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Hey everyone.
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Welcome to the Multiple Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser and so grateful that you're joining us on number seven of our Eight Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication.
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It's part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative.
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We're asking all of our churches in our tribe to be multiplying churches by being planting churches or partnering churches.
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And we're trying to dismantle some of those objections with this podcast to help encourage our pastors and leaders to be multipliers and to lead multiplying churches.
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And thank goodness I don't have to host this podcast by myself.
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Michael Bronson is back with us again in this series.
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Michael, thanks so much for jumping on. How are you today?
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I'm doing well, Paul.
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I've missed you.
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I feel like it's been a long time.
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I feel like --.
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Why is it that we only hang out during these podcasts?
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What's going on here, Paul?
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What's going on?
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Well, probably the biggest reason is you live in one side of the country and I live on the other.
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Oh. yeah, yeah. Okay. I'll give you a pass on that.
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Yeah, Thank you. I do appreciate you leaning in so well.
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Michael, I thought our podcast was going viral a couple of weeks ago, only to find out that I think either one person was super eager, or a couple of people were super eager and downloaded every single one of our episodes.
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Or it was a bot.
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But either way, we're grateful for the stats. So thank you to the bot or the person.
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Appreciate you leaning in.
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So today we are talking about Objection Number Seven, which is it's too risky, the work is too hard, and it's risky to be involved in church multiplication. And to solve all of our problems, folks, we have a great guest today.
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John Albiston from Edmonton area and he works at the district office here. He's an effectiveness coach, is on our Multiply Network lead team and been a part of church multiplication and planting and multi sites and all sorts of things in helping churches get turnaround.
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John, thanks for coming on and helping us solve this problem.
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It's good to be here.
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It's good to have you.
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So let's jump in.
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What's the legitimate argument for the work is too hard. It's too risky to be involved in church multiplication.
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John, what do you think?
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What's the legitimacy here?
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I'm sure you've heard this before.
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Where do you think it finds its roots?
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Well, I think there's a difference between risk and being risky.
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And I think it's important to understand that.
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So pretty much every day I put myself in a several thousand pound metal box and go flying down the road at 110, 120 clicks.
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And there's risk in doing that.
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There's risk in driving.
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I make one wrong move and I'm dead. My family's dead.
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Other families are dead.
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Like, there's a significant amount of risk in driving, but that doesn't mean I have to be a risky driver.
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Right.
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Those are two very, very, very different things.
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There's things that I can do to significantly mitigate that risk.
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And the same thing with church planting.
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Yeah, there's risk in church planting, but that doesn't mean you have to be a risky church planter.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Michael, what do you think?
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Where's the legitimacy here?
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Where does this find its roots?
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Yeah. Well, we all have heard stories.
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The successful stories, which has been awesome, you know, of, This happened and this happened.
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It was so easy. But then you also hear the opposite end, where it's, Oh yeah, it totally failed.
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And now my family, you know, how do I provide for my family? What do I do here?
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And listen, like, church planting and being involved in church multiplication, it's hard work.
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And there's a cost and there's a sacrifice to it.
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And just like what John was saying, there is that risk behind it.
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But of course, we know - and this what we're gonna be talking about today - that it's obviously going to be worth it.
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And you know, I remember one of -- a great memory that I have of starting a church is I remember I was pushing a porta potty down the road to an event that we were doing. It got dropped off at the wrong spot.
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And, you know, people are honking at me driving by, this sort of thing.
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And I'm just thinking, Plant the church, they said. This will be great, they said. And, you know, later on that afternoon, I had to wear the Mario costume, you know, in the middle of the summer.
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It's so hot. It's like, this is, this is really hard work.
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And, you know, will people even come to this event that we're trying to run to show the kindness of who God is to the community?
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And like, it's, it's a risk.
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But I really like what you just said there, John. It doesn't have to be risky. And there's a difference between risk and riskiness. And, you know, I like to think of it as there's almost like a foolish risk where it's, okay, this is just almost incompetence. Why did you think that would work? That was just like you were so in the sky.
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Did you pray about that?
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Like, why are you doing that?
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Versus a healthy risk where it's, Okay, Lord, you're calling us to this.
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If this doesn't work out, we're in big trouble, but God, we're trusting you. So there's a big difference there between that healthy risk and foolish risk, which I'm excited to talk about today.
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Yeah, I think some of this argument pops up when the church planter or the church feels like they have an unusual amount of ownership for it.
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And not understanding that it's God who's actually the one who's taking the risk - because it's His church.
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We're obedient.
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And so when I hear people say it's too risky, I'm like, for who?
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If God-- if God's asking you to do it, then who is it actually risky for?
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Have you--?
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Maybe the risk is did you hear from God? And I guess that could be part of it.
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It's like, well, we want to be good stewards and don't want to mess it up.
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And I understand all those things.
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But I have found that people who get worked up about the risk factor, or the amount of hard work it takes, they've heard too many negative stories -- which, maybe that's our fault as organizational leaders sometimes, where we don't share enough positive stories -- or they're taking too much ownership in it.
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And it's becomes risky because now, if you own it, then you get the success for when it goes.
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But then you also have to own the failure when it doesn't go. And so I just think that this shows up sometimes- if we check our motives and we're using this as an argument not to plant - we have to ask ourselves, are we taking too much ownership in this?
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And can we just again, just push this towards obedience as opposed to making some sort of risk or risky endeavor?
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And so, you know, as we talk about this now - and I think we talked about a little bit already - where does this not hold water now?
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Like where does this not like, Okay-- You know, I shared a few things about, you know, ownership. John, where do you think this breaks down?
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Like that may be your argument, but it doesn't hold up.
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Well, there's definitely, like, ways to plant a church where you're greatly reducing that risk.
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When I look at a risky driver, what I'm looking at is someone who didn't take things very seriously and weren't very sober minded or sometimes not even literally sober.
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And that's why they're risky driver.
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And the same thing with a church plant is, quite frankly, there is a significant amount of responsibility and we have to be sober minded about it.
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And when we look at, Do I have a team, Do I have the calling, Do I have the skills in order to do that? Well, those are good questions to ask.
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Sometimes I think that questions of risk are ultimately questions of fear.
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And there are two unhealthy responses to fear that I see in church planting.
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that's scary so I'm going to run away.
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That's not a healthy response to fear.
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The other, and I see this too,
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that's scary so I'm going to ignore it.
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And so I see people going off to try to plant the church half cocked, and that's a risky church plant.
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That you haven't actually thought through things very much.
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You haven't made a lot of preparation.
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And now that's a risky plant.
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I think the best way of dealing with the fear is to go through the fear.
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And what I mean by that is if I'm a planter and, well, I'm afraid that nobody's going to come.
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Okay, let's go through that fear.
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Why are you afraid of that?
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Well, like, I haven't done things in the past that have really attracted crowds before.
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Okay, is there somebody out there who might know something that I don't who's good at this?
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Because now that I've identified, I'm not sure if I know how to get somebody to come. Well, now I know that there's a specific skill I need to acquire.
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There's specific partnerships I need to make, the specific coaches I need to connect with to help me with that fear.
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If my fear is, Well, you know what?
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I don't know if I can lead a stranger to Christ.
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Okay. Don't ignore that fear.
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That's important.
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That also is a skill set.
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Well, if you're not sure, is there any way you can gain that skill set? Are there coaches?
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Are there people that I can talk to who can teach me how to lead a stranger to Christ?
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You know, I'm not sure if we're going to have enough money.
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Okay. Don't ignore that fear.
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Go through that fear.
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Is there somebody I can talk to who can help me with the financing?
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But that is the healthy way of dealing with with fear is to go through the fear and face the fear.
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The cocky, 'I don't need to listen to anybody church plants'.
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Right. That's not courage.
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That's avoidance.
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And that's not the healthy way of dealing with things.
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John, I think you make a good point regarding risk and responsibility.
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Where there's a responsibility and that's where it might feel risky.
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And I thought that was a really good way to describe that, because I do think the responsibility can feel overwhelming, the responsibility can feel challenging and risky.
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But really, you can't avoid responsibility if you're launching out in this.
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There's going to be some responsibility that you have and it's going to create some fear, potentially. Love your thoughts around fear. Michael, your thoughts?
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Where do you think this objection isn't going to really stand the test of time?
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Yeah, and the reason why we're bringing it up today is because I think just as as humans, there's this natural tendency to think, no, this could go wrong.
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This could go wrong, this could go wrong.
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I remember hearing a story.
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This was before I planted a church where I think it was somewhere in the States.
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But there was 200 people on opening Sunday, you know. And, you know, this is --. They left, these two church planters left on top of the world. Wow.
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200 people believe in our in our vision of what God's doing in this community. This is so exciting.
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This is great.
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And then the next week, they come back. They they do it all over again for the next Sunday.
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And there were 35 people that showed up, and there's over 200 chairs set up for this congregation.
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And I was just hearing their story about how they were just so discouraged of, Oh, God, I thought you were doing this, but I guess you're not doing this and this sort of thing.
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And I guess it was more of their friends and family and well-wishers that came, or people from other churches that were trying to show that support.
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So I've got this story in the back of my mind as we're now starting this church and in Binbrook.
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And I went through the same thing when we started in Dundas.
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And I think anyone that's has planted a church kind of relates with this, or anyone that is in the process of planting the church relates with that feeling of absolute terror of, Okay, I've moved my family, I've quit my job.
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I've kind of put it all on the line here.
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But is this actually, is this actually going to work?
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And I really like what John said there, that we push through the fear. We don't run from it.
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We don't avoid it.
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You know what? This is actually a part of walking as a disciple of Jesus. He's asking us to do things that sometimes are terrifying.
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He asks us to do things sometimes that take that trust, and just that level of faith that we haven't been to before.
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We haven't had to show this level of faith yet in certain ways.
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And I think that's just part of being a disciple and especially being a leader in God's kingdom.
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You know, how how are we going to call others to take risks if we ourself aren't taking that risk?
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And, oh, I'm still stressed over thinking of that first day, of kinda how scary it was. But it's--.
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I love that. You push through the fear.
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It's yeah, it's --.
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Let's acknowledge there's going to be some fear here. There's going to be some risk here.
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It's going to be hard work.
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But you push through it knowing who God is, knowing that if God's called us to it, it's okay if 200 people come, it's okay if 35 people come.
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It's actually okay.
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Right. And I think it's--.
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We were talking about this earlier, but I think almost we need to redefine what success is. Success isn't whether people come on a Sunday morning or not.
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It's not.
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It's not, oh, how many chairs did you have to set up?
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Success is, Okay, God, if you've asked me to do it.
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Okay, I'll do that.
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And I love what you were saying earlier,Paul, is the risk actually isn't mine to carry.
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And I actually don't need to stress over whether people come or not because I've done the work.
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I've gone through the process.
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I follow, as you said, God, I'm being obedient. So whatever happens, it's actually okay.
