Spatial Systems, Real Futures

Gene Feldman: All right, good evening everybody. T welcome to tonight's episode of Neon Protocol. This is Gene and I'm also gonna be joined with Mark, Damon, and Dan from the Neon Protocol Committee. If you wanna say hi guys.
Damon: Hi guys.
Mark G: Hi guys.
Dan Meeks: Hi guys.
Gene Feldman: And and tonight we are actually joined with a guest I've actually been really excited to have on. His name's Jeff Crawford. I'm gonna let him introduce himself in a second. But what I think is really cool about his story is we've been talking throughout this podcast and throughout our conversations is we wanna see practical use, how this can be used practically no longer being s set in a special room where a special team gets the tools. Or we're talking about theory. We want to be able to really exemplify what people are doing now and why we don't have to wait till tomorrow to start making some of these moves. And Jeff's story is very, very cool in this regard. So, Jeff, I'm not gonna steal any of your thunder. please, if I would love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners.
Geoff Crawford: No, if you did, you probably your thunder's your thunder's probably a little louder than mine. So thank you first and foremost,
Gene Feldman: No, well please.
Geoff Crawford: thank you so much for I all jokes aside and they're gonna be bunch of jokes in this podcast. But before we get to that, I just wanna tell you how thankful I am, Gene, and to the rest of the team for allowing me to have the opportunity to come and tell my story. I'm really excited about it. And so let's get to it, right? So my name is Jeff Crawford. I'm with I call myself, I guess, founder and CEO of 824 Solutions. I'll get to that name in a second, but I'll walk you through my story. It's gonna, it's not long, but it you gotta just work with me.
Gene Feldman: Please absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: but it really paints the picture about how we got to 824. So it all started when July 6th, no, I'm joking. So I'll get
Gene Feldman: Ha ha ha.
Geoff Crawford: you to Out of college, my first job was with Enterprise Rent A Card. and it was a great company. I was there and I told them from the beginning, I'm only gonna be there for three years, and then I'm gonna go to NYU and get my master's in advertising, and I was gonna live in Harlem and work in Manhattan and make million-dollar advertising campaigns and retire. And that was the plan. And I so I was gonna work at Enterprise, I had a great management training program. and that's what I did. I I did it, I went full-fledged, and in three-year mark came. I'm like, all right, I'm ready to go. I was gonna go to NYU to Stern School. So I already had it planned, and it was gonna be $25,000 a year and blah, blah, blah. And I was ready to go. And when it was time to actually leave enterprise, I was making $60,000 at the time. And My parents combined were making 75,000. I'm a lower middle class kid from Philadelphia, lived in a row home, and I loved every minute of them. So I'm not playing a soccer, but I'm just giving you the practical numbers. And so,
Gene Feldman: No. absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: so I and I'm having a lot of fun. So I go, all right, well, let me just do one more year. And that next year, year four of Enterprise, I'm now making more than my parents are making combined and having more fun, right? So this whole grad school thing, but I'm going to grad school. I made a promise to my parents, you know, and it just kept being one more year, Gene. And then next thing
Gene Feldman: Mm-hmm.
Geoff Crawford: you know, you look up fast forward, it was 25 one more years. Right. And so, you know, that doesn't happen, especially I'm I'm 52 years old in my generation. You don't work for the same company that many times, you know. And so I was kind of what you call a throwback, right? And I got rewarded for that. And the reward was I got, you know, it got me out of my comfort zone of leaving Philadelphia. I thought I would never leave Philadelphia because there's no greater city in the world. And when I got to leave, I got the opportunity in 2013. With Enterprise Rent A Car to run our car sales division in Baltimore. it was a great opportunity. We had a lot of fun and I had a great amount of success. I had a dynamic team. And within 18 months, I got the opportunity to run the third largest operation in Enterprise Rent A Car in our DC market, a big whopping 42-mile relocation, but it was it a it was the best move I made. I took a place that was three stores and making no money, turned it into eight stores, and we get through the pandemic. So I opened up two car dealerships during the pandemic when most dealerships were shutting down or whatever. So you can imagine
Gene Feldman: Absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: March 13th was the first day of the pandemic. I never missed a day of work because we were first responders for what enterprise. So you know When we were there, Enterprise Rent A Car really stepped up in the time, you know, and it's the greatest, one of the greatest companies ever. And I my son now works for them. So just to kind of show you.
Gene Feldman: Nice.
Geoff Crawford: So I'm in it. And let's just say enterprise, one of the core values is they work, you work hard and you reward hard work. And certainly because of my effort and energy, they were absolutely rewarding my hard work. And it got to the point in the middle of COVID, I was on the Good side. I wasn't on like the side that they had to think about laying off. I was on the good side. And so things were going good. And we got to 2022. And the 2021 and 2022 were the best financial years of my life in a time where I'm watching people die every day. And then more importantly, I'm watching people make decisions with their credit. I'm watching a minivan that was $18,000 on March 10th worth. $24,000 on two weeks later, and there wasn't a mile difference on that car. There wasn't anything, you know. So your whole concept of what you're doing, and and I always believed everything I was doing. That, you know, and what the Taylor family taught us in enterprise was take great care of your people, take great care of your customers, and profit and growth follows. And that is why during the pandemic, enterprise holdings shined during that environment because we were fundamentally at the core about our people and our customers. Resonated and that's and it's still doing that to this day. So I paint,
Gene Feldman: Absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: I paint that picture to tell you that I started to have some cognitive dissonance as to what it was that I was doing. And I started to lose perception as to what was real, as far as I need, you know, $10 million of my 401k. Like I was living a life that I never thought I would imagine. And now I'm starting to not appreciate those things. And so fast forward, just to make the story get along. In 2022, I made the decision on my own to walk away from enterprise. And basically my commitment was health over it was four days before Christmas. My wife thinks I was was crazy, right? But
Gene Feldman: Ha ha.
Geoff Crawford: you know, it was health over wealth, right? You know, and I I
Gene Feldman: Absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: I was I was absolutely committed to that. And the representation of that was to walk away from a tremendous opportunity. Now, as Gene, as you and I talk about it as I'm looking at my bank account now, maybe I shouldn't, you know,
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: but all you know.
Mark G: Well perfectly.
Geoff Crawford: So that's that's how I ended up leaving Enterprise. But what I definitely walked away with was 25 great, met my wife through Enterprise. And again, fast forward, my oldest son now is work. So it was all great. The Taylor family is great. I will speak to the mountaintops about Enterprise Holdings best company. And so I
Gene Feldman: Well, you hear
Geoff Crawford: was very grateful for that.
Gene Feldman: Yeah, and you hear such great things about their management training program. I mean,
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Gene Feldman: even even when I was starting my career, people would say, if you can get into their training program, that's just one step up, at least in the geographic region I was at. And so yeah,
Geoff Crawford: Yes. Yes.
Gene Feldman: so you always hear great things. Now, for our audience, we are not being paid by enterprise. We are not sponsored by them. However, enterprise however
Mark G: Maybe a future sponsor.
Gene Feldman: Enterprise, if you are listening, we are definitely open
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Gene Feldman: to it.
Mark G: Please contact EDAMENT Neoprotocol dot com.
Gene Feldman: Absolut.
Damon: one eight hundred
Geoff Crawford: Well
Damon: Gene Feldman.
Dan Meeks: I mean to to be honest, I was
Gene Feldman: Yeah, we will definitely
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Dan Meeks: like president circle at Hertz and
Mark G: Three hundred. G needs money.
Dan Meeks: I dropped all that and switched to Enterprise. So you know, they've been alright. I'll tell
Gene Feldman: So all right.
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Damon: Ha.
Dan Meeks: you the story sometime of why I had to switch from Hertz to Enterprise, but Yeah. It had to do with
Geoff Crawford: I definitely want to hear that story, Dave, for sure. I still get a kick out of it.
Dan Meeks: car theft, let's just say that. Anyway, interesting story
Geoff Crawford: Amen. Amen.
Gene Feldman: Nice. All right. So that that will be on episode
Dan Meeks: I'll tell you later. Yeah.
Gene Feldman: fifty-two. All right. So
Mark G: When the recording goes off.
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Damon: Well the best stuff is after the recording. man.
Gene Feldman: I know.
Geoff Crawford: That's what she said. That's what she said.
Gene Feldman: Absolut. See, that's why we need a subscriber channel. Is so that way people can pay for the extra content. No.
Geoff Crawford: sorry about that.
Damon: Just a little extra. Just a little extra. But
Dan Meeks: Yeah, pay extra and hear Dan Meeks talk like a gunner. All right, sure.
