Ep #12: James Storer (Monzo): Fake Banks, Real Learning, and Being Monzo's Biggest Token Burner

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Jonny: Hi everyone.
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Welcome to another episode of the Near
Future podcast with Tom and Jonny.
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Today we have a guest, a brilliant
guest, a guest I know very
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well, a guy called James Storer,
who, uh, is currently at Monzo.
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We probably a lot of the time, uh, this
episode we're gonna talk about, you're up
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to at Monzo with design and AI, James bi.
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I'll give you a, a quick, uh,
bio because James and I worked
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together back in the day at
Deliveroo, um, sort of 20 15, 20 16.
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James then went on to be head of design
at Freetrade, uh, which some people may
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be using, and then went onto leadership
at Habito and then Klarna, and then
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started his own, uh, design agency
Twist, and then became a co-founder of
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a startup at Jitty, uh, which is, um,
a house buying and, uh, room scrolling,
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I believe was one of your, one of your,
your words that you invented there.
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Um, James and then has finally ended up at
Monzo where, and correct me if I'm wrong,
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James, but you are the, uh, leading token
burner in the design team, uh, is in the,
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in the whole organisation, though shortly,
not in the design team, um, at Monzo,
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which is an absurd claim, um, for a, a,
a company that has thousands of employees
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and really the engineers should be winning
that, but somehow you've snuck in and
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I think we're gonna, we're gonna dig
into that, uh, during this conversation.
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Uh, but great to have you here, James.
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Uh, I would love to, uh, start the, the
questioning, um, the interrogation, uh,
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by asking you, uh, by asking you a little
bit about, um, your day-to-day at Monzo,
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like what you're up to right now, um, how
you think about your work and, um, and,
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and also I suppose I'd love to, for you
to touch on your decision to go back from
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leadership and like, you know, running
design teams and, and even building whole
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companies back into an IC role at Monzo.
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I think that's really interesting as well.
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So I'll leave it.
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I'll hand over to you, James.
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James: Thanks Jonny.
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Appreciate the intro.
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Um, yeah, it is actually the, yeah, the
whole whole org that I'm lead leading
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token, uh, burner, which is, I'm not
sure if that's a great, uh, title to
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have, but it certainly says something
about, as you asked, like, how am I
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spending my, my day to day, I guess.
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Um, but yeah, I, I, I think I
am in quite a unique position.
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I'm very, very fortunate position
actually because, so I lead design
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in our kind of, let's say, AI forward
and personalization collective, where,
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you know, you might start to see
some features coming about from in
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the next, uh, next 12 months or so.
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And I think what gives me a really great
remit there is because, a, we are very
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much thinking, uh, more forward about
Monzo and what the product's gonna
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look and feel like over, over time,
especially around personalization.
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Um, you know, you and I today probably
have a very similar looking app,
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and we want to make that way more
personalised for each, each individual.
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Um, so I get to kind of really think
more broadly and ahead of time.
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Equally, I'm not in any
particular dedicated squad.
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I'm leading across the collective, so
I don't have that kind of day to day,
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uh, you know, not that all designers are
like on demand to a squad, but that, you
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know, you are, you are still working with
the squad to hit certain goals, certain
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features that you're building towards.
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I don't necessarily have that
specifically I do at the minute.
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I'm covering, uh, uh, two sabbaticals
at once, which is not, not ideal, but,
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uh, I hope you and Alex, if you're
listening, you're having a lovely time.
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Jonny: Yeah.
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James: and yeah, I, I, so I
am actually getting into the
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weeds a little bit right now.
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She's also very nice.
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Um, but aside from that as well.
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also own quite a lot of our like
dis design discipline AI goals.
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So two things go hand in
hand really nicely for me.
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So one is obviously how am
I applying it in my work?
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How am I personally out what
we should use for what purpose?
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And then to the whole team is like,
okay, what have I found useful?
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How can we kind of disseminate
this through the whole design
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discipline and, and beyond really?
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Uh, and I'm not the only person doing
that, but it's just that obviously
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I'm, I'm kind of owning a lot of those
goals, so I'm trying to figure this
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out and as I said, in that kind of
great position of to really, uh, you
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know, do what you say, put your money
where your mouth is, if you will, I
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get to kind of do that day in, day out.
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Um, so I, I would say that I spend a
lot of my time playing around in Cursor
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in Claude Code, uh, whether that's
prototyping or figuring out we can use
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it to, you know, build data dashboards
really easily or interrogate insights or
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all of these things that I, I think, you
know, one time or another are all part
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of our, our roles as designers, but when
weren't necessarily quite successful,
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weren't, weren't so easy just to do.
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so it's a really great place to be.
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Well, what are time to be alive?
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Um, and I, and I actually think
that probably answers the, the
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third part of that question is
like, why, to go back into IC work.
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I think I've actually, I mean, you,
you probably know this, if you looked
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at my LinkedIn for, for a little while
this morning and maybe Tom's Claude
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skill didn't pick, pick up on this
one, but I've kind of flip flopped
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between management and IC work, uh,
like to the last 10 years or so.
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uh, predominantly then, you know,
you'll know this as well as I do,
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it was the only direction you had
to become a manager, a lead to be
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able to, to, to sort of progress.
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So I did that.
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Then I did the, the kind of classic I,
I'll I'll manage some people and then, you
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know, you realise that I'm, I'm actually,
uh, the best way of putting this?
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I, I'm a great leader.
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I think I'm a good lead by
doing, by showing how to, to,
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to sort of lead from the front.
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I'm not sure I'm the best manager.
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I've, uh, I've, I've tried to a few of
my, I mean, I've got a few reports now.
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I'll, I'll let them, uh, sort of
hang, hang me out to dry here.
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But I, I, I think I, I described
myself to, to one of them
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as a bit of a chaos agent.
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So I think, I think it's not always
the best thing, but I, um, I really
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love helping people progress, but I
really love doing, doing the do as well.
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And what's, what's worked
really well for me there.
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And as I've gone through these cycles
of leading a team and then being
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like, oh, I just wanna get involved.
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You sort of then have to go
back into an IC specific role.
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I think what's happened really nice there
over the last 10 years is that there's
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been these more hybrid roles come about.
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You have kind of, you know, senior leads
and all this kind of stuff now, um, and
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more hybrid, uh, sort of player coaches.
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So, so that's worked really well for me.
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And you do kind of gain a lot
of, uh, you know, a experience,
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b insight, understanding of
how to play the strategy game.
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You get all of that and when you can
package that up with a, you know, a 20
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year career of, of, of being a designer,
you can do some great design work as well.
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So I, I think that for me has been,
uh, the, the kind of pinnacle and
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be, but going from like a founder
position that that is, you know, people
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might see that slightly differently.
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I'm, you know, for anyone that's done
it, John, you'll know this for, for
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sure, you are, you are in the tools like
24 7 because there isn't anyone else.
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There is no team.
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You are it, you are the first
and last line of defence.
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So for three years, you know, I was the
only designer that's got some benefits.
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You get very, very into the tools.
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Uh, but the, the, but the side part
that made me want to go join in a
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more established team was peers,
having people to learn from, to
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continue to develop myself as well.
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And equally just, you know, having some
really, really great people to work with.
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Uh, again, I think Tom, you'll have
worked with some of, uh, the, the
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great folks over at Monzo that, you
know, what a fantastic team it is.
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Tom: Is a fantastic team and you're,
you're lucky to work with them.
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Um, love that story.
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The one thing about the career back and
forth that I was particularly curious
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to ask you around, and I'm curious with
this AI shaped role that you're doing
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at the moment, do you see that as, it
seems like this sort of sweet spot of,
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of bringing together your IC focus and
there's some people leadership and there's
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some direction setting across the company.
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I'm curious if you see that as like
a, what the time horizon is for that?
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Is that like a one year role that then you
switch back into IC or people management?
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Or do you think the future of this craft
is this hybrid together of, of, uh,
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disciplines through AI enabling that?
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James: A really great question.
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Uh, ho I don't know for sure.
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I'm not sure any of us can know where
the end state is right now, but I,
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I, I, I don't want to, uh, to lay too
heavily one way or the other, but I,
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I think that there's definitely, uh,
always gonna be a need for people that
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are very strategically minded, great
leaders, great managers, like people will
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always need that to be able to develop.
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And, but I do think like, just like ICs
are having to expand their skillset,
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their breadth, I think that's kind
of the same in terms of leadership.
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Like they can't just turn a blind eye
and not know what's happening in AI,
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the tools that we're using, you know,
but I, I, I spent enough time like
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out of Figma that going back into it
was hard at the time and they didn't
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even move that quickly at that point.
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But I think that now you can't
really take your foot off, so
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your eye off the ball really.
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So I think it's, I think it's,
they're always gonna exist.
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I'm not sure whether the, the, the hybrid
role will be there forever because I
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am, I think for me personally, as much
joy as I take from helping people,
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managing people, I'm probably better
at, at actually just doing the work.
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Um, felt like, uh, the current
collective that I'm in needed somebody
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closer to the actual problems.
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The work that was happening
at the time when we, we sort
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of started the collective.
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I think that made a lot of sense.
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I dunno, going forwards, once we actually
establish ourselves, start to ship some of
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this, this work, um, I'm not sure whether
that might then need somebody to be a
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little bit more sort of just day in, day
out in the actual, in those leadership
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meetings in the in Australia sessions.
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I, I try as much as humanly
possible to stay outta those.
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Um, but you, you can't, you can't, you
can't sort of do that all the time.
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So.
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Tom: Daily.
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interesting.
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Jonny: I, I suppose I've got another
follow up question, and this is
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from personal experience as well.
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As a founder, as you mentioned,
James, when you're a founder, you
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don't have the designer title,
but if you're the design founder,
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then you are the designer as well.
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So you,
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James: Yeah.
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Jonny: I think I found myself in a
situation where I was doing a lot of
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design work, but always struggling
to justify spending longer than I
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needed to on it because I was, as
I was CEO and, and also doing like
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fundraising at various points and I,
and product management for the most
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part, for, uh, for long periods of time.
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And so the PM bit of me would be like,
what is the smallest thing we can get out?
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And then the designer would be
like, but I wanna spend a bit longer
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to, to, to make it a bit better.
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And then the, the PM help would come back
on and be like, no, ship it, move on.
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Um, so I'd end up like, looking back, I
think the ways that I sort of tried to
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combat it was, you know, promising myself
that I'd go back and improve it over time.
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And I ended up designing way more in code.
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'cause it was just faster to get to
something that was high fidelity anyway.
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But I'm just interested, like, as you
left being you one of three founders,
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but like, you know, various things
on your plate and lots of competing
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priorities as a, as a founder of a
early stage startup, then going into a
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big team, you mentioned being out the
tools for a while is hard to catch up.
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Was that a moment where you had to
sort of recalibrate how long you
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could spend on craft or how, how you
would sort of reprioritize where,
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where to where to put your time?
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James: Yeah, I mean, I think like one, one
of the, one of the driving factors for me
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to, to sort of leave founder life was that
many hats and at points it's enjoyable,
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it's great, the energy's there, it's
fun, but it can also be an energy sort
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of snap it can take figure out of you.
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And so I think for me it was more
around like, yeah, being able to have
00:12:07.082 --> 00:12:11.672
that extra time to spend thinking
about something you want to, um, I
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just needed that mental energy to
have that, that ability to do that.
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And do me wrong.
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I think AI has been phenomenal for
being that thought partner, being
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able to like accelerate parts of
your work, like you said there, you
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know, have resonated a lot with me.
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I was predominantly like building
features by the end of Jitty.
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I, I wasn't really designing everything
first because one, we built a really
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great design system, so you had all
the Legos available and you know, you
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can't always be too precious in a,
in a startup where, you know, days
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and hours are, are, are your enemy,
not the, the weeks or months it might
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take to ship features in bigger orgs.
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So you sometimes you just
have to have to deliver.
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Um, and so that, that was definitely
thing I really wanted to gain from sort
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of like moving on from founder life was,
yeah, just having the headspace to go,
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my priority today or this week is to
literally think about this problem or go
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and build a, a prototype in this space.
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And,
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Jonny: Right.
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James: you know, it's happening right now
at the minute we we're doing a lot of, um,
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our cycle planning for the next half and
I get to go and kind of prototype a lot
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of those bets because that's become part
of our process now, which is fantastic.
00:13:22.262 --> 00:13:25.112
But it's, I mean, so for me it's, I
I sound giddy saying it like, it's
00:13:25.112 --> 00:13:29.252
like it's both great to get the time
and head space to go and think about
00:13:29.252 --> 00:13:32.882
these like, future problems we wanna
solve, but equally getting to, to play
00:13:32.882 --> 00:13:34.892
around is the better way of putting it.
00:13:34.892 --> 00:13:39.152
It's to play around building these things,
uh, not, and you know, the, this is kind
00:13:39.152 --> 00:13:43.652
of what we touched on last time, Tom, is
that not to the level of sort of fidelity
00:13:43.652 --> 00:13:47.402
or quality execution where I would be
shipping them, but to the point where we
00:13:47.402 --> 00:13:51.212
can share them round as artefacts, share
them round as like, uh, you know, sort
00:13:51.212 --> 00:13:54.782
of direction of travel, and prototype
them in enough to test with users.
00:13:54.782 --> 00:13:58.952
That's what's really, really created
some fantastic leverage for us, uh, at
00:13:58.952 --> 00:14:03.242
Monzo so far and, and given me this,
the giddy awkward smile that you see.
00:14:04.033 --> 00:14:06.793
Jonny: I know you James, and I know
how you work, or at least how you
00:14:06.793 --> 00:14:12.253
worked 10 years ago and uh, I can
only imagine how exciting it, you, you
00:14:12.253 --> 00:14:13.873
were in the growth team at Deliveroo
00:14:14.014 --> 00:14:14.374
James: Yes.
