WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:08.480
As members of technical staff, and sometimes I can get technical, but I've also found that like I um I feel like I need to build something, you know.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:17.039
I've not built something in like a year with with software, and so I I feel like I'm getting further and further away from the curve.
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:27.199
Like the last time that I did software engineering, quote unquote professionally, was when you still wrote code by hand, which was like pre-Opus 4.5.
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:28.719
And so that means what?
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.079
That is pre-November last year?
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:32.560
Yeah.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.079
Pre-November last year.
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.280
Stuff's kind of changed a fair bit in the last year.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:42.799
We're just saying like incredibly uh novel things on the Mots pod.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.079
Uh stuff has changed.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:44.880
Uh, any thoughts?
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.960
Any initial thoughts off the bat when it comes to like how software is changing?
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.640
I keep hearing um now now people are using like software factories or some shit.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.679
What does that even mean?
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.200
Do you guys use software factories?
00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:01.439
I think it's like a mix of taking like an Elon sound clip, like the real innovations in the factory, and like that sounds sick.
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.359
How do I put that in software?
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:08.480
And it's like you build a machine that builds a machine, it's like the test of philosophy is like all the engineering work is in the factory.
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:08.640
Yes.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:14.799
And software is like all the engineering work is in like building like your cloud code setup so that you can actually write software one shot easily.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:23.760
Is it do you is it like a do you think it's like a and and they're not a small sort of mods, but do you think it's like a Psyop by factory AI to sell more software factories?
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:28.959
Or do you think like like why like why why are people like why why did people decide to use that?
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.599
Like a software factory to me is just like a bunch of agents running at the same time.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:34.000
No?
00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:34.959
Am I crazy?
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.560
Modifying your skills and your prompt, but I don't know.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.680
People they want to call it call it something cool to feel better about themselves, I guess.
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:42.560
Have any thoughts on this?
00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:43.599
I have a much better thesis.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.000
I think that I think that's a new Gartner category.
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:46.480
Okay.
00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:54.239
So I think that Gartner uh and Forester have launched a new enterprise software category category called software factories.
00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:54.640
Okay, yeah.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:58.239
But this was all downstream of like the Twitter algo starting people starting to say it, no?
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:07.200
A Twitter algo, like oftentimes Gartner and Forester, whenever some term pops up that does not quite make sense to anybody, it's usually led by the by Gartner and Forester.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:15.039
So like all the major companies, like Cognition, uh XAI, Factory, would actually XAI wouldn't give a shit, but Cursor would have.
00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:20.400
They all pay fees to Gartner and Forester to get put on their market maps.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:21.360
They have like the quadrant.
00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:22.960
You ever see like the magic quadrant?
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:23.280
Yeah.
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.439
And you want to get like the top right position.
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:29.199
And to do that, you have to match the language that they say defines the category.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:35.520
So they decided that software category is a new uh grouping of companies.
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:36.879
Software factory companies?
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.039
Well, software factory is the name of their category.
00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:44.000
Uh like so instead of doing vibe coding companies, they're gonna do software factory.
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:51.759
And now everybody is trying to make sure that they get a lot of domain reputation and a lot of brand marketing around that term.
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.439
That way, whenever the magic quadrant comes out in Q1 of next year, they place well.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.240
Wow.
00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.560
Wait, so what even is Gartner?
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:01.199
I actually don't know.
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:02.400
I'm I'm looking it up right now.
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:04.879
Like, like Gartner Magic Quadrant.
00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:17.120
Yeah, so like if you're someone at like Walmart or Dick Sporting Goods or like Ace Hardware and you're in IT and you're trying to buy software, uh, you don't make that decision by yourself.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.520
You hire a consulting firm like Gartner or Forester to advise you on which software vendor you should pick.
00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:28.800
So, like, like, for example, uh CRMs are a category now.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.719
Yeah, and Salesforce leads that category.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:35.199
So if you're gonna buy a CRM, you're gonna go to Gartner and Forester and be like, which CRM should I buy?
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.759
And their default recommendation is always gonna be Salesforce.
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:38.800
So interesting.
00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.800
I've I'd never heard of Gartner and Forrester.
00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:51.120
Like, cause I because I think of like Big Three, McKinsey, Bain, and BCG, and then big four, Deloitte, uh, KPMG.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.439
I think it's Accenture and EY.
00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.439
I think that's correct.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:56.400
I think that's correct.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.039
BPO consulting and then accounting.
00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.439
Yes.
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:00.879
Uh as like those two categories.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.680
But then for software purchases as Gartner and Forester.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:04.800
That's crazy.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:06.319
This is like the other side of marketing.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:06.639
Yeah.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.439
This is this is um like you don't you don't hear this shit.
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:10.719
I feel like you should tweet about this.
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:12.319
Is this still relevant today though?
00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:12.719
Yes.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.000
You don't think that they just go to ChatGPT and say what CRM do I buy?
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:17.199
There's no way that they don't do that.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:17.839
No, no, no.
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:22.160
When you're the CTO of Costco, you don't go to ChatGPT and say what software should be.
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:22.879
You go to the boys.
00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.000
You go to the boys at Gar.
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:26.240
It's actually the girls for the most part.
00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:27.519
There's no way.
00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:29.199
You just go to the you just go to the homies.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.839
Two years ago I buy that.
00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.120
There's no chance of doing that today.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.319
The economy still runs off of guys, right?
