WEBVTT
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Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Ms.
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Behavior Podcast.
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We are a podcast for professionals who do the work of college student conduct.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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We'll be your hosts.
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And we welcome you today to a conversation about a book that I recently read.
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We should probably do a little um business though.
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Kurt, we are right on top of our first ever book club for Ms.
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Behavior, the just desserts and dissertations book club.
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You know, some people are calling this the most heavily promoted dissertation of 2026.
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I think we actually deserve that superlative.
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I'm excited.
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I don't I don't think I talk this much about my own dissertation.
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So this is amazing to me.
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The the dissertation uh book hour is 100% your brainchild.
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So kudos to you.
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No, it's a brilliant idea.
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We are open to anything that cleverly uses the word be in it, including the Ms.
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Be Happy Hour.
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And that Kurt, do you want to share your newest MsB idea?
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Yes.
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So I know we recently had a discussion about traders, and uh we were trying to brainstorm could we have an online game of traders?
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Uh an uncopy written version, maybe Mizbee Traitors.
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Uh and uh just curious if anybody would be interested in joining a virtual one-hour game of traders.
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I guess it'd be kind of like Dungeons and Dragons, but for traders, maybe?
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I don't know.
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Yeah.
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I think there used to be a game.
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We used to do an RA training called Assassin.
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I think it takes on a new title every so often.
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If you've never watched the TV show Traitors, it's just like a party game.
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But we think it could be exceptional training for being a hearing officer where you're trying to make decisions about whether you believe someone or not believe someone and how you read their behavior as signs of credibility.
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I think it's a test of everyone's thought that they're such a good judge of character.
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Yes, 100%.
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Yeah, I I'm excited to try it.
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It's it's gonna be an experiment, so we need some brave guinea pigs.
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How's that sound?
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I'll figure out a way to link to us, but right now, just contacting us.
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We have a website, I don't think I've ever even announced this, which is Ms.
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Behavior.framer dot website.
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It's a free website.
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So sorry, y'all, you have to type the whole thing, Ms.
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Behavior.framer dot website.
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But all our contact information is there, and you can send us a little note saying you think this is a great idea.
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And even better, that you'd like to be an experimental first participant in Ms.Breaters.
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Uh, we are also open to hearing that it's hot garbage andor a copyright infringement.
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So, you know, all feedback is feedback.
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To say it with civility, we ask.
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Because we're real humans with real feelings.
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Yes.
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And can they also tweet us on Facebook?
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Uh, they could Facebook, they could send us a DM on Instagram.
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So many options.
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We're we're so available and accessible.
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Are we on Threads or Blue Sky?
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I uh I did I keep forgetting to ask you.
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I just made my first threads post in like three or four months recently.
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I am figuring out, trying to figure out what what media works for which platforms and how to spend the time.
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Most of our folks are on Instagram and yeah, a little smattering other places.
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I feel like I'm slowly being lured into threads.
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Like now I'm getting things that look like Facebook posts in Facebook, but I click them and it's trying to get me to go back to.
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I opened a threads account when it first opened and I haven't touched it since.
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So it's prompting me to try to open it.
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I don't know if I like to be baited in that way.
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I think I just want to tap in a little more organically.
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So yeah.
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Yeah.
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TikTok's the one that's still a mystery for me, but I I love a TikTok.
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I I don't know if we're I don't know if we're TikTok ready, at least not for my algorithm.
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Uh, neither of us is cooking uh vegan meals, neither of us is a Boston Terrier, and uh neither of us has their shirt off.
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So I think not yet.
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That is most of my algorithm.
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You'll know we're really pandering.
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Show a little bit of arm.
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Um the uh I think the other thing that keeps showing up in my feed is people scaring each other.
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I guess I must have some weird thing like where I like to watch people get scared.
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I don't know.
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My algorithm is the Dominican nuns.
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I love, oh god, they're just so joyful.
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And what else is in my TikTok?
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There's some uh professors who are just big.
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Everything they do is viral, um faculty members.
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Okay.
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Not exciting.
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All different kinds of TikTok, I guess.
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So speaking of like Dominican nuns, uh this is a transition.
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I mean, where does this go?
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I thought we were gonna transition from the Mizby Traders, but I wanted to talk to you about a book I'm reading right now.
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Okay, which is blowing my mind and making me think a lot about my work and I have my pen ready.
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Aspirational work in the field of student conduct.
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The name might be familiar to a lot of people.
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The author is is Father Gregory Boyle.
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He is a Jesuit priest, and he works with a group called the Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, which is mostly gang members, ex-gang members, folks who have been to prison, people who are trying to stay out of prison, but it it creates jobs, it creates belonging.
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And the name of the book, sorry, that was a long buildup.
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Um, the punchline is uh the name of the book is the whole language, and then the subtitle is The Power of Extravagant Tenderness.
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Oh wait, it's the whole The Whole Language.
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The power of extravagant tenderness.
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For me, it is a book uh came out in 2021.
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It's it is about true restorative work.
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Uh he works far on the margins.
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I can't imagine many populations more marginalized than the people that he works with.
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And they are people and they are holy to him.
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And so it just makes me think uh sometimes of our campuses.
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Like, here's somebody that is working with folks who have done real harm, and he just sees the deepest humanity in them.
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And I I just want everyone to read this and try to think of like how could we how do we do this on our campuses?
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It almost sounds it reminds me a little bit of the movie Dangerous Minds, a little bit.
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Is it sort of that sort of genre of somebody going in and working in areas that some people that many people overlook or are not interested in working in?
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Yeah, and I think even I I heard an interview with him, gosh, a lot of years ago, and he was talking about meeting with his supervisor to figure out where's what his assignment was going to be.
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And he said something like, Whatever it is, uh as long as it's not in the inner city, working with youth, like that's not really my jam.
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I would do better somewhere else.
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And his supervisor said, Well, Saint Ignatius then would say the exact place you need to be is working with youth and in the inner city.
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And I've heard him in a different interview say he got there and he he thought he was going to be this peacemaker, and that he would do like shuttle diplomacy between gangs, and then they'd all become friends again.
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But what really succeeded was just providing a place where people were accepted and and just loved where there was a belonging and then and then there was you know job training and um the practical parts of it and getting help finding an apartment, like who's gonna rent to a felon.
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And so I I think sometimes some of the student conduct codes that I have seen where w we just don't trust students, like there's a this underlying value of distrust.
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Uh and here he is, you know, he goes to work every day and not not just trust, but there's a mutual learning.
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Where I think he would say he's the student and the young people that he works with, and I say young, some are you know twenties, thirties sometimes they come, they go, and then they come back.
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But I still think of them as young.
