#97 | Courage to Embrace Every Identity: LGBTQ Ally Guidance from Dr. Ronnie Gladden

Host
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Welcome back to Just Breathe.

Host
00:00:08
I am really happy you are here today, and I'm just grateful you've taken a few minutes out of your busy schedule to listen in.

Host
00:00:19
And I cannot tell you how excited I am for you to listen to the conversation that I got to have with this absolutely extraordinary human being.

Host
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And I learned so much, and I know that you are going to, too.

Host
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And there were just a million questions that I had.

Host
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So, as you listen, I'd love to know if there are other questions that come up for you, because I certainly feel like this is a guest that I will have back again and would love to just continue exploring just everything that they know and who they are and what they're doing in this world.

Host
00:01:07
So I just want to give you a quick.

Host
00:01:09
A quick bio, a quick background on my wonderful, wonderful guest, whose name is Ronnie Gladden.

Host
00:01:18
Dr.

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Ronnie Gladden.

Host
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They are an international speaker, an actor, and tenured college professor.

Host
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They regularly speak about identity, diversity, and inclusion for K12 schools, universities, and nonprofits, including the Ronald McDonald House Charities, the City of Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky University, and more.

Host
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They hold a doctorate in educational leadership from Northern Kentucky University, where they defended and published a dissertation on diversity, leadership, and intersectionality.

Host
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Dr.

Host
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Ronnie also appeared in the Rachel Divide, a documentary about complex identity, which premiered at the Tribeca film festival in 2018 and now streams on Netflix.

Host
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One of the things that Dr.

Host
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Ronnie and I got to talk about and that you will get to hear us talk about, but I want you to run out and not even run out and buy click on Amazon and order it today.

Host
00:02:20
Their book, which is called White Girl within, is one of the best books I've read this year.

Host
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And I absolutely.

Host
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I learned so much from this book.

Host
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I was so moved.

Host
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And it really also encouraged me to do some very introspective thinking and to really look at myself and who I am in this world.

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So I encourage you right now.

Host
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There will also be a link, as always, in the show notes that are attached to this.

Host
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But without further ado, I want to introduce Dr.

Host
00:03:04
Ronnie Glad.

Heather Hester
00:03:17
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:03:30
My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester
00:03:34
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:03:44
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:04:01
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Host
00:04:19
So, Ronnie, welcome.

Host
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Welcome to the show.

Host
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I'm so happy that you're here, and I am.

Host
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I've been so looking forward to this interview and this chat with you.

Host
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And I have about a million and one questions that I want to ask and things that I just think are so unique and thought provoking about what you do and who you are and the barriers that you have broken.

Host
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And I'd really love to start with talking about your book, which is called White Girl within, which, if that's not an intriguing enough title, I mean, come on.

Host
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Yeah, so, I mean, just so fascinating.

Host
00:05:04
So I'd love to know, just kind of to start off, just some background on what brought you to writing that book and what made you really realize and start to embrace all of these different pieces about you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:05:21
So I had an identity crisis.

Ronnie Gladden
00:05:25
I was in my partner's house, and for whatever reason, I just had a lot of emotions all flood me at one time.

Ronnie Gladden
00:05:38
And at the time, she was a resident to become a doctor, so she was already psychologically oriented.

Ronnie Gladden
00:05:46
And she had friends that also were older than us, and they were mental health professionals as well.

Ronnie Gladden
00:05:54
So we had a unique sort of support system that was there, but she wasn't even in the house.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:00
I was just there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:02
And I had this.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:04
It almost felt like a looming deadline of sorts to try to get a handle over the fullness of my authenticity.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:14
And so I don't know if I was spurred along in part because of the new partnerships and people that I had in my life, along with just reflecting from issues of my childhood.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:25
So what happened is I just started writing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:27
There was a notebook that was nearby, pretty small notebook, and I'm welling up with tears, and I'm just, like, writing out this situation about what.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:38
What I was.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:39
And this is late 2000s, so there wasn't quite the cultural vocabulary like it is now with respect to Cisco and hetero and gender fluid and trans and whatnot.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:52
I mean, those terms certainly existed, but, you know, they weren't as accessible like they are today.

Ronnie Gladden
00:06:59
And I hadn't yet started to contextualize on that in a.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:03
In a doctoral program yet.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:05
So I'm just writing from a very instinctive place.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:08
So just being flooded with emotions and just having this reckoning that, you know, I'm in this relationship and there are things that are certainly about.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:18
About it that I like and we're good for each other.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:20
But at the same time, like most people, I think realize when you're in a relationship, there's no hiding.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:29
You are confronted with yourself just as much as you're confronted with the person that is your plus one.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:38
And because I hadn't done a lot of the work that maybe more people had done growing up being hetero or just being more.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:47
Just owning whatever their identity is in the first place, and me not doing that, I grew up acting, I grew up performing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:54
So it was like I was grappling with what I naturally was.

