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Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast.
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My name is Paul Fraser.
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So grateful you've taken the time to tune in today.
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I trust that your 2023 is off to a fantastic start and this podcast finds you very well.
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Just want to make
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If you haven't checked it out already, we have a resource website that we created with you in mind - with planters, multipliers, pastors, leaders in church world.
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We wanted to create some resources, so we've done a bunch of videos on a ton of different topics and it's all on PAOCMultiply.com.
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It's there for you to check out, for you to use with your teams.
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And so we hope that there may be a few that you can use.
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And I think this will help get your 2023 off to a great start. So check it out.
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PAOCMultiply.com.
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Very excited to have a friend of mine on this month's Multiply Network podcast.
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His name is James Clarence.
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I've known him for a very long time.
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He works at First Assembly Church in Calgary and has been working with Next Gen youth and young adults for a number of years now and they're doing some exciting things in their church.
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They have both a youth ministry school and a young adult ministry school in their church, and I love some of the topics they cover. I love how they're developing and discipling and reaching the next generation.
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And so we talk about the rule of life and developing healthy rhythms.
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And so that's some of the things they're making sure that their students know.
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How to live on a mission.
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They're not just in the classroom, they're also in the community.
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They're hungry for the scriptures.
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And then, James also walks us through some things that they're finding helpful to reach the next generation.
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And there's not one leader out there that is not kind of baffled, at times, on how to reach the next generation.
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And so there's some helpful things here.
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I hope you stick around right to the end, because I know you're going to be encouraged.
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The interview is coming up right now.
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Hey, James, welcome to the Multiply Network podcast.
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Hi, Paul. Nice to be here.
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Dude, It's so great to have you.
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Been awesome and an honor watching your journey all these years in ministry, as a teenager growing up.
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So great to have you on today to talk about Next Gen ministry.
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I know it's a huge passion for you.
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Going to just kind of set a context for our conversation, and then obviously going to get you to jump in.
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Big vision from PAOC
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reaching, developing and discipling millennials and younger.
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And so we're really excited about leaning into that. We have some strategic initiatives.
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I was on a call yesterday - Shayla Visser from Alpha, kind of unpacking the latest StatsCan survey that was related to religious affiliation in Canada.
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It's doubled in 20 years - Like the Nones, the Dones - Secularity has doubled in 20 years.
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And, you know, we could be discouraged by that. But I think there's also an opportunity there.
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There's a lot of kids growing up in homes that have no context of Christianity, and I like how she framed it.
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We're not in a post-Christian -- potentially be in a pre-Christian.
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And so we're going to talk about reaching them and then also how to disciple them.
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They talked about --Shayla yesterday, talked about how there's a huge difference between some foundational beliefs in teenagers around the world and then a 20 point difference for us in Canada.
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So when I say all this to you, just initial thoughts, what are you thinking?
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What are you seeing?
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Let's maybe start with the reaching side.
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Yeah.
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No, I think it's a really good point in terms of the rise of the Nones.
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The beautiful part is they have no connection to, perhaps, some of the cultural Christianity that people got turned off by, or just things that were not healthy - perhaps a part of the church - that has pushed a lot of people out of the, you know, religion is bad or whatever.
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It's like, these these young people- Gen-Alpha, Gen Zs - they have no clue.
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So it's a neutral playing field in many ways, where we can actually then introduce the idea of how Jesus brings identity, Jesus brings hope, Jesus brings life, and they're like, really?
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Like, Oh, wow, They don't have this like, Oh, Jesus, that's the guy that's trying to make your life boring, or rules, or whatever, whatever.
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It's just clean slate.
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So there's so much opportunity in that to be able to share and just exemplify the life of Jesus for them and make it attractive. Make it beautiful.
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Yeah. So they don't have a negative experience with church.
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They just have zero experience with church, with Jesus.
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So you work at First Assembly Calgary, oversee--- Well, why don't you tell us what your what your role is and how it's evolving.
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And what are you seeing?
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Yeah. So yeah, I oversee Next Gen at my church -- Shout Out, First Assembly-- and I basically oversee kids, youth, young adults, our ministry schools, and a number of other little random things.
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And the thing that I'm noticing most often is, we're seeing a lot of millennial parents that perhaps weren't discipled, struggling to understand, How do I even have the conversations with my kid? How do I disciple my own children?
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And I'm a millennial parent, and that's the questions even that I have. And of course, I can think back to what my parents did, but a lot of people didn't necessarily have the opportunity to be discipled. By my parents being pastors, this was their job in many areas.
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It was like parents just trying to figure it out, trying to make it.
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And one of the things that we're noticing in our church is we have a huge demographic of international first generation immigrants, second generation, and they- in the homes that they grew up in and in their countries of origin - they did, family did discipleship in a much more intentional way.
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And maybe it was just proximity, or like, the amount of times like 'the church four nights a week!' which is what I grew up with - You know, Sunday school in the afternoon, VBS, Wee College, go down the list.
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What we're seeing is a cry from that part of our congregation to say'we want to be discipled'.
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We want to grow.
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We're hungry for this.
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We are not mad - or like, you know, perhaps it's not every opportunity is shaped around discipleship, but they're saying, 'We want this, we're hungry for this', which then gives us the opportunity to then relook at, 'Hey, how are we actually doing this?' Because I think, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is in pretty much every other lane of society - whether it be school, K-12, sports, you know, all the different hockey levels or karate and the different black belts- there's a progression and a process or a curriculum that helps guide people along the journey of whatever that is.
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But when we think about our church in the west, sometimes it's like, is there any sort of guide?
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Is there any sort of curriculum? Is there any sort of, whatever? And, you know, back in the day there was like Awana, or Kids Club, or --.
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I grew up with Crusaders.
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Crusaders, yeah. I don't know if you can use that anymore.
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Terrible name.
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Yeah, like there used to be that.
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But what there hasn't been is -- in my experience or my understanding or knowledge, if anybody has a curriculum like this from 0 to 18, please send it my way.
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But we're just finding, How do we actually disciple kids from cradle to college?
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And really equip parents to then do that? So those are the types of conversations we're having now, and we certainly don't have it all figured out.
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But it's the opportunity to, together with hunger in the room, say, we want to figure this out.
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And not make it such a rigid or legalistic or, you know, like 'you have to do this and you get points', but at the same time, actually give a guide or questions or catechesis or whatever to actually help them.
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Yeah. So like, I totally agree.
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We need more intentionality or more holistic view.
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I would even go past 18, you know, go into college and career. As a parent now of children who are post-secondary, I find that there's a lot of parenting that I'm still doing.
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In fact, Howard Hendricks said some of the most significant parenting happens after they leave home.
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So, you know, having a holistic view for your church -- And, you know, there's church planters that are listening, senior pastors, leaders, lay leaders in the church, and all kind of leadership in the church are listening -- We can all have a part to play in this.
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But I like that thought you had about, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, so I think millennials are all college and career, but that's not it. Millennials are raising kids now.
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And so if we're interested in still discipling millennials and younger, then we've got to come up with ideas on how to equip parents to disciple their kids- So that we don't have an undisciplined generation, maybe like how the some of the millennials feel.
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So I love the fact that you guys are drilling down on that.
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But you're also doing some -- Let's talk maybe about the ministry schools quickly, and then we'll circle back to the reaching part.