00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:37.199
Guys for things.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.240
And guys is gender neutral in this in this case as well, actually.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.240
But like having a guy for a thing.
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:50.000
So so so yeah, like Costco guy, big guy at Costco has their guy to tell them about their marketing thing.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.920
What quadrant they're in, or what quadrant they should use, what quadrant their the CRM that they should use is in.
00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:56.720
Yes, yes.
00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.279
And then they'll even say things to their Gardener rep like, I'm okay getting not the best.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.480
I want the most innovative.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:02.720
Yeah.
00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:07.439
And the Gardner rep will be like, oh, you should try Addio or you should try Monaco.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:07.759
Yeah.
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:12.160
Uh but if they say like, I want the best, that's not gonna get me fired, then they'll be like, okay, you go with Costco.
00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.639
And then then they're like, that'll be for like five million dollars.
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:15.519
And they're like, yeah, cool.
00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:17.279
Yeah, yeah, sick.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.000
I love the old economy so much.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:21.519
It's still kind of how it works.
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.560
Like uh Cognition sells BP sells to BPO consulting firms uh hand over fist.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:26.959
Yeah.
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.120
Um I think I feel like all of all of those like token reseller guys kind of do, right?
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:50.160
It's like like either like the consulting firms, the banks, Fortune 500, and like as far as I'm as far as I'm aware, they're they're able to go and just be like, okay, well, um with us you have access to all the models, also you have like like custom environments, uh ZDR, all of these sorts of things.
00:05:50.399 --> 00:06:12.560
Because like I feel like I feel like uh and and this is actually it's relevant, actually, because it's like I had um I had this as sort of like a question, but it's like um the the question that I get asked, right, as as as is is like why would why would one of those companies even go to a token reseller if they could just go to like you know anthropic and ask for zero data retention?
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:18.399
It's like like why isn't it because because obviously you guys sell to the like you know you guys sell to the coding agents.
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.800
And so like why like why would they even do that?
00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.920
Why would companies go to them versus uh a a lab?
00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.399
Like why why use an open source model?
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.519
Or like you mean like why like okay, like let's do first, like why would you open use an open source model?
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.240
Like I obviously I know the answer to that because uh my fucking show.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:41.680
Uh but like but then but then two, why would you then say use an open source model with say cognition or factory?
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.040
Like I think of them as like the you know the the the token resellers.
00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.360
I don't know if they consider that to be a slur, but yeah.
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.439
I mean, I guess they they're like a mix, like they consume from all the providers, right?
00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.879
Like fireworks, everyone.
00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.120
Uh and then they also house themselves.
00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.079
But like inference is kind of like a commodity market almost, right?
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.079
Like the the end product is a commodity, right?
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:05.759
The way you generate the commodities, there's some differentiation, but like at the end of the day, it's just like price, speed, reliability.
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:06.240
Yes.
00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:11.040
Um and so like why someone wouldn't use anthropic open AI, it's price or speed.
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.399
Uh there's some aspect of like uh like constraints, right?
00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.639
Like on anthropic won't do like security stuff, right?
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:23.279
It's like hugging face very openly had to use GLM53 to bounce the the hack that came in, right?
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.199
And so that that's a smaller portion, I would say the biggest which is price and speed, really.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:27.759
For sure.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.399
That makes sense.
00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:28.879
That makes sense.
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.160
That's uh similar answer to that to what I got.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:33.279
Any any anything to add then?
00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.560
I think enterprises are like less rational than that.
00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.040
Like if you think of uh if you think of like Disney Cruises, yeah.
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.920
Disney Cruises probably bought factory recognition, right?
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:50.959
Yeah, but they're just not gonna get the sales support that they need from like Anthropic or OpenAI to buy a product from them.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:51.519
Totally.
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.360
Uh they're gonna be they want to make like the enterprise tier for those.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.759
So you end up going with like factory recognition.
00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.720
And that's I I like those examples, right?
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:02.879
Like Carnival Cruise buys a lot of software.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.360
Yes.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:10.720
So is Carnival Cruise like kind of raw dog a morph subscription to get their tokens?
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:12.800
I mean, if they get through open router.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:13.439
Maybe.
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:13.680
Yes.
00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:15.680
I mean, right now we don't even have to answer these questions.
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.120
We're just completely capacity constrained, right?
00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:17.759
Totally, yeah.
00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:19.920
It's like every day it's just how do we get more GPUs?
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:21.519
Is the only question that really matters.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:21.920
Yeah.
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:22.160
Yeah.
00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.800
And then maybe eventually we'll have so much compute that we'll have to go back and be like, okay, how do we how do we convince customers to use us?
00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:29.279
Yeah.
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.639
But until that day comes, we're just focused like only focused on the.
00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.720
That's actually like that's that seems like that seems like to be a decent problem to have, no?
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.279
Um yeah, I mean it's it's a harder problem.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.440
The sales is much easier than trying to figure out like how to get compute in today's market.
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:44.399
Because that's that's the thing.
00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:51.279
I mean, like, I feel like whenever I whenever I speak to a factory cognition, black box, whatever, it does seem to be a game of enterprise sales.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:58.879
Um and because I mean like, you know, without without sort of throwing any of them under the bus, they're all doing very similar things.
00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:04.159
I mean, like those, those three in particular, I mean, they're just they're just straight up direct competitors.
00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:04.399
Yeah.
