Mystery Wire with George Knapp - Robert Bigelow with Brandon Fugal, Skinwalker Ranch - Episode 4 - Sept 2026

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I guess we could call this a meeting of the
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minds or a meeting of the moguls. You know, this year, 2026,
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is a big anniversary year for the ranch. It's 20
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years ago, 30 years ago, you bought it. 10 years ago,
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you bought it. Have you guys spoken to each other
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since that exchange was made?
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So we've actually bought the farm. Is that what you're
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trying to tell us?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Have you, have you spoken to each other since then?
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So we, we, we had, I'll take that first. We
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had some great dialogue. I had the privilege of flying
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down here to Las Vegas to meet with Robert and
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to see his incredible aerospace facility out in North Las Vegas. And,
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and have the discussion around the potential acquisition of the ranch.
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We continued that dialogue, turned it over to our attorneys
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and ended up concluding that. And, and I think within
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a year or two, we hosted a gathering in Salt
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Lake city with many of the former members of the
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NIDS and BAS team, as well as my team of
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scientists and, uh, engineers and, um, And really used that
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as a foundation to kick off our stewardship and investigation
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of Skinwalker Ranch with the Bigelow team's advice and guidance.
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But since that time, we've both been crazy busy going
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different directions. And this is without question, George, I think
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a most historic moment for these topics that not just
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a discussion about Skinwalker Ranch and the most scientifically studied
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paranormal hotspot on the planet, but I think this is
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historic in that we're touching on topics that I believe
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people should be paying more attention to than ever.
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I agree, yeah. So last night we were deep diving
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into consciousness.
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Well, we're going to go there. We're going to, I think,
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maybe break some news today about future of the ranch
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and the investigations of this nature, but I want to
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do review some of what, uh, the water that's gone
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under the paranormal bridge, so to speak. And, uh, you know,
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30 years ago, uh, the investigation, scientific investigation began. It
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is the most intensely studied paranormal UFO hotspot in the
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world because the investigation has been ongoing. Uh, but I'm
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wondering if we can get into, you know, sort of
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what we learned, uh, Robert, when you bought the property, uh,
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in 1996. Did you have a game plan? I mean,
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it wasn't exactly a blueprint for studying a place like that,
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but you, you go there because it had a lot
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of UFO activity in the Uinta Basin and on the
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ranch and some mutilations. You didn't know all the other
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stuff that was going on there though, did you?
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We had, uh, we had operated that ranch prior to the, uh,
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to the contract with DIA, uh, for quite a few years.
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So we knew, um, back in, I think we contracted
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for that ranch with Terry Sherman in 95, was it? 96.
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About 95. The DIA contract started in September of 2008.
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So we already had a history. And it wasn't just
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focused on what was happening on that ranch. It was
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other ranches, sister ranches, contiguous to it and outside of
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that for some distance, And we particularly established a strong
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rapport with BIA and the Deputy Sheriff's Department. And we
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gained enormous information by what they saw, what they chased,
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what happened in their homes, what happened in broad daylight
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in their front yards. I never will forget a story
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by one BIA fellow and he said that his wife
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was hysterical. She was out in the yard with her
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little boy, and this thing jumped over this alien creature,
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jumped over a cyclone fence like it was nothing, way
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over it, and got within, jumped on top of the
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roof of their house, as I recall, and she went hysterical,
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and then it leaped enormous distances like maybe 50 feet
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at a time, and disappeared. So her husband drove to
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the house very quickly and checked everything out and so forth.
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But that anomalous kind of story and creature, which is unbelievable,
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was part of the data that we had and the
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number of, testimonies, reliable witnesses that we had in addition
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to the sheriff people and the BIA people themselves, not
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just their family members. So we got into some really
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interesting things that were amazing. And I think you guys
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covered a couple of the stories in the Skinwalker where
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the motel, the creature that was trying to climb over
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a pony wall, and the dog was barking in an
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A-frame office at the motel. And there was a security
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guard there, and he walked down and called for assistance.
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And as the sheriff's people got there, then they wound
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up chasing this thing, right? And it was going so fast,
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they had a hard time keeping up with it before
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it dove into a bunch of houses on the res,
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you know, that is that the story I believe it was.
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When you're first there, you go, you fly down to
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see the rancher, you, you meet with them. He tells
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you some of what had been going on there. Then you,
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you buy the property and you, your guys go in
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and you start learning all this strange range of extraordinary events.
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You didn't know all that stuff was happening when you,
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when you bought the place, right?
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No, because there, we, you know, the volume of stories
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and personal encounters were far greater than the initial contact
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would tell you with somebody, you know, as an owner.
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And we learned more and more on our own. And
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then we hired him as a manager for a year
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and a half or two years. He was the manager there.
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So he was the guy that already had the history.
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When we started the OSAP program, then it became much
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more elevated with far more staff, up to 50 people
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is what we had. But we encountered, we went, people
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went to Brazil and outside of the United States and
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other places in South America. And so we were looking
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at other hotspots around the United States besides Skinwalker. We
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found a number of other locations that were very active also.
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In 96, in this building, The NID Science Advisory Board
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has its first meeting. And then a couple months later,
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you're by the ranch. But nobody had a game plan.
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You didn't know exactly the vast range of different experiences
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and phenomena that were there, just that it was a
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UFO hotspot and some mutilations. But there is no blueprint
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for what you're going to do. Did you know what
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the approach was going to be when you went in?
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You're winging it for a particular site. You know what the...
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If you research a lot about the phenomena and the
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subject matter, you're aware of all of the engagements nationwide
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and maybe globally. A lot of them. Not all of them,
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but a lot of them. So it's not as though
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you're going in blind, totally blind, but you don't know, obviously,
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what a single location is going to produce. You don't
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realize that you just walked into another dimensional area that
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is active and vibrant and is really dynamic in the
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diversity of activities that are going to be exhibited to
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you or that are going to involve you. And they're
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not always, there's no warning for what most of this happens.
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There's no, and a lot of things aren't repeated the
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same way twice. They're unique. A lot of them are unique.
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The draining of the batteries, and yeah, that happens. There
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are things like that that are regular. But other more
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dynamic things are kind of custom, depending upon really what
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you're doing. And some version of interfering with what you're
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doing is going to occur. And then it has, over
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the years, the interference has become much more serious as
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time gone by. There's tremendous liability concerns. And it's become
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something that the risk of a living laboratory has become
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far than any kind of normal laboratory that ever exists.
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It's the most unique kind of laboratory that ever exists
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in any kind of building anywhere on the planet. Even
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though we've had materializations of things in our aerospace plant,
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it doesn't hold a candle to the Skinwalker Ranch.
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We'll get into some of that and into your decision
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to sell the property. Brandon, you didn't believe any of
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this stuff. Colm Kelleher and I wrote a book in 2005.
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I recall the reaction from a lot of the public
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is we made it up or Robert Bigelow made it
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up because he wanted to build a paranormal hotel on
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there and make a bunch of money, which was, of course,
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ridiculous and never an idea. You had an idea when
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you bought it.
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You didn't believe it.
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You were a skeptic. And you thought, gosh, this is
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a really beautiful ranch. Maybe a great place for Boy Scouts, right?
