Simon Michael: Barrister Turned Author

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Hey y 'all, I'm Carrie, and this is Monstrous.
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The stories are strange, the shadows run deep,
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and the tea is always a little dark. have a special
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bonus episode i'm joined by simon michael who
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is a four -heart criminal barrister who turns
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new novelist he's often called the british john
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grissom so welcome simon i'm glad that you're
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here with me thank you very much for inviting
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me of course i'm very excited about this one
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so for any of you who did not know simon simon's
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been 37 years prosecuting and defending some
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of the most notorious criminal cases in British
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Corp, including in Old Bailey. Now, he writes
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historical legal crime thrillers that are set
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in the 1960s London, featuring his anti -hero
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barrister, Charles Holborn. Many of his stories
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are inspired by real cases. that he himself worked
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on, which means that he has seen things that
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most of us could barely imagine. So, so far,
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I'm a huge fan of your work. I look forward to
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reading through all of your books. Pretty excited
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to dive into your story and what moved you from
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being a barrister to author. Oh, wow. That's
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easy. When I was very young and very green, I
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was instructed for the defense in a murder case.
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It was called a cutthroat defense. I don't know
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if you have them in the States, but it's where
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the prosecution, the DA, from your perspective,
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doesn't know which of two criminals did the deed,
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but he knows definitely that one of them did.
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And in the UK, what you do is if you're prosecuting,
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you just... put them both in court and fight
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it out between the two of them. So they're great
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fun if you're prosecuting and very difficult
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if you're defending. So we were involved in a
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case of a shooting of a security guard and each
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of the two defendants said he did it. And the
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police couldn't decide which one it was anyway.
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So I was told one of those guys and we won the
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case and I thought it would make a good story.
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So I wrote that up as a book. And I was really
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surprised to find that the character I had created,
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it was really kind of based on me, was very popular
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with readers. So it turned into a publication
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contract. And now I'm on 11 books in. I'm still
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writing about my cases and oral cases. Historical
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cases are really interesting. Well, it's definitely...
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One way to get into it. It's always good. I find
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the books that I read that have that personal
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touch into them. They just make it so much more
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worth reading. Much more interesting. I agree.
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And I think you can really, very often you can
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tell the authors who are writing about a field
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that they've only researched, but they haven't
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actually lived. For me, authenticity is absolutely
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essential. I can tell you what it smells like
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down in the cells of the courts at Old Bailey.
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And I can tell you exactly what sort of conversation
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goes on in the robbing rooms between the barristers
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on opposite sides. Because I've done it. I've
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done 37 years of it. And I think that's really
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important. It brings the books to life. Right.
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I completely agree with that. Now, speaking of
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your criminal career, you spent decades prosecuting
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and defending very serious crimes. What is one
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of those cases that stayed with you long after
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it came to an end? Oh, that's easy. That was
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called the Whitefoot Coup. It was really famous,
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a very well -known case in the UK about a guy
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who killed his wife and dumped her body in the
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deepest lake of Britain. And he should have got
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away with it. I mean, he was, she wasn't, she
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was a very difficult woman. She had multiple
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affairs. She drank like a fish. She used to rub
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her husband's nose in her affairs. She didn't.
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didn't hide them, you know. Our boyfriends would
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pick her up from the house and they'd go off
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for a dirty weekend on some hotel and then the
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boyfriends would bring her back and, you know,
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just deposit her at the front door. She was a
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very unpleasant woman. Anyway, eventually she
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came back from a particular weekend with one
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of her boyfriends and there was a row of the
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Aspen and she ended up dead. And he took her
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all the way to Wolfswater, which is this lake.
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managed to dump her into Walsall to tie down
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with a concrete block. And he would have got
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away with it. He did actually get away with it
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for nearly 10 years. But he was a very unlucky
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guy because of this huge, huge levee. There is
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like a finger of rock sticking up from the bottom.
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It's called Diffin's Rock. It didn't break through
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this. So people who didn't know the lake didn't
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know it existed. The only people who knew it
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existed were the local diving club because they
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used to use that finger of rock as a beacon for
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night dives to test their skills. So he dropped
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her in this lake and he landed her right on top
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of this little finger of rock called Tiffin's
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Rock. It's always under the surface. So no one
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knew it was there. And it just so happened that
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the temperature of the water at that point where
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she landed. It was between zero degrees centigrade
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and one degree centigrade throughout the year.
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And when you put a human body into water at that
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temperature, it becomes adipose, wax -like. And
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she was perfectly preserved. She looked like
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a waxworm dummy. She looked exactly like the
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day she went in. But she was not covered up with
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silt over the years until about nine years after
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the event. A young diver was out doing her first
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night dive and she went down to Tiffin's Rock
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and she put her hand out to it to turn herself
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around in the water. So it's the middle of the
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night and a navigator behind her who is supposed
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to help her if she gets into trouble, but otherwise
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not interfere. She has to navigate using a compass
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to Tiffin's Rock, turn around and come back.
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She got her hand out and she managed to dislodge
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a whole load of filth. and found herself looking
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down into the face of another woman. Oh, my goodness.
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And when she came, as you can imagine, she bolted
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to the surface really quickly. And she said to
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the guy, there's a woman down there, there's
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a woman down there. And he said, no, no, no,
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dear, you just came up too fast. You've got the
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bends. I told you, you're going deeper than normal.
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You've meant to come up slowly and in stages,
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and you went straight for the surface. So you're
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just having hallucinations caused by, nitrogen
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narcosis and she said, no, no, no, I saw the
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body before I came up. He didn't believe her
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and no one believed her until a few weeks later
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the police were out looking for a completely
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unrelated young walker that had gone missing
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on a walking holiday and they took a photograph
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into the dining club where this young lady was,
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the diver was sitting having a drink with her
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boyfriend and showed her the photograph and said,
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have you seen this woman? The one in the walker.
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And she looked at it and said, no, I've not seen
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her. There's a different one down there, but
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that's not her. The police had no choice but
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to send out divers because they had to. And they
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found this woman 10 years after she'd gone down.
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Oh, that is crazy. And she looked the same the
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day she went down. She looked exactly the same,
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her features were the same, her teeth holes were
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in place. They were able to identify her from
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dental records almost immediately. which is why
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we called her the waxwork corpse. On the television
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and the radio, and so the journalists, they all
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called her the lady in the lake. But that one
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really stuck in my head. It was such a wonderful
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story. There's a love story involved in it as
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well. So I wrote that one. This is book five
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in my series. And it's very popular because a
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lot of people in the UK still remember the case.
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Right. Yeah, it sounds very... Very interesting.
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It's wild how nature works and how nature can
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preserve things like that. The same thing happens
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in bogs or bog bodies. It's basically the same
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process. It's crazy how nature can just do that
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without even trying. The bog bodies are amazing,
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aren't they? Oh, yes. They get a sort of coppery
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color to their hair and so on, but they look.