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Talk to us about what Tehilla Ministry School is and Tehilla Youth Ministry School. And then I'm going to have a few comments, because I got a chance to speak at the retreat and I just could not believe the quality of student that's being developed through there. So maybe, share a little bit about those ministry schools and how you're intentionally creating space for discipleship.
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So it kind of all started out of I, when I was a youth pastor at the church, had a dozen students all in full time Bible College, but not one of them in Calgary.
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And I'm like, 'Man, what?
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Like, why?
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Yes, -- I went away for school.
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I love sending them, blessing them.
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Go for it. Get a clean slate.
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New experience in a new city, new place.
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But I'm like, why are we not training them here?
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Why can we not raise them up here?
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So we started a TMS four years ago, which in short is a one night a week spiritual formation school.
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And for who?
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For what age.
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18 to 80.
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Like we've had sixty year olds, we've had a parents, moms, dads, career people.
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That we said, Hey, let's intentionally gather around three
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classroom teaching, mentorship - they intern at their local church - and then spiritual disciplines, so rule of life.
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So, I just want to make a distinction because Tehilla is a citywide ministry.
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It's not just your church, so -- Correct.
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So there's people that come from all over the city that you're serving.
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And then you send them back to their church. So just just as a point of clarity.
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Exactly. Which is it's an amazing opportunity to be able to serve all churches in the city.
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So,
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spiritual disciplines, practices, rhythms.
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So, the thing that we notice is right now, even in adults, like millennials and all the rest, what's discipling them mostly is like digital media, screen time, you know, go down the list, the news, 24 hour news or whatever.
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And we just said, you know what?
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And this is really the inspiration of the whole Dietrich Bonhoeffer thing, when he's like talking to his friend at the top of the mountain, pointing at what Hitler's doing with the Nazi army - He is like, 'what we're doing has to be stronger than what they're doing'. If we're going to be able to combat the principalities and powers we've got to do something stronger, more intentional.
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So we're just challenging people to say, hey, like you can actually do this.
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So it's things like going to bed on time at the same time.
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It's things like, don't touch your phone for the first half hour or the last half hour.
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It's actually like, you know, reading your Bible more than for 30 seconds a day.
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And saying you can actually do this, and you want to do this.
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We know you want to, but maybe you felt like you were doing it by yourself, because we've kind of individualized faith so much.
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It's like, Oh, yeah, just your personal faith.
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It's like, no, no - we're going to do this with a group of hungry people and challenge each other and do it together.
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So then we've translated that into a youth portion, where we have grade nine to grade 12 of students, essentially doing the same thing - Serving at their local church in cohorts, mentorship groups, being discipled, and classroom, developing their theology.
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And the thing that we just noticed-- and I think sometimes we think, Oh, I don't want to challenge them too much, I don't want to give them too much, I don't want to burden them with, you know, religion or like, you know, all the disciplines.
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And it's we're just finding the opposite. They're like, no, no, we're hungry for this.
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Because there's something that we're missing in our life, and these things actually are helping bring us life.
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And I just found that in youth ministry, you know, what should we do?
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Let's go bowling! And then tell them about Jesus with the last 5 minutes of the youth night.
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No, these kids want to be challenged, want to be called up, want to have something real and authentic.
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And I just think that sometimes in our society, we just under-challenge teens.
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Like King Josiah, in the Scriptures, was eight years old, leading the nation and brought full-on revival.
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And we think, 'Oh no, eight year olds -- They should just they should just be watching Cocomelon, like that's the best they can do'.
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It's like, What are you talking about?
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My mom challenged me with this, with my kids.
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She's like, James, They can memorize scripture. And she, with our kids, they have the Ten Commandments memorized.
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They have about 30 to 40 verses memorized, all through song.
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I'm like, Thank you, Mom.
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Appreciate it.
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Thanks for descipling my kids.
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Shout out, Ruth.
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But I just realized, like, my two year old actually is hungry for Scripture, hungry for God, and has 40 verses memorized.
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At two.
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So I think we just said, you know what? We're not going to under challenge people, or just send them off. We're going to say, No, right here - in our home, in our city, in our place of influence - we're going to take full authority of what God has placed in us to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
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And then actually do it.
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I love the three things that you're really building in, and it comes out of this place of not under challenging. I think it was Steven Furtick said there's never been a generation more under challenged.
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And it's true.
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Because one of the things that we think discipleship is, is just learning.
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But there's also a following component, and then there's also a spot where you actually take evaluation of what's being reproduced in your life.
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And I love that you're sending them back to actually serve. Or if they're from First Assembly, they're serving in First Assembly in some area.
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And the thing that we are saying is discipleship isn't just head knowledge.
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It can't be.
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And I think that's what we've kind of distilled it down to in past - Oh, we just got to teach them Bible, we just got to, you know, do this. It's like, you know, Yes, it's intellectual, mental.
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But it's also emotional.
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It's also physical.
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Like, we have our students doing exercise on a regular basis, at least twice a week.
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In our rule of life, you got to get your heart rate up.
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So it's not just this like, Oh, I got to, you know, memorize scripture, which they do every week.
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But it's holistic learning, that we're not just dumping information in somebody's brain. We're saying, No, how does this integrate into your whole being?
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Because God's not here just for the brain, you know. He's here for all of us: body, mind, soul, and spirit.
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Yeah.
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So what do you guys do when it comes to, like, equipping them for evangelism?
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Like, what are some things that you encourage?
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I mean, obviously whole life discipleship means that you're a light 24-7, in front of your friends, at church.
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How do you encourage that missionary mindset for the students?
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Yeah, it's always saying there's more out there for you to discover and to engage with. So, with our high school students, we help them run Alpha in their high schools.
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And then with college students, career, it's really, you know - yes they can run Alpha in their workplace, and we encourage that - but it's more like, the life that you live let that inspire people and then have people asking you questions.
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So it's saying, Hey, God's heart is always looking for more kids to bring into His family.
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And that's our opportunity, through the Great Commission to go.
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And as you go, make disciples of all nations.
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So, we really just always have an outward focus.
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Say it doesn't stop here.
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And the danger of, even this word discipleship sometimes, is it can be so inward focused or in-church focus.
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And we're like, No, no, no, no, no.
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We are going out.
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So Alpha in high schools.
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Then the TYMS, they go every Thursday night and just hit the streets. Go to the train stations, the malls. And just pray for people, practice the spiritual gifts that they're activating in their life.
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And then in adults in similar ways.
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So, I got a chance to speak at the Tehilla Youth Ministry School and FA Youth retreat.
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And the quality of students, Folks, that they're developing blew me out of the water.
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Just, character.
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Their focus.
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Like, when I'm preaching -- and I know I'm not that great of a preacher.
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I've preached to a few youth groups over the years-- I was the kid in the back ignoring Paul. (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah, he was.
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Notebooks open.
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They're sitting, they're praying about it, They're reflecting, They're coming to the services early.
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There's no big worship - It was like a scaled back acoustic band.
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We didn't have like -- They didn't even have the stuff you'd normally have at a youth retreat.
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And the presence of God was so powerful. Kids being activated in their gifts.
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Ministering to one another.
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I was just like, This is great. And then I got a chance to chat with some of the young adults, because you had the young adults there as well. And the quality of young adults, there-- Like, if you're a leader out there, and you're in a mid to large sized church, you need to be thinking about a ministry school.