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Exactly.
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At the time, I was on the board of the
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National Parks Council of the Boy Scouts of America. And
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it was an Eagle Scout. And I saw this property
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as a beautiful opportunity and location for the scouting program
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and to inspire the next generations.
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But I wanted to satisfy.
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my curiosity and to be able to, through the scientific
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method and through third-party experts, confirm that there really wasn't
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anything unusual happening on Skinwalker Ranch. And so I did
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indeed buy it as a skeptic with that in mind.
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And for the first six months, with the exception of
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some really strange images that were captured by my drone
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surveyor and security, which I thought could just as well
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be Lockheed skunk works or some other classified program testing
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within the, the airspace. I really wasn't convinced that there
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was anything truly unusual happening on the property. Every time
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I visited on a monthly basis, those first six months, uh,
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it was a peaceful, pristine, very diverse landscape. Uh, and
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I saw it as, as potentially a, a scouting retreat.
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Can you imagine? Can you imagine having your paranormal hotel
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and letting people come in and you having Boy Scout
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camps there?
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Yeah. In retrospect, it's hilarious.
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It's pretty humorous to think that that's where my mindset was.
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But I had grown quite skeptical of these topics, even
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matters of faith. And I felt like everything could be
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explained by critical thinking. And scientific rigor and applying the
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scientific method. And I was wrong. I ultimately not only
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moved from being a skeptic to an experiencer, but have
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now amassed a data set that is compelling. There is
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nothing like it on the planet. And I would say,
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if not for the courage and the foundational efforts of
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Robert Bigelow and his team, we wouldn't be where we're
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at today. And I think our understanding of our place
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in the universe, we'd be in a much different position.
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Robert had sent me a text a couple of days
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ago and said, you think Brandon Fugel would come on
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our podcast? I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure I know
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the answer to that. I text Brandon. He's available five
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minutes later for a phone call. and agrees, I'm ready
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to jump on the plane and come on down here
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at any point. I would imagine, even though you guys
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haven't talked a lot in the years since the property
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was sold, there's some mutual respect there because you both
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view it as you're stewards.
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Of that property.
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You're not owning it. You're not exploiting it. You're stewards
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and kind of keeping an eye on it and keeping
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it out of harming other people. Right.
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Absolutely.
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Well, Robert has a legacy. This is part of his
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extraordinary legacy. And we've tried to do our best through
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our stewardship to carry that forward and conduct a scientific
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investigation that will hopefully yield insights and inform the public
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relative to the reality of these things that were talked
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about in your book decades ago. And so to sit
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here today, I mean, this is a historic moment. It
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It's often said we stand on the shoulders of giants.
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I don't know any private individual on the planet that
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has had more courage and has invested more in his
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tenure than Robert Bigelow. And so to have the opportunity
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to come together in your headquarters and to be able
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to have a collaborative discussion and compare notes after a
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decade is.
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The feeling is mutual because what Brandon has undertaken is
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extraordinary exposure to the general public that we never did.
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And so the general public has been elevated in their knowledge,
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thanks to him and the entire show, about things that
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go bump in the night, you know, and about consciousness
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and things that are abnormal. So where else on TV
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are you going to find that kind of information? So
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he's done all that on his own.
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When NIDS was first there, it's like the cone of
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silence drops over the ranch. There were a couple of
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newspaper stories that were out, and I think maybe one
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or two of them had caught your attention before you
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bought the property. But when you send your guys on
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there and they start seeing this stuff for themselves, holy cow,
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this is true, you kept it quiet. A, for the
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integrity of what the investigation was, and B, You don't
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want to attract a lot of attention.
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Right.
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People be overrun with it.
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Right. I know that there has been criticism. Brandon, when
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I first met some of your team members before the
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show was on the air, they said, well, Bigelow, he
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won't share any of the data. And I don't know
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what the data would be because nothing ever replicates. Nothing
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ever duplicates the same way. You have a ton of
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experiences and both of you, your approach has been poke
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the bear and see what happens.
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But.
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You couldn't have published a scientific paper if you wanted to, right,
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back then?
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We weren't trying to stimulate the performances exactly. We were
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kind of, if there were cattle mutilation, I bought Terry
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Sherman's group of cows, and the poor things were bait
255
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for cattle mutilation. So we could We can do a
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00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.659
necropsy on the animal and understand and maybe somehow learn
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a lot more about how these occur. Because they have
258
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happened in every single state in the United States, thousands
259
00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:43.009
of these cases. They're the most successful crime that has
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ever happened. So we did things like that. We set
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00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:53.350
up games in the old homesteads to be acted on.
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So we did those kinds of things to see, I'm
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not saying to try to establish a relationship exactly, but
264
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to try to get a feel for something that we
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could engage and get a response back in some kind
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of way. And the most serious thing would be the
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mutilation of an animal. That was the most serious thing.
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And so... We had our security people there to keep
269
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people out. And that was kind of our thinking.
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You had mutilations of cows. You had mutilations of dogs
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that were vaporized when the rancher was there. Terry did. Yeah,
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00:17:39.390 --> 00:17:41.849
Terry did. There were cats that were mutilated. There were
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horses that were attacked. There were a lot of animals
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that were hurt in those days, right?
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There were. Then there were also... Animals that were just
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00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:59.109
put into panic because of the balls of light. The
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00:17:59.190 --> 00:18:03.710
balls that were red, as I recall, caused a mental
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00:18:03.750 --> 00:18:09.089
disturbance in the animals, horses or cows, and put them
279
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into a panic. And I think there was a report
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where one of those was witnessed over someone's head. It
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00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.279
might have been Terry that witnessed it or maybe one
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00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.970
of our people did. And the person, the human was
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00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:27.250
unaware that the ball was over the head, over his head.
284
00:18:30.569 --> 00:18:35.630
Terry had an encounter with a teal-colored ball, a turquoise-colored
285
00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:42.500
ball that was transparent. And inside was a kind of
286
00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:49.480
a liquidified energy form that was causing bolts of light
287
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.910
flashing off inside the ball. There was a tremendous amount
288
00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:57.609
of energy in that. But it was communicating to his consciousness.
289
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And it was telling him, if you take another step further,
290
00:19:00.789 --> 00:19:03.990
and he was about 12 feet away, you're going to die.
291
00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:08.490
And he was so convinced, he backed off immediately. And
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we confirmed that with another person on another ranch contiguous
293
00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:19.000
to the west of the Skinwalker. And the same thing
294
00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:22.339
encountered when the the ball was climbing, was going up
295
00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.440
a hill, and the person was following it. Before they
296
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.420
got to the top of the hill, the ball stopped
297
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:30.839
and convinced the person they were going to die if
298
00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:36.650
they kept following it. So that kind of interaction, consciousness interaction,
299
00:19:36.690 --> 00:19:41.529
besides the physicality of being able to have locomotion that
300
00:19:41.569 --> 00:19:43.869
can dance around branches of trees and not hit a
301
00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:48.750
single one through a whole group of trees is very interesting.
