WEBVTT
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For decades, women have been told that they can have it all.
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I think we've all heard the messaging like, oh yes, you can do it.
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You can be super mom.
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You can have the work-life balance.
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And you know, that term that I love so much balance.
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Makes me want to puke.
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Yes.
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We have someone with us today, our second ever guest episode.
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Super excited to have Amanda Duncan with us.
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She is the founder of Ciara Consulting.
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She is a mother, a business owner, a former corporate leader.
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She's now working for a client that she first started working with through her consulting firm.
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So she'll talk a little bit about that.
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But Amanda is here today to talk about this topic of women working within and being asked to adapt to systems that don't adapt to them and systems that were not made for them.
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So welcome, Amanda.
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We are super excited to have you here today.
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Great to be here.
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Thank you for joining us.
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I'm very excited to have a chance to have our listeners learn from you and hear your story.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm happy to be here.
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Most NDAs keep people quiet.
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Ours does the opposite.
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Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed.
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Not men, the behaviors that keep women small.
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This is the podcast for women who are done drinking and ready to rise.
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I'm Amanda Kachurka.
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And I'm Elizabeth Zipola.
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Welcome to NDA.
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First of all, uh to kind of set up the topic a little bit, we hear the advice of, oh, set better boundaries, ask for help, manage your time better, advocate for yourself.
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But the problem problems that we run into so frequently are not just with our own individual behavior.
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The systems that we work within and live within weren't designed with us in mind.
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So, Amanda, do you want to talk just a little bit about what we mean by that?
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Absolutely.
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I think, Elizabeth, like you said, that it's a myth, right?
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This whole work-life balance thing.
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And it's really convenient that this concept has been created because it put the onus back on women to solve a problem that we did not create.
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When we look at labor in America, it has vastly not changed at all since the late 1800s.
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And we are operating as though we still have this invisible person at home running the house, taking care of the children, making sure all of those duties are done.
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And yet we're also seeing that for most working families in America, they need a dual income and women make up 50% of our workforce.
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Yet nothing has changed.
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And that burden falls mostly on women.
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I feel like we have to always have that caveat.
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But in most families, women do carry the majority of the labor at home, in addition to whatever their responsibilities are at work.
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Women don't have a time management problem.
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We have a systems problem in our country.
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And we keep putting this burden on women to try to be more efficient, more resilient, more organized, instead of asking how we need to change our workplaces and our public policy to support the reality of what modern families look like today.
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I couldn't have said it better myself than what you just described because the systems that we're operating within today, they were built number one, not by us.
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And they were built during a time when we we definitely couldn't vote.
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We weren't even allowed to own property without having a man co-own it with us.
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We couldn't even obtain a credit card or any sort of credit without having a man assign for it.
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And we definitely weren't participating equally in our society, let alone the workforce.
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So the leadership structures and the organizational design that we see, we had no voice in creating it.
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And yet, like what you said, the expectations are evolving, the systems aren't.
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And then we have these men who we've known and loved and worked with some of them who are like, Yeah, do this.
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Just keep a list, keep this little checklist, just organize yourself better.
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That'll solve all the problems.
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Guess what?
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This fucking guy, he's not the CEO, therapist, schedule, event planner, household ops manager, emotional support human, like all the things.
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Nanny, Chef, Mondra, all of it, all of it.
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Oh, by the way, also we're out of milk.
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So at some point, I have to remember to add that to the grocery list so we buy it this week.
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Honestly, it's insane how much we hold in our brains at once.
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So when you hear these women, just like the three of us, saying they're overwhelmed, what do you think they're actually trying to communicate?
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When you're in that seat and you're trying to like explain to somebody what you are attempting to accomplish without it sounding like you're making excuses for why things might not be getting done as quickly as people want it to be getting done.
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You're asking for help or trying to attempt to ask for help to say, hey, the way things are set up is not feasible for me.
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Like I'm really struggling here.
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I'm doing my best.
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This is my 100% that I'm giving you.
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And it still doesn't feel like enough.
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At this point, like I need you to pick up that torch and carry it for me and make some changes so that I can be successful.
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And unfortunately, oftentimes we do not see employers provoking those systems where parents can thrive in the workplace.
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And what you end up seeing is people leaving the workplace.
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We saw that during COVID in droves, and it was mainly women who, out of necessity, had to leave their careers behind in order to just manage what was happening in their lives.
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And the workforce has not recovered from that in the past six years.
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Well, I agree.
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The workforce hasn't recovered, but something gorgeous and beautiful that I've personally been witnessing, and I'm curious, both Amanda's, if you've witnessed it too.
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And that is women are freaking rising up.
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And you know what they're doing?
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Instead of waiting for someone else to create opportunities, we are setting out on our own.
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We're creating our own opportunities, our own businesses, and creating systems that work for us.
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I mean, Amanda and I, we did it, and you did it too.
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Amanda is in guest Amanda, all three of us did it.
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Yeah, that truly is.
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Chiara, I formed in 2023, but I think 2021, kind of in the throes of COVID, is when I started really seriously thinking about opening my own business.
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My kids were in hybrid school.
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We didn't have child care at all for my infant.
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So we had to hire a full-time nanny, which I certainly could not afford.
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I was working a full-time job.
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I was the president of a local nonprofit organization.
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I was sitting on boards.
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And at some point, I remember feeling like I had a thyroid disorder, I have cancer.
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And I went to my doctor and I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me.
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I am tired all the time, but I sleep constantly, or I can't sleep at all.
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I'm gaining weight.
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I feel sick constantly.
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I think something's really wrong.
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And she was like, We'll check your blood work if that's what you want.
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She goes, Amanda, when you sit down and you look at what everything you're dealing with, you're not sick, you're stressed, and your body is in a constant state, fight or flight, and you just start dumping cortisol into your into your system all day long.
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And that was such a wake-up call for me.
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I was 38, just thinking about approaching my 40s.
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And I was like, I don't want to feel like this forever.
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And I was asking or trying to ask for help, and it wasn't coming.
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And I just came to the conclusion that like nobody is coming to save me, and I'm gonna have to save myself.
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And in 2023, I ended up opening Chiara and leaving my job.
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And it was almost like flicking a switch how quickly everything in my life just started to turn around because I was making the calls on what work I was doing, when I was doing that work.
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I was able to structure it around our family schedule, able to sleep more.
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I was able to spend time eating nutritiously.
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And I feel like a completely different person three years later.
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And I don't think that that would have been possible had I not taken that faith and opened the consultancy.
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It's probably one of the biggest things that I have gained from opening our own business is just being able to structure my days how I need to to be able to take care of myself.
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And I think that's just another way that the system has failed us because when you look at the scheduling for schools and daycares and programming for kids and how that aligns with doesn't align really with the workday.
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And when other types of programming, fitness classes, things like that are offered, it's really hard to squeeze everything into the time that you have available and to also do what you need to do as a parent and or a caregiver, what you need to do with work.
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Also run your household.
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There's just there's literally not enough functioning hours in a day for all of those things to coincide within the typical nine to five system.
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So that's something that I've really noticed as well since going out on our own was I actually have time to do a workout in the morning and make my breakfast and not sit in front of my computer all day, every day, and get up and go for walks periodically.