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Um but he feels like he's the recipient of the goodness, and if he provides anything, you know, I it he's glad to because he he receives so much.
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And I just wonder how we adapt them in our work with students.
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Yeah.
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It does make me think about, you know, I work at a community college and we're open access.
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And I think the first few years that I worked at the college I work at, we, you know, you can be open access and just say, we're gonna take all the students that come to us.
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That is certainly one interpretation.
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Uh and if you were to look at our county at a macro level, we're relatively affluent and well off.
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I would say above the 50% mark in the state where we live.
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But when you start thinking about uh where your education and where your opportunities are not reaching, and you do the work to look more closely at data, um, like we started looking at the county at a census level instead.
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And we started at a zip code level, which is you know less granular than the county, but then we started looking at um a census level, and you start to see disparity both in uh socioeconomic status, but also disparity that lines up with where your educational opportunities, where your enrollment is not reaching as well.
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So you can then you can choose to think about open access from the perspective of we'll take whoever comes, or you can say, we're going to actively pursue people in areas that are not receiving education and that are living on the margins of poverty, whether it is below the poverty line or you know, one paycheck away from being at a poverty level.
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And that's the work that I've been drawn to as I've gotten, you know, deeper into my higher education career.
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I think you and I both worked in an institution that was by and large catering to very affluent students.
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It was great, it was fun, it was nice.
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I do think you can interpret open access to just limiting your thinking to the students that are that know about you and that have the cultural capital to know how a higher education can can benefit them.
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Or you can choose to think about it through another lens, which is look at all the good we're doing with the students who are coming here, who is missing from this equation and how can we engage them in in higher education, not just for the sake of being in higher education, but how do we put opportunities in front of them that get them beyond the poverty line so they're not living paycheck to paycheck and that they can afford to earn a living, not afford, that they're earning a living wage.
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I remember, particularly at the larger university that I worked in, that was more generous with aid when students were uh suspended and they were like, oh my God, I'll this must my one shot at a higher education.
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We could say, no, no, no, right down the street is the community college, and they will welcome you.
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You know, don't give up on this education, and you and we let them take classes for credit there during their time away, and and like and we're gonna welcome you back, but it it made it affordable, it helped them keep their momentum.
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And momentum is so important.
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I think you know, we have that's one of our metrics is can we keep students engaged so that they don't lose their pace and they don't fall into a situation where they've taken a large gap, like an entire fall semester, and now they've just gotten into a situation where they're working.
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Again, they're probably in a middle wage sort of job.
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It might feel comfortable now, and they're living again, paycheck to paycheck.
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But our goal is always to get them on a path to prosperity, that they're sharing in the prosperity that exists in our county already at a higher rate and hopefully bringing their family along with them and setting a new sort of familial expectation that you know we go to college in our family, that we or we earn a certification, something that gets us out of a rut of this paycheck to paycheck scenario.
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So, what were some of the takeaways from the the book?
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Since I didn't I didn't read it, but I've I've written it down.
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I'm adding it to my list.
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I think one of the most unexpected things people are people might be surprised to hear this is how much laugh out loud humor there is.
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When you have a joyful relationship with somebody, I mean, all kinds of things can happen.
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Truth can happen, love can happen, and you just can feel that joy in your work every day.
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And yet, I'm not sure at this point for him how many young people's funerals he has been to where they were victims of crime since he met them, or they also perpetrators of it, like the the double tragedy of them.
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And yeah, he just not he never ceases to have a sense of humor and and even the way he can correct people is is with humor, but also it welcome welcomes them to be able to correct him.
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And I I think about how many hearings, like most, there's a lot of laughter for me.
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And in the back of my head, I always wonder, like, am I gonna get in trouble for this?
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Or if somebody's shadowing me, are they gonna walk away like God, Colette just doesn't take this seriously?
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She doesn't she didn't provoke fear in the student, or you know, whatever the echo all is.
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And I admire that about you because I think that when I was doing student conduct work, I was more stoic and I think probably more dualistic than I would be now, um and also more dualistic than was probably beneficial to the student.
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I think my approach probably worked for a portion of the student population that we served, but I do wonder in retrospect, like could I have could I have had more of a positive influence if I had been more flexible with students or felt like I could be more of myself.
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There is also for me, I think, a layer of in the back of my head, I was always worried about being a queer professional and um, you know, how much in even in the early 2000s when I was doing this work, it did not feel safe to be my authentic self in all aspects of my work.
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I certainly was out to you as my supervisor and to my coworkers, but it was not often that I felt like it was appropriate for me to be out to students because it did feel like it crossed a line for some reason.
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I think about that now.
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It seems almost absurd to me to feel that way, but I feel that way in 2026.
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In 2003, 2004, we were still right up against the AIDS crisis and the vilification of queer people.
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And to be out at work meant something completely different.
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And it was very much, you know, where do you live?
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Is it okay, you know, there?
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Um, it might be cool on the East Coast, but in the Midwest, it might feel very different.
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I think of some research from back in like the early 90s where it showed that black men were they they tested higher for paranoia on psychic tests.
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But it also said, but they probably have good reason.
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Like paranoia might be an important survival skill.
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And I wonder for you at that time, stakes were very different.
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They were, yeah.
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And I I always take those studies with a grain of salt too, because you know, who developed the study?
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Who developed the the questionnaire?
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Uh parano is it paranoia or is it like a culturally biased survey?
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Right.
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Probably both, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um but and who are the role models?
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Yeah.
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Oh, sorry.
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No, no, no.
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You were going the same place I I was.
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I I think um contextually, you know, we if you are an other in a culture, it is difficult to conform without experiencing a certain amount of stress.
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I'm expected to behave a certain way in public and at work that is sometimes maybe not natural to me.
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And that occupies a part of my brain.
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And I think the same can be true for people from other races and ethnicities and cultures as well, that there is this constant grating against the norm.
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It I think it does damage, unfortunately.
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The stock is high for me when I meet someone that I'm like, that person is just 100% themselves.
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And I think you and I are probably pretty real.
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We don't put on a lot of pretense, maybe in different environments too, it comes and goes.
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But the per that rare person that is just 100% comfortable in their own skin wherever they go.
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I always am in awe of like, yeah.
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Actually, um, Father Boyle, the author of this book, feels that way to me.
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Like, my God, he is just so comfortable in his own skin, where he has no fear.
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Man, to be able to get to that point would be amazing.
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But I do think, you know, the rapport that we have, uh I think back that's that is 100% a factor of the environment that you created when we worked in residence life together.
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Because I did n I never felt like I could not be myself in that workplace professionally.
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Working with students, I sometimes did feel like, okay, I I need to uh what is that code switch?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But I I think that you very much set an environment where you know you encouraged us to bring our authentic selves to work and that it was seen as something that benefited the the culture at work.