302
00:19:48.769 --> 00:19:51.779
You know, the only thing consistent about the ranch is
303
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.250
that it's always inconsistent that whatever has happened before is
304
00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:57.930
it changes you know the kinds of things that were
305
00:19:57.990 --> 00:20:01.190
happening during the nids era and during all sap creatures
306
00:20:01.910 --> 00:20:06.259
trickster stuff mutilations of all kinds of animals. You had
307
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.759
some of that, but it's not the same. You don't
308
00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:10.339
see a lot of creatures there anymore, do you?
309
00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:11.519
It's transient.
310
00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:17.859
I mean, we've had some disturbing animal deaths. We've had
311
00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:22.599
some injuries that have been caught on camera, sometimes in
312
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:27.970
tandem with the experimental activities that are occurring on the ranch.
313
00:20:28.890 --> 00:20:33.720
One of the most prominent episodes that occurred recently on
314
00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:39.000
camera when we brought the television docu-series effort onto the
315
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:46.420
property was this perfectly healthy calf that was found dead
316
00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:50.809
just south of Homestead 1 or the ranch house. And
317
00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:57.849
immediately as the men went to go investigate it on camera,
318
00:20:59.609 --> 00:21:03.789
not only were the trifield meters going crazy with elevated
319
00:21:04.289 --> 00:21:09.029
microwave gamma radiation, you know, other, other readings that were
320
00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:11.869
there that were showing up that were really strange, but
321
00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:18.519
the smartphones were malfunctioning. Uh, you had one individual, Thomas Winterton,
322
00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:22.460
who had a Samsung device and you had Caleb bench,
323
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.279
who is, you know, one of our security professionals who
324
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:29.509
is also active law enforcement. He, he is, um, working
325
00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:33.509
with the sheriff's office at the same time as providing
326
00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:38.730
security services at the ranch. Both of these individuals had
327
00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:44.039
their phones simultaneously being manipulated before their very eyes in
328
00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:50.700
tandem with investigating this suspicious death of this perfectly healthy calf.
329
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.579
And upon pulling up the surveillance footage of that area
330
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.519
of the ranch to find out what happened, Was there
331
00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:04.420
something that killed it? Was there a perpetrator involved? Exactly
332
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.299
what time did that animal go down? Interestingly, right around
333
00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:14.269
the time that the animal went down, there was captured
334
00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:22.490
an object, a UFO, right above the tree line, simultaneous
335
00:22:22.509 --> 00:22:23.170
with that event.
336
00:22:23.990 --> 00:22:25.089
And then.
337
00:22:26.609 --> 00:22:31.329
That caused us to take a step back and view
338
00:22:31.369 --> 00:22:35.569
the events that were unfolding on the ranch quite differently.
339
00:22:35.650 --> 00:22:39.289
I mean, this was serious. And to see data, to
340
00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:43.930
see the equipment malfunction, the elevated readings that were coming
341
00:22:43.990 --> 00:22:48.990
off of the instruments, and also to see something unidentified
342
00:22:49.589 --> 00:22:52.930
that entered the space upon review of the surveillance footage,
343
00:22:53.750 --> 00:22:58.619
that That changed the game significantly, and it caused us
344
00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:01.599
to double down on trying to understand the nature of
345
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:02.279
what is happening.
346
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:03.099
Because I think.
347
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.289
As much as it's unpredictable, the one thing that we
348
00:23:07.329 --> 00:23:10.250
have been able to see emerge as far as patterns
349
00:23:10.309 --> 00:23:18.470
in the data are electromagnetic anomalies, rapid battery depletion, acute
350
00:23:18.509 --> 00:23:27.079
medical episodes, corresponding many times with unidentified aerial phenomena. They
351
00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:31.259
say that correlation does not mean causation. You always have
352
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.519
to keep that in mind. But when you have enough
353
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:40.990
correlations and data points, it forms a pattern of behavior
354
00:23:41.829 --> 00:23:44.069
and activity that is undeniable.
355
00:23:44.369 --> 00:23:47.869
Has anybody been able to reverse engineer how you would
356
00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:50.829
do the stuff that is done to equipment at the ranch? Like,
357
00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:55.930
what system drains batteries just... Out of nowhere. What system
358
00:23:55.970 --> 00:24:00.390
knocks out cameras and affects phones? Wouldn't it be handy
359
00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:02.210
to have a device that would do that all the time?
360
00:24:02.250 --> 00:24:04.369
But it's happened since the beginning, right?
361
00:24:04.630 --> 00:24:06.210
To manipulate closed systems?
362
00:24:06.349 --> 00:24:06.569
Yeah.
363
00:24:07.809 --> 00:24:08.730
Instantaneously.
364
00:24:08.910 --> 00:24:13.829
I mean, we're talking about completely dismantling or reprogramming closed
365
00:24:13.869 --> 00:24:15.490
systems on that property.
366
00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:19.869
How do you shut down 10 out of 10 missiles
367
00:24:20.910 --> 00:24:26.130
in a nuclear pod Each individual one is, each missile
368
00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:32.119
is individually wired and programmed. And all the programs are
369
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.500
changed so that you can't launch. Or you get within
370
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.549
one step of launching in the case of the Russian ones.
371
00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:48.049
So you're asking a question that, you know, is beyond.
372
00:24:48.829 --> 00:24:50.740
It's as far beyond us as.
373
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:58.440
Trying to understand them, the others, and their machines and
374
00:24:58.480 --> 00:24:59.039
how they work.
375
00:25:00.380 --> 00:25:05.680
Robert's identifying something very interesting, and that is the fact
376
00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:11.210
that what has been reported on military installations that has
377
00:25:11.269 --> 00:25:17.390
national security implications has also been documented on Skinwalker Ranch
378
00:25:18.089 --> 00:25:21.849
in a private sector setting. I think that's interesting.
379
00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:26.720
You know, the previous owners, the Myers, who had the
380
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.720
property for a long time, they say nothing ever happened
381
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:33.779
while they were there. Nothing. But as they passed the
382
00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:37.240
property along, as I recall from our book, they put
383
00:25:37.299 --> 00:25:40.440
sort of a condition on the deed that you can't
384
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:43.319
do any digging without letting us know in advance to
385
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:44.299
the new owner.
386
00:25:44.900 --> 00:25:47.339
Well, you're wrong, George. I'm going to cut you off.
387
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.380
Their heir, Garth Myers, who sold the property to the Shermans,
388
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.380
claimed that there was no activity. Right.
389
00:25:54.509 --> 00:25:56.670
When confronted by Dr.
390
00:25:56.710 --> 00:26:01.039
Frank Salisbury and others that were following up on the investigation.
391
00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:04.839
When it comes to Kenneth and Edith Myers and the
392
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:10.519
documentary history, we have retired law enforcement that has gone
393
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:15.000
on record with the fact that Kenneth and Edith Myers
394
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:19.119
called on law enforcement on a regular basis to respond
395
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:25.329
to activity, cattle mutilation activity, high strangeness, and even UFO
396
00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:30.670
activity on Skinwalker Ranch going back decades prior to their
397
00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:36.140
death and it being passed from Garth Myers to the Shermans.