00:14:14.503 --> 00:14:17.563
Jonny: in the day, which is was
the team that moved the fastest
00:14:17.563 --> 00:14:19.843
and had the ideas and then just
like would throw them out there.
00:14:20.263 --> 00:14:22.093
I think you and I are quite
similar in that sense.
00:14:22.183 --> 00:14:26.803
Uh, just like to sort of build something
and just see, so to be able to have,
00:14:28.423 --> 00:14:33.793
uh, an organisation that operates where
as part of planning, not only do you
00:14:33.793 --> 00:14:37.183
get like maybe an engineering spike
into some sort of technical question,
00:14:37.213 --> 00:14:42.313
but you actually get to build like a
sort of user experience spike as well.
00:14:42.793 --> 00:14:45.463
Man, we would've loved that 10
years ago, I think to, to have
00:14:45.463 --> 00:14:46.843
had that opportunity to do that.
00:14:47.556 --> 00:14:50.211
James: yeah, I mean, I, I, I say it
quite often at the minute, but I,
00:14:50.211 --> 00:14:55.146
I, I feel like, uh, you know, I've,
I've been a, an average designer for
00:14:55.146 --> 00:14:59.106
the most of my career, and a lot of
the, what, the many things that I've
00:14:59.106 --> 00:15:00.666
done, I, I, some people don't know.
00:15:00.666 --> 00:15:03.906
I, I started as a, as a web
designer, as a web engineer back
00:15:03.906 --> 00:15:07.146
in the early two thousands and
sort of moved into this direction.
00:15:07.146 --> 00:15:10.866
But it's a lot of the skills that
I have acquired over this time, I
00:15:10.866 --> 00:15:14.171
feel like they've come to a head
where it's like, I do understand, uh,
00:15:14.176 --> 00:15:15.936
uh, a lot of the coding decisions.
00:15:16.326 --> 00:15:18.996
I mean, not to the amount of
coding languages that I now,
00:15:19.056 --> 00:15:22.686
you know, orchestrate, but I
understand, uh, some of it.
00:15:23.951 --> 00:15:26.346
And I think that's proven
really, really powerful.
00:15:26.346 --> 00:15:29.396
This, that tech, that technical
connection, the, the problem-solving
00:15:29.436 --> 00:15:32.436
perspective and the actual
like visual craft element.
00:15:32.586 --> 00:15:35.676
And then equally, I think you, you
once said this to me, Jonny, it stuck
00:15:35.676 --> 00:15:38.826
with me for a long time, is that, you
know, I, I, I used to call myself loud
00:15:38.826 --> 00:15:40.416
mouth and I thought it was a negative.
00:15:40.416 --> 00:15:43.356
And you said it's actually a, it is a
superpower, it's a communication skill.
00:15:44.196 --> 00:15:44.676
thanks for that.
00:15:44.946 --> 00:15:48.996
And, uh, and I think that that coupled
with these other things has become
00:15:48.996 --> 00:15:53.106
this way of like being able to be on
the forefront, forefront of, of AI
00:15:53.106 --> 00:15:56.466
and design and understanding how we
use it and helping others to kind of
00:15:56.466 --> 00:15:57.756
come along on that journey as well.
00:15:57.756 --> 00:16:03.876
So it's a, it's a, it's a weird collection
of skills, but seem, it seems to be
00:16:03.876 --> 00:16:05.171
working pretty well for me at the minute.
00:16:06.401 --> 00:16:06.761
Jonny: Yeah.
00:16:06.851 --> 00:16:09.401
And you, and I love that you've
managed to just sort of define
00:16:09.401 --> 00:16:14.981
yourself between the cracks of like
the, the traditional archetypes.
00:16:15.221 --> 00:16:20.921
Uh, you, I think you are the best example
so far that we've had on this podcast
00:16:20.921 --> 00:16:22.541
of someone who is doing exactly that.
00:16:22.541 --> 00:16:26.831
They're sort of dancing between these
definitions and actually carving something
00:16:26.831 --> 00:16:32.411
out for yourself that is, um, the best
reflection of what you want to do.
00:16:32.411 --> 00:16:36.251
So therefore, probably the best value you
could, you can offer to an organisation,
00:16:36.734 --> 00:16:37.154
James: Yeah.
00:16:37.571 --> 00:16:42.491
Jonny: which is great and probably not
possible five, 10 years ago for various
00:16:42.491 --> 00:16:45.551
other reasons, like, you know, coding
models didn't exist and, and whatnot.
00:16:45.551 --> 00:16:50.081
But, uh, but it's, it feels like it's
breaking down those silos and I spent
00:16:50.621 --> 00:16:51.971
years thinking about career paths.
00:16:51.971 --> 00:16:57.551
I'm so glad that, um, we don't have to
always talk about the management track in
00:16:57.551 --> 00:17:00.281
the, the IC track, in, in that same way.
00:17:00.808 --> 00:17:02.248
James: You should, you should go again.
00:17:02.248 --> 00:17:05.548
But with all these little,
uh, micro, uh, uh, tracks,
00:17:06.593 --> 00:17:07.733
Jonny: Thank you, James, but no way.
00:17:08.273 --> 00:17:09.083
Absolutely no way.
00:17:09.823 --> 00:17:12.178
James: the, the, the interesting
you mentioned archetypes there.
00:17:12.178 --> 00:17:17.068
We, we, we had a, um, we had like a,
a senior IC, uh, session with, with
00:17:17.068 --> 00:17:20.398
some designers a couple of weeks ago,
and we started talking about different
00:17:20.398 --> 00:17:24.058
archetypes of our most senior ICs
and like what makes us all unique?
00:17:24.088 --> 00:17:25.168
What are our superpowers?
00:17:25.168 --> 00:17:28.348
How can we bring them to the groups,
uh, to the, to the wider group?
00:17:28.348 --> 00:17:30.808
And, and, you know, everyone does
have a different path and it's now
00:17:30.808 --> 00:17:34.378
starting to sort of like, where,
where are your sort of like skills,
00:17:34.378 --> 00:17:38.488
your strengths, and how can you ex
sort of amplify them with AI, um, and
00:17:38.488 --> 00:17:39.988
with your peers around you as well.
00:17:40.648 --> 00:17:45.298
my, the, the one that kind of came out
for me was, uh, was the trellis, which
00:17:45.388 --> 00:17:49.858
I'm not, I'm not sure I, uh, appreciated
so much, but it was essentially, uh, you
00:17:49.858 --> 00:17:53.998
know, we had some folks that were more
around like, uh, you know, being like a
00:17:53.998 --> 00:17:58.438
sturdy founding, uh, foundation or like a,
a holding wall and they might be like more
00:17:58.438 --> 00:18:02.938
systems focused and mine was more around
like, I enable others to kind of climb
00:18:02.998 --> 00:18:05.788
because I, I'm a wooden fence apparently.
00:18:05.788 --> 00:18:10.528
But, but I think I took it as more like
as, as a, as a compliment, it's like more
00:18:10.528 --> 00:18:15.058
of an enablement, uh, skill set than,
than me just being a, a, a wooden trellis.
00:18:18.529 --> 00:18:19.789
Jonny: An uncanny resemblance.
00:18:20.008 --> 00:18:20.488
James: Thank you.
00:18:20.488 --> 00:18:21.148
I appreciate that.
00:18:23.649 --> 00:18:26.529
Tom: Um, and for anyone who's just
tuning in, we were, uh, talking about
00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:30.789
walls before we started recording,
and James', uh, taking, taking a long
00:18:30.789 --> 00:18:32.169
time to knock down various walls.
00:18:32.169 --> 00:18:34.659
And I feel like that's come full
circle now with the, with the
00:18:35.002 --> 00:18:35.332
James: Yeah.
00:18:35.469 --> 00:18:36.129
Tom: the wooden fence.
00:18:36.309 --> 00:18:37.869
Um, James, I had a question for you.
00:18:37.869 --> 00:18:42.969
Uh, I think it was a, a previous
podcast guest, Avi, at Deel, um, he,
00:18:42.969 --> 00:18:47.529
um, posted this morning or over the
weekend on LinkedIn about the idea of,
00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:51.249
um, raising the floor and raising the
ceiling happening in different ways.
00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:54.249
And the, perhaps the more traditional
model, and this is my interpretation
00:18:54.249 --> 00:18:57.759
of what he was writing, but the more
traditional model of outlining what
00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:02.739
skills are required for a team and
the sort of core competencies of a
00:19:02.859 --> 00:19:04.839
progression framework is that floor.
00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:08.769
But the ceiling is kind of this
more exciting, uncharted territory.
00:19:08.979 --> 00:19:13.539
Um, and your comments there about,
um, archetypes and specialisms, uh,
00:19:13.569 --> 00:19:15.279
sort of start to get at that a bit.
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:19.869
And I remember from my time at Monzo as
well, there was this sense of once you
00:19:19.869 --> 00:19:24.729
reach a certain level, say staff designer,
everything above that level, if you're
00:19:24.729 --> 00:19:29.049
looking for a promotion or looking to
get more senior in your, your role really
00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:33.219
needs to come from you and really be
driven and defined by who you are and
00:19:33.219 --> 00:19:37.449
what you are, what, what value you're
bringing to the, the organisation that
00:19:37.449 --> 00:19:41.289
is uniquely in terms of how you operate.
00:19:42.069 --> 00:19:47.889
I'm kind of curious with your sort of
theme here, how much of it is about
00:19:47.889 --> 00:19:55.269
AI at all versus just individual
growth and sort of skill improvement?
00:19:55.569 --> 00:19:59.739
Like, is there a specific AI lens to it or
it's just like, AI exists now, so why not?
00:19:59.829 --> 00:20:02.589
Like maybe we should talk about
this and, um, and there's probably
00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:04.389
AI ways AI can help with all of it.
00:20:04.629 --> 00:20:07.779
Or is there a more structured way that
AI is sort of integrated into this?
00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:11.709
Because I'm curious how, how that does
raise the ceiling of the team, um, and
00:20:11.769 --> 00:20:16.779
with an organisation of a hundred or so
designers that has the power to be very
00:20:16.779 --> 00:20:20.499
impactful at setting or raising that
bar for, for what teams are capable of.
00:20:21.692 --> 00:20:22.982
James: Yeah, it's, it's a good question.
00:20:22.982 --> 00:20:26.492
It ca it came up, I, I went to Config
this year and it, there was a similar
00:20:26.852 --> 00:20:30.962
quote about sort of AI lowering the
floor, but it's, you know, it's up to
00:20:30.962 --> 00:20:34.922
us as designers as, as, as technical
and non-technical people to, to raise
00:20:34.922 --> 00:20:36.392
what the ceiling raise, what's possible.
00:20:36.872 --> 00:20:42.212
And I think this, this comes across
for me in terms of what I look for
00:20:42.212 --> 00:20:45.542
when I'm thinking about kind of craft
now, when I think about design craft.
00:20:46.802 --> 00:20:49.802
and just to be clear as well, we,
we haven't like solidified anything
00:20:49.802 --> 00:20:51.182
in our progression framework yet.
00:20:51.392 --> 00:20:52.742
I think it's a little too early.
00:20:53.012 --> 00:20:57.092
The, we are gonna make some changes
around just, you know, staying,
00:20:57.122 --> 00:20:58.832
uh, curious, continually learning.
00:20:58.862 --> 00:21:01.502
Uh, and I think AI fits within that band.
00:21:02.372 --> 00:21:04.592
again, it's like, you know,
you don't wanna brush AI on
00:21:04.592 --> 00:21:05.972
everything just for the sake of it.
00:21:06.212 --> 00:21:08.897
I think it's trying to understand that
actually what are we looking for and,
00:21:08.902 --> 00:21:14.432
and how is that gonna sort of help
both individuals and the wider team at
00:21:14.432 --> 00:21:18.422
Monzo, uh, sort of elevate and that, and
I think that's, that's the key for me
00:21:18.422 --> 00:21:22.742
is that, you know, we've always looked
for, in product designs, you always
00:21:22.747 --> 00:21:27.812
look for strong breadth of skills, uh,
like craft skills, um, amongst others.
00:21:28.232 --> 00:21:30.602
And then you look for those
like individual depths, the,
00:21:30.602 --> 00:21:31.772
the, the, the T shape, right?
00:21:32.222 --> 00:21:37.862
So I'm talking to two, two very senior
designers, apologies, and one that built
00:21:37.862 --> 00:21:39.152
the book on progression frameworks.
00:21:39.332 --> 00:21:41.612
So you see what t is,
Jonny, you, you take this.
00:21:43.442 --> 00:21:47.792
But, so the, the, the point I'm making is
that I think there's, there's this a lot
00:21:47.792 --> 00:21:51.662
of information at the minute that makes
it sound like just expected to expand
00:21:51.662 --> 00:21:54.392
and expand and expand our role, and AI's
gonna let us do all of these things,
00:21:54.392 --> 00:21:57.722
and all of a sudden we're gonna, we're
gonna be product managers and engineers,
00:21:57.722 --> 00:21:58.832
and we're all gonna just keep going.
00:21:59.252 --> 00:22:04.322
I'm not sure I view it quite as the same,
but I think it, it widens what we are able
00:22:04.322 --> 00:22:06.152
to do and what we're able to do better.
00:22:06.392 --> 00:22:09.992
Like, there's been a bunch of times
in my career where, you know, uh,
00:22:10.022 --> 00:22:11.702
data has not been a strength of mine.
00:22:11.702 --> 00:22:15.842
Or like, motion, for instance, skills
that you, you know, are definitely
00:22:15.842 --> 00:22:17.642
on that craft, uh, sort of framework.
00:22:17.642 --> 00:22:20.162
But you, you don't always expect,
you're not expect to have them
00:22:20.432 --> 00:22:21.812
or, or even have a depth in them.
00:22:22.524 --> 00:22:27.024
I think that the, that's the floor
sort of lowering to me is that I now
00:22:27.024 --> 00:22:31.224
can go onto Figma and I can say, can
you make these shapes move please?