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It's almost like, which is sad, you have to look at taking that go out on your own route to get the time right.
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I was able to make that call.
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And it took me a while to get to the point where I felt like, okay, I can take that leap.
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But not everybody can just like go out and start their own business.
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That can't be the solution for every woman is well, you're just gonna have to figure out your own system and create your own work.
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That doesn't support our economy.
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We can't have every woman leave to start their own business.
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So again, it goes back to I had to somehow find my own solution.
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The systems that I exist in were not going to provide them.
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One thing that I know that I see often in the coaching work that I do, I think of when they're operating inside this impossible situation, what do we do?
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We don't automatically question the situation.
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Who do we question?
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We question ourselves.
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Yeah, like what's wrong with me?
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Kind of like what you did when you went to the doctor, which by the way, kudos to that doctor who said, No, I'm not just gonna throw you a script or give you this medication.
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I wonder if you would have gotten the same response had it been a different doctor.
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I'm going to suspect probably not.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That's what I'm saying.
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And I this is not like she woman, man haters club or whatever, but I switched to all female doctors because of that, because I felt like my male doctors just did not understand what I was talking about and were like, oh, you're just anxious.
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Here's some more anxiety medications.
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And but this isn't helping, like nothing is changing.
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You need to sleep, you need to change your diet, you need to go see a therapist, and you need to start taking care of yourself and you need to look at what those sources of stress are and see what you can do to address them.
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Exactly.
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Ask yourself, is this even realistic?
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Because I think we do, we confuse our bodies just like throwing us all the signals of being completely depleted and exhausted.
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In our brains, we jumble it up with we're inadequate.
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I think we are getting better about talking about this.
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That's why I think it's important we have these conversations out loud.
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Because when we feel like we're failing in those moments, you don't want to admit that to anybody.
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You don't want to say, I can't do this, because then you feel like, oh, I'm gonna get passed up for opportunities and admitting that I'm not adequate enough for this job.
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And you are, you just need some tweaks and adjustments to make sure that you're capable of doing that work while also attending to the rest of your responsibilities in life.
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And we got to flip that responsibility to the leaders within those organizations and even further up the chain to our social policies within the country to better support outcomes for these women in these situations.
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And I think that's part of the problem too, is the situation that you just described, it's also extremely isolating because it's viewed negatively in our minds and often outside of our own minds too by others.
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When you raise concerns about these things and you try to fix the systems, you're made to feel very isolated.
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Then it's like, oh, I'm the only one who needs this or who's not making this work.
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So obviously I'm the problem, not the system.
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If other people like these are the stories that we tell ourselves, that's the other reason why it's important to raise these conversations and ask for these things and do it in a way where other women are seeing this happen.
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So they feel less alone.
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They know that there are other women who are struggling with these things.
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And then you can work together to try to change the systems, change the policies.
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Because if we're acting in isolation, first of all, it lessens the likelihood that we're actually going to speak up and do something because we feel like we're the only one, but also it's gonna make less of an impact because it's like, oh, if there's only one person, that's not gonna be enough usually to get the change made.
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Right.
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And it's not like our listeners need to do some big grand dramatic movement.
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Imagine if every single person listening to this episode today, if they were to ask themselves, is this hard?
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Whatever the this is that they're trying to juggle and wear all the hats, is this hard because I suck or I'm incapable?
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Or is it because I'm caring too much?
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And those two answers, they're not going to be the same.
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And just even starting, giving yourself permission to ask the question of yourself, then opens the door to possibility to then choose differently, which is exactly how new and different systems can be built and created.
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There's so much research that's coming out now that it's suggesting that organizational and policy level interventions create measurable benefits for both employees and employers.
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So I think this is where looking at the organizational level solutions, flexible work design, paid parental leave, outcome-focused performance measures, caregiver support cultures, leadership models that acknowledge whole humans, not just workers.
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I think this is where we start to see the things that are really beneficial.
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The challenge is, and this is something Elizabeth and I talk about a lot in the work that we do, is that there's so much onus on the employers to want to change.
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The reality is when you're thinking about businesses, money talks, right?
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They're not going to be interested in even examining this.
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There is a clear use case for it, right?
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They're going to get an ROI.
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A lot of these companies that have implemented some of these policies are seeing that when they have policies for women, whether that be providing extended leave, providing subsidies for child care, their employees perform better than they would when they don't have those systems in place.
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So if you start talking about it from that standpoint, that might get people a little bit more interested in having the conversation.
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What can Susie do who's listening to this podcast driving to work to her dreaded job after dropping her two children off at daycare and bringing home probably$50 for a whole week's worth of work?
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It's one decision at a time because what happens is we overfunction and then it looks like success and we're praised for it.
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The first time you handle something well, it's appreciated.
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And then maybe the I don't know, 25th time, it's expected by the hundredth time, they don't notice it anymore.
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And it's an expectation.
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One of the my favorite sayings is we teach people how to treat us.
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And if our listeners today could actually understand that people learn how to interact with you by watching you, and if you're the person, if you're that woman listening today who consistently says, I got it, I'll do it, I'll just do it.
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It's easier, and you're consistently carrying everything, that becomes normal.
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It normalizes it.
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So nothing is gonna expose this faster than if we start to reapproach how we handle things.
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We talk a lot about the power of the pause, and that's something that has been incredibly helpful for me is when I'm asked to do something, and this was especially true in my previous role.
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I would just pause and think, is this my responsibility?
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Is this my thing to take on?
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And if the answer is no, that's okay.
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But then I have to say that.
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Okay, if I'm expected to do this, then here's what's not going to get done as a result.
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And just make it clear that I can't do everything.
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I can't just keep taking things on.
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So that's for me something that's worked.
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Amanda, I know there are probably things that you've done as well.
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Yeah, I did the consulting thing for three straight years and have a lot of different clients, but one of my clients was quickly kind of taking over the majority of my time and they approached me late last year about coming on full time.
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And none of the systems that I've created for myself through KR can change.
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So I can only be able to have the flexibility of between these hours or only taking meetings between these hours, understanding that my work schedule may look different than the person sitting next to me because I have different circumstances.
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They've been great in honoring all of that.
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Those things are not hard to offer all of your employees.
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Anybody could start doing this.
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I think one of the easiest things is I look at cakes.
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Are you guys familiar with the brand cakes?
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Yes, proud, crowd cakes owner over here.
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I have smallers.
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I love them.
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I think I have like everything that they sell, honestly.
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They're great.
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These like those sticky bras or whatever that you sort of.
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There are these little silicone covers that you can stick inside your bra if you have a backless dress, or I put them in my bathing suit.
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You can wear them a million different ways.
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But it's a women-owned company.
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They were in Shark Tank, and that's kind of like how they got a lot of their visibility.
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But they have instituted the most insane parental support policies in their company because I think they're moms and they understand what it's like to work and to be a mother.
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But one of the simplest things they've done is they only do meetings between 10 and 2 because that accommodates a school day and they don't have any meetings at all on Wednesdays so that you have a day where you can just like catch up on work and actually do your work.