Ronnie Gladden
00:07:57
And then when I was animated, I'm portraying other people.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:02
So there's yet again another diversion.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:04
So a lot of the work that most people would do growing up, I hadn't done.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:11
And it was like being super late on this big homework assignment, so to speak.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:17
And so that's.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:19
That's what ended up happening.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:21
And it's just like the subconscious took over.

Ronnie Gladden
00:08:23
It just started just writing.

Host
00:08:27
I love that.

Host
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The whole free writing, free writing idea, right?

Host
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And just allowing.

Host
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Oh, my goodness.

Host
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So I think that's fascinating because I think that that's something that I know from.

Host
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For me personally, I didn't do any of that work growing up either.

Host
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I think it kind of depends on, you know, kind of where you.

Host
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What type of family you grow up in and where you grow up.

Host
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And, you know, obviously so many pieces that come together to create that.

Host
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And I'm just wondering, as you did that work and as you wrote, that started writing and which ended up being letters, right?

Host
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That's part of.

Host
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Part of your work, right.

Host
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And part of what you teach is writing these letters.

Host
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What did you, you know, kind of what were the things that really started coming up that you were able to say, oh, okay, this, like the light bulb moments.

Host
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What were those?

Ronnie Gladden
00:09:24
I think it was the light bulb moments were like shining a light on what otherwise was siloed or was basically in the shadow.

Ronnie Gladden
00:09:37
So whatever it is that I had to repress, because it's like, here it is born in the body of a black male and having certain expectations that go along with that, a very narrow set of expectations.

Ronnie Gladden
00:09:54
And a lot of us have that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:09:55
But because of being a minority and a minority within a minority, I think I felt perhaps even more of the weight of what it was like to be marginalized.

Ronnie Gladden
00:10:08
And so therefore, I had to find a way to exist with that, but then to take what otherwise was repressed and find a way to put it someplace, wherever.

Ronnie Gladden
00:10:23
Wherever that is, and work with abstractions.

Ronnie Gladden
00:10:26
So in writing it was like I was able to tap into those abstractions, so to speak about how I really felt my hair was supposed to be, as opposed to substituting for a hairstyle that maybe had a little bit of a tweak or nuance to it that would allow for me to convey some originality.

Ronnie Gladden
00:10:49
And in doing that, that was me trying to have a bit of an approximation of what I would do if I had the full license or felt that I had the full license to express myself, but only just a little bit.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:02
Whatever was repressed, suppressed, oppressed, it was like, let me draw it out through words.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:10
So it's like words and pictures coming together.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:12
So let me create a portraiture or try to begin to find a portraiture of what the, this internalized white female might look like.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:24
So let me try to approximate the weight, the height, the bone structure, the hair, the eyes.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:30
Let me try to approximate her voice.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:33
Let me try to approximate what she would do if she actually could be in three dimensional form and what have you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:44
So it was like trying to, to sketch a portraiture and to get caught up with a lot of lost time and trying to shed light on that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:11:54
And obviously at the time, with so many emotions, you know, it wasn't intellectual at all.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:00
It was, it was pure emotion.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:02
So it was, it was, it was what ultimately wound up being an approximation of the repressed voice.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:12
So it's like trying to work with conscious dialogue, black male, subconscious dialogue, internal white female, against unconscious dialogue.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:24
That's maybe a little bit of the two.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:27
And then trying to approximate what those voices are like pitted against, I guess, unconscious dialogue and perspective of society.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:38
So, you know, so once I thought more about it, then I could articulate it in that way.

Ronnie Gladden
00:12:42
But at the time it was just trying to disentangle all these different voices and just trying to just get out of my head and get these emotions out.

Host
00:12:55
Right.

Host
00:12:56
Well, and, and once you were able to do that, well, first of all, how long did that take you to do?

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:03
I started that penning it like I was describing in 2008, and the book was just published in January 2023.

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:15
So off and on, not the entire time, because there was time I lost the book and moved and all that, but off and on it's been about a 15 year process.

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:27
So it's been a big chunk of my life.

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:30
And I had no idea, wow, it would take that long.

Host
00:13:35
Well, I'm sure not.

Host
00:13:36
At what point did they begin to.

Host
00:13:38
Were you able to begin to kind of like see the intersection and, and kind of Begin to make a flow of who you are as a whole person.