00:22:31.224 --> 00:22:35.244
And it, you know, it might, it might
do it maybe, but, but the po the real
00:22:35.334 --> 00:22:39.774
point I'm making is, is that it allows
me to have this base entry at the very
00:22:39.774 --> 00:22:43.014
least, to where we have incredible
motion designs, by the way, at Monzo.
00:22:43.014 --> 00:22:45.924
And I wouldn't belittle their skills,
but that's their depth, right?
00:22:46.404 --> 00:22:49.014
And so where I look at it is,
is that it allows me to do that.
00:22:49.074 --> 00:22:53.794
It allows me to interrogate
BigQuery or look at, um, NotebookLM
00:22:54.624 --> 00:22:58.074
Notion and look at our latest, uh,
research studies and really try
00:22:58.074 --> 00:22:59.904
to pull some snippets of insight.
00:22:59.904 --> 00:23:02.574
It shouldn't replace us going and
doing research in specific areas,
00:23:02.574 --> 00:23:05.424
but it's great to be able to
quickly pull together something.
00:23:05.784 --> 00:23:10.224
So that's the breadth for me where
I think that AI really is gonna
00:23:10.374 --> 00:23:12.354
accelerate people is the superpowers.
00:23:12.354 --> 00:23:15.084
It's like, how do you take a
strength that somebody already
00:23:15.084 --> 00:23:18.204
has and it into a superpower?
00:23:18.264 --> 00:23:21.744
It's like, you know, don't, can't
think of an example particularly, but
00:23:21.744 --> 00:23:24.534
I was gonna go for some kind of like
Thor example, but he's got a hammer.
00:23:24.534 --> 00:23:29.994
So, but he, he, but I think, I think
the point is, is that if you're good at
00:23:29.994 --> 00:23:32.184
something, you can be even better at it.
00:23:32.184 --> 00:23:33.504
You can accelerate that.
00:23:33.589 --> 00:23:36.774
And I think that's, like, for me it's
the, it's the, it's the technical side.
00:23:36.774 --> 00:23:38.754
It's the being able to build
stuff, it's the understanding.
00:23:39.024 --> 00:23:42.384
And I've always done a good job at being
able to connect those worlds and really
00:23:42.384 --> 00:23:44.364
being pragmatic about what was possible.
00:23:44.634 --> 00:23:47.184
And I think for a lot of people
now, they can, like, even at the,
00:23:47.184 --> 00:23:49.554
at the base level of that, they
can understand that a bit more.
00:23:49.794 --> 00:23:53.034
Because if they try and mess around in
code for a few hours and you can't, if
00:23:53.034 --> 00:23:56.484
you can't make it do the thing you want it
to do, it's probably not that easy to do.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.924
So, whereas if you have an interaction
in mind or you've seen it and you
00:24:00.924 --> 00:24:03.894
want to sort of play around with it,
you could drop a video of it in, we
00:24:03.894 --> 00:24:06.894
do this a lot now, you sort of like
reverse engineer interaction patterns.
00:24:07.554 --> 00:24:07.764
think.
00:24:07.764 --> 00:24:10.284
Like those things for me are
like, they are really being able
00:24:10.284 --> 00:24:11.514
to accelerate those superpowers.
00:24:11.514 --> 00:24:15.114
And so that was a very long answer
to your question, Tom, but I think
00:24:15.114 --> 00:24:18.234
that's how I see the difference
between sort of like the lowering the
00:24:18.234 --> 00:24:19.494
floor and the raising the ceiling.
00:24:20.723 --> 00:24:21.293
Tom: Yeah, I really
00:24:21.294 --> 00:24:24.354
James: I'm not sure that's the answer
to your question, but I, it's an answer.
00:24:25.103 --> 00:24:26.393
Tom: It's, it's a good,
it's a good answer.
00:24:26.453 --> 00:24:26.723
Yeah.
00:24:26.723 --> 00:24:27.803
I think it makes a lot of sense.
00:24:27.893 --> 00:24:32.483
And then I guess as you get more
senior, that expectation of how you
00:24:32.483 --> 00:24:38.123
raise that ceiling is on you to know
yourself and what, what that shape
00:24:38.123 --> 00:24:42.743
looks like, and maybe the role of
managers to help you back what that is.
00:24:43.163 --> 00:24:47.933
Um, and I guess use AI as well to
even help reveal that to yourself,
00:24:47.993 --> 00:24:49.523
not just to get things done.
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:55.500
James: Yeah, I, I mean, honestly, I
I, I used AI a lot last year when I
00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:59.160
was thinking about what's the type
of role I want post founder and,
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.190
you know, you just talk to it and
say, these are the things I enjoyed.
00:25:02.310 --> 00:25:03.480
These are the things I didn't enjoy.
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.040
Here's where I think my
strengths are, blah, blah.
00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:08.400
And it can just be a really great
sparring partner in that respect.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.665
And, uh, it's either, it's either talk
to ChatGPT or talk to my wife and I,
00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:15.840
I, I get pretty much the, uh, opposite
I get sycophant and, no, just do it.
00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:19.140
I'll let you decide which is which.
00:25:24.275 --> 00:25:24.935
Tom: Amazing.
00:25:25.115 --> 00:25:28.055
Um, James, I'm gonna switch
gears a little bit unless you
00:25:28.055 --> 00:25:29.205
have any more follow ups, Jonny.
00:25:30.719 --> 00:25:33.329
Jonny: No, I, I mean, it has made
me think quite a lot actually
00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:36.449
about this sort of choice.
00:25:36.899 --> 00:25:40.349
Is there this choice that we start
to have now where we can go and
00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:44.609
specialise in some new direction
because we've got extra tools.
00:25:44.609 --> 00:25:46.859
Like I could go and become a
design engineer even though
00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:47.879
I've never been an engineer.
00:25:48.089 --> 00:25:49.769
Maybe to maybe a little bit.
00:25:50.159 --> 00:25:54.629
But I think what we've always found,
and we've talked about it on this
00:25:54.629 --> 00:25:59.399
podcast before, is in any given
domain, everyone outside that domain
00:25:59.399 --> 00:26:01.589
is like, oh, AI can do that now.
00:26:01.589 --> 00:26:04.349
So, you know, design is cooked
or et cetera, et cetera, all
00:26:04.349 --> 00:26:05.909
of this ridiculous stuff.
00:26:06.179 --> 00:26:10.319
Anyone who's inside that domain and
knows what good looks like, knows
00:26:10.379 --> 00:26:15.869
that that not to be true, and there
still needs to be true expertise.
00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:21.599
And actually the what it means to be an
expert changes and will, will rise as, um,
00:26:21.629 --> 00:26:25.769
the technology enables more of the, the
easy stuff or the rote work to be done.
00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:31.919
And so, uh, it would be easy to like
tell a story of, well, everyone,
00:26:31.979 --> 00:26:35.279
every designer can now do everything
because there's AI to do it.
00:26:36.569 --> 00:26:42.179
But in fact, the, the standard and the
expectation is shifting such that, um, you
00:26:42.179 --> 00:26:46.559
know, I, it, it's, it's still a function
of how much time someone has in the day.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:50.759
Like, I can't be an excellent PM and
an excellent engineer and an excellent
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.039
designer because there just isn't
enough time and I don't have enough
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.689
time to get good at all of those things.
00:26:54.689 --> 00:26:57.509
So I'll end up still being mediocre
at all of them, which is why it
00:26:57.509 --> 00:26:59.039
would've been five years ago as well.
00:26:59.789 --> 00:27:06.719
Um, it's just interesting to think about,
I think like this illusion of all powerful
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:12.809
designers, when I suspect that will not
be the end result, we will still need
00:27:12.809 --> 00:27:17.879
to have someone who's exceptional at
emotion if we really care about that.
00:27:18.029 --> 00:27:19.949
There'll be a set of companies
where they're like, yeah, it's
00:27:19.949 --> 00:27:21.659
fine, you know, it's good enough.
00:27:22.139 --> 00:27:26.879
Um, or they don't wanna spend the money
on the, the specialisms, but yeah.
00:27:27.778 --> 00:27:28.108
James: I, I, I agree.
00:27:28.113 --> 00:27:33.448
I, I, I don't think, the way, any
of the, the sort of AI assisted
00:27:33.448 --> 00:27:36.328
coding or products that I do, I think
any of that makes me an engineer.
00:27:36.778 --> 00:27:40.918
And similarly, I, you know, you said like,
what, what other things did it apply to?
00:27:40.918 --> 00:27:43.378
Like, I've been messing around
with hardware, I've never touched
00:27:43.378 --> 00:27:44.998
hardware in, in, in my life.
00:27:45.268 --> 00:27:48.268
And now I'm like, oh, am I a,
am I a physical engineer now?
00:27:48.268 --> 00:27:48.988
You know, cool.
00:27:49.258 --> 00:27:53.098
Uh, I'm, I'm even looking at, I was
looking at soldering irons the other day.
00:27:53.098 --> 00:27:53.968
I don't even how to use it.
00:27:53.968 --> 00:27:56.188
I haven't used it since I was like 15.
00:27:57.028 --> 00:27:57.148
very
00:27:57.247 --> 00:27:59.407
Jonny: But now you work in
robotics, James, obviously.
00:27:59.458 --> 00:27:59.518
James: a
00:27:59.887 --> 00:28:00.127
Jonny: Yeah.
00:28:00.268 --> 00:28:00.808
James: engineer.
00:28:00.937 --> 00:28:01.297
Jonny: Yeah.
00:28:01.438 --> 00:28:03.058
James: I'm, I'm, I'm, I've got promoted.
00:28:03.508 --> 00:28:07.558
But I, I think, I think that,
hon, honestly, you are right.
00:28:07.618 --> 00:28:09.508
None of these things
makes you those things.
00:28:09.508 --> 00:28:12.598
It doesn't make me a great engineer
or a great product manager, et cetera.
00:28:12.808 --> 00:28:16.168
And likewise, it doesn't make an engineer
a great designer if they go and prompt
00:28:16.468 --> 00:28:18.868
Stitch to, to throw a few visuals out.
00:28:19.288 --> 00:28:23.788
It's, it's still the core skills that we
have make us great at those specialisms.
00:28:23.788 --> 00:28:28.378
But I, I love the mentality
of I can go and try things.
00:28:28.588 --> 00:28:30.178
I can do, do X, Y, and Z.
00:28:31.108 --> 00:28:33.478
Um, and I would love
to, to do more of that.
00:28:33.478 --> 00:28:36.548
Like gen like the hardware thing came
about from, you know, I've, I've,
00:28:36.568 --> 00:28:40.558
I've conquered all these mountains,
like what's, what's, what's next?
00:28:40.618 --> 00:28:42.778
Um, it was actually 'cause I wanted
to build something for my kids.
00:28:42.778 --> 00:28:46.978
But I, I think, I think the, the great
thing is, is just that, that feeling of
00:28:46.978 --> 00:28:51.778
possibility of like, that you can have a
go at anything where previously, you know,
00:28:51.838 --> 00:28:56.088
the first hurdle that you hit and you're
like, nah, I'll go back to drawing boxes.
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:57.259
Tom: Yeah.
00:28:57.349 --> 00:28:58.819
What, what have you built recently?
00:28:59.089 --> 00:28:59.359
What?
00:28:59.449 --> 00:29:00.799
What are some examples of that hardware?
00:29:01.596 --> 00:29:06.336
James: Yeah, so we, we actually had a
guy, um, Rob, uh, who had been playing
00:29:06.336 --> 00:29:08.526
around with these little M5Stack sticks.
00:29:08.586 --> 00:29:12.456
Uh, and he'd managed to get his kids
like balances, uh, showing on them
00:29:12.456 --> 00:29:15.696
because obviously like without a
phone, uh, on kids accounts at the
00:29:15.696 --> 00:29:17.196
minute they can't see their balance.
00:29:17.196 --> 00:29:20.226
And my, my two have, my youngest
just turned six, uh, this year,
00:29:20.226 --> 00:29:21.876
so they both now got accounts.
00:29:22.206 --> 00:29:23.526
So I, I built that.
00:29:23.586 --> 00:29:26.646
Um, then that kind of like goes,
oh, I can build on hardware now.
00:29:26.646 --> 00:29:30.846
So you, you sort of, you branch out
a little and, uh, I built, uh, an
00:29:30.846 --> 00:29:35.406
app on our tv, our Samsung tv, uh,
for like a, to show, sort of show our
00:29:35.406 --> 00:29:40.056
calendars to show things like, uh, we
haven't got like, to-do lists a lot.
00:29:40.056 --> 00:29:42.396
A lot of it's through like Google,
uh, you know, you'll have like
00:29:42.396 --> 00:29:43.566
Google apps that do a lot of this.
00:29:43.566 --> 00:29:46.716
So if you kind of just build in,
build into an ecosystem, you can
00:29:46.716 --> 00:29:48.246
get quite a bit quite far from it.
00:29:48.246 --> 00:29:52.926
So just showing like our our to-do
lists, like where we're gonna be and
00:29:52.926 --> 00:29:56.676
when, like, um, and then we, I did put
the kids balances on there as well,
00:29:56.676 --> 00:29:57.966
just so they could see it on the screen.
00:29:57.996 --> 00:30:00.186
And it is just something like that
that's really fun and enjoyable.
00:30:00.546 --> 00:30:01.296
And even if my wife
00:30:01.343 --> 00:30:03.443
Jonny: I assume you didn't put
your balance on there, James.
00:30:03.496 --> 00:30:06.256
James: no, I mean my, I, I should
just write note on the screen
00:30:06.256 --> 00:30:07.456
and it's, uh, it'll be done.
00:30:07.463 --> 00:30:07.943
Jonny: Hard coded.