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:45.680
Very flexible work schedule.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:58.160
The craziest thing that they've done is they now offer$36,000 annually to their employees per child for child care for kids under the age of six, so that their employees can come back to work.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.759
This is a small startup business that has figured this out.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:13.920
And they're already reporting great outcomes in terms of how their staff is performing, the retention that they've seen from it.
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.400
Another thing that they instituted was a phase-in policy after somebody gives birth.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:30.559
So if I think back to that kind of post-parton period when I was coming back to work, it's very hard, not just because you're trying to catch up on what you missed, but you're not sleeping, like your brain is just frankly not functioning.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.000
It's just a really difficult time to manage.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:42.240
And having those kinds of like gentle, empathetic policies in place to support women who are in that phase of life makes such an impact.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:49.359
And I anticipate they're going to have incredible employee loyalty from instituting these policies.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:50.160
That's awesome.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.400
I want to go buy all of their products now.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.200
You should.
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:53.839
They're great.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:03.839
It's exactly what we talk about in the work that Elizabeth and I do in our business, which is recognizing that your employees are whole humans.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.119
They're not just who they are when they're with you from nine to five.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:09.119
There's a whole life outside of work.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:15.279
And that was always the way that things were done was that you don't exist outside of here to us.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.799
You're who you are when you're here.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:18.720
You have to check all the other stuff at the door.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.480
Humans can't do that.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:26.240
There are people who maybe think they're really good at compartmentalizing their lives, but it's also not good to do that.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.240
So it's an awareness that the system was never built for or by us and it needs massive improvements.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.119
That in and of itself isn't going to change anything.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:51.920
But it, I'll tell you what, it gives all of us some context so that now that we see what's happening, and every single person listening to this podcast episode, once they hear you putting words to this thing that they've been feeling, now they can make a different choice for themselves.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Unlearn some of those beliefs.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:53.839
Yes.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.920
Who cares if you've always looked at it a different way?
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:56.880
Today's a different day.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:57.599
Unlearn it.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:58.160
Exactly.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:58.480
Right.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:09.200
I think for other working women who are listening to this working moms, leaders who are feeling this way, I would take this as like you are not alone and you are not the problem.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:10.960
There is nothing wrong with you.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.720
You don't need to feel guilty about not being able to manage all of this.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.799
You're being asked to do the impossible.
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:17.839
And let it stop there.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:24.880
I'm not asking you to do anything more than like give yourself some grace and empathy for what you have been asked to shoulder.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:38.000
But if there are business leaders listening to this, I would challenge them to look at how they're operating their businesses and choose one small change that could make a significant impact on their employees.
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:43.680
And maybe that is that there's a day where you don't have meetings or that you stop scheduling meetings at 9 a.m.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:44.640
or 3 p.m.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Because I can't tell you the amount of times I have taken Teams calls in my car, or I've been standing in the pickup line with the phone to my ear, trying to manage a meeting, and also like greet my children who I haven't seen for six hours and just want to kind of run out and dump their.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.759
Day on me, and they're so excited.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.440
And I'm like, can we stop?
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:17.839
There's no reason that that needs to happen if we make different choices, but can we stop putting the onus on the women in those situations to demand those changes and just say, hey, I recognize that this is a problem and I'm going to solve it for you.
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:26.240
I love that for the business owners and organizational leaders who have the ability to make those policy changes within their organization.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:44.960
And for each individual woman who's listening today, and by the way, I don't care if you're 20 years old or 19 or 18 and you're just starting out in your life, or if you're a working professional, or maybe you're retired and you're supporting adult children or caring for aging parents, it really doesn't matter.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.000
But the principle of what I'm about to say stays the same.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:23:01.680
And that is, I think we as women, we can choose differently in those circumstances on the daily because we can care really deeply about the people in our orbit, but we don't have to care re everything for them.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:02.400
How about this?
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.119
Cherry pick one responsibility that is just so freaking exhausting to you.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.440
And then ask yourself, is it mine?
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:10.880
Is it shared?
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:11.920
Is it not mine?
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.559
Then instead of saying, What more can I do?
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.240
Ask yourself what can be shared and then give yourself permission to share it.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:23.440
And even if it's not done exactly as you would do, ladies, let it be done by someone else.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:25.839
Yeah, we get in our own way a lot of times with that.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:26.480
Delegate.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.119
Going back to something that we said on another episode.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:35.279
A lot of times we don't delegate because, oh, it's not going to get done the way that I want it to be done or the way that I would do it.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:41.839
But at that point, is done good enough when you're stacking a million different things on your plate that need to get done.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.319
If it's just done, sometimes that's okay.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:44.799
Yes.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:46.640
And I think that's something that I struggle with.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.000
That's a hard one.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.839
A lot of this is just born out of like, I've always been a super high achieving person.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:59.119
And when I had my daughter when I was 28, that was a wake-up call because it was the first time that I think I truly struggled to achieve.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:13.200
But I was so used to doing everything myself and doing it a certain way that asking for help or allowing somebody else to do something for me and accepting that it might not be up to my particular standards, but that's okay.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.640
Like it would just get done.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.920
Like that really is sometimes the only way that you can manage everything is just to let go of control a little bit.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:30.559
But again, like to ask for help, whether that's in your relationship at home or if it's at work, if you're looking for things that this doesn't necessarily need to be on my plate, let's look for somebody else who can do this instead.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:38.960
I love what you just said, Amanda, because if everyone listening could even think of just one responsibility, and I'm gonna challenge myself to do this.
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.920
One responsibility that we're carrying right now, today, that we're ready to hand back.
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:46.240
I think that's a very powerful question.
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:52.240
And it gets the momentum shifted in the right direction so that we're not continuing to carry everything.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.279
It's just one thing.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:54.559
We talk about it all the time.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:01.680
If tomorrow you did something just one percent better or just one thing that's different, that's progress.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:02.319
Absolutely.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.240
I think this is a good time to switch to our recurring segment, shrink this.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:20.079
So, this is the part of the episode where we will share shrinking behaviors that we've caught ourselves in recently and when or how we recognize the shrink and what we're going to do about it differently in the future, what we did in that moment differently.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.839
So, Amanda, as the guest, if you'd like to go first.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:28.960
This is kind of funny because I absolutely put myself into this box.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:36.880
I had an opportunity essentially when I switched from being a contractor to a W-2 in my own job to write my own job description.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.079
I kind of pride myself on I can do all these things.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.880
And I'm like good at a lot of different things and I can balance a lot of different projects at once.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:50.720
And so I created this job description and looking back on it now, I was like, wow, did you want to fail?
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:51.759
What were you thinking?
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.519
I just put so much into it because I'm really excited about a lot of things.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.680
I like this term like multi-passionate.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:58.640
Oh, I like that.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:04.319
You know, it's it's hard for me to focus on like the one thing because there's so many things that I care about and have fun doing.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.359
But I think it came to a head a couple months ago where it was like, hey, this is not working.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.119
The way that we structured this is actually not feasible.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:26.480
And I was pulling my hair out, trying to make it all work and definitely had to have a difficult conversation with my client turned boss, where I like had to tell him no, I think for the first time ever, no, I cannot do this.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.039
And it took everything in me to work myself up to having that conversation.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:32.799
And it was over a Teams call.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.839
And he even called out, like through the screen, he was like, Are you nervous right now?