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You need to be thinking about something like this.
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Intentionally discipling the next generation with those things that you talked about. And if you're in a small church or small church plant, I know that there are bigger churches that you can probably loop some of your students into.
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Like, the technology is there now to do this.
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And I just really, really, really think what you guys are doing is is right where we need to be. I know there's some other churches in our fellowship that are doing discipleship schools, ministry schools, internships.
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I could list them off, but yeah, it's really producing good fruit.
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Would you say that?
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Yeah, Yeah, 100%.
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God's graced us to be able to do this. And it's been His work and power doing it.
00:21:09.507 --> 00:21:10.507
Of course.
00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:13.457
And the thing that we're dreaming about is what you just said.
00:21:13.458 --> 00:21:24.028
Like, Why can't a church of 200 or a church of 150 start something like this? Why can't a church of 4000 start something like this?
00:21:24.029 --> 00:21:34.888
And I think, again, sometimes as local churches, we've just delegated the development out to the YWAMs or the Bethels or the Bible Colleges or whatever.
00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:43.019
And it's like, No, that's actually our opportunity as local church pastors to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:48.598
And when we just parse it out to somebody else, the return is just not the same.
00:21:48.599 --> 00:22:16.528
So, part of what we're doing is we're putting together all our curriculum - teaching notes, recording some of the TYMS classes, all of them - and then the hope is being able to be able to just give that away to other churches that want to start something and saving the time, developing the curriculum, or the rule of life, or the student handbook or, you know, go down the list. To be able to resource churches to say, I think I could start this.
00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:25.617
Because all it takes is one person with a passion to develop people-- And there's enough resources out there to share.
00:22:25.618 --> 00:22:27.627
Correct! Absolutely! And man, who cares about the TYMS or TMS stuff. There's plenty of other online resources that you can pull from.
00:22:27.628 --> 00:22:27.631
But it just takes one person to say, Why not here? Why not now? Why do I gotta send people away? And that's okay. Again, I was sent away. I had an incredible experience going to school in the States.
00:22:27.632 --> 00:23:24.509
But at the same time I'm like, Lord, why not be able to raise up a new generation of disciples hungry for you? And here's the thing. We called it Ministry School because we didn't want to call it Leadership School. I think that's been a buzz word over these past couple of decades, and it's like we're developing leaders before we're developing disciples. So ministry is service. We're developing disciples that, again, the greatest of all, become the greatest servant of all. So we're saying we want to actually develop disciples that minister in many different ways.
00:23:24.509 --> 00:23:28.798
And yes, maybe some of them become leaders or will have some sort of influence.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.588
But we're saying, we are focused on here. Why not here?
00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:32.459
Why not now?
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:33.689
Yeah.
00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:51.689
So I want to talk about - just as we finish up here in a second and talk about the reaching aspect. But just, when we talk with church planters in relation to starting a church, we really, really drill down on the discipleship piece in your church.
00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:58.787
But what I think can happen, is we get too focused on the adults and not the Next Gen.
00:23:58.788 --> 00:24:08.068
And they desperately need discipleship more than ever with so many currents pushing against their faith.
00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:11.759
And so thanks for that focus and reminder today.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.318
All right. Reaching.
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:14.888
What do churches need to do?
00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:20.098
Church plants, rural, urban, suburban churches?
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:24.778
What do we need to do to reach, like Gen Z, Gen Alpha?
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:29.278
What are some things that maybe are working for you guys or some things that you're noticing?
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:38.648
Yeah. So one of the primary ways that we try to do it is through- surprise, surprise - relationship.
00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:47.679
I think that's something that we can never underestimate the power of, like a mentor in the young person's lives.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:58.598
So, to reach those people within our church - first, equip the saints, reach them, to then have them be able to replicate that wherever they go.
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:08.000
Because again, I think sometimes we've put this emphasis on, Oh, I've got to reach my neighborhood. Which is a sweet Easter egg event, which we're doing.
00:25:09.549 --> 00:25:13.298
Or, we're going to do cool movies or whatever.
00:25:13.299 --> 00:25:15.638
And invite people to our church.
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:24.669
But the best opportunity that you have is, again, discipling people that reflect Jesus where they live, where they work, where they go to school.
00:25:24.670 --> 00:25:26.798
So it's the same with these kids.
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:29.528
So many kids are dealing with anxiety right now.
00:25:29.529 --> 00:25:31.209
Depression.
00:25:31.210 --> 00:25:34.929
Go down the list of things that kids are going through.
00:25:34.930 --> 00:25:47.911
And if we could help develop our own - to not, I'm not saying not struggle with those things - but be able to bring peace, bring calm, bring joy, bring hope, bring love at their schools.
00:25:47.912 --> 00:25:59.828
And then give that to people through relationship, that'll always be the best. And the goal isn't, Hey, get your friends to come to our church.
00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:05.318
The goal is get your friends to come into your life, then come into your home.
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.932
And then through relationship, then you can bring them to church.
00:26:08.933 --> 00:26:15.104
So it's just changing the narrative versus invite, invite, invite, invite, which I'm not against obviously.
00:26:15.105 --> 00:26:21.173
But it's invite them into your life, build relationship with them.
00:26:21.173 --> 00:26:27.578
Don't have this like, you know, inauthentic or fake pretending posture.
00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:31.028
But real, honest, like, hey, this stuff that I struggle with.
00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:40.159
And again, you'd be surprised what a junior higher can do, what a junior higher can articulate, what a junior higher can share with their friends.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:45.459
So we just-- Yeah, just try to equip them to build relationships.
00:26:45.460 --> 00:26:50.528
Yeah. I grew up, like you, invite people to church. This was our evangelism
00:26:50.529 --> 00:26:51.909
Invite them to church.
00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:56.439
The pastor invites them to Jesus, and if we're on the ball, we invite them into our lives.
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.138
And I think that the opposite has to happen.
00:26:59.140 --> 00:27:04.778
When - specifically for next gen - you need to invite them into your life.
00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:09.669
You need to-- You invite them to Jesus. Then church makes so much more sense.
00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:16.388
And I love that approach, and I think that's actually something we need to spend a little bit more time on.
00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:23.925
And again, coming back to that - We're here, as leaders, to equip the saints for works of service.
00:27:23.926 --> 00:27:29.048
And that includes the young saints. That includes the young saints.
00:27:29.049 --> 00:27:48.669
There is no distinction on that. And if you're a senior pastor or leader of a church plant or you're involved in any way in leadership in the church, you need to ensure that your church is equipping those young saints for works of service. Because you're right, I think -- When I did student ministry and when you did
00:27:49.930 --> 00:27:51.638
people came because of their friends.
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:59.348
The events were nice and the bowling and, you know, all those things were great. But in the end, it's relationships.
00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:17.259
Any final thoughts, James, as it relates to discipleship or reaching? Or maybe give leaders out there an encouragement that feel discouraged because they're not seeing a lot of young people come to the church, or they're not feeling like they're making a difference. They're maybe not equipping the young saints for work as a service.
00:28:17.259 --> 00:28:20.329
Any any thoughts, any encouragement you like?
00:28:20.769 --> 00:28:22.240
I think my my primary encouragement
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.858
invite them into your life, invite them into your home.