00:30:07.966 --> 00:30:13.006
James: Uh, yeah, e even if my wife refuses
to open it, I'm still proud that I did it.
00:30:14.146 --> 00:30:18.466
But I, I think those things, it's like,
it is, it's like a, a bit of a gateway.
00:30:18.466 --> 00:30:20.476
It kind of like pulls
you into the next thing.
00:30:20.476 --> 00:30:24.646
So now, um, I dunno whether you're
familiar with the, the, the sort of, um,
00:30:24.886 --> 00:30:26.746
the LightUp keyboards that you can get.
00:30:26.896 --> 00:30:30.136
Uh, uh, it used to be called Lumi,
but it's, it's called ROLI now.
00:30:30.376 --> 00:30:33.046
So they, they're, they're
unfortunately not doing very well.
00:30:33.286 --> 00:30:36.166
I hope that they pull out of it, but
what they did was open source, all
00:30:36.166 --> 00:30:40.516
of the, the code so that if it does
go down, then people can still kind
00:30:40.516 --> 00:30:43.816
of use the, the hardware devices
that they've, that they've bought.
00:30:43.816 --> 00:30:44.956
And so I was like, oh, okay.
00:30:45.406 --> 00:30:49.936
So now I'm trying to build a, an
app to work with a Lumi device.
00:30:49.936 --> 00:30:53.446
So it's, I don't know, I, I think these
things, like you say, have a way of, of
00:30:53.446 --> 00:30:54.766
making you feel that things are possible.
00:30:54.766 --> 00:30:59.806
And I genuinely think if I, if I
was gonna be around with anything,
00:31:00.106 --> 00:31:04.606
this would be my state of mind, not
what can I build to make some money.
00:31:04.636 --> 00:31:08.506
And I think that's where people perhaps
go a little bit wrong is that you,
00:31:08.896 --> 00:31:12.346
you see it on, on Reddit and other
channels, it's like, you know, my app
00:31:12.346 --> 00:31:17.416
that's doing a hundred thousand pounds
MRR and that, you're like, okay, sure.
00:31:17.416 --> 00:31:22.426
And, and so tho those for me is like, it's
like cha chasing the dream, whereas I'm
00:31:22.426 --> 00:31:25.576
happier that I'm just building something
to solve my own personal problem.
00:31:26.236 --> 00:31:28.336
uh, we have had like a bit of
internal debate around that.
00:31:28.336 --> 00:31:31.546
It's like whether or not that will
be more of a thing going forwards.
00:31:31.546 --> 00:31:35.506
Like if you might see more personal apps,
like would you, could you even imagine
00:31:35.506 --> 00:31:37.216
a personal app store on your phone?
00:31:37.216 --> 00:31:39.766
Like, these are the kind of
things that I would love to see.
00:31:40.216 --> 00:31:43.546
Um, it's just more like niche products
than what we thought, what we've
00:31:43.546 --> 00:31:46.336
had to date, which are kinda like
bigger products that do a lot more.
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:47.339
Jonny: Yeah.
00:31:47.386 --> 00:31:50.596
James: I, I, I'd be really interested
in following that thread and seeing,
00:31:51.046 --> 00:31:52.351
seeing like really where that comes out.
00:31:52.351 --> 00:31:54.766
Because I don't know whether it's the
thing I want or whether it's just the
00:31:54.766 --> 00:31:56.386
thing I want right now because it's fun.
00:31:56.866 --> 00:31:59.776
Um, you know, if it becomes a
point of like, people stop building
00:31:59.776 --> 00:32:02.536
these bigger apps because people
are building niche ones and I
00:32:02.623 --> 00:32:02.953
Jonny: Hmm.
00:32:03.076 --> 00:32:06.916
James: a app to do a certain thing, I've
gotta go and build it to just to get it.
00:32:07.486 --> 00:32:08.866
I think that would be a bit of a blocker.
00:32:08.866 --> 00:32:09.676
But yeah.
00:32:11.199 --> 00:32:11.379
Jonny: Yeah.
00:32:11.379 --> 00:32:15.309
With there, there's been a, probably about
a year ago there was this, uh, iPhone app
00:32:15.309 --> 00:32:21.879
released Wabi, WABI, which promised to be
this sort of, uh, personal app builder.
00:32:22.179 --> 00:32:23.889
I'm not sure how well it's
doing 'cause I haven't heard
00:32:24.009 --> 00:32:26.949
that much about it post-launch.
00:32:26.949 --> 00:32:31.719
But there is this bet, I suppose, that
everyone will be a builder at some point.
00:32:31.719 --> 00:32:33.399
Everyone will build their own tools.
00:32:33.939 --> 00:32:40.929
I suspect you and us three on
this call are outliers in, in
00:32:40.929 --> 00:32:43.269
the sort of broader ecosystem.
00:32:43.629 --> 00:32:45.819
Well beyond design, you
know, normal, normal.
00:32:45.819 --> 00:32:48.999
If I imagine my mother-in-law doing
something, I, I, I can't imagine, you
00:32:48.999 --> 00:32:52.689
know, she's gonna be digging around
trying to build something anytime soon.
00:32:53.439 --> 00:32:57.339
But if the technology gets to a place
where it just feels like an app you're
00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:00.974
using and you're just asking a question
and then it like, makes something and, and
00:33:00.979 --> 00:33:02.589
it says, do you wanna do that every day?
00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:05.709
And you say yes and then suddenly
you've built one without knowing maybe
00:33:05.709 --> 00:33:07.809
it can sort of get to that place.
00:33:07.929 --> 00:33:11.199
I do like what you're saying
about this sort of, um,
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:18.639
personal like hobby
cottage, app building type.
00:33:18.849 --> 00:33:22.569
We do stuff for fun as a family when we
might have played a board game instead.
00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:23.649
We'll like build a thing.
00:33:23.679 --> 00:33:25.869
Tom, I know you are doing a lot
of this kind of stuff as well.
00:33:26.409 --> 00:33:30.519
Um, and where whether there will
be anything in between where more
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:35.409
people become entrepreneurs to try
and make money, or it might just
00:33:35.409 --> 00:33:40.149
be like hobbyists and like, you
know, people takes over Warhammer
00:33:41.075 --> 00:33:41.405
Tom: Yeah,
00:33:41.619 --> 00:33:42.279
Jonny: that's like where.
00:33:43.325 --> 00:33:44.915
Tom: yeah, I've, I've
been thinking about this.
00:33:45.005 --> 00:33:49.505
Um, we are recording this on a Monday,
on Friday, we recorded the last episode
00:33:49.505 --> 00:33:55.115
of just Jonny and I, we, and I mentioned
in there about building a, a, uh, to
00:33:55.115 --> 00:33:57.545
play chess game for my 5-year-old son.
00:33:57.815 --> 00:34:01.815
Um, and it was really an ex just
a chance to explore Three.js
00:34:01.835 --> 00:34:03.455
and what it can do with
creating a 3D world.
00:34:03.455 --> 00:34:08.315
And we had this underwater world with fish
and things playing different chess pieces.
00:34:08.315 --> 00:34:12.095
And, um, anyway, that was
two days ago, three days ago.
00:34:12.155 --> 00:34:16.745
And on the weekend, on Saturday,
I was like, oh, I, I, is a, looks,
00:34:16.745 --> 00:34:19.835
this is cool as a proof of concept
experiment, but I don't think my
00:34:19.835 --> 00:34:21.125
son's actually gonna wanna play this.
00:34:21.215 --> 00:34:26.615
So I had cla Claude turn it back into a
2D game, make it more of a pixel art style
00:34:26.615 --> 00:34:30.575
with like these sort of rainbow colours
and like, want some motion animation, make
00:34:30.575 --> 00:34:34.415
these have characters, give them eyes,
make them move around, do fun things.
00:34:34.895 --> 00:34:38.555
Um, and then we played together on
Saturday for about an hour, um, during our
00:34:38.555 --> 00:34:41.165
youngest times, youngest one's nap time.
00:34:42.005 --> 00:34:46.895
Anyway, the whole experience felt like,
left me with a question of is this,
00:34:47.345 --> 00:34:50.975
is this actually is the value here
the personal software that I created?
00:34:50.975 --> 00:34:55.415
Or is it the, the process of collaborating
with my 5-year-old to make something
00:34:55.415 --> 00:34:57.125
that feels more fun and engaging?
00:34:57.125 --> 00:34:59.345
And it doesn't actually
matter if that's any good.
00:34:59.585 --> 00:35:02.645
Um, it's the process of creating
it together that this now enables.
00:35:02.945 --> 00:35:07.925
Um, and it's sort of hard to imagine
there being a big enough value difference
00:35:07.925 --> 00:35:12.305
between a dedicated piece of software like
Wabi versus just using Claude Code or some
00:35:12.305 --> 00:35:18.425
other, other sort of fairly mainstream
LLM coding agent to be able to build that.
00:35:19.745 --> 00:35:23.405
yeah, I think the, the value was, this
experience at least, was less about
00:35:23.405 --> 00:35:28.475
the a kid's chess game and more about
collaborating to create something that
00:35:28.475 --> 00:35:32.585
was managed to weave in the things I
was interested in helping my son learn
00:35:32.615 --> 00:35:36.335
and creating it into a format that was
fun and exciting for him to play with.
00:35:36.725 --> 00:35:40.235
So turning this back around to, to
you James, and the, the whole point
00:35:40.235 --> 00:35:42.425
of this actual interview, um, yeah.
00:35:42.425 --> 00:35:45.725
Some of those examples you gave there with
the, with the TV and hardware and trying
00:35:45.785 --> 00:35:51.125
bank balances for kids, I'm, I'm curious
about your perspective on involving,
00:35:51.605 --> 00:35:55.295
involving your kids in these experiments
or your wife or other sort of people in
00:35:55.295 --> 00:35:59.795
shaping them, or if it still feels like
it's a solo, like you are the author of
00:35:59.795 --> 00:36:03.965
this product and it's just like the, has
a very specific niche target, but it's
00:36:04.175 --> 00:36:07.145
less about the collaboration to create it.
00:36:08.476 --> 00:36:09.646
James: Yeah, I, I think so.
00:36:09.646 --> 00:36:11.656
So sometimes it definitely
is the, the latter.
00:36:11.656 --> 00:36:14.956
It's like, I will have an idea and
I just want to pursue it, but I,
00:36:14.956 --> 00:36:18.856
yeah, I definitely used it to, to
sort of play around with my kids.
00:36:18.886 --> 00:36:23.596
My, my wife is usually more, she have
an idea and say, I want you to build it.
00:36:24.021 --> 00:36:26.116
And I keep being like, I, you
know, I, I would like that it's
00:36:26.326 --> 00:36:29.116
something that we do together, which
I think we, we will eventually.
00:36:29.116 --> 00:36:32.596
But yeah, certainly my, my,
my, my son especially has
00:36:32.596 --> 00:36:34.276
shown a great interest in it.
00:36:34.396 --> 00:36:37.846
I think he kind of pokes his head in
here sometimes and sees me doing stuff
00:36:37.846 --> 00:36:39.346
and he is curious, what are you doing?
00:36:39.376 --> 00:36:44.686
And we, similarly, Tom, we, we built a
Nuno game, um, which for copyright reasons
00:36:44.686 --> 00:36:49.001
I'm gonna call Duo, um, or dos do surely.
00:36:49.396 --> 00:36:54.736
Uh, and so yeah, we, um, he
basically wanted to play, uh, more
00:36:54.741 --> 00:36:55.756
and, and it sounds really bad.
00:36:55.756 --> 00:36:57.826
I didn't build it to not play
with my son, just to be clear.
00:36:57.946 --> 00:37:00.226
He went to play on his own,
but also with other people.
00:37:01.096 --> 00:37:03.526
And you, got the card
sets and he loves them.
00:37:03.586 --> 00:37:06.526
Uh, and he's got like a few different
versions, but he basically wanted to
00:37:06.526 --> 00:37:10.156
build it so that he could play with
his like nanny and grampy or with
00:37:10.156 --> 00:37:11.446
his aunties and stuff like that.
00:37:11.836 --> 00:37:14.806
Uh, and also he wanted to make
his own versions, his own rules.
00:37:14.836 --> 00:37:16.276
He was like, I want it to explode.
00:37:16.666 --> 00:37:18.586
I'm like, what's,
what's, what's exploding?
00:37:19.636 --> 00:37:23.296
And so, so we built, we built the
core game and then built like a, an
00:37:23.296 --> 00:37:27.526
invite, uh, system so he can, he can
put their number in, it'll text, text
00:37:27.526 --> 00:37:29.266
them a link and they can play together.
00:37:29.956 --> 00:37:31.666
built that and he absolutely loved it.
00:37:31.666 --> 00:37:34.366
So then we started building more
ru rules, different game types,
00:37:34.666 --> 00:37:37.876
and he has got, yeah, he's got a,
an extreme version, which does,
00:37:37.906 --> 00:37:39.976
uh, basically cards can explode.
00:37:41.266 --> 00:37:45.586
So, but this, I think it's, you know, I,
I love chasing down those cur curiosities
00:37:45.586 --> 00:37:46.876
and I think that is really great.
00:37:47.146 --> 00:37:51.466
And I, I would love, I mean, I, I've
not got there yet, but I would love for
00:37:51.466 --> 00:37:53.236
him to be able to do that on his own.
00:37:54.226 --> 00:37:57.016
I think maybe at all, like,
uh, you know, that Lovable or
00:37:57.016 --> 00:38:00.016
something like that might, might be
beneficial for him in that respect.
00:38:00.496 --> 00:38:04.306
Um, not to sort of pencil any particular
one out, but I can't see him like firing
00:38:04.306 --> 00:38:06.076
up Claude Code anytime soon, for instance.
00:38:06.406 --> 00:38:09.106
But I, I, I do, I would love
for him to be able to do that.
