WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:01.199
I'm gonna swear a lot today.
00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:02.879
Wow, I see.
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:08.720
Maybe it will give a little uh display trigger warning at the beginning of this one.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:13.439
Mature content, language, uh it may breach into violence.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:14.800
I have a pen over here.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:15.359
I don't know.
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.359
So they made a crappy slash shitty decision.
00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:29.359
Welcome to the Ms.
00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:30.719
Behavior Podcast.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:32.000
My name is Colette.
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:33.200
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:37.200
We're here to talk about all things college student conduct.
00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:39.039
And we welcome you.
00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:47.359
We are today going to do some exploration of another timely issue that's going on that we think could affect all of us.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:01:01.200
And that is a lawsuit that seven students at Florida International University have lodged against the university related to a conduct case about freedom of expression.
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.920
Are you familiar with this case, Kurt?
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:04.879
I am.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:13.200
I I read up on it a little bit earlier in the week, and I was peeking at it again today, and it's so interesting.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:16.959
I think there are a couple of intersecting issues here for me.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:39.280
One is that this is taking place in Florida, and I think there has been a concerted effort for the past few years to stifle higher education in Florida, but also there is a conservative stronghold that seems to really value uh First Amendment rights, and this seems like it is doing the opposite.
00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:44.640
It is appears to be squashing uh the First Amendment rights of these students.
00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.040
Make it make sense, is where I'm going with this.
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:54.560
The article that I think Kurt and I both read was Students Punished for Silent Protest, Sue Florida International You.
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.560
This was in the Chronicle of Higher Education on August 12th.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:21.599
In a nutshell, there were seven students who attended a program with I think A-Rod, the baseball player, and they were protesting the fact that their university seems to have signed on to a partnership with ICE, where their campus law enforcement is going to become ICE agents.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:26.319
So the students wore t-shirts that said ICE off FIU.
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:33.759
And at the beginning of the program, they all stood up in the front row of the auditorium.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.599
They turned around and showed their t-shirts silently.
00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.759
It was said that they did this for a few minutes, which I'm not sure.
00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.360
A few minutes can seem like a really long time.
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:50.400
If we sat here for three minutes, it would probably feel like a really long silence.
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:52.479
Um, but they were not asked to leave.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:59.439
They kind of they did their thing and then they quietly walked away and left, and the program continued.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199
They were held accountable by some student conduct process.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:24.879
I had some questions about how it was adjudicated, and they all ended up with reprimand warnings and a sanction that they have to each do a two-minute video reflecting on what is called code 110 at FIU, which is their expression code, to demonstrate that they have an understanding of the code.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:26.400
Didn't I get that right?
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.639
That sounds exactly right to me.
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:38.719
It does not, however, answer any of my what the fuck questions about this situation because, first of all, like I think they refer to them as expressive activities.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.000
If they said protest activities, that would make more sense to me.
00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:43.520
But expressive activities.
00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:48.479
So what I hear is that this school potentially made some shitty decisions.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.840
I'm gonna swear a lot today.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:51.439
Wow, I see.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:57.199
Maybe we'll give a little uh display or trigger warning at the beginning of this one.
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.919
Mature content, language, uh, it may breach into violence.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.280
I have a pen over here.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:04.159
I don't know.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:12.080
Um, so they made a crappy slash shitty decision to turn their police force into ICE agents.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:19.839
And these students, these brave students, decided to exercise their freedom of expression or freedom of speech.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.279
And ooh, they stood up in front of a room.
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:25.439
The calamity that must have created.
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:26.240
Good for them.
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.800
Somebody should be standing up to this bullshit.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:34.079
They left of their own fruition, they didn't need to be pulled out in handcuffs.
00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.319
Sounds like they just walked out peacefully.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:42.160
They didn't disrupt the program except to stand up, and now they have to make a bullshit two-minute video.
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:55.360
I hope every one of those fucking students wears that t-shirt in the video and just stands there for two minutes to show that they understand exactly what that policy is about, because that policy is intended to create a chilling environment on a college campus.
00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:57.360
And that is not what higher education's about.
00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:06.079
If you run a legitimate higher education institution, the whole premise is that it's an opportunity for people to learn from each other and debate.
00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:10.000
And to me, this is the core of what that can look like.
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:18.000
If you disagree with something, there are peaceful ways to engage in disagreement and start a conversation.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:19.920
And this is an excellent example.
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.000
So this pisses me off.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.560
I'm fascinated by this right now.
00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:34.160
If you are new to our podcast or you haven't picked up on it, Kurt and I frequently say that he sort of represents the rule following mindset.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:41.680
And I tend to come from things at the rule scrutinizing perspective, but we might be switching roles here.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:43.279
Oh no, are we switching?
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:52.079
I I just have lots of questions, which could lead me to team Kurt pretty easily.
00:05:52.399 --> 00:06:02.079
First, I wanted to know, I uh I should have known this, but I didn't know if Florida International was a public institution or a private institution.
00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.879
You work for a a public institution, and I work for a private, so we can make more rules.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:17.439
Like if we were at some schools, you're you're not allowed to dance, you're not allowed to hold hands, things that might be seen as constitutional rights.
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.879
But uh it is FIU is public.
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:38.959
And you're right that this is a climate that we're supposed to be living in where freedom of expression is supposed to be one of the big tenets of our current federal administration, and Florida in particular feels like someone that should be upholding student rights of expression.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:50.399
But I guess to me, this is we're only going to value expression that aligns with our political ideologies or our belief systems and not anything that challenges that.
00:06:50.720 --> 00:07:04.800
So I did look up their student code for disruptive activity, which is not part of code 110, but just to kind of get a sense of what their philosophy was about what's considered disruptive.
00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:25.120
But the the words they use very carefully are um behavior that substantially and materially disrupts, disturbs, impairs, interferes with or obstructs the orderly conduct processes and functions of the classroom, surrounding areas.
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:36.319
Then they have a very specific code about expression, but the uh it seemed from their disruption code that you really have to be pretty disruptive.
00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:50.000
And like material, like did their protest interfere with Arod's interview there, which I would tend to think the program went on, it was a good program.
00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.519
People didn't leave the auditorium because they were so afraid or so disrupted.
