Chris Wilson

Danny: There's a time when I got high, but it is not What you thinking? I was up on the stage taking a page out of the book. I was reading how we were shot. That stage I was both the pool wouldn't be there soon. Hello and welcome to Mere Mortals. Today we are talking to one of the most prolific and interconnected drummers in American indie punk, the amazing Chris Wilson, who has spent decades playing in just a shocking number of incredible bands, including Ted Leo and the Pharmacists, Titus Andronicus, and Hammered Hulls, whom I just heard ⁓ recently myself. And if you have not heard them, you need to fix your life and go check them out because they are rad. ⁓ this was a Particularly exciting conversation for me because Tedlio and the Pharmacists has been a incredibly important band to me for a long time. ⁓ I think Jason and I probably heard them together for the first time. ⁓ and that would have been ⁓ tyranny of distance, ⁓ which Chris did not play on, on that record, but he did join right after that. We'll we'll talk about that during the interview. ⁓ and he's played with Tedlio ever since. But ⁓ Jason and I would have heard them when that record came out. And I know that Ted Leo has been a, you know, just Ted Leo and the Pharmaceutic has been a very big influence on both Jason and me. ⁓ Jason, being the drummer of the two of us, has a much more expert and informed opinion on drumming than I do. But even as a drummer-lay person, I suppose, ⁓ watching Chris play, as I've gotten the pleasure of doing ⁓ many times now, has ⁓ been just a transcendent experience each time. He's incredible. ⁓ and just so professional. ⁓ and yeah. So so yeah, so g getting to to talk to Chris and just the fact that he was willing to talk to us and and open to to doing this interview was super exciting for me. and ⁓ and yeah, I hope you all enjoy it as well. ⁓ thank you to Chris for taking the time and thank you to all for listening. So please enjoy Chris Wilson. Hello and welcome to Mere Mortals. ⁓ this week our guest is Chris Wilson, one of my absolute favorite drummers of all time. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Thank you for being here. Of course. ⁓ we're gonna talk about all of your numerous bands. ⁓ but I think, you know, as many do, I'd like to go back to the beginning. ⁓ you came up in Arkansas, correct? That's right. Were you in Little Rock? ⁓ grew up in Hot Springs and then I moved to Little Rock. ⁓ from ages twenty one to twenty-five. What was the music scene like and and sort of what what pulled you into it? At what point did you realize, hey, I wanna play instruments? getting MTV in I guess probably nineteen eighty six or so was the you know, seeing that live. And at right at that time I grew up in with my grandparents. ⁓ And I lived in my uncle's room and just one day I was going through the drawers of this desk and there were some drumsticks in there. So I just started air drumming along to hair metal videos and that was kind of what started my path, I guess. And I got a drum set later that year from a pawn shop. but yeah, so there wasn't really any music scene in Hot Springs at that time. ⁓ But then, you know, when I was in high school, a friend of mine and I were playing just like punk covers in my grandparents' garage and we had a couple quote unquote shows there that were probably the first shows in Hot Springs ever. I would love to know if that is incorrect, because I don't I've never heard of any anything happening before. Yeah. To the best of your knowledge, there weren't like a a ton of all ages venues around to go to. Not at all. but yeah, there was stuff happening in Little Rock already at that time. And I was a huge fan of of that stuff. And that's kind of you know what definitely what drew me to move there years later. The MTV thing is interesting. There's there's a movie called Towncraft that's about the punk scene in Little Rock. Yeah. And ⁓ one of the most memorable lines in it For me, is about how punk wasn't really there. It was in New York. And so people were getting magazines that were coming in, seeing like, okay, well, this is what punk looks like. So if we dress like this, then we'll be punk. And okay, somebody like dropped some tapes by. So if we sound like that, then we'll be punk. And kind of building that up, or you know, going off MTV more so than just like seeing bands come through and be like, ⁓ cool, I want to do that. Did you did you kind of like understand that? a possible progression was I wanna play drums live in front of people, I wanna be on stages. Did you have desires to, you know, tour from a young age or anything? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I I yeah, I I wanted to Yeah. Like I definitely wanted to, you know, perform and ⁓ yeah and do the whole thing. That was yeah, that was all I wanted to do. And I think finding punk was what made it possible. You know, like I n I think I knew from a pretty young age that I was never gonna be as good as Alex Van Halen or you know, Wild McBrown or some of these other guys that I was seeing on on MTV. But ⁓ but yeah, punk definitely made it, you know, more ⁓ you know, ex more realistic, I guess, you know. Yeah. What was on ⁓ T V right like around then? ⁓ That that like to your point, I you know, I remember those kind of like early eighties MTV was so hair medley. ⁓ yeah. Those guys were so technical that it did feel almost unattainable. And they never talked about how they grew up with music lessons or like were savants. but some of them were. Like what what were you identifying with or what were you seeing on MTV or listening to on the radio that made you go, Yeah, that seems that seems like the direction. ⁓ you know, I don't No, I don't know. Because a lot of those bands are more ⁓ guitar heavy. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but guitar's never computed to me. Like I don't understand it at all. I can only play drums and that's it. But I don't know. Like I guess if you you know, if you simplify those songs, they're you know, I mean they're basically just pop songs. A lot of those hair metal songs. That's what I was drawn to, like Dock and Rat and you know, all those hair metal bands were just on MTV twenty four seven back then. ⁓ but like yeah, I mean learning to play, like the first song I learned to play was Looks That Kill by Motley Crue. And it's you know, that's a pretty four on the four four on the floor song. Yeah. ⁓ was that still just was that still air drumming or was that by the time you got the ⁓ pawn chop kit? That was the first song I learned on the pawn chop kit. Took me a while to incorporate ⁓ my feet. To everything 'cause I was just airdrumping. So you know, I feel like I had the arms down for a little while and then the kick drum took me like a good six months to get that going. And then the hi hat foot took me years and years to get to get all four limbs working independently of each other, you know. That's so funny. I hadn't thought of that, but I I think when I was maybe like seven or eight Around there I started I I nailed some paper plates to a two by four and ⁓ my dad had a friend who'd like given us some drumsticks and I was kind of air drumming along with Peter Chris and ⁓ then I remember by the time I got a drum set it was like, ⁓ wait, you gotta do this other stuff here? ⁓ this makes it way harder. Totally, yeah. Yeah, you don't really see that on TV, you know. Yeah. Damn drummers. I know. Yeah. ⁓ how long ⁓ after the move to Little Rock, ⁓ what were what were the bands kind of leading up to Shake Grey Turbine? ⁓ my bands, the bands I was in. Yeah. I was so my the first band I was in was called Well, the the guy that I was playing with, who it was just him and I, just guitar and drums. We couldn't even find a bass player to play a lot to play with us. we started the first band was called self explanatory. Then we found Straight Edge Hardcore, changed the names of the martyrs. And then we finally, senior year, found a couple of people to play with and we changed the name to Substratum and we played a few shows. then ⁓ I was in this band called Fuse of Ire for a little while. It was like kind of a hardcore band. ⁓ well we thought we were a hardcore band. We more wanted to sound like Neurosis than anything, but That's a solid hardcore band name. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and then I fell in with these young kids because I was, I think, like 19 or 20. And I started playing music with these high schoolers that I just knew from skateboarding. ⁓ and we had a band called Bobby Snooks that was kind of like the early gravity record stuff, like heroin, anti ocero, those bands, just like really fast. what you might call Screamo these days. Sure. ⁓ and then we had a band called Basil after that. And that was that was kinda along the same lines, like Mohinder, heroin. ⁓ and then two of those guys left or got kicked out, depending on who you talk to. Tell us the story. We'll reach out to them tomorrow. ⁓ and there was a band in Little Rock called William Martyr seventeen that I they're one of my favorite bands of all time. their drummer died in a car accident. the like that December of nineteen ninety four. So those dudes left in January, like, you know, a month or two later, and we got I don't even know how it happened, but the bass player from William Martyr. became the bass player for Basil and the singer from William Martyr became the singer for Basil. And we did like a week-long tour, went up to More than Music Festival in Columbus, and back. And we were gonna do a split LP with ⁓ this man called Constantine Sacati, who were also like a kind of emo screamo band. ⁓ but it all just fizzled out before we ever even got in the studio. so then that summer when everything fizzled out, Clay from Basil and I, that he was the bass player. He and I started Shake Rate Turbine. He moved a guitar. And ⁓ yeah, and we got Ben Dickey, who was still in in high school at that time, and Dustin, who was also in William R17 with Clay, and he was also in a band called Soupy Nun Squad. So that was the Nice big little rock connection. Yeah. So that that's ⁓ sorry, Jason, go ahead. No, just Sophie Mountain Squad shows up in ⁓ Towncraft. Yes. ⁓ that's where that's where I learned about him. Yeah. I was in that film briefly a couple of times, but and I gotta rewatch it. I think I said it was such a bummer. They were asking us about ⁓ that summer in ninety five there's a venue called Das Yutzagogo. It's an amazing place, right downtown Little Rock in an old