Host
00:13:48
Right.

Host
00:13:49
All these pieces were you able to kind of be able to pull together?

Host
00:13:53
And does that make sense, what I'm asking?

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:57
Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden
00:13:58
Two years before that, starting the pennant, I did go to counseling for the first time.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:09
But at the time I was down and I just felt like my career, because I was very new in my career.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:15
You know, I just launched my teaching career and I was glad to do that, but, you know, I wasn't teaching in the way that I had envisioned.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:23
I started out teaching college in this little strip mall.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:25
It was like one of those for profit colleges.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:27
And it just, you know, at first it was exciting, but then like two years in, it's like, all right, what am I doing?

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:33
So it was more of a, you know, feeling dissatisfied with the lack of the career, even though it was starting.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:42
But pretty quickly in the sessions, the identity identity came out, which I did not expect to do.

Ronnie Gladden
00:14:50
I just thought I was having a quarter life crisis based on a lack of career gusto or the career taking off.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:01
And then that came out.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:03
I'm like, I couldn't believe that I had shared that with anyone.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:06
It was like, because that was with me since I was 4 years old.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:09
And I just thought, this is just something I'll just take to the grave and just deal with it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:14
But it came out then.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:15
So I think that helped because there were some articles that the psych resident gave.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:21
One of them was interesting because I had mentioned Michael Jackson before because that was like a kind of obvious approximation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:28
Even though, you know, on record Jackson affirmed his blackness and never came out as trans.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:36
But for me it was just like, here's someone that started out with a similar phenotype, a similar look, and they modified it and then got to a totally different continuum, you know, a different appearance on the identity continuum.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:54
So it's like, well, that is something that's.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:56
I can approximate.

Ronnie Gladden
00:15:57
So the psych resident gave me this article, why Michael Jackson's Nose Makes Us Uneasy.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:04
That that's the title.

Host
00:16:06
Oh my gosh.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:07
Yeah, that was.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:09
That's the literal title.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:10
And I ended up.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:11
And it's a really good article.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:12
I ended up citing some of it in my doctoral dissertation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:16
But that's the literal title of it and it talks about they were really harsh on him, even though he had already come out with his vitiligo.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:24
They said, here's someone with a mutilated consciousness and that was extrapolated to his face and he's trying to escape his materiality.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:34
It was.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:34
It was really, really scathing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:37
But, you know, in some ways I saw myself in that maybe there are some things that are mutilated, perhaps.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:47
I don't know.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:48
I just know that that's still my authentic truth.

Ronnie Gladden
00:16:52
So that article helped in a way to begin to craft language and to begin to put a framework around this and conceptualize it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:00
And so I had some of that two years prior.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:04
So there was a little bit of a foregrounding.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:08
And then it just so happened I met a doctor, and then that doctor, like I said, had friends that were psychologically oriented.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:14
So there were some discussions with that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:17
And then shortly after, I entered into a doc program, so I could then begin to really, to interrogate this against the backdrop of an academic and began to create a lit review and fine literature and all this.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:35
So then it just started to flow.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:37
And then it just so happened.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:38
Right as that was happening, then more of that cultural vocabulary was starting to show up, you know, in the world.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:46
So then there's like this reinforcement.

Ronnie Gladden
00:17:48
So it's almost odd that there was all of this kind of cultural and social backing, if you will, with what I was trying to work with as well as other people too, as I'm beginning to really work to contextualize this.

Ronnie Gladden
00:18:04
So I guess I lucked out that way.

Ronnie Gladden
00:18:08
So that's kind of a little bit of the background.

Host
00:18:12
Well, I think it's so fascinating, I think, to that.

Host
00:18:15
But that last point too, that when you're able to.

Host
00:18:20
And I just would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, but it sounds like being able to see yourself or see pieces of yourself in society, right?

Host
00:18:29
Whether it's other people or whether it's books or movies or tv, whatever it is.

Host
00:18:34
What.

Host
00:18:34
Pick your.

Host
00:18:35
Right.

Host
00:18:35
But being able to see yourself or pieces of yourself, that was helpful.

Ronnie Gladden
00:18:43
That was extremely helpful because it's like, at one level, who, who thinks this, like, you know, you appear to me as a white woman, and if you told me or you went around saying that I really have this insistent, consistent, persistent feel or pull towards being a black man.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:10
I mean, most folks, they're going to laugh you under the table.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:13
Other folks are going to be highly offended and saying, here's there's someone that's appropriating certain culture and whatnot, how dare she do that?