00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:07.199
I and I don't know that they were charged with disruptive behavior, but the places where you're allowed to dis express yourself, it looks like on their campus are exclusively outdoors.
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:09.759
And this was an indoor event.
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.959
But did you notice in their expression code?
00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.360
I thought just thought this was very interesting.
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:28.560
No person shall wear a mask, personal disguise, hood, or any item to conceal their identity with the intent to intimidate any person or group.
00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.799
So I'm just curious, is that not what ICE does 24-7?
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.639
As a job, which is very intimidating.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:50.879
And if I were at a student at a place called Florida International, they they recruit and they take pride in the fact that they have such diversity on their campus.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:57.360
I just question like, what are the spoken values and what are the unspoken values of their campus?
00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:08.480
You know, I think if you want to talk about disruptive activity on campus, introducing a polarizing entity like ice on a college campus is 100% disruptive.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:15.279
It is going to create for some people a fearful environment where they're not going to learn effectively.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.519
Uh, they might not even come to campus anymore.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:22.799
Again, I it just feels counter to the purpose of higher education to me.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:31.360
I I looked up the mission statements and the purpose statements about their student conduct area and the institution.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.440
And they talk a lot about learning and the joy of learning.
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.600
They describe their conduct office as educational.
00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:46.000
And I especially I'm well, I'll explain why this means something to me, but the word developmental.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.240
They say that it is developmental.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:54.720
And I heard a podcast recently, it was Student Affairs Now with Heather Shea.
00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:07.759
And dang, they interviewed Patricia King, who's one of the like icons of student development, who has never slowed down in refining what student development needs.
00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:17.360
And she's like, everybody says they're developmental, but what developmental really means is that you learn to see the world more complexly.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:25.279
And so I look at that sanction of the two-minute video, and I'm like, is that helping students think more critically?
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:31.360
Because I'm pretty sure if they are expressing critical thought, they're gonna have to redo their videos.
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:36.080
And I do understand colleges and universities having designated places.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:41.600
You can't tell people they can't do something, but you can't dictate the time, place, and manner in which they do it.
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:42.879
Fully agree with that.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.399
And I can see the flip side of that.
00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:49.279
But when I think about that, I think about what I would consider more traditional protest activity.
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.080
You're out there with a megaphone, you are chanting.
00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.440
Like, is silent protest really in that same category?
00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:03.519
I think the litmus test at schools I've worked at is is it is what's happening disrupting the academic operation of the college?
00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:09.919
Unless A Rod is now a professor at FIU, um could happen.
00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.919
Uh I don't know.
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:18.320
This this I don't know if this is a classroom situation or if it was part of uh an extracurricular piece.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:18.879
Yeah.
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.039
So now I'm gonna jump over to what might the FIU administration be dealing with?
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.840
Why would they go into cahoots with ICE?
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.879
They might be under a lot of pressure.
00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:31.759
I'm not sure.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:38.480
Maybe the name Florida International draws a different scrutiny from the government.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:47.440
And FIU might not have Harvard money or you know, Columbia money where they can afford to sue the government for pressure.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.279
I'm trying to see the good intent.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.440
Yeah, I haven't heard of other campuses doing this.
00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:02.240
Is this like, are they one of hundreds of campuses that now are collaborating with ICE or were they under a special microscope?
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:09.600
I mean, I don't know if I'm an international student and I hear that there's going to be an ICE presence on campus 24-7.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.039
Am I going to even bother applying to a school like that?
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:26.159
Because it does not seem as an outsider that there's any rhyme or reason when ICE detains people, whether they're citizens or whether they are people from other countries, whether they're here legally or illegally.
00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.679
Uh, it doesn't seem like there's an element of discernment in that.
00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:36.080
So I would be hard pressed if I was even coming from Canada, am I going to go to FIU after hearing that?
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.080
And what does that do to their enrollment?
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:38.480
Right.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:48.240
You're getting squeezed from the demographic cliff where we're all fighting, we're all scrapping it out with each other trying to attract students.
00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:56.080
They do have a significant number of students who are supposed to have DACA protection, but I don't know what that means anymore.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:05.360
And I did see that the ACLU picked up their case, which is uh the the students' case, which is a good outcome for the students.
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:06.480
I hope they win.
00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:07.200
Honestly, yeah.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.679
FIRE is also supporting them.
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:10.720
It'll be interesting.
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:16.000
There they all have the same lawyer, so we'll probably see one outcome for all.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:21.919
I'd really like to see their sanction says I read the lawsuit that was submitted.
00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:42.240
So it says the reflection sanction is to create a two-minute video explaining your understanding of FIU Regulation 110, what is expected under FIU Regulation 110 related to indoor and outdoor areas, and how you will apply what you have learned moving forward.
00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.279
The video must be your original work.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:50.799
The video must be thoughtful and substantive in its response to the prompt.
00:13:51.200 --> 00:14:01.759
Office of Student Conduct and Academic Integrity reserves the right to ask you to resubmit your work if it does not adhere to the outlined instructions.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:08.000
So their website says that they do have an educational philosophy in their system.
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:15.759
And if a student is critical and says in their video, I don't know, like here is what the code says, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:16.799
Read the code.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:22.080
My understanding is you're only supposed to protest outside and not inside.
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:27.279
And in terms of applying what I learned, I already knew that.
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:33.679
And I made a decision to go in and do something that I thought was fairly not disruptive.
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.679
So I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm really going to think about it.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:46.720
So, as a conduct officer, what are you looking for if you know you put yourself in the shoes of the conduct officer at this school?
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.919
What are you looking for?
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.960
I almost never give these reflection assignments.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:02.559
I don't give papers, or I know schools that are like, oh no, you they can do a video, they could do an art project, but it's still it feels like you're asking them, like, tell me what I want to hear.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:02.960
Yeah.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:12.559
And I I watched some videos recently where I described it, it looked like a hostage video where the student is like, I will never break the rule again.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:18.639
And I know that the rules are very important to maintain a civil environment.
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:28.960
And it it's they probably got like an A plus, and it felt fake and it didn't feel like the student was thinking more complexly.