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:11.919
Um obviously, like I personally, for solo dev stuff, I'm always spinning up like a codex in a CLI.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:12.399
Right?
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.879
Or like multiple codecs and CLIs.
00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.039
Which actually also brings me to my next thing.
00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:20.559
Uh I notice you guys are still using CLIs mostly, right?
00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.399
I like I've sorry?
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:23.200
I use a Merx.
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.600
I use uh Okay, well that was gonna be my question.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.600
It's like like CLI versus desktop app and the big two six.
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:30.320
Yeah.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.120
It's like I have like way too many subscriptions now.
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:33.440
Yeah.
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:38.480
I spend I think I think that my spend is now, personal spend is like 2500 on subscriptions.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.440
So like I have like six cloud subscriptions and like three or four codec subscriptions.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:43.840
Nice.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.240
And codex is desktop app and then cloud codes are.
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:47.840
Oh, interesting, interesting.
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.279
Why like like why why the difference between providers?
00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.120
Well like the cloud desktop app is not very good.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.679
Okay, so just so like you're you're basically like, okay, well, if the desktop app is good, I'll use it.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:59.759
Uh seems kind of like reasonable.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:01.279
Yeah, what's the other reason?
00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.440
There's like some feature that the desktop app has that convince me.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.200
Yeah, the computer use is really good in the desktop app.
00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.879
In the beginning, they only supported computer use from the desktop app.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.039
They recently added to the CLI, I think.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:11.440
Yeah.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:15.200
Uh so that was the that was what got me in the desktop app, was the browser and computer use.
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:16.639
Okay, checks out, checks out.
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:18.000
I've never even bothered to try it, right?
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:19.039
Because I'm like such a Luddite.
00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.039
I'm like, I'm like, dude, like You don't have to like fill out forms or something that you don't want to fill out?
00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.480
Um I just love I just love zipping around the terminal.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:27.840
I just I just I just love doing that.
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:29.919
Like a form that you have to use a browser for.
00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:31.120
Oh yeah.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:31.600
Yeah.
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:33.600
If I have to use the browser, I will use it.
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:34.320
Like I'm not gonna like.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.759
Yeah, but like then don't you want to use codex?
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:37.759
Did you fill out your browser forms and whatnot?
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.919
Um no, I don't actually.
00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:40.639
I don't.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:43.120
You like filling them out just to feel something.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:43.840
Just to feel.
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.080
Yeah, I'm just like I'm raw dogging the forms.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:47.279
Well that's the thing.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:56.080
I mean, I think I there is like, you know, I'm I'm leaving, I'm definitely leaving productivity on the table, like not just just not having been in it for the last year.
00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:03.360
Like I like I think I feel like what I use uh what I use like codex for most of the time nowadays is actually like file compression and conversion.
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:12.639
So just like just like navigating to my directory and just being like, hey, um this this like video file, I literally cannot post this on X because it's too big.
00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.039
Like use handbrake to some FFM pegs.
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:15.519
Exactly.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.600
Like like use FFM peg to compress it.
00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.039
And like that's that shit's like that that's life-changing.
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.559
Imagine trying to do that without without codex, like I just wouldn't.
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:32.240
Like I'd find like some sketchy, like sketchy website, you know, filled with ads to do it for me.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:33.919
Welcome to 2025.
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:37.519
It's back in 2025.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.759
Because I discovered GPT6 can CD to my folder and use FFM peg.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.440
Exactly, exactly.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.279
It's pretty good actually.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:45.840
It's pretty good.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:48.879
I mean, yeah, now now I've got GPT-6 like doing some editing stuff.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:50.399
We were just talking about this a little bit before.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.399
Uh kinda good, kind of good.
00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:54.720
Uh using it inside inside Kino.
00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.279
I'm just like mentioning all of these companies that don't even sponsor mods.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.000
Like I'm just like a like I'm kind of doing my actual sponsors a bit of a disservice here.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.080
Uh, but yeah, but yeah.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.159
So like, but yeah, like like that, I mean that makes sense.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.399
I'm still just like so I'm I'm like so CLI pill, but it's mostly like an ego thing.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.000
Any any thoughts on this, Nick?
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:19.919
I I prefer the CLIs for whenever I have to be focused, I think because there's less distraction.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.039
Like they're just a little bit simpler to look at UX-wise.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:46.720
Uh I also still think that the like I think that the user experiences that exist in the CLI, like whether you're just using regular VS Code terminal panes or like regular iTerm, uh, or you're using you know herder or whatever, uh to manage the different agent sessions, I think all that software works a lot better than having many parallel things in the desktop app.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:47.360
Yes.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.159
I also think that the desktop apps really try to encourage you to use cloud agents.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:52.639
Right.
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.279
And I think that the cloud agent thing does not work very well.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.000
Yeah, I agree.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.320
Uh I mean it could just be the nature of our work as well.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.320
Like if you're just doing Reacta, is it fine?
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:08.320
It probably is, but I just think that you have a lot of like context and ends up living locally on your computer, and it's better to run agents locally whenever you can.
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:09.120
Totally.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:16.960
Or I think like I think part of what makes products like Rockbot and Muse and Instinct so good is that they only have one machine.
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:17.600
Yeah.
00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:19.679
Uh instead of a sandbox for each task.
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.639
Having a sandbox for each task, I think, was like a big blocker to desktop adoption for a long time.
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.000
Especially for cursor.
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:26.480
Yep.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:28.720
Uh which is kind of crazy.