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It's actually success no matter where we land.
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Narratives around this argument objection actually are the fuel for it, I would say. Because the negative stories are like, Whoa, that was a lot of risk.
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But then also the positive ones, the rags to riches stories on church planting, I don't think help us either.
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And those are the ones that get staged. And they say, we could never be like them.
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We started in a garage with three people.
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I heard of one recently where they literally started in like a working barn.
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They couldn't find any other location.
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And now they're a church of thousands of people in several locations.
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Or I heard another one.
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They moved -- You talked about moved-- with just a few couples to a neighborhood that had no church. And they, you know, maxed out their credit cards for a sound system.
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And if God didn't show up --.
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And you're sitting there going, whoa, how could I ever be like them? That is crazy.
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And you never hear the stories
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we got an assessment. We got trained. We developed a launch plan and a launch team.
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We raised money.
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Had organizational partnership.
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We have ongoing coaching.
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And we have seen two or 3 or 4 churches start as a result.
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And we keep repeat--. Because it's not as glamorous.
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And so I think part of it is we need to tell those stories of just, like, everyday people who went through the processes, did the right things.
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Because when I first heard of church planting, I heard of all the closures. One in every three closures, or eight out of ten churches that start close.
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Let me share some stats with you from our Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada Fellowship from 2010 to 2020. That 88% of the self-governing churches we started in that decade were still around December 31st, 2019, and 90% of the closures of our churches in that ten year period were ten years or older.
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I think -- I think we've figured out a way to do sustainable church planting.
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And I hear this right across the board. You know, John, we go to different conferences and we hear that the success is happening.
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And this idea of like, you can actually mitigate the risk with good planning, good steps of faith, good fundraising, good coaching, training, assessment, all of it.
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And you can see success.
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So, you know, again, I don't know --. I can understand hearing the negative stories, hearing the positive stories, how it could bring some tension and maybe fear into us.
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But when when I look at these stats I get encouraged and go, no, no, I the both the positive and the negative stories-- okay, great.
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They're great stories, the positive ones. Negative ones are sober reminders. But the mass majority of people in the middle are just like you did, Michael.
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You went through the process, you planted, you grew the church, you grew your team.
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Like any comments, Michael, on that?
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Yeah. You know what that, what you just said, reminds me of.
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I remember hearing a story of Ed Stetzer, who has written a couple of books on church planting. He's planted a couple of churches sort of thing.
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He was at a conference once with two other church planters, so there's three church planters on stage.
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And yeah, the one was a megachurch and we started from nothing and look- 5000 people.
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And then the other one is that, yeah, we started, we put our house-- we remortgaged our house and now there's 10,000 people.
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And then I got to Ed's part and he said he just really felt for the average church planter in the room that these stories, as incredible as there are, they actually might be pretty discouraging.
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So he was like, I'm just going to be fully honest with what my story was.
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He said, yeah, we worked with our denomination, went through the process, and our church plant's about 65, 75 people.
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And you know what, though?
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We've been baptizing people and people have been moving in and looking for a church and there's new disciples being made.
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And yeah, it's not a glamorous story, but the Kingdom of God is moving forward. And I just remember listening to that and just like they were almost like, this was this weight.
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It was like, I don't need to be at the megachurch.
00:19:16.049 --> 00:19:21.179
I don't need to be, you know, all these legendary pastors with the epic stories.
00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:24.509
Am I just being faithful in what God's doing?
00:19:24.509 --> 00:19:26.699
Am I just trying to listen, God, what are you doing?
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.348
Okay, let me go do that.
00:19:28.349 --> 00:19:37.769
Even if the numbers are not thousands of people, even if it's just tens of people or dozens of people. You know, in some context starting off, even just 1 or 2 people to start.
00:19:37.769 --> 00:19:38.608
Perfect.
00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:40.709
Like, that's actually okay.
00:19:40.710 --> 00:19:42.808
And I don't think we talk about that enough.
00:19:42.809 --> 00:19:43.798
John, what do you think?
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:56.219
Like when you when you hear, you know, some of those rags to riches stories or the negative ones, what comes to your mind about this narrative around church multiplication being risky?
00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:59.338
Or you need to be risky for it to be successful?
00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:01.318
Well, I mean, you need to take risk.
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:15.419
Like I don't think we need to be risky because that's being irresponsible. And I mean, I think-- when I think of some of the negative stories, the negative stories that I know of personally, where things didn't work out is because people were being risky.
00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:18.868
They weren't going through assessment. They didn't have a plan.
00:20:18.869 --> 00:20:20.608
They weren't looking for coaching.
00:20:20.609 --> 00:20:25.353
And quite frankly, they weren't teachable. Like, I mean, that's such an important character thing-- Oh,my goodness.
00:20:25.354 --> 00:20:33.598
-- to develop as a church planter and quite frankly, as a pastor, if you're going to succeed as a pastor, a teachable heart. You know, these cocky don't tell me what to do.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.009
I know what I'm going to do.
00:20:35.009 --> 00:20:37.409
Those are the ones who crash and burn.
00:20:37.410 --> 00:20:41.638
But, I mean, there's things we can learn. I mean, when someone goes off half cocked, I have no plan.
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:42.949
I have no strategy.
00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:46.489
I have no coaching and I'm just going to do things my way.
00:20:46.490 --> 00:20:47.868
Don't bother me with any of that.
00:20:47.869 --> 00:20:49.249
And then they the crash and burn.
00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:51.078
Okay, pay attention to that.
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.449
Don't be like that guy.
00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:57.108
If you're going to plant a church, get coaching.
00:20:57.109 --> 00:20:59.419
Build a good team.
00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:00.769
Arrange good finance.
00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:07.368
I mean, there's things you can do that greatly, greatly, greatly improve your chances of success.
00:21:07.369 --> 00:21:10.729
Again, just like me driving to the office.
00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:16.699
There's a lot of things that I do that greatly improve my chance of making it to the office alive.
00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:24.078
You know, Am I drunk or high? No. Okay, well, that's one step. Is my car falling apart? Are my brake lights not working?
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.828
Well, making sure the car's in working order. That's another step.
00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:29.055
Did I ever read the driver's manual?
00:21:29.056 --> 00:21:30.569
Do I know the rules of the road?
00:21:30.570 --> 00:21:36.378
Did I, you know, get a driver's license? Am I distracted?
00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:45.019
I mean, there's so many things that I do that reduce the risk so that, quite frankly, I can drive to the office safely. And we all do this.
00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:53.598
Church planting isn't that much different. There are things that we can do to reduce that risk.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.259
Now, is God the one who's always powering things?
00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.598
Yes. So we should never take, you know, credit.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:06.229
You know, as the Bible says, Paul planted Apollos watered, but God makes the seed grow.
00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:11.690
But that doesn't mean that Paul and Apollos, you know, just sat back and did nothing and God just made seeds grow.
00:22:12.769 --> 00:22:18.439
Every single farmer on the planet, there's like there's no farmer on the planet who can make a seed grow.
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:34.699
But it doesn't mean that the farmer doesn't have a job to do, you know? And if the job is--. If the farmer is diligent and has thought through, Okay, I need to till the soil, I need to plant the seeds, I need to water the seeds, I need to pull the weeds.
00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:36.858
Boy, those seeds grow a lot more.
00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:39.739
And same thing as a pastor and as a church planter.
00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:46.429
If we take care of our responsibilities, God's going to come in and He's going to make the seeds grow.
00:22:46.430 --> 00:22:50.778
We can count on Him. Just like the farmer can count on God to make the seed grow.
00:22:50.779 --> 00:22:52.969
So long as the farmer does his part.
00:22:52.970 --> 00:22:56.598
We just have to do our part and not go off half cocked.
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:05.028
Yeah. No, that's good. Because one of the things I was going to ask and you kind of answered it is how do we mitigate risk?
00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:13.859
And you know, some of the things I mentioned, you mentioned, can help mitigate risk when churches and leaders think about planting and multiplying.
00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:22.759
But the risk is so -- I don't know how to phrase this -- but the risk is, are we going to be successful or not?
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:23.719
Isn't that it?
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:29.719
Like, isn't that what the risk is about? Like, the risk isn't like, Oh, we started.
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:34.098
The risk is, Did we start and were we successful?
00:23:34.099 --> 00:23:40.759
And one of the things that I think might help us get through this objection is redefining success.
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:45.949
Michael, do you have any thoughts about what we can do to maybe redefine success?
00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:48.409
Yeah, well, it's like we were talking earlier, right?
00:23:48.410 --> 00:23:59.128
And we've probably talked about this on previous podcasts and this sort of thing. But what we need to do is we need to be prophetic leaders. We need to be people who are listening to God's voice.
00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:01.669
Okay God, where are you actually leading us to?
00:24:01.670 --> 00:24:02.959
And then we do it.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:16.038
And then, like we've been talking about this whole episode, is that God takes ownership over success. You know, and whatever happens, it's actually okay as long as we're following God's Spirit, as long as we're keeping in step with God's Spirit.
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:21.439
And, you know, I love the stories in Scripture as the examples given to us.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:28.878
Like you've got Paul, who would go from city to city, you know, starting these churches with his friends and with his team and this sort of thing.
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:37.278
But the one time he's stoned to death outside of the city and it's kind of like, yeah, real successful, Paul. Great job.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.118
You're there bloody and beaten up and broken.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.358
But I just love how even through that, what does Paul do?
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:54.709
He gets back up and goes back to the city, you know, and encourages the church that's there and encourages the leaders that are there. So success looks so different for different people.
00:24:54.710 --> 00:25:00.969
The point is, are we doing what God wants us to be doing? And listen, in that story, yeah, it's hard work.
00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:11.688
Like, that wasn't easy -- or I'm assuming here -- that wasn't easy for Paul to stand back up again, covered, beaten, covered in blood, and just walk boldly back into that city.
00:25:11.689 --> 00:25:13.189
Like, it takes courage.
00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:14.479
It takes faith.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:20.269
It takes looking at that risk and saying, I'm going to push through this, But at the end of the day, it's not on our shoulders.
00:25:20.269 --> 00:25:22.920
Whether it's successful or not, it's completely on God's.
00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:31.298
John, you've worked with lots of churches in around, but then also with planting, you've had experience in that.
00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:42.669
You and I have chatted about how metrics need to change probably, and how we need to be thinking about what does successful church look like.
00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:44.469
Can you talk to that a little bit?
00:25:44.470 --> 00:26:08.740
And then also how it actually looks for an individual church to like--. So, for example, a church in a small town in rural Alberta probably can't have the same production, whatever, same impact, or even the same call, as maybe a church in a suburban area to reach and, you know --.
00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:15.348
Can you talk about what those metrics might need to be in the future, to shift?
00:26:15.349 --> 00:26:27.979
And then also talk about how individual success matters? Because in the end, God's going to ask us were we faithful with what we were asked to do, not being faithful with someone else's call.