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:27
And I get there's pain points around this.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:30
And this is not to excuse that, this is not to ignore that whatsoever, because that absolutely needs to be dealt with.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:41
That's a part of the reconciliation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:43
Yet at the same time, you know, I don't think that we have to necessarily be beholden to what our ancestors did.

Ronnie Gladden
00:19:52
Like, we are an amalgamation of people that have crossed over to where we are today, and they did that, but in so doing that they live their lives and we're here.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:05
And I honor.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:06
I acknowledge the.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:08
The heritage.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:09
I've got some, you know, East Indian and black and all that, and some white.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:14
You know, I acknowledge all of what came before me, but this is still my time, my life, in terms of what I'm doing with it, what I make of it, what kinds of imprints are on me.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:26
And I think that there's a need to acknowledge that, and I think all of us can have that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:30
So.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:31
But, yeah, I mean, if you were to present the opposite way, it's like, who.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:35
Who does that?

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:36
But human diversity is broad, and a lot of things aren't always talked about, a lot of things aren't always convenient.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:44
And yet here we are doing it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:46
Like you said, we're doing it so we can just breathe.

Ronnie Gladden
00:20:49
You can breathe, I can breathe, everyone else can breathe and recognize there are things that are inconvenient and improbable, but it doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Host
00:21:00
Correct.

Host
00:21:01
Correct.

Host
00:21:01
And that it doesn't exist.

Host
00:21:03
I love that you use the word to honor.

Host
00:21:07
Right?

Host
00:21:07
To honor what came before and be the, you know, step into our fullness while we are here.

Host
00:21:16
Why?

Host
00:21:16
Why are we here?

Host
00:21:18
And I just think that I really.

Host
00:21:25
I love.

Host
00:21:25
I love everything that you're doing.

Host
00:21:27
I have, like, a million things that are running through my head right now, but I appreciate so much the fact that you have been and are being so transparent and so authentic about your process.

Host
00:21:41
And there is something in that that gives others.

Host
00:21:48
Gives anyone who listens, anyone who knows you, anyone who reads your works, the permission to, like, take a step back and be like, oh, like, there is.

Host
00:22:01
I feel like there's, you know, there's such a huge conversation right now about, you know, the binary versus a spectrum.

Host
00:22:07
Right?

Host
00:22:08
And it's so clear with any kind of, you know, research, education that it is a spectrum, and it is a beautiful spectrum.

Host
00:22:18
And so the fact that you can speak to that and give such.

Host
00:22:23
I don't know, my.

Host
00:22:24
I keep going back to this word permission, but I.

Host
00:22:26
I just feel like it's, you know, to other people, to kids.

Host
00:22:28
I just keep thinking about, like, these kids because I do talk to so many parents of, you know, teenagers and young adolescents who are, like, just kind of being able to articulate these different things that they're seeing in themselves.

Host
00:22:42
Right.

Host
00:22:43
And they're feeling.

Host
00:22:44
And I just love that there's a role model in you and that you have been so beautifully able to articulate.

Host
00:22:53
And I.

Host
00:22:54
I think that is such a goodness you are meant to be here.

Host
00:23:00
Like, this is like such a.

Host
00:23:02
Just your voice was meant.

Host
00:23:03
Like you were just guided.

Host
00:23:04
And the people that have been put in your life at the right time.

Host
00:23:07
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:23:08
I just think it's really one of those cool things.

Host
00:23:11
When just listening to it, I'm like, yeah, those people were totally meant to be there at that time.

Host
00:23:16
Like, that was the right person at the right time to allow you the space to do what you needed to do and kind of step into that next phase of being.

Host
00:23:28
And so, bravo.

Host
00:23:31
There was really not a question in there.

Host
00:23:33
It's just more of a thank you, an acknowledgement.

Host
00:23:38
But I.

Host
00:23:39
You talk a lot about.

Host
00:23:42
One of the things, actually that you talk about in your book is how true identity.

Host
00:23:47
And there's some speaking about the intersectionality.

Host
00:23:52
Right.

Host
00:23:52
But there's also talking about how identity transcends that intersectionality.

Host
00:23:58
Right.

Host
00:23:59
And I'd love to talk about both, so you can pick which one you want to talk about first.

Host
00:24:05
But I think both of those topics are so first of all, not understood well.

Host
00:24:10
And second of all, I'd just love to hear kind of your thoughts on them.

Host
00:24:15
So how about if we go with intersectionality first?

Host
00:24:18
Because I think that is a word that you, you know, you see, you maybe read in an article or whatever, but maybe don't completely understand what that means.

Host
00:24:28
So if you could talk about that a little bit and then we'll go to the second part.

Ronnie Gladden
00:24:32
Absolutely.