department store, but downtown was just a ghost town, so you could do whatever you wanted. ⁓ And I the one one of my few quotes was that I feel like everyone, you know, there was a show every night and by August everyone was burned out. And like people kind of slowed going to shows. So, you know, I feel like one of my few quotes in that documentary was just a bummer, you know. Like it was such an amazing thing that was happening. So You nothing is all sunshine and rainbow. So you gotta get a way to stay grounded. Any good nineties music scene also needs like a bunch of like discontent. Yes. Yeah. That's true. Yep. ⁓ so I during this time, like you said, you're in little little rock like the ages like twenty one and twenty five or so. So like that's a time when a lot of people are thinking about sort of like careers, their futures. Like you're playing in bands at that point. Is there a question your mind that like music is what you want to do and what you're gonna keep doing? Or are you getting like influences from people around you kind of trying to push you in other directions? Like No, not that was the only thing I wanted to do, period. Like I didn't I went to a community college for a year and that just did not was not working for me at all. and then yeah, once I started playing in these bands and touring, that was it. I just would work. You know, we all worked at This pizza restaurant in Little Rock, but you know, there was no thought of having a career, you know. Which, you know, for better or worse. You just knew that you were destined to hit the road and play music. Yeah, ⁓ yeah. I was gonna make it work one way or another, you know. It didn't matter if I was dead broke all the time. I that's what I was gonna do. So right then, in that in that age, you're you're in your early twenties, you've committed. This is going, this is what I'm doing. What what did it sound like to you to make it? Like what would have been like, okay, I'm good, I'm happy, I've done it at that point. God, at that point, I mean well, right before that, all I wanted on earth was to put out a record on File 13 records in in Little Rock, the Little Rock label. do you know, that and play a show at the Belvedere, which was the place that the you know illegal all the illegal shows happened. That was that was success to me. And then that of course, you know, changed to I don't know, just like I don't know what success looked like at that point, you know, being in a kind of a mostly DIY band. It definitely wasn't, you know, there weren't even as many like booking agents or, you know, for bands of that level at that time, really. So I mean, yeah, I just would have carried on The you know, I mean, yeah, success was just having someone interested in putting out your record and yeah, you know, being able to travel. That was that was it really. Was there touring happening with those bands? Yeah. Yeah. Shakery Turbine toured quite a bit. We did like three Midwest East Coast tours and one West Coast tour. That was y I mean, d you know, ca it could be considered disastrous. It could be considered a a total Blast, which I a common theme so far has been West Coast tours are hell. Yeah. Well, so our first one, we ⁓ it was just so hard to get shows. I don't know, I don't know. But we ⁓ we pieced enough together to make make it worth leaving town, you know. ⁓ so we had like Fayetteville, Columbia, Missouri, Lincoln, Nebraska, then like four days off and nothing between Lincoln, Nebraska and LA. So we we went to Denver and we're like, well just, you know, go to Denver, see what's going on. Went to a record store, Rog from the Crypt's playing. So we go see them. We ran into a guy that we knew from Memphis who was house setting a house for the summer in Boulder and he like, Hey Rod from the Crypt is playing tomorrow in Boulder. Come and stay with me for a couple days. Great. So we did that and then we, you know, made it to LA. Played LA. Great show in San Diego with ⁓ Tristeza and Boilermaker. at ⁓ Shea Cafe. And then San Francisco fell through. couple other on the other end fell through and we got to Sacramento to the chick chick chick house and one of the guys is like ⁓ yeah opened the door and said ⁓ yeah I was supposed to set up a show for you guys ⁓ no shit like at that moment we were like and ⁓ it's time to go home like yeah before we get any further away so we partied with them that night and then drove forty two hours straight back to But it was it was totally worth it. You know, a couple of members of the band had never seen a snow cap peak in their entire life. You know. So it was it was a big life you know, life not life changing, but you know. Perspective altering. Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah. I I really liked that was something I really liked about touring in that regard, was like You know, you can go to cities and see the touristy stuff, but when you go and hang out with like hang out in the scene and like meet the people and experience the kind of like, you know, the indie rock or punk culture there, like, I don't know. You just kinda like you get a different view of the country, which is really cool. So Totally. I mean, remember those times when you would just go to like the cool area of town and yeah see what's happening. Like personal by a record. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean try to figure out if there was a skate park around so you can find your people and Yes. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. There wasn't there was never much communication between the Memphis and Little Rock scenes, which was always kind of weird to me. They're only two hours apart, but there were a couple times that we would go up to Shangri-La Records and you know, there would be a flyer on the door, be like, That's tonight. We're just gonna stick around. For the show, you know? So yeah. Yeah. ⁓ obviously pre internet, not like, ⁓ hey, we should ⁓ go check out who's playing a couple hours away because we know that the show's coming up, so you just stumble on some rad shows. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. ⁓ at as ⁓ I think it was towards the e I mean the end. The the last show with Shake Ray Turbine, was that opening for Fugazi? It was, yeah. Yeah. That's ⁓ that's a pretty ⁓ pretty solid way to end a band. Absolutely. Did yeah literal bucket list. Yes. Yeah. Did that feel like an an ending? Were you sort of, you know, looking forward to all right, now there here's the next chapter 'cause I've got plans. I want to continue doing music, or was it like, ⁓ no, this is coming to an end, even though it was an awesome way to end it? ⁓ I don't even think it was in the intentional end. Like we had ⁓ We had another record written that was never just lost lost a time. Like we didn't even demo any of it, didn't track any of it. but ⁓ Ben moved to Philadelphia. I've I think before that show, like he I think he flew back to play that show. ⁓ but we just kinda came to the realization that there was no way to make you you know, make make us living there and him living, you know, a thousand miles away work with the amount of money we didn't make, you know. so yeah, so that was part of what got me to Philadelphia. And Clay actually wound up here too. and we had a band with actually all four of us wound up here, but we started a band with out the bass player with a different bass player, Philadelphia, ⁓ Philadelphian named Jeb Bell, called the Unfixers. ⁓ and we recorded a full record that we did manage to get in the studio and record, but it's never been put out. It's not streaming anywhere. It's just just sitting there for over twenty five years now. Will that ever change? I mean I've you know I've thought about with You know, with all these reissues happening all over the place, especially of nineties stuff. I would like I think I don't think Shake Ray Tarb will ever play another show or anything or make this worth anyone's while. You know what I mean? Like worth worth a label's while, but I would love to see that record on vinyl. And I have thought like it would be kinda cool to do a deluxe thing with the the Unfixers record. Tacked onto it, but who knows if it'll ever happen. But I would love you know, it would be cool to get that thing streaming at some point just so people can hear it. Because I think we played like maybe twenty shows around Philly. Did a weekend with Adam and his package down to South Carolina and Richmond once, but that was that was like it. So one of the one of the funnest shows I've ever seen was Adam and his package. I was yeah. I just saw him at ⁓ at the No Kings protest earlier this year. So nice. Yeah. And I've and I've seen his son a few times recently. His son's in a couple bands and ⁓ right on. Yeah. I saw him at ⁓ he he played Fest this year. I saw I saw him down in down in Gainesville. Killing. Nice. Yeah. Wow. Adam was kind of a revelatory moment for me. I remember seeing Adam and his package play a show, and after I was I had I didn't know anything about what he did until I showed up at the show. I think it was him and Harmar Superstar. ⁓ yeah. They did a big tour together. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great show. Blew my mind. And I walked in like totally blind. And then of course afterwards was just like, fuck, that was incredible. And then went out back to the venue to try and like shake hands and just say I loved your music so much. Thank you. And he was, you know, packing stuff up into the back of his car. Yeah. And like, you know, and it was that was when it kind of hit me. I was like ⁓ man, that was great. This show was like sold out. It was packed. Everyone had a good time. Everyone was dancing and jumping up and down. And then like, this guy's gonna get in his, you know, tutor and get on down the highway and do it again. Absolutely. I guess that's kind of what it is. I don't think I knew that until that moment. So Yeah. That that is like you get to peel the curtain back a little bit and and see that for better or worse, they're like, ⁓ these people are on stage, they're famous rock stars, and then realizing like if you are At least half decent at playing music, you can probably book a show and and and get on stage, but it can feel like pretty unattainable. Yeah. Especially at that time, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So after the Unfixers ended, you were playing in some Math Rock bands, a Van Morrison was it a Van Morrison cover project or just sort of Van Morrison inspired? It was Van Van Morrison inspired. That was the holy childhood. And that was Ted's youngest brother. Danny. Yes. Yes. So yeah, so after well, like kind of around the same time as on Fixers, I ⁓ did a couple tours with Shawn Anna, who is Harmar. Mm-hmm. and we recorded a couple songs in Boston with Ted. ⁓ and played with the laps at that time. So that was like kind of how I got to know like all three Leo brothers within a very short amount of time was through Sean. but I did a big tour with the holy childhood, played in the laps briefly, did a tour with this guy Matt Pond, PA. Yeah. And that was that tour was ⁓ just down to South by Southwest and back when that was a thing that people did. And I guess people still do that all the time, but ⁓ But I ran into Ted there at the lookout showcase and I told him like I think three times before that, just like, hey man, you ever need a drummer? Like I know this thing's a revolving door, but if you ever need a drummer, like I'm I am available. and that time I was like, All right, I'm just gonna do this one more time, you know? I was like, Hey man, just throwing it out there one more time. You ever need a drummer? He was like, I'm leaving on tour in a month, you're it like if you can do it, you're in. And I was like, Okay. So that was the tyranny of distance record, right? Yes. Yeah. That was right before he had just finished recording that. Okay. before he went down to South by South South by Southwest. And it came out, I think, June of that year, which was twenty five years ago this year. but yeah, I went down to DC for a few practices and then we like we couldn't we also couldn't find a bass player for a while. Like he was just calling everyone, him and James. and Danny suggested Dave, Dave Lerner, who was they were bandmates in native native nod together. and yeah, that was the next, you know, geez, six years of my life until he left and Marty came in. But yeah. Yeah. Just hit the ground running with that. That must have been a really difficult record to learn. I mean, like that's a really dynamic record, right? Just like a week to learn that record sounds bonkers. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, and like, you know, Seb played drums on that record. His stuff was super hard to learn. ⁓ Seb from Trans Am and now Bar Baroness, and ⁓ and she's yeah, Brendan plays a song on it, Brendan Canty, who's absolutely my favorite drummer of all time. So So you you've said that playing Ted's music was you know harder than stuff that you had ⁓ played previously and and and you know, playing like math rock bands and stuff. What was it that made Ted's songs so much more difficult? just like like learning someone else's drum parts, I guess. You know, like when I don't know, when you're making When you're like writing drum parts to songs that are in the process of being written, I find that easier than learning stuff that's I don't know, that's not sh I I don't know, that's not always true though. but I don't know. Like find it you know, learning someone else's parts and making them your own is is a process, I think, you know. It's it didn't like I thought that it would come easier to me than it did back then. Now it's easier, but ⁓ Yeah, that was it was a challenge at that fr that first those first couple tours for sure. It is a fun way that I think that makes us better players. ⁓ w I've played in you know, b bunch of bands, done a bunch of like cover shows and tribute nights and stuff, and ⁓ I remember talking to somebody who was like, You know, every time I do one of these tribute no ⁓ tribute shows, I feel like I come out like a better drummer and a or a better guitarist or whatever. And my buddy was like, Well yeah, you dumbass. Like you're practicing. That's what you're you're you're playing. ⁓ that's right. I'm I'm doing something that is a little bit out of my wheelhouse. Like I play drums, but I don't play drums like that and I want it to sound like that. I want it to sound true to the original and so I've gotta sort of up my game a little bit. Totally, yeah. Same. ⁓ and before the ⁓ that that tour, you you had what, just a handful of ⁓ rehearsals with Ted before you went out? Yeah, I think it was maybe three like three or four. Yeah. Yeah. And then we did like a month long tour with Q opening up for Q and Not U and Yeah. And yeah, it was it was a wild year. That first year we you know, we did that tour. Tacked on an extra week and a half to go up to Canada and back just just us. And then the record came out and we toured with Juno, who were from your neck of the woods. Love this guy. and then ⁓ yeah, and then we didn't have anything booked at that time, but then 9-11 happened and everything was like kind of up in the air for a minute, but we wound up leaving early October and we didn't get back until mid-December. Yeah. And then Dismemberit Plan called and they were like, Hey, would you guys want to do a couple weeks with us? We're like, Yes, and then Runner Maria called and they're like, Would you want to attack on another week and do a Northeast of us? Like, yes. So we just like kept tacking on stuff and we were gone for like two months with a little break around Thanksgiving. Yeah. ⁓ the craziest thing about that was those those Renam Maria shows, I think there were just like four of ⁓ but the opening band of three were Yah yeah yes. It was like their third, fourth, and fifth shows ever. Yeah. And we were all already like this we'll never see this man again. Like we're never they are they're they're gonna move right by. They are on the bigger and better things from here on like they they were incredible. Everyone was just blown away by that band from the get-go. That's amazing. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean you're describing so many things that like each of the things you're describing would be like a pinnacle moment for me. Right. I got to play with this never been played, I got to play with quasi, q. During that time, like was there a like kind of a pinnacle moment where you just kind of like looked around and realized that you hadn't paused to kind of realize what was going on, where you were like where you were, what was happening? Many I'd say there were many moments. I like it's kinda yeah, it's kind of hard to slow down and take it all in while it's happening. But I mean there were a couple couple moments like on that first tour, we played ⁓ this place called the Medicine Hack Gallery in Portland. And I remember like we were setting up and Janet Weiss and Sarah Lund were sitting at a table together. And I was like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like, I have to play drums in front of these two right now? Like what the hell? but you know, they were all friends with ⁓ with Ted and James from before. But I was like, you know, just being in that orbit with these people was just a wild thing. but then like, you know. On the next record, Hearts of Oak, we were on Conan O'Brien and that was like that was something, you know, that was something I never I never thought I'd be on national television. Was that your first time on national TV? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was yeah, that wasn't a goal of mine. That was something I never thought would happen, but it was that definitely legitimized everything to my family. Yeah, then they see they can see you on TV and then wow. That's right. That's right. I knew Chris played music. I didn't realize it mattered. Totally, yeah. Yeah. And my great grandmother got to see me, like she she passed a couple years after that, but you know, she wasn't gonna go to a show, but she could see me on TV, so that was an amazing thing, you know? And she knew you were making it. That's fantastic. So cool. Yeah. Did you sleep worse the night before or the night after? ⁓ I'm just I guess I can let me reiter or ⁓ rephrase that a little bit. I can imagine the nerves the night before ish knowing you're gonna p play on Conan. Yeah. He was huge then and like that was a big deal. Our whole generation within yeah I imagine you're a couple years older. Jason might be a year younger than me. Like but our whole area, Conan was a big deal. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ I would have been terrified, but then after it happens and it's done, I don't know if I sleep that night. Like I'd be so wired, I guess. I mean, it definitely was, for sure. I d I mean I remember like I think we got I went up to North Jersey and saved a Ted and we I think we got picked up by like, you know, the whole thing's like union run. So like everything's like on a tight schedule, but also like they can send a van. to North Jersey to pick you and your gear up. So I think we had a call at like seven AM. So I don't think I slept very good either way that night. Yeah. Waking up that early and then it's all day long and then it happens and then you're just fucking wired. And and I think I went out for a drink with everyone and then went just took a train back to Philly that night. So yeah. But that one wasn't like the don't I don't remember being super nervous that time or the next one, but When we did Fallon, that was the third and last one that we did. And I remember there's this footage of the jam playing on BBC probably. And ⁓ the drummer loses a stick. Right the last fill of the song, stick just goes flying in the air, and he just stands up and walks off. And during sound check for that one, I you're like on it was a higher stage than the coded one. And I Just hooked the rim of my rag Tom and it just went and fell and landed upside down on the floor. And I was like, holy fuck. If that like I was nervous about that happening during taping, because you're one and done, you know. Yeah. But I yeah, I somehow made it through all three of them without a catastrophic disaster, you know. So That's the worst feeling when you like ⁓ If you fuck something up, especially like a couple times in a row in practice, and then you're like, okay, I gotta not do that. Right. And now I'm thinking only about not doing that, which means I'm definitely gonna do that. Yeah, it's never like, ⁓ well, I got that out of the way. You know, it's gonna be smooth sailing from here on out. It's just like that's absolutely gonna happen again. I'll get it out of the way on national TV. Right. And that'll just Homer Simpson into the bushes for the rest of my life. ⁓ man. So ⁓ Hearts of Oak, you're on Conan. Yeah. Shake the Sheets is ⁓ a huge political success. My dog just walked in. This is Elvis. ⁓ hi Elvis. Hey Elvis. You say hi to everybody. I got I got