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:36.559
If anything, we're trying to narrow students to think this is the rule, and I will never protest indoors again.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:44.240
But maybe for their conduct, folks, they're like, I just want to know that they know what the rule is and that they understand the risk.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:50.480
Now their version, their reprimand in their sanction list, it looks to be the lowest thing that you can apply.
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.240
So for them, it's a warning.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.039
It means they are all still in good standing.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:01.759
The video reads to me like it is supporting documentation for a subsequent violation.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.480
That if they do it again, they say, Well, you made this video and you said you understood.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:12.559
So because now we have documentation that you understood, now you're at this level for a second offense.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.440
Was it their conduct office that heard the case?
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:20.240
I couldn't tell the the vice president was the one that rejected their appeal.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.799
Did they think that this was pretty minor?
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.279
And so they we gave them a warning.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.639
That feel it honestly, that feels appropriate to me.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.559
Yeah, it was indoors.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:31.840
But now look where we are.
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:39.120
But the sanction to me just feels like the educational and quotation mark goal is just obedience.
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:45.200
So what if if you if this was your sanction to hand out, what would it look like?
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:46.720
Uh it might have been the same.
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:48.000
Give them a warning.
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.559
I do talk to students about like, have you thought about what risks you're willing to take?
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.200
And do you feel well informed of what the risk really is?
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.240
I'll try to be transparent with you about it.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:05.759
There's the risk, like maybe you end up on probation next time and now you're not in good standing.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.000
Or in Florida, are you risking getting arrested?
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:11.200
Yeah, who knows?
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.519
And I don't want you to get arrested.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:24.160
And so I just want to make sure maybe you do want to get arrested because then you'll get on the news and then you have a platform, and then more people learn about this.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:30.960
One of my colleagues tells students, like, you know, Martin Luther King, some of his best writing happened from a jail cell.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.440
And maybe that's what you want, but I just want to make sure I did everything I could to inform you.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.319
And in some ways, maybe that is what this is.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:41.759
It could be.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:50.400
They leaked their uh outcome letters to the press, but I have not seen a published full outcome letter to see what the tone of it was.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:58.559
I think my sanction would be that I would have them plan a protest that does work in the confines of the existing system.
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.079
Then I'd probably get my pink slip the next day.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.640
I would love for campuses to create protest mentors.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:16.480
I don't know where that would live, but if you catch went like, oh, I heard students are gonna protest on Thursday, like, okay, well, hi, I'm your protest mentor.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.119
Here's your protest binder.
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.759
Here's here what the policies are, but also what are you trying to accomplish?
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:24.400
Yeah.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.799
Because I'm not always sure with students.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.559
In this case, it's pretty clear what what they're hoping to promote.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:42.160
And it did say, and I don't know what this really means, that they had tried to meet with the president to express their concerns before the protest was planned, and they hadn't gotten a response.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:50.799
So that could have been like, we waited a whole day and no one got back to us, or was it we've tried consistently for a few weeks.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:51.359
Right.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:52.880
And nobody'll talk to us.
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:58.000
You know, it only takes a minute to respond to a message or voicemail, though.
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:08.640
I think uh our our hallmark where I work is if we get a an inquiry to the president's office that we're responding that day, if possible, within that morningslash afternoon.
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:13.920
Because for this very reason, I I think you might feel like, oh, well, we just learned about this.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.359
We need 48 hours.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:20.960
If somebody's been festering over something for weeks, that extra 48 hours can feel really long.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:22.559
This is going to be interesting.
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:31.839
There's uh an article within the article that that's linked where they they say there there are a lot of questions with this case about whether the policy is even legal.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:41.279
So I'm talking about like enforcing a policy, but they they're really gonna take a look at the legitimacy of the policies that that'll be interesting.
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:41.839
Yeah.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:54.079
And again, it's interesting to me that knowing the political affiliation of Florida and all the emphasis that was put on freedom of speech in the last election, that this is the outcome of that.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.839
It does not it doesn't make sense to me.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.279
I'd love to talk to folks.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.079
Is there anything you wish you had done differently?
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.319
Were there things at the time that you didn't want to do that you did?
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:09.119
I also wonder, are there restorative ways to go forward?
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.359
Like, is there a pathway for all of them?
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:12.559
For the students?
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:20.400
Well, for all of So I was saying, like, maybe the administration is under tremendous pressure.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.880
I imagine that's true of every higher education institution in Florida right now.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:27.680
Absolutely.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.440
And some more than others.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:29.759
Yeah.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:36.799
I mean, it's like every institution in New York versus Colombia and all the attention they have gotten for things.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.319
So there are probably things they wish they could tell the students.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.799
Like, we don't want ice here either, or I don't know about their leadership.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:55.119
I mean, some of these Florida universities are hiring presidents or board chairs that have nothing to do with higher education, and it's a totally political move.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.680
Yeah.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.599
I'm just reading the names of the conduct officers at FIU.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.480
They all sound delightful.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.920
I hope I hope they're being forced to issue these sanctions to students.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.319
You know, everybody's got to work someplace.
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.200
I imagine that this is possibly it it must be tough to work in.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:27.839
States maybe are challenged with freedom of speech, freedom of expression, states where you can't even say that you are doing diversity work or equity and inclusion work.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:34.720
I I think it's a troubling time for higher education in many places, but particularly in places like this.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:41.200
Yeah, people are having to make decisions about whether to move their whole families to get out of certain states.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.640
I was gonna say I uh you know, I work at a community college.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.000
I always feel like I want education to be for everybody.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:22:06.160
And when you create scenarios like this, where you're inviting entities onto campus that stifle access, that jeopardize student momentum in any way, whether it's you know the threat of being removed or just the chilling effect, it just doesn't feel like what higher education's intended for.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.519
It makes it feel like it's only for certain types of people.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.039
It does not sit well with me.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:16.480
I genuinely I can feel compassion for just about everyone that's involved in this.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:27.519
I I want to ask the folks on the ground who made the decision like, did you have any idea this was going to be like a leaning headline on an issue of the chronicle?
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:38.000
Or was this just kind of a small case issue a warning, make a couple videos, no biggie, and now now you're in a lost precedent setting.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:38.480
Yeah.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:38.960
Yeah.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:40.880
Any other thoughts on this?