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So you are always and I'll say too kind on on this show to the point where like I edit when I get to the editing wrong and I cut that compliment out.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:23:10.799
Um but I remember you you were very upfront when you uh came to work and said I do not like public speaking don't make me I I'll get all nervous and sweaty or I can't remember but it was like a physical thing for you.
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And um but I remember walking into a room we were having some RA meeting and it was a big staff like in an auditorium kind of classroom and I was there a few minutes late and you were just sitting on a desk up front just holding court with the students and so funny and comfortable with yourself.
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And I'm like wait a minute if I'd gotten here on time I would have been like up front taking over so that Kurt didn't have to but what the hell like he's so good at this I do like I enjoy talking to people I think what I've never liked is feeling like all eyes are on me.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:07.279
And again I think that was a survival thing from being a queer kid if all eyes were on me, all eyes were on me and it didn't feel safe.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:27.039
And I do I still have a little bit of a physical reaction but I think you always pushed me to push myself and I I did start speaking publicly more when I was working with you and continued that.
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And now it's something I feel like I have to do every week.
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So yeah I still an introvert still don't love it but it doesn't like cause me that insane like sweaty panic that I 100% used to experience.
00:24:44.160 --> 00:25:59.599
I wish we could go back in time though because now I think I have words for things that have become part of my philosophy but for both of us to go back as learners and I I mean I remember some hearings in my office back in those days where it it got to a shouting level like trying to you know I I'll put in quotes reason with now we have new skills for but to to understand now like in those moments where it we both were feeling awkward or needing to assert our authority like having just more things to draw from yeah I think a lot about there was a you you may remember this the student that I had such a I don't even know how to explain it it was an intense conversation I don't think we ever yelled but he got up to leave and he walked into my closet in the office instead of the door he was so disoriented and at the time I was like yeah that needed to happen but I don't know if I actually got through to that student.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:06.640
Like I don't know that I accomplished anything except literally disorienting him to the point of not knowing which way was out.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.400
I don't remember exactly what he did.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:44.079
I do remember it was a it was a serious conversation that needed to happen but I don't think I had all the tools that I needed for that conversation at the time did the best I could if I was doing it now 100% different I think I I think early in your career too and I mean when I say you like everyone's career they forget like we have four years with a student and they might not be getting something in the moment.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:27:01.920
And so we can just love them and say like you know what here is my intent right now it is to care for you and to keep you from limiting any life choices you might have later but I'm not gonna drag this out and try to make sure you know I'm right.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:12.160
But when you're young you don't you you think of it as like we have to do this in an hour or they'll never learn like no they might need to make a mistake again and and learn.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:12.960
Yeah.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:20.640
And I I think how much ego investment did I personally have in being right in those moments.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:26.079
You know I here I am I'm a new professional I don't have anything else to fall back on.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:34.000
I've got to be right in that scenario it it does create a s it creates a situation where you feel like you have to win in some capacity.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:39.680
And that again I don't think is it's not what's healthiest for the student.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:41.920
It is possibly good for your ego.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:42.480
Yeah.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:59.599
Why was I ever trusted with oh it doovers do overs for all of us yeah in in some ways I mean there are still students I would love to go back to like I am sorry.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:37.920
Yeah I I didn't get I like for you to have done what you did and that's what Father Boyle can see like he has some phrase like people don't join gangs because they're running to something they are running away from something and the gang is just I think about actually the fraternities that I worked with and the constant when I tell people how rewarding that work was I have to always say like no I'm serious.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.720
I I didn't say that as a joke.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:29:05.839
They they've joined this group that might torture them, like physically torture them but it's not because they want they it's because something else was worse for them and at least there's some law they're gonna feel this love even as toxic as it might be.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:45.440
And when I say that I just want to clarify like I think you know the the work that we did those are the rare groups because I really do believe in fraternities like the I believe in brotherhood and the importance of that but those are places where you can be vulnerable and find like actual healing kind of love with other people could you have done the work that you did with those fraternities as effectively when you were starting your career like do you feel like you always had that kind of perspective in you or is that something that very much came with time in the chair?
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:53.519
I wasn't ready for it but also the culture would never have supported that's a good point.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:31:15.920
Um there were a lot of things in place that made it possible I I had a supervisor and a president that were both willing to let me play the long game and do the restorative like hippy dippy stuff the the the father boyle kind of stuff like lead with trust lead but also there is great accountability with him he has a good story of a a guy who uh really struggled with heroin addiction and came to the the homeboy center and they wouldn't let him in he's like please father please let me in and and father boyle is just like I love you so much that I can't I won't let you in until you go get help it's not because I don't I like I will never stop loving you I love you so much I must insist that you get the help you need like damn I don't know if someone had given me this book when I was 20 would I have had this skill set but also you know would a president have trusted a 20 year old just I mean I wasn't 20 when I was associate dean of students but still I now I think it that felt very young.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:32:05.119
Yeah I um have thought a lot about loneliness as I read this book and he told a story about how a documentary crew uh or in one of the local news programs did this whole expose about gangs and they included the homeboys network and they're like this is part of what's wrong with the system is here here is this priest that's just enabling these criminals and they should all be in jail and he goes around he does a lot of education and people really get it in a big way but they're still most people just think these are men that should be incarcerated and that that that's the only real fix to show that you take things seriously.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:14.559
It's easier to uh hide problems than it is to change the environment or help people.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:22.559
What I appreciate with him is just he he just sees people and maybe he sees souls.