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.599
He could see that my hands were shaking.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.880
He was like, Why are you so nervous?
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.480
And I'm like, I don't like saying I can't or I'm not able to.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.720
It feels like I'm emitting defeat and failure.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.000
And he was so supportive.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:49.759
He was like, No, this is what you need, then this is what we're gonna do, and we'll figure it out.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.640
And that's what we've been working on is we're we're trying to figure out what my position really looks like and how I can be successful in it.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:06.000
So it's been a learning opportunity for me to understand that a lot of times I put all this on my plate and then I get resentful.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:12.160
I also need to set better smart goals for myself, particularly on that R and smart is this realistic, Amanda.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.960
And the answer is, no ma'am, it is not.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:15.759
You need to call me out.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:23.279
Yes, a lot of us and the those of us women who are high achieving, we are totally unrealistic.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.559
It's like we can't even trust ourselves to say, is this realistic?
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.119
I feel like we should ask a close friend, they'll be honest.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:29.440
Right?
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:29.680
Yeah.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.119
I do that to myself all the time.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:36.400
And then I go back and I look at my to-do list the next day and I'm like, oh, I am so not this person today.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.319
I was yesterday, but not today.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.559
It's definitely resonates with me for sure.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.880
Mine's actually in a similar vein.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.119
So we have a big family vacation that we take every year at the Outer Banks.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.279
We've done it my entire life, and it's a lot of people, it's like 30 people.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.680
So we like to try to be together for dinner every night.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:01.920
Going out is not really an option because there's so many of us, and we have kids in the group that range from just a few months old all the way up to 12.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.559
So we need to have mealtime at the respective houses that we're staying in.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:13.920
And so we set up this system where we rotate between the houses and everybody kind of takes a different evening to cook for the group.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:29.519
And I was putting a lot of, and I didn't realize this until recently, I actually threw a conversation with the dietitian that I've been meeting with, I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to be a big part of that meal prep most nights.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:34.799
And it was getting to a point where I was resenting having to do that.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.319
And it was making me not enjoy the vacation.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:46.079
It was added stress because I was also thinking about the other family members who were committing to things.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.880
It's going to be so much more complicated than it needs to be.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:54.000
And through that conversation, it was like, why am I taking on all of these things?
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:59.200
And why am I putting so much pressure on myself to be even there every single night?
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:04.079
If my husband and I want to go out for dinner one night, just the two of us, could we not do that?
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:05.039
Is that not an option?
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:06.799
Just opt out of dinner that evening.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.079
Yeah, that's an option.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:19.359
So going into the trip this year, that's something that I've really been more purposeful about is spending time actually enjoying the vacation.
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.920
Because ultimately what would happen is I'd come back and I felt like I needed a vacation for my vacation.
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:30.559
Because I spent the entire trip doing things for other people that I normally just do for myself at home.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.000
That's not vacation.
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:32.799
Right.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.200
No.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.519
So I'm happy to say this year my husband and I have a couple's massage scheduled.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.279
We're gonna go out to dinner one night.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:46.960
So we're taking some time to really enjoy and spend our vacation doing the things that we want to do instead of constantly focusing on catering to everyone else.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.000
That's fantastic.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:56.319
I think just to wrap our topic, Amanda, I'd love to hear some closing thoughts from you.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.759
I know you have a daughter.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:12.240
So as you watch her growing and you look to the next generation of women leaders, what are some of the things that you hope that they never have to face or things that they have to unlearn?
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.920
I think about this all the time.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.519
My daughter is like my shadow and my little mini me.
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:20.880
And it's interesting to hear her talk about what she wants out of life.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:25.200
She's actually in the stage of being very anti-marriage and anti-children.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.200
And she's very vocal about it.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:34.880
But from her perspective, when she talks about it, she talks about I don't want to have to be cleaning up after somebody my whole life.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.319
I don't want to be living in a house that's I don't have control over.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.160
She wants to have control over her environment.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.039
She's 13.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.480
This may change in time, right?
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:53.519
I would love to get to the point where women are not so overburdened with the mental load of the household.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:07.519
I think the reason why women just carry this like simmering rage at all times is it just feels very unfair all the time to go from your nine to five and then immediately hop into basically another full-time job.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:18.480
I also have two sons, and I'm very aware that I do not want to raise them in those same gender norms that have existed to this point in time.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.079
And I call it out by name.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:31.279
My daughter, I already see her taking on more of the domestic labor with me because she sees me running around and her brothers are messy and they just don't care.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.920
Yesterday I turned to my middle son who is 11 now, and I said, I will not raise a son who thinks it's not his responsibility to take care of the household.
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.400
You will know how to cook, you will know how to clean, you will know how to take care of other people.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.880
And she just looked at me with big wide eyes.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:32:00.480
But I think it's important for them to hear it seems like it's not that big of a deal, but it truly is because if that becomes a norm and that's how they understand that gender relations work, then these patterns are just going to keep persisting.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:11.680
So it's, I think, important to set good examples for our daughters, but it's also important to set good examples for the men that we are raising now to be better partners in this thing called life.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:12.240
Amen.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.920
Oh, I love that so much.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:21.279
The whole purpose of this platform is so we can learn from each other and grow together and do better and do differently.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:30.319
And so if you have a topic that you'd like us to talk about, or if you have a shrinking behavior you'd like us to share, feel free to reach out on Instagram.
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:32.640
We are at NDA underscore pod.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.960
We would love, love, love to hear from you.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.640
And also make sure to subscribe so you never miss a future episode.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.279
We are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, anywhere you get your podcasts.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.559
We would love for you to subscribe.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.119
Yes.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:53.519
And Amanda Duncan, if you could just maybe tell our listeners where they can find you and find more information about your business.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.079
Sure.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:59.920
You can find Chiara Consultants on LinkedIn and Facebook and at Chiara Consultants.com.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.160
It's C-H-I-A-R-A.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.000
That means light in Italian, by the way, for anybody who is wondering.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:12.000
We are a strategic operations and fractional chief of staff consulting organization.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.559
So if your organization could benefit from that, something like that, please reach out.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:17.119
Love it.
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:18.880
And just some parting thoughts.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.519
I know I would like to leave our listeners today.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:27.200
And I think all of us want to make sure you understand that the problem is not that you're failing.
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:41.440
It's it's more likely that you become so freaking good at carrying everything for everyone around you that now naturally and quietly you're trying to hold on to more than any human being could carry.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:49.839
So, can you, as an individual, change this entire system overnight that the societal system and workplace systems that we talked about?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:50.240
No.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:56.160
But what you can do is start asking better questions in your own system that you're a part of.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:00.960
And those three questions, what is mine, what is shared, and what is not mine?
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:09.360
Because the goal that we want you walking out of today's episode with is we don't want you to become a woman who carries more.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:18.559
We want you to become a woman who knows what is actually hers to carry and is teaching the young women behind you who are watching you to do the same.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:04.639
For decades, women have been told that they can have it all.