to meet Elvis last year. Or it was the year before, yeah. He he remembers you. Wanted to say hi. Great dog. Say hi to Chris. Thank you. so were there were there moments there like as it's kinda more and more like bigger and better things. Were you sort of like, this is it, th we've made it. We've we've n I not necessarily we've we've peaked, but like we've we've got to the place that we're we're trying to get to. Or like you said, it's kinda hard to in the moment maybe take stock and think that way. Were you sort of still just like, what's next? We gotta get bigger and better and keep this thing going full speed. ⁓ I I think I n I felt like we had hit our pe I don't know, it was crazy 'cause like from from Hearts of Oak up to Living with the Living, it was just like it just kept building and I kinda couldn't believe it, know. And it just it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And then but I think once we hit the point where we were doing like two nights at the L ray in Los Angeles and two nights at Great American Music Hall in San Francisco and Two nights at nine thirty club. Like that was I felt like it couldn't get any bigger than that and it didn't. so maybe I was a little bit prepared for the down downside from that point. You kinda you had a feeling that like this trajectory can't last forever. Yeah. I mean it would have been real nice to be at that level forever. So that that's kind of the perfect level, I think. Like doing two nights at a thousand capacity room. You know, I think once I mean I wouldn't know, but it seems like once you hit that three thousand capacity and you're you know, we kn we did one bus tour, but back then we weren't doing buses. I feel like that's another success ⁓ identifier too is you know, bus touring. but yeah, I think we were at the you know, I could have lived at that level forever. And it's kinda you know, it's cool to see certain bands that can maintain that. Like The mountain goats are one that come to mind where it seems like they're always just like playing these s you know, big venues and selling them out and it doesn't get any smaller for sure, you know? Right. Yeah. It's it's but it doesn't need to get bigger too. I think that's a really interesting point. Like when we ⁓ when we're trying to talk about success and fame and what that means as an artist, ⁓ or an entertainer, I guess. ⁓ I think it's fascinating to me that you hit on something really beautiful and really important there, which is that there is a certain spot you can get to where like this is kind of what it's about. We're playing to a lot of people. They're having a great time. They're buying tickets. They're buying enough tickets where we can do this twice at some of the best venues in the country. ⁓ but maybe when you get past that it probably does become something else. For sure. And we we hear stories about that and they're not always all that desirable. But that's you know. That's true. and like You know, for my for myself, like I've never been you know the difference between a concert and a show? You know, like a concert's like a production at like an arena, say, or like a shed, you know. Yeah. Like ten thousand and up, probably. That's you know, my definition of like a concert, I guess. Okay. ⁓ and then, you know, a show's just a show. But so I haven't been to many concerts in my entire life. Or been to thousands of shows. So there's, you know, like so me saying that my definition of success is doing, you know, being able to have a great show at a thousand capacity venue, but those three thousand capacity venues, like, I don't even go to those. Right. As a music lover or as a patron. You know. Right. Where like in Philly, for instance, like I'll go to Union Transfer all the time. I love that venue. It's like 800 to 1100 capacity. But then the Fillmore is two blocks from my house. And it's a 3,000 cap venue. And I've been there twice. I hate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The sound's not as good. The bigger it's totally the worse it sounds, the worse your view is, the less intimate, the less you can feel the band. Like Yeah. The more the just the vibe in general from the you know, the ticket taker being padded down at the front. R you know, the at the entrance, like everything is just kind of a drag. Yeah. And like you know, for some people like that's their big night out for the week and you know, just it's it's always weird to me. Yeah. So you you mentioned like we were kinda up to like living with the living or whatever, so around two thousand seven, that's about the time I think Dave left as okay. I mean, so that's kinda interesting 'cause like you're talking about how like it's kind of like you felt like that was like a sweet spot. Like that was an ideal time. Like it'd be great if if it could be like this essentially forever, I think is is, you know, what you said. but Dave, like clearly that wasn't what he was looking for at the time. He, you know, needed something else. Like, was that a moment for you where you were kinda like, Is this what I wanna is this what I wanna keep doing, right? Like, I mean I can imagine that the momentum of of of being in a band, you know, with Ted Leo and and doing all that would be you know, it'd be really easy to get caught up in that and maybe not even question like, do I want to keep doing this just because things move so fast? But maybe Dave's exit, like, was there a moment of self refle reflection there for for you? No. Not at all. No. I think Dave Dave always kind of wanted to play other music, you know. which he's been doing for the last jeez, like almost twenty years now, you know? like it you know, that like He was he was never a big ⁓ punk guy, you know. he was an amazing bass player for that band. But ⁓ but yeah, he lo he liked other music a lot more. So it it made it made sense for him to leave. It was kinda funny that the you know, his very last show was the biggest headlining show we ever did. And it wasn't like it wasn't like, you know, it was all downhill from that point. But ⁓ But yeah, we did this crazy show at McCarran Park Pool in Brooklyn with the thermals. And I forget how many people it was, but it was crazy I like I looked up a picture of that not too long ago and it was insane how big that was. And I definitely didn't take that in at the time. ⁓ but yeah. But yeah, I did not I I didn't I didn't question if it was time for me to to leave or not then. Yeah. For sure, yeah. Was ⁓ there any sort of like ⁓ shit, what are we gonna do moment? Or was it a pretty quick like Marty's gonna be here tomorrow sort of thing? ⁓ it wa there was a little ⁓ shit 'cause we we had to get our our tour manager to fill in on base for three shows. ⁓ one of those being Bumper Shoot in two thousand seven. ⁓ Jason Wood from the band Engine Down. ⁓ filled in for we did Oakland, we did that, and then we did the show at NYU. That was it was one of those shows that was like you know, like students sign up for it and then once you're in the door you find out who's playing. We're just like I I mean what if people are bummed out by this, you know? That's that made me so uncomfortable. Like what's gonna help you wanna be here. And that wound up being it was us, ⁓ That band Aloha, who I I love, they're a polyvinal band. and Beirut was the other band. ⁓ wow, nice. and it was yeah, it was so weird. Nobody left, I don't think, you know, but it was just such a weird concept. Yeah. Like go to this thing. We'll tell you what it is after you get there. Like ⁓ Blind the original blind bag was going to see ⁓ now nowadays you can buy a toy and a little foil wrapped thing and you don't know what it is till you open it. That's right. Well that doesn't have any human beings involved, you know, on the those little toys you open had feelings. Yeah, exactly. Every time you open one, I've already got this one. Have you not seen Toy Story? Do you not know how it works? Pardon me. I stand corrected. ⁓ so that's ⁓ Living with the Living tour. Mm-hmm. And and then ⁓ Brutalist Bricks, was that the first time that Ted Leo and the pharmacist was ⁓ hit the billboard charts? I don't think so. I think the lookout records did, but I'm not positive. I do remember yeah, 'cause there was a time when there was like a brief moment, like when Arcade Fire were like You know, before they completely blew up, where like we were kind of like neck and neck with them on some like maybe indie or modern rock chart or something like that. And then they obviously won that battle. Also for But you didn't want to win that battle, you know. They went up to the big rooms and you said, You can have it. I don't wanna do that. And other questionable things, yeah. ⁓ During the then seven year gap ⁓ between those two Ted Leo albums, what what was going on for you? You you started playing with Titus Andronicus and started a handful of other bands? Yeah. Yeah, that so that was that was I don't know, that that's been kind of one of the hardest times of my music career was like During that whole that Brutal Sprix thing went from March two thousand ten until November two thousand eleven. We were like gone constantly. And in most interviews that Ted gave at that time, he would say, you know, I'm like really like thinking about dialing back this touring thing a little bit. ⁓ so like we all knew that that was in his mind, but I didn't think that we would. play I th we I think we played under twenty shows in the next six years. Like I didn't think it would dial I don't think he knew it either that he would dial it back at that time. Cause we in I think it was like 2012 or 13, he and I started messing around with new songs. and then the both happened. And I think that kind of put this on the on the shelf for a little while. I don't yeah, I don't think that the intention was to like completely like dial it back for a full six years. but yeah so I you know I've kind of always worked jobs. ⁓ and I was working at a law office a few days a week and then I had a band ⁓ band here called Hound. ⁓ like a motorhead kind of hard rock band. and yeah and then I lost my job at the law office my last day was the last day of 2015. Four days later, Patrick from Titus Andronicus asked me if I wanted to join the band. So and then that What timing? Yeah, I know. It was really amazing. Yeah. And I met my now wife ⁓ two days before that, which was kind of funny, you know, that she took a chance on a freshly unemployed guy who's gonna go off. And tour with this band for, you know, three out of the next nine months. But ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Funny timing. Yeah. If how I don't know what what I'm asking, how what do you what do you feel about when you're playing in four or five bands simultaneously? Is is that are you especially kind of coming off the Ted Leo stuff where you're this is where I am comfortable, I'm happy I made it to this level, this is where I want to stay. And then suddenly you're playing you said less than twenty shows over the course of six years. did that feel like a setback or were you kind of excited to see what comes next? It was you know, it was know. Like y you it was it was still all I wanted to do on Earth. ⁓ and I I had a couple auditions with a couple bands that did not turn out. but yeah, I don't know. I think I I think I did just figure I'd keep plugging along and something would happen. Like either the pharmacist would get back going or you know, or something something would come my way somehow. Just if I keep working, you know. That's how it happened in the first place, is just keep you know, just don't stop. How did ⁓ while you were not stopping, ⁓ hammered holes came to be. ⁓ yeah. Right? Yeah. ⁓ w how how did that come to be? ⁓ that Mark Cisneros and I had talked for a bunch of years about, you know I've I've had this with a couple people. Like ⁓ I was also in a band ⁓ in Chicago called Acquaintances. ⁓ we put out two records and we only ever played three shows, but ⁓ but that was a thing where Justin Sinkovich, who was in Adam On Pocket Knife and Thumbnail, ⁓ he and I had been talking forever about like just like, hey, like let's play music together sometime. Like, you know, doesn't even have to be anything but like let's just, you know. Like if you're I don't know, I feel like if you're a cool person, a nice person and you're, you know, okay at what you do and you make these connections, like, you know. Like people will want to play with you. So so that's what happened with acquaintances. And similar thing with Hammered Holes was Mark and I just talked for years about wanting to be in a band together. and then once he was, you know, once he was like, Hey, I got a bunch of songs, like let's let's start making this happen. Who else do we get? ⁓ I'd been Alec Mackay had come up on stage a couple times and like he sang an ignition song. with the pharmacist once and we covered a faith song with him on vocals once. And every time I would be like, hey man, like he'll say he was never retired, but I always use the word retired. I was like, hey if you ever want to come out of retirement and like join this band, you know, like I'll be your drummer. And so Mark and I I think both threw him out there as like that's who we want to sing for us. And ⁓ I remember I saw Saw him at the black hat one night and I was like, Hey, Mark's got some songs if you ever wanna if you ever wanna get, you know, if you ever wanna step behind the mic again and his wife was behind him and she was like, Yes, yes, yes, yes, make it happen. Get him out of the house. So that was it it happened shortly after that. what year w what year was that? That was ⁓ I wanna say two thousand eighteen. And we played our first show in two thousand nineteen, so it may have even no, it was yeah. It was seventeen or eighteen when we got together, but it was a slow process 'cause, you know, me being up here and them all being down there. And Mark is insanely busy at all times. Like, you know, me being in four or five bands is nothing compared to him. And he's you know, he can play at least ten instruments to the level of being able to give lessons on those instruments, you know. So he's he's a rare talent. I I just discovered hammered holes. Like I'm I'm totally out of the loop on things and and so I I had not really heard of hammered holes until I was doing prep for this. And ⁓ I just started listening to the record and it's it's so fucking good. It's really ⁓ thank you so much. No, I love it. Thank you. I I've been holding back on being a fanboy on a bunch of stuff here. So this is gonna be my moment. It's really cool. and hammered holes is ⁓ writing now, yeah? Yes. New new music in the works? Yes. Yeah, we've got about half of a record written. ⁓ and Mark's been out he's in a band called Desdemonos, who are incredible. they've been touring pretty nonstop for the last six months or so. they did two tours opening up for Nico Case, and I think they just got back from Europe and I think he just got back from Europe and went out with Kid Congo powers. So he's ⁓ yeah. As as mentioned, he's Very busy. but yeah, we were gonna put out a seven inch just as kind of like a placeholder. but then we were just like I think ⁓ at this point it'll put us one step back in the writing process for a full LP. So ⁓ we're gonna focus on that. And you know, speaking of busy two and all all this, yeah, Mary Timothy played bass for for you know, since the beginning of the band. And Brendan Canty, ⁓ filled in for her when she couldn't do stuff and now Brendan's in full time. So ⁓ Yeah, never let Brendan Canty fill in for you. He'll he'll steal that job. Everybody always says that about him. Don't keep your eyes off that guy. ⁓ But that's that's you know, one of the crazier things in in this music life has been, you know Having my favorite drummer of all time on bass in a band that I'm in is totally insane. And if you know, if he wasn't the person that he is, I probably would be shitting myself all the time. But you know, he's the sweetest person on earth and just like very encouraging. And, you know, so it's a great situation. There's nothing better than a do meet your heroes story. Yes, yes, true. Yeah. And I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he would be a lot of people's do meet your hero story. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. Since we're ⁓ sorry, Jason, go ahead. I was just gonna ask Ted put out ⁓ a couple new tracks last month, now that it's March. ⁓ do you has has there been any talk about kind of what comes next from that? Is there anything you might know about or want to share about you plan on going back on the road with Ted? ⁓ albums coming out or anything? There's been talk. ⁓ Yeah, there's been talk about getting into the studio at some point. ⁓ great. At some point this year. Nothing's been booked. and you know, there needs to be some learning of things also before that happens. but yeah, and then we have we're gonna we have ⁓ right now we have seven shows on the books and I don't think any of them have been announced yet. So ⁓ If they do announce before ⁓ this thing airs, I'll I'll let you guys know. But I guess I should probably keep him under wraps for now. Yeah, yeah. Smart, smart, smart stuff. That's fair. ⁓ and I know he's, you know, he's doing he joined Gang of Four. ⁓ so he's doing he's doing a bunch of stuff right now. ⁓ so I you know, I think he he's more he's closer to, you know, getting a pharmacist record out. now than he has been in a long time. And I I also I know all of us are gonna be involved in in this one. So that'll be you know, for the first time in sixteen years. So and you know Ralph's been in the band for seven years now? No. Okay. Eight, nine, two thousand seventeen, yeah, nine years. So this'll be the first recording that he's been on with the band. Yeah. Wild. Put in this put in the time. Yes, he he's earned it. Yeah. Was it Hutch we were talking to about Gang of Four the other day? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ we we ⁓ had a call with ⁓ Hutch Harris from the Thermals. Yeah, yeah. And he mentioned catching Ted at the Gang of Four show in Portland. Yeah. And just what a phenomenal show that was. Yeah, nothing but nice things to say about how it went. ⁓ nice, yeah. I'm so bummed I didn't get the The way that they had that tour routed, they didn't play Philly, but they like they didn't play Philly. They didn't they it seems like they could have done a week of shows in New York. But they wanted to cover the entire country in like a month. So they didn't hit certain major markets where they did play like Wichita and Grand Junction, Colorado, and like, you know, some crazy B markets. But I wasn't able to get down to the DC show here. I'm super bummed about it 'cause You know, Ted's always been a human jukebox, and I know that he like, you know, fair is he probably spent a lot of time getting the sounds dialed in and everything. You know, I bet. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so I since we're kind of getting up to the modern day now, ⁓ I heard an interview that you gave about 10 years ago, I think, ⁓ where you said I've achieved this level of success that isn't success to a lot of people, but to me is kind of perfect. ⁓ I loved that. And I just was curious, like, you know, ten years on, ⁓ do you still feel that way about now, about when you said that? ⁓ I don't know, just how how have things evolved for you ⁓ since that time? ⁓ yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely feel that way. Like, yeah, 'cause you know, since then hammered holes has been a thing. ⁓ And you know, you know, in your bucket list of things you want to achieve in your a musical career, you know, it being on a Discord record wasn't really anything that I thought was a real you know, an achievable goal. Totally. But that happened. ⁓ and, you know, like even stuff like the the Shake the Sheets 20th anniversary shows that we did, like that was like, you know, if I went out on that. Like that would have been it was it was so fun. Just like and you know, people still care about this thing that you did 20 years later. Like that's just that's you know, that's success, I think. You know? Yeah. ⁓ yeah, and it doesn't it does and also, you know, now with all of us at the age that we're at, and I feel like a lot of bands kind of do tour in, you know, like Jawbox that tour where they were just gone like one weekend. They were probably gone like many weekends in a row, but it was just like Friday, Saturday for like ever. like, you know, being able to do that, we yeah, the with the Shake the Sheet stuff, we did like three to four shows once a month. And it was so much fun. Like that definitely, like logistically, it was totally insane getting five people who live in different places and our sound guy lives in a different place too. Getting everybody just, you know, at the same place at the same time. but but I think I got to enjoy it more that way, you know. Yeah. And also just being able to hang out for like three or four days with that group of people and be like, all right, see you next month. Yeah. Instead of see you next year. But still being able to like I I don't know, just have the experience of knowing that something that you were part of that you helped create was so meaningful to people that twenty years on they would still be super excited to ⁓ you know be part of a tour to ⁓ come see that all brought back to life. Like it must be really rewarding. Must be very verifying. It is. Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was really fun. Yeah. The Port Portland and and Bumber Shoot shows I caught for the Shake the Sheets tour and ⁓ it was really awesome seeing like a lot of my fellow forty year olds having a blast in the pit, but then also like a bunch of teenagers and twenty year olds or whatever that were like singing along and pumping fists and everything. Like it's you know that that sort of music that ⁓ stands the test of time and is gonna draw in new younger audiences. It that must be a solid feeling. Yeah. That's been a cool thing to see lately too is I I feel like young kids are coming to shows more Now than they have been in years past. ⁓ like there ⁓ all right we played a show in Denver, and there were like a couple dads brought their children to our little dressing room thing. They're hey, it's so so's first show. Like they wanted to meet the band. We're like, great, let's do it. But there was a band called The Spells that opened up who were really great, this Denver band, and they had Like they brought a couple people on stage, just like these sixteen and seventeen year olds who were it was their first show that I feel like that show more than any of s been that I've played in a long time. Just like there are so many young kids here. It's incredible. And these these friends of mine from back home are in this band called Everyone Asked About You. Umero put out their record. They have a crazy story, but ⁓ Like they put out an LP that was completely forgotten. I honestly didn't even know it existed until Numero put it out. ⁓ like that's how buried it was. But Numero put it out and all these young kids found it. It's kind of ⁓ the the main singer songwriter. it was kind of he was coming out at this time. So ⁓ so I feel like all these young kids are kind of finding like not only are they finding emo, but like that record really spoke to a lot of Kids of this generation, you know. It's been amazing to watch. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's so cool. I think success can definitely I mean, it can be defined a million ways, but the idea of multi-generational fans. For sure. I think that's that's big. That that means something when it can speak to multiple generations and when you can look out at your at your crowd and say, like, that kid is here with their dad, but maybe next time we come through they're gonna be here with just their friends. Total. And then and then what if fifteen years from now they're here with their kids? Yeah. You know I was at a Sunday Day Real Estate show a few months ago and like I saw like right next to me was like a dad and his kid and they were both like super into it, super excited. And I'm like, this is surreal. Like, you know, I don't know. Just it's it's all right. It's the multi gener generational component is really exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the topic of ⁓ the youth of today, we often like to ask if you had any advice ⁓ things to do or not do for anybody that's, you know, maybe just starting to play music or has been playing a few shows, maybe getting their first album ready to get in the studio or whatever. Do you have any advice for aspiring artists? ⁓ geez. This is a hard one. ⁓ yeah, I don't know. Just I guess just don't yeah, you know. Maybe don't This is gonna sound bad, but don't shoot too high, maybe, you know? ⁓ because then, you know, if you know, if success or you know, whatever, if if a certain level of success comes to you, then it'll be a surprise to you. And that's always nicer than expecting it, I think. But that and I mean definitely just don't give up, you know. Like I've I mean I've been on some really long grueling Tours where I came home with no money and no job. but if it's if it's what you believe in, just keep keep on, you know. That's my best piece of advice. I love that. And and you know, the the couple times that you've mentioned putting yourself out there by like, hey, if you ever want me to play drums, like I'm down to do it. I love that sort of just chase the opportunities, go out and put yourself out there and and Do what you can and if you get a no, then that's okay. You're gonna have another opportunity soon enough if you just keep at it. Absolutely. Keep playing. Yeah. Playing, keep asking. And just you know, just be cool and you know, it sounds shitty to say make connections. It sounds like, you know, a LinkedIn advertisement or something, but you know, I mean just, you know, be you know, I don't know. It's a it's a giant community, you know, that's worldwide really. So, you know, just be cool to each other and you know. Yeah. Make connections and be excellent to each other. Love it. That's fantastic. Great. Chr Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today, for giving some good advice and for sharing so many ⁓ really cool stories about your experience as a musician with us. Thanks so much for asking me. Yeah. I've only been asked a few times, so this it means a lot. Thanks so much. It's our pleasure. All right. Thank you so much. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So, Chris Wilson. That was pretty cool. Yeah. I love Chris Wilson. I know. He's such a cool dude. Like, just very chill. I loved I don't should we make fun? I I don't know if this will be mean, but I loved how when we were trying to get him set up with the like the audio like, you know, recording situation, he went to audio.com. Like there's just something very pure about that. Like, ⁓ I need to record. Let's go to audio.com. I love that. Yeah, Audacity does not make it easy to find and record and No, now that they're on whatever. This isn't good pod, but like yeah, no ⁓ like then do like Muse platform whatever. Yeah, ⁓ sorry, forgot it's like part of Muse score or whatever. Yeah. Someday we'll probably grow up and like start doing one of the the platforms that you're supposed to use for all of this stuff that makes it easy for everyone. But until then we're just gonna tell people to hit the record button on the thing we sent them. And hopefully it'll work. Sponsored by audio.com. A subsidiary of music.org. Yeah. Chris was great. ⁓ I mean, holy smokes. It's really neat. We're all ⁓ you know, in our in our early forties, mid forties or whatever, and getting to talk to people from Tedlio and the pharmacist is pretty fucking cool. And and ⁓ getting to hear stories from other musicians who have I don't know, been on the same journey we've been on at one point, and then also played Jimmy Fallon, you know? and and seeing how those arcs kind of go up and down and change and stuff. And I think one thing that I find really sort of comforting about it is that ⁓ it's not so different. You know, like it's it doesn't change you. You you have to do that shit probably a lot at a high level pretty frequently before it like is gonna have a huge impact on who you are or your quality of life or any of that shit. Like You can have cool opportunities and do cool stuff and then like, you know, go to work on Monday. Yeah. And that's, you know, Well, that that was what I thought was so cool about his his attitudes. Like, I mean, I've seen a lot of drummers and just every time I see him, I mentioned this in the intro, it's just always amazing to watch him. And he's just like, Yeah, it's cool. I play drums. And it's like, dude, you don't just play drums, you're amazing. But he's just so like, I don't know, just chill and kind of modest about it. And yeah, like you said, just like, yeah, go to work on Monday. It's fine. I don't know, man. It's wild. It's nice, though. I don't know why. I I guess it's not that hard to figure out, but the humility is endlessly charming. ⁓ and Chris is you know has a bottomless amount of humility just kind of emanating from in every way. And that's it's And it's genuine. It's not a put on, right? Right. Yeah. It's not false, false modesty or anything like that. He's A sweet dude and a nice guy and he seems to be really appreciative and grateful for the opportunities he's had and where it's taken him and sure like that. That's kinda nice. I really ⁓ go ahead. Sorry. ⁓ Ted Leo was coming through like Portland and Seattle, I think, and then playing Bumber Shoot ⁓ couple of years ago. And like Chris had posted on Instagram or something like ⁓ d you know, looking for a place to stay while we're on the road. And he was breaking off from the band to go explore some national parks as a ⁓ big interest of his. And so that like they were staying in Portland and he was coming up through Seattle a day early or something like that. ⁓ so I'd offered him a place to stay here and he like, you know, got in late after a show and brought like a bottle of tequila or something that they hadn't finished off and like we just like had a drink and stayed up talking for a long time, whatever. And it was a very nice like ⁓ this is just like a nice person that I would want to be friends with and and hang out with and not the like ⁓ you should be starstruck knowing me or whatever. Like you ⁓ yeah, what just more to say, what a sweetheart, what a nice normal person. Have you have you had I I know y actually I know you have, but I was gonna say, have you had the opposite experience of like meeting someone who's kind of famous or you look up to as cool and then they're act like really shitty about it and like Or even just like they act like it's sort of weird that you're talking to them. I ⁓ yes. The first story that comes to mind was Ted Leo. This would have been like ⁓ no. I was I was not fishing for that, but here we go. This would have been probably like two thousand six or seven or something. Quite a while ago. and they were playing at Numo's and I think I was just like out having a cigarette or something and I saw Ted walk out the side door on the phone and I was like, ⁓ like I'm gonna say hi, just tell him like, hey, I'm a fan or whatever. So I'm just kinda like waiting around. And then somebody walked up and asked him something and he was just like, I'm on the phone. And I was like, ⁓ no, Ted Leo's a dick. ⁓ that's bad. And then like he name of the episode. ⁓ no, Ted