00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.709
Yeah, I think that's a great question, Paul.
00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:38.088
I think when it comes to metrics, the most helpful metrics -- sometimes people call them lead metrics.
00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:43.759
Are we measuring the things that are most likely to lead to the results we want?
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.778
And so let's take evangelism as an example.
00:26:47.779 --> 00:26:55.019
Now, I have exactly zero control over whether somebody responds to the gospel.
00:26:56.170 --> 00:27:00.128
Now, I care if they respond to the gospel, but I've got zero control.
00:27:00.130 --> 00:27:04.598
But what I do have control over is, Am I initiating conversations?
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:14.709
And so we want to measure the things that we have control over, that have the potential to lead to the salvations.
00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:25.838
So, instead of necessarily focusing on measuring the salvation, which I have no control over, why don't I measure how many times I present the gospel?
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.999
Why don't I measure the number of times that I'm trying to connect with people?
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:37.868
Because those are the things that really matter. And I mean, the two are definitely linked, but one is my responsibility.
00:27:37.869 --> 00:27:40.118
The others is their responsibility.
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:41.439
God's responsibility.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.838
I don't have much to do about that.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.048
But I can measure the things that I do.
00:27:47.049 --> 00:27:50.949
And I think those are the most important things for us to measure.
00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:54.338
Sometimes people call it about celebrating the attempt.
00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:55.898
Like, did you get up to the plate?
00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:57.489
Did you swing the bat?
00:27:57.490 --> 00:28:02.618
Because if you never get up to the plate and you never swinging the back, guess what? You're not going to hit any homeruns.
00:28:02.619 --> 00:28:11.409
But let's celebrate our part of the responsibility and not worry as much about how other people are responding.
00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:12.939
If that makes any sense.
00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.288
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:14.289 --> 00:28:19.449
And then also just talk about how, you know, your call is going to be different than someone else's.
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:31.929
And I think Howard Hendricks said this - Dr. Howard Hendricks said, comparison is the highest form of carnality, meaning we're never more human than when we're comparing.
00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:41.888
And I think that gets -- that becomes a real challenge, especially for church planters, when they hear the big stories, the rags to riches stories.
00:28:41.890 --> 00:28:47.380
How do you encourage a planter or a church to stay at it, to be faithful?
00:28:49.089 --> 00:28:54.608
Because sometimes it does take a while for that crop, that harvest to grow.
00:28:54.609 --> 00:29:02.920
Well, I think just when we talked a little bit about facing your fears and going through them, same thing is when you're facing challenges and difficulties.
00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:05.858
To face them and going through them.
00:29:05.859 --> 00:29:12.969
So, if there's a specific issue in your church plant that you're struggling with, nobody's ever coming.
00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:14.739
Okay, well, don't ignore that.
00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:16.148
Don't run away from that.
00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:24.298
But ask, Do I know a coach who's had some success at dealing with that issue?
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:28.108
Do I know another pastor who's had success at dealing with that issue?
00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:32.189
Is there something I can learn from them in order to deal with that?
00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:43.469
If we've got a problem- and this is a problem a number of churches have - where, no, no, no, we get lots of people who come, but they only come once and they never come back.
00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:46.338
Okay, that is unfortunate.
00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:47.759
But don't ignore that.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.278
Go through that.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:57.019
Okay, how can I find out with through connections with other church planters, other pastors, with coaches.
00:29:57.019 --> 00:29:59.690
Can you help me figure out what's going wrong here?
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:03.558
Can you help me figure out how to solve this issue?
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:11.298
But it's always going to be looking--. Like if something's not going according to expectation, don't ignore that.
00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:13.398
First, pray about it.
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:17.148
But then, like, don't hold the rest of the body of Christ in contempt.
00:30:17.150 --> 00:30:22.969
I mean, we're a body of Christ for a reason. We're supposed to rely on each other. We're supposed to depend on each other.
00:30:22.970 --> 00:30:25.878
We're supposed to teach and coach and encourage each other.
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:31.519
So if we are facing a challenge in a certain area in our church plant, hey, reach out to the body.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.838
That's what we're here for.
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:40.699
Yeah. And I totally agree with that, that don't actually be in competition with someone because you're actually on the same team.
00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:54.588
So, like, if that that leader that knows how to grow a church and knows how to keep first time guests and you know on ramp people with good evangelism and all of that, reach out.
00:30:54.589 --> 00:30:57.709
You know, you're not -- you can't be great at everything.
00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:01.066
And sometimes we ask planters and --.
00:31:01.067 --> 00:31:06.420
That's why it's so important to plant with the team, because you can't be all things to all people.
00:31:07.539 --> 00:31:07.682
Oh, absolutely.
00:31:07.683 --> 00:31:12.288
You need you need help and--. No, that's really, really good.
00:31:12.289 --> 00:31:20.719
Michael, you have a scripture for us that that ties into this thing, this topic we are discussing today.
00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:22.638
Yes, that's right.
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.898
So for all of us wondering, is it worth the risk?
00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:28.098
You know, it's way too risky.
00:31:28.099 --> 00:31:29.388
It's way too hard to do.
00:31:29.390 --> 00:31:31.249
Like, is this really worth it?
00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:32.929
I just want to read you Hebrews
00:31:32.930 --> 00:31:34.098
6.
00:31:34.099 --> 00:31:35.328
And this is a classic verse.
00:31:35.329 --> 00:31:36.618
We all know it.
00:31:36.619 --> 00:31:47.598
It says, And without faith, it is impossible to please God because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:54.858
And it's just, it's a very blunt statement, right? If you want to please God, it's going to take faith.
00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:55.969
It's it's going to--.
00:31:55.970 --> 00:31:57.642
And faith shows trust, right?
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:05.838
And I know it's a difficult question that we have to ask ourselves, and it kind of hurts if we're actually being honest.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:14.989
But in this area of multiplication, do we trust God that He's going to come through? If He's leading us to something do we really trust that He's able to do it?
00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:17.689
Do we really trust that it's going to be worth it in the end?
00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:24.318
Do we really trust that the hard work, that there's this reward on the other side that actually was worth going through?
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:32.538
And, you know, I think I would challenge every single person listening today. Let's honestly ask ourselves, do we have the faith for that? Do we have the trust for that?
00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:38.369
And and if not, we probably we probably need to push ourselves on that and challenge ourselves on that.
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:47.568
Yeah, like, I can almost hear someone out there saying, Well, if I have total faith and trust in God, is there any risk involved?
00:32:48.609 --> 00:32:51.270
But boy, I mean, that would that's an interesting --.
00:32:51.271 --> 00:32:53.358
You know, that's an interesting thing to think about.
00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:03.660
Like, if I am so convinced that God has spoke, that He is faithful and I totally trust Him, where's the risk then?
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.098
Like, where is the risk?
00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:10.818
And Lord, help my faith. I want to be there.
00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:13.818
I want to have that kind of -- that kind of level.
00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:14.659
And you know what?
00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:21.679
I talk with some people - and I could list off the names of them and you would know them - that that's how they live.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.538
God's going to come through.
00:33:23.539 --> 00:33:24.616
I am so convinced.
00:33:24.617 --> 00:33:26.598
This isn't a risk.
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.935
We have to do this, or we're planting this, or we're going here, and I'm convinced that God --.
00:33:30.936 --> 00:33:34.578
And it just like, I'm amazed at their faith.
00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:39.618
Yeah. And can we just affirm every person who has planted a church listening to this right now?
00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:46.338
Is that, yeah, it may be scary during, but the fact that you did it shows you believed God could do it.
00:33:46.339 --> 00:33:48.229
So just Gold Star.
00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:48.348
Well done. Thumbs up. High five. Well done.
00:33:48.349 --> 00:33:52.398
Ten points. You get ten points.
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.548
You redeemed them at the end of the podcast for something.
00:33:55.549 --> 00:33:59.808
So here's the objection we've been, you know, batting around
00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:06.469
The work is too hard and risky to be involved in church multiplication.
00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:10.157
It's God's church.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.637
So it's His risk and our obedience.
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:22.548
And -- and I love this -- the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of church multiplication.
00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:33.619
This week, I've had 3 or 4 conversations of people who are going to be planting a church or kicking tires on it.
00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:45.768
And as I kind of overview the process and all the different things they have to do and the, you know, the coaching, the training, the fundraising and all these different things and you just see the look on their face like, Whoa, this is this is big.
00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.349
This is a big step.
00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:49.141
And I remind them.
00:34:49.141 --> 00:35:02.119
I say, Okay, close your eyes for a second and I want you to picture that first mom and dad with their family that come to your church. Someone invited them, and they respond to Jesus for the first time.
00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:13.219
That young adult, that college career student that's struggling, can't find community, you know, trying to explore everything in the world and finding hopelessness and empty.
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:16.548
And they hear a message of the gospel and respond.
00:35:16.550 --> 00:35:22.849
I want you to picture that first person that comes to Jesus in your church plant.
00:35:22.849 --> 00:35:24.409
What are you going to say?
00:35:24.409 --> 00:35:27.239
And they almost always say it will be worth it.
00:35:28.449 --> 00:35:30.039
It's worth it.
00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:32.289
And that's what we have to keep front and center.
00:35:32.289 --> 00:35:35.018
It's not --. Jesus didn't actually tell us to plant churches.
00:35:35.019 --> 00:35:37.809
He told us to make disciples and expand the kingdom.
00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:44.378
That's what church -- church multiplication has to be, always be, in service of that.
00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:56.648
So if we believe that it's God's church, so it's His risk and our obedience, and the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of multiplication.
00:35:56.650 --> 00:36:01.119
Since we believe this, what are some next steps, John, that we need to do?
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:11.239
The understanding that it's God's church, I think is really important on a number of different levels, but one of them even is connected to the issue of risk.
00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:35.409
When I look at unsuccessful church plants, the attitude of the planter wasn't that this is God's church, but it was that this was my church, and I was going to plant the kind of church that I thought was the right thing to do that's going to do things my way.
00:36:35.409 --> 00:36:54.260
And it's been a real preference driven church. And I remember one night -- and actually you might even have been there, Paul, this was years ago at an assessment in Calgary -- the church planter's motivation for planting a church is, Finally there's going to be a church that's going to do church doctrine my way.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:03.159
Man, that's --. When the church becomes all about your church and doing things your way --.
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:07.688
Man, you just took the risk element and just shot it through the roof.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:10.735
That is really, really risky.
00:37:10.735 --> 00:37:33.909
When it's God's church, the risk goes down dramatically, not only because it's God's strong arm that's fueling the church, but when we start doing things God's way and we lower our pride and are doing things in submission to Him and we're having those open and teachable hearts.
00:37:33.909 --> 00:37:41.679
Boy, that makes such a difference in our chances of this actually going.
00:37:42.510 --> 00:37:47.309
When we don't look at it as God's church yet, that is a recipe for disaster.