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:08.000
I think we've all heard the messaging like, oh yes, you can do it.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.199
You can be super mom.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:11.439
You can have the work-life balance.
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.320
And you know, that term that I love so much balance.
00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:16.000
Makes me want to puke.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:16.480
Yes.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.519
We have someone with us today, our second ever guest episode.
00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:27.039
Super excited to have Amanda Duncan with us.
00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:30.079
She is the founder of Ciara Consulting.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.280
She is a mother, a business owner, a former corporate leader.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:38.560
She's now working for a client that she first started working with through her consulting firm.
00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:40.159
So she'll talk a little bit about that.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:53.600
But Amanda is here today to talk about this topic of women working within and being asked to adapt to systems that don't adapt to them and systems that were not made for them.
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:54.960
So welcome, Amanda.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:56.560
We are super excited to have you here today.
00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.679
Great to be here.
00:00:57.920 --> 00:00:58.960
Thank you for joining us.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:03.759
I'm very excited to have a chance to have our listeners learn from you and hear your story.
00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:04.799
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:06.239
I'm happy to be here.
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.000
Most NDAs keep people quiet.
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:11.920
Ours does the opposite.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.920
Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed.
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.439
Not men, the behaviors that keep women small.
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This is the podcast for women who are done drinking and ready to rise.
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I'm Amanda Kachurka.
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And I'm Elizabeth Zipola.
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Welcome to NDA.
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First of all, uh to kind of set up the topic a little bit, we hear the advice of, oh, set better boundaries, ask for help, manage your time better, advocate for yourself.
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But the problem problems that we run into so frequently are not just with our own individual behavior.
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The systems that we work within and live within weren't designed with us in mind.
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So, Amanda, do you want to talk just a little bit about what we mean by that?
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Absolutely.
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I think, Elizabeth, like you said, that it's a myth, right?
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This whole work-life balance thing.
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And it's really convenient that this concept has been created because it put the onus back on women to solve a problem that we did not create.
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When we look at labor in America, it has vastly not changed at all since the late 1800s.
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And we are operating as though we still have this invisible person at home running the house, taking care of the children, making sure all of those duties are done.
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And yet we're also seeing that for most working families in America, they need a dual income and women make up 50% of our workforce.
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Yet nothing has changed.
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And that burden falls mostly on women.
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I feel like we have to always have that caveat.
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But in most families, women do carry the majority of the labor at home, in addition to whatever their responsibilities are at work.
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Women don't have a time management problem.
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We have a systems problem in our country.
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And we keep putting this burden on women to try to be more efficient, more resilient, more organized, instead of asking how we need to change our workplaces and our public policy to support the reality of what modern families look like today.
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I couldn't have said it better myself than what you just described because the systems that we're operating within today, they were built number one, not by us.
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And they were built during a time when we we definitely couldn't vote.
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We weren't even allowed to own property without having a man co-own it with us.
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We couldn't even obtain a credit card or any sort of credit without having a man assign for it.
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And we definitely weren't participating equally in our society, let alone the workforce.
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So the leadership structures and the organizational design that we see, we had no voice in creating it.
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And yet, like what you said, the expectations are evolving, the systems aren't.
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And then we have these men who we've known and loved and worked with some of them who are like, Yeah, do this.
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Just keep a list, keep this little checklist, just organize yourself better.
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That'll solve all the problems.
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Guess what?
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This fucking guy, he's not the CEO, therapist, schedule, event planner, household ops manager, emotional support human, like all the things.
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Nanny, Chef, Mondra, all of it, all of it.
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Oh, by the way, also we're out of milk.
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So at some point, I have to remember to add that to the grocery list so we buy it this week.
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Honestly, it's insane how much we hold in our brains at once.
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So when you hear these women, just like the three of us, saying they're overwhelmed, what do you think they're actually trying to communicate?
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When you're in that seat and you're trying to like explain to somebody what you are attempting to accomplish without it sounding like you're making excuses for why things might not be getting done as quickly as people want it to be getting done.
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You're asking for help or trying to attempt to ask for help to say, hey, the way things are set up is not feasible for me.
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Like I'm really struggling here.
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I'm doing my best.
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This is my 100% that I'm giving you.
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And it still doesn't feel like enough.
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At this point, like I need you to pick up that torch and carry it for me and make some changes so that I can be successful.
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And unfortunately, oftentimes we do not see employers provoking those systems where parents can thrive in the workplace.
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And what you end up seeing is people leaving the workplace.
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We saw that during COVID in droves, and it was mainly women who, out of necessity, had to leave their careers behind in order to just manage what was happening in their lives.
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And the workforce has not recovered from that in the past six years.
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Well, I agree.
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The workforce hasn't recovered, but something gorgeous and beautiful that I've personally been witnessing, and I'm curious, both Amanda's, if you've witnessed it too.
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And that is women are freaking rising up.
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And you know what they're doing?
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Instead of waiting for someone else to create opportunities, we are setting out on our own.
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We're creating our own opportunities, our own businesses, and creating systems that work for us.
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I mean, Amanda and I, we did it, and you did it too.
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Amanda is in guest Amanda, all three of us did it.
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Yeah, that truly is.
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Chiara, I formed in 2023, but I think 2021, kind of in the throes of COVID, is when I started really seriously thinking about opening my own business.
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My kids were in hybrid school.
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We didn't have child care at all for my infant.
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So we had to hire a full-time nanny, which I certainly could not afford.
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I was working a full-time job.
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I was the president of a local nonprofit organization.
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I was sitting on boards.
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And at some point, I remember feeling like I had a thyroid disorder, I have cancer.
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And I went to my doctor and I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me.
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I am tired all the time, but I sleep constantly, or I can't sleep at all.
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I'm gaining weight.
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I feel sick constantly.
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I think something's really wrong.
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And she was like, We'll check your blood work if that's what you want.
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She goes, Amanda, when you sit down and you look at what everything you're dealing with, you're not sick, you're stressed, and your body is in a constant state, fight or flight, and you just start dumping cortisol into your into your system all day long.
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And that was such a wake-up call for me.
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I was 38, just thinking about approaching my 40s.
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And I was like, I don't want to feel like this forever.
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And I was asking or trying to ask for help, and it wasn't coming.
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And I just came to the conclusion that like nobody is coming to save me, and I'm gonna have to save myself.
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And in 2023, I ended up opening Chiara and leaving my job.
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And it was almost like flicking a switch how quickly everything in my life just started to turn around because I was making the calls on what work I was doing, when I was doing that work.
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I was able to structure it around our family schedule, able to sleep more.
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I was able to spend time eating nutritiously.
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And I feel like a completely different person three years later.
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And I don't think that that would have been possible had I not taken that faith and opened the consultancy.
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It's probably one of the biggest things that I have gained from opening our own business is just being able to structure my days how I need to to be able to take care of myself.
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And I think that's just another way that the system has failed us because when you look at the scheduling for schools and daycares and programming for kids and how that aligns with doesn't align really with the workday.
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And when other types of programming, fitness classes, things like that are offered, it's really hard to squeeze everything into the time that you have available and to also do what you need to do as a parent and or a caregiver, what you need to do with work.