Leo's a dick. He finished up the call and I was still committed. So I was like, hey, Ted, like really sorry to bother you. Just want to like, you say hi. Like, just thanks for being an awesome inspiration. And then he was like very nice. ⁓ but anyway, Ted Leo just didn't want to be bothered while he was probably like talking to his wife halfway across the country while on tour or whatever. Yeah. I was gonna say anybody who's friends with Amy Mann has probably got to be cool. Yeah, course. You'd think so. You'd think so. Amy Mann, notorious, like, you know, celebrity hangout. Like The only time I ever met a celebrity who was a dick and remained a dick was Hook Hogan. ⁓ and that was the story I was I wasn't I was not trying to fish for you to tell, but as soon as I started going, Have you ever met a celebrity you were a fan of and they were shit? I was like, ⁓ I have heard that story. yeah, I have had a couple of weird ones. I I got backstage at a few concerts when I was a teenager ⁓ and met A handful of people where they were like all super nice. But I remember also like me I was at EndFest ninety-six, ninety five, I don't know. And there was I was hanging out backstage and I had a really good time talking with Jeff Ahmed and who who was there with his band, I can't like some I can't remember what it's called. It was a side project he had. Pearl Jam. No, it was the other one. something like three something fish or something. It was ⁓ you know, one of those nineties band names that you forget. Sure. ⁓ And it was him, someone I don't remember, and the lead singer of Dishwalla. And if you remember Dishwalla, they were the Tell me all your thoughts on guys. Yeah, not paying for that. But they were really, really sweet. And I was and like it was one of those times when I was there at the time I was like smoking a cigarette and standing around, like nodding, like I'm supposed to be here. I'm part of this conversation. And then I can look back on it now as like a guy in my mid forties and be like, I was a like a fifteen year old. smoking and just like standing next to these like, you know, professional musicians like listening in on their like conversation about shit. Being like, totally, totally, yeah, me too, yeah. Yeah, man, right. And like, I must have looked like such a dweeb. And they were very, very sweet and gentle with me and not rude at all. And I'm in hindsight really grateful for that. Now they're doing podcast interviews like, ⁓ this one time this annoying little smoky kid was coming up. Idiot Idiot child. My the like the only stor like the first story, anyway, that comes to mind for me is one that Jason and I experienced at the same time. And until we're sure that we're not gonna get someone from Arctic Monkeys, I think I'll pull back on it. Story told. I mean, based on the story, I'm sure that I never want anyone from Arctic Monkeys on the show. That's true. Wow. Okay. Anyway, if they do show up, all they're getting is corona. Were you only here to talk about? All right, Chris Wilson. I so when we first started the interview, Chris's ⁓ journey begins in Arkansas, like most famous musicians. why not? but I I had resisted ⁓ a temptation and it's a lesson for me that I took right in that moment is I had a Wonder Years moment where I narrated for myself and was like, and that was the moment I learned that lesson, you know, where Chris was talking about being from Arkansas and my father was from like the exact same area Chris is from. ⁓ and I like my estranged father who I don't know and like like recently learned about his history. And I had this brief moment when he started talking about it where I like, Do I interject to launch into a story about how I don't know my dad? And then I was like, No, no, don't do that. Instead, let the guests talk about their life. So this is the appropriate moment for me to mention that. ⁓ not we really like to throw conversational curveballs at our guests. That's interesting. I didn't know my father. Cool. Anyway. Can we talk about it a little bit? Hey, do you guys want to ⁓ start a podcast as a sneaky way to get some of our favorite musicians to play our therapists? Is that not what we're doing here? That would actually be a hilarious premise for podcasts. Bring people on to talk about their careers and be like. But I you know, like if I'm being absolutely honest with you about this, like I think what you do with your career is fascinating and I I also think that maybe I need a little bit more time to myself. Like you know, I've been working a lot and I have a lot of pressure at work, and sometimes I think it impacts my relationship. How do you feel about that, Chris Wilson? More on that after the break. You know, Jason, something that he ⁓ talked about that actually kinda reminded me of you. was ⁓ the way he talked about how he ended up starting to work with ⁓ with Ted Leo. But like basically just every time he saw me'd be like, hey man, if you ever need a drummer, I'm here. I'm here. And like you've got that sort of ability to be like, I'm the sort of person where I'm like, hey, you know, we could do the thing. And like, nah, maybe not right now. I'm like, okay, I hate myself for asking. I'm sorry. I'm gonna go die now. But like you're the sort of person like you'd you're like, okay, that's cool. Not now. Maybe sometime. And like, you know, it ended up with him being the drummer and, you know. Tally on the pharmacist, which is pretty fucking rad. Yeah. I think maybe that's something you know, when we talk about like advice for younger or newer musicians, like trying to avoid the rejection or whatever. Like there's going to be a rejection. but yeah, I mean like I've I've had friends who have been like, ⁓ yeah, I'm gonna like email this booker of this major venue to see if I can open for this major headlining act. What are you talking about? Like that's ridiculous. And then it works. Like it's kind of taught me like the worst they can say is no. Like if they're gonna laugh at you or whatever. Okay. Like they're not gonna take away your birthday. You'll be able to go and play some other shows or whatever. And eventually there will be some yeses. So yeah, I I I do appreciate that. Like putting yourself out there and try to make things happen for yourself. And if they don't, like push on and do it again. That's right. I like that a lot. I think I'm like on the Total opposite side of that spectrum where I like I could be in a room with my favorite band all time and they could be like, Our guitarist died this morning. What are we gonna do? And I would just be like, Don't fucking say anything, you weirdo Like they could be like, If only there was a guitarist in here who could play even a chord, we'd let him play with us and I'd be like, Don't fucking say anything. They're gonna make fun of you. Just don't fucking don't breathe. Don't breathe, man. They're like, Kenny, can you play guitar? And I'd be like, I could. Yeah, I'll I don't even know what guitar is. What's that word? Do it, but please don't expect me to do it well, cause this is gonna go poorly. It's gonna make me feel really bad when it goes poorly. And I just you know what, why don't we not? We just cancel the show and But Chris apparently had the hit the right ⁓ sort of sweet spot there and ⁓ six times the charm or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is the move though, and you're dead on. Like don't don't be afraid to like ask the ask the question. Yeah. And then also getting to like, you know, because the person who played drums on the record that he ended up touring on was Brendan Canty, who was a huge like hero of Chris's, right? So like that's yeah, it's just a really cool confluence of things that that persistence ⁓ you know, granted him, which is really cool. I think that's pretty nice. I feel like we have to tell the Brendan Canty story. Do you to tell it, Jason? I've been talking a lot. Sure. ⁓ Danny and I played in a band together called Speaker Speaker. We recorded a record with Jay Robbins out in Baltimore. and at one point, I think it was during mixing or something, we were just kind of like sitting around while Jay was working and he got a phone call and ⁓ was like, Hey, do you guys mind if my friend Brendan swings by? And the three of us were all like very giddy and Well though at first we were super cool, like, ⁓ yeah, Brendan who's that's cool. Yes. Just just we weren't showing that we were gay, just internally. We all went, we know exactly what this means. To interrupt you, the context here is Jay Robbins from the band Jaw Box, the Burning Airlines, fantastic musician, amazing songwriter, great producer. And you already ahead of time knew that he had associations with Brendan Canty, right? Like so When he says my friend Brendan, part of you you all look at each other like, Could it be? ⁓ yeah. No, we we knew exactly who it was. Right. There there was that moment of like wide eyed play it cool, like, ⁓ yeah, sure dude, you know, like your studio, whoever you want to bring over, that's cool. And then Jay walked back into the other room and we were just like, We're gonna be in Fugazi. Until he got there and we had to be like, Hey, what to meet you, man. What's up, Brendan? Yeah, Yeah. I never know what to do when you meet somebody like ⁓ famous and they tell you their name. Yeah, I know, stupid. Doesn't matter who I am. There is that tendency to be like, you didn't need to tell me your name. Like I knew you I knew who you were before you got here and you know that. It's like you meet Paul McCartney and he's like, ⁓ I'm Paul. And you're like, I know. Are you idiot? stupid beetle. Limey sack of garbage, thinks I don't know your name. Well, there goes Paul from ever being on the podcast. Another one bites the dust. Man. That's one of my favorite points. We'll invite him anyway because go ahead and make the ask, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You never know. Yeah. You could see Paul being like, I'm kind of on the fucking, you know, he's at that point where maybe he's just saying yes to shit at this point. Why the fuck not? You know, it's not gonna ruin my career. That's true. There's zero risk. Zero risk for Paul McCartney at this point. Anything you want. He could tell a story about how he eats people on a podcast, and people would just be like, Wow, that's crazy. Talent's gotta come from somewhere. You gotta get your protein. Absorb it from the babies that you eat. Yeah. That's Jason, I I'm curious, as this sort of like drummer of the three of us, like do you have any like unique