Damon: you
Geoff Crawford: Ha ha
Gene Feldman: All right. So Jeff, so so from Enterprise, what got you into VR? I mean, were you doing XR
Geoff Crawford: Yes. So now
Gene Feldman: at Enterprise at all?
Geoff Crawford: so that was it, right? So I I I left enterprise and you know, health over wealth and I
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: took a year off. I I got to get a chance to go to the Bahamas in India in all of twenty twenty two. And then I came back and the reality is hey Jamie Dynasty wants his mortgage paid, you know, and I got kids, you know, finishing college and about to go to college. So, you know, this was all cool, but I have to, you know, the reality of paying bills. So health over wealth, but so I got a recruiter. and I told him where I was in my life. I want to do something that has meaning, that has impact. And yes, I have bills to pay, but we don't need to be thank you for what I was getting caught. But I'm at a different point in my life. And he put me down with this nonprofit called Vehicles for Change here in Maryland.
Gene Feldman: Okay.
Geoff Crawford: And Vehicles for Change was this dynamic nonprofit who had this outstanding Auto mechanic training program that they started in 2015, in which it was primarily the goal was to train people that were formerly or currently incarcerated. and it was a really good program that the overall program, they got these cars donated from the general public. They would get these cars fixed up. The mechanics would fix the cars as part of the training program. And at the end of it, what we would do is we would give them a car. And it wasn't a handout, it was a hand up. So they would pay us a portion of so they got a car because transportation is the number one barrier to keeping a job. We got them tools, we got their laptop, and more importantly, we guaranteed them a job. And in this real life, it was a 16-week program. And we had over 300 interns, people that were formerly or currently incarcerated, come through the program. And of those, only seven went back to jail. So that recidivism rate was less than 3%. The national recidivism
Gene Feldman: That's incredible.
Geoff Crawford: rate is 68%, right? And so
Damon: Yeah, it really is. Mm-hmm.
Geoff Crawford: there, Marty Schwartz, the CEO, had an unbelievable mission and was able to do that. And then their bo one of their board members said, Hey, well, we need to expedite the process of the number of mechanics we can train because our employer partners are dying for mechanics. And so yes, our 16-week program was great, but is there any way we can expedite that process in order to maximize having more impact, more cars? And so the board said, Hey, we have this virtual reality. Platform that they created and then they opened it up to have a vice president of virtual reality to basically run it, right? They they came up with the idea, but they needed someone to come in and run the business and hire employees and basically run it from scratch. So where I was, you know, I had no VR experience, I barely knew how to use my iPhone, but I was very passionate about. My community and more importantly, with my success in enterprise, again, they teach you how to take great care of your people, great care of your customers. They teach you how to run a business. So I had no fear in starting something new. I did it so many times in enterprise where I came into a new environment. I told you about coming to bottom. So I'm I'm gonna
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: bet on myself, right? So that's kind of what it was. I convinced the board and the CEO, I reported directly to the CEO. And in 2023, I became vice president of virtual reality. And in within three
Gene Feldman: Ha ha ha.
Geoff Crawford: months, I had to do
Damon: Thank
Geoff Crawford: an interview with CNN.
Damon: you.
Geoff Crawford: Right. And that I'm like, I are you kidding me? I like I'm confident, but I also have to understand that this this nonprofit has done something real and I don't want to be the jerk that messes it all up. Right. You know, so it was a lot, you know, but fast forward, we were able to have a very successful interview with CNN, and that just opened up the floodgates. Now what I was responsible for was selling virtual reality solution, and it was just for automotive to five different paying customers. So it was to correctional facilities, high schools with career and technical education, or that couldn't afford a building in the career and technical education. So they wanted it. Third was community colleges who oftentimes would wanted to go to their technical program. Fourth, workforce development, and fifth was nonprofits. Now, just like we had mentioned earlier, gentlemen, notice how none of my customer base were enterprise accounts. You know, it was really about getting with people who were helping out underserved people in both rural and urban communities. So I was tasked with selling our product to these five clients. Now, when that first CNN interview happened, we got a lot of momentum. But you guys know the deal. That's great momentum, but people don't believe that virtual reality is the way you can definitely train skill trades. It's a toy that Mark Zuckerberg makes and my granddaughter makes it. So me and Gene talked about that. I talked about how had to overcome
Gene Feldman: Absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: that objection and I was able to, but they basically said, all right, when you prove it, when someone else is dumb enough to do it, come to me. And I said, All right, now if I prove it, I can come to you. You're gonna pay it like, yes. Fast forward April 2024. We had our second CNN interview. So this is 15 months after the first one. And our first paying customer, of course it was women, was the Maryland Correctional Institute for Women. It's a federal penitentiary here in Maryland. And they were the first ones to buy our product. And we were able to bring it inside a federal correctional facility and have a few cohorts of people. So there's an interview, the second CNN interview happened. Now, when that happened in April of 2024, gentlemen, that's when the floodgates opened. Right. And so now all these people we had here, those five clients who I say, Hey, I'm coming to you when it's time. Now it was time. And that and that's what you started to see over the next course of time from April all the way through February. You just started seeing a lot of momentum of people signing letter of intent and people believing the outcomes that we got. So now it's like, all right, well, this is what God wanted me to do, whatever. Here I am. And in February, we were able to work out a Agreement with the National Sheriff's Association. We worked really hard for that relationship. The National Sheriff's Association has a very zealous goal of lowering recidivism 40% by the year 2030. This was in 2024. I can get behind that. And I believe technology is the only way you can expedite it that fast. Exactly like I told you guys earlier, the business case for why vehicles for change wanted to bring it in in the first place. So I understood that concept. Pretty well, right? And so now it was so when we got the the the second scene interview, we got the National Service Association signed a basically a national agreement with us saying that they had to at the time, I think fifteen or eighteen different sheriff's officers who agreed to this commitment. Fast forward, they're up to 38 now. So that was the so February, I was riding high, I'm like, man, this is gonna be great. And in March 2nd, 2025, out of nowhere, I was laid off. and literally nowhere. And the there was some serious budget things that happened. And I was one of the highest comp in the organization, not to the level I was, but I understood it. And this is, you know, that's the problem with me. That was my problem with being with nonprofits. They they love the advocacy, but oftentimes you are relying on grants, and then once that set macro environment changed, it really You know, and that really set me back, gentlemen. I'll be honest with you. Like because I I walked away from I was almost at the finish line and I
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: chose to walk away. Everybody's telling me, Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. I'm doing for the good of the people. And here I am now, unemployed. That didn't sit well with me. So in March of 2020, March of 2025, I tried with full fledged into trying to find a job and like work for a corpor, go back to corporate America, do that thing, right? And so I pay for another recruiter. And one of the things they told me was reach out to people whose job you want or whose companies you want to work for. You ask them these set of questions. And then at the end of it, over time, you'll build this rapport with people. And if you respond back to them with a recommendation, people will go, Hey, I don't have a job available, but I got my buddy. And basically, you backdoor your way to a job. So they say you have to commit it to this program. You have to make 25 outreaches a day on LinkedIn. You have to have seven appointments. And I I sold used cars. That's nothing to me. So I was able to do that, right? So I talked to so many people, Gene, all day. I would and I'm asking them all these questions and you know, and I'm getting all this information. And what I to fast forward and get to the story, guys, what they what I cover is like, hey, you don't need to get a job doing something else, buddy. You need to do your own thing. And you need to do the, you know, and so after six months, 138 job applications. 36 responses, 34 no's, two interviews set up, which miraculously got canceled the day I was doing them. No job. So almost at the finish line, laid off for something I fell in love with. I love this XR and AI thing. I I I am only doing it for a couple of years, but I got a lot of momentum and I got this passion for it. And now I can't get a job in it. And now all my savings is going. Now my sand, like now I'm like, what is this? What's going on? So I said, if I don't have a job by September. F it. If I don't have a job by September, I'm doing my own thing. And if that means whatever. Now when I said that gentlemen, it was I met half of it, but I was like, all I'm definitely gonna find it. And it did not I did not come close.
Mark G: You you you weren't
Gene Feldman: Like that.
Mark G: you weren't two drinks in when you made that decision?
Geoff Crawford: No. Maybe I should have been. Maybe I should have been. And so
Mark G: So so so you're going with the insanity plea at this point. Insanity plea.
Geoff Crawford: Like I said, hey, I need you guys as character witnesses. Gene, you remember, I need you guys as character witnesses.
Mark G: Ha ha ha.
Geoff Crawford: Just in case this thing doesn't you know, this podcast should help out a little bit though.
