
531
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:42.960
be so important, because if you don't know how to
532
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.440
be authentically glad to be with someone, you can grin
533
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:48.920
a your partner till the cows come home. And all
534
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.760
that will happen is the cows come home. There'll be
535
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.880
no dopamine exchange going on in the brain, There'll be
536
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.280
no joy.
537
00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:59.639
So there's three parts I want to tie into that.
538
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.159
Said before, like, okay, whatever the deadly pee or the
539
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.599
beep is. Step one is you've got to not do that, right.
540
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:13.320
So whatever I've done, I've done my detox. I'm not
541
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.039
operating in that beep that did not automatically attach me
542
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:19.599
to God or others, right, So we've still got to
543
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.800
do that. And then with our autistic folks, that doesn't
544
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:26.000
mean you have the social skills or relationship skills to
545
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.480
be able to attach to do that. Yet, So there
546
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.079
might be because we're very strong and we will not
547
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:35.280
do any couple's work with someone who's in an active addiction.
548
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.000
That seems like a waste of time and energy. If
549
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.199
there's an active addiction involved, there's no point to try
550
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.320
to build joy. But like you said, the addiction has
551
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.599
a greater pull. So it might be. As I'm kind
552
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:50.679
of processing this out loud, it's I've got to stop
553
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:52.920
the beep, and then that's got to create some safety
554
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.199
for the other spouse. I've got to learn some skills
555
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:59.599
on how to do some attachment in addition to retraining
556
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.800
my dope. I mean, I've got to learn the social
557
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:06.239
relational skills and then build the attachment because if now
558
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.199
we're just sitting in a room together and I don't
559
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:11.320
know how to have a conversation, right, that's not going
560
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.400
to be helpful to attachments. Since a lot of autistic
561
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:18.519
folks aren't very effusive with their face, right, we've got
562
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.280
to have some conversation relational skills. If that face is
563
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.599
not going to light up and show you know, I'm
564
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:26.239
glad to be with you.
565
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:30.320
Joy because it's a social smile or trying.
566
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.079
To be effusive, and so they might not have those
567
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:36.800
effusive emotions. And I think that's radical acceptance from the
568
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:41.039
non autistic spouse. If you're expecting effusive, that's not something
569
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:44.159
that's going to happen, right.
570
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.760
And in working with couples and watching them begin to
571
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:52.000
do joy smiles together, it is the rare few that
572
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.880
are effusive when they start with this, more often than non,
573
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.599
it just feels awkward and guys, almost too almost to
574
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:03.880
a tea, you're going, why am I doing this? Why
575
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.480
did my wife drag me to this? But you know,
576
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.519
after you know, a week of practicing, you can tell
577
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:16.079
that the joy levels have grown significantly. That's a thrive training.
578
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.840
So yeah, I watch this when I do, when I
579
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:26.960
help lead thrive training, just feels awkward. One other thing beeps.
580
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:30.440
It's important to be abstinate from if at all possible,
581
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.599
Like you can't stop eating food. If you have a
582
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:39.440
food beeps cocaine, you need to stop. But the four
583
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:43.159
peas are a little different because they are such a
584
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:47.960
layer underneath all that that the tendency to please or
585
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.039
perform or do pain or pleasure is going to continue
586
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:57.840
to some degree even after you're dealing with the beeps.
587
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:02.559
I mean, if you think about if you think about it,
588
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.280
you know, you could say beeps or the fruit of
589
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:12.400
non secure attachment. Well, the four piece maybe some of
590
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:17.440
the stalk that's holding those up. So I tend to
591
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:19.960
think that in a lot of cases, the four peas
592
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.719
endure longer than beeps.
593
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:30.039
I want to listen. I want to shred that just
594
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:36.400
a little bit more finely, because I can already hear
595
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.880
because I thought of it. Are the four pie's actually
596
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.599
something that you want to make go away? Or in
597
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:50.920
some form are they? Can they be healthy coping mechanisms
598
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.159
as long as they don't take root into something actually
599
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.519
supplanting some other. Because I look at pain, what feels
600
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.400
bad to me, there is a reality that all of
601
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:09.920
us want to mitigate that, and it doesn't necessarily have
602
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:14.719
to be a I guess I questioned, is it something
603
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.039
we really want to push away or do we recognize
604
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:21.519
it as a mitigation a natural response to something. And
605
00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:25.159
it's the misuse of this that we're really on the
606
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:28.079
situation that we're really trying to pay attention to.