00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:32.199
You can reproduce yourself and multiply yourself, if people can get to know you.
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.528
I think we've tried to do it through a stage and through a mic.
00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:37.148
And we're seeing the fruit of it.
00:28:37.150 --> 00:28:51.759
But if you actually invite them into your life, and they can see behind the curtain, and see the questions that you have, see the wrestlings that you have, see how you've then overcome them by the Scriptures, by the Spirit, by community.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:59.409
And you model that, and model that, and model that, and model that, you'll see people-- Again, follow me as I follow Christ.
00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:04.719
You'll see people follow you in that way because they actually know you. They actually see you.
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.598
So many people out there, it's like, That's my pastor.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:08.499
Have you met them?
00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:11.720
No. (Laughter) That's okay.
00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:19.538
However, because again, hopefully that pastor is multiplying themselves to be able to equip more people.
00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:36.199
But, for me, just in the way the world is going - more isolated, more screen time, more by yourselves - Let's pull the opposite way. Let's be the counterculture and say, you know, let's engage in community. Let's get together.
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.138
And not neglect the gathering of the saints.
00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:42.679
And say, come into my life, follow me.
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:46.038
Like, I think about the intimacy that Jesus had with his disciples.
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:47.156
John, laying on his chest.
00:29:47.157 --> 00:29:55.519
Now, that might break some Plan to Protect rules. You know, if if one of your kids is laying on your youth leaders chest. (Laughter) However, that's the level of relationship.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:04.608
And, like, I am that comfortable with Jesus, the person, that I could literally, you know, lay my head on his chest.
00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:06.929
Now, again, I wouldn't recommend that--.
00:30:06.930 --> 00:30:17.868
(Laughter) Catch the metaphor, Folks! The point I'm saying is that level of relationship is-- I think, even just that pastoral heart gift.
00:30:17.869 --> 00:30:22.769
If we can reactivate that - My, my, the church will be in good hands.
00:30:22.769 --> 00:30:23.868
And start with a few.
00:30:23.869 --> 00:30:25.459
You don't have to start with everyone.
00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:26.118
Exactly, exactly.
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:37.699
Like, as a leader out there, like my question -- Like, when I think of discipleship culture, disciple making culture in a church - I was trying to think, how could I actually metric this thing?
00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:41.898
Like, how would I know if a church is making disciples?
00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:56.088
And I think - this isn't the only way - but I just thought, if I could find ten people that I randomly asked on a Sunday at a church or at a church gathering, and I said, Hey, who are you discipling?
00:30:56.089 --> 00:30:57.739
And they go, Oh, that person.
00:30:57.740 --> 00:30:58.848
Okay, great.
00:30:58.849 --> 00:30:59.653
Who is disciplining you?
00:30:59.654 --> 00:31:02.034
Oh, I have a friend online that -- Yeah, I have a mentor--.
00:31:02.035 --> 00:31:03.035
It's Paul, Barnabas, Timothy--.
00:31:04.848 --> 00:31:15.078
Yeah. And I go and I ask ten people and six, seven, eight out of ten go, Yeah, I'm discipling someone and someone's discipling me.
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:21.648
You may be a leader out there listening to this going, Well, yeah, I'm disciple five people. But my question is, who's disciple in you?
00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:23.031
There's still things to be learned.
00:31:23.032 --> 00:31:24.378
Who's mentoring you?
00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:27.499
And it's going to look different as you mature and faith, obviously.
00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:29.628
But I still have people speaking into my life.
00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:31.638
It's a wonderful thing.
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:40.669
And in order for us to encourage people to be in a discipleship relationship, I think also we need to as leaders. So thanks, James, for jumping on today--.
00:31:40.670 --> 00:31:41.670
A pleasure and an honour --.
00:31:43.368 --> 00:31:46.398
Yeah, thanks for jumping on and just-- Thank you for your role in my life.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.429
Discipling me from teenage years, when I was a very dysfunctional kid.
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:57.138
Haha. Probably the thorn in your side at camp but --- you saw something-- No -- James--- It's okay. It's okay.
00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:04.740
It's turning into a bromance here but -- James was one of the youngest leaders I ever let counsel because he has so much leadership ability.
00:32:06.019 --> 00:32:07.128
Well, thanks Paul.
00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:20.183
But yeah, it's just been an honor to just watch how you are taking such an important role in discipleship, not only here, but just as God opens up opportunities across the nation.
00:32:20.184 --> 00:32:21.348
You sowed it into me.
00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:26.868
'We've got to disciple people'. Yes, we do.
00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:28.429
Okay, I'll do that.
00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:29.509
I'll try at least.
00:32:29.509 --> 00:32:31.650
Thank you, Paul. And for the work that you doing for PAOC.
00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:33.469
You're very kind, James.
00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:34.549
Thanks so much. Take care.
00:00:12.230 --> 00:00:14.839
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast.
00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:16.879
My name is Paul Fraser.
00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:20.838
So grateful you've taken the time to tune in today.
00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:29.510
I trust that your 2023 is off to a fantastic start and this podcast finds you very well.
00:00:30.649 --> 00:00:32.539
Just want to make
00:00:32.539 --> 00:00:46.009
If you haven't checked it out already, we have a resource website that we created with you in mind - with planters, multipliers, pastors, leaders in church world.
00:00:46.009 --> 00:00:55.920
We wanted to create some resources, so we've done a bunch of videos on a ton of different topics and it's all on PAOCMultiply.com.
00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.539
It's there for you to check out, for you to use with your teams.
00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:03.499
And so we hope that there may be a few that you can use.
00:01:03.500 --> 00:01:08.569
And I think this will help get your 2023 off to a great start. So check it out.
00:01:08.569 --> 00:01:09.569
PAOCMultiply.com.
00:01:11.569 --> 00:01:17.269
Very excited to have a friend of mine on this month's Multiply Network podcast.
00:01:17.269 --> 00:01:19.039
His name is James Clarence.
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I've known him for a very long time.
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He works at First Assembly Church in Calgary and has been working with Next Gen youth and young adults for a number of years now and they're doing some exciting things in their church.
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They have both a youth ministry school and a young adult ministry school in their church, and I love some of the topics they cover. I love how they're developing and discipling and reaching the next generation.
00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:54.289
And so we talk about the rule of life and developing healthy rhythms.
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And so that's some of the things they're making sure that their students know.
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How to live on a mission.
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They're not just in the classroom, they're also in the community.
00:02:02.060 --> 00:02:04.638
They're hungry for the scriptures.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:11.269
And then, James also walks us through some things that they're finding helpful to reach the next generation.
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And there's not one leader out there that is not kind of baffled, at times, on how to reach the next generation.
00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.739
And so there's some helpful things here.
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I hope you stick around right to the end, because I know you're going to be encouraged.
00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:30.080
The interview is coming up right now.
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Hey, James, welcome to the Multiply Network podcast.
00:02:41.210 --> 00:02:43.098
Hi, Paul. Nice to be here.
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Dude, It's so great to have you.
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Been awesome and an honor watching your journey all these years in ministry, as a teenager growing up.
00:02:51.409 --> 00:02:55.699
So great to have you on today to talk about Next Gen ministry.
00:02:55.699 --> 00:02:58.669
I know it's a huge passion for you.