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:43.839
And the loneliness question I sort of had this answer come to me a couple nights ago where I was like because I want if I could sit down with him and just ask a Gregory how are you not just deeply lonely when you're doing things that you know work.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:33:00.640
The the grant some of the grant money they got depended on him being able to prove like a 30% like if 30% of the young people that came to homeboys did not go back to jail that was a success metric.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:34:14.960
And their number is 70% wow so it is profound what impact they have and um so it works and yet when you try to talk to people about these practices they're like well no I believe in accountability well how about getting rid of the problem and like things that lead to solutions anyway I I came to this realization that like what the heck he's never lonely because he has Jesus he talks about Jesus all the time that's why those uh Dominican nuns they're one of my only TikTok follows and uh I'm like what's the equivalent for that in student conduct that keeps you from being lonely and doing the idealists work I do I I think I always thought of that work as as being lonely because you you didn't have a lot of friends.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:30.159
I mean I remember you know getting phone calls from faculty members how could you do this to such and such a student and then you've got the parent calling and then you can't really talk to your colleagues about the work because it's private.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:53.679
So it does create a situation where you're maybe not understood and that resonated with me a little bit already but I I see the connections that people form at conferences and that does give me hope that there is you know it's an opportunity to talk to other people who are doing the work and get that it can be lonely.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:02.320
But there are also then people you can pick up the phone and call and say hey I'm dealing with this really unusual situation and I need to talk to somebody about it.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:09.519
And it seems like that exists now in a way that did not exist when I was doing the work.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.079
Yeah you find your people.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:47.039
Yeah yeah I think um you know there was a when I was doing that work in Resonance Life and I was doing that work alongside of you and with you we had each other but then after you left and they kind of pulled that piece out for the year and a half that I was there it was very weird because I did not feel like I had a support network at the school that we worked at and it became super isolating and that's why I think I didn't stay very long after that it just there was nothing I didn't have a sounding board.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:52.960
It it's hard to keep doing the work when you feel like you don't have a support system.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:36:43.440
Yeah you still always say like integrity is a lonely place to be and I used to I might still do this put a lot of hope in heroes there's a new president coming wow they are really gonna change things and set a new tone and I I did not understand culture and and when they when I had heroes that let me down oh those poor people talk about like needing to do healing the way they went from like hero to zero for me like I thought that you had integrity and I didn't understand how complex decisions have to be and you can't always make the idealistic move right away.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:49.039
Like you have to wait for your time and ah boy.
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:55.840
Yeah I think leadership on any college campus is probably a pretty lonely spot these days.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:17.360
I think there are pockets of loneliness in the work of higher education um but I I do try to avoid thinking about the work that other people do and assuming that I understand everything that they have to weigh when they're making a decision.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:22.800
Because it can look 100% look like why would they do that?
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:30.159
You know, that's ridiculous but I don't live their life I don't know you know what are their budgetary constraints?
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:43.440
What are the pressures they're getting externally from you know the people who fund us there are so many complicating factors and it's easy to brush it off and say well they could have done this you don't know.
00:37:43.679 --> 00:38:02.400
It's easy to cast judgment and doubt it is more difficult to seek to understand and be of support by offering a different perspective, asking questions, engaging in dialogue.
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:20.559
I think I've told you I'm tiptoeing into local government and I'm very mindful in a way I I probably have never been in my life before of trying to build relationships first.
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:40.719
And I see so many opportunities for leadership but right now our our little town it's there's a a board and then there's a microphone and an endless supply of people that will come and complain and want you to solve the board to solve their problems.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:39:29.440
And I'm trying to say I'd like to volunteer to help I have concerns but I'd like to help be part of the solution but I I don't have the expertise that you all have and you don't have a me and maybe together we could do some things but I never before had that wherewithal and I always say like oh it's easy to be a critic that's the easiest job of all but I I was often that person I think it depends on how you think about politicians and elected people in general because I would challenge that you you have always probably had a mindset for a particular kind of elected official.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:34.800
I think probably a public servant mindset fits you exceptionally well.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:48.239
You know I think we just had elections in our area and I was very excited when um a person I've worked with in a couple of different settings got elected to our Democratic central committee.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:40:01.119
And this is somebody in my mind that exemplifies public service uh and a public servant mentality I don't think she ever pretends to know more than she knows.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:20.800
She approaches every situation with the intent of understanding um developing relationships leveraging relationships for good making connections between people that might not be usual suspects to work together and encouraging them to collaborate.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:52.880
So I I think these are all things that you are well versed in um both naturally and professionally so I can see a spot for public servant in uh in your future I the last thing I want to do is run for office or have a position but I do have a campaign I you remember the know nothing party in US history?
00:40:53.199 --> 00:41:12.079
I would be the um know what you don't know party like I'm aware that I don't have expertise in zoning I'm aware that I don't have expertise in all the codes of the town but I know that I don't know that.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:28.480
Yeah and you don't I in my mind you don't have to know that but you need to be curious about it and you also need to be willing to be vulnerable and let people who are expert in that and showcase them.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:38.000
And I I think you know of all the things that somebody who is a higher education professional can do this to me makes a lot of sense.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:45.360
I I think it is taking the work that you do on a college campus and just thinking one level out.
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:51.679
Because the work you're doing as a conduct officer is about building a healthy community.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.000
And you're doing that through conversation you're doing it through collaboration.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:02.480
So take it out to the external community and what can that look like it might feel a little bit different.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:28.719
You might have to get slightly different set of tools or expertise but the foundation of it all is the same work that is already happening in colleges and universities around the country I think my superpower is that there's probab something probably pathological about this but I like being on the margins.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:34.079
Like I want to go work for homeboy industries.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:43:18.880
I think those are some of my people like when I went to RIT I'm like oh my god a campus full of nerds oh these are my people and then I got to Emerson college and I'm like oh man a bunch of theater nerds and artists and people that maybe didn't have strong peer groups in high school like the the band geeks like these are my people and people who got in trouble in these more already kind of marginalized groups like these are really my people uh and I that then we're back to that loneliness.
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:23.679
I like that's a sort of solitary place.
00:43:24.719 --> 00:45:15.679
Yeah I I think also though there is in doing that work you're finding your community as well so if it feels if it feels lonely maybe you just didn't find your your community yet in the in the work I'm not sure how to close this out this might be something where I I just sort of make an ending um or maybe we could do it right now is um Kurt we kind of went off on a tangent there um which was really fun but may not have been uh student conduct adjacent we might actually make an outtake video of our oh Kurt and I started talking about uh some political stuff that was interesting but not necessarily student affairs related adjacent but uh I would love if anyone this is the easiest book in the world to read even if you read one chapter I think it would change your life the the whole language by Gregory Boyle it's um the power of extravagant tenderness we didn't even get a chance to talk about that title extravagant tenderness it sounds like part of a recipe but go ahead yeah I'll I'll sprinkle in some tenderness but I want a whole platter of it all for myself the tofu was it was uh extravagantly extravagantly tender delicious well let's sign off here Kurt and we thank everyone for sticking with us and uh we will see you next time on Ms.
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:36.000
Behavior Bye Ms Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com you can contact Ms.
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:44.159
Behavior at Ms.Behaviorcollege at gmail.com that's msbehaviorcollege at gmail dot com
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.919
Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Ms.
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:13.279
Behavior Podcast.
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We are a podcast for professionals who do the work of college student conduct.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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We'll be your hosts.
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And we welcome you today to a conversation about a book that I recently read.
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We should probably do a little um business though.
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Kurt, we are right on top of our first ever book club for Ms.
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Behavior, the just desserts and dissertations book club.
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You know, some people are calling this the most heavily promoted dissertation of 2026.
00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.479
I think we actually deserve that superlative.
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I'm excited.
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I don't I don't think I talk this much about my own dissertation.
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So this is amazing to me.
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:08.079
The the dissertation uh book hour is 100% your brainchild.