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It's like tanned leather when they come out.
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Right. It's incredible. It is. Bond bodies are
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very interesting to me. Excellent. Now, when
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you decided to retire and do writing full -time,
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did your colleagues think you had lost your mind?
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Yes. My parents were still alive then, and my
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dad just, they came from working -class people,
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they had no money. And so the idea that their
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son should throw away a career where he had an
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absolute fortune to try his hand at writing novels,
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and they really did think I had some sort of
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middle -life crisis, and the people at my office
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were just, they really couldn't understand it.
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It was largely to do with the fact that the head
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of that office, who was a good friend of mine
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and was about two years younger than me, we used
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to talk a lot when we were dealing with cases
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together. We'd be at court with our feet up in
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the roaming room waiting for the jury to come
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back with the verdict. And we'd always talk about,
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what are we going to do when we're finished doing
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this? And he said, I'm going to go visit all
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these countries. I want to go to the Galapagos
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Islands. I want to do this and that. And I said,
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well, when I'm... I'm going to have a go at writing
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again. And he got pancreatic cancer and died
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within a very few months. And it made me sit
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back and think, hang on, how long am I going
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to put this off? So I decided, okay, you only
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live once, and I'm going to go for it. And so
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that's what made me decide to retire early and
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give up those last few million bucks I might
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have earned. I'm sure you probably made it up
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in your writing, for sure. You haven't done it
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yet, though, as an author. You don't get much,
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but it's a lot more fun. Right. You have that
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freedom that you don't have with everything else.
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It's also that I can give a dent to my creativity,
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which is not something you do very often when
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you are... And so that's why I've written so
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many books. In 10 years, I've written 13 published
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novels. And it's a case of sometimes finding
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the time to write them all because I'm just so
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full of ideas. You'll get them all out eventually.
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Now, I had mentioned that you had worked at Old
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Bailey, which is arguably the most famous criminal
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court in the UK. What's the most intense courtroom
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moment that you've ever experienced with an old
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baby? Oh, that's a very good question. Well,
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there was one case where I was defending a guy
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who was undoubtedly mad as a box of rocks. He
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was crazy. He was charged with murder and he
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was convicted. I was very pleased he was convicted.
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I mean, you know, me and the other barrister,
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we did our best too. to put his story forward
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but we believed he was guilty and we were very
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relieved when the jury agreed. We were down in
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the cells with him afterwards and the other barrister
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had to go out, he was called Asselin and I was
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on my own with this guy and I suddenly realised
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that he hated me. He thought that we hadn't done
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a good enough job and that he was threatening
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because he wound himself up into a big theory.
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And I was busy ringing the bell to try and get
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myself out of there, and the tailor wasn't coming.
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And this guy was, you could almost see steam
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coming out of his ears. And I knew that if I
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stayed there any longer, he was going to attack
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me. It wasn't something big, but, you know, it
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was tough. And I kept on pressing the button,
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and eventually... got the jailer to come and
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lifted the widget down. And there's a metal gate
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in the door. And he said, are you all right,
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sir? And I said, no, just every other thing,
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please. And he didn't let me out. That was the
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scariest moment when I actually feared for my
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own safety. Oh, my gosh. I don't know what I
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would do in a moment like that where you're just
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trapped and you can't get out. Yeah, and of course
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he'd been convicted of murder, so really he had
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nothing to lose. Right. Because he wasn't for
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the rest of his life anyway. And then some years
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later he claimed that he'd converted to Islam.
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He changed his name, I can't remember what it
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was, to some Islamic Assyrian, he insulted the
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name. And then he managed to get a letter to
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me through my office telling me that he was now...
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a man of gold, and he really hoped that he could
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maintain correspondence with me. And I didn't
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trust it. I didn't trust it. No, thank you. And
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I just ignored the letter. Yes, I probably would
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have done the same thing. No, thank you. So you
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mentioned that you knew that he was guilty before
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the verdict came down. How hard is it? to be
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able to do your job in defending the way you
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need to, but know deep down that your client
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is guilty? Well, it's not easy. If you actually
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know that they're guilty because they tell you,
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you're not allowed to represent them on a basis
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of a not guilty plea from then on. You owe a
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duty to the court not to mislead the court. So
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if he says, oh no, I did it, but please try and
00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.440
get me off, then you have to walk away. And you
00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.879
have to say to him, if you say the same thing
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.940
to the next guy that represents you, they'll
00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:56.960
walk away as well. And you can offer to do the
00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.440
best you possibly can in mitigation and to reduce
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:03.799
the sentence. But that is knowing. It's different
00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.740
from when you strongly suspect. And I've had
00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:09.320
lots of cases where I strongly suspected that
00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.299
somebody was guilty. And I've even said to them
00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:16.100
in some cases, look, my job is to do your mouthpiece.
00:16:16.590 --> 00:16:19.429
If you want me to tell the jury that's what happened,
00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:22.370
I will tell them that. But I don't believe it
00:16:22.370 --> 00:16:24.830
and I don't think it's going to believe it either.
00:16:25.049 --> 00:16:28.710
So maybe you want to think again. When I started
00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:31.750
the bar, the corruption in the Metropolitan Police
00:16:31.750 --> 00:16:35.129
was so endemic, you couldn't trust the evidence
00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:37.529
that you were being given because people were
00:16:37.529 --> 00:16:41.889
often being peaked into confessing or the police
00:16:41.889 --> 00:16:43.909
would make up a confession. You know, the whole
00:16:43.909 --> 00:16:46.870
thing about recording interviews with defendants
00:16:46.870 --> 00:16:50.450
just didn't happen in those days. And the Met
00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:54.250
were known to be a thoroughly corrupt institution.
00:16:54.610 --> 00:16:56.690
In fact, the Commissioner of Police, when he
00:16:56.690 --> 00:17:00.629
wrote his autobiography a few years later, he
00:17:00.629 --> 00:17:04.670
said, I just hope we catch more criminals than
00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:10.500
we employ. You couldn't trust the evidence. And
00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:12.059
so if you couldn't trust the evidence, it was
00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:16.220
very dangerous to reach any conclusion until
00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:19.500
after the case was over. But you do learn to
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:21.859
just put your feelings to one side and just do
00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:24.720
your job. If you're prosecuting or defending,
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.779
you just present the case and you let the jury
00:17:27.779 --> 00:17:31.359
make up its mind. That's pretty hard to do is
00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:36.119
set those feelings aside, though. Yeah, it can
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.730
be. especially when you've got a case where vulnerable
00:17:40.730 --> 00:17:44.250
people like children have been hurt and really
00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:48.869
want justice to come to this guy and you have
00:17:48.869 --> 00:17:54.490
a job to represent them as best you can. It is
00:17:54.490 --> 00:17:58.089
tough, but you're too loud to do it. You have
00:17:58.089 --> 00:18:00.730
to sort of separate out your feelings. I'm not
00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:05.529
sure if I can do that, to be honest. I would.