398
00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:42.819
And I have some documentation showing that in an exchange
399
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:55.150
between Gwen Sherman and Garth Myers shortly after their acquisition
400
00:26:55.430 --> 00:27:01.009
and them being terrorized, when she confronted Garth and said,
401
00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:09.730
why didn't you tell us about this? Garth Myers apparently
402
00:27:09.789 --> 00:27:15.299
responded saying, I thought it would leave you alone. I've
403
00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:16.700
seen this documented.
404
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.079
So, I was told by Terry, and I think we
405
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.210
later confirmed it, that there was no restrictive covenant on
406
00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:28.170
the land, essentially. And Terry didn't put it that way.
407
00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:32.690
Terry just said he had an agreement with Myers that
408
00:27:32.730 --> 00:27:36.549
he would not do any excavation without Myers being there.
409
00:27:37.390 --> 00:27:40.480
And there was a time when Terry wanted to lay
410
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:44.250
down a pipe, and Myers came out to check it.
411
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:47.720
I think it was Myers that did. Somebody came out
412
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:50.700
to verify where he was going and gave approval. But
413
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.940
it wasn't a restrictive covenant that ran with the deed,
414
00:27:53.259 --> 00:27:54.920
ran with the land.
415
00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:57.269
It was more, it was an advisory.
416
00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:58.569
I see.
417
00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:00.829
And I was told.
418
00:28:02.650 --> 00:28:07.769
That that was a cautionary aspect associated with the history
419
00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:11.359
of the ranch. Didn't think anything of it until we
420
00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:12.859
started disturbing the earth.
421
00:28:14.299 --> 00:28:14.940
And when.
422
00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:19.819
Thomas Winterton, my superintendent and ranch manager, who's been involved
423
00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:24.220
since April of 2016, since the month I purchased the property,
424
00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:29.680
when he started to do work to improve the ranch
425
00:28:31.940 --> 00:28:38.839
and to move the earth, to create roadways and to
426
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:43.799
make certain improvements, he ended up in the hospital and
427
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:44.519
almost died.
428
00:28:45.390 --> 00:28:46.410
And he was warned.
429
00:28:46.509 --> 00:28:52.109
He was warned telepathically to cease his activity or else.
430
00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:56.589
And he, he ignored it and proceeded and ended up
431
00:28:56.670 --> 00:29:01.329
in the hospital, almost lost his life. The doctors still
432
00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:05.210
to this day can't explain what exactly happened to him
433
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:10.119
other than the back of his skull was irradiated and, uh,
434
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:15.920
his scalp separated from his skull and, uh, And it
435
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:21.119
was a really disturbing acute medical episode that now combined
436
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:26.150
with a library of other episodes that have occurred. I
437
00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:29.690
think we talked about this last night, Robert.
438
00:29:31.009 --> 00:29:31.829
It's escalated.
439
00:29:32.349 --> 00:29:40.930
The activity on the ranch and the damage. the harm
440
00:29:41.410 --> 00:29:49.420
associated with conducting aggressive experimental activity, it's sobering.
441
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:51.680
And George, you were there last night as a witness
442
00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:53.359
to all of our conversation.
443
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.329
There's a reason why I have everyone sign a liability waiver.
444
00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:05.589
and acknowledge the risks associated with entering the property. And
445
00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:10.289
it's not just theatrical. It's not just for drama. It's
446
00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:11.079
dead serious.
447
00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:12.400
Absolutely.
448
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:17.079
There were risks to your employees eventually. We're going to
449
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.059
jump into hitchhikers, I guess. But the idea of attachments,
450
00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:23.119
it's been associated with ghost research for a long time,
451
00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:26.509
poltergeist kind of thing. I doubt that that was on
452
00:30:27.049 --> 00:30:31.039
your mind when you bought the ranch. but it started happening, right?
453
00:30:31.099 --> 00:30:33.160
I don't know at what point it started happening, but
454
00:30:33.380 --> 00:30:36.619
there's some very dramatic things to your staff. And we
455
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.420
can come back to some of what's happened while your
456
00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:42.269
stewardship is underway that, that had to affect whether you
457
00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:43.869
wanted to hang onto it or not, I would think.
458
00:30:46.029 --> 00:30:50.009
Well, we had, uh, I mentioned in one of the discussions,
459
00:30:50.069 --> 00:30:53.049
our episodes that we had events happen to two of
460
00:30:53.109 --> 00:30:58.809
our security people. Um, and, uh, Two of those events
461
00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:03.640
were in Las Vegas because of the hitchhiker effect. And
462
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:09.920
one was on the ranch. We didn't get into the
463
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:19.869
levels of harmful interaction that Brandon et al. have suffered.
464
00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:26.109
We didn't get into that kind of level. I even.
465
00:31:28.390 --> 00:31:32.250
With that prohibition or that agreement with Terry and Myers
466
00:31:32.289 --> 00:31:35.470
about not digging on the ranch, my thoughts went to
467
00:31:35.509 --> 00:31:39.769
more nefarious kinds of things to do with humans as
468
00:31:39.829 --> 00:31:47.859
to why are you so fussy about digging anywhere? Is
469
00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:53.140
there graves that we don't know about? And graves of who?
470
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.539
We didn't know of any Indian burial grounds there at all.
471
00:31:58.730 --> 00:32:02.069
So is it something that the white man has done?
472
00:32:02.829 --> 00:32:07.960
Who is possibly buried there? So my thoughts didn't go
473
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:11.380
to ET. It first went to human beings as to
474
00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:16.039
nefarious activities that they may have been involved in. And
475
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.690
I was very curious about that, that Terry would receive
476
00:32:20.289 --> 00:32:24.569
a prohibition of digging anywhere without personally somebody being there
477
00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:25.069
to watch.
478
00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:29.390
Like maybe there's murder victims buried there or aborted fetuses
479
00:32:29.619 --> 00:32:32.619
or some kind of waste material, some horrible waste material.
480
00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:34.079
You've got it. Yes, absolutely.
481
00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:37.660
Did you do experiments in digging in the ground to
482
00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:39.579
purposely stir something up and see what happens?
483
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:43.839
I briefly did, and then I stopped because I just
484
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:47.220
didn't feel right about it. I took a caterpillar I
485
00:32:47.259 --> 00:32:50.140
had from another ranch, and we trucked it down there,
486
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:56.019
and we did some excavation with that. And then we
487
00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:58.180
didn't find anything. We only went down maybe four feet
488
00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:01.180
in an area. And then we filled it all back,
489
00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:05.559
filled it all in and didn't find anything. And I thought, well,
490
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.799
you know, a 480 acre ranch is what we were
491
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:13.730
told it was. I don't know, 500, I don't know
492
00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:14.690
what the hell the size is.
493
00:33:14.769 --> 00:33:18.369
I think it's 512. And part of that is because we,
494
00:33:19.130 --> 00:33:23.460
we control the road. The private road that leads into
495
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:27.740
the ranch is actually owned by Adam Antium Real Estate
496
00:33:28.420 --> 00:33:30.400
by the entity. And one of the things that we
497
00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:33.880
did right off the bat within the first few months
498
00:33:33.940 --> 00:33:44.329
of my stewardship was to formalize the boundary lines of
499
00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:47.130
the property and to be able to fully secure it.