607
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:34.920
When I'm thinking about the four p's, I'm talking about
608
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:39.760
things that flow out of non secure attachment with God
609
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:46.159
and other people. If my attachment is beginning to shift
610
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:52.159
to grace and joy based connections with God and other people,
611
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:57.039
I will be more led by God that i will
612
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:02.400
be my desire to avoid pain. I'll be more led
613
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:08.719
because I'll be more I will find pleasure and other
614
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:12.079
things where didn't used to be there. I won't have
615
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:18.239
to please and perform because God already looks at me
616
00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:20.719
as a special in favorite. I don't have to please
617
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:24.639
or perform for him to earn that. So while some
618
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.679
of what I'm trying to say is the motive that
619
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:34.280
fuels the four peas is leaving, which means if my
620
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.440
attachment with God is growing more secure, I'm still not
621
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:39.679
gonna want to stick my finger on a hot stove,
622
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.360
and I'm still gonna want to avoid sunburn, but I
623
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.039
will be less driven by my lack of joy in
624
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:55.880
peace than I was otherwise. You got to remember the
625
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.079
scripture says Jesus for the joy set before him endured
626
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:02.239
the cross. I mean, I think part of the reason
627
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.599
he sweated in the garden the night before, as he
628
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:06.800
knew what it was going to be like he did
629
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:11.440
not want to go there, but something about his attachment
630
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:15.599
with God was more important to him than the pain,
631
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:21.199
and so he was led by his attachment with God
632
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.039
as opposed to his A four P If that makes sense.
633
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.639
So you're right, some of those things will stay, but
634
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:33.559
they'll stay and be fueled and driven by an entirely
635
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:34.519
different motivation.
636
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:41.119
All right, one more threadpull on this idea. So if
637
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:46.920
it is entirely attachment driven, then let's play. Let's take
638
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:52.679
the same situation that maybe I am using a pleasing
639
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.119
and or performance thing in a work setting, I'm not
640
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:01.159
necessarily trying to form in it attachment. Maybe I am,
641
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:07.599
Maybe I'm not. Move Take what you just said and
642
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:11.280
put it into a situation where attachment just isn't necessarily
643
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:15.159
as important as coming home, walking in the door after
644
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.599
the day, after work, after work, and having the family around.
645
00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:28.559
Right, if I'm at work, let me put it like this.
646
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.760
When I was working in a rehab center, I had
647
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.000
a strong desire desire to please and perform for my
648
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:42.440
boss because I felt like that would make me more valuable,
649
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:48.320
it would make me feel better about me. I continually
650
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:52.519
set myself up for disappointment to be rejected and displease
651
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:56.199
him because I kept trying to do that. It was
652
00:45:56.360 --> 00:46:03.119
only when I realized, no, I'm pleasing to God. I
653
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:07.280
don't have to perform to be okay. My identity got
654
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.239
strong enough and who I am that I was actually
655
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:16.800
able to serve him well, which was plead, which was
656
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:20.800
peaceful to me and peaceful to him. So I may
657
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.599
have done some of the same things, but because the
658
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:28.199
motive was completely different, the results were very different, if
659
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:29.000
that makes sense.
660
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.000
So you can take if we take work and kind
661
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:37.519
of put it through all four of those, I might
662
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:42.719
for me if I'm thinking, what would be a motivation
663
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.559
for me? I am very much motivated by completion. So
664
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:49.760
my reward system is like Yahoo's Snoopy dance when I
665
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.840
complete something. So the completion of a task is that
666
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:59.360
the reward or pleasure for me, versus performing to get
667
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.960
anyone attention. I don't care if you're if I know
668
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:04.360
I did a good job at the end of the day,
669
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:05.199
I really don't care.
670
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:06.239
If you thought I did a good job.
671
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.679
But if I got it, completed that closure, so that
672
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:10.440
could maybe.
673
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:13.280
Pleasure for me. You mentioned you would be more of
674
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:15.039
that performance pleasing.
675
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:17.960
I'm trying to get noticed, but then some might do
676
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.840
it to avoid pain.
677
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.679
So maybe it's not to be seen as valuable.
678
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:27.800
But I don't want feedback or criticism or any form
679
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.199
of negative feedback from this boss. So I'm going to overperform,
680
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:36.480
not to please them, but to not hear negative feedback.
681
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.960
So that could be four different motivators of the same
682
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:41.760
thing I work as my beat.