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Going to just kind of set a context for our conversation, and then obviously going to get you to jump in.
00:03:04.819 --> 00:03:06.679
Big vision from PAOC
00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:12.348
reaching, developing and discipling millennials and younger.
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And so we're really excited about leaning into that. We have some strategic initiatives.
00:03:16.729 --> 00:03:29.179
I was on a call yesterday - Shayla Visser from Alpha, kind of unpacking the latest StatsCan survey that was related to religious affiliation in Canada.
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It's doubled in 20 years - Like the Nones, the Dones - Secularity has doubled in 20 years.
00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.459
And, you know, we could be discouraged by that. But I think there's also an opportunity there.
00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:47.868
There's a lot of kids growing up in homes that have no context of Christianity, and I like how she framed it.
00:03:47.870 --> 00:03:51.859
We're not in a post-Christian -- potentially be in a pre-Christian.
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And so we're going to talk about reaching them and then also how to disciple them.
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They talked about --Shayla yesterday, talked about how there's a huge difference between some foundational beliefs in teenagers around the world and then a 20 point difference for us in Canada.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.348
So when I say all this to you, just initial thoughts, what are you thinking?
00:04:18.350 --> 00:04:19.908
What are you seeing?
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Let's maybe start with the reaching side.
00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:23.088
Yeah.
00:04:23.089 --> 00:04:27.408
No, I think it's a really good point in terms of the rise of the Nones.
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The beautiful part is they have no connection to, perhaps, some of the cultural Christianity that people got turned off by, or just things that were not healthy - perhaps a part of the church - that has pushed a lot of people out of the, you know, religion is bad or whatever.
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It's like, these these young people- Gen-Alpha, Gen Zs - they have no clue.
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So it's a neutral playing field in many ways, where we can actually then introduce the idea of how Jesus brings identity, Jesus brings hope, Jesus brings life, and they're like, really?
00:05:02.449 --> 00:05:11.928
Like, Oh, wow, They don't have this like, Oh, Jesus, that's the guy that's trying to make your life boring, or rules, or whatever, whatever.
00:05:11.930 --> 00:05:13.399
It's just clean slate.
00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:22.369
So there's so much opportunity in that to be able to share and just exemplify the life of Jesus for them and make it attractive. Make it beautiful.
00:05:22.370 --> 00:05:24.829
Yeah. So they don't have a negative experience with church.
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They just have zero experience with church, with Jesus.
00:05:27.889 --> 00:05:37.519
So you work at First Assembly Calgary, oversee--- Well, why don't you tell us what your what your role is and how it's evolving.
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And what are you seeing?
00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:55.399
Yeah. So yeah, I oversee Next Gen at my church -- Shout Out, First Assembly-- and I basically oversee kids, youth, young adults, our ministry schools, and a number of other little random things.
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And the thing that I'm noticing most often is, we're seeing a lot of millennial parents that perhaps weren't discipled, struggling to understand, How do I even have the conversations with my kid? How do I disciple my own children?
00:06:14.449 --> 00:06:28.879
And I'm a millennial parent, and that's the questions even that I have. And of course, I can think back to what my parents did, but a lot of people didn't necessarily have the opportunity to be discipled. By my parents being pastors, this was their job in many areas.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:33.559
It was like parents just trying to figure it out, trying to make it.
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And one of the things that we're noticing in our church is we have a huge demographic of international first generation immigrants, second generation, and they- in the homes that they grew up in and in their countries of origin - they did, family did discipleship in a much more intentional way.
00:06:52.461 --> 00:07:06.360
And maybe it was just proximity, or like, the amount of times like 'the church four nights a week!' which is what I grew up with - You know, Sunday school in the afternoon, VBS, Wee College, go down the list.
00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:13.939
What we're seeing is a cry from that part of our congregation to say'we want to be discipled'.
00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:15.178
We want to grow.
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We're hungry for this.
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We are not mad - or like, you know, perhaps it's not every opportunity is shaped around discipleship, but they're saying, 'We want this, we're hungry for this', which then gives us the opportunity to then relook at, 'Hey, how are we actually doing this?' Because I think, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is in pretty much every other lane of society - whether it be school, K-12, sports, you know, all the different hockey levels or karate and the different black belts- there's a progression and a process or a curriculum that helps guide people along the journey of whatever that is.
00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:06.343
But when we think about our church in the west, sometimes it's like, is there any sort of guide?
00:08:06.345 --> 00:08:15.918
Is there any sort of curriculum? Is there any sort of, whatever? And, you know, back in the day there was like Awana, or Kids Club, or --.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.678
I grew up with Crusaders.
00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:19.898
Crusaders, yeah. I don't know if you can use that anymore.
00:08:21.620 --> 00:08:22.620
Terrible name.
00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:27.439
Yeah, like there used to be that.
00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:38.028
But what there hasn't been is -- in my experience or my understanding or knowledge, if anybody has a curriculum like this from 0 to 18, please send it my way.
00:08:38.029 --> 00:08:43.427
But we're just finding, How do we actually disciple kids from cradle to college?
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And really equip parents to then do that? So those are the types of conversations we're having now, and we certainly don't have it all figured out.
00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:57.918
But it's the opportunity to, together with hunger in the room, say, we want to figure this out.
00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:13.938
And not make it such a rigid or legalistic or, you know, like 'you have to do this and you get points', but at the same time, actually give a guide or questions or catechesis or whatever to actually help them.
00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:17.928
Yeah. So like, I totally agree.
00:09:17.929 --> 00:09:23.298
We need more intentionality or more holistic view.
00:09:23.299 --> 00:09:37.221
I would even go past 18, you know, go into college and career. As a parent now of children who are post-secondary, I find that there's a lot of parenting that I'm still doing.
00:09:37.222 --> 00:09:44.548
In fact, Howard Hendricks said some of the most significant parenting happens after they leave home.
00:09:44.549 --> 00:10:00.839
So, you know, having a holistic view for your church -- And, you know, there's church planters that are listening, senior pastors, leaders, lay leaders in the church, and all kind of leadership in the church are listening -- We can all have a part to play in this.
00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:10.379
But I like that thought you had about, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, so I think millennials are all college and career, but that's not it. Millennials are raising kids now.
00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:28.288
And so if we're interested in still discipling millennials and younger, then we've got to come up with ideas on how to equip parents to disciple their kids- So that we don't have an undisciplined generation, maybe like how the some of the millennials feel.
00:10:28.289 --> 00:10:31.948
So I love the fact that you guys are drilling down on that.
00:10:31.950 --> 00:10:40.029
But you're also doing some -- Let's talk maybe about the ministry schools quickly, and then we'll circle back to the reaching part.
00:10:41.460 --> 00:11:05.548
Talk to us about what Tehilla Ministry School is and Tehilla Youth Ministry School. And then I'm going to have a few comments, because I got a chance to speak at the retreat and I just could not believe the quality of student that's being developed through there. So maybe, share a little bit about those ministry schools and how you're intentionally creating space for discipleship.
00:11:05.549 --> 00:11:17.009
So it kind of all started out of I, when I was a youth pastor at the church, had a dozen students all in full time Bible College, but not one of them in Calgary.
00:11:17.009 --> 00:11:18.639
And I'm like, 'Man, what?
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:19.639
Like, why?
00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:22.528
Yes, -- I went away for school.