500
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:55.579
escalated significantly after I had my close encounter experience. After
501
00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:04.029
October 14th of 2016, we proceeded aggressively to address how
502
00:34:04.269 --> 00:34:09.929
to install the right security measures, a full military-grade gated entrance,
503
00:34:10.030 --> 00:34:14.159
a guard shack, you know, a gate, a gate house
504
00:34:14.260 --> 00:34:16.429
there at the entrance to check people in as a,
505
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:19.920
as a formal checkpoint and then started adding surveillance assets
506
00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:23.719
encompassing the entire ranch to be able to document the
507
00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:27.400
nature of the activity and also be able to keep
508
00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:33.059
people out, out of harm's way and also keep people
509
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:39.320
from potentially compromising the sensitivity of a very real scientific investigation.
510
00:34:39.739 --> 00:34:40.320
It was ongoing.
511
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:44.929
That's, that's one thing that, uh, has been an ongoing
512
00:34:44.989 --> 00:34:52.650
surprise is how much visitor activity impacts the level of
513
00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:59.110
interaction with the phenomena. Certain visitors, depending on what they
514
00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:02.250
bring as far as intent to the property, will trigger
515
00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:08.489
sometimes to very negative results.
516
00:35:08.550 --> 00:35:13.559
There was a temptation I had one time to... to
517
00:35:13.699 --> 00:35:17.320
go ahead and dig more. But when you're dealing with
518
00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:21.590
that size of a piece of ground, 500 plus acres,
519
00:35:24.090 --> 00:35:26.730
where do you start? Where are you going to end?
520
00:35:26.750 --> 00:35:30.809
Because that's huge, right? So the odds are you're just
521
00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:33.289
not going to point to some area and dig and
522
00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:34.110
come up with things.
523
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:36.170
Did you ever have a reaction to digging in the
524
00:35:36.190 --> 00:35:37.809
ground on purpose?
525
00:35:38.869 --> 00:35:41.090
No, I didn't. And it was so brief. And what
526
00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:42.800
we did was, I think we did it in one day.
527
00:35:43.369 --> 00:35:47.000
And we just excavated, used the cat, dug up quite
528
00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:53.099
an area that maybe was, you know, a quarter of
529
00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:58.070
the size of a football field. And then back, you know,
530
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:02.190
we put all the material back into the ground and
531
00:36:02.329 --> 00:36:06.429
drove over it and compacted it. But I had hired
532
00:36:06.449 --> 00:36:13.739
a world-class remote viewer named Joel McMoneagle. on two occasions
533
00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:17.300
through remote view of the ranch. And his results were
534
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.659
tempting for me to do certain things to explore, but
535
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:22.719
I never did them.
536
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.530
He identified places where that, hey, you should look here
537
00:36:25.610 --> 00:36:26.389
or something bad?
538
00:36:26.989 --> 00:36:29.550
It was a blinded study. I knew about it, so
539
00:36:29.570 --> 00:36:31.670
it wasn't double blind, but he was blinded. So he
540
00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:36.809
had a longitude-latitude instructions in a sealed envelope that he
541
00:36:36.849 --> 00:36:39.690
couldn't open. But the sealed envelope was on the desk,
542
00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:43.159
and that's all he had to go on. And he
543
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.960
drew and described, he nailed the ranch both times. I
544
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:52.599
did it twice to reinforce the potential accuracy. And what
545
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:56.610
was really interesting was after he did it all, and
546
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:02.550
I said, you know, what else are you feeling? Because
547
00:37:02.610 --> 00:37:07.409
remote viewing isn't just about geography. What else do you sense?
548
00:37:07.949 --> 00:37:10.969
And he says, there's a lot of activity going on underground,
549
00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:14.960
a lot of it. I see things in motions, machinery,
550
00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:19.519
beings of some kind, don't know exactly. But there's a
551
00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:22.460
lot going on. And this was in the meadow area,
552
00:37:23.059 --> 00:37:28.239
not under the mesa, the ridgeline, the mesa. But it
553
00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:32.590
was in the meadow areas, you know. And so I
554
00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:35.829
briefly thought for maybe 10 minutes on should I go
555
00:37:35.869 --> 00:37:38.409
do that? And I said, no, I'm not going to
556
00:37:38.429 --> 00:37:42.909
really go and disturb that. Whatever it is, I'm going
557
00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:43.550
to leave it alone.
558
00:37:44.130 --> 00:37:47.380
This rings true for you and your team, right? Things underground.
559
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.440
I mean, you've been doing some digging. You've had some
560
00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:53.380
reactions to even little drill bits and things like that
561
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.019
and some kind of a response from whatever it is
562
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:56.460
that's there.
563
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:02.539
Yeah, well, not only do we see the persistent signal
564
00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:06.409
that appears, the 1.6 gigahertz signal that seems to appear
565
00:38:07.050 --> 00:38:11.469
within the space when we are conducting some of these activities.
566
00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:17.929
But as we have probed the Mesa and conducted what
567
00:38:18.010 --> 00:38:21.389
I kind of characterize as more of a medical biopsy
568
00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:26.719
of the ranch in that area, we've seen some disturbing
569
00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:30.320
things play out. I mean, we had our caretaker ended
570
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:38.059
up having a cardiac episode simultaneous with drilling activity and
571
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:42.139
the signal appearing and had to be rushed off the property.
572
00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:46.619
We had to cease the activity. He was immediately evacuated
573
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.539
by Dragon, my security, and taken to the hospital. And
574
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:57.019
the attending physicians were very concerned.
575
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.519
They asked, what caused this? What were you doing? And
576
00:39:01.219 --> 00:39:04.239
he was out at the homesteads. So he was in
577
00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:06.639
a different part of the property.
578
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.119
He wasn't right there with the drilling activity. He was
579
00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:13.690
actually Part of a separate group that was monitoring whether
580
00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:16.619
something would change in the environment on the other side
581
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:20.679
of the ranch. Well, not only did something change, but
582
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:27.250
we had an acute medical episode that still leaves us baffled.
583
00:39:28.190 --> 00:39:29.969
Your caretaker was headed severe injury.
584
00:39:30.380 --> 00:39:30.699
As well.
585
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.119
I mean, almost took his life because of an accident
586
00:39:34.179 --> 00:39:36.960
involving a horse, but you can't really pin it for
587
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:40.360
sure on something unknown.
588
00:39:40.380 --> 00:39:43.500
So Gene Dietz was really our manager. Richard was kind
589
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.889
of long for the ride. He was her husband. Nice guy,
590
00:39:46.989 --> 00:39:47.309
kind of a.
591
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.480
Gnarly kind of guy, you know, and, and, uh, but
592
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:55.199
he was a good horseman and he was, had been
593
00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:58.570
out riding and Jean noticed the horse came back to
594
00:39:58.590 --> 00:40:01.530
the corral without him on it by itself, you know?