Damon: Ha ha
Mark G: man.
Geoff Crawford: So that so that's what
Gene Feldman: It's awesome.
Geoff Crawford: so that's what so what ended up happening was I I listened to what people said and I said, you know what? I use this example all the time. At my wedding, we had a company called the Best of Both Worlds. And what it was was it was a group of people that were like a DJ and they had a group of singers and they can sing up to 18 individual songs. Now we weren't in the 18 individual song package, but we were. We had six individual songs, we had older people there. So We had this woman's voice was amazing. So that when we had this, when we needed a singer for six songs, we had her. And then when someone else went to hear Biggie's Falls, we had a DJ for that. So it was called the best of both worlds. Right. And so what I uncovered was I wasn't designed to work for somebody else, and I wasn't designed to work for corporate America. And so in September 2nd, I created 824 solutions. And what that was was a combination of the two things I loved. Enterprise, which was take great care of your people, take great care of your customers. Profit and growth follows. Now with my newfound passion for XR and AI, because I believe that XR is the interface for AI. So, and I got some skill in this. So I want to do something that combines both. And if I can't find it, F it, I'll just do it myself. So September 2nd, I said, I wanted to start the company that I always wanted to work for and it and wasn't out there. And basically, A24 Solutions, what we do is we solve the problem of the skill jab shortage and the shortage of labor. For the skilled traits. and I don't want to hog it out. I'll hopefully we can get to a point where I can explain how I came up with those five skill trades. and I don't know if this is the time, but I just wanted to kind of put that out there. This is a passion project for me, right? Because we're really solving problems. Now at Vehicles for Change, we did a great job solving the problem of getting folks entry-level to come in to be auto mechanics. And what they what the employers wanted were, hey, we want them to be able to do an oil change. We want to be able to change a tire and we want them to be able to change a set of bricks. Other than that, we'll teach them everything else. Right. And so basically that's what we learned. Now, my five-paying customers, remember the community colleges, the they all say,
Gene Feldman: Mm-hmm.
Geoff Crawford: Hey Jeff, we love automotive and we get it and we see the business case, but we wish there were some other things that you would offer, right? That would and I always took that to heart. And part of my five-year plan that I had made for VFC was to grow more than just. One skill trade. And so I always listen. So during that time I was off, guys, when I was asking these questions, I really did research and I used the US Department of Labor Statistics as the 2024 to 2034 10-year jobs report. And it really showed, and it was clear in that jobs report that skill trades, but there's 1100 skill trades. So I said, Hey, look, my competitors, I think they're They do a lot of things. They're, they're, they're, they're very a lot of things to a lot of people, but they don't specialize. I said, I don't want to be everything to everybody. I'm going to specialize in no more than five skill trades. I'm already in automotive. So I want to be scientific about which ones we pick. So I had a criteria. I said, if there's a thousand skilled trades, let me have a high mark. And if I need to drop that mark, I will. And so what I did was I said, here are the three criteria I have for what we're going to specialize in. Number one, The average median income needed to be between $50,000 and $80,000 nationally. Number two,
Gene Feldman: Okay.
Geoff Crawford: I was looking for something that would show a 25% growth in its entry level position, not in the market, right? Because I need lower, we're working with underserved folks, so they're gonna get that entry level and then create a pathway. So I needed something that had at least a 25% increase in entry level positions. And then third was I wanted to have it a significant growth. over the already 4.5% growth they predicted for all the skilled trades. And so I wanted the I wanted the best of the best. And so what we uncovered was there were seven that we felt good about healthcare and solar. We felt weren't our niche because we we don't feel as though that necessarily is going to help out a rural or urban community or the opportunity youth we deal with. So we landed on the other four. So we had automotive and now we do HVAC, welding, plumbing, And electrical. And that is anything else? There's plenty of people out there. Me and Gene talked about it. There's other solutions. You know, I love what Skillberry's doing in the what they're doing. And I love there's a lot of people doing a lot of different things. And so we don't need to be everything to everybody. And we believe that when we kind of inspire people, so if we just can stay and one of my old enterprise managers told me, be an inch wide and a mile deep. And that's what we're doing now. We we got We understand the five, and now we gotta get a mile deep in each one of those things. So now
Gene Feldman: No, so
Damon: Now wait wait wait wait
Gene Feldman: yeah.
Damon: wait wait wait wait hold on a second. y your story you went from I and now you're saying a lot of we Who's we? Who did the research? Who are you who are you it's not you in a mirror. What who's the who's the who's the eight twenty four team? Who you talk who's we?
Geoff Crawford: So great that you asked that. I now have, we've gone from just me to now I have two act what I call active teammates right now. One of them is David Greenberg. And David Greenberg was my director of curriculum and training with me at Vehicles for Change. And so it was just a natural transition to bring him over with me over. So
Damon: That's cool. Yeah, yeah.
Geoff Crawford: he is he is now my current director of training and curriculum. So he knows my story just like you know. So it's like tango and cash just in a different movie. The second person I bought over was a gentleman named Jayash Chaven. Jayish is out of Pune, India. I met Jayish when I went to India in that one year when I was on my sabbatical, and I met Jayish and I loved him so much. And he did such a good job for us when I was doing that project that Jayish came on board and he was my VP of tech support and operations for us to get started out. And so now He was on this team. And then last, I realized, hey, we did these things at Vehicles for Change, but we never actually went completely through a whole cycle of service with customers. And so we went out and we were able to attract my now direct senior director of client success and impact, Mr. Joshua Shadrick, who has over 20 years of experience in the SaaS business. Now I was able to recruit these folks with a very minimal budget. So you understand these folks are all about the mission. And then my last best friend, and this is a nice segue, is I have really gotten really good with AI, and I have a very good AI agent now that really
Gene Feldman: Okay.
Geoff Crawford: keeps those things structured. You know, so I went from laughing about that to it now being someone like I feel like it's like a
Damon: Part of the Arctic.
Geoff Crawford: dog for like a canine dog, right? And yeah, I have this attachment. And so, and that's the beauty of what we do. We practice what we teach. And so now we got people, and so now we have and so. Basically, I was just at the point where I was at the remember where everybody said, Hey, prove it out, Jeff, and I got you covered. Well, I already know that's gonna. So now I got all you know, I now learned what I learned from vehicles for change in the automotive solution, and then couple that now with the new four-skilled trades and everything I learned in in between. We become a dynamic a source now. And so now what I wanted to do, and this is what I had a conversation with Gene about after I talked with him in September. And figured out these five skilled trades by January of 2026. It was go time now. Now it's like, all right, I know who my ideal customer is, I know where we sit with this. And more importantly, I know this $9 trillion in this administration is about to come out because that was the last piece. And me and Gene talked about that. The most frustrating thing was getting to a place where someone wants your solution finally and you prove the outcome. And then now you got to deal with the hurdles of the logistics and Tech and can it skip, you know, that was immature, that was things I just didn't know. that I'm not gonna make the stake this time. So that's why we're gonna prove this concept out first, with people saying, okay, if we agree to hit these outcomes, and if you know, that you will agree to do, you know, and so now I'm just about proving these outcomes, which fast forward, our first cohort started May 4th, and now they're gonna graduate on August the 21st. It'll be the first class.
Damon: Hey.
Mark G: Congrats. Good job.
Geoff Crawford: And we had
Damon: Congratulations. That's awesome.
Geoff Crawford: two of our learners who knew nothing about HVAC, two of them, one last week, one on Friday, just passed their universal, universal 608 HVAC. These are people who had no idea, and they were strictly going. So now we've proven that out. We're gonna have this, and then that's when the floodgates are gonna open. Now that's
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: where we're at now. So that's my whole story, and I will not talk this much for the rest of the podcast.
Gene Feldman: No, no. But the but the thing is, but the thing is is that Jeff, your story is what's key to this. I think
Mark G: Good.
Gene Feldman: it's probably gonna be to the rest of the conversation. I think the rest of us are gonna have questions about because for me that you didn't focus on enterprise. The four of us have been so buried in enterprise solutions. and try you know, and that's where when you go to like AWE or AES or any of the big conferences, everybody's trying to get into the enterprise because they want the factory. They want the factory because that's the golden goose. But OSHA's stopping it or this or that. But what you're you have just yeah,
Mark G: They want the airplane, yeah.
Gene Feldman: you you're actually doing what enterprises keep dragging their foot to doing, and you're proving out the use cases. You know, I mean, I think I saw somewhere in some of your information that, like for safety. Big thing, you know, OSHA always comes up. But apparently like a forty three percent injury reduction from being able to do this. I mean
Geoff Crawford: And that's these that's at the lowest denominator. I'll be in gracious. With the folks are gracious with that number. It's actually probably higher.