00:38:09.106 --> 00:38:12.226
And so when I was, when we were
building it, I was trying to get him
00:38:12.226 --> 00:38:15.976
to do the talking, so like, speak to
it, tell it what you want it to do.
00:38:16.336 --> 00:38:19.696
Trying to understand that this is
like prompt engineering of some kind.
00:38:20.481 --> 00:38:22.186
it is, you know, it is
like building those skills.
00:38:22.186 --> 00:38:22.456
I think.
00:38:22.486 --> 00:38:25.636
I mean, I mean like, you know, for,
for what it's worth as much as what
00:38:25.636 --> 00:38:30.346
we've learned in our X amount of
years, uh, gents, I, he, he's like
00:38:30.826 --> 00:38:35.296
a, he knows how to use his iPad more
than I ever have known how to use it,
00:38:35.716 --> 00:38:37.996
um, to the point where he actually
mentioned lock me out of it, which I
00:38:37.996 --> 00:38:39.616
couldn't actually figure out how he did.
00:38:40.336 --> 00:38:42.736
they're, and they're gonna be AI
native, these kids, so they're,
00:38:42.736 --> 00:38:44.086
they are, they're gonna fly.
00:38:44.850 --> 00:38:48.060
I think kind of enabling those
curiosities now is great.
00:38:48.060 --> 00:38:51.990
And I also sort of think to sort of
bring it back to the broader design
00:38:51.990 --> 00:38:55.080
team and how we work in companies
is, it's the same thing really.
00:38:55.230 --> 00:38:58.770
I mean, I don't, I don't sit with
many of the, uh, staff, you know,
00:38:58.770 --> 00:39:00.420
and teach them how to build, do know.
00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:05.700
But I do think it's like, it's stoking
that curiosity and uh, and honestly
00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:08.730
like, you know, it, it's just having
that kind of growth mindset, that
00:39:08.730 --> 00:39:10.920
learning mindset that's, that's required.
00:39:11.790 --> 00:39:15.240
Um, and I don't think that means
that everybody needs to be a builder.
00:39:15.270 --> 00:39:17.340
I think it's the same point as I
just made about me and my wife, like
00:39:17.370 --> 00:39:20.310
I'm the builder, but she can have
ideas and wanna know how to do it.
00:39:20.790 --> 00:39:26.370
That that curiosity at work can sometimes
be, are a bunch of people that are
00:39:26.490 --> 00:39:31.500
enabling, laying those foundations and
creating the right environment so that
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:33.900
anyone can, can pursue those curiosities.
00:39:34.170 --> 00:39:37.140
So then when they are there and they
want to do it, you need it to be simple.
00:39:37.140 --> 00:39:38.490
You need it to be easy to access.
00:39:38.490 --> 00:39:40.170
And so they can just go and do it.
00:39:40.170 --> 00:39:43.380
And we, we've had some real success
with that and I, I, it's been really
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:47.310
nice to see people that would've, you
know, six months ago say, I'm, I'm
00:39:47.310 --> 00:39:49.350
terrified of AI, I dunno what I'm doing.
00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:50.190
I dunno what's going on.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:54.960
To then be like building like
full flows with, with APIs, with
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.350
data call up and, and doing it
like pretty much on their own.
00:39:58.590 --> 00:40:00.600
It's really nice to see
that progression happen.
00:40:01.343 --> 00:40:04.733
Jonny: Yeah, I, um, I was with my
parents this weekend and I told
00:40:04.733 --> 00:40:09.323
my dad, who's a vicar, uh, about
Lovable, and I said, you know, you
00:40:09.323 --> 00:40:10.613
could build the new church website.
00:40:10.613 --> 00:40:12.443
And he said, oh, the
church website's awful.
00:40:12.833 --> 00:40:15.533
And we have a web guy,
he's a young guy, about 50.
00:40:15.923 --> 00:40:20.393
And I was like, of that, you know, the,
the, the average age of the sort of church
00:40:20.393 --> 00:40:23.363
team is such that the young guys are 50.
00:40:23.753 --> 00:40:24.893
But, uh, he's like,
00:40:25.052 --> 00:40:25.262
James: niche
00:40:25.433 --> 00:40:27.923
Jonny: how, how long would
it take for me to build this?
00:40:27.983 --> 00:40:30.833
And I was like, I mean, the church
website must gonna be half an hour,
00:40:30.833 --> 00:40:31.973
probably, something like that.
00:40:31.973 --> 00:40:34.433
You know, just point at the
old one to get the brand and
00:40:34.433 --> 00:40:36.383
then, you know, uh, off you go.
00:40:36.833 --> 00:40:42.713
Uh, so yet to yet I wanna watch him do it
because, you know, if my, uh, 69-year-old
00:40:42.713 --> 00:40:46.493
father can, can navigate Lovable and build
something good, then, you know, that's a,
00:40:47.423 --> 00:40:48.773
there's something very interesting there.
00:40:49.043 --> 00:40:49.463
Anyway.
00:40:49.463 --> 00:40:49.733
Right.
00:40:49.733 --> 00:40:53.423
Let's move on because I really want
to hit, I wasn't at mostly working.
00:40:53.423 --> 00:40:57.503
James, you, you came and spoke at
Mostly working, which is, uh, Tom's,
00:40:57.563 --> 00:41:01.343
uh, meetup that he runs for design
and AI in London, which is excellent.
00:41:01.971 --> 00:41:02.121
Tom: With
00:41:02.183 --> 00:41:04.853
Jonny: came and spoke at it with
Simon from Morse, sorry, yes.
00:41:04.853 --> 00:41:05.603
With Simon from Morse.
00:41:05.843 --> 00:41:07.673
Um, James spoke at it.
00:41:07.673 --> 00:41:08.783
I couldn't make that one.
00:41:08.783 --> 00:41:10.103
I was gutted to miss it.
00:41:10.553 --> 00:41:15.323
I would love to just hear, uh, and
I think everyone that wasn't at that
00:41:15.323 --> 00:41:19.313
event, we would love to hear what you
spoke about, the specific project that
00:41:19.313 --> 00:41:25.433
you were working on at Monzo that you
demoed, uh, and, um, you know, like how
00:41:25.433 --> 00:41:29.333
transformative that's been, because I
think every team could learn from this.
00:41:29.333 --> 00:41:30.833
So I'll, I'll hand over to you.
00:41:31.612 --> 00:41:31.902
James: Yeah.
00:41:31.907 --> 00:41:31.942
Yeah.
00:41:31.942 --> 00:41:32.272
Awesome.
00:41:32.272 --> 00:41:32.602
Thanks.
00:41:32.662 --> 00:41:36.142
Um, yeah, so I think it was actually
similar to what I was just saying
00:41:36.142 --> 00:41:40.612
is that it was very much how we're
trying to enable designers to
00:41:40.612 --> 00:41:44.452
use AI, you know, inside of real,
a real team, real organisation.
00:41:44.872 --> 00:41:48.022
Um, and the core argument that I
was making was kind of the biggest
00:41:48.022 --> 00:41:52.702
value that we can have as designers
and, and other non-technical staff
00:41:52.702 --> 00:41:57.772
at the minute isn't suddenly that we
ship production code and we're like
00:41:57.982 --> 00:41:59.662
committing to the actual code base.
00:41:59.662 --> 00:42:03.472
In some, in some companies, that
is gonna be the biggest leverage.
00:42:03.472 --> 00:42:05.177
And so I, I think my point was not around.
00:42:06.428 --> 00:42:07.328
Don't do that.
00:42:07.328 --> 00:42:10.088
It was more that you've gotta
find the right leverage for your
00:42:10.088 --> 00:42:14.138
organisation and for us it's very
much like if we can reduce friction
00:42:14.138 --> 00:42:18.458
to the tools, we can improve the
quality, uh, and speed to learning.
00:42:18.493 --> 00:42:22.358
And, and basically I think I called
the talk, uh, the messy middle.
00:42:22.718 --> 00:42:26.318
And yeah, it was really like trying to
define that gap between, uh, as I've
00:42:26.318 --> 00:42:30.008
mentioned at the start of the, the
podcast was between like AI, you know,
00:42:30.008 --> 00:42:34.148
the public narrative of AI is replacing
everyone and anyone can ship immediately
00:42:34.148 --> 00:42:35.918
and make a hundred thousand MRR.
00:42:36.368 --> 00:42:41.738
Um, but versus like the actual reality
of using AI tooling inside mature
00:42:41.738 --> 00:42:45.278
organisation, but inside a regulated
organisation, you know, I know there are
00:42:45.278 --> 00:42:50.588
other banks, fintechs that don't even have
access to ums to, to this kind of tooling.
00:42:50.588 --> 00:42:53.108
So it's, you know, it is
great that we have got that.
00:42:53.948 --> 00:42:58.178
I think for us, like the, work
has really been like a mix of,
00:42:58.238 --> 00:43:01.418
of having this like prototyping
infrastructure that I've helped build.
00:43:01.868 --> 00:43:04.568
Um, but also like safe
access to the tools.
00:43:04.568 --> 00:43:09.878
Like we have contracts in place with all
of these LLMs so that we're not using, you
00:43:09.878 --> 00:43:11.918
know, they can't use it for training data.
00:43:11.948 --> 00:43:13.778
We're not putting PII data in there.
00:43:14.168 --> 00:43:19.238
Um, but equally like you need
infrastructure to help you settle this up.
00:43:19.238 --> 00:43:22.778
So you have to have like security
and platform supports, uh, to
00:43:22.778 --> 00:43:24.548
give you sort of that capability.
00:43:24.998 --> 00:43:26.948
Um, so it is a, it is a team effort.
00:43:27.038 --> 00:43:30.068
I'll be, honestly, everyone's sort of
bringing their bit, but we, we, like I
00:43:30.068 --> 00:43:35.798
said, the core from my perspective was
if we can improve the kind of quality
00:43:35.798 --> 00:43:40.028
of our prototyping, our, our learning,
we can get these like higher quality
00:43:40.028 --> 00:43:44.378
insights just to basically, I don't
think it's even efficiency at this point.
00:43:44.378 --> 00:43:46.928
We, we were talking about it
more as if you look at like an
00:43:46.928 --> 00:43:51.758
efficiency by value graph, very
much at the top end of the value.
00:43:51.938 --> 00:43:54.158
I'm not sure we're like
that much more efficient.
00:43:54.428 --> 00:43:57.398
You probably just spend more time
like, you know, stressing the details.
00:43:57.398 --> 00:44:01.118
This isn't a bad thing, but I think
the higher value is that we are
00:44:01.118 --> 00:44:05.108
able to just be more sure about
the direction we're going in.
00:44:05.108 --> 00:44:08.438
We can get this like much,
much higher quality signal.
00:44:08.498 --> 00:44:12.308
I mean, like you consider, even a year
ago we were probably still stressing
00:44:12.308 --> 00:44:14.348
about how do we put inputs in prototypes.
00:44:14.708 --> 00:44:19.118
It is, it's really, it's really
mental that we've gone from having
00:44:19.118 --> 00:44:23.288
been able to solve that for 10 years
all of a sudden, hey, we can do that.
00:44:23.288 --> 00:44:26.378
And also here's this entire
database backend that we can
00:44:26.408 --> 00:44:28.358
have that mi that mimics a bank.
00:44:29.558 --> 00:44:32.888
so, so that, that's, that's just to
bring it back to the point that's,
00:44:32.918 --> 00:44:37.028
that's actually what we've built
is this kind of clone of the Monzo
00:44:37.058 --> 00:44:40.028
product and, and, uh, uh, an ecosystem.
00:44:40.028 --> 00:44:44.168
So we have, um, a design prototype,
uh, built and React Native.
00:44:44.228 --> 00:44:48.998
So it feels, it feels like the
Monzo app, but it's using all,
00:44:49.058 --> 00:44:50.528
uh, sort of like fake data.
00:44:51.228 --> 00:44:55.008
We can create accounts, connected
accounts, we can simulate transactions.
00:44:55.398 --> 00:44:59.988
And what it's allowed us to do is to
be able to build much faster into,
00:44:59.988 --> 00:45:01.908
you know, more murky directions.
00:45:01.908 --> 00:45:03.288
You can prototype much more quickly.
00:45:03.288 --> 00:45:04.158
You have an idea.
00:45:04.428 --> 00:45:08.808
And rather than jump into Figma sometimes
it's much quicker, especially where a
00:45:08.808 --> 00:45:12.108
lot of the things that we're thinking
about at the minute are AI enabled.
00:45:12.168 --> 00:45:14.058
It's quite hard to do
that on a static canvas.
00:45:14.478 --> 00:45:18.438
You use using a, a prompting
agent as your canvas.
00:45:18.438 --> 00:45:21.228
You say, this is what I want it to
do, here's how I want it to work.
00:45:21.528 --> 00:45:23.268
You might want to add some colour on that.
00:45:23.268 --> 00:45:26.208
This is what it, I, I've sort of
like mocked it up to look like, but
00:45:26.208 --> 00:45:30.798
we built it all on our rails of our
component system so it knows of our DS.
00:45:30.858 --> 00:45:34.578
It's like, it, it's, you can
get much, much better quality.
00:45:34.578 --> 00:45:37.668
I think I called it, um, previously
where you might have used
00:45:37.668 --> 00:45:39.368
Figma Make, Lovable or similar.
00:45:39.728 --> 00:45:44.778
You kind of got the, uh, the Temu Monzo,
which is, you know, it it, it just comes
00:45:44.778 --> 00:45:47.118
out splashed with a bit of Hot Coral.
00:45:47.388 --> 00:45:48.588
It looks awful.
00:45:48.588 --> 00:45:50.118
It doesn't look anything like the product.
00:45:50.358 --> 00:45:53.298
And I think we, we actually,
honestly, you know, I, I'm, I'm
00:45:53.298 --> 00:45:56.418
still, I'm still believing using
the right hammer for the right nail.