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:37.279
Like the fact that like cursors the level of like, if you go like Google Search Trends, like the level of fall-off for cursor is insane.
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:37.759
Pretty well.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.279
It happens significantly faster and more abruptly than you would have expected.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:42.080
I would have expected.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:42.399
Yeah.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:43.679
Post-acquisition?
00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:44.879
Yeah, post-acquisition.
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.039
Like they're not even gonna make the magic quadrant.
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.879
Like Cappy is probably gonna be the magic quadrant.
00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:51.039
And cursor's not gonna be in it.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.799
Cappy's just taking over.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.639
This is kind of crazy to think about.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.679
Like that's kind of where search trends have shaken out.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:58.639
Totally, totally.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:00.480
I mean you touched on you touched on cloud agents.
00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.840
Like, I mean, like what is what is the case for cloud agents, right?
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.279
I mean, like, it seems to me that it's a little bit more useful for like, I've heard, like, uh uh, you know, like like just like working with working with repositories, right?
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.679
Or like, or like I mean it's like it's like it's like shared context, right?
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:20.960
Um, between employees.
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.639
Is this probably the right way to think about it?
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.039
I think like Muse and Grok are like the best examples of cloud agents that work.
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.879
I think cloud agents that don't work are the ones like what Nick was saying, where they all have different file systems.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:31.200
Yes.
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.120
And because like I think if you're like an employee at Cursory, you're like, man, this is sick, let's ship this.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:48.799
And because like you're like intuiting, like, oh, this project has this file and this project has this files, but like if you're Joe Schmo and you're like, I downloaded this form to my downloads, fill this out, and it's like, oh, I can't find that file because it's not in that file system, it's in like another file system or it's on your local file system.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.240
Like the the the average user doesn't have this concept of like separate file systems or just like I have my files, just like do my shit.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.559
Yeah, just just like just traverse my entire yeah.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:14:58.960
Yeah.
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:05.919
So I almost feel like from a dev perspective, in order for like a cloud system to work has to like sync file systems, or be one file system.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:11.360
Um or like something that could work as well as like the Gracom use case where it's like a persistent file system at least.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.559
That's like the minimum bar is like at least have everything on one machine.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:15.360
Totally.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.279
Do you guys use do you guys use many like like of the of the of the personal agents?
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.600
Like the the groc bots, the news agents, etc.
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:08.960
Um I used Instinct to uh buy like the Costco delivery that came and then uh to buy shoes.
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.840
Just to typically just to wrap web experiences I don't want to go do.
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:13.039
That's the only that's the only thing.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:14.320
Oh, you used it to buy shoes?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.840
Yeah, because I really don't want to go like the the websites are always slow, if you like click it.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:18.879
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:19.919
Uh it's just annoying.
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.399
So that plus the Costco same day.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:23.919
Uh yeah, that's basically it.
00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:24.639
That makes sense.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.559
Yeah, it's like it's like uh, I don't know.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:28.159
I'm I'm still trying to.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.519
I feel like I don't know, I don't know if you guys are like this at all.
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:37.360
Um and again, maybe I'm just like a proper fucking Luddite that actually hates technology.
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:38.639
Maybe that is the case.
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:46.879
But I feel like my my barrier for trying new software now, like like it's it's so like I'm almost like averse to it.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:59.039
I feel and I don't know if that's a case of like like I feel like I'm being thrown a slightly different version of the same thing every single week, and I'm like, like I've like I tried this earlier in the year, you know?
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:11.680
And it's like I like like it's like useful for for some things, but like a lot of a lot of the personal assistant work that I do, like I want to have my eyes on, like I want to read all of my text messages, I want to read all of my emails.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:29.359
Like I could maybe save a little bit of time with summaries and like maybe I could reply to some emails with an AI generated response, but like my my my job is so dependent on knowing what people are saying to me and like prepping materials myself.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:37.279
And so maybe like maybe I'm maybe I'm a like an exception to it, but I just I I I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and say it.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.519
I feel like they're just not that useful for me.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.599
There I said it.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.039
The most useful part is like wrapping browser experiences they don't want to do.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.000
I feel like the whole like going through emails and stuff is like not that not that useful.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:48.559
Right, right.
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.680
Like booking flights, I would never want an agent touching my flights.
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:57.599
Do you ever use like Yard systems or like something that's like a really, really old like legacy software that's like super, super slow and super laggy?
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.079
No, I use like uh What is Yard systems?
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.880
It's like some like it's like Salesforce before Salesforce.
00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:03.839
It's like even worse.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.720
I got I was I was thinking of like I was just thinking of like straight up just like like selenium web scrapers or something.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.559
Like like automating.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.720
You are on the Australian visa stuff, right?
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:16.880
Yeah.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:18.799
Like the website I'm sure is really poor.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:25.839
I feel like that stuff, the personal agent stuff becomes quite quite nice because it like it'll turn at that for like an hour and just like do the stuff that you don't want to do.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.799
But part of the friction there is that you also have to give it a lot of stuff.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:29.519
You have to give it your social.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:30.480
And like that, of course.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.240
There's a like onboarding friction, and so I think there is a case for them being useless.
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.359
Totally cooked.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.519
Yeah, I don't okay.
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:40.960
I don't use personal agents at all.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.160
Like I tried Grockbot and Muse and stuff, it did not stick at all for me.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.839
But I do a bunch of personal agent tasks from like Claw Code and Codecs.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.240
Yes, which has always been the breakthrough for me.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:58.720
Like uh, I mean, I think I just I feel like I handle uh too much communication for for uh like at all times.