Gene Feldman: Yeah, because some of these jobs you can only make a mistake once. You know, I mean, when you start getting into
Damon: Yeah.
Gene Feldman: welding and you start dealing with like like flammable gases and start getting into a lot of that. And so for me, it's just it's so it's really fascinating that because your success is focing the focusing on something that most people don't even have it on their radar. Everybody's trying to get to that back to that warehouse.
Geoff Crawford: And I'll give you an and I'll give you where I got it. Cop, you know, mockery is the biggest form of flattery. The one, you know, the giant that when I started working in enterprise rent a car, the giant was Hertz Rent A Car. And what they did is they were very big on the retail renter and the and the corporate renter, right? And that and that rental day back then was about a four-day average rental. And let's say back then the average rate was $45 per day, right? That's $180 in a transaction. What Enterprise did when they got into the market, they specialized not in that, they specialized in the insurance replacement market and they specialized in the dealership, the people who needed their cars because their cars were damaged. Right. And so now what that was is that average rental was 14 days. So what enterprise had the wisdom to do is drop the rate and offer an insurance replacement rate, which the insurance company saw a value in because that was an opportunity for them. And so now Yes, the price was half,
Damon: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: you know, so now an insurance replacement rate may be twenty five dollars per day, but if I'm getting fourteen days at twenty five dollars. versus four days at four, you understand the economies of scale. And then you add in now, making sure you wow your customers and wow the cut and the people that are sending those customers. You're creating efficiencies for these insurance companies to want to partner with you. And that's how you keep the longevity and that's how you keep VR as the longevity for it because you have to make sure that you're serving the people who need it most. And in our example, the people who need it most are not the enterprise accounts, it's the underserved people in these five areas, because these are oftentimes the epicenter. For those folks to come to. And so we create a solution that's
Dan Meeks: It is a douche.
Geoff Crawford: plug and play to give to these facilities. It becomes sustainable. It's not just a one and done. Right. And so the the reason why we can do that is because I'm not doing a series A, B, C. I'm not owned by a company on Madison Avenue. And more importantly, I have a passion about the people we serve. just like vehicles for change had a passion about the people they serve, just like enterprise had a pass. You know, so it's all consistent. When you take, when you really care about the end user and you create a solution for their biggest problem, then you're going to profit and growth follows. And now I didn't need I have faith in that, you know, and my bank account doesn't look like it right now. But I we're we're certainly we're certainly
Damon: Ha
Gene Feldman: I think we're all in the same boat on that. It this is a passion project, not a wealthy project.
Geoff Crawford: Yes, yes.
Dan Meeks: No
Mark G: But but
Dan Meeks: no I was I was also good.
Mark G: I gotta say, I gotta say, George just sh gave us like a master class and sort of, you know, it's it's a sustainable sort of product concept for VR,
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Mark G: right? Yeah you know, he's not trying to say, you know, clawed this, clawed that, metaverse this, metaverse that. It's what's important. And j you know, I come from the same world of automotive training. So I love the story, right? Because in the end it's about keeping people safe, right? For UPS it's about fifty years, no crashes, right? So, you know, I think the this story you're giving us is an amazing story, right?
Geoff Crawford: And what what VR does, it gives you computents before computents. And then now it's like it's like the calculator to the math teacher. Every when the calculator came out, the math teacher thought it was good. No, it just it's not. I didn't know why Sister Agnes had me doing long division when really what I wanted to know is once we solve this problem, what are we gonna do with the answer? And I think now that's what's gonna happen. And we gotta be honest, folks, that you gotta go to where the puck is going. You know, in in The first trillion dollar company was August 1st, 2018. That was the first trillion dollar company in our start. That was Apple, Tim Cook, and Apple. Since then, we now have what 11 companies over a trillion? One that's got to five trillion back, and we have a trillionaire. So the number one commodity in the world right now is information. For the first time ever, it's more than oil, right? And then now if you look at kind of the the net the groundwork now, compute. Is absolutely going to be what drives the American economy, right? You get you're seeing you're seeing Claude and Meta, you know, they they call it mangoes, right? You got Meta, Apple, Google, you got Nvidia, open, open AI, and SpaceX. And and you know, and now you see these folks go into China. Like, I don't do politics, gentlemen. I these are folks going to China that speak to people. Yes,
Gene Feldman: No, we we we only tell it as it is, no politics here.
Geoff Crawford: yes, but compute is it, right? And when you're seeing Google spend $300 million to train their own people. That is how bad this is, right? These data centers can't, and I know it's a sore subject, but the best good is going to happen. There's going to be data center solutions that are going to come to be good solutions, right? It's bad now, but we have an ability. There's going to be so much good that's going to come from it. And that good's also going to be able to be equated to ROI. That's why I'm excited that more people like me are coming into this field because we're bringing that PL. And that and that, hey, I gotta communicate your language and we're not going to deviate from getting these outcomes. And I think that we keep surrounding our, you know, it's like you can't beat Thanos by yourself, right? You gotta have a bunch of people that, you know, and that's what I'm doing now. I feel like I'm Chuck Daly and I'm going out there now and I got my own team, but I'm also getting people who've done this for a while. I'm I'm being humble to them, but like, hey, look, we gotta go get Thanos, right? And he's got five rings on, right? We gotta make sure,
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: you know, so it's like But but we we we and so my company's named after Kobe Bryant. Then he wore the number eight and he wore the number twenty four. I'm from Philadelphia, and he has this thing called a Mamba mentality. And what it was, it was five principles of the Mama mentality, which are also now my five core values, which is you are to be fearless, obsessive, passionate, relentless, and resilient about every single blanking thing that you do. That's how he was. He was a social derelict. Right. No disrespect to anybody. I Kobe is but like he he said in order to be great, you have to fall in love with the process of becoming great. Right. And that's and so whoever we partner with, whoever if if one of our clients are coming through, if it's so you've gotta wanna fall in love with the process of being great. And then then that's how the outcomes then happen. But so that's what the mentality is. I don't wanna do things like it used to be. I don't wanna do the traditional training. I don't wanna do, I'm not interested in private the the enterprise accounts they you know so
Dan Meeks: Yes.
Geoff Crawford: I want to do something different and that's how this will become sustainable is that if because our goals in 10 years is to impact one million people. And impact for us is if one learner goes through our program, they have a significant other and and a person they're responsible for. So that would be three people total. So in 10 years we want it so that's three hundred and thirty three thousand three hundred and thirty three three three three three three three three
Dan Meeks: Okay, I wanna make certain I heard your your story correctly because on on the first iteration you're heavily dependent on grants and discretionary budget spending in order to make this happen. One one of my I got a lot of bugbears if you get to know me. One thing I hate is innovation
Gene Feldman: Ha ha ha.
Dan Meeks: theater. I hate it when some politician, in my case a general, comes touting out because he's got some big plan and he's gonna use the headset that I love to to pitch this plan. That's gonna be way more expensive than it than it should be. But he's gonna razzle dazzle him with this this awesome device. Man, I hate that. It's like, no, I want this to be boring. Like, fix the damn air conditioner with, you know, like
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, success success is boring. Success is boring.
Dan Meeks: like what you're doing. So what what my question though is, how do you make this to where the companies that are hiring these guys start paying for this and you're not having to depend
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Dan Meeks: on, you know, a a campaign
Geoff Crawford: Great question.
Dan Meeks: promise that
Geoff Crawford: That's a great question.
Dan Meeks: You know, the legislature might axe, you know, right before you're trying to to to make happen, you know, because it I remember the days when nurses actually got hired by hospitals, you know, and they trained at the hospital. They didn't have to go get a degree to become a nurse. They just, you know, showed up at the hospital, they trained them, they paid for you know, because they had an incentive to do that. Do you have such a thing with with your business and how you're proceeding with this? Where you're not dependent on grants and budgets.