00:37:47.309 --> 00:37:49.018
That's so important.
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:52.559
Yeah, I think it comes down to just remembering our identity.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:53.429
Who are we?
00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:55.318
We're children of God.
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:57.088
We belong to God's kingdom.
00:37:57.090 --> 00:37:58.559
We're leaders in God's kingdom.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:37:59.668
He's given us authority.
00:37:59.670 --> 00:38:02.278
He has given us the ability and the power to do this.
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:08.998
Not because we're good, but because He's good and He's with us. So let's go live that out.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:13.059
You know, like, if He's with us, who who could be against us?
00:38:13.059 --> 00:38:15.989
Like, you can't stop what God is doing in this world.
00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:19.469
And the fact that He's included us in this--. Like, let's just go.
00:38:19.469 --> 00:38:20.349
Enjoy the ride.
00:38:20.349 --> 00:38:26.639
Listen, I know it's like a mountain in front of you. I know it's so much work. I know there's a huge cost to being a disciple.
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.608
There's huge cost to making disciples. It's so much work.
00:38:29.610 --> 00:38:31.168
Yeah, it feels risky sometimes.
00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:36.628
But if God's called us to it, it's all going to work out in the end, and it's worth it.
00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:43.469
So I think just, we just need to remind ourselves. This is who we are. We're Kingdom of God people, so let's go live it out.
00:38:43.469 --> 00:38:54.298
Yeah, I think I agree with both both of you guys on your thoughts about it's God's church and that we actually just have to go out and do it believing that He's going to help us with it.
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:59.159
But, you know this, that making disciples is also inconvenient and uncomfortable sometimes.
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.987
And I think we've got to be okay with embracing that.
00:39:01.987 --> 00:39:12.369
That it's not just going to be a tidy 9 to 5 with a, you know, 9 to 5 Monday to Friday with a 9 to 11, and then leave me alone.
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:15.028
You know, don't don't talk to me.
00:39:15.030 --> 00:39:26.068
Because you're going to have to --. Because one of the things I tell people early on, and I'm trying to discern quickly, Are you trying to plant a church or are you trying to plant to service?
00:39:26.070 --> 00:39:34.929
Because how you're talking right now sounds like you just want to have people come to your church and and hear you talk.
00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:38.208
And I'm sure you have a lot of great things to say.
00:39:38.210 --> 00:39:45.539
And I think Sunday gatherings, or Wednesdays, or whatever your weekly gathering is, is super important.
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:55.739
But planting a church or doing a campus is so much more- or a micro church - is doing so much more than just organizing programs.
00:39:55.739 --> 00:40:12.119
It's doing life together with people, which means if we're about making disciples and that's the end goal and expanding the kingdom and we're pushing past the risk to do that, we also have to be aware that what we're signing up for is inconvenience.
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:18.268
And you know -- Michael, you put here in the notes -- it can be uncomfortable.
00:40:18.269 --> 00:40:22.679
And you get in tough spots having to try to figure things out.
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:29.009
But let's remember that God's with us in it and we don't have to do it alone.
00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:32.128
And you should never be doing a multiplication effort alone.
00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:38.338
There should be a team that you have there with you on site, but then there should also be a team behind you.
00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:50.608
One of the things we're trying to do in our fellowship is raise up a thousand people to pray every single month for church multiplication efforts in Canada.
00:40:50.610 --> 00:41:18.869
And the reason why we do that is I want a planter who has maybe 50 people at their church --and they're working hard and they're spending time with these people --And growing the church, people are getting saved and baptized. And they're on a gym floor. And they can they can get up with the confidence, knowing a thousand people prayed for them this month, and maybe even by name if they knew them. Like, just like -- I want you to know that you're never in this alone.
00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:23.969
And to me, that helps mitigate risk too, is that when you got other people around you--?
00:41:23.969 --> 00:41:25.498
So we got to do this together.
00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:28.708
It's true we are better together.
00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:29.878
John, we'll start with you.
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:36.958
Any final thoughts, any closing thoughts or encouragement? And then Michael, over to you and then we'll close off the podcast.
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:42.329
Well, I think just sort of echoing what Michael had said about understanding our own identity.
00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:53.528
If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, the most famous sermon in history, who did Jesus say was the light of the world? He said, You are the light of the world.
00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:55.838
He said, you are the salt of the earth.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.139
So God has given us this amazing calling.
00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:02.739
10, one of my favorite verses.
00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:05.679
You are God's masterpiece.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.179
Created anew in Christ, destined to do great things.
00:42:10.179 --> 00:42:13.478
And I think we need to take that and we need to own that.
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:17.349
And we demonstrate our faith by our obedience.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:19.478
Great. Thanks, John.
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:20.829
Michael, your thoughts?
00:42:20.829 --> 00:42:24.980
Yeah, I would just encourage everyone listening. It's worth it.
00:42:25.420 --> 00:42:32.289
The costs that we're paying by taking the risk and going through all the hard work, it's worth it for new disciples.
00:42:32.289 --> 00:42:36.068
You know, I was just -- just the other day, it was like 12,
00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:38.048
30 at night.
00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:40.208
Get a text. Hey, are you awake, Pastor?
00:42:40.210 --> 00:42:42.699
And it's someone who's been coming to church the last three months.
00:42:42.699 --> 00:42:46.059
New Christian, and just going through some relationship problems.
00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:48.219
So I'm like, Yeah, yeah, sure, we can call real quick.
00:42:48.219 --> 00:42:51.309
But it was great just having that call, just for 45 minutes.
00:42:51.309 --> 00:42:52.239
Just going through.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:53.409
Yeah. Well, what about this?
00:42:53.409 --> 00:42:56.409
You know, God thinks this of your relationship.
00:42:56.409 --> 00:43:00.608
You know, God would want you to do this in this area and this sort of thing. And just --.
00:43:00.610 --> 00:43:03.579
I remember just the emotional toll it was taking on me.
00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:13.579
But I remember hanging up that phone afterwards and just thinking about, here's a new Christian that's being discipled, learning what it means to follow Jesus, how to view things the way Jesus views things.
00:43:14.409 --> 00:43:26.739
And just thinking, yes, like this is what it's all about. This is why we do what we do. All of the hard work to get here, all worth it for moments like that. So I just want to encourage you. It is worth it.
00:43:26.739 --> 00:43:27.608
Keep going.
00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:28.778
You're doing great.
00:43:28.780 --> 00:43:36.518
Guys, thanks so much for being a part -- Michael, as always, for being co host and John, for jumping on as our guest today.
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:38.978
Thanks for being a part of this conversation.
00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:40.239
Thanks for having us.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:58.268
Well, we've got some resources for you at EveryChurch.ca. One of the things that we like to share are these free resources. We have something for you there called a Readiness Assessment. So maybe you're sitting there thinking, is our church ready to multiply?
00:43:58.269 --> 00:44:00.068
I want to push past this risk.
00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:10.268
I don't want this to be something that is an objection that we're allowing to get in our way of what God has for us.
00:44:10.269 --> 00:44:23.469
This Readiness Assessment might help you understand where your church is at. Lists off seven areas, that's just a quick self-assessment, that we think you need to be proficient in as a church to be a multiplying church.
00:44:23.469 --> 00:44:40.208
So there's a Readiness Assessment there for you at EveryChurch.ca. John and others are a part of ChurchVitalization.ca. So there's lots of things on just like keeping your church vital, good videos, good resources.
00:44:40.210 --> 00:44:43.358
There's modules, training that's available for you.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:44.798
So we want you to check that out.
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:58.628
ChurchVitalization.ca. And you're going to find a lot of great stuff there. One of the things we've discovered is that, in the first 3 to 4 years of church plants, we see a real uptick in salvation.
00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:05.619
But by year four and five, the church salvation numbers drop to that of existing churches.
00:45:05.619 --> 00:45:15.398
So you need to be constantly looking at how can we keep our systems in our processes and just our heart for evangelism going.
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.458
ChurchVitalization.ca will help you with that.
00:45:18.460 --> 00:45:27.039
Again, thanks so much for jumping on. We've only got one more objection that we're going to be talking about, and so hopefully you'll tune in for that.
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.188
Thanks so much for jumping on today and listening to our podcast.
00:45:30.190 --> 00:45:31.190
Have a great day.
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:33.458
Well, thanks for listening.
00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:36.309
Today we trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:45:36.309 --> 00:45:44.469
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email.
00:45:44.469 --> 00:45:45.469
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:45:47.619 --> 00:45:48.619
Until next time.
00:00:03.450 --> 00:00:04.589
Hey everyone.
00:00:04.589 --> 00:00:18.359
Welcome to the Multiple Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser and so grateful that you're joining us on number seven of our Eight Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication.
00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:22.138
It's part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative.
00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:30.989
We're asking all of our churches in our tribe to be multiplying churches by being planting churches or partnering churches.
00:00:30.989 --> 00:00:42.658
And we're trying to dismantle some of those objections with this podcast to help encourage our pastors and leaders to be multipliers and to lead multiplying churches.
00:00:42.659 --> 00:00:47.368
And thank goodness I don't have to host this podcast by myself.
00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:51.118
Michael Bronson is back with us again in this series.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.509
Michael, thanks so much for jumping on. How are you today?
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I'm doing well, Paul.
00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:56.368
I've missed you.
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I feel like it's been a long time.
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I feel like --.
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Why is it that we only hang out during these podcasts?
00:01:01.229 --> 00:01:02.189
What's going on here, Paul?
00:01:02.189 --> 00:01:02.893
What's going on?
00:01:02.895 --> 00:01:09.237
Well, probably the biggest reason is you live in one side of the country and I live on the other.
00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:09.906
Oh. yeah, yeah. Okay. I'll give you a pass on that.
00:01:09.906 --> 00:01:14.629
Yeah, Thank you. I do appreciate you leaning in so well.
00:01:14.629 --> 00:01:29.938
Michael, I thought our podcast was going viral a couple of weeks ago, only to find out that I think either one person was super eager, or a couple of people were super eager and downloaded every single one of our episodes.
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Or it was a bot.
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But either way, we're grateful for the stats. So thank you to the bot or the person.
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Appreciate you leaning in.
00:01:39.209 --> 00:01:56.849
So today we are talking about Objection Number Seven, which is it's too risky, the work is too hard, and it's risky to be involved in church multiplication. And to solve all of our problems, folks, we have a great guest today.
00:01:56.850 --> 00:02:18.359
John Albiston from Edmonton area and he works at the district office here. He's an effectiveness coach, is on our Multiply Network lead team and been a part of church multiplication and planting and multi sites and all sorts of things in helping churches get turnaround.
00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.718
John, thanks for coming on and helping us solve this problem.
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It's good to be here.
00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:24.989
It's good to have you.
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So let's jump in.
00:02:27.569 --> 00:02:35.729
What's the legitimate argument for the work is too hard. It's too risky to be involved in church multiplication.