595
00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:05.429
So she drove out on the road and found his body,
596
00:40:05.489 --> 00:40:11.650
found him there laying down and he was, uh, he
597
00:40:11.690 --> 00:40:15.260
wasn't dead. He, he had been seriously injured and, um,
598
00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:20.510
his eyes, Jean told me, she said his eyes were
599
00:40:20.550 --> 00:40:23.889
changing color as she's talking to him. And he was
600
00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:29.489
mumbling something about others or other, whatever it was that
601
00:40:29.550 --> 00:40:35.230
he had encountered. And so she concluded that the horse
602
00:40:35.449 --> 00:40:39.940
had really panicked and had drug him some kind of
603
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.400
distance because his foot was still in the stirrup or
604
00:40:44.619 --> 00:40:47.139
had been in the stirrup, I guess, of the of
605
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:52.280
the horse, of the saddle, and seriously damaged his leg.
606
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:58.019
And there may be other physical kinds of injuries he suffered.
607
00:40:58.099 --> 00:41:01.809
I'm not privy to exactly what they were, or much
608
00:41:01.869 --> 00:41:06.570
less the cause of them. But that's essentially the essence
609
00:41:06.610 --> 00:41:09.710
of what he... And then he went into a coma.
610
00:41:09.730 --> 00:41:11.849
He was taken to a hospital, I think, in Salt Lake.
611
00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:15.219
He went into a coma for about four weeks, a
612
00:41:15.260 --> 00:41:19.590
number of weeks. And the doctors were asking her if
613
00:41:19.650 --> 00:41:22.469
she would approve them taking him off of life support.
614
00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:25.670
And she called me. She said, what should I do?
615
00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:30.639
I said, what do you have to lose by giving
616
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.059
it some more time, giving him another five days.
617
00:41:33.940 --> 00:41:34.340
Or a week?
618
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:39.559
Three days later, he comes out of it. And he
619
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:44.159
was mentally just fine. He walked with a serious limp
620
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.590
because he had had such an injury to his leg,
621
00:41:46.610 --> 00:41:51.519
so he always had a cane with him. And then
622
00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:56.239
she was the manager, though. But that's the story about
623
00:41:56.300 --> 00:41:57.400
Richard and the encounter.
624
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.300
I remember meeting Richard the first time on the ranch,
625
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.679
and we're sitting around under a tree and talking, and
626
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:06.730
he said something that struck me. One of the first visits,
627
00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:08.469
not my first one, but he said, you know, I
628
00:42:08.530 --> 00:42:10.510
feel really good here. He says, I can work from
629
00:42:10.550 --> 00:42:11.730
morning to end of the night.
630
00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:12.349
He was old.
631
00:42:12.769 --> 00:42:16.400
Well, I'm saying old now compared to me then. But,
632
00:42:17.019 --> 00:42:21.340
you know, he dug it. He felt electrified by the ranch.
633
00:42:21.659 --> 00:42:24.460
Whenever I was at that ranch, I slept like a log.
634
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:29.010
I had no interferences whatsoever. I felt really, really good.
635
00:42:29.809 --> 00:42:32.329
And I never had a problem at all. And we
636
00:42:32.349 --> 00:42:35.429
had government people there. One night, Colm and I were
637
00:42:35.489 --> 00:42:38.230
with this lady, Jessica. I think we talked about her
638
00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:43.469
in one of the interviews, CIA gal. And, boy, was
639
00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:46.409
she alive and worried one night. When we were out
640
00:42:46.489 --> 00:42:52.519
walking around, she was really super agitated. I'm just enjoying
641
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:56.079
the evening. I think this is really great. And then
642
00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:58.460
that's the time that Colm, he was, there were three
643
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:03.300
of us, and he saw that animal. Dino beaver.
644
00:43:03.630 --> 00:43:09.420
Yeah, very unusual animal walking by. But other people had
645
00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:12.659
all kinds of different reactions. I really slept great. I
646
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.760
was energized. I thought, boy, this is a great place.
647
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.800
It seems like whatever is there responds to what you
648
00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:22.630
bring to the party. I'm always trying to be respectful,
649
00:43:22.670 --> 00:43:24.690
get my head in the right place when I go there.
650
00:43:24.750 --> 00:43:29.079
And I'm just here to learn. And I have noticed
651
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:30.860
it seems to be a trend that over the years,
652
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.539
the badasses are the ones that have the most problems.
653
00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:36.809
People who are tough guys, they're strapping with guns, they're
654
00:43:37.150 --> 00:43:42.469
intelligent people, ex-military cops. I don't know. You find anything
655
00:43:42.489 --> 00:43:42.829
to that?
656
00:43:44.329 --> 00:43:45.429
Yeah.
657
00:43:46.230 --> 00:43:51.590
Whatever is at play at Skinwalker Ranch has the ability
658
00:43:51.730 --> 00:43:59.420
to immediately scan people. someone's consciousness and immediately discern their intent,
659
00:43:59.739 --> 00:44:04.440
even read their mind. And that's why we caution everyone
660
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.639
before entering that they need to prepare themselves spiritually. They
661
00:44:08.659 --> 00:44:12.230
need to enter with a spirit of humility and reverence
662
00:44:12.329 --> 00:44:16.789
because whatever we're dealing with is two steps ahead of
663
00:44:16.849 --> 00:44:22.889
us and can already sense and understand your intent and
664
00:44:22.969 --> 00:44:24.389
react to it negatively.
665
00:44:25.219 --> 00:44:25.800
If there is an.
666
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:33.119
Adversarial spirit or intention. My people just, I've never had
667
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:36.699
a negative experience when I've slept on the ranch, but
668
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:42.500
we've had countless others that have refused to ever come
669
00:44:42.579 --> 00:44:43.519
back to the ranch.
670
00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:45.800
It's unpredictable.
671
00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:49.579
You have some people that have the most terrifying nightmares
672
00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:54.840
when sleeping on the ranch and don't ever want to
673
00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:57.889
come back. And then you have others. I mean, I,
674
00:44:59.010 --> 00:45:02.869
as I recall, I mean that my, my first months
675
00:45:02.929 --> 00:45:07.849
of owning the property, I couldn't get over how peaceful
676
00:45:08.449 --> 00:45:12.170
and beautiful the property was every time I visited. And
677
00:45:12.210 --> 00:45:15.869
I thought, gosh, it's only a matter of time before we,
678
00:45:16.469 --> 00:45:20.849
we verify that there really isn't anything unusual happening here
679
00:45:20.909 --> 00:45:24.349
and that anything unusual happens can be actually attributed to
680
00:45:24.429 --> 00:45:29.889
some natural cause, either something within the geology or maybe
681
00:45:29.909 --> 00:45:31.269
it's the product of groupthink.
682
00:45:31.349 --> 00:45:33.559
It was a small river running through it.
683
00:45:34.409 --> 00:45:35.289
Dry Gulch Creek.
684
00:45:35.690 --> 00:45:38.909
That Dry Gulch Creek that cuts through the property, it
685
00:45:39.889 --> 00:45:40.239
is a.
686
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:41.860
Pretty prominent feature.
687
00:45:43.059 --> 00:45:47.760
And that's something that we actually investigated the last few years.
688
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:51.599
For the first time, we actually took instrumentation down there
689
00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:55.449
to probe the area, especially because of some of the
690
00:45:56.289 --> 00:46:01.090
history with, you know, the Sherman's dogs retreating down that way.