00:11:22.529 --> 00:11:24.208
I love sending them, blessing them.
00:11:24.210 --> 00:11:26.038
Go for it. Get a clean slate.
00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.259
New experience in a new city, new place.
00:11:28.259 --> 00:11:30.688
But I'm like, why are we not training them here?
00:11:30.690 --> 00:11:32.548
Why can we not raise them up here?
00:11:32.549 --> 00:11:41.009
So we started a TMS four years ago, which in short is a one night a week spiritual formation school.
00:11:41.009 --> 00:11:41.818
And for who?
00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.019
For what age.
00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:45.269
18 to 80.
00:11:45.269 --> 00:11:50.923
Like we've had sixty year olds, we've had a parents, moms, dads, career people.
00:11:52.049 --> 00:11:55.111
That we said, Hey, let's intentionally gather around three
00:11:56.669 --> 00:12:06.778
classroom teaching, mentorship - they intern at their local church - and then spiritual disciplines, so rule of life.
00:12:06.779 --> 00:12:12.688
So, I just want to make a distinction because Tehilla is a citywide ministry.
00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:14.849
It's not just your church, so -- Correct.
00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:19.589
So there's people that come from all over the city that you're serving.
00:12:19.590 --> 00:12:23.369
And then you send them back to their church. So just just as a point of clarity.
00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:27.749
Exactly. Which is it's an amazing opportunity to be able to serve all churches in the city.
00:12:27.750 --> 00:12:28.750
So,
00:12:30.629 --> 00:12:34.139
spiritual disciplines, practices, rhythms.
00:12:34.139 --> 00:12:53.548
So, the thing that we notice is right now, even in adults, like millennials and all the rest, what's discipling them mostly is like digital media, screen time, you know, go down the list, the news, 24 hour news or whatever.
00:12:53.549 --> 00:12:55.379
And we just said, you know what?
00:12:55.379 --> 00:13:19.558
And this is really the inspiration of the whole Dietrich Bonhoeffer thing, when he's like talking to his friend at the top of the mountain, pointing at what Hitler's doing with the Nazi army - He is like, 'what we're doing has to be stronger than what they're doing'. If we're going to be able to combat the principalities and powers we've got to do something stronger, more intentional.
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:24.808
So we're just challenging people to say, hey, like you can actually do this.
00:13:24.809 --> 00:13:28.438
So it's things like going to bed on time at the same time.
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.188
It's things like, don't touch your phone for the first half hour or the last half hour.
00:13:32.190 --> 00:13:37.528
It's actually like, you know, reading your Bible more than for 30 seconds a day.
00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:42.298
And saying you can actually do this, and you want to do this.
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:48.119
We know you want to, but maybe you felt like you were doing it by yourself, because we've kind of individualized faith so much.
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.308
It's like, Oh, yeah, just your personal faith.
00:13:50.309 --> 00:13:56.578
It's like, no, no - we're going to do this with a group of hungry people and challenge each other and do it together.
00:13:56.580 --> 00:14:14.188
So then we've translated that into a youth portion, where we have grade nine to grade 12 of students, essentially doing the same thing - Serving at their local church in cohorts, mentorship groups, being discipled, and classroom, developing their theology.
00:14:14.190 --> 00:14:26.548
And the thing that we just noticed-- and I think sometimes we think, Oh, I don't want to challenge them too much, I don't want to give them too much, I don't want to burden them with, you know, religion or like, you know, all the disciplines.
00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:31.249
And it's we're just finding the opposite. They're like, no, no, we're hungry for this.
00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:38.778
Because there's something that we're missing in our life, and these things actually are helping bring us life.
00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:43.849
And I just found that in youth ministry, you know, what should we do?
00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:49.929
Let's go bowling! And then tell them about Jesus with the last 5 minutes of the youth night.
00:14:49.931 --> 00:14:58.849
No, these kids want to be challenged, want to be called up, want to have something real and authentic.
00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:02.899
And I just think that sometimes in our society, we just under-challenge teens.
00:15:02.899 --> 00:15:09.668
Like King Josiah, in the Scriptures, was eight years old, leading the nation and brought full-on revival.
00:15:09.669 --> 00:15:16.999
And we think, 'Oh no, eight year olds -- They should just they should just be watching Cocomelon, like that's the best they can do'.
00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.139
It's like, What are you talking about?
00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:23.298
My mom challenged me with this, with my kids.
00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:29.778
She's like, James, They can memorize scripture. And she, with our kids, they have the Ten Commandments memorized.
00:15:29.779 --> 00:15:32.958
They have about 30 to 40 verses memorized, all through song.
00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.038
I'm like, Thank you, Mom.
00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:35.389
Appreciate it.
00:15:35.389 --> 00:15:37.068
Thanks for descipling my kids.
00:15:37.070 --> 00:15:38.448
Shout out, Ruth.
00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:46.219
But I just realized, like, my two year old actually is hungry for Scripture, hungry for God, and has 40 verses memorized.
00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:47.099
At two.
00:15:47.100 --> 00:16:02.839
So I think we just said, you know what? We're not going to under challenge people, or just send them off. We're going to say, No, right here - in our home, in our city, in our place of influence - we're going to take full authority of what God has placed in us to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:03.840
And then actually do it.
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:14.658
I love the three things that you're really building in, and it comes out of this place of not under challenging. I think it was Steven Furtick said there's never been a generation more under challenged.
00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:15.659
And it's true.
00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:21.649
Because one of the things that we think discipleship is, is just learning.
00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:32.418
But there's also a following component, and then there's also a spot where you actually take evaluation of what's being reproduced in your life.
00:16:32.419 --> 00:16:41.239
And I love that you're sending them back to actually serve. Or if they're from First Assembly, they're serving in First Assembly in some area.
00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:46.398
And the thing that we are saying is discipleship isn't just head knowledge.
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:46.548
It can't be.
00:16:46.549 --> 00:16:56.687
And I think that's what we've kind of distilled it down to in past - Oh, we just got to teach them Bible, we just got to, you know, do this. It's like, you know, Yes, it's intellectual, mental.
00:16:56.688 --> 00:16:59.658
But it's also emotional.
00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:00.859
It's also physical.
00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:06.048
Like, we have our students doing exercise on a regular basis, at least twice a week.
00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:09.469
In our rule of life, you got to get your heart rate up.
00:17:09.470 --> 00:17:16.046
So it's not just this like, Oh, I got to, you know, memorize scripture, which they do every week.
00:17:16.047 --> 00:17:25.669
But it's holistic learning, that we're not just dumping information in somebody's brain. We're saying, No, how does this integrate into your whole being?
00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:31.999
Because God's not here just for the brain, you know. He's here for all of us: body, mind, soul, and spirit.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:32.868
Yeah.
00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:38.419
So what do you guys do when it comes to, like, equipping them for evangelism?
00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:42.108
Like, what are some things that you encourage?
00:17:42.109 --> 00:17:50.390
I mean, obviously whole life discipleship means that you're a light 24-7, in front of your friends, at church.
00:17:51.470 --> 00:17:55.519
How do you encourage that missionary mindset for the students?
00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:08.719
Yeah, it's always saying there's more out there for you to discover and to engage with. So, with our high school students, we help them run Alpha in their high schools.