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:05.440
Like there's just so many inst like Twitter DMs and there's uh so many text messages and like emails that I cannot keep up.
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:11.920
And I can use the personal agent to just like mark a lot of the spam red uh whenever it's not relevant to me.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.480
And I can also use it to like whenever sometimes I do want to reply to cold DMs.
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.079
Like I try to reply to as many of those as I can, but it when they're earnest.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.079
So like good example.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.640
I did a show HN last week, and somebody emailed me and they were like, what do you do after you do a show HN?
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.160
Just like I'm just looking for tips.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.799
And you can tell the guy was super earnest, handwritten email.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:31.119
Yep.
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.559
You know, like the agents helped me find some of that stuff, and then they also handled like a lot, a lot of minutiae.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.200
Like I lost my driver's license last year, and it handled getting me the replacement without me having to go to the website or do anything at all.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.519
Uh it just point of like really annoying browser use.
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.240
Really annoying browser use is I think the critical thing for it.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.160
Yeah, might be the only thing, honestly.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:53.279
Only thing.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.920
I'm I'm very pilled.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:02.720
I saw uh I saw a take somewhere on Twitter, I don't know who it was, so I can't give proper credit, but someone was like, who's building the personal assistant for like busy moms?
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:03.279
Sure.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.359
And I was like, no, this makes so much sense.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.599
Yeah.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:16.000
Like imagine you know, you've got like you've got like three kids and you're trying to coordinate like all their school stuff and then sports practice and you know, all this kind of thing.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.559
That's probably the kind of person that needs a personal assistant the most.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:18.799
Yeah.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.799
That's probably also a lot of annoying browser use.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.440
Like sign up for soccer, school website, that kind of stuff.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.920
Shopping lists, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:26.720
Applications.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.920
Then that that makes sense.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:28.640
That makes sense.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:34.079
Yeah, but like I don't know, that that to me, that to me seems like a bit of a that seems more like a marketing problem, right?
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:42.079
I think it was um I think it was Strichecari that was talking about how like all of all of these tech companies they market these things as like productivity enhancers.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:49.359
And it's just like like I don't you know, I I I like resonate with the idea that like the average person actually doesn't really want to be more pro productive.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Yeah, it's like I can I can't like I'm actually not sure that's the case.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:21:00.319
The the the booking flights example, like that example that just keeps perpetuating, like seems like totally moronic to me.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:04.079
Like I would never want a personal agent fucking touching my flights.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:04.880
Why is that?
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.000
I I definitely do, I definitely do use them to book my flights and I like it a lot.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.480
So I don't yeah, I don't understand like why you don't like the booty.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:22.640
Because I I feel like like I like I know exact I kind of just I know exactly what flight I want, like I like I know what seat I want, I I know the the the better times of day to fly, etc.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.000
Um I know what airline.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:25.759
Do you like using the UI for that?
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.519
Or do you not trust the agent to to take that and actually do that?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:30.720
The latter.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:31.359
The latter.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:41.200
Maybe it's because you were so early you've already used it, but like it's the type of thing where like in like three months, it's like a lot of the use cases have become possible that were not not trustworthy before.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.279
But also like for browser use especially, that's the case.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.599
Like three months ago, browser use was pretty shit compared to today.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.559
No, like that I could like that could that could totally be the case.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:59.200
And like it has been the case, like like OpenClaw was a was a big uh eye opener for me because like pre open claw, I was like, this shit, this shit, like it's just not no one's gonna use this shit.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.720
And then OpenClaw came out, I was like, fuck, I'm just wrong.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.160
Like, I was like so wrong.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.519
They weren't wrong about OpenClaw.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.440
But like the hype around it and like it it basically like kicked off an entire category.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:11.839
Yeah.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:12.160
Yeah.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.039
I mean even like Muse and uh the others, like they they use like the Grokwatt system, right?
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.480
They have like a soul.md file.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.960
It's like those like stepping stones, right?
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:22.799
I have a really good example for the flight thing.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:22.960
Yeah.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:25.440
So I'm not like an airline loyalist.
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.720
I will book like whatever airline.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.000
That makes sense.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.359
I like booking the premium airline for a given airport.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:37.039
So like if I'm flying in to Denver where it's a United hub, Denver has the premium terminal.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.599
Like the better restaurants and the better stores and whatnot.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.000
So I prefer to fly United if I'm going to Denver.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:51.279
But if I'm going to Detroit, for example, uh Detroit, they have two terminals, they have like Evans and Maknamara, and the United terminal is Evans and it sucks.
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:52.960
So I want to like book Delta.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.960
But there's a lot of airports I'm not as familiar with.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:05.359
So I really enjoyed using the agent to figure out like I'm willing to pay my 20% premium to fly to the air airline that has the premium terminal for this airport.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:06.480
Okay, interesting.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.119
Interesting.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.839
Well, I mean that's actually I've never heard of a case for that.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:18.319
Like I'm always just going, one airline, I want my status, like I want my uh cheaper upgrades with the status, I want my miles, etc.
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.839
And I like I don't consider myself to be like a points Nazi or whatever.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.079
But I but you know, I like like Wow.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:24.400
Yeah.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:25.519
You guys are snobs here.