691
00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:05.090
We had the reports of large wolf-like creatures that would
692
00:46:05.690 --> 00:46:10.050
actually exit, you know, the area of the homesteads and
693
00:46:10.110 --> 00:46:14.030
go down toward the creek and were never seen again.
694
00:46:15.130 --> 00:46:17.210
And, of course, you know what.
695
00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:21.070
Happened when we went down to explore Dry Gulch Creek.
696
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:21.840
You found one.
697
00:46:22.420 --> 00:46:29.380
We found the carcass, the decomposing carcass of an unusually large.
698
00:46:30.619 --> 00:46:31.659
Wolf-like creature.
699
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:37.349
And the teeth, in particular, the jawbone, the teeth were very,
700
00:46:38.110 --> 00:46:41.190
very unusual. And we took samples, even though the guys
701
00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:46.070
were gagging. I mean, it was covered with maggots and
702
00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:48.730
decomposing there in the water, right on the edge of
703
00:46:48.769 --> 00:46:49.170
the creek.
704
00:46:50.190 --> 00:46:50.829
Thank goodness.
705
00:46:51.070 --> 00:46:53.750
I mean, they had the presence of mind to take
706
00:46:53.789 --> 00:46:56.179
a sample, to cut off a piece of its jaw
707
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:58.400
and to be able to bag it.
708
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:00.940
They had Ziploc bags.
709
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:06.500
With them and put it in a protective bag to.
710
00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:06.719
Have it analyzed.
711
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:09.650
And when we had our biologist, Ben Woodruff, analyze it,
712
00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:14.530
he was shocked to find out that the direct match,
713
00:47:15.110 --> 00:47:21.280
I mean, we're talking direct match to this jawbone, was
714
00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:24.639
an over 10,000-year-old extinct dire wolf.
715
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:30.550
And he was stunned. We were stunned.
716
00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:36.429
But what it did, George, is it actually added absolute
717
00:47:36.510 --> 00:47:45.050
validity to what many people believe to be fantastical accounts
718
00:47:45.130 --> 00:47:49.480
of large wolf-like creatures that were impervious to gunshots. You know,
719
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:54.639
the The history that you documented with the Shermans, a
720
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:59.539
lot of people understandably have dismissed. And they felt like
721
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:03.599
it was not only not credible, but that it just
722
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:10.409
sounded like just tall tales. Well, to actually recover biology
723
00:48:10.510 --> 00:48:16.710
on that property that points toward it being true is
724
00:48:17.030 --> 00:48:18.210
one of the many.
725
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:26.119
I think, validating and gratifying parts of our investigation. What
726
00:48:26.139 --> 00:48:28.519
did you think when you heard that? Did you hear
727
00:48:28.579 --> 00:48:31.500
about our recovery of that?
728
00:48:32.500 --> 00:48:34.000
Yeah, it's a shame you couldn't get all of the
729
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:35.239
teeth and make it a necklace.
730
00:48:36.739 --> 00:48:39.260
I don't know that anyone would dare wear that necklace.
731
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:44.829
Oh, somebody would, for sure. I'm just kidding. Well, let's talk.
732
00:48:44.670 --> 00:48:47.750
About what it is that's there, or a they that's there.
733
00:48:47.829 --> 00:48:50.840
I remember my very first visit Junior Hicks is there.
734
00:48:51.019 --> 00:48:55.579
He'd been chronicling strange activity in the basin for decades
735
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:56.300
by that point.
736
00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:57.099
Since 1950. Yeah.
737
00:48:57.219 --> 00:49:01.199
I'm looking up at the Ridge, the Mesa there. And
738
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:03.650
I said, boy, that's really beautiful. And Junior Hicks says, yeah,
739
00:49:03.670 --> 00:49:05.130
that's the path of the Skinwalker.
740
00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:05.969
And I go, what?
741
00:49:06.809 --> 00:49:07.630
Uh, Skinwalker?
742
00:49:07.710 --> 00:49:07.889
What?
743
00:49:08.050 --> 00:49:10.670
I had never heard the name before. It became the
744
00:49:10.710 --> 00:49:13.449
title for a series of articles that I wrote in 2002.
745
00:49:13.449 --> 00:49:16.510
And then Colm and I used it in the, book.
746
00:49:16.570 --> 00:49:19.760
And then, you know, it's your term now, but I'd
747
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:21.980
never heard of it. And I couldn't find any Native
748
00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:24.699
Americans when we're trying to write about it who were
749
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:27.460
willing to talk about it. But the story about the
750
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.840
curse that was put on the Utes by the Navajo,
751
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:35.039
that was shared with me by Junior. And, you know,
752
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.960
I'm sure that us sharing that story, it seemed quaint
753
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:41.989
to people who all gushed superstitious native lore. But that
754
00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:44.369
was kind of their umbrella term for a lot of
755
00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:47.730
weird stuff that they had seen on or around that property. Well,
756
00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:50.269
we've had Native Americans corroborate that as well.
757
00:49:50.309 --> 00:49:55.110
So as we've gone out to the community to verify
758
00:49:55.510 --> 00:49:59.590
the truth of these accounts and the history that you
759
00:49:59.630 --> 00:50:02.690
reported on that had been passed to you.
760
00:50:02.710 --> 00:50:05.010
It has been a surprising experience.
761
00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:14.019
To have so many witnesses and so many people corroborating that,
762
00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:15.440
that history.
763
00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:18.579
You look at the history and it's so much, so
764
00:50:18.619 --> 00:50:20.659
many of the things that, well, we call them the Gormans,
765
00:50:20.739 --> 00:50:23.670
but which the, the ranch family had reported to you and,
766
00:50:23.829 --> 00:50:28.789
and reported to column and the team, it was almost humorous, mischievous,
767
00:50:29.110 --> 00:50:31.849
you know, things moving around, you know, the, the Gwen
768
00:50:31.909 --> 00:50:35.469
taking a shower and her towel and brush being gone and,
769
00:50:35.849 --> 00:50:39.489
finding equipment in the refrigerator or a pile of wood
770
00:50:39.530 --> 00:50:42.570
being moved. It's almost like, you know, playful and trying
771
00:50:42.590 --> 00:50:46.480
to get your attention and almost a form of communication.
772
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:48.900
But then you had other stuff, creatures that show up
773
00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:53.460
that don't exist. The muscular hyena that attacked their horse,
774
00:50:53.539 --> 00:50:58.190
the dino beaver that Colum and others saw, you know,
775
00:50:58.690 --> 00:51:02.349
animals that don't exist, Bigfoot-type creatures, things in the house
776
00:51:02.630 --> 00:51:06.139
and dark entities that scares the heck out of anybody
777
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:10.519
who's there, I mean, at times playful, at times harmful,
778
00:51:11.260 --> 00:51:14.699
and a lot of times very mysterious. So going in
779
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:17.639
to it, and then now, Robert, after all these years,
780
00:51:18.260 --> 00:51:21.730
is it an it? Is it a they? Is it
781
00:51:22.250 --> 00:51:26.429
a dimensional crossroads where things bleed in from other realities?