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:23.838
And then with college students, career, it's really, you know - yes they can run Alpha in their workplace, and we encourage that - but it's more like, the life that you live let that inspire people and then have people asking you questions.
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:30.828
So it's saying, Hey, God's heart is always looking for more kids to bring into His family.
00:18:30.829 --> 00:18:34.189
And that's our opportunity, through the Great Commission to go.
00:18:34.190 --> 00:18:37.608
And as you go, make disciples of all nations.
00:18:37.609 --> 00:18:41.083
So, we really just always have an outward focus.
00:18:41.084 --> 00:18:44.028
Say it doesn't stop here.
00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:50.910
And the danger of, even this word discipleship sometimes, is it can be so inward focused or in-church focus.
00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:52.009
And we're like, No, no, no, no, no.
00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:53.778
We are going out.
00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:55.068
So Alpha in high schools.
00:18:55.069 --> 00:19:05.898
Then the TYMS, they go every Thursday night and just hit the streets. Go to the train stations, the malls. And just pray for people, practice the spiritual gifts that they're activating in their life.
00:19:05.900 --> 00:19:08.239
And then in adults in similar ways.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:16.788
So, I got a chance to speak at the Tehilla Youth Ministry School and FA Youth retreat.
00:19:16.789 --> 00:19:23.209
And the quality of students, Folks, that they're developing blew me out of the water.
00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:24.769
Just, character.
00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:27.799
Their focus.
00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:32.229
Like, when I'm preaching -- and I know I'm not that great of a preacher.
00:19:32.230 --> 00:19:40.648
I've preached to a few youth groups over the years-- I was the kid in the back ignoring Paul. (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah, he was.
00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:42.309
Notebooks open.
00:19:42.310 --> 00:19:50.009
They're sitting, they're praying about it, They're reflecting, They're coming to the services early.
00:19:50.009 --> 00:19:53.400
There's no big worship - It was like a scaled back acoustic band.
00:19:55.049 --> 00:20:00.509
We didn't have like -- They didn't even have the stuff you'd normally have at a youth retreat.
00:20:00.509 --> 00:20:06.058
And the presence of God was so powerful. Kids being activated in their gifts.
00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:08.429
Ministering to one another.
00:20:08.430 --> 00:20:26.398
I was just like, This is great. And then I got a chance to chat with some of the young adults, because you had the young adults there as well. And the quality of young adults, there-- Like, if you're a leader out there, and you're in a mid to large sized church, you need to be thinking about a ministry school.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.064
You need to be thinking about something like this.
00:20:29.065 --> 00:20:43.409
Intentionally discipling the next generation with those things that you talked about. And if you're in a small church or small church plant, I know that there are bigger churches that you can probably loop some of your students into.
00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:46.643
Like, the technology is there now to do this.
00:20:46.644 --> 00:20:58.680
And I just really, really, really think what you guys are doing is is right where we need to be. I know there's some other churches in our fellowship that are doing discipleship schools, ministry schools, internships.
00:20:59.789 --> 00:21:03.388
I could list them off, but yeah, it's really producing good fruit.
00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:04.078
Would you say that?
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:05.368
Yeah, Yeah, 100%.
00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:09.506
God's graced us to be able to do this. And it's been His work and power doing it.
00:21:09.507 --> 00:21:10.507
Of course.
00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:13.457
And the thing that we're dreaming about is what you just said.
00:21:13.458 --> 00:21:24.028
Like, Why can't a church of 200 or a church of 150 start something like this? Why can't a church of 4000 start something like this?
00:21:24.029 --> 00:21:34.888
And I think, again, sometimes as local churches, we've just delegated the development out to the YWAMs or the Bethels or the Bible Colleges or whatever.
00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:43.019
And it's like, No, that's actually our opportunity as local church pastors to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:48.598
And when we just parse it out to somebody else, the return is just not the same.
00:21:48.599 --> 00:22:16.528
So, part of what we're doing is we're putting together all our curriculum - teaching notes, recording some of the TYMS classes, all of them - and then the hope is being able to be able to just give that away to other churches that want to start something and saving the time, developing the curriculum, or the rule of life, or the student handbook or, you know, go down the list. To be able to resource churches to say, I think I could start this.
00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:25.617
Because all it takes is one person with a passion to develop people-- And there's enough resources out there to share.
00:22:25.618 --> 00:22:27.627
Correct! Absolutely! And man, who cares about the TYMS or TMS stuff. There's plenty of other online resources that you can pull from.
00:22:27.628 --> 00:22:27.631
But it just takes one person to say, Why not here? Why not now? Why do I gotta send people away? And that's okay. Again, I was sent away. I had an incredible experience going to school in the States.
00:22:27.632 --> 00:23:24.509
But at the same time I'm like, Lord, why not be able to raise up a new generation of disciples hungry for you? And here's the thing. We called it Ministry School because we didn't want to call it Leadership School. I think that's been a buzz word over these past couple of decades, and it's like we're developing leaders before we're developing disciples. So ministry is service. We're developing disciples that, again, the greatest of all, become the greatest servant of all. So we're saying we want to actually develop disciples that minister in many different ways.
00:23:24.509 --> 00:23:28.798
And yes, maybe some of them become leaders or will have some sort of influence.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.588
But we're saying, we are focused on here. Why not here?
00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:32.459
Why not now?
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:33.689
Yeah.
00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:51.689
So I want to talk about - just as we finish up here in a second and talk about the reaching aspect. But just, when we talk with church planters in relation to starting a church, we really, really drill down on the discipleship piece in your church.
00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:58.787
But what I think can happen, is we get too focused on the adults and not the Next Gen.
00:23:58.788 --> 00:24:08.068
And they desperately need discipleship more than ever with so many currents pushing against their faith.
00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:11.759
And so thanks for that focus and reminder today.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.318
All right. Reaching.
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:14.888
What do churches need to do?
00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:20.098
Church plants, rural, urban, suburban churches?
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:24.778
What do we need to do to reach, like Gen Z, Gen Alpha?
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:29.278
What are some things that maybe are working for you guys or some things that you're noticing?
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:38.648
Yeah. So one of the primary ways that we try to do it is through- surprise, surprise - relationship.
00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:47.679
I think that's something that we can never underestimate the power of, like a mentor in the young person's lives.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:58.598
So, to reach those people within our church - first, equip the saints, reach them, to then have them be able to replicate that wherever they go.
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:08.000
Because again, I think sometimes we've put this emphasis on, Oh, I've got to reach my neighborhood. Which is a sweet Easter egg event, which we're doing.
00:25:09.549 --> 00:25:13.298
Or, we're going to do cool movies or whatever.
00:25:13.299 --> 00:25:15.638
And invite people to our church.
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:24.669
But the best opportunity that you have is, again, discipling people that reflect Jesus where they live, where they work, where they go to school.
00:25:24.670 --> 00:25:26.798
So it's the same with these kids.
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:29.528
So many kids are dealing with anxiety right now.
00:25:29.529 --> 00:25:31.209
Depression.
00:25:31.210 --> 00:25:34.929
Go down the list of things that kids are going through.
00:25:34.930 --> 00:25:47.911
And if we could help develop our own - to not, I'm not saying not struggle with those things - but be able to bring peace, bring calm, bring joy, bring hope, bring love at their schools.