00:18:06.009 --> 00:18:13.549
Go ahead. I think it's a case of practice and
00:18:13.549 --> 00:18:16.150
professionalism. You learn to do it. You learn
00:18:16.150 --> 00:18:20.130
to treat the case as a sort of academic exercise
00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:22.650
in the sense you distance your notions from it.
00:18:22.769 --> 00:18:25.869
Whether it's your prosecution or defense, you
00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:29.589
put the evidence before the jury and know, trust
00:18:29.589 --> 00:18:32.930
that they will reach the right decision. Fingers
00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:36.579
crossed, because sometimes they don't. That's
00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.859
true, which is why most British lawyers would
00:18:39.859 --> 00:18:43.640
vote against the death penalty. I know that they
00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.519
have the death penalty in a number of American
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.940
states still, and women and people spend lives
00:18:48.940 --> 00:18:51.759
on death row. Yeah. I don't think it would be
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.079
that bad, yeah, because you, you know, when you
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.660
make a mistake and courts do sometimes make mistakes,
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.259
it is hanged or electrocuted to the guy. You
00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:05.529
can't put that mistake right. No. Angelina? And
00:19:05.529 --> 00:19:10.190
even here in the U .S. or the states that do
00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:14.190
still have the death penalty, many of them haven't
00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:20.369
used that in years. So many of the criminals
00:19:20.369 --> 00:19:24.049
are sentenced to death row, but they just sit
00:19:24.049 --> 00:19:27.089
there. They spend their entire sentence on death
00:19:27.089 --> 00:19:31.369
row rather than just getting rid of it and doing
00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:35.980
a life sentence. Yeah. Yeah. We would say cruel
00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:41.839
and inhuman to be on death row for the whole
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.440
of your life. Oh, yeah. I completely agree that
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:52.059
you shouldn't because you're in a cell by yourself
00:19:52.059 --> 00:19:57.380
23 hours a day. You get no sunlight. There's
00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.299
no interaction with people. And then you do that
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:02.440
for 20 years and you didn't deserve it because
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.990
you weren't guilty. Yeah. And it changes your
00:20:05.990 --> 00:20:12.910
brain for sure. Yes. So, okay, let's talk about
00:20:12.910 --> 00:20:18.230
Charles Holborn. Yes. So you said that he is
00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.710
largely based on you. Yeah, he's obviously bigger
00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:26.109
and younger and sexier than me, but it's just
00:20:26.109 --> 00:20:30.829
fiction. I don't know how to do that. So what
00:20:30.829 --> 00:20:36.140
about him? Do you think it makes him so intriguing
00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:40.440
to your readers? He's a real person in the sense
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.000
that he has a lot of faults, but he knows that
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.740
he has those faults and he does his best to rise
00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:51.980
above them. He's completely obsessed with his
00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:55.880
job. He works too hard and he tends to, you know,
00:20:55.900 --> 00:20:58.220
his family always comes last because he's so
00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:02.569
invested in trying to do the right thing. he
00:21:02.569 --> 00:21:06.789
has a sort of a sedia complex you know he doesn't
00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:09.509
if anyone needs his help he has to go and help
00:21:09.509 --> 00:21:13.809
especially if they are unfairly accused of something
00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:18.829
and he's a man of his time as well I mean in
00:21:18.829 --> 00:21:21.630
the 60s you must have seen the series Mad Men
00:21:21.630 --> 00:21:26.130
or you know about the series yeah okay that was
00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:29.000
a tie wing Women had to fight for the right to
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.160
have their own bank account. They couldn't, you
00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:33.059
know, they were frowned upon if they wanted a
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:35.880
career. They were supposed to be really young
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:40.500
babies. And we've gone a long way since then.
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.720
Oh, yeah. It was like that in the UK too. In
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:49.240
those days, a woman wasn't even allowed to take
00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.660
out a bank loan unless her husband approved it
00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:57.289
first. So it's just remarkable. So I put him
00:21:57.289 --> 00:22:00.529
in at the time, and then I had him challenged
00:22:00.529 --> 00:22:03.869
by the woman that he loves. And he has to grow
00:22:03.869 --> 00:22:07.150
up, you know, and I know that there are readers
00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:09.670
who will think, oh, God, he's a misogynist, he's
00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:14.069
a non -dinosaur. But he tries very hard to be
00:22:14.069 --> 00:22:17.450
a better person. So I think that's what appeals
00:22:17.450 --> 00:22:20.430
to people. I know I get lots and lots of reviews
00:22:20.430 --> 00:22:25.740
from particularly female. uh readers who say
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.359
that they love the relationship between charles
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:31.559
and sally because she keeps him to heal you know
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.319
she she's always the worst signs of him of him
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.880
and and he loves her so much he's prepared to
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:43.579
listen to her i definitely like him myself he
00:22:43.579 --> 00:22:49.700
seems very very real you can easily um very personally
00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:52.559
i think you can easily find someone in your life
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:58.599
that is very much like him, if that makes sense.
00:22:59.619 --> 00:23:02.779
So out of your 11 books in your series, do you
00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:06.960
have a favorite? Well, it's a bit like your children,
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.700
isn't it? And you never admit to loving one more
00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:14.079
than the other. I am very fond of the new one,
00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:18.200
the French Vendetta, because it's set in France.
00:23:18.910 --> 00:23:21.670
and I don't need to invite a chance to look at
00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:24.769
it but it's set in France and a part of France
00:23:24.769 --> 00:23:30.130
that I love so it's very beautiful and the food
00:23:30.130 --> 00:23:34.509
is wonderful too. There's this undercurrent of
00:23:34.509 --> 00:23:38.509
conflict still from the war where people who
00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:43.829
supported the Germans and the Nazi regime, some
00:23:43.829 --> 00:23:46.210
families were on that side of the fence and others
00:23:46.210 --> 00:23:49.140
were fighting in the resistance. And so there
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:51.880
is still, even years later, a generation later,
00:23:52.099 --> 00:23:57.140
there is hatred in the village. And I just, I
00:23:57.140 --> 00:24:00.259
love France. I used to have a house there for
00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:04.299
a while. And so I've poured all my love of France
00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:10.299
into that book and given Charles a case to defend
00:24:10.299 --> 00:24:14.019
what is there. So I have a kind of special affection
00:24:14.019 --> 00:24:17.529
for it. I think most people say the best book
00:24:17.529 --> 00:24:20.049
in the series, the one that has, I think it's
00:24:20.049 --> 00:24:23.609
got a 4 .9 average rating on Audible, is called
00:24:23.609 --> 00:24:28.690
The Death Adjourned. And it's the ninth book
00:24:28.690 --> 00:24:32.430
in the series. And I'm very proud of that. It's
00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:34.809
got some really interesting characters in it
00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:40.690
based upon people I knew. And I'm slowly finding
00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:44.759
all of them. That way I can make my way. Freedom.