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.759
No, but I I'm gonna be watching it closely.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:54.319
I think it's as you said, it is very timely, obviously, and what what happens in this case is gonna set a precedent for other cases moving forward.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:12.480
I wonder is I let's leave on some thoughts like are are there things we could take back to our own campuses right now, like conversations or for a listener right now who might not think this relates to them or it relates a lot and they just are feeling powerless.
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:23.839
You know, I I do think it's important to periodically look at your freedom of speech, freedom of expression policies and procedures and use cases like this to test them.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.000
If this happened at our college or university, would the outcome make sense?
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:41.599
And I think you also have to be in the context of this discussion very viewpoint non-neutral but I think you do have to look at it from both angles and say if this was protesting something that I agree with, do I feel the same way about it?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.759
Do I apply the rules in the same way?
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.039
Uh if the answer is no then that's a problem as well.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.400
That's a really good ethical question.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:03.759
If the courts find that the code is is okay the students chose to protest indoors they got their warning they got a pretty easy to accomplish sanction.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:11.839
They weren't put on probation they received the lowest possible sanction at face value maybe this was an appropriate outcome.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:18.640
I wonder what would happen if there was trust if people could just trust each other in conversations.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.000
I was think talking about Columbia or maybe Harvard money.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:34.720
Those schools are also laying people off like they've had some sweeping layoffs at the schools where I like I think of them as having more money than God to be able to stand up to things they don't believe.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:25:11.119
But there are a lot of campuses that feel very vulnerable and I could have compassion for a place that is like students please please do not bring more attention to us because we don't have that kind of money and because on the other end our stu are colleges that are shutting down like Hampshire College closed its doors and that was heartbreaking and we don't want to be one of those schools I don't want you to not have an FIU but you can only have that conversation if there is mutual trust.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:32.559
Yeah and we have too many systems right now where I don't know that you you could trust students to take that information and say I gotcha we'll find some different ways but also could you say like here are some ways I could support you in learning how to be activists for social change that we just so desperately need in this country.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:40.880
Also would students trust that you know you weren't just trying to hush them up and guilt them which is I think where my mind would go unfortunately.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:41.839
Right.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.440
Yeah right it has to has to be genuine.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:45.839
Yeah.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:55.519
But maybe you also have to show and here are some things that we are doing behind the scenes to have an impact that you might not even realize.
00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:04.480
I'm always I mean my my search for recognizing good intent is huge and and that can that can be misplaced.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:10.640
Like I because I just I don't know these folks but that's where I see using restorative processes.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:40.640
Like could there be a place where everyone could just be open and not like how many decisions are made because people are afraid of lawsuits well now the lawsuit has been initiated everyone's gonna be told don't say a word don't talk to anyone no definitely don't talk to the other side it's gonna play out in court and I don't know when like wouldn't it be cool if courts could throw stuff back and just say you all need to have a heart to heart conversation.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:49.200
That sounds like the makings of a 1980s sitcom about just go talk it out.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.039
Come back and let me know how you meet out.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:56.480
Yeah but we're gonna provide a facilitator to help make it a productive conversation.
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:09.200
So that's the work I I want to be doing I work closely with our local restorative processes center who I've seen do miraculous work with people who never thought they could come together.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.200
And it is a better model no doubt.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:29.839
I mean if you go to court it's designed for somebody to win and somebody to lose and I I think I don't know a lot about the work that you do but it sounds like it's designed for everybody to come out feeling like they were respected and heard and that possibly everybody got something out of the process uh that nobody won and nobody lost.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:40.160
Well I can't wait to see what happens in the courts I I hope that it gets heard because I'd love to hear what the arguments are and I think there's a lot.
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.240
Good staff meeting discussion too.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.559
Well thanks for indulging me and and bringing this conversation to us.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:28:08.319
And I I loved your fire at the beginning of this how can I ask how are you feeling right now what's your energy I think baseline hot about the fact that ICE would be on a college campus, but I think us talking about it, I mean I do see some of the other things at play and you know to your point we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:15.759
So I'm gonna trust that those folks are there supporting their students as best they can and that there are other bigger forces at play.
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:21.839
You just made me think you know I wish I had Googled some maybe if there's a campus newspaper or something.
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.440
I don't know what their policing culture is on that campus.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:47.119
Like I've worked places where they if they had said uh we're gonna deputize your officers and make them ICE officers I might say fine go ahead because I know those officers this is I'd rather have them than have the people I see in videos in Minneapolis showing up on my campus.
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:50.559
But I also think it could be the opposite.
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.160
So I did just Google uh they do have a school newspaper.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:08.079
It's called the Panther Now and Panther Now and the Roar the two recent articles one is lawsuit challenges FIU's protest discipline and the other one is political polarization for students on campus from July.
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:08.640
Interesting.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:20.160
Yeah I'd like to do some snooping around in the editorials and and just see are there officers folks that students trust as like public safety that they care about their safety.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.720
I think we should do a road trip to FIU.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.559
I'm just throwing it out there we can save it for like February when it's cold.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:33.920
I'm gonna go to Florida to see Sean Cassidy and call cert maybe we can make a little side trip.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:35.039
To FIU?
00:29:35.279 --> 00:30:18.960
I have an extra ticket to map it out see how far it is do an on campus uh remote episode we might get carded off it might not beat their uh we might get carded off for recording this episode don't forget to put the uh the trigger warning for swearings on the uh the outside of the the box for this one I think it on on YouTube at least it asks is there adult content and I I'm never quite sure what that means like taxes I don't know well since we're being a little randy today I used I finally asked my doctor when I was younger she would ask are you sexually active and when I was young I thought it meant are you a virgin or are you not a virgin?
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:24.000
Yeah and and then later in my life I'm like what does that mean?
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:39.200
Oh it sounds like a a golden girls joke punchline I don't know yeah all right this is gonna be an editing nightmare just leave it all in there.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:52.160
Well I'm glad we talked about it and I hope this was helpful to folks who have listened and if anyone's brave enough we'd love hearing ideas about this case and what your campus might be facing for the fall.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:03.519
Alright Kurt I'll see you next time good to see you Ms.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:15.279
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com You can contact Ms.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.279
Behavior at Ms BehaviorCollege at gmail dot com.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.440
That's MSBaviorcollege at gmail dot com
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:01.199
I'm gonna swear a lot today.