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So kudos to you.
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No, it's a brilliant idea.
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We are open to anything that cleverly uses the word be in it, including the Ms.
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Be Happy Hour.
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And that Kurt, do you want to share your newest MsB idea?
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Yes.
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So I know we recently had a discussion about traders, and uh we were trying to brainstorm could we have an online game of traders?
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Uh an uncopy written version, maybe Mizbee Traitors.
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Uh and uh just curious if anybody would be interested in joining a virtual one-hour game of traders.
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I guess it'd be kind of like Dungeons and Dragons, but for traders, maybe?
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I don't know.
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Yeah.
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I think there used to be a game.
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We used to do an RA training called Assassin.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.640
I think it takes on a new title every so often.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:09.919
If you've never watched the TV show Traitors, it's just like a party game.
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But we think it could be exceptional training for being a hearing officer where you're trying to make decisions about whether you believe someone or not believe someone and how you read their behavior as signs of credibility.
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I think it's a test of everyone's thought that they're such a good judge of character.
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Yes, 100%.
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Yeah, I I'm excited to try it.
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It's it's gonna be an experiment, so we need some brave guinea pigs.
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How's that sound?
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I'll figure out a way to link to us, but right now, just contacting us.
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We have a website, I don't think I've ever even announced this, which is Ms.
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Behavior.framer dot website.
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It's a free website.
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So sorry, y'all, you have to type the whole thing, Ms.
00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:03.599
Behavior.framer dot website.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:11.120
But all our contact information is there, and you can send us a little note saying you think this is a great idea.
00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:18.960
And even better, that you'd like to be an experimental first participant in Ms.Breaters.
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Uh, we are also open to hearing that it's hot garbage andor a copyright infringement.
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So, you know, all feedback is feedback.
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To say it with civility, we ask.
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Because we're real humans with real feelings.
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Yes.
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And can they also tweet us on Facebook?
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Uh, they could Facebook, they could send us a DM on Instagram.
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So many options.
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We're we're so available and accessible.
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Are we on Threads or Blue Sky?
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I uh I did I keep forgetting to ask you.
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I just made my first threads post in like three or four months recently.
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I am figuring out, trying to figure out what what media works for which platforms and how to spend the time.
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Most of our folks are on Instagram and yeah, a little smattering other places.
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I feel like I'm slowly being lured into threads.
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Like now I'm getting things that look like Facebook posts in Facebook, but I click them and it's trying to get me to go back to.
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I opened a threads account when it first opened and I haven't touched it since.
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So it's prompting me to try to open it.
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I don't know if I like to be baited in that way.
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I think I just want to tap in a little more organically.
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So yeah.
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Yeah.
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TikTok's the one that's still a mystery for me, but I I love a TikTok.
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I I don't know if we're I don't know if we're TikTok ready, at least not for my algorithm.
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Uh, neither of us is cooking uh vegan meals, neither of us is a Boston Terrier, and uh neither of us has their shirt off.
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So I think not yet.
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That is most of my algorithm.
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You'll know we're really pandering.
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Show a little bit of arm.
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Um the uh I think the other thing that keeps showing up in my feed is people scaring each other.
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I guess I must have some weird thing like where I like to watch people get scared.
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I don't know.
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My algorithm is the Dominican nuns.
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I love, oh god, they're just so joyful.
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And what else is in my TikTok?
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There's some uh professors who are just big.
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Everything they do is viral, um faculty members.
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Okay.
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Not exciting.
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All different kinds of TikTok, I guess.
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So speaking of like Dominican nuns, uh this is a transition.
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I mean, where does this go?
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I thought we were gonna transition from the Mizby Traders, but I wanted to talk to you about a book I'm reading right now.
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Okay, which is blowing my mind and making me think a lot about my work and I have my pen ready.
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Aspirational work in the field of student conduct.
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The name might be familiar to a lot of people.
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The author is is Father Gregory Boyle.
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He is a Jesuit priest, and he works with a group called the Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, which is mostly gang members, ex-gang members, folks who have been to prison, people who are trying to stay out of prison, but it it creates jobs, it creates belonging.
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And the name of the book, sorry, that was a long buildup.
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Um, the punchline is uh the name of the book is the whole language, and then the subtitle is The Power of Extravagant Tenderness.
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:14.480
Oh wait, it's the whole The Whole Language.
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The power of extravagant tenderness.
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For me, it is a book uh came out in 2021.
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It's it is about true restorative work.
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Uh he works far on the margins.
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I can't imagine many populations more marginalized than the people that he works with.
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And they are people and they are holy to him.
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And so it just makes me think uh sometimes of our campuses.
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Like, here's somebody that is working with folks who have done real harm, and he just sees the deepest humanity in them.
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And I I just want everyone to read this and try to think of like how could we how do we do this on our campuses?
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It almost sounds it reminds me a little bit of the movie Dangerous Minds, a little bit.
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Is it sort of that sort of genre of somebody going in and working in areas that some people that many people overlook or are not interested in working in?
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Yeah, and I think even I I heard an interview with him, gosh, a lot of years ago, and he was talking about meeting with his supervisor to figure out where's what his assignment was going to be.
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And he said something like, Whatever it is, uh as long as it's not in the inner city, working with youth, like that's not really my jam.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.159
I would do better somewhere else.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:08.000
And his supervisor said, Well, Saint Ignatius then would say the exact place you need to be is working with youth and in the inner city.
00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:28.000
And I've heard him in a different interview say he got there and he he thought he was going to be this peacemaker, and that he would do like shuttle diplomacy between gangs, and then they'd all become friends again.
00:09:32.799 --> 00:10:00.000
But what really succeeded was just providing a place where people were accepted and and just loved where there was a belonging and then and then there was you know job training and um the practical parts of it and getting help finding an apartment, like who's gonna rent to a felon.
00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:17.840
And so I I think sometimes some of the student conduct codes that I have seen where w we just don't trust students, like there's a this underlying value of distrust.
00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:31.919
Uh and here he is, you know, he goes to work every day and not not just trust, but there's a mutual learning.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:51.519
Where I think he would say he's the student and the young people that he works with, and I say young, some are you know twenties, thirties sometimes they come, they go, and then they come back.
00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.960
But I still think of them as young.
00:10:55.200 --> 00:11:12.879
Um but he feels like he's the recipient of the goodness, and if he provides anything, you know, I it he's glad to because he he receives so much.
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:19.120
And I just wonder how we adapt them in our work with students.
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:20.480
Yeah.
00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:27.039
It does make me think about, you know, I work at a community college and we're open access.
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:39.600
And I think the first few years that I worked at the college I work at, we, you know, you can be open access and just say, we're gonna take all the students that come to us.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.000
That is certainly one interpretation.