00:25:47.912 --> 00:25:59.828
And then give that to people through relationship, that'll always be the best. And the goal isn't, Hey, get your friends to come to our church.
00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:05.318
The goal is get your friends to come into your life, then come into your home.
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.932
And then through relationship, then you can bring them to church.
00:26:08.933 --> 00:26:15.104
So it's just changing the narrative versus invite, invite, invite, invite, which I'm not against obviously.
00:26:15.105 --> 00:26:21.173
But it's invite them into your life, build relationship with them.
00:26:21.173 --> 00:26:27.578
Don't have this like, you know, inauthentic or fake pretending posture.
00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:31.028
But real, honest, like, hey, this stuff that I struggle with.
00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:40.159
And again, you'd be surprised what a junior higher can do, what a junior higher can articulate, what a junior higher can share with their friends.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:45.459
So we just-- Yeah, just try to equip them to build relationships.
00:26:45.460 --> 00:26:50.528
Yeah. I grew up, like you, invite people to church. This was our evangelism
00:26:50.529 --> 00:26:51.909
Invite them to church.
00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:56.439
The pastor invites them to Jesus, and if we're on the ball, we invite them into our lives.
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.138
And I think that the opposite has to happen.
00:26:59.140 --> 00:27:04.778
When - specifically for next gen - you need to invite them into your life.
00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:09.669
You need to-- You invite them to Jesus. Then church makes so much more sense.
00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:16.388
And I love that approach, and I think that's actually something we need to spend a little bit more time on.
00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:23.925
And again, coming back to that - We're here, as leaders, to equip the saints for works of service.
00:27:23.926 --> 00:27:29.048
And that includes the young saints. That includes the young saints.
00:27:29.049 --> 00:27:48.669
There is no distinction on that. And if you're a senior pastor or leader of a church plant or you're involved in any way in leadership in the church, you need to ensure that your church is equipping those young saints for works of service. Because you're right, I think -- When I did student ministry and when you did
00:27:49.930 --> 00:27:51.638
people came because of their friends.
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:59.348
The events were nice and the bowling and, you know, all those things were great. But in the end, it's relationships.
00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:17.259
Any final thoughts, James, as it relates to discipleship or reaching? Or maybe give leaders out there an encouragement that feel discouraged because they're not seeing a lot of young people come to the church, or they're not feeling like they're making a difference. They're maybe not equipping the young saints for work as a service.
00:28:17.259 --> 00:28:20.329
Any any thoughts, any encouragement you like?
00:28:20.769 --> 00:28:22.240
I think my my primary encouragement
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.858
invite them into your life, invite them into your home.
00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:32.199
You can reproduce yourself and multiply yourself, if people can get to know you.
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.528
I think we've tried to do it through a stage and through a mic.
00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:37.148
And we're seeing the fruit of it.
00:28:37.150 --> 00:28:51.759
But if you actually invite them into your life, and they can see behind the curtain, and see the questions that you have, see the wrestlings that you have, see how you've then overcome them by the Scriptures, by the Spirit, by community.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:59.409
And you model that, and model that, and model that, and model that, you'll see people-- Again, follow me as I follow Christ.
00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:04.719
You'll see people follow you in that way because they actually know you. They actually see you.
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.598
So many people out there, it's like, That's my pastor.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:08.499
Have you met them?
00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:11.720
No. (Laughter) That's okay.
00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:19.538
However, because again, hopefully that pastor is multiplying themselves to be able to equip more people.
00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:36.199
But, for me, just in the way the world is going - more isolated, more screen time, more by yourselves - Let's pull the opposite way. Let's be the counterculture and say, you know, let's engage in community. Let's get together.
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.138
And not neglect the gathering of the saints.
00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:42.679
And say, come into my life, follow me.
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:46.038
Like, I think about the intimacy that Jesus had with his disciples.
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:47.156
John, laying on his chest.
00:29:47.157 --> 00:29:55.519
Now, that might break some Plan to Protect rules. You know, if if one of your kids is laying on your youth leaders chest. (Laughter) However, that's the level of relationship.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:04.608
And, like, I am that comfortable with Jesus, the person, that I could literally, you know, lay my head on his chest.
00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:06.929
Now, again, I wouldn't recommend that--.
00:30:06.930 --> 00:30:17.868
(Laughter) Catch the metaphor, Folks! The point I'm saying is that level of relationship is-- I think, even just that pastoral heart gift.
00:30:17.869 --> 00:30:22.769
If we can reactivate that - My, my, the church will be in good hands.
00:30:22.769 --> 00:30:23.868
And start with a few.
00:30:23.869 --> 00:30:25.459
You don't have to start with everyone.
00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:26.118
Exactly, exactly.
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:37.699
Like, as a leader out there, like my question -- Like, when I think of discipleship culture, disciple making culture in a church - I was trying to think, how could I actually metric this thing?
00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:41.898
Like, how would I know if a church is making disciples?
00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:56.088
And I think - this isn't the only way - but I just thought, if I could find ten people that I randomly asked on a Sunday at a church or at a church gathering, and I said, Hey, who are you discipling?
00:30:56.089 --> 00:30:57.739
And they go, Oh, that person.
00:30:57.740 --> 00:30:58.848
Okay, great.
00:30:58.849 --> 00:30:59.653
Who is disciplining you?
00:30:59.654 --> 00:31:02.034
Oh, I have a friend online that -- Yeah, I have a mentor--.
00:31:02.035 --> 00:31:03.035
It's Paul, Barnabas, Timothy--.
00:31:04.848 --> 00:31:15.078
Yeah. And I go and I ask ten people and six, seven, eight out of ten go, Yeah, I'm discipling someone and someone's discipling me.
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:21.648
You may be a leader out there listening to this going, Well, yeah, I'm disciple five people. But my question is, who's disciple in you?
00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:23.031
There's still things to be learned.
00:31:23.032 --> 00:31:24.378
Who's mentoring you?
00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:27.499
And it's going to look different as you mature and faith, obviously.
00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:29.628
But I still have people speaking into my life.
00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:31.638
It's a wonderful thing.
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:40.669
And in order for us to encourage people to be in a discipleship relationship, I think also we need to as leaders. So thanks, James, for jumping on today--.
00:31:40.670 --> 00:31:41.670
A pleasure and an honour --.
00:31:43.368 --> 00:31:46.398
Yeah, thanks for jumping on and just-- Thank you for your role in my life.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.429
Discipling me from teenage years, when I was a very dysfunctional kid.
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:57.138
Haha. Probably the thorn in your side at camp but --- you saw something-- No -- James--- It's okay. It's okay.
00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:04.740
It's turning into a bromance here but -- James was one of the youngest leaders I ever let counsel because he has so much leadership ability.
00:32:06.019 --> 00:32:07.128
Well, thanks Paul.
00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:20.183
But yeah, it's just been an honor to just watch how you are taking such an important role in discipleship, not only here, but just as God opens up opportunities across the nation.
00:32:20.184 --> 00:32:21.348
You sowed it into me.
00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:26.868
'We've got to disciple people'. Yes, we do.
00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:28.429
Okay, I'll do that.
00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:29.509
I'll try at least.
00:32:29.509 --> 00:32:31.650
Thank you, Paul. And for the work that you doing for PAOC.
00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:33.469
You're very kind, James.
00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:34.549
Thanks so much. Take care.