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John, what do you think?
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What's the legitimacy here?
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I'm sure you've heard this before.
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Where do you think it finds its roots?
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Well, I think there's a difference between risk and being risky.
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And I think it's important to understand that.
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So pretty much every day I put myself in a several thousand pound metal box and go flying down the road at 110, 120 clicks.
00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.729
And there's risk in doing that.
00:03:07.729 --> 00:03:08.868
There's risk in driving.
00:03:08.870 --> 00:03:12.079
I make one wrong move and I'm dead. My family's dead.
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Other families are dead.
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Like, there's a significant amount of risk in driving, but that doesn't mean I have to be a risky driver.
00:03:19.819 --> 00:03:19.819
Right.
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Those are two very, very, very different things.
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There's things that I can do to significantly mitigate that risk.
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And the same thing with church planting.
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Yeah, there's risk in church planting, but that doesn't mean you have to be a risky church planter.
00:03:37.729 --> 00:03:39.229
Yeah, that's right.
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Michael, what do you think?
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Where's the legitimacy here?
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Where does this find its roots?
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Yeah. Well, we all have heard stories.
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The successful stories, which has been awesome, you know, of, This happened and this happened.
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It was so easy. But then you also hear the opposite end, where it's, Oh yeah, it totally failed.
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And now my family, you know, how do I provide for my family? What do I do here?
00:04:02.449 --> 00:04:09.019
And listen, like, church planting and being involved in church multiplication, it's hard work.
00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:12.229
And there's a cost and there's a sacrifice to it.
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And just like what John was saying, there is that risk behind it.
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But of course, we know - and this what we're gonna be talking about today - that it's obviously going to be worth it.
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And you know, I remember one of -- a great memory that I have of starting a church is I remember I was pushing a porta potty down the road to an event that we were doing. It got dropped off at the wrong spot.
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And, you know, people are honking at me driving by, this sort of thing.
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And I'm just thinking, Plant the church, they said. This will be great, they said. And, you know, later on that afternoon, I had to wear the Mario costume, you know, in the middle of the summer.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.259
It's so hot. It's like, this is, this is really hard work.
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And, you know, will people even come to this event that we're trying to run to show the kindness of who God is to the community?
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And like, it's, it's a risk.
00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:20.119
But I really like what you just said there, John. It doesn't have to be risky. And there's a difference between risk and riskiness. And, you know, I like to think of it as there's almost like a foolish risk where it's, okay, this is just almost incompetence. Why did you think that would work? That was just like you were so in the sky.
00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:21.139
Did you pray about that?
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Like, why are you doing that?
00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:27.468
Versus a healthy risk where it's, Okay, Lord, you're calling us to this.
00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:38.329
If this doesn't work out, we're in big trouble, but God, we're trusting you. So there's a big difference there between that healthy risk and foolish risk, which I'm excited to talk about today.
00:05:38.329 --> 00:05:51.709
Yeah, I think some of this argument pops up when the church planter or the church feels like they have an unusual amount of ownership for it.
00:05:51.709 --> 00:06:00.048
And not understanding that it's God who's actually the one who's taking the risk - because it's His church.
00:06:00.050 --> 00:06:00.949
We're obedient.
00:06:00.949 --> 00:06:05.579
And so when I hear people say it's too risky, I'm like, for who?
00:06:06.449 --> 00:06:13.168
If God-- if God's asking you to do it, then who is it actually risky for?
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Have you--?
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Maybe the risk is did you hear from God? And I guess that could be part of it.
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It's like, well, we want to be good stewards and don't want to mess it up.
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And I understand all those things.
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But I have found that people who get worked up about the risk factor, or the amount of hard work it takes, they've heard too many negative stories -- which, maybe that's our fault as organizational leaders sometimes, where we don't share enough positive stories -- or they're taking too much ownership in it.
00:06:46.341 --> 00:06:53.218
And it's becomes risky because now, if you own it, then you get the success for when it goes.
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But then you also have to own the failure when it doesn't go. And so I just think that this shows up sometimes- if we check our motives and we're using this as an argument not to plant - we have to ask ourselves, are we taking too much ownership in this?
00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:21.899
And can we just again, just push this towards obedience as opposed to making some sort of risk or risky endeavor?
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And so, you know, as we talk about this now - and I think we talked about a little bit already - where does this not hold water now?
00:07:29.829 --> 00:07:37.478
Like where does this not like, Okay-- You know, I shared a few things about, you know, ownership. John, where do you think this breaks down?
00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:43.178
Like that may be your argument, but it doesn't hold up.
00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:49.660
Well, there's definitely, like, ways to plant a church where you're greatly reducing that risk.
00:07:51.250 --> 00:08:05.439
When I look at a risky driver, what I'm looking at is someone who didn't take things very seriously and weren't very sober minded or sometimes not even literally sober.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:07.569
And that's why they're risky driver.
00:08:07.569 --> 00:08:16.899
And the same thing with a church plant is, quite frankly, there is a significant amount of responsibility and we have to be sober minded about it.
00:08:16.899 --> 00:08:27.399
And when we look at, Do I have a team, Do I have the calling, Do I have the skills in order to do that? Well, those are good questions to ask.
00:08:28.540 --> 00:08:35.168
Sometimes I think that questions of risk are ultimately questions of fear.
00:08:35.168 --> 00:08:41.078
And there are two unhealthy responses to fear that I see in church planting.
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that's scary so I'm going to run away.
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That's not a healthy response to fear.
00:08:47.950 --> 00:08:50.288
The other, and I see this too,
00:08:50.289 --> 00:08:53.210
that's scary so I'm going to ignore it.
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And so I see people going off to try to plant the church half cocked, and that's a risky church plant.
00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.458
That you haven't actually thought through things very much.
00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:08.188
You haven't made a lot of preparation.
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And now that's a risky plant.
00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.198
I think the best way of dealing with the fear is to go through the fear.
00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:22.960
And what I mean by that is if I'm a planter and, well, I'm afraid that nobody's going to come.
00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:28.058
Okay, let's go through that fear.
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Why are you afraid of that?
00:09:29.590 --> 00:09:34.269
Well, like, I haven't done things in the past that have really attracted crowds before.
00:09:34.269 --> 00:09:39.849
Okay, is there somebody out there who might know something that I don't who's good at this?
00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:47.168
Because now that I've identified, I'm not sure if I know how to get somebody to come. Well, now I know that there's a specific skill I need to acquire.
00:09:47.169 --> 00:09:54.339
There's specific partnerships I need to make, the specific coaches I need to connect with to help me with that fear.
00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:55.749
If my fear is, Well, you know what?
00:09:55.750 --> 00:09:59.048
I don't know if I can lead a stranger to Christ.
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Okay. Don't ignore that fear.
00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:01.639
That's important.
00:10:02.590 --> 00:10:04.538
That also is a skill set.
00:10:04.539 --> 00:10:09.158
Well, if you're not sure, is there any way you can gain that skill set? Are there coaches?
00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:14.499
Are there people that I can talk to who can teach me how to lead a stranger to Christ?
00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:16.928
You know, I'm not sure if we're going to have enough money.
00:10:16.929 --> 00:10:18.668
Okay. Don't ignore that fear.
00:10:18.669 --> 00:10:19.778
Go through that fear.
00:10:19.779 --> 00:10:22.869
Is there somebody I can talk to who can help me with the financing?
00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:29.139
But that is the healthy way of dealing with with fear is to go through the fear and face the fear.
00:10:29.139 --> 00:10:32.068
The cocky, 'I don't need to listen to anybody church plants'.
00:10:32.070 --> 00:10:33.668
Right. That's not courage.
00:10:33.669 --> 00:10:35.379
That's avoidance.
00:10:35.379 --> 00:10:37.869
And that's not the healthy way of dealing with things.
00:10:37.870 --> 00:10:43.269
John, I think you make a good point regarding risk and responsibility.
00:10:43.269 --> 00:10:48.458
Where there's a responsibility and that's where it might feel risky.
00:10:48.460 --> 00:10:58.789
And I thought that was a really good way to describe that, because I do think the responsibility can feel overwhelming, the responsibility can feel challenging and risky.
00:10:59.830 --> 00:11:04.989
But really, you can't avoid responsibility if you're launching out in this.
00:11:04.990 --> 00:11:12.729
There's going to be some responsibility that you have and it's going to create some fear, potentially. Love your thoughts around fear. Michael, your thoughts?
00:11:12.730 --> 00:11:17.649
Where do you think this objection isn't going to really stand the test of time?
00:11:17.649 --> 00:11:28.688
Yeah, and the reason why we're bringing it up today is because I think just as as humans, there's this natural tendency to think, no, this could go wrong.
00:11:28.690 --> 00:11:30.849
This could go wrong, this could go wrong.
00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:33.068
I remember hearing a story.
00:11:33.070 --> 00:11:37.629
This was before I planted a church where I think it was somewhere in the States.
00:11:37.629 --> 00:11:46.239
But there was 200 people on opening Sunday, you know. And, you know, this is --. They left, these two church planters left on top of the world. Wow.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:52.119
200 people believe in our in our vision of what God's doing in this community. This is so exciting.
00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:53.318
This is great.
00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:58.298
And then the next week, they come back. They they do it all over again for the next Sunday.
00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:05.979
And there were 35 people that showed up, and there's over 200 chairs set up for this congregation.
00:12:05.980 --> 00:12:15.399
And I was just hearing their story about how they were just so discouraged of, Oh, God, I thought you were doing this, but I guess you're not doing this and this sort of thing.
00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:23.889
And I guess it was more of their friends and family and well-wishers that came, or people from other churches that were trying to show that support.
00:12:23.889 --> 00:12:31.629
So I've got this story in the back of my mind as we're now starting this church and in Binbrook.
00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:34.239
And I went through the same thing when we started in Dundas.
00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:48.308
And I think anyone that's has planted a church kind of relates with this, or anyone that is in the process of planting the church relates with that feeling of absolute terror of, Okay, I've moved my family, I've quit my job.
00:12:48.309 --> 00:12:50.828
I've kind of put it all on the line here.
00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:54.636
But is this actually, is this actually going to work?
00:12:54.638 --> 00:13:02.619
And I really like what John said there, that we push through the fear. We don't run from it.
00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:03.908
We don't avoid it.
00:13:03.909 --> 00:13:11.379
You know what? This is actually a part of walking as a disciple of Jesus. He's asking us to do things that sometimes are terrifying.
00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:18.759
He asks us to do things sometimes that take that trust, and just that level of faith that we haven't been to before.
00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.688
We haven't had to show this level of faith yet in certain ways.
00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:27.849
And I think that's just part of being a disciple and especially being a leader in God's kingdom.
00:13:27.850 --> 00:13:33.399
You know, how how are we going to call others to take risks if we ourself aren't taking that risk?