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, I think that what Well, I'm unemployed because of that, right? So I'm gonna always have a motivation and never, you know, I'm you know, no disrespect to my other organization. I absolutely appreciate everything they did, right? It was just the economies of scale, what happened. And so I don't ever want to be in that position again. So we're looking to boot trap this thing. We believe because of what we did before, we believe we can create the revenue necessary for it. and then, but also we believe, anyway, what we're what we believe is that by focusing on getting people employed and making sure. They have a job six months later, that is gonna create a bridge for us that's gonna create a flow that requires them to be in it. And so therefore, we believe that I don't want our customers to ever pay, but there's grant opportunities that are out there. And that's one of the things that I learned. So now that I know that's the reason, what we're gonna do is when we set up these pilots, I'm never gonna go full-fledged with the customer right away. We're always gonna do just five learners. And what I want to do is prove whatever outcomes they want. And then after that, we will then decide to scale it. Now, what we will uncover in that time period is who are the other decision makers, what are the other pieces, but show it with the five first, no more than 10. And then we can do that. So to your answer, Dan, that kind of gives us an opportunity to really step scale this the correct way. And then what we tell our employers and what they value the most is that, okay, yeah, I'm taking a chance on somebody who but they're hiring people with no experience anyway. If someone's got a a fun way of learning, it's oftentimes gonna bring in a younger person. And then they have somebody saying, I'm gonna commit that they have a job six months later. I think that'll mitigate the risk of the employer. And then we have a burden to make sure that this person Does well in the interview for that. And I think that's the last part of what we're doing now. So all our guys passed their certification the last two weeks. It's just interview prep, essential skill development, and really just hammering them on that. And so us staying with them for six months afterwards has really, we believe, lessened the blow. But we also need people, once people actually do it. And are good employees, I think that's gonna create the it's gonna become an exponential increase. And my goal would then be for them not to come to me, but to go to the DC Dream Center, the nonprofit who let me come in here. And now you pay them a referral fee for coming. So now they know every 12 weeks, 20 HVAC people are coming out of DC, right? And then the next cohort might be like they might say, Hey, can your next cohort be plumbing? Because I need plumbers by, and then you can create that court. So you kind of do like a And the goal is to keep that learner in our curriculum. So after they do a 12-week program and do HVAC, great. The next time you have another 12 weeks, come back and do plumbing. The next time you have another 12 weeks, come back and do, but you will always be a part of the A twenty-four community. And that is so that's how we keep and then they come back and you know it just becomes this self-fulfilling thing.
Gene Feldman: Nice. Yeah.
Mark G: Amazing, amazing. Again,
Damon: Amazing. Yeah.
Mark G: what I love is the fact that like in enterprise it's all it's the opposite, right? It's about, before you even do it,
Dan Meeks: It's the right call.
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Damon: Direct opposite.
Mark G: you gotta have ROI, you gotta have scale. And I just still, again, I'm gonna say what the way you're speaking is a master class because it's all about impact and it's so important with what we do. And again, just this is This is an awesome share. For those that are listening, again, impact is the target, not the profit.
Gene Feldman: Absolutely. As well as I got a handy the roadmap. You have a very clear vision that allows for flexibility. Absolutely.
Geoff Crawford: It has to be because it's it's gotta be a broken product. You can't have that's how it gets expensive, right? If I get a finished product and they go, well, you know, one of my teammates, Joshua, taught me the difference between customization and personalization. Customization is expensive and that's what happens. People you whereas really you want to person well you can personalize something that's a minimal viable product. And sell it, not sell it, but make sure the customer knows that your job is to help us build this so it's yours, right? And so it's always going to be a minimal viable product that's always going to need to be built. And that's how you keep the economies of scales down on it. You know, I'm not gonna have brick and mortar and I don't have a bunch of employees. So, you know, quite frankly, it'll only be my greed and my teammates' greed, but that's not what we're here for. So, really, the only time this becomes
Dan Meeks: Yeah, I the only time.
Geoff Crawford: expensive is just wasting our time on the software. But to your point, Mark, and I want to be clear with this. Yes, I love the mission, but to all my PL people, you want to talk to me about gross margins and beta and everything like that? We can talk about that too. I can tell
Gene Feldman: Ha ha.
Geoff Crawford: you that this is something that is a hundred S, thousand X, and that's why everybody's getting into this business. You know, virtual reality hasn't going anywhere. We just got the person that made it the fun thing out of there. And but let
Dan Meeks: Okay.
Geoff Crawford: me be clear to any VCs and anything out there, I I can talk that language too and show you that as well. so I don't I want to make sure I'm clear about that. But our impact is the way we do that. Like if if we stay focused on that, then it's gonna be a volume deal, not a a per, you know.
Gene Feldman: Yeah, we we
Damon: Yeah, yeah.
Gene Feldman: we may have to have you back because our resident VC is on his motorcycle right now
Dan Meeks: Okay.
Gene Feldman: somewhere in Canada. So so
Dan Meeks: Yeah. All right. I I do have some hard questions for you though. Two of well yeah,
Geoff Crawford: please do. I don't want the I don't want any lob bulls.
Dan Meeks: I I I don't do softballs, man. If if yeah.
Damon: We know Dan. We know.
Dan Meeks: Well, I don't know, I just I give a damn about this kind of stuff and I wanna make sure we're we're all doing it right collectively. All right.
Geoff Crawford: I agree. Let's go.
Damon: That's why you're here. Go for it.
Gene Feldman: Absolutely.
Dan Meeks: hardware ecosystems is one. And two is physical footprint. Now if you ever talk to Bob Cooney who's who's kind of a guy that does location based entertainment, he's always talking about the the the floor space that you gotta rent in air conditioning power just so you don't run into a wall is ridiculously expensive. and and I'm assuming if from a few things that you said that you don't really have a a a physical input and you're also doing it with a small coho cohort when you start out. But as you scale things up, like for instance, if you're if you're fixing a semi tractor trailer, you need to be able to walk around fifty feet, you know, otherwise you're doing teleport, teleport, teleport, which is okay. but you need to go for a long walk and that means an actual space that you can do it. that's the physical part, but also the ecosystem. Things are narrowing down, you know. well, we could have a long talk about my thoughts on Android XR and where that's going. But if you're locked into Pico or Meta, you know, or if you're really lucky and locked into Vario, I'd love to see you do that someday with with Plummen. That would be amazing. Yeah, I I can see the welds perfectly on this XR4. yeah. Love to see that. Wait wait, what I'm saying is you you just you're you you have to kind of buy into I I know people say, we're hardware agnostic. Yeah, horseshit. You ain't hardware agnostic. You're buying into meta systems or Picosystems or HTC. How do you handle that? Especially when I have no idea where things are gonna go in the next year and a half and and I hoover this data every single morning trying to figure out what's gonna happen with Exo.
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, no. I think I so I have a few answers to that. that that it it really it's I've learned in my stoic life that it's all about how you respond, right? So let's assume meta never makes a headset. Let's assume Pico like so yeah, you're right. it's Pico, it's meta, you know, and let me tell you why it's meta for me. It's meta for me because it's been the best for the skill set that now. What I mean by the best is I am a firm believer, I think six dollars is the biggest. Crap as shit ever. I think that is it's like 98 premium gas. You don't need 98 premium. So I don't need a six-d off environment. I but threaded off is essential, right? And so I think in a threed off environment, there the hardware really doesn't, isn't gonna matter, right? Number two, I think the hardware is just a component. It's just a book. Your teacher is the one that teaches you. Right. What I bring is like I my content comes to life. Right. You can have a mouse in a mouse outfit, but if they're not in Orlando and then it's a big thing, your kid's not gonna see it as Mickey Mouse. So what we bring is that experience, right? Because we care about you, individual learner, right? This is just a tool. So we don't really even sell. The hardware, right? Like when I talk to these folks, they're that enterprise folks care about it, right? And they want to get that the best this, the best that. And more importantly, they have the budgets for it. I'm dealing with people that have no budgets. So they're not, these are folks that are not going to complain about the no-frills cornflakes. You know, they're not going to complain about that. What they're glad is they have cornflakes. So my customer base requires me to not have to overcome that objection. And when I say I'm hardware agnostic, I say I pick the one that's going to put you in the best financial position right now. The other factor that I'm I'm working on now is like, okay, we believe that Meta's price is going to continue to go up. And we believe at some point HTC and them will be about the same. So we are also pricing in in our three and five year model that the price of headsets will go up. Now I'm hoping it'll be like flat screen TVs and it and it comes down, right? And I do believe that I think there's just going to be now with the my last bold prediction is that I think that, and I'm interested, I didn't like the the meta pro, but wearables are gonna overtake the phone. And so I'm curious to see other than the headset. And I don't know what it is today. I love the fully immersiveness of VR, but I also understand that XR and AR, you know, those things are. And so I gotta figure that these glasses and the there could be something that goes there. But for me, my customer base is never gonna require it I'll throw up to them and say, all right, well, if you want that headset, you're gonna have to pay for it. And then that's gonna disqualify them right away. So that's not gonna hurt because I don't require it being so real to life as maybe some of these other folks require. and so that's what I now, if I'm
Dan Meeks: So that yeah
Geoff Crawford: wrong, so be it. but if all you ate was raisin bran you're still getting calories, you're still getting you know, and that's that's
Gene Feldman: Yeah. Now
Geoff Crawford: you know
Mark G: So so so on the same note, right? Let's broaden it little bit. Maybe if you could, what were the challenges or what yeah,
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Mark G: I'm not gonna be nice about it. What were the challenges of getting these types of platforms into your customer?