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Also run your household.
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There's just there's literally not enough functioning hours in a day for all of those things to coincide within the typical nine to five system.
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So that's something that I've really noticed as well since going out on our own was I actually have time to do a workout in the morning and make my breakfast and not sit in front of my computer all day, every day, and get up and go for walks periodically.
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It's almost like, which is sad, you have to look at taking that go out on your own route to get the time right.
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I was able to make that call.
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And it took me a while to get to the point where I felt like, okay, I can take that leap.
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But not everybody can just like go out and start their own business.
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That can't be the solution for every woman is well, you're just gonna have to figure out your own system and create your own work.
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That doesn't support our economy.
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We can't have every woman leave to start their own business.
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So again, it goes back to I had to somehow find my own solution.
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The systems that I exist in were not going to provide them.
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One thing that I know that I see often in the coaching work that I do, I think of when they're operating inside this impossible situation, what do we do?
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We don't automatically question the situation.
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Who do we question?
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We question ourselves.
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Yeah, like what's wrong with me?
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Kind of like what you did when you went to the doctor, which by the way, kudos to that doctor who said, No, I'm not just gonna throw you a script or give you this medication.
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I wonder if you would have gotten the same response had it been a different doctor.
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I'm going to suspect probably not.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That's what I'm saying.
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And I this is not like she woman, man haters club or whatever, but I switched to all female doctors because of that, because I felt like my male doctors just did not understand what I was talking about and were like, oh, you're just anxious.
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Here's some more anxiety medications.
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And but this isn't helping, like nothing is changing.
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You need to sleep, you need to change your diet, you need to go see a therapist, and you need to start taking care of yourself and you need to look at what those sources of stress are and see what you can do to address them.
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Exactly.
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Ask yourself, is this even realistic?
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Because I think we do, we confuse our bodies just like throwing us all the signals of being completely depleted and exhausted.
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In our brains, we jumble it up with we're inadequate.
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I think we are getting better about talking about this.
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That's why I think it's important we have these conversations out loud.
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Because when we feel like we're failing in those moments, you don't want to admit that to anybody.
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You don't want to say, I can't do this, because then you feel like, oh, I'm gonna get passed up for opportunities and admitting that I'm not adequate enough for this job.
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And you are, you just need some tweaks and adjustments to make sure that you're capable of doing that work while also attending to the rest of your responsibilities in life.
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And we got to flip that responsibility to the leaders within those organizations and even further up the chain to our social policies within the country to better support outcomes for these women in these situations.
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And I think that's part of the problem too, is the situation that you just described, it's also extremely isolating because it's viewed negatively in our minds and often outside of our own minds too by others.
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When you raise concerns about these things and you try to fix the systems, you're made to feel very isolated.
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Then it's like, oh, I'm the only one who needs this or who's not making this work.
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So obviously I'm the problem, not the system.
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If other people like these are the stories that we tell ourselves, that's the other reason why it's important to raise these conversations and ask for these things and do it in a way where other women are seeing this happen.
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So they feel less alone.
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They know that there are other women who are struggling with these things.
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And then you can work together to try to change the systems, change the policies.
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Because if we're acting in isolation, first of all, it lessens the likelihood that we're actually going to speak up and do something because we feel like we're the only one, but also it's gonna make less of an impact because it's like, oh, if there's only one person, that's not gonna be enough usually to get the change made.
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Right.
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And it's not like our listeners need to do some big grand dramatic movement.
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Imagine if every single person listening to this episode today, if they were to ask themselves, is this hard?
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Whatever the this is that they're trying to juggle and wear all the hats, is this hard because I suck or I'm incapable?
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Or is it because I'm caring too much?
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And those two answers, they're not going to be the same.
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And just even starting, giving yourself permission to ask the question of yourself, then opens the door to possibility to then choose differently, which is exactly how new and different systems can be built and created.
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There's so much research that's coming out now that it's suggesting that organizational and policy level interventions create measurable benefits for both employees and employers.
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So I think this is where looking at the organizational level solutions, flexible work design, paid parental leave, outcome-focused performance measures, caregiver support cultures, leadership models that acknowledge whole humans, not just workers.
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I think this is where we start to see the things that are really beneficial.
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The challenge is, and this is something Elizabeth and I talk about a lot in the work that we do, is that there's so much onus on the employers to want to change.
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The reality is when you're thinking about businesses, money talks, right?
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They're not going to be interested in even examining this.
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There is a clear use case for it, right?
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They're going to get an ROI.
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A lot of these companies that have implemented some of these policies are seeing that when they have policies for women, whether that be providing extended leave, providing subsidies for child care, their employees perform better than they would when they don't have those systems in place.
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So if you start talking about it from that standpoint, that might get people a little bit more interested in having the conversation.
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What can Susie do who's listening to this podcast driving to work to her dreaded job after dropping her two children off at daycare and bringing home probably$50 for a whole week's worth of work?
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It's one decision at a time because what happens is we overfunction and then it looks like success and we're praised for it.
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The first time you handle something well, it's appreciated.
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And then maybe the I don't know, 25th time, it's expected by the hundredth time, they don't notice it anymore.
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And it's an expectation.
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One of the my favorite sayings is we teach people how to treat us.
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And if our listeners today could actually understand that people learn how to interact with you by watching you, and if you're the person, if you're that woman listening today who consistently says, I got it, I'll do it, I'll just do it.
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It's easier, and you're consistently carrying everything, that becomes normal.
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It normalizes it.
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So nothing is gonna expose this faster than if we start to reapproach how we handle things.
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We talk a lot about the power of the pause, and that's something that has been incredibly helpful for me is when I'm asked to do something, and this was especially true in my previous role.
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I would just pause and think, is this my responsibility?
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Is this my thing to take on?
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And if the answer is no, that's okay.
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But then I have to say that.
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Okay, if I'm expected to do this, then here's what's not going to get done as a result.
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And just make it clear that I can't do everything.
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I can't just keep taking things on.
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So that's for me something that's worked.
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Amanda, I know there are probably things that you've done as well.
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Yeah, I did the consulting thing for three straight years and have a lot of different clients, but one of my clients was quickly kind of taking over the majority of my time and they approached me late last year about coming on full time.
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And none of the systems that I've created for myself through KR can change.
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So I can only be able to have the flexibility of between these hours or only taking meetings between these hours, understanding that my work schedule may look different than the person sitting next to me because I have different circumstances.
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They've been great in honoring all of that.
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Those things are not hard to offer all of your employees.
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Anybody could start doing this.
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I think one of the easiest things is I look at cakes.
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Are you guys familiar with the brand cakes?
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Yes, proud, crowd cakes owner over here.
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I have smallers.
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I love them.
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I think I have like everything that they sell, honestly.
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They're great.
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These like those sticky bras or whatever that you sort of.
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There are these little silicone covers that you can stick inside your bra if you have a backless dress, or I put them in my bathing suit.
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You can wear them a million different ways.
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But it's a women-owned company.
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They were in Shark Tank, and that's kind of like how they got a lot of their visibility.
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But they have instituted the most insane parental support policies in their company because I think they're moms and they understand what it's like to work and to be a mother.