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:50.940
Thank you. All right. Before we switch things
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:56.680
up, is there anything about your writing career
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.839
or your criminal career that you would like to
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:04.279
tell my American listeners that is different
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:09.579
here versus there in the UK? Oh, wow. So much.
00:25:09.819 --> 00:25:13.279
We could talk for hours about this. I'd just
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.380
been commissioned to write a multi -book series
00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:19.799
based in the States. They read the Holman books
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:22.500
and said, could you transfer him or another character
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:24.759
like him out to America? They want this sort
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.619
of fish out of water British barrister who...
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:30.579
gets a lot of stuff wrong because he doesn't
00:25:30.579 --> 00:25:32.940
understand American oral procedure, but who is
00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.700
a brilliant advocate? So I said, sure, I can
00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:39.299
do that. I've come up with a new character. To
00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:43.220
do that, I had to spend a month in Cape Cod.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.799
I had a ride around in police cars. I went down
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.019
to the cells. I met the judges. I met a number
00:25:50.019 --> 00:25:52.519
of other attorneys. And they were fascinated
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.920
by how things are so different in the UK, even
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.750
though we have... almost the same legal system.
00:25:59.069 --> 00:26:02.150
I think the most important difference that they
00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:04.470
really couldn't get their head around is that
00:26:04.470 --> 00:26:07.549
in the States, you are either a district attorney
00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:10.049
or an assistant district attorney or you are
00:26:10.049 --> 00:26:13.829
a defense attorney. You don't do both. But in
00:26:13.829 --> 00:26:18.069
England, on Monday, I could be defending a murderer.
00:26:18.190 --> 00:26:21.150
On Tuesday, I could be prosecuting a rapist or
00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:24.509
whatever it may be. You get, you... You do both
00:26:24.509 --> 00:26:27.289
prosecution work and defense work on a daily
00:26:27.289 --> 00:26:30.970
basis. You're a referral profession, so anybody
00:26:30.970 --> 00:26:34.309
who has a good case can say, right, here, I'll
00:26:34.309 --> 00:26:36.809
put you like this. And we also have a thing called
00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:41.710
the cab rank rule. So like taxis, we have to
00:26:41.710 --> 00:26:43.730
take the first case that comes our way. It's
00:26:43.730 --> 00:26:46.210
got your name marked on it, and it's in your
00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:48.650
field. You have to take it, whether you like
00:26:48.650 --> 00:26:52.849
it or not. So that is really very different.
00:26:53.170 --> 00:26:57.710
Yes, yes. I've never heard of it being run like
00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:01.130
that. So that is wild. It's crazy how different
00:27:01.130 --> 00:27:04.930
the legal systems are because most of our laws
00:27:04.930 --> 00:27:09.210
came from the UK. That's right. But they're so
00:27:09.210 --> 00:27:14.380
different. Yeah, they partied company and they
00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:17.519
sort of kind of diverged over the years. But
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:20.400
the same principles still exist, which is interesting.
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:23.839
And so I found it easy to understand what was
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.660
happening in court. But, you know, of course,
00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:29.839
I have to wear a wig and a gown. I've got to
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:32.980
wear a full regalia to that, which you guys don't.
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:36.799
And I wish the Brits would get rid of that ridiculous.
00:27:38.090 --> 00:27:40.990
400 -year -old fashion accessory that you're
00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:44.650
wearing some horse hair on your head. Makes no
00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:48.109
sense to me at all. But the basic trust is just
00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:52.529
the same. I find it very interesting to see how
00:27:52.529 --> 00:27:56.569
different countries' systems and the way that
00:27:56.569 --> 00:28:00.730
their legal systems work are different and how
00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:02.509
they're like. I find it very, very interesting.
00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:05.809
Another big difference is we don't have jury
00:28:05.809 --> 00:28:09.390
selection like you do. We are not allowed to
00:28:09.390 --> 00:28:12.990
know anything about the jurors. Not their names,
00:28:13.089 --> 00:28:15.930
not their jobs, nothing. They are drawn at random,
00:28:16.069 --> 00:28:20.190
using a computer, looking in the eye for people
00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:22.990
who are registered to vote. And you just get
00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:26.289
12 people. You don't know who they are. You're
00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:29.630
not allowed to ask what goes on in the jury room,
00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:33.170
either before, during, or after the case. And
00:28:33.170 --> 00:28:35.569
a lot of the attorneys who I was with were the
00:28:35.569 --> 00:28:37.809
same. How do you know if they're not biased?
00:28:38.069 --> 00:28:40.789
And I say, well, you have to take it on trust
00:28:40.789 --> 00:28:43.269
that there will be enough honest men or women
00:28:43.269 --> 00:28:46.250
in the jury room to keep them on track. Right.
00:28:47.609 --> 00:28:50.730
And it does seem to work. Well, yeah, it seems
00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:53.309
to be working well. Why change something if it
00:28:53.309 --> 00:28:57.309
works perfectly fine? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah,
00:28:57.369 --> 00:28:59.990
so I learned in my month on the cake, I learned
00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:05.279
a lot of stuff that was... but essentially the
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.619
systems are very similar. So I'm helping out.
00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:11.980
My new hero, his name is James De Vries. He's
00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:15.019
the grandson of an Earl, so he's a part aristocratic,
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.359
very different from Charles, who's working class,
00:29:17.539 --> 00:29:20.740
ex -criminal doctor. And so I've got the other
00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:23.420
extreme, and I've placed him in the middle of
00:29:23.420 --> 00:29:30.200
a murder trial on the cake. Oh, no, that'll be
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:35.680
fine. I'll have to keep my eyes out for that
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:44.400
one. Okay. Okay. So now we're going to tell each
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.319
other a case from our respective countries. Okay.
00:29:48.700 --> 00:29:52.839
So that way we get a little bit of criminal world
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:57.119
from both ends. If that makes sense. Okay. Would
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.079
you like to go first or would you like me? to
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.140
go first. You go first. I've been doing all the
00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:08.000
talking. Okay, so I have the Texarkana Moonlight
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:12.279
Murders. This one was a series of four violent
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:17.400
attacks in Texarkana, Texas and Texarkana, Arkansas.