00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:02.879
Wow, I see.
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:08.720
Maybe it will give a little uh display trigger warning at the beginning of this one.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:13.439
Mature content, language, uh it may breach into violence.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:14.800
I have a pen over here.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:15.359
I don't know.
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.359
So they made a crappy slash shitty decision.
00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:29.359
Welcome to the Ms.
00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:30.719
Behavior Podcast.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:32.000
My name is Colette.
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:33.200
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:37.200
We're here to talk about all things college student conduct.
00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:39.039
And we welcome you.
00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:47.359
We are today going to do some exploration of another timely issue that's going on that we think could affect all of us.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:01:01.200
And that is a lawsuit that seven students at Florida International University have lodged against the university related to a conduct case about freedom of expression.
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.920
Are you familiar with this case, Kurt?
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:04.879
I am.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:13.200
I I read up on it a little bit earlier in the week, and I was peeking at it again today, and it's so interesting.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:16.959
I think there are a couple of intersecting issues here for me.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:39.280
One is that this is taking place in Florida, and I think there has been a concerted effort for the past few years to stifle higher education in Florida, but also there is a conservative stronghold that seems to really value uh First Amendment rights, and this seems like it is doing the opposite.
00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:44.640
It is appears to be squashing uh the First Amendment rights of these students.
00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.040
Make it make sense, is where I'm going with this.
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:54.560
The article that I think Kurt and I both read was Students Punished for Silent Protest, Sue Florida International You.
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.560
This was in the Chronicle of Higher Education on August 12th.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:21.599
In a nutshell, there were seven students who attended a program with I think A-Rod, the baseball player, and they were protesting the fact that their university seems to have signed on to a partnership with ICE, where their campus law enforcement is going to become ICE agents.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:26.319
So the students wore t-shirts that said ICE off FIU.
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:33.759
And at the beginning of the program, they all stood up in the front row of the auditorium.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.599
They turned around and showed their t-shirts silently.
00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.759
It was said that they did this for a few minutes, which I'm not sure.
00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.360
A few minutes can seem like a really long time.
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:50.400
If we sat here for three minutes, it would probably feel like a really long silence.
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:52.479
Um, but they were not asked to leave.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:59.439
They kind of they did their thing and then they quietly walked away and left, and the program continued.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199
They were held accountable by some student conduct process.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:24.879
I had some questions about how it was adjudicated, and they all ended up with reprimand warnings and a sanction that they have to each do a two-minute video reflecting on what is called code 110 at FIU, which is their expression code, to demonstrate that they have an understanding of the code.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:26.400
Didn't I get that right?
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.639
That sounds exactly right to me.
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:38.719
It does not, however, answer any of my what the fuck questions about this situation because, first of all, like I think they refer to them as expressive activities.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.000
If they said protest activities, that would make more sense to me.
00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:43.520
But expressive activities.
00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:48.479
So what I hear is that this school potentially made some shitty decisions.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.840
I'm gonna swear a lot today.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:51.439
Wow, I see.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:57.199
Maybe we'll give a little uh display or trigger warning at the beginning of this one.
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.919
Mature content, language, uh, it may breach into violence.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.280
I have a pen over here.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:04.159
I don't know.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:12.080
Um, so they made a crappy slash shitty decision to turn their police force into ICE agents.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:19.839
And these students, these brave students, decided to exercise their freedom of expression or freedom of speech.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.279
And ooh, they stood up in front of a room.
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:25.439
The calamity that must have created.
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:26.240
Good for them.
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.800
Somebody should be standing up to this bullshit.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:34.079
They left of their own fruition, they didn't need to be pulled out in handcuffs.
00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.319
Sounds like they just walked out peacefully.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:42.160
They didn't disrupt the program except to stand up, and now they have to make a bullshit two-minute video.
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:55.360
I hope every one of those fucking students wears that t-shirt in the video and just stands there for two minutes to show that they understand exactly what that policy is about, because that policy is intended to create a chilling environment on a college campus.
00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:57.360
And that is not what higher education's about.
00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:06.079
If you run a legitimate higher education institution, the whole premise is that it's an opportunity for people to learn from each other and debate.
00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:10.000
And to me, this is the core of what that can look like.
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:18.000
If you disagree with something, there are peaceful ways to engage in disagreement and start a conversation.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:19.920
And this is an excellent example.
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.000
So this pisses me off.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.560
I'm fascinated by this right now.
00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:34.160
If you are new to our podcast or you haven't picked up on it, Kurt and I frequently say that he sort of represents the rule following mindset.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:41.680
And I tend to come from things at the rule scrutinizing perspective, but we might be switching roles here.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:43.279
Oh no, are we switching?
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:52.079
I I just have lots of questions, which could lead me to team Kurt pretty easily.
00:05:52.399 --> 00:06:02.079
First, I wanted to know, I uh I should have known this, but I didn't know if Florida International was a public institution or a private institution.
00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.879
You work for a a public institution, and I work for a private, so we can make more rules.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:17.439
Like if we were at some schools, you're you're not allowed to dance, you're not allowed to hold hands, things that might be seen as constitutional rights.
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.879
But uh it is FIU is public.
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:38.959
And you're right that this is a climate that we're supposed to be living in where freedom of expression is supposed to be one of the big tenets of our current federal administration, and Florida in particular feels like someone that should be upholding student rights of expression.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:50.399
But I guess to me, this is we're only going to value expression that aligns with our political ideologies or our belief systems and not anything that challenges that.
00:06:50.720 --> 00:07:04.800
So I did look up their student code for disruptive activity, which is not part of code 110, but just to kind of get a sense of what their philosophy was about what's considered disruptive.
00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:25.120
But the the words they use very carefully are um behavior that substantially and materially disrupts, disturbs, impairs, interferes with or obstructs the orderly conduct processes and functions of the classroom, surrounding areas.
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:36.319
Then they have a very specific code about expression, but the uh it seemed from their disruption code that you really have to be pretty disruptive.
00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:50.000
And like material, like did their protest interfere with Arod's interview there, which I would tend to think the program went on, it was a good program.
00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.519
People didn't leave the auditorium because they were so afraid or so disrupted.