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, I think
Mark G: I'm sure there's some sort of road of learning that you had to go through to get it acceptable, right?
Geoff Crawford: Yes. So I think what I building a relationship with these folks because you're connected to the learner gives you a certain level of trust. And and and I don't want to use that word because I don't want it to sound like kumbaya, but I'm giving people a reason to not, I'm lining my personal interest behind theirs. Right. And so I tell them if a kid from Philly who grew up in a row home, who worked 25 years in enterprise rental car, who barely knew how to use an iPhone, could go, I learned how to, and I was in the car business, had eight dealerships, didn't never know how to do an oil change, and I learned how to do one because I had to teach it to people in the headset. So once I knew I could be good in the headset and that people from CNN want to talk to me, that's proof positive that anybody can do this. And I mean that lovingly. Like there is no part of my resume. says, screams that. You know, that is the beauty of our technology, is that if you do care, right? And you do like, and I and you you can have a little bit of sense about you. You can figure if you're solving. So I get the trust of my people to know that, hey, I'm, we're gonna learn together. And then number two, I'm gonna break some stuff. It's gonna, something's gonna go wrong. But what you know is that you got my cell phone. You can always come to me. I'm going to do something about it. And so those two things, you know, now where I where I believe I shine at is that I am confident in our ability to drive outcomes. And I think when you can do that, and that only becomes of, you know, confidence comes from preparation. It doesn't come from arrogance, right? And we're prepared for the moment because I had a million conversations with guys like you. And so now I'm just not being fearful
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: about coming out here and saying it, right? And more importantly, I maybe, you know, my rookiness is maybe my my advantage, you know, but somebody's got to do it. And so that's so that to answer your question, Dan, that's where I believe, or excuse me, Mark, I believe that is if you stay clearly focused on the end user and you speak their language, and I don't care about the only credit I care about is my credit score. So if people want the credit, go ahead, right? So that's a an another reason.
Mark G: I call it giving the gold star away, yep. Yep.
Gene Feldman: Hmm.
Geoff Crawford: Does that answer your question?
Mark G: Excellent, thank you.
Gene Feldman: Yeah. Now
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Gene Feldman: since we've talked about a lot about XR, but I think one of the questions people are gonna have is 'cause we're also talking about these hard skills. So within your training, do you have like is it like fifty fifty? So fifty percent is XR, fifty percent is actual on an HVAC unit. Do you have any of those like deviations?
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, so I don't do how we do it is kind of like okay, anything that is gonna require a learner to be able to like get that hands-on training, that
Dan Meeks: It's
Geoff Crawford: is what a hundred percent VR.
Gene Feldman: Okay.
Geoff Crawford: There are components of it where the person's gonna have to learn the certification game. We can do that. In VR, but you don't want to have questions in VR and they're just hitting the button, right? So that might be an avenue for it to be a laptop or something like that. And then lastly, as we do essential skills, that's out of any device, and it's a one-on-one contact and communication with either the live facilitator that's there,
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Gene Feldman: Mm-hmm.
Geoff Crawford: and now in the future, we'll have our Mamba agent, our AI agent in there that follows a Socratic method for these learners to be able so the learners by themselves in the headset, they can say, Hey, I have a question about the airflow for this HVAC unit and but and it will require them to have a level of understanding that we can now document. And and so that
Gene Feldman: That's awesome.
Geoff Crawford: kind of puts us in that position.
Gene Feldman: especially setting up the AI engine and Socratic method. For those that aren't
Geoff Crawford: Absolutely.
Gene Feldman: aren't in in training and development or education that don't understand the Socratic method, it it goes back to Socrates. You can Google it at a much later time, but it is a core training philosophy. And a lot of people create these AI engines and just throw them out there. You're actually creating it with an intent behind it. And a, I guess I want to say, I don't want to say A level of reasoning, but you're already setting up on how it's going to approach the situation.
Geoff Crawford: You ready for this one? Well, wait, but wait, there's more. So, yeah, sir, sir, sir,
Gene Feldman: please. Well wait. Is it a set of steak knives? Please be a set of steak knives.
Damon: Ha ha ha.
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: sir, sir. So, you know, we're gonna have these skeptics, right? So now we're gonna get these outcomes, and then people are gonna be like, and and Mark kind of alluded to it, Dan kind of alluded to it. All right, can you really learn how to change an oil in a can you all jokes aside? And what I say is look, you're gonna need to do hands-on. But when I went to college, I learned how to do an audit, and if I went to go work for Deloitte. I would not do an audit my first week there, but I know the components of an audit, right? So what we tell people is hands-on is got to go correspond to this, right? it's not in lieu of it has to. And so we're so what we're looking to do. man, I lost my train of thought. I had a good thought. It's gonna come back to me.
Gene Feldman: Yeah, it will. I usually
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Gene Feldman: it's b I've done it like three ti I will have done it three times by now, so I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Mark G: It was all focused around
Dan Meeks: Right.
Mark G: hands-on, right? And the purpose of hands-on, the value
Geoff Crawford: Got it.
Mark G: of VR.
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, so now what we're gonna do is we have Dr. Leia Miller, who is an absolute unbelievable talent in a lot of different things. But what she's gonna do, what she's doing with us, a lot of things, but the primary thing she's gonna do with us is our hypothesis is that virtual reality and our AI solution and our content will create a level three Kilpatrick model behavior change. What that is, is it'll be a level three behavior change. And we are going to prove the neuroscience behind it. And so what she wants to do is a survey where we have we're gonna have we think 32 of our learners who go through the headset, and then we're gonna have 32 other learners that went through traditional training. Our hypothesis is that our the the the VR and AI solution. Will get the same outcome as the traditional training. And this is 80% less cost effective and 100% safer. But we fundamentally believe that you'll get a two, two and a half X more outcomes. And if that's the case, that is a difference that makes it a no-brainer that it had happened. And so what we're gonna do is demonstrate a level three behavior change. And then after the level three behavior change, Number four is actually getting the result. That's why we say it's one thing, yes, the VR can prove that they know the HVAC unit, but I need their person that hires them to amplify it. And then when they have that job six months later, level four of the Killpatrick model is a result, which most people don't get to. But you can we can talk about the level three behavior change, but no, I want to make sure and us being able to do that and make sure they have a job six months later, we believe, proves the whole model. And so that's adding another nuance that I think at that point it's gonna very hard. And so for our whole industry,
Dan Meeks: So that's actually
Geoff Crawford: that's helpful.
Dan Meeks: that mirrors something that was done in the Air Force called pilot training next or pilot training transformation, where they they took traditional, well, it's a known value what the traditional pilot training was, but to try this new way of syllabus, to to have VR available to the pilot students at any time to go in, there were there were some really good like findings from that. The technology did help, but they realized that there needed to be this entire support structure to make certain that the VR headsets were up and ready and running and all that good stuff. You know, prob probably things you're you're not worried about. But it it was a very interesting study. And I I think it's gonna be something that's gonna be used for stepping stones for later transformations.
Geoff Crawford: Well, Dave, it's funny you said that because my first experience when I got the vehicles for change, the company we're using was called HTX Labs. They were out of Houston, Texas. It was Scott.
Dan Meeks: Yeah. I remember Alan.
Damon: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: Scott and Chris. Well, that is who we
Dan Meeks: Yeah. Scott Yeah, Scott Schneider. I don't. Yeah, I you should yeah.
Geoff Crawford: Scott, well, Scott and they're the one we use their software when we did the vehicles for change thing. And so we know exactly
Dan Meeks: Small world.
Geoff Crawford: what we used it, so they used it for their entry-level mechanics for so we're like, if the Air Force is using this and they're training mechanics on that, then obviously us. So that's how it started. We we started with HTX Labs. And when I when I tell you I didn't know anything now, Scott. Lovingly, I mean Scott's this big time CEO, and here's this kid who knows nothing about right. So to their credit, and I I I'm I'm not supposed to do promotions or whatever, but if it was not for Scott, Chris, Dre, and those guys at HTX who really walked me through the and they did it for nothing, right? They knew because they were so proud of supporting our mission. And they I know they took a short on us, and certainly their sanity with me, but those guys, it's a So to your point, we we were like, yo, that if the Air Force is using it, why not me? So HTX Labs, you're exactly right. We saw that. So you're 100% and it I want to give
Dan Meeks: And I bet th this helps out with with your pitch. That so whenever I had to do a walk around inspection of an aircraft, they needed to take an airplane off the line. And it was like a perfectly good aircraft and it's not flying, which means taxpayers are losing money. And it's just so some dumb second lieutenant can walk around in a circle. But but you know, so
Geoff Crawford: One thousand percent. One thousand percent.