00:45:56.418 --> 00:45:59.633
And I'm not saying that the React
Native app is their only way to, to
00:45:59.688 --> 00:46:04.488
test anything or the inner way to learn,
ultimately as well, you know, it's, it's
00:46:04.488 --> 00:46:10.338
difficult to go out to users as a bank,
show them this hacked together product
00:46:10.338 --> 00:46:14.088
and be like, can you, uh, can you, you
know, what would you do with your money?
00:46:14.088 --> 00:46:16.398
Or could you tell us how, where
you would put your account details?
00:46:16.488 --> 00:46:19.818
And you know, they're gonna
go, is this, is this real?
00:46:19.848 --> 00:46:22.068
Is this, is this actually the case?
00:46:22.068 --> 00:46:24.438
And so I, I think you, you know,
you have to think about it from
00:46:24.438 --> 00:46:25.668
a security perspective as well.
00:46:26.058 --> 00:46:29.328
Um, but yeah, what we've built, I'm,
I'm, I'm really pleased with and
00:46:29.328 --> 00:46:33.858
yeah, it really is enabling us to,
to sort of move, move faster in,
00:46:33.858 --> 00:46:35.058
in lots of different directions.
00:46:35.063 --> 00:46:38.598
And, and like I said earlier, it's great
when you see people who previously were
00:46:38.598 --> 00:46:42.978
a little bit more AI shy or a little
like unconfident using those tools up
00:46:42.978 --> 00:46:46.668
with this whole prototype of like their,
the thing they've been working on.
00:46:46.878 --> 00:46:48.858
And then testing it with users as well.
00:46:49.248 --> 00:46:52.668
We had a sprint, uh, two weeks ago
on a, on a, on a product I can't talk
00:46:52.668 --> 00:46:56.628
about, but they, they literally, like
start of the week, we just, were were,
00:46:56.693 --> 00:47:00.018
we were jamming on ideas, we were
thinking about the specific use cases
00:47:00.678 --> 00:47:02.958
and then they turned it into prototypes
and tested it by the end of the week
00:47:02.958 --> 00:47:04.128
using this React Native prototype.
00:47:04.128 --> 00:47:05.418
It was fantastic to see.
00:47:05.808 --> 00:47:10.938
So it's, yeah, I, I, I really love
that, that level of, of quality and
00:47:10.998 --> 00:47:14.238
uh, and craft that we can get out
of that in, in such a short space
00:47:14.238 --> 00:47:15.558
of time is, is just phenomenal.
00:47:16.063 --> 00:47:18.853
Jonny: I do remember the, uh, we
used to do design sprints together
00:47:18.913 --> 00:47:20.173
in, out of the Sprint book.
00:47:20.203 --> 00:47:22.993
And just think the Sprint book now
is probably, you'd have to give it
00:47:22.993 --> 00:47:24.223
a little rewrite now, wouldn't you?
00:47:24.668 --> 00:47:27.268
James: I mean, it's, uh, you, you
got, you got Jake Knapp on speed dial.
00:47:27.268 --> 00:47:31.328
It's, uh, it, it, it's, it's,
it's what, 10 years old at least
00:47:31.328 --> 00:47:32.288
now, maybe a little bit more.
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:33.419
Jonny: More.
00:47:33.449 --> 00:47:35.279
I would, I would imagine
a bit more than 10 years.
00:47:35.279 --> 00:47:35.609
Yeah.
00:47:35.959 --> 00:47:36.319
Tom: Hmm.
00:47:36.398 --> 00:47:39.788
James: So yeah, I, I, I, I would
argue, yeah, it's definitely, I, I,
00:47:39.788 --> 00:47:43.688
like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back
to like paper prototyping necessarily.
00:47:43.928 --> 00:47:47.318
I actually, we, we, we did, sorry,
I'm, I'm off on tangent now, but as
00:47:47.318 --> 00:47:51.878
part of this, uh, of this sprint,
we, we did some, uh, some drawing
00:47:51.878 --> 00:47:54.468
in, um, in Figma, uh, in FigJam.
00:47:55.238 --> 00:47:58.928
And it's been such a long time since
I've done kind of like draw box, uh,
00:47:58.928 --> 00:48:02.558
you know, uh, wire framing that I
was like, I, I was going so slow, and
00:48:02.558 --> 00:48:03.788
I'm like, we only got eight minutes.
00:48:03.788 --> 00:48:04.448
Oh, crap.
00:48:04.658 --> 00:48:06.678
So instead, I just, I just
started prompting ChatGPT.
00:48:08.108 --> 00:48:09.608
I'm like, right, and this
is what I want to look like.
00:48:09.608 --> 00:48:13.358
And then, you know, give it me in this
wire frame, uh, styling, and then just
00:48:13.358 --> 00:48:15.278
dropped, dropped these, these images in.
00:48:15.278 --> 00:48:18.488
I'm like, then annotated them and
be like, this is what I'm thinking.
00:48:18.698 --> 00:48:21.938
Because it was quicker to do that than
me try and put a few boxes together,
00:48:22.328 --> 00:48:25.368
which I don't think speaks, uh,
volumes to my, uh, my skill in FigJam.
00:48:26.918 --> 00:48:30.728
no, it was, it was, it was, it was
really interesting to see that was the
00:48:30.728 --> 00:48:32.438
flow that I ended up going through.
00:48:33.818 --> 00:48:34.148
yeah.
00:48:35.155 --> 00:48:35.425
Tom: Yeah.
00:48:35.455 --> 00:48:36.235
Super interesting.
00:48:36.445 --> 00:48:41.185
I remember one of my takeaways from
your talk, James, was the, was the focus
00:48:41.185 --> 00:48:42.955
on shrinking the, the learning loop.
00:48:43.015 --> 00:48:47.125
And so everything you talked about
there, where the prototyping is in
00:48:47.125 --> 00:48:53.785
service of able to move faster and,
and shorten the time to help decide
00:48:53.785 --> 00:48:55.615
if a direction is one worth going in.
00:48:55.615 --> 00:48:58.165
And I think you've shared some
really interesting things about
00:49:00.385 --> 00:49:04.315
influenced content to inform the
product experiences as well that you're
00:49:04.315 --> 00:49:05.725
prototyping, which is really cool.
00:49:05.995 --> 00:49:09.145
I did have a follow up question
around all of this, which is, um,
00:49:09.925 --> 00:49:12.595
had to do that presentation again
now, or that walkthrough again now,
00:49:12.685 --> 00:49:15.235
like what, what are, what is the
slide or two that you would add?
00:49:15.265 --> 00:49:18.055
Like what are the, what has changed
since you gave that, because that must
00:49:18.055 --> 00:49:20.395
have been a couple of months ago now,
and I think a lot of the things you
00:49:20.395 --> 00:49:27.745
were showing seemed mature ish or like
they were sort of approaching maturity.
00:49:27.745 --> 00:49:33.055
But I'm, I'm curious if there's any
insights or new themes or new that you've
00:49:33.055 --> 00:49:34.735
reached now that you have that in place.
00:49:36.156 --> 00:49:37.506
James: Yeah, that's a, that's
a good question actually.
00:49:37.506 --> 00:49:41.376
I, I think that the core
value is definitely the same.
00:49:41.376 --> 00:49:45.186
It's, it is definitely the learning
loop, but I do think that we.
00:49:46.410 --> 00:49:49.440
The addition is definitely, there's
a greater depth of collaboration.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.770
Now, I think, uh, and we, I've talked
about it a little bit earlier on, but
00:49:52.770 --> 00:49:57.480
there's, there is definitely like this
expectation that these prototypes, whether
00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:01.620
it's a, a link shared or a video, they,
there is this expectation that they go
00:50:01.620 --> 00:50:05.670
along with either, you know, a feature
that you're building or like I was
00:50:05.670 --> 00:50:09.330
talking about in planning, like we, we
are expected as part of planning to share
00:50:09.330 --> 00:50:13.080
these prototype of what we're, and you
know, it is, it's understandable, but when
00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:19.800
you can't really explain what, uh, you
know, a a, a sort of non-deterministic,
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:26.220
UI is gonna do in a few, few screenshots,
it's really hard to get, get that across.
00:50:26.220 --> 00:50:30.450
Especially when you're talking all of
these, uh, strategy plans and proposals,
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:34.585
you know, they go through our, our
senior leadership and our C-suite and,
00:50:34.590 --> 00:50:37.050
and you know, it's what we're gonna
spend the next six months working on.
00:50:37.050 --> 00:50:39.510
You need to be concrete
on your bets, actually.
00:50:39.510 --> 00:50:41.490
You could end up wasting
six months essentially.
00:50:41.490 --> 00:50:45.660
So, yeah, it's, it's great that
they've been such a deeper point of
00:50:45.660 --> 00:50:48.480
collaboration where there's, yeah,
there's expectation now that they exist.
00:50:48.690 --> 00:50:51.330
And I can only imagine that, you know,
if we had this conversation in another
00:50:51.330 --> 00:50:54.150
two months, that would a only be deeper.
00:50:54.180 --> 00:50:57.420
And the other thing I would really like
to see when I'm starting to see a bit
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:01.860
of is the, the kind of handoff, and
I mean, I would expect it to be less
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:06.150
of a handoff and more of a handshake
experience between design engineering.
00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:10.440
we're already, uh, trying to play
around with how could we bring
00:51:10.740 --> 00:51:15.000
that react prototype into, uh, so
Figma code layers, for instance.
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.430
So, you know, for anyone that
hasn't seen the Config, uh, uh,
00:51:20.460 --> 00:51:22.730
demos, but like they've, they've
kind of brought Figma Make to the
00:51:22.730 --> 00:51:24.220
canvas, it looks really impressive.
00:51:24.510 --> 00:51:27.090
I think that it gives us a lot of ability.
00:51:27.210 --> 00:51:32.100
We, what we want to be able to do is,
know, connect all of the infrastructure
00:51:32.100 --> 00:51:36.000
that we've built, have it live on
the canvas, and then actually like
00:51:36.030 --> 00:51:40.950
a, Linear ticket or some kind of
like, say, like handover handshake
00:51:40.950 --> 00:51:43.410
would be, you drop that link in.
00:51:43.830 --> 00:51:46.980
And also it could be that it,
uh, you know, tells you what the
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:48.390
components are that have been used.
00:51:48.390 --> 00:51:49.590
It could give you a spec.
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:52.500
That's the kind of thing that
I would see as the next step.
00:51:52.890 --> 00:51:58.740
But equally the reverse, not just
how do designers make more code?
00:51:58.770 --> 00:52:02.670
How do we get engineers and product
managers getting into Figma, getting
00:52:02.670 --> 00:52:05.820
into those prototypes and then saying,
well actually we could do it like
00:52:05.820 --> 00:52:08.310
this duplicate boom, here's my idea.
00:52:08.670 --> 00:52:11.580
'cause I don't see a lot of, a lot
of that I see with products sometimes
00:52:11.580 --> 00:52:15.150
that they might grab your frame and
give you a rough idea or, or butcher
00:52:15.150 --> 00:52:16.110
it, whatever you wanna call it.
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:20.160
Um, but I do, I do, I I haven't
seen a lot of it from engineering
00:52:20.160 --> 00:52:21.660
where they would like design.
00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:26.370
Whereas I think if we could start
to bring this like experience where
00:52:26.370 --> 00:52:30.840
it is like a connection of code and
design, I would love to come and have
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:34.860
like a, a collab session, a jam with
engineers, with product managers.
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:35.520
I think that'd be great.
00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:38.850
So I think the next, you know, we, we
can have another chat in two months.
00:52:38.850 --> 00:52:43.410
I don't mind in two months I would love
to be selling you that not only are.
00:52:43.676 --> 00:52:48.026
Design utilising this to to, to,
know, shorten the learning loop.
00:52:48.266 --> 00:52:52.466
We're using it at a strategy level
to set vision and direction and the
00:52:52.466 --> 00:52:56.486
sense expectation that these artefacts
go along with, um, the actual,
00:52:56.516 --> 00:52:57.566
uh, features that we're building.
00:52:57.956 --> 00:53:00.566
I would love to say they're
not artefacts anymore.
00:53:00.566 --> 00:53:03.326
It's not, it's not just a thing that we
look at, it's a thing that we actually
00:53:03.356 --> 00:53:05.906
use that we visually collaborate on.
00:53:05.936 --> 00:53:09.026
That's the, the next sort
of step, in my opinion.
00:53:09.056 --> 00:53:11.876
That is certainly what I would
like to see more of at Monzo.
00:53:11.881 --> 00:53:14.546
But at the minute it's been really hard
'cause the, the tools don't really allow
00:53:14.546 --> 00:53:16.556
for that level of collaboration yet.
00:53:16.556 --> 00:53:19.076
You know, you don't have
multiplayer on, on, on, on Cursor
00:53:19.076 --> 00:53:20.006
or Claude Code for instance.
00:53:20.006 --> 00:53:24.206
So think that that would be a really
great, uh, piece if we can get it
00:53:24.206 --> 00:53:25.976
to work in the way I want it to.
00:53:26.036 --> 00:53:29.126
I, I definitely think there's layers
to that, a bit, bit of a amisu.
00:53:29.186 --> 00:53:32.936
I think we could quite easily
on a really small interaction.
00:53:33.236 --> 00:53:35.396
You, you don't need to go to
the depths of like pulling the
00:53:35.396 --> 00:53:38.006
entire, um, design prototype repo.
00:53:38.006 --> 00:53:41.726
You could just say, I want to play around
this interaction, and then you might have
00:53:41.726 --> 00:53:43.946
a few riffs off of that with other people.
00:53:44.876 --> 00:53:48.506
but yeah, I, I think that for the, um,
the sort of depths of where we want
00:53:48.506 --> 00:53:52.946
to go, um, with the design prototype,
I really do think it's about just
00:53:52.946 --> 00:53:54.146
trying to choose the right path.
00:53:54.146 --> 00:53:58.646
So if collaboration is the key element,
keep it light, keep it on the canvas.