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:21.660
These happened between February 2nd and May 3rd,
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:27.839
1946. That's an old one. Eight people were attacked.
00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:32.859
Five of them were fatally attacked. Obviously,
00:30:33.099 --> 00:30:37.559
the killings occurred at night on weekends, targeted
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:40.160
couples who were in isolated locations, so like
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.059
lover's lanes, quiet roads, remote farmhouses.
00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:48.500
And the killer became known as the Phantom Killer.
00:30:49.099 --> 00:30:51.799
And some people have also called him the Phantom
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:58.400
of Texarkana. So the first attack was at Letters
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:03.160
Lane in Bowie County, Texas. Jimmy Hollis and
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.839
Mary Larry were approached by a masked man. And
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:11.400
this masked man thing becomes a theme. Hollis
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:16.039
was struck twice in the head. His skull was cracked.
00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:20.000
And then Larry was unfortunately sexually assaulted
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:25.710
with the perpetrator's gun barrel. That becomes
00:31:25.710 --> 00:31:29.589
the theme of the entire thing. Our next victims
00:31:29.589 --> 00:31:34.750
were Richard Gresham and Polly Moore. They were
00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:37.089
shot in the back of the head in an Oldsmobile
00:31:37.089 --> 00:31:43.569
vehicle on a secluded area as well. Next was
00:31:43.569 --> 00:31:46.170
Paul Martin and Betty Booker. They were killed
00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:50.500
in a similar pattern. Then in Arkansas was the
00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:53.839
final attack. It was Virgil Starks was shot through
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:56.500
the front window. And then his wife, Katie, was
00:31:56.500 --> 00:31:59.940
shot twice in the face. But she survived her
00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:05.119
attack. So then they, it's a multi -jurisdictional
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:09.799
investigation. Texas Rangers are involved. All
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.160
of the evidence comes together. They finally
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.519
figure out that Noel Sweeney, who was a career
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:20.079
criminal and car theft. through his wife's statements,
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.539
he was married, through her statements and the
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:27.900
circumstantial evidence that linked him, though
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:34.640
she did refuse to testify. Now, eventually, they
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.099
did have to drop the murder charges against him
00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:43.160
because his wife refused to testify. But he was
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.259
convicted on other crimes and sentenced to prison.
00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:52.019
So we know who did it in this case, but he never
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:54.460
actually went to prison for it solely because
00:32:54.460 --> 00:33:01.059
one witness would not testify. They couldn't
00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:04.039
force her to because I think they're the same
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:08.259
as it is here. You can't force a spouse to give
00:33:08.259 --> 00:33:10.559
evidence against their other spouse. They can
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.960
deal with it, but they can't be forced. Yeah,
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:16.519
that's correct. And she handed over circumstantial
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.420
evidence and she told them what she knew, but
00:33:19.420 --> 00:33:23.559
she refused to get on the stand. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:28.599
Just in case. It is. Definitely. It's on my list.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.660
We're going to cover it in full detail, but it's
00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:34.619
a long one because it spans over years. That's
00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:39.220
the rundown of the Texarkana Moonlight Murders.
00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:45.279
Right. Okay. Now, do you want to hear about one
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.079
of my favourite birdies here? So, have you ever
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:55.160
heard of the Kray twins? K -R -A -Y. I don't
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.619
know if they are well known in the States. I
00:33:57.619 --> 00:34:02.440
don't think I have. Okay. They were two psychopathic
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:08.900
twins who ruled London's underworld for a generation.
00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:13.320
They made a lot of money from protection rackets,
00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:16.619
I'm sure you know who they are, from illegal
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:22.059
gambling, from sex trade, and they had been sort
00:34:22.059 --> 00:34:24.679
of at a time when the Metropolitan Police was,
00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:27.940
as I say, institutionally corrupt, and they had
00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:32.059
many, many policemen in their pockets at the
00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:35.000
time. They used to boast, for example, that if
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.480
anyone went into a central London police station,
00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:42.130
with any evidence or whispers about what they
00:34:42.130 --> 00:34:45.090
were up to. They went in before lunchtime. By
00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:47.510
tea time, they would have heard it because they
00:34:47.510 --> 00:34:49.170
would have had so many policemen on the phone
00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:51.969
to them saying, if you pay me a little bit, I'll
00:34:51.969 --> 00:34:53.530
give you this information about what's going
00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:58.269
on. And the worst thing was they had a number
00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:00.789
of very senior politicians in their pockets as
00:35:00.789 --> 00:35:04.690
well, very senior. So this is almost like Chicago
00:35:04.690 --> 00:35:12.329
-style Matthews at Bama. Right. Ronnie Cray,
00:35:12.489 --> 00:35:15.030
the more violent, and they were convicted initially
00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:17.650
of multiple murders, but they'd killed many,
00:35:17.809 --> 00:35:20.510
many times before and never been caught, rather
00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:24.250
than like members of the mafia in the States.
00:35:25.269 --> 00:35:28.809
Okay, well, Ronnie Cray was the most violent
00:35:28.809 --> 00:35:30.690
of the two. He'd been in hospital, been in a
00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:34.210
mental institution after a conviction, and he
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:39.539
was coming out of the... Baltimore, I think,
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.980
was the particular hospital, secure hospital.