Dan Meeks: as you're selling your services, you're like, hey, you don't need to buy the big old, you know, broken air conditioner and have the guys do it, you know, we could do this all virtually and you're you're paying a absolute fraction of what you paid before.
Geoff Crawford: Right. But the but the the
Mark G: There's no work stoppage.
Geoff Crawford: the immersiveness of the technology though, like let me tell you, I go to Universal every year for the past 20 years. I get Spider-Man's my favorite ride. I can tell you that ride verbatim. And every time at the end, when you're up there at the top and your things are I almost crap myself every time. And I know it's gonna happen. I'm looking at the people next to me in the box, and I still feel like, my god, I'm gonna crash. It's not possible. So you're you're getting that. You know, that's the hard part to duplicate in the other like MR XR AR in BR, you can and one of our people that this is what the one girl said to me when we were in a correctional facility. She said, Jeff, you have understand when you're in this headset, it's the only time I'm in prison where I don't feel like I'm in prison. I don't see bars. Every time else I've always seen bars. But when I put my headset on, I never see but I don't ever feel like I'm in jail. So people want to be in this program, maybe not to be a mechanic, but what they do is they wanna and that's how the one girl, she's like, I didn't want to be a mechanic. I just wanted to to be in this headset so I can have and then when I did it, I said, well I might as well Learn something and she ends up finishing second in her class. So that was an unintended consequence. Like now, of course, we're not offering this just to people in correctional facilities, but what it does prove is that it gives you a way to separate yourself from the hustle and bustle, especially in this environment. That headset gives you an opportunity to just relax and just chill and be very myopic and being able to learn, right? And then it's just forcing you. I have an AI agent that's forcing you to finish off by asking a question and show your level. So it's not, it's a blue book test, it's not multiple choice. So we're not gonna ask who was in the Civil War. We're gonna say, hey, walk me through how General such and such was thinking in that time, and what would you have done if you were a like that's gonna make you have to show a level of acumen, and that can all be documented in and be fact-based. So that is that is the the immersiveness of the technology is. A lot more than just the X's and O's of learning the task. But that is the primary place where we get the behavior change. And then of course, certifications and stuff do matter. You have to get some practical knowledge. But the the the the place I now have to go to, Dan, is employee. Like when I go to my 12-week program, I'm trying to have a field trip every Friday. So the field trip would be: hey, every Friday, you guys gotta go out with to a real place with a real person. And then ideally I want it to be. the employee partners that I have that are gonna hire these folks. So now, you know, Dakin comes there on one Friday and takes my five learners and goes and shows them the practical thing that they just did all week. Right. And then you kind of create that, you know, so you have like a field trip. That's that's a live field trip. So they get that practical. And then when they get the hands on, they'll get it when they start. And most people are if they're gonna hire somebody with no experience, at least this person has a certification. you know has EPA 608, has Nate, has not, you know, has all the certifications and
Dan Meeks: Well th that that that hands on is absolutely crucial because I think a a very important thing to learning is just a little bit of risk. And if you're in
Geoff Crawford: One thousand percent.
Dan Meeks: VR, there's zero risk other than stepping on your cat. So which I think is a very very large risk personally for me. But
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Dan Meeks: yet I do it. but you you get what I mean. Like in order to really cement
Geoff Crawford: Yes.
Dan Meeks: it, you know, you ain't gonna learn your lines for the play until you're actually on the stage.
Damon: Yeah, you get that final neural link. It hardens the neural link.
Dan Meeks: Yeah, yeah. It's that last bit of fusion.
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: Well, that's where you and that's where that's where you go, I did it. I you know, and so that's why I say to people like, hey, I'm not anti you. I need I'm just making it easy. And when they come to you, aren't you tired of saying, hey, pass the drill and they pass you their cell phone? Like that's just gonna frustrate you more. You know what I mean? So it's like, I'm not you still have to do your job, but like they at least they know what they're like kind of doing. And more importantly, you need youth in the, you know. You y y you need youth. Now, I don't know this this whole Gen Z doesn't that's bullshit. I I can tell ya bull sorry, bull crap. I don't I
Gene Feldman: No, please. You're fine.
Damon: We have an E rating.
Geoff Crawford: but I will Okay, okay, okay, okay. But I will Whoa MF F F F sorry.
Damon: You'll just be talking Dan's language.
Mark G: That's a lot of beeps. That's a lot of beeps, Gene.
Geoff Crawford: I feel like me and Dan I feel like me and Dan could have our own podcast.
Gene Feldman: Absolutely. Well, and that's the thing is that
Geoff Crawford: You'll beat up.
Gene Feldman: we we always tell everybody that's on if you ever want to come back or if you want to join. So Dan was actually a guest who ended up joining because he likes the conversations. So yeah, it's
Geoff Crawford: I love it. We could be the the the
Damon: Huh.
Geoff Crawford: b the ball the ball something something to do with ball heads and beard. Ball heads and beards. Some shit like that.
Gene Feldman: Yeah, I can't relate yet. well for half of it.
Geoff Crawford: Sir. Sir. But yeah, that's so that's so but that's really it.
Gene Feldman: No.
Geoff Crawford: And so now now I'm looking to find like friends like you and just keep having these conversations. You know, and and that's like I'm not being funny, I'm being scientific. One thing I
Gene Feldman: No.
Geoff Crawford: like about the marijuana community is that it's very collective. Like it's a very, you go into a dispensary, like it's a very collective group of people. And I feel that way about the skill trades. I feel like it's a collective group of people that really care about their deal. Right. And so it's not a matter of if it's when. And so it's just, let's just get these things. And that's what Gene and I kind of talked about. But you have to have this faith, right? If it wasn't for thy passion for wanting to help these folks out, I would have been out of this a long time ago, right? If I if I succumbed to the peer pressure, which I may in six months have to, right? Yeah, I might come back in six months and say, well, it didn't work out. You know, I don't think that's the case.
Mark G: It's funny, yeah.
Damon: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: I don't think that's the case. You know, I hope your Canadian VC comes in and saves the day for me, but you know, he's in Canada right now. So we'll hey.
Gene Feldman: yeah, I yeah, I know he is gonna be listening. He he he was upset he wasn't able to join.
Geoff Crawford: No, that's okay.
Gene Feldman: But no, I mean, but that's the thing that's I think is I think that everybody's gonna walk away with about the story is that you're you're actually achieving it though. You're actually out there doing you're getting the numbers and you're getting you're proving all a lot of theories right or wrong, but you're getting the results. I mean, like for me, as we were talking about Kirkpatrick and all this. I sit here and keep thinking how far up on Bloom's taxonomy you're going for objective setting and for
Geoff Crawford: Absolutely.
Gene Feldman: that most of the time with standard training, we could only go for the very low levels of Blooms, the rote memorization. With this, you're now proving out analysis, synthesis. You're proving out those much deeper levels that have a greater connection, which I think is awesome. And I could tell you for a lot of us that have been in it for a long haul, it's a v it's it's inspiring to see these ideas being played out. You know, because we've been waiting for the enterprises to bite and they bite for a little bit, and then as soon as there's
Geoff Crawford: Right.
Gene Feldman: a new leader in charge who doesn't see see it, everything's cut.
Geoff Crawford: Yeah. And I will I will say, quite frankly, if it wasn't for, you know, Marty Schwartz, who was the Marty Schwartz was the CEO who bought me on board and took a chance on me. And if it wasn't for his crazy idea and more importantly, his dynamic nonprofit, I wouldn't be here today. And even though it didn't work out the way I necessarily wanted it to, I want to make sure that I give him his absolute praise. It was his idea, and you know, I just added my level to it, you know. with it and that's just the amalgamation that that amalgamation is what I'm trying to create. And I want to be very clear with you is his vision, Vehicles for Change had the ability to back up his vision, but Marty Schwartz was the one and Jeff Bunn was the board member who bought it to there. These were the two that had the vision for it. And I will always make sure that they get the praise for that because the passion is in doing it
Damon: Hold on.
Geoff Crawford: for the organization.