683
00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:46.440
And all working together at least like spaghetti. You know,
684
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:51.320
it's so tangled, it's almost it's very hard to separate
685
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:52.199
them out.
686
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.679
Okay, you have any other questions or any other threads
687
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.599
you want to pull on as we're starting to close today.
688
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:01.719
No, I'm threaded for.
689
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.400
Do you have any more projects you're working on right now?
690
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:06.679
Ed?
691
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.000
So, we've talked a lot about the Face of Grace
692
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.840
is something and anything else in the works for you?
693
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:15.880
Well? There were two books that followed Becoming a Face
694
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:21.679
of Grace. One was called Beyond Becoming a Sustainable Guide
695
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:27.519
for Community Transformation, which was how do you take the
696
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.920
concepts and becoming a face of Grace and creating small
697
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:37.079
groups and that helped grow grace. The third one was
698
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:42.920
called The Weight of Leadership, How codependency and misplaced Mercy
699
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:50.840
under Mind, Life and ministry. That's addressed strong Codependent book,
700
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:57.519
but especially codependency and leadership. I have so many different
701
00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:03.400
things swirling in the air right now. I'm much more
702
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:06.159
involved in leadership with our church, so I'm doing some
703
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:11.280
preaching on Sunday on a teaching rotation. That's keeping me busy.
704
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:12.039
I've got a.
705
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.079
Training group I'm doing. I've got so much work I'm
706
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.760
doing with Life Model Works. I'm a Life Model Works Ambassador.
707
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:24.360
I'll be offering some courses through there pretty soon. So
708
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.239
I haven't written any more books, but I'm developing stuff constantly,
709
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:35.280
and it's really fun because I'm getting to research things
710
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:36.000
that interest me.
711
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.320
All right, that's what it's all about. So I guess
712
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:42.840
let's leave with an action point. So we talked about
713
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:47.280
there's the letting go of the beep, the addiction, the
714
00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:51.199
whatever is out of balance, and moderation in your life.
715
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.760
Thrive Works and Life Model Works have great material. Thrive
716
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:59.119
Works have the nineteen relational skills. You can start together
717
00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:02.519
as a couple just learning some basic things, joy, smiles,
718
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:07.000
quieting together. All of those things are broken down into
719
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:10.280
wonderful segments to learn Life Model I love build a
720
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:14.360
Brain to understand just the basics of the brain and
721
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.599
the simplest terms. Go to Life Model Works and get
722
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:20.519
the build a Brain model. It is worth the twenty
723
00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:22.960
nine ninety nine, I promise you, so if you just
724
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:25.840
want to get a basic understanding of what we're talking
725
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.000
about today, so if you're needing action steps, but thank
726
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:32.079
you so much for being on the show today with us.
727
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:34.039
As always a pleasure to talk with you.
728
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:37.159
Thanks. It was fun talking with both of you.
729
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:41.880
Okay, so continue to join us this month the month.
730
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.400
This month's theme is.
731
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:48.360
Joy Peace, pseudo piece, pseudo joy addiction. That's kind of
732
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:50.159
what we're going to be talking about, just the guys.
733
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:52.480
We'll have something in that we're hoping to get John
734
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:55.719
Sieedel back on the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic.
735
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:57.239
That's our finger cross plan.
736
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:01.400
And it's the beginning of August, so there might be
737
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.920
space in some of our groups check that out at www.
738
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:08.239
Holmessr dot com. Groups for men, groups for women, but
739
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:10.920
they fill it up really fast last semester, So if
740
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.519
this is August, then they may not be they may
741
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:13.960
of beople.
742
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.199
So as we say in the end.
743
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:21.559
Goodbye, you're wrong, You're wrong.
744
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.280
We say there is a hope for your future.
745
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:30.320
And you're not alone on your journey by everyone.
746
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:32.719
If you want to move your near diverse family from
747
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:37.880
surviving to thriving, check out our family courses at homesasr
748
00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:41.559
dot com. If you are a professional counselor or minister,
749
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:44.239
or just want to know more about the courses to
750
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:48.719
educate and equip you for near diverse marriage ministry or counseling,
751
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:54.480
check out the resources for professionals at Christianneurrodiverse marriage dot com. Couples,
752
00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:57.320
we have courses for you too. Thanks for joining us.
753
00:51:57.599 --> 00:51:59.519
Be sure to leave a thumbs up, a like, or
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00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:01.960
a positive review on the platform you're joining us on.