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But one of the simplest things they've done is they only do meetings between 10 and 2 because that accommodates a school day and they don't have any meetings at all on Wednesdays so that you have a day where you can just like catch up on work and actually do your work.
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Very flexible work schedule.
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The craziest thing that they've done is they now offer$36,000 annually to their employees per child for child care for kids under the age of six, so that their employees can come back to work.
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This is a small startup business that has figured this out.
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And they're already reporting great outcomes in terms of how their staff is performing, the retention that they've seen from it.
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Another thing that they instituted was a phase-in policy after somebody gives birth.
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So if I think back to that kind of post-parton period when I was coming back to work, it's very hard, not just because you're trying to catch up on what you missed, but you're not sleeping, like your brain is just frankly not functioning.
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It's just a really difficult time to manage.
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And having those kinds of like gentle, empathetic policies in place to support women who are in that phase of life makes such an impact.
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And I anticipate they're going to have incredible employee loyalty from instituting these policies.
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That's awesome.
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I want to go buy all of their products now.
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You should.
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They're great.
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It's exactly what we talk about in the work that Elizabeth and I do in our business, which is recognizing that your employees are whole humans.
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They're not just who they are when they're with you from nine to five.
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There's a whole life outside of work.
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And that was always the way that things were done was that you don't exist outside of here to us.
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You're who you are when you're here.
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You have to check all the other stuff at the door.
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Humans can't do that.
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There are people who maybe think they're really good at compartmentalizing their lives, but it's also not good to do that.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.240
So it's an awareness that the system was never built for or by us and it needs massive improvements.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.119
That in and of itself isn't going to change anything.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:51.920
But it, I'll tell you what, it gives all of us some context so that now that we see what's happening, and every single person listening to this podcast episode, once they hear you putting words to this thing that they've been feeling, now they can make a different choice for themselves.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Unlearn some of those beliefs.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:53.839
Yes.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.920
Who cares if you've always looked at it a different way?
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:56.880
Today's a different day.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:57.599
Unlearn it.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:58.160
Exactly.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:58.480
Right.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:09.200
I think for other working women who are listening to this working moms, leaders who are feeling this way, I would take this as like you are not alone and you are not the problem.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:10.960
There is nothing wrong with you.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.720
You don't need to feel guilty about not being able to manage all of this.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.799
You're being asked to do the impossible.
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:17.839
And let it stop there.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:24.880
I'm not asking you to do anything more than like give yourself some grace and empathy for what you have been asked to shoulder.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:38.000
But if there are business leaders listening to this, I would challenge them to look at how they're operating their businesses and choose one small change that could make a significant impact on their employees.
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:43.680
And maybe that is that there's a day where you don't have meetings or that you stop scheduling meetings at 9 a.m.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:44.640
or 3 p.m.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Because I can't tell you the amount of times I have taken Teams calls in my car, or I've been standing in the pickup line with the phone to my ear, trying to manage a meeting, and also like greet my children who I haven't seen for six hours and just want to kind of run out and dump their.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.759
Day on me, and they're so excited.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.440
And I'm like, can we stop?
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:17.839
There's no reason that that needs to happen if we make different choices, but can we stop putting the onus on the women in those situations to demand those changes and just say, hey, I recognize that this is a problem and I'm going to solve it for you.
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:26.240
I love that for the business owners and organizational leaders who have the ability to make those policy changes within their organization.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:44.960
And for each individual woman who's listening today, and by the way, I don't care if you're 20 years old or 19 or 18 and you're just starting out in your life, or if you're a working professional, or maybe you're retired and you're supporting adult children or caring for aging parents, it really doesn't matter.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.000
But the principle of what I'm about to say stays the same.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:23:01.680
And that is, I think we as women, we can choose differently in those circumstances on the daily because we can care really deeply about the people in our orbit, but we don't have to care re everything for them.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:02.400
How about this?
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.119
Cherry pick one responsibility that is just so freaking exhausting to you.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.440
And then ask yourself, is it mine?
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:10.880
Is it shared?
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:11.920
Is it not mine?
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.559
Then instead of saying, What more can I do?
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.240
Ask yourself what can be shared and then give yourself permission to share it.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:23.440
And even if it's not done exactly as you would do, ladies, let it be done by someone else.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:25.839
Yeah, we get in our own way a lot of times with that.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:26.480
Delegate.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.119
Going back to something that we said on another episode.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:35.279
A lot of times we don't delegate because, oh, it's not going to get done the way that I want it to be done or the way that I would do it.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:41.839
But at that point, is done good enough when you're stacking a million different things on your plate that need to get done.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.319
If it's just done, sometimes that's okay.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:44.799
Yes.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:46.640
And I think that's something that I struggle with.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.000
That's a hard one.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.839
A lot of this is just born out of like, I've always been a super high achieving person.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:59.119
And when I had my daughter when I was 28, that was a wake-up call because it was the first time that I think I truly struggled to achieve.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:13.200
But I was so used to doing everything myself and doing it a certain way that asking for help or allowing somebody else to do something for me and accepting that it might not be up to my particular standards, but that's okay.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.640
Like it would just get done.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.920
Like that really is sometimes the only way that you can manage everything is just to let go of control a little bit.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:30.559
But again, like to ask for help, whether that's in your relationship at home or if it's at work, if you're looking for things that this doesn't necessarily need to be on my plate, let's look for somebody else who can do this instead.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:38.960
I love what you just said, Amanda, because if everyone listening could even think of just one responsibility, and I'm gonna challenge myself to do this.
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.920
One responsibility that we're carrying right now, today, that we're ready to hand back.
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:46.240
I think that's a very powerful question.
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:52.240
And it gets the momentum shifted in the right direction so that we're not continuing to carry everything.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.279
It's just one thing.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:54.559
We talk about it all the time.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:01.680
If tomorrow you did something just one percent better or just one thing that's different, that's progress.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:02.319
Absolutely.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.240
I think this is a good time to switch to our recurring segment, shrink this.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:20.079
So, this is the part of the episode where we will share shrinking behaviors that we've caught ourselves in recently and when or how we recognize the shrink and what we're going to do about it differently in the future, what we did in that moment differently.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.839
So, Amanda, as the guest, if you'd like to go first.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:28.960
This is kind of funny because I absolutely put myself into this box.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:36.880
I had an opportunity essentially when I switched from being a contractor to a W-2 in my own job to write my own job description.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.079
I kind of pride myself on I can do all these things.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.880
And I'm like good at a lot of different things and I can balance a lot of different projects at once.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:50.720
And so I created this job description and looking back on it now, I was like, wow, did you want to fail?
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:51.759
What were you thinking?
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.519
I just put so much into it because I'm really excited about a lot of things.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.680
I like this term like multi-passionate.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:58.640
Oh, I like that.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:04.319
You know, it's it's hard for me to focus on like the one thing because there's so many things that I care about and have fun doing.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.359
But I think it came to a head a couple months ago where it was like, hey, this is not working.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.119
The way that we structured this is actually not feasible.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:26.480
And I was pulling my hair out, trying to make it all work and definitely had to have a difficult conversation with my client turned boss, where I like had to tell him no, I think for the first time ever, no, I cannot do this.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.039
And it took everything in me to work myself up to having that conversation.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:32.799
And it was over a Teams call.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.839
And he even called out, like through the screen, he was like, Are you nervous right now?