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:27.599
I would fly spirit.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.319
Like I'm gonna do it.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.079
I'm I'm high maintenance now, dude.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.160
I'm like, it's like there's like little bits of lifestyle creep I've decided to add.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.119
I'm like I think the only premium thing I would like actually go for is Starlink.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:40.559
Like everything else is like just doesn't matter.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:41.920
United Starlink is very good.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.839
Yeah, I would pay a lot for Starlink, but like everything else is like I'll pay more for Starlink too, but no, I I like I like my airport beer.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.319
Yeah, the premium terminal.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.920
I don't want to go to the shitty terminal.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.519
I like my airport beer, the nice terminal.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:04.240
Well my thing is like I I'm I'm like I'm hell bent on cutting like cutting my wait time shorter and shorter.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.599
Like like, you know, I'm I'm I'm cutting my I pay for that too.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:08.400
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.079
Exactly, exactly.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.880
Agent can set that up too, like the VIP uh experience we go to airports, premiere access, yeah.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.240
You mean like clear or something?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:16.960
No, no, no, no.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:21.759
You can get like you can pay even more to get a better experience than clear where you can fully bypass lines.
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:21.920
Yeah.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.960
Like the what celebrities do.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.839
And then I'm not spending I'm not spending as much time at the airport.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.359
So I'm actually not even trying to spend any time at the terminal at all.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.680
But like again, that comes with if you're spending any time at the terminal at all, you fucked up, right?
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:33.839
Yeah.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.480
No, I like it.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.799
I even like flying during football season because like during football or NBA season, you can even get there and you can watch a game.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:40.480
Watch you can watch a game with an airport beer.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.240
Yeah, watch a game with an airport beer, then you get on the flight, and then usually the TV thing works, then you can keep watching the game on the flight.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.599
Dude, I'm I've I love this shit.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:58.240
I'm really deeply uh committed to enjoying as much as I can about air travel.
00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:01.039
Well, I mean, I okay.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:07.279
So if you're like if you're like Nick and you just love airports, maybe use your Muse agent to book your flights.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:08.400
Dude, it's dope.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.559
You can even like you can even go as far as like optimizing uh like if let's say you're gonna have to take a connection, right?
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:14.960
Yeah.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.279
Certain connections, like each flight's gate when you land at the airport is predetermined.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.680
So like the flight from like Denver to Detroit will always have the same gate.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:23.920
Yeah.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.440
For example, so you can decide like, oh, I'm taking a connection.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:34.240
So I want to take, I want to connect through the airport that will have the best gate when I get off, so I don't have to walk very far.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:39.519
You've heard of like plane autists?
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.279
No, have you heard of have you heard of airport autists?
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:43.759
Yeah.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:49.359
It just let you like if you have this kind of like preference for things, I think it's a great use case for agents.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:53.759
Because if like people have these like weird experiences, I guess that they enjoy.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.680
And with agents, you can achieve them.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:56.079
Yes.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:57.680
Whereas before I wouldn't have had the time.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.880
I just had to I had to book my shitty I did flight, and it was what it was.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:04.240
But now I can really like give the agent like all the parameters I care about.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.039
And it can do a grid search to book the optimal flight.
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.079
I'm gonna become an airport guy, right?
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:21.839
Like you're like one of the guys with like the the plane tracker apps, except except you've got maps of airports in your camera to like next level.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.960
Holy shit.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:25.920
Okay, the thing that I wanna the thing that I want to wrap on real quick.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.480
So we we actually bring bring this around to software engineering uh in particular.
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:35.039
Uh first of all, before we get to the point, I do actually want to just read out a couple of tweets.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.799
So this was from Dax uh March 10, 2026.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.440
He said motherfuckers will do anything but read the code.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.640
And then um any thoughts?
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:49.599
I mean that was back in March, so completely different software engineering paradigm uh back then.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.000
Yeah.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.160
But I feel like we're motherfuckers then.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:52.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.799
We don't even read the chats.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:55.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:57.359
In fact, we don't even read.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.759
Yeah, we just stop reading early.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.279
We whisper flow to our DJI mics.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.839
I was gonna say, you'll whisper flowing on a DJI when I walked in.
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:05.119
Like that's the meta for sure.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.400
Like to an office?
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:06.799
Yeah.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.319
Because like you can whisper very quietly.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.480
I I went through like four or five mics, and the DJI mics you can go at the quietest by far.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.480
Well, you yeah, last time, last time I came over to your place, you were using a foot pedal.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.480
I have it here too, but it keeps moving around.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.160
It's like I I need to get one that's like bigger.
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:20.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.640
Because like I can't intuit like where it is.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.559
It's like too much, too much friction.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
Do you have like a complicated whisper flow setup or are you just like typing?
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:30.640
No, I'm vanilla.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.480
I use whisper flow whenever I get too tired to type, but I type faster than I talk.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:34.720
Sure.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:36.079
Titus is a slow typer.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:37.759
Zach does Zach types faster than he.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:38.880
Yeah, I don't know.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:39.599
I like typing.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.599
It makes me feel like connected to my work a little bit.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.720
That that checks out.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.359
But like like when when you speak, don't you feel like it's a different experience?
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.640
Like you can actually like you you would do more because the effort of typing is high.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.039
No, I really I really enjoy typing.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.599
It's fun.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.480
Like let's say we're gonna do like a really long rant about something.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.240
Then I will whisper for sure.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:56.559
Yeah.