00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:07.199
I and I don't know that they were charged with disruptive behavior, but the places where you're allowed to dis express yourself, it looks like on their campus are exclusively outdoors.
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:09.759
And this was an indoor event.
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.959
But did you notice in their expression code?
00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.360
I thought just thought this was very interesting.
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:28.560
No person shall wear a mask, personal disguise, hood, or any item to conceal their identity with the intent to intimidate any person or group.
00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.799
So I'm just curious, is that not what ICE does 24-7?
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.639
As a job, which is very intimidating.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:50.879
And if I were at a student at a place called Florida International, they they recruit and they take pride in the fact that they have such diversity on their campus.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:57.360
I just question like, what are the spoken values and what are the unspoken values of their campus?
00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:08.480
You know, I think if you want to talk about disruptive activity on campus, introducing a polarizing entity like ice on a college campus is 100% disruptive.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:15.279
It is going to create for some people a fearful environment where they're not going to learn effectively.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.519
Uh, they might not even come to campus anymore.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:22.799
Again, I it just feels counter to the purpose of higher education to me.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:31.360
I I looked up the mission statements and the purpose statements about their student conduct area and the institution.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.440
And they talk a lot about learning and the joy of learning.
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.600
They describe their conduct office as educational.
00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:46.000
And I especially I'm well, I'll explain why this means something to me, but the word developmental.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.240
They say that it is developmental.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:54.720
And I heard a podcast recently, it was Student Affairs Now with Heather Shea.
00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:07.759
And dang, they interviewed Patricia King, who's one of the like icons of student development, who has never slowed down in refining what student development needs.
00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:17.360
And she's like, everybody says they're developmental, but what developmental really means is that you learn to see the world more complexly.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:25.279
And so I look at that sanction of the two-minute video, and I'm like, is that helping students think more critically?
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:31.360
Because I'm pretty sure if they are expressing critical thought, they're gonna have to redo their videos.
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:36.080
And I do understand colleges and universities having designated places.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:41.600
You can't tell people they can't do something, but you can't dictate the time, place, and manner in which they do it.
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:42.879
Fully agree with that.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.399
And I can see the flip side of that.
00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:49.279
But when I think about that, I think about what I would consider more traditional protest activity.
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.080
You're out there with a megaphone, you are chanting.
00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.440
Like, is silent protest really in that same category?
00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:03.519
I think the litmus test at schools I've worked at is is it is what's happening disrupting the academic operation of the college?
00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:09.919
Unless A Rod is now a professor at FIU, um could happen.
00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.919
Uh I don't know.
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:18.320
This this I don't know if this is a classroom situation or if it was part of uh an extracurricular piece.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:18.879
Yeah.
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.039
So now I'm gonna jump over to what might the FIU administration be dealing with?
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.840
Why would they go into cahoots with ICE?
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.879
They might be under a lot of pressure.
00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:31.759
I'm not sure.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:38.480
Maybe the name Florida International draws a different scrutiny from the government.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:47.440
And FIU might not have Harvard money or you know, Columbia money where they can afford to sue the government for pressure.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.279
I'm trying to see the good intent.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.440
Yeah, I haven't heard of other campuses doing this.
00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:02.240
Is this like, are they one of hundreds of campuses that now are collaborating with ICE or were they under a special microscope?
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:09.600
I mean, I don't know if I'm an international student and I hear that there's going to be an ICE presence on campus 24-7.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.039
Am I going to even bother applying to a school like that?
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:26.159
Because it does not seem as an outsider that there's any rhyme or reason when ICE detains people, whether they're citizens or whether they are people from other countries, whether they're here legally or illegally.
00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.679
Uh, it doesn't seem like there's an element of discernment in that.
00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:36.080
So I would be hard pressed if I was even coming from Canada, am I going to go to FIU after hearing that?
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.080
And what does that do to their enrollment?
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:38.480
Right.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:48.240
You're getting squeezed from the demographic cliff where we're all fighting, we're all scrapping it out with each other trying to attract students.
00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:56.080
They do have a significant number of students who are supposed to have DACA protection, but I don't know what that means anymore.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:05.360
And I did see that the ACLU picked up their case, which is uh the the students' case, which is a good outcome for the students.
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:06.480
I hope they win.
00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:07.200
Honestly, yeah.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.679
FIRE is also supporting them.
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:10.720
It'll be interesting.
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:16.000
There they all have the same lawyer, so we'll probably see one outcome for all.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:21.919
I'd really like to see their sanction says I read the lawsuit that was submitted.
00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:42.240
So it says the reflection sanction is to create a two-minute video explaining your understanding of FIU Regulation 110, what is expected under FIU Regulation 110 related to indoor and outdoor areas, and how you will apply what you have learned moving forward.
00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.279
The video must be your original work.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:50.799
The video must be thoughtful and substantive in its response to the prompt.
00:13:51.200 --> 00:14:01.759
Office of Student Conduct and Academic Integrity reserves the right to ask you to resubmit your work if it does not adhere to the outlined instructions.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:08.000
So their website says that they do have an educational philosophy in their system.
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:15.759
And if a student is critical and says in their video, I don't know, like here is what the code says, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:16.799
Read the code.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:22.080
My understanding is you're only supposed to protest outside and not inside.
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:27.279
And in terms of applying what I learned, I already knew that.
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:33.679
And I made a decision to go in and do something that I thought was fairly not disruptive.
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.679
So I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm really going to think about it.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:46.720
So, as a conduct officer, what are you looking for if you know you put yourself in the shoes of the conduct officer at this school?
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.919
What are you looking for?
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.960
I almost never give these reflection assignments.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:02.559
I don't give papers, or I know schools that are like, oh no, you they can do a video, they could do an art project, but it's still it feels like you're asking them, like, tell me what I want to hear.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:02.960
Yeah.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:12.559
And I I watched some videos recently where I described it, it looked like a hostage video where the student is like, I will never break the rule again.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:18.639
And I know that the rules are very important to maintain a civil environment.
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:28.960
And it it's they probably got like an A plus, and it felt fake and it didn't feel like the student was thinking more complexly.