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:44.739
And so his twin thought it'd be a great idea
00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:48.500
if they had a party for him. And they just got
00:35:48.500 --> 00:35:51.380
a new apartment in North London, so they're going
00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:54.199
to christen the apartment as well. And the priest
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.199
got to hear about this, and they thought it'd
00:35:56.199 --> 00:36:01.880
be a great idea to be in disguised vans or trucks
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:04.989
outside. with a hole drilled out of the back
00:36:04.989 --> 00:36:07.110
and a camera through it. And they would take
00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:10.329
photographs of all the guys coming and going
00:36:10.329 --> 00:36:12.150
to this party. They thought they would be able
00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:16.010
to get a picture of the Kray twins' latest crop
00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:19.889
of young criminals who they worked with. So they
00:36:19.889 --> 00:36:23.969
were kept outside undertaking surveillance. What
00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:26.230
they didn't know was that this was a gay sex
00:36:26.230 --> 00:36:31.480
party. Ronnie was gay. And worse still, they
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.739
were using very young boys. So this is, we're
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:40.679
talking pedophilia. And the boys that were being
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:43.760
required to put on live sex shows and then partner
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.199
up with some of the middle -aged men there were
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:50.340
young, very young, 40, 50, 60 -year -olds. The
00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:52.400
police couldn't believe it that they found themselves
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:56.760
taking pictures of very senior politicians leaving
00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:00.369
this apartment. One of them was a member of the
00:37:00.369 --> 00:37:03.409
cabinet, you know, and he was a Lord, a guy called
00:37:03.409 --> 00:37:07.730
Lord Robert Bothby, who strangely finished his
00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:11.570
public life on American TV doing a show called
00:37:11.570 --> 00:37:17.190
What's My Line? Oh, yeah. Especially before mine,
00:37:17.269 --> 00:37:20.829
too. Anyway, so I got a picture of this guy coming
00:37:20.829 --> 00:37:24.530
out and also a picture of the chairman of the
00:37:24.530 --> 00:37:26.610
Labour Party, which is the opposition, the official
00:37:26.610 --> 00:37:30.210
opposition. who was a file man, a chap called
00:37:30.210 --> 00:37:35.289
Tom Drybag MP. This stuff got leaked to the press
00:37:35.289 --> 00:37:40.570
and the press ran with it, this sordid paedophile
00:37:40.570 --> 00:37:45.070
ring. But the Conservative government didn't
00:37:45.070 --> 00:37:47.909
want another cover -up. They just unveiled one
00:37:47.909 --> 00:37:51.050
in which their leader had to change and one of
00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:54.570
their ministers got sacked. And the opposition
00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:57.590
didn't want it to come out again because there
00:37:57.590 --> 00:37:59.510
was an election coming up and they thought they
00:37:59.510 --> 00:38:02.650
might win. So the two sides of the political
00:38:02.650 --> 00:38:08.010
divide got together and they basically told the
00:38:08.010 --> 00:38:11.590
Commissioner of Police to destroy the file, which
00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:13.869
they did. They then went and put him in front
00:38:13.869 --> 00:38:16.409
of the cameras and the journalists and he said,
00:38:16.429 --> 00:38:18.889
no, we've never had such an investigation. The
00:38:18.889 --> 00:38:22.500
stuff in the newspapers is made up. And the result
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:26.420
was that Boothby sued for libel against the newspaper
00:38:26.420 --> 00:38:30.739
and won a huge, huge sum of damages for having
00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:34.559
printed a true story. Well, the police realized
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:37.260
that they couldn't get these guys. They had members
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:40.280
of the government in their own pockets. Right.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.420
And from then on, they went on a rampage of murder.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:48.340
The first one was that Ronnie Craig walked into
00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:50.920
a pub in the east end of London called the Blind
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:56.719
Beggar with a revolver in his hand. He walked
00:38:56.719 --> 00:39:00.659
up to a guy at the bar, put a gun to his head
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:03.539
and blew his brains out in front of 30 witnesses
00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:10.119
and no one saw anything. Holy moly. And then
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:11.739
they decided that they were going to get rid
00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:15.340
of a guy who had the name, his nickname was Jack
00:39:15.340 --> 00:39:18.679
the Hat McGlitty. And he was called Jack the
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:21.039
Hat. He was very attractive young man, but he
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:24.500
was losing his hair early. So he used to wear
00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:28.519
a pretty hat to cover his bald spot. So he was
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:30.980
called Jack the Hat. Jack the Hat was one of
00:39:30.980 --> 00:39:33.960
their own men. He was responsible for distributing
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.610
the drugs that they sold. Unfortunately, he was
00:39:37.610 --> 00:39:40.510
taking as many drugs as he was delivering, and
00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:42.670
eventually they decided it wasn't him. So they
00:39:42.670 --> 00:39:45.710
invited him to... What they did was they went
00:39:45.710 --> 00:39:50.989
to an apartment in London where they knew the
00:39:50.989 --> 00:39:53.670
guy who rented it. Now, this guy was in prison
00:39:53.670 --> 00:39:56.630
at the time, but his wife was there with their
00:39:56.630 --> 00:39:59.730
two children, and they knocked on the door to
00:39:59.730 --> 00:40:01.940
knock on the door at night. The lady concerned
00:40:01.940 --> 00:40:04.539
was known as Blonde Carol throughout the trial
00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:07.119
at the Old Bailey in Two Cross. They went into
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.840
Blonde Carol's flat and said to her, we need
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.079
to borrow your apartment. So do you mind getting
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.579
out for a bit? And she said, but I can't. My
00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:17.679
kids are ready to go. They're in bed. She was
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:20.400
in her dressing gown ready to go to bed herself.
00:40:20.739 --> 00:40:22.840
And two small children were asleep. And they
00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:24.360
said, never mind that. We want them to sleep.
00:40:24.539 --> 00:40:28.119
So get out. So she had to wake up her children,
00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:30.159
put them in their dressing gowns and walk them
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:33.940
across the road to her neighbour. And so then
00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:37.440
they had their arm and tent, they filled it with
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.420
wine and drink and music and they pretended there
00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:42.139
was a party going on. And then Jack the Hat came
00:40:42.139 --> 00:40:45.900
in and then Reggie Gray tried to kill him using
00:40:45.900 --> 00:40:48.679
the same gun that a few weeks ago they'd used
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.730
to kill George Cornell. And the gun jammed. So
00:40:52.730 --> 00:40:56.570
they went to Blonde Carol's cut redraw, took
00:40:56.570 --> 00:40:59.909
out her steak knives and cast into pieces this
00:40:59.909 --> 00:41:04.130
chap. And at midnight, or just after midnight,
00:41:04.369 --> 00:41:07.130
when Carol went back to her flat to say, can
00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:09.469
I come back now, please? My kids have gone to
00:41:09.469 --> 00:41:12.630
school in the morning. She was met on the steps
00:41:12.630 --> 00:41:17.289
by one of the gang who had taken her son's soccer
00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:20.809
socks. and he was wearing them over his hands,
00:41:20.929 --> 00:41:24.250
like forearms, as if they were blood. And he
00:41:24.250 --> 00:41:27.289
had them trying to wipe up all the blood on the
00:41:27.289 --> 00:41:32.010
floor using these socks, and he had blood dripping
00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:37.409
down from his elbows. And what they were doing,
00:41:37.510 --> 00:41:41.030
there was so much blood, they had tried to get
00:41:41.030 --> 00:41:43.469
it out of the carpet, but they weren't successful,
00:41:43.829 --> 00:41:46.559
so they were cutting up. carpet and burning it
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.880
on a fire in the backyard of this woman's house
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.320
in the middle of the night to try and destroy
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.559
the evidence. And she kept on complaining during
00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:57.719
the course of the trial. She said several times
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.079
she never got her purple candlewick bedspread
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:05.159
back. It was the thing that she seemed most worried
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:07.460
about. And the reason she didn't get it back
00:42:07.460 --> 00:42:09.900
was because it had been used to gather up Jack
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:13.809
the Hat's body parts. and take them out where
00:42:13.809 --> 00:42:16.150
they went, off to a place called Candy Island,
00:42:16.309 --> 00:42:19.250
where they had a place, basically they fed them
00:42:19.250 --> 00:42:22.269
to the pigs on Candy Island. Thank goodness.