Ronnie Gladden
00:24:33
So just to put it plain, my take on intersectionality is putting all of your parts together, your ancestry, your whatever makes you a minority or doesn't make you a minority, put your religion, put your zip code, put what you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:24:57
Where you work, your education, no education, if you graduated agitated, whatever it is, and you put it all in the conversation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:05
So, like when we were talking about my ancestral lineage, there is that I honor it, but then there's also how I see myself and need to function in this time that I'm given.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:19
It's like I'm putting that in conversation with what came before me.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:24
At first I thought I would need to try to erase it or superimpose something else on top of that, to be accepted or to exist.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:36
But now I realize it's a conversation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:39
And I think that for other folks, if you are to look at what is inside of you that makes you diverse.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:49
And maybe look at your.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:51
Some of your parts on the outside, and there could be a difference between the inner and the outer.

Ronnie Gladden
00:25:57
But if you were to put that in the conversation, rather than masking it with hair dye and antiseptics and sprays and braces and Botox and whatever it is, or Michael Kors or Gucci or whatever, but actually put it in a conversation, embrace the diversity living inside of us in order to embrace the diversity living outside of us.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:18
If we did that, that's like a full expression, in my view of the intersection.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:24
Intersectionality is trying to find a way for all of the disparate parts to work well, and it does make us who and what we are.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:36
I mean, I know a little about you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:38
I know that I believe you are an American and you're a woman, and you are podcaster, and you have an audience that, you know our LGBTQ plus parents.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:52
I mean, just right there, those are some of your intersections.

Ronnie Gladden
00:26:55
And perhaps those are among the parts that work very well because you've put them in a conversation and you're generating impact.

Ronnie Gladden
00:27:05
And I think all of us have that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:27:06
All of us have various points of ourselves that make up the intersection, and we're able to do it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:27:14
But there are things that may need more work, and a part of what's in the book are those parts that need more work, a better conversation, better integration.

Ronnie Gladden
00:27:25
So, yeah, so the intersectionality is trying to find the conversation with all of the various parts of our identities, if that makes sense.

Host
00:27:34
It does, very much so.

Host
00:27:36
It's that idea of and.

Host
00:27:39
Right.

Host
00:27:39
Instead of but.

Host
00:27:41
Or like the, like, oh, I really hate that part.

Host
00:27:44
So trying to, like, you know, stuff it down or cross it out or erase.

Host
00:27:48
Erase it.

Host
00:27:49
Like you said, it's the, like, embracing it and being like, well, that's part of who I am.

Host
00:27:54
Right?

Host
00:27:54
That's.

Host
00:27:55
It's an.

Host
00:27:55
And.

Host
00:27:56
These are all ands.

Host
00:27:57
So when you bring it all together, you can.

Host
00:28:04
Right, you have.

Host
00:28:05
You can be.

Host
00:28:06
That's how you can be truly authentically in the world.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:11
That's right.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:12
So if.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:12
If we all had a proverbial calculator and we're typing up all of what makes us what we are, it's like we're separating it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:23
We get all the computational elements that make us what we are, our age or weight, where we live, like I said, all these parts, we add it up, and then we start to see the equation.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:34
For some folks, they're able to do the math a lot easier than others.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:40
And most Folks struggle with math, so that should tell you something.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:44
Right, right there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:28:45
So it's a work in progress.

Host
00:28:48
It definitely is.

Host
00:28:50
It definitely is.

Host
00:28:50
Well, and I think there's definitely, I would say probably most people have pieces that have been stuffed down and shelved or whatever you want to say.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:00
Especially now, especially now when just as we are having more emergent voices and legislation that recognizes this and even ascending to a protected class in some ways, then you see the, the pendulum, you know, shift the other way.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:21
And, and so that, that makes it confusing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:23
You know, a lot of hard fought victories, you know, marriage equality, all these things that really are just a handful of years old that quickly is almost always.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:37
Well, not always, but perhaps in jeopardy.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:40
Now there are some things that have happened federally to codify marriage, but in terms of other parts that grow out of that, you know, trans identity, there's no equality act.

Ronnie Gladden
00:29:52
Just to think that some of those things are hanging in the balance after just getting to a point of more full humanity.

Ronnie Gladden
00:30:00
It's kind of boggle because that's a really short amount of time.

Host
00:30:04
It really is.

Host
00:30:05
I mean, and I, it's a little dizzying.

Host
00:30:09
I mean, I feel like it's like almost it was such a quick, like, snap back that.

Host
00:30:16
Because there are still people who will say to me, well, it's so much better now.

Host
00:30:19
And I'm like, well, but it's not, you know.