00:53:58.946 --> 00:54:03.146
If building something that mimics the app
experience, we wanna test it with users.
00:54:03.176 --> 00:54:04.646
Do that in the React Native prototype.
00:54:05.066 --> 00:54:08.681
I think this, this is what I would like
to sort of see the progression of it be.
00:54:11.155 --> 00:54:15.175
Tom: You are, you're bullish on, on Figma
still having an important role to play or,
00:54:16.948 --> 00:54:17.128
James: yeah.
00:54:17.128 --> 00:54:17.578
sorry.
00:54:17.578 --> 00:54:17.968
Yeah.
00:54:17.968 --> 00:54:26.188
Um, yes, I am, uh, I went to Config
this year to say, what are you gonna
00:54:26.188 --> 00:54:27.928
do to make me open you every day?
00:54:28.348 --> 00:54:30.238
That, and like, I'll be
completely honest about that.
00:54:30.478 --> 00:54:34.078
I said it, I said it to a lot of people
because I wasn't, I was, I was purely,
00:54:34.078 --> 00:54:37.528
and again, I I, I do say this with a
caveat of, I have a very privileged
00:54:37.528 --> 00:54:41.938
position where I don't have to open
it to handover with a squad every day.
00:54:41.938 --> 00:54:45.538
So I, I do recognise that I still
think it is the predominant way that
00:54:45.538 --> 00:54:51.328
teams collaborate, but I was personally
not using it on a daily basis.
00:54:51.388 --> 00:54:56.128
And mostly only if I was going to kind
of play around with other people's
00:54:56.128 --> 00:55:00.208
work or, or butcher their work, uh, or
be trying to build something, I was,
00:55:00.208 --> 00:55:04.648
you know, mostly using it as a context
source for an agent of some sort.
00:55:05.428 --> 00:55:10.048
it was, I very much went to Config to
be like, what are you gonna do about it?
00:55:10.138 --> 00:55:14.158
And I, and I, and I, honestly, I do
think they popped up with a great answer
00:55:14.158 --> 00:55:20.278
because think at the minute, the, the
thing that cannot be matched is you
00:55:20.278 --> 00:55:25.528
still have, designer knows how to use
Figma and they know how to use a canvas.
00:55:25.528 --> 00:55:29.608
And that is their, like still their
primary sweet spot, their primary tool.
00:55:30.028 --> 00:55:35.098
So if you can then their skills
without them needing to leave the tool.
00:55:35.158 --> 00:55:37.408
'cause this has been one of the
adoption problems that I think
00:55:37.408 --> 00:55:38.608
every team has been facing.
00:55:38.608 --> 00:55:42.928
It's like, how do you get designers to
go and open an IDE to open the terminal,
00:55:43.918 --> 00:55:45.688
you know, and start, start hacking?
00:55:45.748 --> 00:55:47.158
Uh, how do you get 'em to do that?
00:55:47.608 --> 00:55:50.758
So the, it is quite clever that the way
they've done it with Figma is just that.
00:55:50.758 --> 00:55:52.048
Yeah, let's bring it to the Canvas.
00:55:52.053 --> 00:55:55.228
I, I don't think Figma Make was the thing,
I think when they built Figma Make, they
00:55:55.228 --> 00:55:59.518
were trying to stave off Lovable when
they've now thought about it properly.
00:56:00.148 --> 00:56:02.338
Sorry if anyone from Figma ISS
listening, but when they've, they've
00:56:02.338 --> 00:56:03.478
had a minute to think about it.
00:56:03.478 --> 00:56:07.168
And actually the thing that they really
need to stave off is not how do we
00:56:07.288 --> 00:56:08.878
keep up with these other no code tools.
00:56:08.878 --> 00:56:15.088
It's if people are gonna move to
work in an IDE to code first, how
00:56:15.088 --> 00:56:17.458
do we, how do we keep up with that?
00:56:17.458 --> 00:56:21.538
How do we make it that that can be done
where you, where you work in Figma with
00:56:21.538 --> 00:56:24.208
all of Figma other, uh, great features.
00:56:24.208 --> 00:56:28.378
So I think the collaboration aspect,
comments, annotation, you know, you can,
00:56:28.408 --> 00:56:32.128
you can even use of the Figma motion
piece, like I've been playing around
00:56:32.128 --> 00:56:37.353
with, with Figma Motion, bring it into a
component, drop that into a, into a, a,
00:56:37.358 --> 00:56:40.078
a prototype it all, it's all connective.
00:56:40.138 --> 00:56:40.858
Same with Weave.
00:56:40.858 --> 00:56:44.158
Like you've got that, um, the node
based tool, how it kinda connects
00:56:44.158 --> 00:56:47.308
things and if you change like the
source, it will update the whole piece.
00:56:47.308 --> 00:56:50.968
That's sort of what I
expect now from tool.
00:56:51.448 --> 00:56:54.748
Just, it's like, I think your
expectation just expands and you're
00:56:54.748 --> 00:56:58.588
sort of like, you know, if I was gonna
encode change a component, it would,
00:56:59.338 --> 00:57:00.778
propagate through the entire code base.
00:57:00.778 --> 00:57:04.618
So if I change a static component, it
should propagate through the whole thing.
00:57:04.618 --> 00:57:09.188
And so that applies to these,
um, to these code layers as well.
00:57:09.188 --> 00:57:11.578
And I think Figma Make didn't
really do that very well 'cause
00:57:11.578 --> 00:57:13.498
it was so detached from Figma.
00:57:13.558 --> 00:57:15.598
I think, you know, the same kind
of problem that they've had with.
00:57:15.964 --> 00:57:17.584
And insights and FigJam, et cetera.
00:57:17.584 --> 00:57:20.404
It wasn't on the core
product, the core canvas.
00:57:20.404 --> 00:57:23.584
So I, so I really do think that they've,
uh, they've come out fighting and
00:57:23.584 --> 00:57:27.754
I, it's certainly given me a reason
to open them and play around again.
00:57:27.784 --> 00:57:32.884
So I, I, and I do think for those
folks that are maybe less keen to
00:57:32.884 --> 00:57:37.354
open Claude Code or Cursor or whatever
you tool of choice is, it's a really
00:57:37.354 --> 00:57:39.664
great way to start learning things.
00:57:40.774 --> 00:57:43.804
'cause you, you can start to learn some
principles as well, like, you know,
00:57:43.984 --> 00:57:46.084
duplicate a frame, it's, it's a branch.
00:57:46.534 --> 00:57:49.504
How do I make edits and then
I, you know, I wanna save them.
00:57:50.134 --> 00:57:53.164
It's kinda like learning Sketch again,
you know, command S is, well, that's
00:57:53.164 --> 00:57:56.104
actually a commit, you know, you've gotta
sort to understand some of these things.
00:57:56.109 --> 00:58:00.544
Uh, I have spoke to the Figma team
and one of the things I said was, I
00:58:00.544 --> 00:58:06.094
understand the, the desire to, and I
don't mean dumb it down, but to sort
00:58:06.094 --> 00:58:08.734
of it more user friendly, friendly.
00:58:08.734 --> 00:58:10.684
I think auto layout is
a great example here.
00:58:11.044 --> 00:58:14.969
Also, layout is really easy to use, but
it does not help you understand Flexbox.
00:58:15.829 --> 00:58:19.774
In fact, I'd argue it makes it
even worse because you're like,
00:58:19.834 --> 00:58:21.514
hang on, I want it to be there.
00:58:21.574 --> 00:58:23.569
I've said flex-start,
and then it's over here.
00:58:24.549 --> 00:58:28.414
And so if they'd, if they'd have
taught, if they'd have found a way
00:58:28.444 --> 00:58:33.154
to talk, to teach people the auto
layout, how it actually connected to
00:58:33.154 --> 00:58:37.834
Flexbox, even with just like the subtle
label naming, maybe, that would've
00:58:37.834 --> 00:58:42.094
gone a long way from designers, you
know, seven years ago starting to use
00:58:42.094 --> 00:58:45.964
auto layout to now trying to figure
out what the hell flex start means.
00:58:46.175 --> 00:58:46.535
Jonny: Mm.
00:58:46.744 --> 00:58:46.894
James: I
00:58:46.925 --> 00:58:49.085
Jonny: Although James, it, it
doesn't matter 'cause no one's
00:58:49.085 --> 00:58:50.555
gonna read the code anymore, so.
00:58:50.682 --> 00:58:54.282
James: I mean, I mean you say that, but
Well, so, so this is, this is the other
00:58:54.282 --> 00:58:59.052
thing there that bothers a little bit that
bugs me, which I really think there needs
00:58:59.052 --> 00:59:03.642
to be a solution in Figma for, is that,
you know, if I, I, I do go in and I will
00:59:03.642 --> 00:59:08.502
make code and it's because sometimes not
necessarily won't work, but sometimes I'm
00:59:08.502 --> 00:59:13.752
token conscious and so I don't, I don't
wanna spend money just to move something
00:59:13.752 --> 00:59:16.092
from here to there when I know what to do.
00:59:16.332 --> 00:59:19.362
Same with like anything, if you want,
you know, you want it to understand,
00:59:20.352 --> 00:59:24.612
rounding or you set a specific tech size,
and then I understand they built the, the
00:59:24.612 --> 00:59:27.072
kind of, uh, inspect panel in, in Cursor.
00:59:27.282 --> 00:59:28.422
But that is clever.
00:59:28.422 --> 00:59:32.172
The way they did it was that
it still needs a, a, a pro,
00:59:32.202 --> 00:59:33.282
it just gives you a prompt.
00:59:33.492 --> 00:59:34.692
It doesn't actually change it.
00:59:35.142 --> 00:59:38.262
And it's, it, I say clever because they,
you know, they've, they've cashed in.
00:59:38.352 --> 00:59:41.142
But what, what bothers me
is I don't wanna do that.
00:59:41.142 --> 00:59:42.162
I don't wanna have to pay for that.
00:59:42.162 --> 00:59:44.802
And I, and I do think if there
was a little bit more of a
00:59:45.012 --> 00:59:47.022
habitual learning loop between
00:59:47.743 --> 00:59:48.133
Jonny: Hmm.
00:59:48.192 --> 00:59:52.452
James: doing and the code, it would be
a lot better for, for us as designers of
00:59:52.452 --> 00:59:53.982
how we're actually learning these things.
00:59:54.399 --> 00:59:54.669
Jonny: Yeah.
00:59:54.672 --> 00:59:57.252
James: think that's the, that has
been my feedback on code layers is
00:59:57.252 --> 01:00:00.192
like, how can you actually connect
what people are doing to how it
01:00:00.192 --> 01:00:02.022
really is working in the background?
01:00:02.022 --> 01:00:03.372
Like, how is it working with Git?
01:00:03.642 --> 01:00:06.012
'cause you know, you, you take a
designer through GitHub for the first
01:00:06.012 --> 01:00:07.692
time and they're like, what's a commit?
01:00:07.692 --> 01:00:08.322
What's a branch?
01:00:08.322 --> 01:00:10.722
What's a pr I don't, I don't get it.
01:00:10.782 --> 01:00:14.442
And then you start trying to like,
describe it as, you know, well, imagine
01:00:14.442 --> 01:00:17.862
I copy your file and I put it over
here and I do whatever I want with it.
01:00:18.342 --> 01:00:20.652
And it's, you know, you, you
try and go down those roads.
01:00:20.652 --> 01:00:23.532
So I, I really hope that they
take the opportunity to, to
01:00:23.532 --> 01:00:25.032
teach a little while, while
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:25.449
Jonny: Yeah.
01:00:26.109 --> 01:00:29.079
James, I'm pretty sure you brought
Abstract into, uh, Deliveroo
01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:31.749
back in the day when that was
the original for Sketch file.
01:00:31.809 --> 01:00:32.859
Uh, Sketch files.
01:00:32.859 --> 01:00:33.489
Yeah, Sketch files.
01:00:33.619 --> 01:00:34.069
Tom: Yeah.
01:00:34.899 --> 01:00:38.469
Jonny: What I think, um, let's
move on to the quickfire round
01:00:38.874 --> 01:00:39.174
James: Ooh.
01:00:39.579 --> 01:00:42.459
Jonny: and James Quickfire
is quickfire for a reason.
01:00:44.232 --> 01:00:45.817
James: I have no idea
what you're talking about.
01:00:47.601 --> 01:00:51.561
Jonny: Uh, so, uh, my, I, I
have, uh, a quick fire question
01:00:51.561 --> 01:00:52.611
and then I'll hand over to Tom.
01:00:53.061 --> 01:00:57.561
So, uh, last week we talked quite
a lot about managers and senior,
01:00:57.591 --> 01:01:01.971
senior designers burning out and
sort of feeling, feeling like they're
01:01:01.971 --> 01:01:05.796
behind on the tools and behind on the
craft, but also, and that that's an
01:01:05.796 --> 01:01:07.401
expectation of them all of a sudden.
01:01:07.761 --> 01:01:14.151
Um, any tip, tip or two for someone
who is in that position where they're
01:01:14.151 --> 01:01:17.271
like, I'm suddenly feeling like I
need to actually be designing again.
01:01:17.421 --> 01:01:18.981
I haven't designed for a little while.
01:01:19.341 --> 01:01:21.231
Uh, you know, how would
you get back into it?
01:01:22.972 --> 01:01:25.942
James: So you're sort of asking like
what's the the opposite to using AI?
01:01:27.442 --> 01:01:27.857
Is that the question?
01:01:28.063 --> 01:01:30.883
Jonny: I mean, I suppose this
is in a world where AI isn't
01:01:30.883 --> 01:01:31.843
gonna just do it for you.
01:01:32.053 --> 01:01:32.293
Yeah.
01:01:32.612 --> 01:01:33.002
James: Gotcha.