00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:50.320
Uh and if you were to look at our county at a macro level, we're relatively affluent and well off.
00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.879
I would say above the 50% mark in the state where we live.
00:11:55.679 --> 00:12:14.240
But when you start thinking about uh where your education and where your opportunities are not reaching, and you do the work to look more closely at data, um, like we started looking at the county at a census level instead.
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:36.159
And we started at a zip code level, which is you know less granular than the county, but then we started looking at um a census level, and you start to see disparity both in uh socioeconomic status, but also disparity that lines up with where your educational opportunities, where your enrollment is not reaching as well.
00:12:36.399 --> 00:13:02.000
So you can then you can choose to think about open access from the perspective of we'll take whoever comes, or you can say, we're going to actively pursue people in areas that are not receiving education and that are living on the margins of poverty, whether it is below the poverty line or you know, one paycheck away from being at a poverty level.
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:07.919
And that's the work that I've been drawn to as I've gotten, you know, deeper into my higher education career.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:15.120
I think you and I both worked in an institution that was by and large catering to very affluent students.
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.480
It was great, it was fun, it was nice.
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:32.639
I do think you can interpret open access to just limiting your thinking to the students that are that know about you and that have the cultural capital to know how a higher education can can benefit them.
00:13:32.879 --> 00:14:01.519
Or you can choose to think about it through another lens, which is look at all the good we're doing with the students who are coming here, who is missing from this equation and how can we engage them in in higher education, not just for the sake of being in higher education, but how do we put opportunities in front of them that get them beyond the poverty line so they're not living paycheck to paycheck and that they can afford to earn a living, not afford, that they're earning a living wage.
00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:22.399
I remember, particularly at the larger university that I worked in, that was more generous with aid when students were uh suspended and they were like, oh my God, I'll this must my one shot at a higher education.
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:29.919
We could say, no, no, no, right down the street is the community college, and they will welcome you.
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:48.080
You know, don't give up on this education, and you and we let them take classes for credit there during their time away, and and like and we're gonna welcome you back, but it it made it affordable, it helped them keep their momentum.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:51.759
And momentum is so important.
00:14:51.919 --> 00:15:10.080
I think you know, we have that's one of our metrics is can we keep students engaged so that they don't lose their pace and they don't fall into a situation where they've taken a large gap, like an entire fall semester, and now they've just gotten into a situation where they're working.
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.519
Again, they're probably in a middle wage sort of job.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.919
It might feel comfortable now, and they're living again, paycheck to paycheck.
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:46.240
But our goal is always to get them on a path to prosperity, that they're sharing in the prosperity that exists in our county already at a higher rate and hopefully bringing their family along with them and setting a new sort of familial expectation that you know we go to college in our family, that we or we earn a certification, something that gets us out of a rut of this paycheck to paycheck scenario.
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.240
So, what were some of the takeaways from the the book?
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.039
Since I didn't I didn't read it, but I've I've written it down.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.720
I'm adding it to my list.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:06.320
I think one of the most unexpected things people are people might be surprised to hear this is how much laugh out loud humor there is.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:13.120
When you have a joyful relationship with somebody, I mean, all kinds of things can happen.
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:21.679
Truth can happen, love can happen, and you just can feel that joy in your work every day.
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:39.360
And yet, I'm not sure at this point for him how many young people's funerals he has been to where they were victims of crime since he met them, or they also perpetrators of it, like the the double tragedy of them.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:57.759
And yeah, he just not he never ceases to have a sense of humor and and even the way he can correct people is is with humor, but also it welcome welcomes them to be able to correct him.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:06.480
And I I think about how many hearings, like most, there's a lot of laughter for me.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.799
And in the back of my head, I always wonder, like, am I gonna get in trouble for this?
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:17.440
Or if somebody's shadowing me, are they gonna walk away like God, Colette just doesn't take this seriously?
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:25.119
She doesn't she didn't provoke fear in the student, or you know, whatever the echo all is.
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:46.799
And I admire that about you because I think that when I was doing student conduct work, I was more stoic and I think probably more dualistic than I would be now, um and also more dualistic than was probably beneficial to the student.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:18:06.880
I think my approach probably worked for a portion of the student population that we served, but I do wonder in retrospect, like could I have could I have had more of a positive influence if I had been more flexible with students or felt like I could be more of myself.
00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:28.160
There is also for me, I think, a layer of in the back of my head, I was always worried about being a queer professional and um, you know, how much in even in the early 2000s when I was doing this work, it did not feel safe to be my authentic self in all aspects of my work.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:43.839
I certainly was out to you as my supervisor and to my coworkers, but it was not often that I felt like it was appropriate for me to be out to students because it did feel like it crossed a line for some reason.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:45.039
I think about that now.
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:52.000
It seems almost absurd to me to feel that way, but I feel that way in 2026.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:19:02.480
In 2003, 2004, we were still right up against the AIDS crisis and the vilification of queer people.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:08.319
And to be out at work meant something completely different.
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.920
And it was very much, you know, where do you live?
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.799
Is it okay, you know, there?
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:19.359
Um, it might be cool on the East Coast, but in the Midwest, it might feel very different.
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:32.319
I think of some research from back in like the early 90s where it showed that black men were they they tested higher for paranoia on psychic tests.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.960
But it also said, but they probably have good reason.
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:42.000
Like paranoia might be an important survival skill.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:47.839
And I wonder for you at that time, stakes were very different.
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:49.839
They were, yeah.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:57.680
And I I always take those studies with a grain of salt too, because you know, who developed the study?
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.000
Who developed the the questionnaire?
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:06.000
Uh parano is it paranoia or is it like a culturally biased survey?
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:06.880
Right.
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.400
Probably both, yeah.
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:08.720
Yeah.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.599
Um but and who are the role models?
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:14.000
Yeah.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:14.799
Oh, sorry.
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:15.599
No, no, no.
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:17.440
You were going the same place I I was.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:32.240
I I think um contextually, you know, we if you are an other in a culture, it is difficult to conform without experiencing a certain amount of stress.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:39.599
I'm expected to behave a certain way in public and at work that is sometimes maybe not natural to me.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.039
And that occupies a part of my brain.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:55.119
And I think the same can be true for people from other races and ethnicities and cultures as well, that there is this constant grating against the norm.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.480
It I think it does damage, unfortunately.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:08.720
The stock is high for me when I meet someone that I'm like, that person is just 100% themselves.
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.240
And I think you and I are probably pretty real.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:19.359
We don't put on a lot of pretense, maybe in different environments too, it comes and goes.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:28.000
But the per that rare person that is just 100% comfortable in their own skin wherever they go.