00:42:23.449 --> 00:42:26.190
And during this time, the police weren't even
00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:29.030
involved. They weren't interested because they
00:42:29.030 --> 00:42:32.369
had seen so many careers ruined by trying to
00:42:32.369 --> 00:42:34.650
go after these greatlings when they had really
00:42:34.650 --> 00:42:39.369
very powerful cabinet ministers against them.
00:42:39.739 --> 00:42:42.539
they saw it was a waste of time so they basically
00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:47.280
had this free run like a free hit you know for
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:51.219
years and no one gave a damn what they did they
00:42:51.219 --> 00:42:53.820
just got on with it and it was some years later
00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:57.599
before finally an honest policeman from the metropolitan
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.900
police put together a task force of hand -picked
00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:04.300
men from all around the country people he knew
00:43:04.300 --> 00:43:09.059
he could trust to put the task force together
00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:11.599
that when he was asked by the commissioner of
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.059
police, would you, you know, which time he did
00:43:14.059 --> 00:43:16.559
something about the Kray twins, he said, I'm
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.179
not doing it unless, one, I can choose my own
00:43:19.179 --> 00:43:22.079
men, handpick them, because I know if I take
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.500
these people from Scotland Yard, it'll be out,
00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:27.539
we'll be out within minutes. And I don't want
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:29.340
to be based at Scotland Yard, you have to put
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:31.679
me somewhere else. And I want a cover story.
00:43:31.820 --> 00:43:33.579
I want a story that I'm doing something completely
00:43:33.579 --> 00:43:38.880
different. And his name was... Superintendent
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:42.619
Leonard Reed. His name was Nipper Reed. He was
00:43:42.619 --> 00:43:45.619
a very little man and he used to box. He had
00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:49.199
a nickname, Nipper Reed. And he put together
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:52.179
a team that finally caught them. They went to
00:43:52.179 --> 00:43:55.320
prison for the longest prison sentences for murder
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:59.079
this country has ever seen, even now. And the
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:03.219
judge said to them, he said, I think the public
00:44:03.219 --> 00:44:05.739
has earned a few years break from your activities.
00:44:06.460 --> 00:44:10.420
I would agree. So that's why my favorite murder
00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:13.860
cases, because although they kill a lot of people,
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:17.699
it did end with that day caught. Right. It just
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:21.579
took a little while. And the right person. Yes,
00:44:21.699 --> 00:44:25.639
exactly so. Exactly so. The Craig twins were
00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:28.159
intended into a deal with a well -known American
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:32.449
mafia family from Philadelphia. And they were
00:44:32.449 --> 00:44:35.449
going to take over London's gambling. And we
00:44:35.449 --> 00:44:38.690
came very, very close to having the Italian Mafia
00:44:38.690 --> 00:44:42.869
on British shores. And it just fell short of
00:44:42.869 --> 00:44:45.269
the final sort of deal stage between them. They
00:44:45.269 --> 00:44:48.710
couldn't agree to the terms. We were very fortunate
00:44:48.710 --> 00:44:54.969
not to have Chicago Mafia. And then you would
00:44:54.969 --> 00:44:58.969
have had to deal with both. Yes, exactly. That
00:44:58.969 --> 00:45:03.469
would have been awful. That was a new lamp. Never
00:45:03.469 --> 00:45:06.369
heard of that one. Well, if you're interested
00:45:06.369 --> 00:45:08.769
in the Craig twins, I mean, they were multiple
00:45:08.769 --> 00:45:11.809
murderers, very evil men. And yet the strange
00:45:11.809 --> 00:45:16.349
thing was they were celebrity criminals in their
00:45:16.349 --> 00:45:19.769
own part of London. And old ladies would say,
00:45:19.809 --> 00:45:24.409
oh, they're such nice, polite boys. And yet they
00:45:24.409 --> 00:45:26.449
just went around killing people. That was one
00:45:26.449 --> 00:45:31.619
of the things. It's crazy how that works. the
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:35.300
biggest criminals that most countries have that's
00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:37.139
what people all around them say they were so
00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:41.360
nice and polite and caring meanwhile they're
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:48.940
killing people yeah exactly um yeah i'll definitely
00:45:48.940 --> 00:45:51.800
i'll dive into my list and do some some looking
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:54.579
into them though they're very interesting Yeah,
00:45:54.619 --> 00:45:57.400
well, if anybody wants to read any of my books,
00:45:57.460 --> 00:45:59.980
they make a significant appearance in all of
00:45:59.980 --> 00:46:02.219
them until they get caught. The first eight books,
00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:06.900
especially books three to eight, there are people
00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:08.539
in the background or the people actually in the
00:46:08.539 --> 00:46:11.679
foreground committing all the crimes, which my
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:18.300
hero Charlie has to circumvent. Got to make his
00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:20.679
way around them so that way he can do his job.
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:27.039
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so tell all of our listeners
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:31.000
where they can find you, where they can find
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.099
all of your books. Well, they can look on my
00:46:35.099 --> 00:46:40.920
website, which is www .SimonMichaelAuthor .com.
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.760
It's SimonMichaelAuthor .com, and you'll see
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.440
references to all the books there. You can click
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.900
on any of the links and see all the reviews and
00:46:49.900 --> 00:46:51.440
the nice things people have said about them.
00:46:51.539 --> 00:46:53.340
And you can buy books that will take you directly
00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:56.780
to Amazon .com. I suppose some of them might
00:46:56.780 --> 00:46:59.599
go to Amazon .com UK, but I think they pretty
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:03.860
much all have US links in there as well. So that's
00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:06.780
where they can find those out. I haven't mentioned
00:47:06.780 --> 00:47:09.440
on the website the New American series yet. I
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:11.719
thought I'd wait until the first book is published.
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:14.719
So that will be next year. But hopefully there'll
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:20.380
be two series of John Grisham -like legal crime
00:47:20.380 --> 00:47:23.219
thrillers for them to follow. All right. Well,
00:47:23.300 --> 00:47:25.400
we will definitely keep an eye out for those.
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:31.019
I know I will because I love to read. So definitely
00:47:31.019 --> 00:47:33.420
keep an eye on those to see what you do with
00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:36.440
the criminal world here in the U .S. in your
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:45.199
books. Other than the American series, what is
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:50.659
coming in your literary or creative future? Well,
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:54.039
I have a speculative fiction book coming out
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.840
early January, also published by U .S. publishers.
00:47:58.019 --> 00:48:00.900
It will be available worldwide, but it's been
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.920
there until publishing it. And that's called
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.380
What's Left of Us. I'm very proud of that. It's
00:48:06.380 --> 00:48:10.539
written under my pseudonym. because I keep the
00:48:10.539 --> 00:48:12.500
crime thrillers under my own name, and anything
00:48:12.500 --> 00:48:15.639
else I do, so people don't get muddled, anything
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:20.159
else I do, it's under my pen name, Alex Craig.