782
00:51:27.130 --> 00:51:29.489
Is it all the same thing, just taking different forms?
783
00:51:29.710 --> 00:51:30.110
What do you think?
784
00:51:30.130 --> 00:51:32.610
It's all of the above, but you're not, you're not,
785
00:51:33.570 --> 00:51:37.750
when you're engaging in an elementary type of communication, like
786
00:51:37.889 --> 00:51:41.710
setting up games or being, or they're setting up things
787
00:51:41.730 --> 00:51:46.489
that are being acted upon or they're playing games, you
788
00:51:46.530 --> 00:51:50.670
haven't established any rule parameters yet. So if you were
789
00:51:51.130 --> 00:51:56.119
to undertake serious communication that we talked about last night,
790
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:00.619
you would set up a variety of different kinds of
791
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:08.170
parameters and And probably some of that parameter would include
792
00:52:09.230 --> 00:52:12.650
who you want coming through. If you are opening up
793
00:52:14.070 --> 00:52:22.530
the door to another side of consciousness, more sophisticated than
794
00:52:22.989 --> 00:52:30.010
our dimension, you need to establish an effort. You need
795
00:52:30.030 --> 00:52:32.570
to make an effort. as to with whom do you
796
00:52:32.610 --> 00:52:37.440
want to communicate. That's what I would do. I would
797
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:42.400
set that up. I would try to have the right
798
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:47.260
attitude about it entirely. Sincerity really, really means a lot.
799
00:52:48.260 --> 00:52:51.789
If you think you're going to, if it's all telepathic,
800
00:52:53.650 --> 00:52:57.510
you don't know anything about the subject's ability to detect
801
00:52:57.570 --> 00:53:03.809
fraud in your behavior. If you're not sincere, you're, you're,
802
00:53:03.929 --> 00:53:06.150
you're going to be stopped. So I would, I would
803
00:53:06.210 --> 00:53:13.050
sincerely do what I could to invent ways to try
804
00:53:13.070 --> 00:53:17.969
to communicate with whom I wanted to communicate. Um, that
805
00:53:18.010 --> 00:53:24.409
was a peaceful entity, a spiritual even entity, um, not
806
00:53:24.429 --> 00:53:29.829
a malevolent one. And because they're there, um, Not so
807
00:53:29.869 --> 00:53:32.610
different than human beings in a sense, right? But the
808
00:53:32.659 --> 00:53:38.519
emotional kind of characteristics. But so I would gravitate everything
809
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:42.300
I could toward that kind of entity that I wanted
810
00:53:42.380 --> 00:53:45.460
to have a responsible dialogue with.
811
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:49.429
Sort of the same question for you, Brandon. You've been
812
00:53:49.449 --> 00:53:52.449
there a long time now. And, you know, so many
813
00:53:52.510 --> 00:53:55.489
different kinds of manifestations. I guess you can't, if the
814
00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:59.030
investigation's ongoing, you don't want to lock yourself into one position.
815
00:54:00.050 --> 00:54:03.090
You have flying saucers there. You think we equate that
816
00:54:03.150 --> 00:54:06.300
with ETs. But you have other kinds of phenomena that
817
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:09.159
have nothing to do with what we think we know
818
00:54:09.219 --> 00:54:10.119
about aliens.
819
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:13.900
It's non-human intelligence. I think the safest way to characterize
820
00:54:14.739 --> 00:54:17.929
what we're interacting with, in my view, is that it's
821
00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:19.469
non-human intelligence.
822
00:54:19.809 --> 00:54:20.769
It's far advanced.
823
00:54:22.750 --> 00:54:27.369
It has capabilities that no one can explain based on
824
00:54:27.429 --> 00:54:33.010
our current understanding of physics or technology platforms, and there's
825
00:54:33.050 --> 00:54:36.610
a diversity of phenomena that exists.
826
00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:37.809
It's not just.
827
00:54:39.349 --> 00:54:45.900
Unidentified aerial phenomena or cryptid creatures that, that are not
828
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:51.119
easily identified. You have shadow figures, you have spectral images
829
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:55.320
that have appeared to a number of people. Um, and
830
00:54:55.699 --> 00:55:00.559
during my stewardship, you were there with, uh, the international
831
00:55:00.619 --> 00:55:04.880
superstar Robbie Williams. And when, when George came out with
832
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:10.800
Robbie Williams, uh, to document what was happening with the
833
00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:14.070
ranch under my stewardship at that time, I, I had no,
834
00:55:14.889 --> 00:55:17.590
no desire to ever reveal my identity as the owner.
835
00:55:17.630 --> 00:55:21.650
And I, I forced them to, to mask my voice
836
00:55:21.789 --> 00:55:27.460
and to mask my identity. But during that fateful visit, uh,
837
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:32.289
a number of things happened. And most notably, at the
838
00:55:32.369 --> 00:55:39.710
end of that visit, as everyone was retiring for the night, Mr. Williams, security,
839
00:55:41.349 --> 00:55:46.769
private security professional, was watching everyone kind of get ready
840
00:55:46.829 --> 00:55:50.230
for bed and go back down the back hallway in
841
00:55:50.269 --> 00:55:55.409
the trailer, in the command center, and saw a spectral image,
842
00:55:56.550 --> 00:56:01.139
a figure, a dark figure, come through the wall and
843
00:56:01.300 --> 00:56:07.260
follow back into the hallway right before his eyes. And
844
00:56:07.300 --> 00:56:13.889
this is, you remember, that security professional expressed his skepticism.
845
00:56:15.010 --> 00:56:16.469
Coming into it. When they came in.
846
00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:20.849
When he arrived, he told me, I don't believe in
847
00:56:20.929 --> 00:56:24.690
any of this paranormal stuff, but I'm here simply to
848
00:56:24.750 --> 00:56:31.150
protect Robbie Williams. Well, and you can corroborate this. When
849
00:56:31.210 --> 00:56:35.230
he saw that spectral image appear and follow down the
850
00:56:35.269 --> 00:56:41.539
back hallway, he gave you guys five minutes to pack
851
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:46.000
up your things and to head to the airport and
852
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:46.940
to make an exit.
853
00:56:47.860 --> 00:56:48.800
That's compelling.
854
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:53.019
When you have a private security professional that is tasked
855
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:57.340
with the health and safety of a high-profile global celebrity,
856
00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:05.690
who expressed skepticism upon first entering the property that ends
857
00:57:05.789 --> 00:57:13.530
up evacuating everyone because of his own witness of phenomena
858
00:57:13.550 --> 00:57:14.469
that he can't explain.
859
00:57:14.530 --> 00:57:16.769
I mean, that was pretty compelling.
860
00:57:18.809 --> 00:57:21.789
Thank you for listening to The Bigelow Podcast. Part 2
861
00:57:21.789 --> 00:57:24.949
of our discussion with Brandon Fugel will be available Tuesday,
862
00:57:25.230 --> 00:57:28.860
September 1st. If you have any interesting questions you'd like
863
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:32.440
to see us address, please send us a letter to 1-899-WESTBROOKSAVENUE,
864
00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:35.420
Las Vegas, Nevada, 89032, Care of Bigelow Podcast.
865
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:35.760
Thanks.