00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:41.019
And, oh, I'm still stressed over thinking of that first day, of kinda how scary it was. But it's--.
00:13:41.019 --> 00:13:43.808
I love that. You push through the fear.
00:13:43.809 --> 00:13:45.139
It's yeah, it's --.
00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:49.359
Let's acknowledge there's going to be some fear here. There's going to be some risk here.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:50.798
It's going to be hard work.
00:13:50.799 --> 00:14:00.489
But you push through it knowing who God is, knowing that if God's called us to it, it's okay if 200 people come, it's okay if 35 people come.
00:14:00.490 --> 00:14:01.490
It's actually okay.
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.109
Right. And I think it's--.
00:14:05.110 --> 00:14:14.168
We were talking about this earlier, but I think almost we need to redefine what success is. Success isn't whether people come on a Sunday morning or not.
00:14:14.169 --> 00:14:15.158
It's not.
00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.870
It's not, oh, how many chairs did you have to set up?
00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:21.519
Success is, Okay, God, if you've asked me to do it.
00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:23.019
Okay, I'll do that.
00:14:23.019 --> 00:14:27.519
And I love what you were saying earlier,Paul, is the risk actually isn't mine to carry.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:32.198
And I actually don't need to stress over whether people come or not because I've done the work.
00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.089
I've gone through the process.
00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:38.499
I follow, as you said, God, I'm being obedient. So whatever happens, it's actually okay.
00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:41.229
It's actually success no matter where we land.
00:14:41.230 --> 00:14:56.438
Narratives around this argument objection actually are the fuel for it, I would say. Because the negative stories are like, Whoa, that was a lot of risk.
00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:04.629
But then also the positive ones, the rags to riches stories on church planting, I don't think help us either.
00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:09.879
And those are the ones that get staged. And they say, we could never be like them.
00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.649
We started in a garage with three people.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.729
I heard of one recently where they literally started in like a working barn.
00:15:18.730 --> 00:15:20.948
They couldn't find any other location.
00:15:20.950 --> 00:15:25.239
And now they're a church of thousands of people in several locations.
00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:27.489
Or I heard another one.
00:15:27.490 --> 00:15:37.509
They moved -- You talked about moved-- with just a few couples to a neighborhood that had no church. And they, you know, maxed out their credit cards for a sound system.
00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:38.773
And if God didn't show up --.
00:15:38.774 --> 00:15:44.969
And you're sitting there going, whoa, how could I ever be like them? That is crazy.
00:15:44.970 --> 00:15:46.979
And you never hear the stories
00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:55.769
we got an assessment. We got trained. We developed a launch plan and a launch team.
00:15:55.769 --> 00:15:57.479
We raised money.
00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.548
Had organizational partnership.
00:15:59.549 --> 00:16:00.804
We have ongoing coaching.
00:16:00.806 --> 00:16:05.938
And we have seen two or 3 or 4 churches start as a result.
00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:10.078
And we keep repeat--. Because it's not as glamorous.
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:21.269
And so I think part of it is we need to tell those stories of just, like, everyday people who went through the processes, did the right things.
00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:31.798
Because when I first heard of church planting, I heard of all the closures. One in every three closures, or eight out of ten churches that start close.
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:57.719
Let me share some stats with you from our Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada Fellowship from 2010 to 2020. That 88% of the self-governing churches we started in that decade were still around December 31st, 2019, and 90% of the closures of our churches in that ten year period were ten years or older.
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:04.979
I think -- I think we've figured out a way to do sustainable church planting.
00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:13.648
And I hear this right across the board. You know, John, we go to different conferences and we hear that the success is happening.
00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:22.885
And this idea of like, you can actually mitigate the risk with good planning, good steps of faith, good fundraising, good coaching, training, assessment, all of it.
00:17:22.886 --> 00:17:27.087
And you can see success.
00:17:27.088 --> 00:17:40.108
So, you know, again, I don't know --. I can understand hearing the negative stories, hearing the positive stories, how it could bring some tension and maybe fear into us.
00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:48.628
But when when I look at these stats I get encouraged and go, no, no, I the both the positive and the negative stories-- okay, great.
00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:57.509
They're great stories, the positive ones. Negative ones are sober reminders. But the mass majority of people in the middle are just like you did, Michael.
00:17:57.509 --> 00:18:02.489
You went through the process, you planted, you grew the church, you grew your team.
00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:04.558
Like any comments, Michael, on that?
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.078
Yeah. You know what that, what you just said, reminds me of.
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:14.009
I remember hearing a story of Ed Stetzer, who has written a couple of books on church planting. He's planted a couple of churches sort of thing.
00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:19.259
He was at a conference once with two other church planters, so there's three church planters on stage.
00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:25.068
And yeah, the one was a megachurch and we started from nothing and look- 5000 people.
00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:32.848
And then the other one is that, yeah, we started, we put our house-- we remortgaged our house and now there's 10,000 people.
00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:44.308
And then I got to Ed's part and he said he just really felt for the average church planter in the room that these stories, as incredible as there are, they actually might be pretty discouraging.
00:18:44.309 --> 00:18:47.519
So he was like, I'm just going to be fully honest with what my story was.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:56.308
He said, yeah, we worked with our denomination, went through the process, and our church plant's about 65, 75 people.
00:18:56.309 --> 00:18:57.328
And you know what, though?
00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:03.328
We've been baptizing people and people have been moving in and looking for a church and there's new disciples being made.
00:19:03.329 --> 00:19:12.778
And yeah, it's not a glamorous story, but the Kingdom of God is moving forward. And I just remember listening to that and just like they were almost like, this was this weight.
00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:16.048
It was like, I don't need to be at the megachurch.
00:19:16.049 --> 00:19:21.179
I don't need to be, you know, all these legendary pastors with the epic stories.
00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:24.509
Am I just being faithful in what God's doing?
00:19:24.509 --> 00:19:26.699
Am I just trying to listen, God, what are you doing?
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.348
Okay, let me go do that.
00:19:28.349 --> 00:19:37.769
Even if the numbers are not thousands of people, even if it's just tens of people or dozens of people. You know, in some context starting off, even just 1 or 2 people to start.
00:19:37.769 --> 00:19:38.608
Perfect.
00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:40.709
Like, that's actually okay.
00:19:40.710 --> 00:19:42.808
And I don't think we talk about that enough.
00:19:42.809 --> 00:19:43.798
John, what do you think?
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:56.219
Like when you when you hear, you know, some of those rags to riches stories or the negative ones, what comes to your mind about this narrative around church multiplication being risky?
00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:59.338
Or you need to be risky for it to be successful?
00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:01.318
Well, I mean, you need to take risk.
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:15.419
Like I don't think we need to be risky because that's being irresponsible. And I mean, I think-- when I think of some of the negative stories, the negative stories that I know of personally, where things didn't work out is because people were being risky.
00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:18.868
They weren't going through assessment. They didn't have a plan.
00:20:18.869 --> 00:20:20.608
They weren't looking for coaching.
00:20:20.609 --> 00:20:25.353
And quite frankly, they weren't teachable. Like, I mean, that's such an important character thing-- Oh,my goodness.
00:20:25.354 --> 00:20:33.598
-- to develop as a church planter and quite frankly, as a pastor, if you're going to succeed as a pastor, a teachable heart. You know, these cocky don't tell me what to do.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.009
I know what I'm going to do.
00:20:35.009 --> 00:20:37.409
Those are the ones who crash and burn.
00:20:37.410 --> 00:20:41.638
But, I mean, there's things we can learn. I mean, when someone goes off half cocked, I have no plan.
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:42.949
I have no strategy.
00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:46.489
I have no coaching and I'm just going to do things my way.
00:20:46.490 --> 00:20:47.868
Don't bother me with any of that.
00:20:47.869 --> 00:20:49.249
And then they the crash and burn.
00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:51.078
Okay, pay attention to that.
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.449
Don't be like that guy.
00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:57.108
If you're going to plant a church, get coaching.
00:20:57.109 --> 00:20:59.419
Build a good team.
00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:00.769
Arrange good finance.
00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:07.368
I mean, there's things you can do that greatly, greatly, greatly improve your chances of success.
00:21:07.369 --> 00:21:10.729
Again, just like me driving to the office.
00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:16.699
There's a lot of things that I do that greatly improve my chance of making it to the office alive.
00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:24.078
You know, Am I drunk or high? No. Okay, well, that's one step. Is my car falling apart? Are my brake lights not working?
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.828
Well, making sure the car's in working order. That's another step.
00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:29.055
Did I ever read the driver's manual?
00:21:29.056 --> 00:21:30.569
Do I know the rules of the road?
00:21:30.570 --> 00:21:36.378
Did I, you know, get a driver's license? Am I distracted?
00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:45.019
I mean, there's so many things that I do that reduce the risk so that, quite frankly, I can drive to the office safely. And we all do this.
00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:53.598
Church planting isn't that much different. There are things that we can do to reduce that risk.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.259
Now, is God the one who's always powering things?
00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.598
Yes. So we should never take, you know, credit.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:06.229
You know, as the Bible says, Paul planted Apollos watered, but God makes the seed grow.
00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:11.690
But that doesn't mean that Paul and Apollos, you know, just sat back and did nothing and God just made seeds grow.
00:22:12.769 --> 00:22:18.439
Every single farmer on the planet, there's like there's no farmer on the planet who can make a seed grow.
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:34.699
But it doesn't mean that the farmer doesn't have a job to do, you know? And if the job is--. If the farmer is diligent and has thought through, Okay, I need to till the soil, I need to plant the seeds, I need to water the seeds, I need to pull the weeds.
00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:36.858
Boy, those seeds grow a lot more.
00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:39.739
And same thing as a pastor and as a church planter.
00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:46.429
If we take care of our responsibilities, God's going to come in and He's going to make the seeds grow.
00:22:46.430 --> 00:22:50.778
We can count on Him. Just like the farmer can count on God to make the seed grow.
00:22:50.779 --> 00:22:52.969
So long as the farmer does his part.
00:22:52.970 --> 00:22:56.598
We just have to do our part and not go off half cocked.
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:05.028
Yeah. No, that's good. Because one of the things I was going to ask and you kind of answered it is how do we mitigate risk?
00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:13.859
And you know, some of the things I mentioned, you mentioned, can help mitigate risk when churches and leaders think about planting and multiplying.
00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:22.759
But the risk is so -- I don't know how to phrase this -- but the risk is, are we going to be successful or not?
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:23.719
Isn't that it?
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:29.719
Like, isn't that what the risk is about? Like, the risk isn't like, Oh, we started.
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:34.098
The risk is, Did we start and were we successful?
00:23:34.099 --> 00:23:40.759
And one of the things that I think might help us get through this objection is redefining success.
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:45.949
Michael, do you have any thoughts about what we can do to maybe redefine success?
00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:48.409
Yeah, well, it's like we were talking earlier, right?