Mark G: right, the one thing I love about your story is is is that you you had a lot of people there to support you, right? But also
Geoff Crawford: Abs one hundred percent.
Mark G: the saying I always have is, right, the most passionate person to me, right? It wouldn't have happened if you weren't such a great XR doer, right? If you didn't do it.
Geoff Crawford: Thank you.
Mark G: Right. So with that, you know, that's where for me hearing the story specifically on this, you know, podcast, it's it's just it's cool because there's not a lot of people, to your point, right? or to the points of Steve Jobs when when they did the crazy campaign, right? The geniuses, right? The the genius in the insanity of passion, right, is really what got you where you get. And for a lot of us, and probably those listening. to this podcast, right? It's that crazy that keeps us going. So, you know, again, a good story, you know, and we'll have discussions outside of here because what
Geoff Crawford: I hope so.
Mark G: you guys are doing is really some good stuff. And you know
Gene Feldman: No
Geoff Crawford: And the more we do, the more I need your help. Like that's the it's like it's like Magneto from the X-Men. Like he got hit and got bigger, right? You know, it's like as we grow, I need more people to help out. And it it'll be a lot easier, you know, once we're, you know. In a position where it's beneficial, quote unquote, to everybody. But for right now, we're the we're the early adopters. We're, you know, I just remember everybody saying now Uber was never gonna be at the airport. Sorry, you know, we're we're well, we're at a different era. I'm not trying to do it's no, I think what people, I think what people are really gonna have to start thinking about is not how bad everything is. I think we're gonna have to start thinking about what life with all this abundance is about to become, right? That's where I think people are gonna have the ultimate chaos. It's like you're so used to thinking you have to work 70 some hours a week. Now you don't have to work for a company anymore. There's gonna be no companies to work for. Right. And one
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: of the points you guys made earlier is colleges is where employers got employees. And now that relationship is being damaged because employers don't necessarily have to go to four-year colleges anymore. Well, I always ask the people in the skilled trades: I said, where do employers of skill trades get employees of skill trades? And I still haven't got. an answer like they they start saying unions and then i'm like okay well then walk me through what that looks like hey okay i've never seen any so there is a disconnect in that right and so what what the our technology does is it we meet people where they are right and that's the beauty of our technology it we can meet people where they are if they if they have they don't have the building or they don't have the capital or if they don't have internet or if they don't whatever the restriction is our technology can meet them where they are Number two, the second thing is to make sure they get a certification that matters. And that certification, we know it because we talked to the employers who said, these are the certifications that matter, right? I didn't say it. That's what the employer that's gonna hire them said. Third, get them a job, right? But not just one job, give them options so they can choose a job that turns into a career. And then fourth and last is to make sure they have that job six months later. When you offer that solution, then the technology is not really it. The technology is just the mechanism, you know, whereas I think everybody they sell the toy rather than selling the experience of what the toy is going to do to you and with you, right? And so I think, you know, then that's what makes the technology stand out when it's not the bell at the ball. It just becomes the mechanism of getting people to, you know, again, success is boring, right? And so to Dan's point earlier. If all I have is MetaQuest threes or fours or whatever that comes out, it's okay because I'm not I don't have a huge burden that I have. I'm not training neuroscientists, right? I'm training somebody how to do basics in skill traits, right? And so it doesn't require maybe some of those depths. But this is gonna, this is once it becomes once we show a good profit model, that's what's gonna help out our business. Right, is is it is it when it's not just a feel-good and then people go, and that's what's gonna happen when that forty three year old mom goes, Hey, I'm not sending my daughter to college, I'm gonna send her to trade school. We're about ten years away from that. And so
Gene Feldman: No, but still go ahead.
Geoff Crawford: no, no, I gonna say I just hope that we, you know, I'm not a fan of legislating this because I think we're gonna have this pendulum swing every eight years. So I I'm not I'm not from the legislating school of it. I'm for creating your own system school, right? And that's it. If I get plug-and-play solutions and put them in nonprofits and community centers and and workforce development in the neighborhood that these folks are at. And then find employers in that same area. Well, transportation can't be a barrier to employment if your job is within walking distance. Now I don't want to hear about you not having a car. I don't care if you can't get car insurance. I don't care if you don't have a driver's license. Okay, those will be systemic things I can't change. But what I can do is bring the job right in front of your house. What I can do is bring my training in your house. What I can do is those things. And now it's up to you to be able to, and so you meet them where they are, then that's how people wanna do what they want to do.
Gene Feldman: Nice. Yeah, I honestly I'm almost I keep thinking I'm like in a couple months wanna have you back after you couple get a couple of cohort cohorts in and just to hear s I would love to hear the results. I think I speak for everybody. Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: Yes, sir. I want to bring my learners up. I want to talk to my learners. I'd like, hey, like, and I'll you can go on the hinge with them. They're they're crazier than me. They'll tell you for real, for real, you know.
Gene Feldman: Maybe may maybe we'll have an episode where we have you and a couple of your learners and 'cause w honestly, 'cause I th I I see everybody nodding their head 'cause I think it'd be great to hear their perspective on it rather than
Mark G: After they laid down the the torch or the wrench, what's the after
Dan Meeks: Yeah.
Mark G: effect? Right. That's gonna
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Mark G: be the title right there, you know, and it's it's it's not it's not the Crawford. It's it's the learners.
Dan Meeks: No, that that that's perfectly on. I mean I wear these goofy goggles every damn day, you know, and I I wanna see from somebody who
Geoff Crawford: Hey.
Dan Meeks: doesn't. Yeah.
Gene Feldman: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: And they're gonna, and they'll tell you, like, look, I thought Jeff was crazy. And I thought, hey, but if someone's gonna say what they'll tell you is,
Dan Meeks: Well it's something.
Geoff Crawford: hey, if someone's gonna bring this to me, not make me pay, and tell me they're gonna get a job, I'll give them 12 weeks. That's basically it. So if you go in on saying you can help them, and and and then that's it. And if I don't, then I say, hey, well, you can tell me to go beat it, you know. But like I think that's what they'll tell you. They'll be like, hey, it was o it was too good to be true, but I had nothing to lose. And so though, and then now, you know, and I think if we get to that place, I think we'll be able to execute differently.
Gene Feldman: No, that's absolutely awesome. And with that, I know we ran over. So those of us, those that are listening, thank you guys for hanging on.
Geoff Crawford: I'm sorry.
Gene Feldman: no, you're fine. No, we I I've been in the chat saying we're going to run long. but I think we definitely want to have you back. If you ever wanna come
Geoff Crawford: Absolutely.
Gene Feldman: back just to to be a part of it or to chat, please feel free. But otherwise, you're gonna have an open seat and I think I think it would be exciting to have like I said, have you back in a couple months after cohorts, not only to continue this conversation, but to really like I said, to start looking at some of these results that you're gonna get. I can't wait.
Geoff Crawford: Yeah, I would love to. Cause
Damon: Yeah.
Geoff Crawford: I I really think that the mission then is gonna become, hey, who else wants to come do this? Right. And I think I'll I'll be able to have a little bit of a business model. I'm not trying to be greedy, but for a couple of dollars, I'll show you how to do it. And then you can go and take this and you know, I'm teaching people how to fish. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't want to fish for you. You know, I want to go play golf. So this fishing stuff's out for the birds. I I I wanna go play golf. You know, he's like, but I can't do that right now because we have to solve this problem. But that's what I want. My my vision is to Make people like, hey, have no fear because you can you you too can do it. And once we do that, you know, because I thought you had to be like Sumakum Lauti and you had to have like coding 505. You know, and AI certainly has been helpful, you know what I mean? But it once I was able to actually do it, and like I my favorite quotes from NASA Yoda, do or do not. There is no try. And so it's like, all right, well, okay,
Gene Feldman: Thank you for dropping the star. And with with Yoda's grand words, we will call it. that was fantastic.
Damon: Ha ha
Mark G: Yeah, you better edit right
Gene Feldman: All right, so thank you everybody for joining. Like I said, we're planning, we're gonna have Jeff back, but on the LinkedIn page and on wherever on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Music, we will have links to 824 solutions. So if you wanna check out, I highly recommend checking out what he's doing. As well as we will have everything linked for LinkedIn links. so please reach out if you have any questions. As well as if you have any thoughts for future episodes, please feel free to drop an email. so with that, thank you guys for joining. Jeff, thank you so much. This was fantastic.
Geoff Crawford: Thank you so much, Gene. you have no idea. I really appreciate it.
Gene Feldman: Absolutely. And guys, be sure to follow us. and we'll talk to you next time on the Neon protocol.