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.599
He could see that my hands were shaking.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.880
He was like, Why are you so nervous?
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.480
And I'm like, I don't like saying I can't or I'm not able to.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.720
It feels like I'm emitting defeat and failure.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.000
And he was so supportive.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:49.759
He was like, No, this is what you need, then this is what we're gonna do, and we'll figure it out.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.640
And that's what we've been working on is we're we're trying to figure out what my position really looks like and how I can be successful in it.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:06.000
So it's been a learning opportunity for me to understand that a lot of times I put all this on my plate and then I get resentful.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:12.160
I also need to set better smart goals for myself, particularly on that R and smart is this realistic, Amanda.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.960
And the answer is, no ma'am, it is not.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:15.759
You need to call me out.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:23.279
Yes, a lot of us and the those of us women who are high achieving, we are totally unrealistic.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.559
It's like we can't even trust ourselves to say, is this realistic?
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.119
I feel like we should ask a close friend, they'll be honest.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:29.440
Right?
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:29.680
Yeah.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.119
I do that to myself all the time.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:36.400
And then I go back and I look at my to-do list the next day and I'm like, oh, I am so not this person today.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.319
I was yesterday, but not today.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.559
It's definitely resonates with me for sure.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.880
Mine's actually in a similar vein.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.119
So we have a big family vacation that we take every year at the Outer Banks.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.279
We've done it my entire life, and it's a lot of people, it's like 30 people.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.680
So we like to try to be together for dinner every night.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:01.920
Going out is not really an option because there's so many of us, and we have kids in the group that range from just a few months old all the way up to 12.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.559
So we need to have mealtime at the respective houses that we're staying in.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:13.920
And so we set up this system where we rotate between the houses and everybody kind of takes a different evening to cook for the group.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:29.519
And I was putting a lot of, and I didn't realize this until recently, I actually threw a conversation with the dietitian that I've been meeting with, I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to be a big part of that meal prep most nights.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:34.799
And it was getting to a point where I was resenting having to do that.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.319
And it was making me not enjoy the vacation.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:46.079
It was added stress because I was also thinking about the other family members who were committing to things.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.880
It's going to be so much more complicated than it needs to be.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:54.000
And through that conversation, it was like, why am I taking on all of these things?
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:59.200
And why am I putting so much pressure on myself to be even there every single night?
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:04.079
If my husband and I want to go out for dinner one night, just the two of us, could we not do that?
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:05.039
Is that not an option?
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:06.799
Just opt out of dinner that evening.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.079
Yeah, that's an option.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:19.359
So going into the trip this year, that's something that I've really been more purposeful about is spending time actually enjoying the vacation.
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.920
Because ultimately what would happen is I'd come back and I felt like I needed a vacation for my vacation.
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:30.559
Because I spent the entire trip doing things for other people that I normally just do for myself at home.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.000
That's not vacation.
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:32.799
Right.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.200
No.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.519
So I'm happy to say this year my husband and I have a couple's massage scheduled.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.279
We're gonna go out to dinner one night.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:46.960
So we're taking some time to really enjoy and spend our vacation doing the things that we want to do instead of constantly focusing on catering to everyone else.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.000
That's fantastic.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:56.319
I think just to wrap our topic, Amanda, I'd love to hear some closing thoughts from you.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.759
I know you have a daughter.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:12.240
So as you watch her growing and you look to the next generation of women leaders, what are some of the things that you hope that they never have to face or things that they have to unlearn?
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.920
I think about this all the time.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.519
My daughter is like my shadow and my little mini me.
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:20.880
And it's interesting to hear her talk about what she wants out of life.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:25.200
She's actually in the stage of being very anti-marriage and anti-children.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.200
And she's very vocal about it.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:34.880
But from her perspective, when she talks about it, she talks about I don't want to have to be cleaning up after somebody my whole life.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.319
I don't want to be living in a house that's I don't have control over.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.160
She wants to have control over her environment.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.039
She's 13.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.480
This may change in time, right?
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:53.519
I would love to get to the point where women are not so overburdened with the mental load of the household.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:07.519
I think the reason why women just carry this like simmering rage at all times is it just feels very unfair all the time to go from your nine to five and then immediately hop into basically another full-time job.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:18.480
I also have two sons, and I'm very aware that I do not want to raise them in those same gender norms that have existed to this point in time.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.079
And I call it out by name.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:31.279
My daughter, I already see her taking on more of the domestic labor with me because she sees me running around and her brothers are messy and they just don't care.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.920
Yesterday I turned to my middle son who is 11 now, and I said, I will not raise a son who thinks it's not his responsibility to take care of the household.
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.400
You will know how to cook, you will know how to clean, you will know how to take care of other people.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.880
And she just looked at me with big wide eyes.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:32:00.480
But I think it's important for them to hear it seems like it's not that big of a deal, but it truly is because if that becomes a norm and that's how they understand that gender relations work, then these patterns are just going to keep persisting.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:11.680
So it's, I think, important to set good examples for our daughters, but it's also important to set good examples for the men that we are raising now to be better partners in this thing called life.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:12.240
Amen.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.920
Oh, I love that so much.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:21.279
The whole purpose of this platform is so we can learn from each other and grow together and do better and do differently.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:30.319
And so if you have a topic that you'd like us to talk about, or if you have a shrinking behavior you'd like us to share, feel free to reach out on Instagram.
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:32.640
We are at NDA underscore pod.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.960
We would love, love, love to hear from you.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.640
And also make sure to subscribe so you never miss a future episode.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.279
We are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, anywhere you get your podcasts.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.559
We would love for you to subscribe.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.119
Yes.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:53.519
And Amanda Duncan, if you could just maybe tell our listeners where they can find you and find more information about your business.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.079
Sure.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:59.920
You can find Chiara Consultants on LinkedIn and Facebook and at Chiara Consultants.com.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.160
It's C-H-I-A-R-A.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.000
That means light in Italian, by the way, for anybody who is wondering.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:12.000
We are a strategic operations and fractional chief of staff consulting organization.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.559
So if your organization could benefit from that, something like that, please reach out.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:17.119
Love it.
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:18.880
And just some parting thoughts.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.519
I know I would like to leave our listeners today.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:27.200
And I think all of us want to make sure you understand that the problem is not that you're failing.
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:41.440
It's it's more likely that you become so freaking good at carrying everything for everyone around you that now naturally and quietly you're trying to hold on to more than any human being could carry.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:49.839
So, can you, as an individual, change this entire system overnight that the societal system and workplace systems that we talked about?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:50.240
No.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:56.160
But what you can do is start asking better questions in your own system that you're a part of.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:00.960
And those three questions, what is mine, what is shared, and what is not mine?
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:09.360
Because the goal that we want you walking out of today's episode with is we don't want you to become a woman who carries more.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:18.559
We want you to become a woman who knows what is actually hers to carry and is teaching the young women behind you who are watching you to do the same.