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.720
I always am in awe of like, yeah.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:35.279
Actually, um, Father Boyle, the author of this book, feels that way to me.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:44.799
Like, my God, he is just so comfortable in his own skin, where he has no fear.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.119
Man, to be able to get to that point would be amazing.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:22:03.599
But I do think, you know, the rapport that we have, uh I think back that's that is 100% a factor of the environment that you created when we worked in residence life together.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:10.400
Because I did n I never felt like I could not be myself in that workplace professionally.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:19.119
Working with students, I sometimes did feel like, okay, I I need to uh what is that code switch?
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:20.880
Yeah.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:21.599
Yeah.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:35.680
But I I think that you very much set an environment where you know you encouraged us to bring our authentic selves to work and that it was seen as something that benefited the the culture at work.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:48.079
So you are always and I'll say too kind on on this show to the point where like I edit when I get to the editing wrong and I cut that compliment out.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:23:10.799
Um but I remember you you were very upfront when you uh came to work and said I do not like public speaking don't make me I I'll get all nervous and sweaty or I can't remember but it was like a physical thing for you.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:34.160
And um but I remember walking into a room we were having some RA meeting and it was a big staff like in an auditorium kind of classroom and I was there a few minutes late and you were just sitting on a desk up front just holding court with the students and so funny and comfortable with yourself.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:57.599
And I'm like wait a minute if I'd gotten here on time I would have been like up front taking over so that Kurt didn't have to but what the hell like he's so good at this I do like I enjoy talking to people I think what I've never liked is feeling like all eyes are on me.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:07.279
And again I think that was a survival thing from being a queer kid if all eyes were on me, all eyes were on me and it didn't feel safe.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:27.039
And I do I still have a little bit of a physical reaction but I think you always pushed me to push myself and I I did start speaking publicly more when I was working with you and continued that.
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.000
And now it's something I feel like I have to do every week.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:43.759
So yeah I still an introvert still don't love it but it doesn't like cause me that insane like sweaty panic that I 100% used to experience.
00:24:44.160 --> 00:25:59.599
I wish we could go back in time though because now I think I have words for things that have become part of my philosophy but for both of us to go back as learners and I I mean I remember some hearings in my office back in those days where it it got to a shouting level like trying to you know I I'll put in quotes reason with now we have new skills for but to to understand now like in those moments where it we both were feeling awkward or needing to assert our authority like having just more things to draw from yeah I think a lot about there was a you you may remember this the student that I had such a I don't even know how to explain it it was an intense conversation I don't think we ever yelled but he got up to leave and he walked into my closet in the office instead of the door he was so disoriented and at the time I was like yeah that needed to happen but I don't know if I actually got through to that student.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:06.640
Like I don't know that I accomplished anything except literally disorienting him to the point of not knowing which way was out.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.400
I don't remember exactly what he did.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:44.079
I do remember it was a it was a serious conversation that needed to happen but I don't think I had all the tools that I needed for that conversation at the time did the best I could if I was doing it now 100% different I think I I think early in your career too and I mean when I say you like everyone's career they forget like we have four years with a student and they might not be getting something in the moment.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:27:01.920
And so we can just love them and say like you know what here is my intent right now it is to care for you and to keep you from limiting any life choices you might have later but I'm not gonna drag this out and try to make sure you know I'm right.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:12.160
But when you're young you don't you you think of it as like we have to do this in an hour or they'll never learn like no they might need to make a mistake again and and learn.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:12.960
Yeah.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:20.640
And I I think how much ego investment did I personally have in being right in those moments.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:26.079
You know I here I am I'm a new professional I don't have anything else to fall back on.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:34.000
I've got to be right in that scenario it it does create a s it creates a situation where you feel like you have to win in some capacity.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:39.680
And that again I don't think is it's not what's healthiest for the student.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:41.920
It is possibly good for your ego.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:42.480
Yeah.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:59.599
Why was I ever trusted with oh it doovers do overs for all of us yeah in in some ways I mean there are still students I would love to go back to like I am sorry.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:37.920
Yeah I I didn't get I like for you to have done what you did and that's what Father Boyle can see like he has some phrase like people don't join gangs because they're running to something they are running away from something and the gang is just I think about actually the fraternities that I worked with and the constant when I tell people how rewarding that work was I have to always say like no I'm serious.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.720
I I didn't say that as a joke.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:29:05.839
They they've joined this group that might torture them, like physically torture them but it's not because they want they it's because something else was worse for them and at least there's some law they're gonna feel this love even as toxic as it might be.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:45.440
And when I say that I just want to clarify like I think you know the the work that we did those are the rare groups because I really do believe in fraternities like the I believe in brotherhood and the importance of that but those are places where you can be vulnerable and find like actual healing kind of love with other people could you have done the work that you did with those fraternities as effectively when you were starting your career like do you feel like you always had that kind of perspective in you or is that something that very much came with time in the chair?
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:53.519
I wasn't ready for it but also the culture would never have supported that's a good point.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:31:15.920
Um there were a lot of things in place that made it possible I I had a supervisor and a president that were both willing to let me play the long game and do the restorative like hippy dippy stuff the the the father boyle kind of stuff like lead with trust lead but also there is great accountability with him he has a good story of a a guy who uh really struggled with heroin addiction and came to the the homeboy center and they wouldn't let him in he's like please father please let me in and and father boyle is just like I love you so much that I can't I won't let you in until you go get help it's not because I don't I like I will never stop loving you I love you so much I must insist that you get the help you need like damn I don't know if someone had given me this book when I was 20 would I have had this skill set but also you know would a president have trusted a 20 year old just I mean I wasn't 20 when I was associate dean of students but still I now I think it that felt very young.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:32:05.119
Yeah I um have thought a lot about loneliness as I read this book and he told a story about how a documentary crew uh or in one of the local news programs did this whole expose about gangs and they included the homeboys network and they're like this is part of what's wrong with the system is here here is this priest that's just enabling these criminals and they should all be in jail and he goes around he does a lot of education and people really get it in a big way but they're still most people just think these are men that should be incarcerated and that that that's the only real fix to show that you take things seriously.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:14.559
It's easier to uh hide problems than it is to change the environment or help people.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:22.559
What I appreciate with him is just he he just sees people and maybe he sees souls.