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:36.559
If anything, we're trying to narrow students to think this is the rule, and I will never protest indoors again.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:44.240
But maybe for their conduct, folks, they're like, I just want to know that they know what the rule is and that they understand the risk.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:50.480
Now their version, their reprimand in their sanction list, it looks to be the lowest thing that you can apply.
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.240
So for them, it's a warning.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.039
It means they are all still in good standing.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:01.759
The video reads to me like it is supporting documentation for a subsequent violation.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.480
That if they do it again, they say, Well, you made this video and you said you understood.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:12.559
So because now we have documentation that you understood, now you're at this level for a second offense.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.440
Was it their conduct office that heard the case?
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:20.240
I couldn't tell the the vice president was the one that rejected their appeal.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.799
Did they think that this was pretty minor?
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.279
And so they we gave them a warning.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.639
That feel it honestly, that feels appropriate to me.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.559
Yeah, it was indoors.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:31.840
But now look where we are.
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:39.120
But the sanction to me just feels like the educational and quotation mark goal is just obedience.
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:45.200
So what if if you if this was your sanction to hand out, what would it look like?
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:46.720
Uh it might have been the same.
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:48.000
Give them a warning.
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.559
I do talk to students about like, have you thought about what risks you're willing to take?
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.200
And do you feel well informed of what the risk really is?
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.240
I'll try to be transparent with you about it.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:05.759
There's the risk, like maybe you end up on probation next time and now you're not in good standing.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.000
Or in Florida, are you risking getting arrested?
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:11.200
Yeah, who knows?
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.519
And I don't want you to get arrested.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:24.160
And so I just want to make sure maybe you do want to get arrested because then you'll get on the news and then you have a platform, and then more people learn about this.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:30.960
One of my colleagues tells students, like, you know, Martin Luther King, some of his best writing happened from a jail cell.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.440
And maybe that's what you want, but I just want to make sure I did everything I could to inform you.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.319
And in some ways, maybe that is what this is.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:41.759
It could be.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:50.400
They leaked their uh outcome letters to the press, but I have not seen a published full outcome letter to see what the tone of it was.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:58.559
I think my sanction would be that I would have them plan a protest that does work in the confines of the existing system.
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.079
Then I'd probably get my pink slip the next day.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.640
I would love for campuses to create protest mentors.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:16.480
I don't know where that would live, but if you catch went like, oh, I heard students are gonna protest on Thursday, like, okay, well, hi, I'm your protest mentor.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.119
Here's your protest binder.
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.759
Here's here what the policies are, but also what are you trying to accomplish?
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:24.400
Yeah.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.799
Because I'm not always sure with students.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.559
In this case, it's pretty clear what what they're hoping to promote.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:42.160
And it did say, and I don't know what this really means, that they had tried to meet with the president to express their concerns before the protest was planned, and they hadn't gotten a response.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:50.799
So that could have been like, we waited a whole day and no one got back to us, or was it we've tried consistently for a few weeks.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:51.359
Right.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:52.880
And nobody'll talk to us.
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:58.000
You know, it only takes a minute to respond to a message or voicemail, though.
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:08.640
I think uh our our hallmark where I work is if we get a an inquiry to the president's office that we're responding that day, if possible, within that morningslash afternoon.
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:13.920
Because for this very reason, I I think you might feel like, oh, well, we just learned about this.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.359
We need 48 hours.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:20.960
If somebody's been festering over something for weeks, that extra 48 hours can feel really long.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:22.559
This is going to be interesting.
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:31.839
There's uh an article within the article that that's linked where they they say there there are a lot of questions with this case about whether the policy is even legal.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:41.279
So I'm talking about like enforcing a policy, but they they're really gonna take a look at the legitimacy of the policies that that'll be interesting.
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:41.839
Yeah.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:54.079
And again, it's interesting to me that knowing the political affiliation of Florida and all the emphasis that was put on freedom of speech in the last election, that this is the outcome of that.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.839
It does not it doesn't make sense to me.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.279
I'd love to talk to folks.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.079
Is there anything you wish you had done differently?
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.319
Were there things at the time that you didn't want to do that you did?
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:09.119
I also wonder, are there restorative ways to go forward?
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.359
Like, is there a pathway for all of them?
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:12.559
For the students?
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:20.400
Well, for all of So I was saying, like, maybe the administration is under tremendous pressure.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.880
I imagine that's true of every higher education institution in Florida right now.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:27.680
Absolutely.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.440
And some more than others.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:29.759
Yeah.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:36.799
I mean, it's like every institution in New York versus Colombia and all the attention they have gotten for things.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.319
So there are probably things they wish they could tell the students.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.799
Like, we don't want ice here either, or I don't know about their leadership.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:55.119
I mean, some of these Florida universities are hiring presidents or board chairs that have nothing to do with higher education, and it's a totally political move.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.680
Yeah.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.599
I'm just reading the names of the conduct officers at FIU.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.480
They all sound delightful.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.920
I hope I hope they're being forced to issue these sanctions to students.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.319
You know, everybody's got to work someplace.
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.200
I imagine that this is possibly it it must be tough to work in.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:27.839
States maybe are challenged with freedom of speech, freedom of expression, states where you can't even say that you are doing diversity work or equity and inclusion work.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:34.720
I I think it's a troubling time for higher education in many places, but particularly in places like this.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:41.200
Yeah, people are having to make decisions about whether to move their whole families to get out of certain states.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.640
I was gonna say I uh you know, I work at a community college.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.000
I always feel like I want education to be for everybody.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:22:06.160
And when you create scenarios like this, where you're inviting entities onto campus that stifle access, that jeopardize student momentum in any way, whether it's you know the threat of being removed or just the chilling effect, it just doesn't feel like what higher education's intended for.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.519
It makes it feel like it's only for certain types of people.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.039
It does not sit well with me.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:16.480
I genuinely I can feel compassion for just about everyone that's involved in this.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:27.519
I I want to ask the folks on the ground who made the decision like, did you have any idea this was going to be like a leaning headline on an issue of the chronicle?
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:38.000
Or was this just kind of a small case issue a warning, make a couple videos, no biggie, and now now you're in a lost precedent setting.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:38.480
Yeah.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:38.960
Yeah.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:40.880
Any other thoughts on this?