perspectives on Chris as a drummer? Like, I don't know. From a technical perspective or musical perspective? ⁓ well from a non technical perspective, he's so fun to watch play. ⁓ especially like he used to play these like Clear shell Vistillate kit and ⁓ you could just like see everything that he's doing behind the kit. And he's like one of those drummers that is doing a lot and kind of making it look effortless. He's not like making the ⁓ this is like hurting my body to play this fast or whatever kind of thing. ⁓ but I from for a non technical way to discuss my like feelings towards Chris, there are drummers Who I'm like, wow, that person is like really fantastic, really amazing, very talented, and and like good drummer. That's great. And then there are drummers that are like, ⁓ that person does exactly what I'm trying to become. Like Chris plays the way that I want to play and try to play. And so like I rip stuff off from him, fills and stuff I'll bite pretty frequently. ⁓ there are like a a small handful of drummers who I'm like, you do it exactly the way that I strive to be able to do it. ⁓ and it's just awesome to like watch somebody in that way, where like, you know, I don't know, I can watch guitarists and be like, ⁓ yeah, this person is like obviously shredding it and really good. But then when I see somebody who plays the style of music, the way that I play it, like, ⁓ yeah, that's that gives me like this drive to go and practice more or something to strive for to be do it as well as they're doing it. It's funny as a musician there is that difference where like you when you're watching like someone do the thing that you do at the next level or at a higher level or whatever or or just in if in your mind they're doing it better or really well or whatever, it is a little bit more inspirational and it kind of motivational than like I can go watch someone like I can go watch a Steve Vai play guitar and just shred and be like, that's really impressive. That's cool. And then like go eat my dinner and go home. Yep. But I but if I can go watch Jawbreaker play and be like, man That was fucking like poetry on wheels. Like I just loved the fuck out of it and I just want to go do it and like get me out of here so I can go do it. Yep. ⁓ and yeah, it's funny when you find your your lanes like that or your inspiration. Jay Robbins is one of those for me. I like I was a Jaw Box fan, but I got really into burning airlines for a minute. Yeah. And that ⁓ they had a couple albums that I was just like, who how can you write that shit? Mission control was just a masterpiece. God, it was good. Like undeniable. If anyone out there, if you're into I don't know, rock, post rock, indie, emopunk, like anything in that wheelhouse math rock. Go listen to some Burning Airlines. A band who undoubtedly had to like change their name or break up after two thousand one. I remember that. ⁓ but ⁓ really fantastic album that yeah, just yeah, from w some albums, just from that first couple of notes, it just like gives you gives you the like the neck chills. Yeah, and that's a hook. Yeah. Totally. Like that whole scene, like just that, you know, 'cause, you know, when we're you know, like I said, like Jason and Baltimore and like, you know, that whole Discord kind of D C group of like so much ⁓ I mean, feels like trite and cliche to say, but like we really dig into it. Just just so much amazing music. And like the fact that like Chris is, you know, associated with that is really cool. It is to like find your way to like somehow be in that part of the tree. Yeah. ⁓ is kinda neat. Did you see the stuff with ⁓ I'm sure you did. Maybe one of you and sent me something about it, but where Henry Rollins and ⁓ all of a sudden my ⁓ Ian Mackay ⁓ are working together to do a bunch of re-releases of like old punk albums, old unreleased punk stuff, and they're re-releasing ⁓ cramps album. Nice. ⁓ wow. Yeah. And I think God, who was it who it was a cramps album that was produced by Alex Chittlin, I think. ⁓ And and like apparently it's a fucking masterpiece. And they talked about the cramps in a way that I thought was really funny, where they were both like, neither of us, you wouldn't listen to our bands and go, these guys were influenced by the cramps because we were not trying to make music like the cramps at all. It wasn't what we wanted to do. So both of them were at a similar age where they happened to like wander into a cramp show and seeing that band play and the recognition that you could do kind of whatever the fuck you wanted on stage and be whatever you wanted and like embody. entertainment in that way and and like really tear it up definitely influenced them going in and starting like punk bands and heading that direction. So now they're trying to kind of pay that back. And I didn't realize this, but they said that ⁓ in the interview I read, they were talking about how apparently all of like the immense amount of cramps merch and patches and shirts you've seen your whole life, none of them were made by people associated with the cramps and they never saw a dime of it. ⁓ wow. Yeah. Like I don't know if it was that there was an issue where they didn't have the rights to something and s you know, fucking hot topic did or what, but like somehow like they just never got rich off any of that, despite the fact that like every emo and punk kid for like forty years was wearing a cramps logo ⁓ at some point in their upbringing. And ⁓ so there now like they've helped them get that out and they're trying to like re s relaunch that even though there's only a couple remaining members around. But like they're basically trying to help them like get back in the spotlight so they can like now make their money. ⁓ that's like that's what that's how you give back. That's why fucking Henry Rollins and Ian McKay are the fucking real ones like out there doing the work still. Totally. Love those guys. ⁓ Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And I guess back on topic. Another thing Chris said I really enjoyed and we're jumping around here, so feel free to take it back if I'm going too far into the future. But we he talked about the different like levels of shows and how playing with Ted Leo, they've gotten to a point where they've played some pretty big shows and how that stuff's cool. But how there's like this perfect size of like a thousand person room. Yep. Yeah. And how when you can if you could just do that all the time forever, like that's maybe the sweet spot. Yep. And I really liked that as a concept. He he mentioned we always ask people what they what like advice they would give to other musicians and stuff. And he said something to the effect of like Don't shoot too high. And at first I kind of laughed because I was like, man, like that's the kind of thing you say to someone who sucks. Like maybe don't shoot too high. You know, maybe just maybe just try and be mediocre and don't get disappointed. But what I took away from that after thinking about it for a minute and then like getting over my little like, you know, cynical person thing was what he's actually saying there is like, you don't need to set your expectations way up there because there's a really beautiful place to be, which is in the moment. Like Wherever you're getting to, wherever you're at, like enjoy the fuck out of that because the top of the mountain isn't necessarily the best place to be anyway. It really is like somewhere on your way up, and maybe even somewhere on your way back down, that like you can probably take the time to appreciate the view the most and like really you know, appreciate the journey as straight as that is. Like that shit matters. And ⁓ I liked his perspective on that. He does have this kind of almost sort of Buddhist attitude of like. Just be happy with what you're doing. Well, I think we we've talked to a number of people who like will kind of bring up the idea of like sort of being in the moment when the moment is happening, right? Because like that's a challenge, right? You know, like it's kind of in in retrospect or hindsight that you're like, ⁓ wow, those were amazing times. I wish I realized those were amazing times at the time. ⁓ he kind of embodies that. Like that was kind of his his whole deal. I think he's like, you know, just everything that. that happens is just a thrill. It's exciting. And, you know, I'm just super happy with with everything that happens. And like that's like you said, very zen of him. And ⁓ yeah, it's it's really inspiring. Yeah. I also really like that you don't know it like there's so many cliches out there when you see like a rocker dude with a beard and long hair, like looking kind of rough and shaggy. You know, you people have these expectations or stereotypes about someone like that. But my experience, like most of those dudes like The lower you're dropping your E string, like the sweeter of a heart you probably have. And I don't know why that is, but like I've met some like some doom metal ass dudes who are just like the biggest teddy bears and the nicest guys with the kindest dispositions. And so That's probably where that started. They're like, I don't want any tension in my life. So I'm just gonna like start detuning these strings until they sick to the district. C tuning. Too much tension, literally. That's pretty good. I mean I think on that note it's probably a good place to wrap it up. Unless you guys to keep talking, we could edit this out. ⁓ no, I think ⁓ I don't I don't have This is great radio. Yeah. Ryan Leva, if you're editing this, don't fuck it up. So on that note, this is probably a good place to wrap things up. Yeah. So, you know, Chris Wilson, all around good guy. if there's any takeaway I would have from it, it would be like i when you get to a certain point where you feel like your band is succeeding, don't worry about getting past that point. Just be in that point and just enjoy being that point. Yeah, just love it and and and have fun and Play music and and yeah, and ask your favorite band if you can be in their band. Go listen to everything Chris does. That's right. Yes. ⁓ Ted Leo, Hammered Holes, Titus Andronicus, anything that he's associated with is a super fun time. And ⁓ if you can see him when he comes through your town, you absolutely should 'cause all of his bands are amazing and they're all very fun to watch and as I've said. Especially Chris. It's a treat to place to place Yep. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, listeners. Love you. All right. Thank y'all. Bye. Bye. Yes.