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:03.920
Yeah, I I I am I am on the voice transcription route, even when I'm just talking to like, you know, chat GPT desktop app.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.640
So like like I will, I will, I will do all of that.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:11.279
Um next one here, next tweet here is from Primogym.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.319
Um and he this was in September.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:16.079
So it seems like 2026.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:21.519
Like he so he says, I still read the code, and he's got the he's got the guy that's like looking up around everybody.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:37.039
And so like like what I'm getting at from actually bringing up these two guys, um, uh other than uh uh growth hacking them and tagging them for engagement, uh, is that you know the like like the year 2026 has been about like like do you read the code or not?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.960
Because nobody's writing it anymore.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.559
Uh like I feel like most people that I talk to actually do still read the code.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.599
I mean you're not even reading the chat, so that's it doesn't even matter anymore.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:46.000
It's fine.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.720
You know, it's just like so confident in like No, I'm joking.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.680
I mean for inference code, we definitely still have to read the code.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:52.640
It's just yeah.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.680
And is it and you're still like user reviewing each other's PRs now?
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.720
What were you doing before me came?
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:58.480
Well hell no.
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:00.799
I hate PR review.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:02.960
I cannot understand people who are still doing PR review.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:03.519
Oh yeah?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:04.000
Interesting.
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.839
I'm bearish on all AI PR review, regular PR review, all PR review.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.359
I don't none of it.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.279
It's just not not a practice that makes any sense.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:12.799
It just adds too much friction in the company.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:18.079
It's like people complain about CI CD taking too long, like no PR review is like 10 times CI CD build times.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.759
And it's like uh I think you just have to like it's a social problem.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:22.799
There's no product to be made here.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.839
You just have to bully everyone's like you cannot push shit code and like everyone has to feel really bad about pushing shit code.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.240
Yeah.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.480
Um to literally just skill issue, like get good.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:31.359
It's like a culture issue.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.440
You just have to like everyone has to bully each other and like you can push domain, but don't push shit domain.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:35.920
Yeah.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.799
Uh because you can PR review yourself now, right?
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.720
Essentially, I mean like I mean if if you're good enough.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.480
I mean, like you don't you don't have to do it yourself.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:52.960
You can have the agents like review the PRs, blah blah find bugs, test, this and this, and it's like do you do do you echo this nick?
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:58.960
I echo this, although I mean for SaaS at this point, I I don't read anything.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:04.559
Yeah, I I think that SaaS has become like fully like you can run a SaaS company full on autopilot.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:15.039
Yeah like truly, you can just have you can have a look at the product metrics, optimize, manage ads, optimize, look at email research type.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.880
Yeah, or it's like verifiable and you can put a number on graphical.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:28.160
Like truly, I think SaaS is all like SEO, GEO, user feature requests, support, all this ads fully, fully on autopilot now.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:35.920
Uh and I do think like there's like a there's a more interesting take here, which is do people like working on hard problems or not?
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:36.480
Yeah.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:44.319
Because I think that most people uh do not like working on hard problems, and they're gonna gravitate to these like SaaS companies where they can more or less do nothing all day.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:44.799
Yes.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:50.960
Uh because now if you want to work on hard problems, you like really have to fight to seek them out.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.160
Like I think uh I actually have a lot of respect for building RL environments, uh, especially lately.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:56.319
Yeah.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:02.880
Because it's gotten quite hard to build an RL environment for which an agent cannot quickly and easily solve it, and to prevent it from reward hacking.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:03.279
Yep.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.480
Uh but we as humans have to treat kind of like career as our own RL environment.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:08.720
Yes.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.319
And then seek out you know jobs and opportunities that will actually challenge us.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:20.000
And I'm I think like out of all the safety arguments, I'm the most concerned about humans just like opting out of this and like not seeking this out.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:21.039
Totally, totally.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.119
Well all the all the RL environment companies just keep getting snapped up by the labs anyway.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:25.920
Yes.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.039
Rest in rest in peace mechanized.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:33.440
Maybe they'll pull it out.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:33.759
I don't know.
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:35.599
It's just yeah, it's like, what are we gonna do?
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.400
Like the because the agents are not gonna go find like hard stuff to work on themselves.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:49.200
Humans gotta figure that out, which is gonna be I think there's gonna be like more and more uh outcome disparity or more and more like inequity in outcomes or outcomes.
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:49.359
Yeah.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:59.680
Yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, like like the the the bottleneck for building great SAS uh pre uh November 2025 was like the act of coding.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:00.240
Yeah.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.799
Like like it's like such a such a large part of it, right?
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:08.480
It's like like, you know, learn like like learn good react, learn how to write good react.
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.720
It doesn't really matter as much anymore.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.839
I mean, like you can you want to you wanna maybe maybe you still want to prompt Good React.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:28.079
I mean I've seen I've seen some uh you know man-made horrors beyond my comprehension be shipped, uh be pushed to the browser, you know, like it's like like images that are unoptimized, and you just like you're getting like six megabyte packets just being shipped to the user.
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.680
It's like, well, you know, that's that's a that's a that's a prompting issue.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.559
That's a prompting issue.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:34.640
Like you didn't use you didn't use Sharp properly.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.440
But like other than that, yeah, it kind of goes to your guys' point, right?
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:39.200
It's like don't don't ship bad stuff.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:40.240
It's like get good.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.920
All that stuff's verifiable now.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:42.160
Yes.