Host
00:30:23
Yes.

Ronnie Gladden
00:30:24
And in some ways, but it should be, we should be advancing and not struggling to get back to where we thought we had just graduated from, you know.

Host
00:30:36
Right.

Host
00:30:36
Well, and I think too, I mean, I'm sure you, you do the same where I, you know, following all the bills across the country that are being, you know, proposed and then argued and.

Host
00:30:47
Right.

Host
00:30:48
Like there are more every week and.

Host
00:30:52
Right.

Host
00:30:52
So to me, like, that's not okay.

Host
00:30:58
That's where everybody, we have to all stay so vigilant and figure out what to do.

Host
00:31:05
I feel like that's also a big thing and perhaps you can shed some light on that, our thoughts on what people can do.

Host
00:31:11
Because I feel like especially a lot of, you know, I work with parents.

Host
00:31:15
Right, A lot of parents, but her allies, right.

Host
00:31:19
So allies a lot of times are like, well, how do I help?

Host
00:32:18
Because I feel like I'm not, you know, there's that respectful piece of, I'm not part of the community, I'm a support person and I want to do something.

Host
00:32:30
And I've had this, and we talked just briefly about this earlier, but you know, I do always love doing different things for Pride Month.

Host
00:32:38
But this year I'm kind of approaching it.

Host
00:32:40
I'm feeling very much like there's just such a battle right now.

Host
00:32:44
And there's so much, like, the energy around it is like, I want to acknowledge and celebrate, but I'm also like, how can.

Host
00:32:52
Like, we can't really stop to celebrate right now because there's so much that needs to be focused on and thought and people need to be educated on what is going on.

Host
00:33:05
So, sorry, that was a total rant, but I'd love your thoughts on all of that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:33:11
Sure.

Ronnie Gladden
00:33:12
And just to finish up the last part about transcending the intersectionality, what I would add to that is, at the end of the day, and this does dovetail into what you just also brought up too, in terms of what one can do, you have to really be careful not to be consumed with the politics.

Ronnie Gladden
00:33:38
Like, you don't want your identity to be lost in that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:33:43
Yes, we need to be vigilant, and there's some political savvy that you need.

Ronnie Gladden
00:33:47
And you need to know how to, I think, work through the mechanics, legislative mechanics, cultural mechanics, whatever it is, so that you can see certain bills change, certain spaces out in the community change.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:01
But recognize that as you're working through those mechanics, they're just that you don't want to get ground up in it or lost in that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:11
Because it is a lot of work, as we're saying, to work on identity.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:15
You know, just nine months.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:16
It takes us, most of us, to be born.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:20
We have some preemies, they come a little earlier, so they're accelerated.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:24
But it takes a lifetime, right.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:27
To draw the full person out of the baby, to draw the full woman out of when you were the infant, the full non binary, trans, transracial person.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:37
That's me out of this.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:38
I mean, it takes a lifetime for that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:40
So it's delicate.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:42
So it's this balance of having political savvy, but also personal allegiance to your own identity.

Ronnie Gladden
00:34:48
Meaning that you don't have to act stereotypically or act a certain way just because you may be a part of the Alphabet community, as some may try to just, you know, pejoratively say, you can.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:01
You can be an original still, you can defy the stereotype.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:07
You know, if you're gay guy and you really like Cheetos and steak and you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:13
And you like to hunt, you can still be gay.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:17
You don't all of a sudden have to be in the musicals or what have you, just because you think that's politically expedient or whatever.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:24
It Is so it's like, as you're working with the politics, that's why I say don't.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:28
Don't let that eclipse you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:30
Like, like still be you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:31
Now, if you do, like the musicals, that's fine too.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:33
I graduated from an art school.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:34
That's fine.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:35
But I know that there's more plurality in that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:38
So I offer that when it comes to what people can do, I still think even if you're not in the community, that that's the thing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:46
Meaning you may not be the L, the G, the B or the T, but if you're an ally, then you are still a part of the community.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:54
So.

Ronnie Gladden
00:35:54
So if you're an ally and think, well, I'm not really in the community, I think that's right there almost speaking to a kind of rift in a way that it's already starting a little bit, even though that I'm sure it's unintended, but I think that's already starting with a little bit of a deficit.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:12
And like, oh, that's.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:13
That's someone else.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:15
If you're an ally for something, I think you're just as much, you know, a part of.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:19
Of the community, even if you're not the L to G to be, you know, or.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:24
Or the T.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:25
So maybe that's some headspace to get in and that might make a difference.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:31
Fundamentally, I think another part of it is what are your other intersections?