00:23:48.410 --> 00:23:59.128
And we've probably talked about this on previous podcasts and this sort of thing. But what we need to do is we need to be prophetic leaders. We need to be people who are listening to God's voice.
00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:01.669
Okay God, where are you actually leading us to?
00:24:01.670 --> 00:24:02.959
And then we do it.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:16.038
And then, like we've been talking about this whole episode, is that God takes ownership over success. You know, and whatever happens, it's actually okay as long as we're following God's Spirit, as long as we're keeping in step with God's Spirit.
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:21.439
And, you know, I love the stories in Scripture as the examples given to us.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:28.878
Like you've got Paul, who would go from city to city, you know, starting these churches with his friends and with his team and this sort of thing.
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:37.278
But the one time he's stoned to death outside of the city and it's kind of like, yeah, real successful, Paul. Great job.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.118
You're there bloody and beaten up and broken.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.358
But I just love how even through that, what does Paul do?
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:54.709
He gets back up and goes back to the city, you know, and encourages the church that's there and encourages the leaders that are there. So success looks so different for different people.
00:24:54.710 --> 00:25:00.969
The point is, are we doing what God wants us to be doing? And listen, in that story, yeah, it's hard work.
00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:11.688
Like, that wasn't easy -- or I'm assuming here -- that wasn't easy for Paul to stand back up again, covered, beaten, covered in blood, and just walk boldly back into that city.
00:25:11.689 --> 00:25:13.189
Like, it takes courage.
00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:14.479
It takes faith.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:20.269
It takes looking at that risk and saying, I'm going to push through this, But at the end of the day, it's not on our shoulders.
00:25:20.269 --> 00:25:22.920
Whether it's successful or not, it's completely on God's.
00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:31.298
John, you've worked with lots of churches in around, but then also with planting, you've had experience in that.
00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:42.669
You and I have chatted about how metrics need to change probably, and how we need to be thinking about what does successful church look like.
00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:44.469
Can you talk to that a little bit?
00:25:44.470 --> 00:26:08.740
And then also how it actually looks for an individual church to like--. So, for example, a church in a small town in rural Alberta probably can't have the same production, whatever, same impact, or even the same call, as maybe a church in a suburban area to reach and, you know --.
00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:15.348
Can you talk about what those metrics might need to be in the future, to shift?
00:26:15.349 --> 00:26:27.979
And then also talk about how individual success matters? Because in the end, God's going to ask us were we faithful with what we were asked to do, not being faithful with someone else's call.
00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.709
Yeah, I think that's a great question, Paul.
00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:38.088
I think when it comes to metrics, the most helpful metrics -- sometimes people call them lead metrics.
00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:43.759
Are we measuring the things that are most likely to lead to the results we want?
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.778
And so let's take evangelism as an example.
00:26:47.779 --> 00:26:55.019
Now, I have exactly zero control over whether somebody responds to the gospel.
00:26:56.170 --> 00:27:00.128
Now, I care if they respond to the gospel, but I've got zero control.
00:27:00.130 --> 00:27:04.598
But what I do have control over is, Am I initiating conversations?
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:14.709
And so we want to measure the things that we have control over, that have the potential to lead to the salvations.
00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:25.838
So, instead of necessarily focusing on measuring the salvation, which I have no control over, why don't I measure how many times I present the gospel?
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.999
Why don't I measure the number of times that I'm trying to connect with people?
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:37.868
Because those are the things that really matter. And I mean, the two are definitely linked, but one is my responsibility.
00:27:37.869 --> 00:27:40.118
The others is their responsibility.
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:41.439
God's responsibility.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.838
I don't have much to do about that.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.048
But I can measure the things that I do.
00:27:47.049 --> 00:27:50.949
And I think those are the most important things for us to measure.
00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:54.338
Sometimes people call it about celebrating the attempt.
00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:55.898
Like, did you get up to the plate?
00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:57.489
Did you swing the bat?
00:27:57.490 --> 00:28:02.618
Because if you never get up to the plate and you never swinging the back, guess what? You're not going to hit any homeruns.
00:28:02.619 --> 00:28:11.409
But let's celebrate our part of the responsibility and not worry as much about how other people are responding.
00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:12.939
If that makes any sense.
00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.288
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:14.289 --> 00:28:19.449
And then also just talk about how, you know, your call is going to be different than someone else's.
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:31.929
And I think Howard Hendricks said this - Dr. Howard Hendricks said, comparison is the highest form of carnality, meaning we're never more human than when we're comparing.
00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:41.888
And I think that gets -- that becomes a real challenge, especially for church planters, when they hear the big stories, the rags to riches stories.
00:28:41.890 --> 00:28:47.380
How do you encourage a planter or a church to stay at it, to be faithful?
00:28:49.089 --> 00:28:54.608
Because sometimes it does take a while for that crop, that harvest to grow.
00:28:54.609 --> 00:29:02.920
Well, I think just when we talked a little bit about facing your fears and going through them, same thing is when you're facing challenges and difficulties.
00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:05.858
To face them and going through them.
00:29:05.859 --> 00:29:12.969
So, if there's a specific issue in your church plant that you're struggling with, nobody's ever coming.
00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:14.739
Okay, well, don't ignore that.
00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:16.148
Don't run away from that.
00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:24.298
But ask, Do I know a coach who's had some success at dealing with that issue?
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:28.108
Do I know another pastor who's had success at dealing with that issue?
00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:32.189
Is there something I can learn from them in order to deal with that?
00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:43.469
If we've got a problem- and this is a problem a number of churches have - where, no, no, no, we get lots of people who come, but they only come once and they never come back.
00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:46.338
Okay, that is unfortunate.
00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:47.759
But don't ignore that.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.278
Go through that.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:57.019
Okay, how can I find out with through connections with other church planters, other pastors, with coaches.
00:29:57.019 --> 00:29:59.690
Can you help me figure out what's going wrong here?
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:03.558
Can you help me figure out how to solve this issue?
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:11.298
But it's always going to be looking--. Like if something's not going according to expectation, don't ignore that.
00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:13.398
First, pray about it.
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:17.148
But then, like, don't hold the rest of the body of Christ in contempt.
00:30:17.150 --> 00:30:22.969
I mean, we're a body of Christ for a reason. We're supposed to rely on each other. We're supposed to depend on each other.
00:30:22.970 --> 00:30:25.878
We're supposed to teach and coach and encourage each other.
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:31.519
So if we are facing a challenge in a certain area in our church plant, hey, reach out to the body.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.838
That's what we're here for.
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:40.699
Yeah. And I totally agree with that, that don't actually be in competition with someone because you're actually on the same team.
00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:54.588
So, like, if that that leader that knows how to grow a church and knows how to keep first time guests and you know on ramp people with good evangelism and all of that, reach out.
00:30:54.589 --> 00:30:57.709
You know, you're not -- you can't be great at everything.
00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:01.066
And sometimes we ask planters and --.
00:31:01.067 --> 00:31:06.420
That's why it's so important to plant with the team, because you can't be all things to all people.
00:31:07.539 --> 00:31:07.682
Oh, absolutely.
00:31:07.683 --> 00:31:12.288
You need you need help and--. No, that's really, really good.
00:31:12.289 --> 00:31:20.719
Michael, you have a scripture for us that that ties into this thing, this topic we are discussing today.
00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:22.638
Yes, that's right.
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.898
So for all of us wondering, is it worth the risk?
00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:28.098
You know, it's way too risky.
00:31:28.099 --> 00:31:29.388
It's way too hard to do.
00:31:29.390 --> 00:31:31.249
Like, is this really worth it?
00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:32.929
I just want to read you Hebrews
00:31:32.930 --> 00:31:34.098
6.
00:31:34.099 --> 00:31:35.328
And this is a classic verse.
00:31:35.329 --> 00:31:36.618
We all know it.
00:31:36.619 --> 00:31:47.598
It says, And without faith, it is impossible to please God because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:54.858
And it's just, it's a very blunt statement, right? If you want to please God, it's going to take faith.
00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:55.969
It's it's going to--.
00:31:55.970 --> 00:31:57.642
And faith shows trust, right?
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:05.838
And I know it's a difficult question that we have to ask ourselves, and it kind of hurts if we're actually being honest.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:14.989
But in this area of multiplication, do we trust God that He's going to come through? If He's leading us to something do we really trust that He's able to do it?
00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:17.689
Do we really trust that it's going to be worth it in the end?
00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:24.318
Do we really trust that the hard work, that there's this reward on the other side that actually was worth going through?
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:32.538
And, you know, I think I would challenge every single person listening today. Let's honestly ask ourselves, do we have the faith for that? Do we have the trust for that?
00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:38.369
And and if not, we probably we probably need to push ourselves on that and challenge ourselves on that.
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:47.568
Yeah, like, I can almost hear someone out there saying, Well, if I have total faith and trust in God, is there any risk involved?
00:32:48.609 --> 00:32:51.270
But boy, I mean, that would that's an interesting --.
00:32:51.271 --> 00:32:53.358
You know, that's an interesting thing to think about.
00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:03.660
Like, if I am so convinced that God has spoke, that He is faithful and I totally trust Him, where's the risk then?
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.098
Like, where is the risk?
00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:10.818
And Lord, help my faith. I want to be there.
00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:13.818
I want to have that kind of -- that kind of level.
00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:14.659
And you know what?
00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:21.679
I talk with some people - and I could list off the names of them and you would know them - that that's how they live.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.538
God's going to come through.
00:33:23.539 --> 00:33:24.616
I am so convinced.
00:33:24.617 --> 00:33:26.598
This isn't a risk.
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.935
We have to do this, or we're planting this, or we're going here, and I'm convinced that God --.
00:33:30.936 --> 00:33:34.578
And it just like, I'm amazed at their faith.
00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:39.618
Yeah. And can we just affirm every person who has planted a church listening to this right now?
00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:46.338
Is that, yeah, it may be scary during, but the fact that you did it shows you believed God could do it.
00:33:46.339 --> 00:33:48.229
So just Gold Star.
00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:48.348
Well done. Thumbs up. High five. Well done.
00:33:48.349 --> 00:33:52.398
Ten points. You get ten points.
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.548
You redeemed them at the end of the podcast for something.
00:33:55.549 --> 00:33:59.808
So here's the objection we've been, you know, batting around
00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:06.469
The work is too hard and risky to be involved in church multiplication.
00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:10.157
It's God's church.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.637
So it's His risk and our obedience.
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:22.548
And -- and I love this -- the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of church multiplication.
00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:33.619
This week, I've had 3 or 4 conversations of people who are going to be planting a church or kicking tires on it.
00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:45.768
And as I kind of overview the process and all the different things they have to do and the, you know, the coaching, the training, the fundraising and all these different things and you just see the look on their face like, Whoa, this is this is big.
00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.349
This is a big step.
00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:49.141
And I remind them.