01:01:33.392 --> 01:01:37.592
Yeah, I, I mean, I think, I mean, it can
be nice to have a palate cleanse, right?
01:01:37.592 --> 01:01:41.822
I think that getting into a project
where AI isn't gonna do it for you,
01:01:42.122 --> 01:01:45.002
getting your head in, and that, if that
isn't possible at work, maybe something
01:01:45.032 --> 01:01:46.442
in, in your, in your personal work.
01:01:46.862 --> 01:01:50.102
I think just getting into something
that's like really design focused.
01:01:50.372 --> 01:01:52.832
You really wanna solve a problem
and you don't necessarily wanna
01:01:52.832 --> 01:01:54.692
think about how am I gonna build it?
01:01:54.722 --> 01:01:56.132
How, what's the end product?
01:01:56.462 --> 01:02:00.602
What, like, you just genuinely
get into some craft execution.
01:02:01.052 --> 01:02:03.122
Uh, I would call that like
a nice little pallet clean.
01:02:03.962 --> 01:02:07.832
And I, I honestly like, I mean, I, I
know I was talking about my holiday
01:02:07.832 --> 01:02:12.182
last week before we started recording,
but I did, I did build something, but
01:02:12.242 --> 01:02:16.052
it was a massively different thing,
complete pallet cleanse for me.
01:02:16.352 --> 01:02:18.662
It wasn't anything to do with work,
it wasn't anything to do with any
01:02:18.662 --> 01:02:19.892
of the projects I've got on the go.
01:02:20.162 --> 01:02:21.962
And it was just fun and I enjoyed it.
01:02:22.412 --> 01:02:27.842
Uh, and I think that for me is, is what
sometimes what you need, and it can stave
01:02:27.842 --> 01:02:29.522
off, stave off the burnout, I think.
01:02:29.522 --> 01:02:34.322
But equally, I know this is quick fire,
but equally, I think that put so much
01:02:34.322 --> 01:02:38.222
pressure on yourselves, like, you know,
just, just there's so much going on.
01:02:38.222 --> 01:02:43.442
Try and focus on the things that help
you and that improve your workflow and
01:02:43.442 --> 01:02:44.552
improve the things you are good at.
01:02:44.582 --> 01:02:48.512
Don't think about every tool that comes
in the market, just, you know, narrow.
01:02:49.791 --> 01:02:51.021
Jonny: Brilliant Tom.
01:02:52.697 --> 01:02:56.147
Tom: James, when AGI takes over
everything, what will you do
01:02:56.147 --> 01:02:56.912
with all of your free time?
01:02:58.406 --> 01:03:02.276
James: Oh, uh, well, you know, I actually,
I think we touched on it earlier.
01:03:02.336 --> 01:03:06.266
I would probably, still make
things like a hundred percent,
01:03:06.266 --> 01:03:07.316
I'd still be building stuff.
01:03:07.316 --> 01:03:13.376
But if you, I guess if you assume that
we have this, you know, uh, uh, greater
01:03:13.376 --> 01:03:18.326
than human intelligence where anything is
possible, so not just building software,
01:03:18.326 --> 01:03:23.276
building hardware, probably start going a
bit bit big on my, my project ambitions.
01:03:23.276 --> 01:03:26.456
Like, I don't know, start trying to
build like an Iron Man suit or something,
01:03:26.456 --> 01:03:30.956
or, or, or I dunno, a spaceship.
01:03:30.956 --> 01:03:31.916
Can I build a spaceship?
01:03:32.006 --> 01:03:32.216
Build,
01:03:32.383 --> 01:03:35.053
Jonny: So you, you were serious about
this robotics designer thing, eh?
01:03:35.216 --> 01:03:35.516
James: Yeah.
01:03:35.576 --> 01:03:37.016
I mean, like, but my, this is my point.
01:03:37.016 --> 01:03:40.916
If, if, if something more intelligent
than me and more and like, more
01:03:40.916 --> 01:03:44.811
impressive than what I can learn on,
on YouTube tells me what to do, I,
01:03:44.816 --> 01:03:46.526
I, I'll, I'll start building stuff.
01:03:46.526 --> 01:03:46.766
Yeah.
01:03:46.826 --> 01:03:49.211
I think that, I dunno, I'd
probably get divorced, but I,
01:03:50.511 --> 01:03:51.686
but I'd be building things.
01:03:51.686 --> 01:03:55.046
I, but then wife would be like, why
is there a spaceship in the garden?
01:03:55.046 --> 01:03:56.866
Well, AGI.
01:03:56.916 --> 01:03:57.236
AGI..
01:03:59.455 --> 01:04:03.145
Jonny: Related, but have you seen
this website MeatLayer where, um, you
01:04:03.145 --> 01:04:06.535
can sign up and it's like a Fiverr
or whatever, but agents can ask
01:04:06.535 --> 01:04:07.765
you to do things in the real world.
01:04:07.765 --> 01:04:13.765
So if an agent has to complete a task,
like post a letter, then it can pay you to
01:04:13.765 --> 01:04:17.035
go to the post office for it completely.
01:04:17.095 --> 01:04:18.415
Uh, you could do that.
01:04:18.475 --> 01:04:21.745
You could be, yeah, you
could, uh, you could be,
01:04:21.850 --> 01:04:22.360
James: meat.
01:04:22.645 --> 01:04:25.165
Jonny: yeah, be meat
for the agents anyway.
01:04:27.086 --> 01:04:27.536
James: Wow.
01:04:28.465 --> 01:04:32.575
Jonny: uh, I've got one more, uh, and
uh, and maybe we'll do, do one more each.
01:04:32.845 --> 01:04:36.805
Uh, so what is, it sounds
like you're a Figma bull.
01:04:36.925 --> 01:04:39.445
We've had some Figma bears
on, on this podcast as well.
01:04:39.805 --> 01:04:44.545
Um, aside from Figma, what is your
favourite product at the moment?
01:04:47.448 --> 01:04:52.008
James: Oh, I can tell you my most used
actually, and then probably favourite
01:04:52.008 --> 01:04:57.858
as well, but I, I've been using Hex,
uh, it's a dictation app, but I like
01:04:57.858 --> 01:05:01.518
it, which it's open source, so I managed
to like, on top of it, build some of
01:05:01.518 --> 01:05:04.378
the features that I wanted it to do,
to have, make it a bit more like Wispr
01:05:04.668 --> 01:05:05.958
Flow, but without having to pay for it.
01:05:06.138 --> 01:05:06.918
Sorry, Wispr Flow.
01:05:07.368 --> 01:05:10.008
Um, if you ever want the one that's
a sponsor, I've just killed that now.
01:05:10.008 --> 01:05:13.578
So, um, so that's definitely my
most used because, because I, I,
01:05:13.578 --> 01:05:15.798
I pretty much don't type anymore.
01:05:16.248 --> 01:05:22.968
Um, and I'd say favourite,
am I allowed to say Monzo?
01:05:22.968 --> 01:05:24.553
Is that, is that, is
that too much of a plug?
01:05:25.695 --> 01:05:28.395
Jonny: I mean, it's, it's a little
bit embarrassing, but you can say it.
01:05:28.793 --> 01:05:29.693
James: Oh, no, I know.
01:05:29.733 --> 01:05:32.688
I, I think, I think probably
Cursor is, is my, is my favourite.
01:05:32.688 --> 01:05:36.768
I, I genuinely, it's the first
thing I open in the morning, so I
01:05:36.768 --> 01:05:40.428
would say that would, that gives
you uh, of enough to know there.
01:05:42.419 --> 01:05:42.959
Tom: Fascinating.
01:05:43.439 --> 01:05:49.079
Um, one very niche specific question about
Monzo since we, I, I previously worked
01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:50.369
in Monzo, you are, you're at Monzo now.
01:05:50.549 --> 01:05:53.249
I'm curious what the best
AI themed Slack reaction is.
01:05:55.616 --> 01:05:57.836
James: Uh, there's some
really good ones actually.
01:05:57.836 --> 01:06:03.656
I, I would say it's really the, the,
the, uh, AI image game has really
01:06:03.656 --> 01:06:06.326
taken off in the last, like 12 months.
01:06:06.326 --> 01:06:09.446
And I think my joining has got
nothing to do with that whatsoever.
01:06:09.896 --> 01:06:10.766
Uh, but any,
01:06:10.875 --> 01:06:11.960
Tom: have, uh, led that charge.
01:06:12.806 --> 01:06:14.456
James: do, I do, I do enjoy it.
01:06:14.816 --> 01:06:17.396
Um, but I think anything that
gets created immediately gets
01:06:17.396 --> 01:06:18.566
turned into a Slack reaction.
01:06:18.566 --> 01:06:21.566
So I, I, there's some
really cracking ones.
01:06:21.626 --> 01:06:26.366
Uh, you, we've got our design system
lead, uh, Sam, who I'm sure you, you know
01:06:26.366 --> 01:06:30.926
very well, Tom, uh, and he is our sort
of resident apple, uh, expert as well.
01:06:31.226 --> 01:06:35.486
And he, he recently had a really big
milestone and uh, uh, at work and I, I
01:06:35.486 --> 01:06:40.346
turned him into a, um, a sort of Sam Jobs
character, uh, you know, get good old.
01:06:40.826 --> 01:06:43.196
I think I might have done that to
you one, uh, back in the day as
01:06:43.196 --> 01:06:45.026
well, Jonny, the old Silicon Valley,
01:06:45.279 --> 01:06:45.819
Jonny: I think so.
01:06:45.819 --> 01:06:48.819
I think we were both in, yeah, we
were both in this, in that poster
01:06:48.896 --> 01:06:49.616
James: The hair, I
01:06:49.629 --> 01:06:49.929
Jonny: moment.
01:06:49.946 --> 01:06:50.366
James: hair.
01:06:50.829 --> 01:06:50.949
Jonny: Yeah.
01:06:51.236 --> 01:06:54.776
James: but yeah, so I did that
and, and now there is a, a Sam Jobs
01:06:54.776 --> 01:07:00.296
reaction, so anything re remotely
Apple related gets, gets the Sam Jobs.
01:07:00.326 --> 01:07:02.636
And there's, there's a, there's a
few other really good ones, but yeah,
01:07:02.906 --> 01:07:06.956
I've got an entire folder, like just
like AI, slop images, basically.
01:07:08.051 --> 01:07:10.751
Tom: What and what, what your,
what is your tool stack of choice
01:07:10.751 --> 01:07:12.341
when generating such memes?
01:07:13.276 --> 01:07:14.476
James: That's a good question actually.
01:07:14.601 --> 01:07:19.786
I, I found a lot of joy with
ChatGPT actually recently I tried,
01:07:19.846 --> 01:07:23.176
I had a, a whole Gemini period
'cause I thought Nano Banana was
01:07:23.176 --> 01:07:25.096
pretty good when it first started.
01:07:25.096 --> 01:07:30.616
But I tend to find the, the drift on
Nano Banana now is like really wide.
01:07:30.676 --> 01:07:33.406
You can sometimes get really
good output and sometimes awful.
01:07:33.436 --> 01:07:36.496
Uh, whereas I think it's a little tighter
on ChatGPT you might sometimes need a
01:07:36.496 --> 01:07:41.056
couple of revisions, but I also think
the UX on ChatGPT image generation
01:07:41.056 --> 01:07:45.076
has got a lot better because you can
describe more specific, uh, edits.
01:07:45.076 --> 01:07:47.986
You can obviously use circle and annotate
and things like that and you can, if
01:07:47.986 --> 01:07:52.636
you, if it wildly misses, which it really
frequently does, if it wildly misses
01:07:52.636 --> 01:07:55.906
the reference photo for instance, you
can drop it back in and say, no, this,
01:07:57.046 --> 01:08:01.126
and there's, yeah, I dunno why, but
whenever I do a picture of of, of me and
01:08:01.126 --> 01:08:02.746
others, everyone else comes out great.
01:08:02.746 --> 01:08:04.786
And I, I, I look like
some kind of burnt cake.
01:08:05.146 --> 01:08:09.886
Uh, so it's, I'm not entirely
sure what's going on there.
01:08:09.916 --> 01:08:13.186
I think it's how to get me, they're
trying to reduce my token, uh, usage.
01:08:14.623 --> 01:08:16.908
Jonny: Well, if we clip one thing from
this podcast, James, that'll be it.
01:08:17.500 --> 01:08:18.760
James: The The burnt cake.
01:08:18.820 --> 01:08:19.625
Oh, surely not.
01:08:22.107 --> 01:08:22.347
Jonny: No,
01:08:22.931 --> 01:08:23.381
Tom: Amazing.
01:08:24.117 --> 01:08:25.347
Jonny: you said some good stuff.
01:08:25.347 --> 01:08:28.377
I'm sure we'll find something to
clip that eclipses the burnt cake.
01:08:28.617 --> 01:08:31.047
Um, right.
01:08:31.417 --> 01:08:31.627
Tom: Let's
01:08:31.767 --> 01:08:33.687
Jonny: think, uh, I think,
I think that's wrap.
01:08:33.747 --> 01:08:38.877
Uh, James, thank you so much for
joining us and, um, really excited
01:08:38.877 --> 01:08:43.347
to see what you continue to build
at Monzo and keep pushing AI
01:08:43.347 --> 01:08:44.817
forward and all that kind of stuff.
01:08:45.207 --> 01:08:48.147
London is a fintech capital and
we've had two fintechs so far.
01:08:48.357 --> 01:08:49.437
We'll probably continue.
01:08:49.437 --> 01:08:53.607
So, um, uh, great work there and,
uh, thanks everyone for tuning
01:08:53.607 --> 01:08:56.037
in and we'll see you next time.
01:08:57.566 --> 01:08:57.956
James: Awesome.
01:08:57.956 --> 01:08:58.526
Thanks both.
01:08:58.586 --> 01:08:59.396
Really appreciate it.
01:09:01.136 --> 01:09:01.346
Bye.