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:37
So beyond being just an ally, what else are you that you can leverage?

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:43
You know, what other goods do you have?

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:45
And because that's also probably a part of the answer in terms of whatever else that you are that maybe is hiding behind the cloak of just ally.

Ronnie Gladden
00:36:57
So if you are this person that's at 4h, or you are this person that's also in the church, or you are this person that's working someplace in an institution, that itself is probably a pathway to where maybe there's something you can leverage out of those places that might help to inform your ally, ship your ally, walk so that then it's not just siloed when you're in a support group.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:25
And I'm just the ally here.

Host
00:37:27
Right.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:28
You see what I mean?

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:29
So I.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:29
So.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:30
So it goes back to embracing what you are, your intersections.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:35
Even if you're not gay or lesbian or bi or trans or pansexual or sapiosexual, whatever it is, you can be CIS hetero and still have plenty of intersections.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:45
Understanding that doing that work and that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:50
That probably would offer some more, you know, insights.

Host
00:37:54
Absolutely.

Host
00:37:55
Wow.

Host
00:37:57
Everyone that makes Sense.

Ronnie Gladden
00:37:58
I know we kind of.

Host
00:37:59
It totally does.

Host
00:38:00
No, I'm literally blown away because I have.

Host
00:38:04
I mean, so many times have been told, either told, told or read to be very careful as an ally, to not.

Host
00:38:16
Like, you are an ally.

Host
00:38:17
Like, you're over here.

Host
00:38:18
Right.

Host
00:38:19
You're not part of.

Host
00:38:21
And so I've always kind of envisioned, like, what I do is like a, like, you know, support.

Host
00:38:28
Like, I am here to, like, advocate.

Host
00:38:31
Right.

Host
00:38:31
And to hold and to learn and, you know, all of these things.

Host
00:38:36
So I.

Host
00:38:37
That.

Host
00:38:37
I love that perspective because I think there is definitely, like this piece of me that's like, clearly there's a reason why I'm such a fighter.

Host
00:38:44
Right.

Host
00:38:45
For everyone in the community.

Host
00:38:48
So I love that and I hope that everybody listening is really taking.

Host
00:38:52
You might have to stop and rewind and listen to that again because that was really powerful and really just so thought provoking.

Host
00:39:01
Holy cow.

Host
00:39:02
I'm just like a little bit set.

Host
00:39:05
You really, like, threw me off my feet a little bit there.

Host
00:39:07
So.

Host
00:39:08
Thank you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:39:09
You need.

Ronnie Gladden
00:39:09
You need some tea too.

Host
00:39:11
I do.

Host
00:39:12
I need some peach tranquility tea.

Host
00:39:14
I can't wait.

Host
00:39:14
I'm gonna go right after this and get my.

Ronnie Gladden
00:39:17
You should go get some.

Ronnie Gladden
00:39:18
Yeah.

Host
00:39:19
And every time I drink it, I'll be like, oh, thank you for like a million billion things.

Host
00:39:25
Oh, my gosh.

Host
00:39:26
Thank you.

Host
00:39:27
Holy cow.

Host
00:39:28
And I also, just.

Host
00:39:30
The other thing that I.

Host
00:39:31
That you just said, which I think is so powerful and just helpful is stopping and thinking because I think we do get so, like, wound, right?

Host
00:39:42
Like, oh, my gosh, this, like, hair's on fire.

Host
00:39:45
Freaking out and kind of taking that step back and being like, okay, I am well equipped in these ways to make a difference to.

Host
00:39:56
And it doesn't have to be like a world changing difference.

Host
00:39:59
It can be a conversation with one person.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:01
Exactly.

Host
00:40:02
Right?

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:02
Yeah.

Host
00:40:03
And that is what is so important.

Host
00:40:07
And really, like you said leveraging just who you are already.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:13
Right.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:13
Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:14
Because I think you might feel an obligation if you're just an ally.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:18
Like, you have to work to construct an identity all around that you know, and you are already a lived person and a person with experiences.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:32
And I could see how that could be off putting to a lot of folks.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:35
It's like, this is a whole other bucket.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:37
And now I've got to fill this up.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:39
And it's like, well, no, I mean, you already have a life and draw from that and use that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:47
And that probably would be more inviting.