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.759
No, but I I'm gonna be watching it closely.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:54.319
I think it's as you said, it is very timely, obviously, and what what happens in this case is gonna set a precedent for other cases moving forward.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:12.480
I wonder is I let's leave on some thoughts like are are there things we could take back to our own campuses right now, like conversations or for a listener right now who might not think this relates to them or it relates a lot and they just are feeling powerless.
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:23.839
You know, I I do think it's important to periodically look at your freedom of speech, freedom of expression policies and procedures and use cases like this to test them.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.000
If this happened at our college or university, would the outcome make sense?
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:41.599
And I think you also have to be in the context of this discussion very viewpoint non-neutral but I think you do have to look at it from both angles and say if this was protesting something that I agree with, do I feel the same way about it?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.759
Do I apply the rules in the same way?
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.039
Uh if the answer is no then that's a problem as well.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.400
That's a really good ethical question.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:03.759
If the courts find that the code is is okay the students chose to protest indoors they got their warning they got a pretty easy to accomplish sanction.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:11.839
They weren't put on probation they received the lowest possible sanction at face value maybe this was an appropriate outcome.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:18.640
I wonder what would happen if there was trust if people could just trust each other in conversations.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.000
I was think talking about Columbia or maybe Harvard money.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:34.720
Those schools are also laying people off like they've had some sweeping layoffs at the schools where I like I think of them as having more money than God to be able to stand up to things they don't believe.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:25:11.119
But there are a lot of campuses that feel very vulnerable and I could have compassion for a place that is like students please please do not bring more attention to us because we don't have that kind of money and because on the other end our stu are colleges that are shutting down like Hampshire College closed its doors and that was heartbreaking and we don't want to be one of those schools I don't want you to not have an FIU but you can only have that conversation if there is mutual trust.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:32.559
Yeah and we have too many systems right now where I don't know that you you could trust students to take that information and say I gotcha we'll find some different ways but also could you say like here are some ways I could support you in learning how to be activists for social change that we just so desperately need in this country.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:40.880
Also would students trust that you know you weren't just trying to hush them up and guilt them which is I think where my mind would go unfortunately.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:41.839
Right.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.440
Yeah right it has to has to be genuine.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:45.839
Yeah.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:55.519
But maybe you also have to show and here are some things that we are doing behind the scenes to have an impact that you might not even realize.
00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:04.480
I'm always I mean my my search for recognizing good intent is huge and and that can that can be misplaced.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:10.640
Like I because I just I don't know these folks but that's where I see using restorative processes.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:40.640
Like could there be a place where everyone could just be open and not like how many decisions are made because people are afraid of lawsuits well now the lawsuit has been initiated everyone's gonna be told don't say a word don't talk to anyone no definitely don't talk to the other side it's gonna play out in court and I don't know when like wouldn't it be cool if courts could throw stuff back and just say you all need to have a heart to heart conversation.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:49.200
That sounds like the makings of a 1980s sitcom about just go talk it out.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.039
Come back and let me know how you meet out.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:56.480
Yeah but we're gonna provide a facilitator to help make it a productive conversation.
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:09.200
So that's the work I I want to be doing I work closely with our local restorative processes center who I've seen do miraculous work with people who never thought they could come together.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.200
And it is a better model no doubt.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:29.839
I mean if you go to court it's designed for somebody to win and somebody to lose and I I think I don't know a lot about the work that you do but it sounds like it's designed for everybody to come out feeling like they were respected and heard and that possibly everybody got something out of the process uh that nobody won and nobody lost.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:40.160
Well I can't wait to see what happens in the courts I I hope that it gets heard because I'd love to hear what the arguments are and I think there's a lot.
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.240
Good staff meeting discussion too.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.559
Well thanks for indulging me and and bringing this conversation to us.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:28:08.319
And I I loved your fire at the beginning of this how can I ask how are you feeling right now what's your energy I think baseline hot about the fact that ICE would be on a college campus, but I think us talking about it, I mean I do see some of the other things at play and you know to your point we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:15.759
So I'm gonna trust that those folks are there supporting their students as best they can and that there are other bigger forces at play.
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:21.839
You just made me think you know I wish I had Googled some maybe if there's a campus newspaper or something.
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.440
I don't know what their policing culture is on that campus.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:47.119
Like I've worked places where they if they had said uh we're gonna deputize your officers and make them ICE officers I might say fine go ahead because I know those officers this is I'd rather have them than have the people I see in videos in Minneapolis showing up on my campus.
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:50.559
But I also think it could be the opposite.
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.160
So I did just Google uh they do have a school newspaper.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:08.079
It's called the Panther Now and Panther Now and the Roar the two recent articles one is lawsuit challenges FIU's protest discipline and the other one is political polarization for students on campus from July.
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:08.640
Interesting.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:20.160
Yeah I'd like to do some snooping around in the editorials and and just see are there officers folks that students trust as like public safety that they care about their safety.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.720
I think we should do a road trip to FIU.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.559
I'm just throwing it out there we can save it for like February when it's cold.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:33.920
I'm gonna go to Florida to see Sean Cassidy and call cert maybe we can make a little side trip.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:35.039
To FIU?
00:29:35.279 --> 00:30:18.960
I have an extra ticket to map it out see how far it is do an on campus uh remote episode we might get carded off it might not beat their uh we might get carded off for recording this episode don't forget to put the uh the trigger warning for swearings on the uh the outside of the the box for this one I think it on on YouTube at least it asks is there adult content and I I'm never quite sure what that means like taxes I don't know well since we're being a little randy today I used I finally asked my doctor when I was younger she would ask are you sexually active and when I was young I thought it meant are you a virgin or are you not a virgin?
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:24.000
Yeah and and then later in my life I'm like what does that mean?
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:39.200
Oh it sounds like a a golden girls joke punchline I don't know yeah all right this is gonna be an editing nightmare just leave it all in there.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:52.160
Well I'm glad we talked about it and I hope this was helpful to folks who have listened and if anyone's brave enough we'd love hearing ideas about this case and what your campus might be facing for the fall.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:03.519
Alright Kurt I'll see you next time good to see you Ms.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:15.279
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com You can contact Ms.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.279
Behavior at Ms BehaviorCollege at gmail dot com.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.440
That's MSBaviorcollege at gmail dot com