00:48:21.699 --> 00:48:25.860
And there is the whole little clear and drop
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:29.239
sort of TV series. I'm very hopeful that something
00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:33.219
will come of that, but that's a rescue business.
00:48:33.929 --> 00:48:36.929
My agent used to say you have to try lining up
00:48:36.929 --> 00:48:42.429
every one of the planets in the solar system
00:48:42.429 --> 00:48:44.710
so they're all in a direct line before anything
00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:47.110
happens. You've got to get your director and
00:48:47.110 --> 00:48:49.730
your producers and the money and there's cars
00:48:49.730 --> 00:48:51.869
and there's a green light and everything's got
00:48:51.869 --> 00:48:54.690
to be perfectly in line and if any one of them
00:48:54.690 --> 00:48:56.610
falls out of line then the whole thing collapses
00:48:56.610 --> 00:49:00.550
again. Not getting too excited about that, but
00:49:00.550 --> 00:49:02.269
that would be terrific if they did make a TV
00:49:02.269 --> 00:49:06.070
series. Yes, definitely. I think based off of
00:49:06.070 --> 00:49:11.010
what I've seen of your books, the research that
00:49:11.010 --> 00:49:13.809
I did in preparation for today, I think it would
00:49:13.809 --> 00:49:18.150
be very interesting. And I think a lot of people
00:49:18.150 --> 00:49:23.400
would really draw to it as a TV show also. Perhaps
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:25.699
so. I've always had a little concern that the
00:49:25.699 --> 00:49:29.119
Americans don't really understand barristers.
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.800
They can't work out why they're wearing silly
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:34.400
wigs and gowns. The procedure in court is different.
00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:38.039
But if you like period drama, and I know that
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:41.639
the BBC, for example, produces period drama,
00:49:41.780 --> 00:49:44.719
which is very popular on the outside of the world.
00:49:45.019 --> 00:49:47.019
So if you like that sort of thing, but you also
00:49:47.019 --> 00:49:49.559
like a bit of death and murder and mayhem, then
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.460
hopefully I will, you know, I will. press all
00:49:52.460 --> 00:49:55.699
the right buttons right i i think you i think
00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:58.860
it's just gonna be your cup of tea in order to
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:01.420
like it there's um a lot of americans who watch
00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:05.460
um british television on a regular basis so i
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:10.820
think that if it goes into tv show um i think
00:50:10.820 --> 00:50:14.119
a lot of that that group of people that niche
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.780
would would love it i'm one of those uh i like
00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:25.019
those tv shows and Whether it's fiction or nonfiction,
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:30.239
it's just different. I like hearing the criminal
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:35.699
world and things from all places. Okay, good.
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:38.800
Well, I hope everyone feels the same way. Yeah,
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:40.719
I know there's plenty of people that would definitely
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.460
be interested. So hopefully that'll become a
00:50:43.460 --> 00:50:51.119
TV show soon, fingers crossed. Thank you. Aside
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.260
from that, do you have anything new coming up?
00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:57.420
Any new books in your series that will be coming
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:02.019
out soon? Yeah, well, I'm halfway through writing
00:51:02.019 --> 00:51:07.800
book 12. That will, the publishers will accept
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:11.019
that. I've only just finished book one in the
00:51:11.019 --> 00:51:13.739
American series and that's gone off to all the
00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:16.039
ways I met in the US for them to tell me where
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:18.360
I've got the procedure of the criminal law wrong.
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:20.760
Hopefully there won't be any big changes. So
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:24.179
that's off my desk at the moment. So I'm now
00:51:24.179 --> 00:51:26.320
looking at the new old one book and I'll get
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:28.960
that finished before the end of the summer. Then
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.579
that's just the right time to start editing the
00:51:31.579 --> 00:51:35.750
first. De Vries, the first American. The suit
00:51:35.750 --> 00:51:39.369
is to be called The English Lawyer. And I think,
00:51:39.369 --> 00:51:42.590
actually, the publishers are already trying to
00:51:42.590 --> 00:51:44.710
sell the movie rights. I think they're quite
00:51:44.710 --> 00:51:48.489
excited about it. So, back to another little
00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:51.889
pot bubbling away in the background. Lots of
00:51:51.889 --> 00:52:06.159
different stuff. I've been doing a very complicated
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:10.420
pronunciation guide for some American actor to
00:52:10.420 --> 00:52:16.300
understand what I'm talking about. All right.
00:52:16.340 --> 00:52:19.260
So I'm going to link your email. Oh, my goodness.
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:22.480
link to your website and the episode description
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.119
for this episode that way nobody has to go searching
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:26.940
for it or try to write it down really quickly
00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:29.619
it'll be right there with everything else um
00:52:29.619 --> 00:52:35.179
then i think that is all i have for this round
00:52:35.179 --> 00:52:38.420
uh you'll have to let us know once you're english
00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:45.099
or you're american there we go i had it it was
00:52:45.099 --> 00:52:48.469
right there uh when the english lawyer um is
00:52:48.469 --> 00:52:51.130
getting ready to go out or about to go out maybe
00:52:51.130 --> 00:52:57.889
we could do this again learning that book i'll
00:52:57.889 --> 00:53:01.969
keep you informed yeah just let me know we'll
00:53:01.969 --> 00:53:04.690
make sure to uh of all the links and everything
00:53:04.690 --> 00:53:07.090
for all of our listeners we'll bring you back
00:53:07.090 --> 00:53:09.650
on whenever that one comes out we can talk a
00:53:09.650 --> 00:53:12.409
little bit more about that one uh but i think
00:53:12.409 --> 00:53:14.789
unless you have anything else i think that is
00:53:14.789 --> 00:53:17.679
it for this one Well, it's been great fun. Thank
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.739
you very much indeed. Have a great Sunday. Thank
00:53:20.739 --> 00:53:22.699
you very much. Thank you. Not a problem. You
00:53:22.699 --> 00:53:26.159
too. And we will all sure be in touch. Okay.
00:53:26.739 --> 00:53:30.340
Bye. And y 'all listening, thank you for being
00:53:30.340 --> 00:53:33.320
here. I hope you enjoyed the bonus episode with
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:35.679
Simon and maybe you found your new book interest.
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:38.940
So make sure you check out Simon's website to
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:41.199
know exactly where you can get those books and
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:43.719
keep an eye out for The English Lawyer. his new
00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:45.880
book series based here in the U .S. that will
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:48.619
hopefully be hitting the shelves soon. But for
00:53:48.619 --> 00:53:50.340
now, that's all I have for you. I hope y 'all
00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:52.679
enjoyed your 4th of July weekend. We will be
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:56.000
back on the 13th. And until then, make sure you
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.800
watch for monsters, don't kill people, and I'll
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:00.400
catch y 'all then. Bye, y 'all.