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:43.839
And the loneliness question I sort of had this answer come to me a couple nights ago where I was like because I want if I could sit down with him and just ask a Gregory how are you not just deeply lonely when you're doing things that you know work.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:33:00.640
The the grant some of the grant money they got depended on him being able to prove like a 30% like if 30% of the young people that came to homeboys did not go back to jail that was a success metric.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:34:14.960
And their number is 70% wow so it is profound what impact they have and um so it works and yet when you try to talk to people about these practices they're like well no I believe in accountability well how about getting rid of the problem and like things that lead to solutions anyway I I came to this realization that like what the heck he's never lonely because he has Jesus he talks about Jesus all the time that's why those uh Dominican nuns they're one of my only TikTok follows and uh I'm like what's the equivalent for that in student conduct that keeps you from being lonely and doing the idealists work I do I I think I always thought of that work as as being lonely because you you didn't have a lot of friends.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:30.159
I mean I remember you know getting phone calls from faculty members how could you do this to such and such a student and then you've got the parent calling and then you can't really talk to your colleagues about the work because it's private.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:53.679
So it does create a situation where you're maybe not understood and that resonated with me a little bit already but I I see the connections that people form at conferences and that does give me hope that there is you know it's an opportunity to talk to other people who are doing the work and get that it can be lonely.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:02.320
But there are also then people you can pick up the phone and call and say hey I'm dealing with this really unusual situation and I need to talk to somebody about it.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:09.519
And it seems like that exists now in a way that did not exist when I was doing the work.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.079
Yeah you find your people.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:47.039
Yeah yeah I think um you know there was a when I was doing that work in Resonance Life and I was doing that work alongside of you and with you we had each other but then after you left and they kind of pulled that piece out for the year and a half that I was there it was very weird because I did not feel like I had a support network at the school that we worked at and it became super isolating and that's why I think I didn't stay very long after that it just there was nothing I didn't have a sounding board.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:52.960
It it's hard to keep doing the work when you feel like you don't have a support system.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:36:43.440
Yeah you still always say like integrity is a lonely place to be and I used to I might still do this put a lot of hope in heroes there's a new president coming wow they are really gonna change things and set a new tone and I I did not understand culture and and when they when I had heroes that let me down oh those poor people talk about like needing to do healing the way they went from like hero to zero for me like I thought that you had integrity and I didn't understand how complex decisions have to be and you can't always make the idealistic move right away.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:49.039
Like you have to wait for your time and ah boy.
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:55.840
Yeah I think leadership on any college campus is probably a pretty lonely spot these days.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:17.360
I think there are pockets of loneliness in the work of higher education um but I I do try to avoid thinking about the work that other people do and assuming that I understand everything that they have to weigh when they're making a decision.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:22.800
Because it can look 100% look like why would they do that?
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:30.159
You know, that's ridiculous but I don't live their life I don't know you know what are their budgetary constraints?
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:43.440
What are the pressures they're getting externally from you know the people who fund us there are so many complicating factors and it's easy to brush it off and say well they could have done this you don't know.
00:37:43.679 --> 00:38:02.400
It's easy to cast judgment and doubt it is more difficult to seek to understand and be of support by offering a different perspective, asking questions, engaging in dialogue.
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:20.559
I think I've told you I'm tiptoeing into local government and I'm very mindful in a way I I probably have never been in my life before of trying to build relationships first.
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:40.719
And I see so many opportunities for leadership but right now our our little town it's there's a a board and then there's a microphone and an endless supply of people that will come and complain and want you to solve the board to solve their problems.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:39:29.440
And I'm trying to say I'd like to volunteer to help I have concerns but I'd like to help be part of the solution but I I don't have the expertise that you all have and you don't have a me and maybe together we could do some things but I never before had that wherewithal and I always say like oh it's easy to be a critic that's the easiest job of all but I I was often that person I think it depends on how you think about politicians and elected people in general because I would challenge that you you have always probably had a mindset for a particular kind of elected official.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:34.800
I think probably a public servant mindset fits you exceptionally well.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:48.239
You know I think we just had elections in our area and I was very excited when um a person I've worked with in a couple of different settings got elected to our Democratic central committee.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:40:01.119
And this is somebody in my mind that exemplifies public service uh and a public servant mentality I don't think she ever pretends to know more than she knows.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:20.800
She approaches every situation with the intent of understanding um developing relationships leveraging relationships for good making connections between people that might not be usual suspects to work together and encouraging them to collaborate.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:52.880
So I I think these are all things that you are well versed in um both naturally and professionally so I can see a spot for public servant in uh in your future I the last thing I want to do is run for office or have a position but I do have a campaign I you remember the know nothing party in US history?
00:40:53.199 --> 00:41:12.079
I would be the um know what you don't know party like I'm aware that I don't have expertise in zoning I'm aware that I don't have expertise in all the codes of the town but I know that I don't know that.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:28.480
Yeah and you don't I in my mind you don't have to know that but you need to be curious about it and you also need to be willing to be vulnerable and let people who are expert in that and showcase them.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:38.000
And I I think you know of all the things that somebody who is a higher education professional can do this to me makes a lot of sense.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:45.360
I I think it is taking the work that you do on a college campus and just thinking one level out.
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:51.679
Because the work you're doing as a conduct officer is about building a healthy community.
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And you're doing that through conversation you're doing it through collaboration.
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So take it out to the external community and what can that look like it might feel a little bit different.
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You might have to get slightly different set of tools or expertise but the foundation of it all is the same work that is already happening in colleges and universities around the country I think my superpower is that there's probab something probably pathological about this but I like being on the margins.
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Like I want to go work for homeboy industries.
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I think those are some of my people like when I went to RIT I'm like oh my god a campus full of nerds oh these are my people and then I got to Emerson college and I'm like oh man a bunch of theater nerds and artists and people that maybe didn't have strong peer groups in high school like the the band geeks like these are my people and people who got in trouble in these more already kind of marginalized groups like these are really my people uh and I that then we're back to that loneliness.
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I like that's a sort of solitary place.
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Yeah I I think also though there is in doing that work you're finding your community as well so if it feels if it feels lonely maybe you just didn't find your your community yet in the in the work I'm not sure how to close this out this might be something where I I just sort of make an ending um or maybe we could do it right now is um Kurt we kind of went off on a tangent there um which was really fun but may not have been uh student conduct adjacent we might actually make an outtake video of our oh Kurt and I started talking about uh some political stuff that was interesting but not necessarily student affairs related adjacent but uh I would love if anyone this is the easiest book in the world to read even if you read one chapter I think it would change your life the the whole language by Gregory Boyle it's um the power of extravagant tenderness we didn't even get a chance to talk about that title extravagant tenderness it sounds like part of a recipe but go ahead yeah I'll I'll sprinkle in some tenderness but I want a whole platter of it all for myself the tofu was it was uh extravagantly extravagantly tender delicious well let's sign off here Kurt and we thank everyone for sticking with us and uh we will see you next time on Ms.
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Behavior Bye Ms Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com you can contact Ms.
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Behavior at Ms.Behaviorcollege at gmail.com that's msbehaviorcollege at gmail dot com