00:34:49.141 --> 00:35:02.119
I say, Okay, close your eyes for a second and I want you to picture that first mom and dad with their family that come to your church. Someone invited them, and they respond to Jesus for the first time.
00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:13.219
That young adult, that college career student that's struggling, can't find community, you know, trying to explore everything in the world and finding hopelessness and empty.
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:16.548
And they hear a message of the gospel and respond.
00:35:16.550 --> 00:35:22.849
I want you to picture that first person that comes to Jesus in your church plant.
00:35:22.849 --> 00:35:24.409
What are you going to say?
00:35:24.409 --> 00:35:27.239
And they almost always say it will be worth it.
00:35:28.449 --> 00:35:30.039
It's worth it.
00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:32.289
And that's what we have to keep front and center.
00:35:32.289 --> 00:35:35.018
It's not --. Jesus didn't actually tell us to plant churches.
00:35:35.019 --> 00:35:37.809
He told us to make disciples and expand the kingdom.
00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:44.378
That's what church -- church multiplication has to be, always be, in service of that.
00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:56.648
So if we believe that it's God's church, so it's His risk and our obedience, and the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of multiplication.
00:35:56.650 --> 00:36:01.119
Since we believe this, what are some next steps, John, that we need to do?
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:11.239
The understanding that it's God's church, I think is really important on a number of different levels, but one of them even is connected to the issue of risk.
00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:35.409
When I look at unsuccessful church plants, the attitude of the planter wasn't that this is God's church, but it was that this was my church, and I was going to plant the kind of church that I thought was the right thing to do that's going to do things my way.
00:36:35.409 --> 00:36:54.260
And it's been a real preference driven church. And I remember one night -- and actually you might even have been there, Paul, this was years ago at an assessment in Calgary -- the church planter's motivation for planting a church is, Finally there's going to be a church that's going to do church doctrine my way.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:03.159
Man, that's --. When the church becomes all about your church and doing things your way --.
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:07.688
Man, you just took the risk element and just shot it through the roof.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:10.735
That is really, really risky.
00:37:10.735 --> 00:37:33.909
When it's God's church, the risk goes down dramatically, not only because it's God's strong arm that's fueling the church, but when we start doing things God's way and we lower our pride and are doing things in submission to Him and we're having those open and teachable hearts.
00:37:33.909 --> 00:37:41.679
Boy, that makes such a difference in our chances of this actually going.
00:37:42.510 --> 00:37:47.309
When we don't look at it as God's church yet, that is a recipe for disaster.
00:37:47.309 --> 00:37:49.018
That's so important.
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:52.559
Yeah, I think it comes down to just remembering our identity.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:53.429
Who are we?
00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:55.318
We're children of God.
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:57.088
We belong to God's kingdom.
00:37:57.090 --> 00:37:58.559
We're leaders in God's kingdom.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:37:59.668
He's given us authority.
00:37:59.670 --> 00:38:02.278
He has given us the ability and the power to do this.
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:08.998
Not because we're good, but because He's good and He's with us. So let's go live that out.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:13.059
You know, like, if He's with us, who who could be against us?
00:38:13.059 --> 00:38:15.989
Like, you can't stop what God is doing in this world.
00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:19.469
And the fact that He's included us in this--. Like, let's just go.
00:38:19.469 --> 00:38:20.349
Enjoy the ride.
00:38:20.349 --> 00:38:26.639
Listen, I know it's like a mountain in front of you. I know it's so much work. I know there's a huge cost to being a disciple.
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.608
There's huge cost to making disciples. It's so much work.
00:38:29.610 --> 00:38:31.168
Yeah, it feels risky sometimes.
00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:36.628
But if God's called us to it, it's all going to work out in the end, and it's worth it.
00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:43.469
So I think just, we just need to remind ourselves. This is who we are. We're Kingdom of God people, so let's go live it out.
00:38:43.469 --> 00:38:54.298
Yeah, I think I agree with both both of you guys on your thoughts about it's God's church and that we actually just have to go out and do it believing that He's going to help us with it.
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:59.159
But, you know this, that making disciples is also inconvenient and uncomfortable sometimes.
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.987
And I think we've got to be okay with embracing that.
00:39:01.987 --> 00:39:12.369
That it's not just going to be a tidy 9 to 5 with a, you know, 9 to 5 Monday to Friday with a 9 to 11, and then leave me alone.
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:15.028
You know, don't don't talk to me.
00:39:15.030 --> 00:39:26.068
Because you're going to have to --. Because one of the things I tell people early on, and I'm trying to discern quickly, Are you trying to plant a church or are you trying to plant to service?
00:39:26.070 --> 00:39:34.929
Because how you're talking right now sounds like you just want to have people come to your church and and hear you talk.
00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:38.208
And I'm sure you have a lot of great things to say.
00:39:38.210 --> 00:39:45.539
And I think Sunday gatherings, or Wednesdays, or whatever your weekly gathering is, is super important.
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:55.739
But planting a church or doing a campus is so much more- or a micro church - is doing so much more than just organizing programs.
00:39:55.739 --> 00:40:12.119
It's doing life together with people, which means if we're about making disciples and that's the end goal and expanding the kingdom and we're pushing past the risk to do that, we also have to be aware that what we're signing up for is inconvenience.
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:18.268
And you know -- Michael, you put here in the notes -- it can be uncomfortable.
00:40:18.269 --> 00:40:22.679
And you get in tough spots having to try to figure things out.
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:29.009
But let's remember that God's with us in it and we don't have to do it alone.
00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:32.128
And you should never be doing a multiplication effort alone.
00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:38.338
There should be a team that you have there with you on site, but then there should also be a team behind you.
00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:50.608
One of the things we're trying to do in our fellowship is raise up a thousand people to pray every single month for church multiplication efforts in Canada.
00:40:50.610 --> 00:41:18.869
And the reason why we do that is I want a planter who has maybe 50 people at their church --and they're working hard and they're spending time with these people --And growing the church, people are getting saved and baptized. And they're on a gym floor. And they can they can get up with the confidence, knowing a thousand people prayed for them this month, and maybe even by name if they knew them. Like, just like -- I want you to know that you're never in this alone.
00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:23.969
And to me, that helps mitigate risk too, is that when you got other people around you--?
00:41:23.969 --> 00:41:25.498
So we got to do this together.
00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:28.708
It's true we are better together.
00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:29.878
John, we'll start with you.
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:36.958
Any final thoughts, any closing thoughts or encouragement? And then Michael, over to you and then we'll close off the podcast.
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:42.329
Well, I think just sort of echoing what Michael had said about understanding our own identity.
00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:53.528
If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, the most famous sermon in history, who did Jesus say was the light of the world? He said, You are the light of the world.
00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:55.838
He said, you are the salt of the earth.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.139
So God has given us this amazing calling.
00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:02.739
10, one of my favorite verses.
00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:05.679
You are God's masterpiece.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.179
Created anew in Christ, destined to do great things.
00:42:10.179 --> 00:42:13.478
And I think we need to take that and we need to own that.
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:17.349
And we demonstrate our faith by our obedience.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:19.478
Great. Thanks, John.
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:20.829
Michael, your thoughts?
00:42:20.829 --> 00:42:24.980
Yeah, I would just encourage everyone listening. It's worth it.
00:42:25.420 --> 00:42:32.289
The costs that we're paying by taking the risk and going through all the hard work, it's worth it for new disciples.
00:42:32.289 --> 00:42:36.068
You know, I was just -- just the other day, it was like 12,
00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:38.048
30 at night.
00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:40.208
Get a text. Hey, are you awake, Pastor?
00:42:40.210 --> 00:42:42.699
And it's someone who's been coming to church the last three months.
00:42:42.699 --> 00:42:46.059
New Christian, and just going through some relationship problems.
00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:48.219
So I'm like, Yeah, yeah, sure, we can call real quick.
00:42:48.219 --> 00:42:51.309
But it was great just having that call, just for 45 minutes.
00:42:51.309 --> 00:42:52.239
Just going through.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:53.409
Yeah. Well, what about this?
00:42:53.409 --> 00:42:56.409
You know, God thinks this of your relationship.
00:42:56.409 --> 00:43:00.608
You know, God would want you to do this in this area and this sort of thing. And just --.
00:43:00.610 --> 00:43:03.579
I remember just the emotional toll it was taking on me.
00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:13.579
But I remember hanging up that phone afterwards and just thinking about, here's a new Christian that's being discipled, learning what it means to follow Jesus, how to view things the way Jesus views things.
00:43:14.409 --> 00:43:26.739
And just thinking, yes, like this is what it's all about. This is why we do what we do. All of the hard work to get here, all worth it for moments like that. So I just want to encourage you. It is worth it.
00:43:26.739 --> 00:43:27.608
Keep going.
00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:28.778
You're doing great.
00:43:28.780 --> 00:43:36.518
Guys, thanks so much for being a part -- Michael, as always, for being co host and John, for jumping on as our guest today.
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:38.978
Thanks for being a part of this conversation.
00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:40.239
Thanks for having us.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:58.268
Well, we've got some resources for you at EveryChurch.ca. One of the things that we like to share are these free resources. We have something for you there called a Readiness Assessment. So maybe you're sitting there thinking, is our church ready to multiply?
00:43:58.269 --> 00:44:00.068
I want to push past this risk.
00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:10.268
I don't want this to be something that is an objection that we're allowing to get in our way of what God has for us.
00:44:10.269 --> 00:44:23.469
This Readiness Assessment might help you understand where your church is at. Lists off seven areas, that's just a quick self-assessment, that we think you need to be proficient in as a church to be a multiplying church.
00:44:23.469 --> 00:44:40.208
So there's a Readiness Assessment there for you at EveryChurch.ca. John and others are a part of ChurchVitalization.ca. So there's lots of things on just like keeping your church vital, good videos, good resources.
00:44:40.210 --> 00:44:43.358
There's modules, training that's available for you.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:44.798
So we want you to check that out.
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:58.628
ChurchVitalization.ca. And you're going to find a lot of great stuff there. One of the things we've discovered is that, in the first 3 to 4 years of church plants, we see a real uptick in salvation.
00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:05.619
But by year four and five, the church salvation numbers drop to that of existing churches.
00:45:05.619 --> 00:45:15.398
So you need to be constantly looking at how can we keep our systems in our processes and just our heart for evangelism going.
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.458
ChurchVitalization.ca will help you with that.
00:45:18.460 --> 00:45:27.039
Again, thanks so much for jumping on. We've only got one more objection that we're going to be talking about, and so hopefully you'll tune in for that.
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.188
Thanks so much for jumping on today and listening to our podcast.
00:45:30.190 --> 00:45:31.190
Have a great day.
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:33.458
Well, thanks for listening.
00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:36.309
Today we trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:45:36.309 --> 00:45:44.469
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email.
00:45:44.469 --> 00:45:45.469
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:45:47.619 --> 00:45:48.619
Until next time.