Ronnie Gladden
00:40:49
At the same time, what I get is, you know, there are still certain sensitivities and sensibilities to be mindful of, you know, and we're all learning with that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:01
And so maybe some people may feel like there are parts of them that are inelegant or that needs a little bit more refining.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:08
I mean, we all.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:09
We all have that, and maybe that's a part of it as well.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:13
So, you know, giving.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:13
Giving some grace and recognizing that, you know, there are folks that are trying and they're trying their best, obviously, for those who aren't, because you have plenty of trolls out there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:21
They know full well what they're doing.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:23
They're pushing buttons that they're.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:25
They're misgendering people.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:27
They're doing all the things that we don't celebrate, that we don't want done.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:31
I'm not talking about that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:32
But it's like, you know, maybe you aren't versed in all the vocabulary or all of, you know, in terms of acknowledging all the language that you're supposed to have when it comes to interacting with someone, but you can get there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:49
So you give a little grace and you work towards that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:52
So we're not always here to be right.

Ronnie Gladden
00:41:54
We're here to get it right.

Host
00:41:56
That's right.

Host
00:41:57
That's right.

Host
00:41:57
Well, and I think it's always.

Host
00:41:59
So it's going to be messy, right?

Host
00:42:03
I mean, I say that all the time.

Host
00:42:04
It's going to be messy.

Host
00:42:05
So just embrace that.

Host
00:42:07
Know that you're going to make mistakes.

Host
00:42:09
But it's so much better to make the mistake while trying than be too afraid to try at all.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:16
Exactly.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:17
And then go back, and then we're where we are now, having to work to reclaim some of the victories that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:25
That were won.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:26
And it's like, well, not, not.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:28
Not fully, not, not completely.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:30
Now you have something else, something else that's there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:34
So I think the book will point to that just as much as to my own story.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:40
Because in the book, you know, there are questions that are, for those who read it to reflect on their identity.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:48
There's an identity wheel that's in there.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:50
There's questions through an academic lens, through a pop cultural lens, through the lens of a book club.

Ronnie Gladden
00:42:58
There's different angles.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:00
One can do that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:01
One can begin writing letters to themselves, just like you see that there are letters that are in the book between the white girl, between the black guy and all that.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:11
So, yeah, it's.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:12
It's.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:13
It's interactive in the book, and it's interactive in the way we're talking about it, through the podcast.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:17
Interactive in life.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:18
So we all Have a lot of work to do, apparently.

Ronnie Gladden
00:43:22
I guess.

Host
00:43:22
We do.

Host
00:43:23
We do.

Host
00:43:24
Well, you know, it's the whole idea of, you know, once you stop growing, what happens?

Host
00:43:29
We don't want that.

Host
00:43:30
I don't want that option.

Host
00:43:32
So I'd like to forever be learning and growing for as long as possible.

Host
00:43:38
And I'm so glad that you circled back to the book, because I just cannot highly recommend it highly enough.

Host
00:43:48
And I just want everyone to go buy it and read it, because it's not just a read.

Host
00:43:54
Right.

Host
00:43:54
Like you just said, it is interactive, and it will challenge you to really think and examine who you are in this world.

Host
00:44:05
And I love that and to.

Host
00:44:07
And to love that person for all of the pieces, all of the ends.

Host
00:44:12
So I'm just so grateful that you wrote this.

Host
00:44:15
And 15 plus year journey.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:21
I would never have thought.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:25
Would never thought.

Host
00:44:27
Right.

Host
00:44:28
Well, you know, I think some of the most beautiful things come out of what we never would have thought.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:36
Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:37
Yeah, that's true.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:39
Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:40
I just.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:41
Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:41
If you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:42
You go with it, you let yourself be open and go with it.

Ronnie Gladden
00:44:45
Yeah.

Host
00:44:45
Right.

Host
00:44:46
Oh, my goodness gracious.

Host
00:44:48
Yes.

Host
00:44:49
And yes.

Host
00:44:50
Oh, and yes.

Host
00:44:53
Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or share?

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:02
Wow.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:04
I like what we were just saying in terms of being open and giving grace as we work to understand each other better and as we work to be more authentic and vulnerable.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:20
Only when the time is right, of course.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:22
Only when you've grown to that point.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:24
Only when, you know, you think it makes sense.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:27
I mean, don't put yourself in danger.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:29
You know, maybe talk with a mental health professional, have some guidance.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:33
But, yeah, I think being open is a good thing.

Host
00:45:41
Is a good thing, yes.

Host
00:45:43
I am so grateful you've been here today with me, and I'm just, like I said at the beginning, I was so looking forward to our conversation.

Host
00:45:52
And thank you so much for being here.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:55
Thank you.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:56
Oh, my pleasure.

Ronnie Gladden
00:45:58
My pleasure.

Heather Hester
00:46:00
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:46:03
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester
00:46:08
For a rating or review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:46:23
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:46:29
And remember to just breathe until.

Heather Hester
00:46:33
Until next time.