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.440
Like like there's that thing like Aid and Buy is a thing like React Scan.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:54.720
Uh you can fix the React code, and then like you have you know page feed insights, and you have the different SEO GEO tools, and you just have the agent like loop against that till it tells you scored 100%.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.240
Yeah, pretty much.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:57.519
It's completely solved.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:58.559
It's kind of bizarre.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:58.799
Right.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:03.680
Like there was a point in time where you did have to understand to tell the agent, use sharp.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.920
Don't don't use use effect.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:06.240
Yes.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:11.039
Uh but that like you haven't had to think about any of that for like at least eight months.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:12.079
That's so interesting.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:13.839
You just have it verify against React scan.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.400
Just like make sure that we're not uh dual rendering.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:16.640
Yeah.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.519
You don't even have to.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.119
You can even prompt with just like performance stuff in mind.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:21.599
I don't know.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.839
I'm not as I'm not as aggressive as stage on this.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.279
I think that you do have to like loop against something to verify still, but yeah.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:29.039
It doesn't have to be pre-made, I think.
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.680
That's what I'm saying.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:34.160
Like it could be like the React Scan equivalent could be like a set of performance criteria.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:37.200
Yeah, that works too, but like it's just easy to use stuff like React Scan, I guess.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:37.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:38.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.880
Just like just prompt better, bro.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:34:04.000
I saw like a good Instagram reel and it was like a it was like a skit where some guy was going around from uh each like each person, like each person in an office, and they were looking at like the junior guy, and the junior guy had like a short prompt, and then the mid-level guy with like a slightly larger prompt, and then the CEO had like a 16-paragraph prompt.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:04.319
Yes.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.159
And I was like, wow, like whatever is happening with people that are six months behind the curve is getting really bizarre.
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:11.119
Totally, totally.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:15.280
I mean, I even feel this way, like I said, I you know I started this off by feeling like I need to build something.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.280
I truly do need to build something to like, you know, keep up with the times.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:23.519
I can talk about unk shit like Selenium and Sharp and React.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:26.639
React is just unk chopped and unk now.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:27.760
So unk, yeah.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.079
Hey, but the agents are still using Shad CN.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:31.679
Uh I don't think so, are they?
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:32.000
Really?
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:33.440
I don't know if they are anymore.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:35.039
I don't think that they are.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:36.000
What are they using now?
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.599
They stop straight tailwinds.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.639
Just straight Tailwind?
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.519
I mean, I I I mean I don't think they use Tailwind anymore, to be honest.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.719
They do raw CSS too.
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:43.440
They do raw CSS.
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:50.320
It did Shad CN like a year and a half ago and then it moved down to Tailwind and then Raw CSS.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.400
Maybe eventually it's just binary.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:53.280
Yeah.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:54.639
Styling and binary.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:00.400
Wait, wait, like, like, like raw CSS, so with like like like style sheets or with like inline styles?
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:03.840
Okay, interesting.
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:04.400
Interesting.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.000
But like style sheets was bad.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:06.400
Anyway.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.800
No Anki's like still talking about like the tailwind versus style sheet debate.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.800
No, this is nobody cares anymore.
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:16.239
It's all just English.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:17.840
None of this matters.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.280
Yeah, it is true.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.000
It is true.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.239
Um, but before before we wrap, do you um any any like interesting updates?
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:31.440
You want to you want to shill morph in any way, shape, or form, or just like just like keep it on wraps, next announcement, like you guys are at capacity anyway.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.159
Um you know, you have the courage to talk to your customers.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.000
Do you have the courage to hate them?
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:38.639
You guys don't you guys don't have to do that.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.000
I love customers.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:41.599
Just for what it's worth.
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.480
Whenever we have more GPUs, you can be our customer.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:44.960
Yeah.
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:46.960
Uh we're working on it.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.480
I hope to one day have so many GPUs that we can take on more customers.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:50.880
Yeah.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.079
Um right now, don't use more if you don't.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:56.159
Such a badass pitch for us.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:57.440
We just don't have any supply.
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.760
Yeah, we literally can't serve you right now.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:00.639
We wish we could.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.159
That's honestly like the most badass.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:08.000
I think I think in like a month and a half we'll we'll be in a good spot where we will probably go back to being like we love customers.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.599
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:18.960
Well, I mean, you know, just in in case you guys are wondering, uh Mots is now raising one billion dollars uh to, you know, to to build out uh, you know, I'm gonna just start building data sensors, I've decided.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.519
This is good.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.280
I'm happy that the compute anxiety has reached you.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.840
Yes, you are a Silicon Valley elite, yes, after all.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:24.719
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.639
So many, how many gigawatts are you building?
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.920
Um Well, I mean, how I I I actually don't think that like one billion dollars could actually get me that many, that many gigawatts.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:43.920
I I I initially tweeted out that uh Mots is gonna build out a 20 gigawatt uh 20 gigawatts worth of capacity with I think amount like I think that amounts to maybe like two million B200s.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.960
Um would be the largest build-out in human history, mind you.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.320
I think Mots could do it.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:49.440
I think Mots could do it.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:51.199
I'm pretty well connected here.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:53.840
You can uh go raise some indigenous land.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:55.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.639
Yeah, I'm like pretty good at land like land acknowledgments.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.840
So I think I think it it could help my case a fair bit.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.119
But yeah, we'll see.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:05.280
I think I think everyone's getting into the business of it.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.639
Um it is, yeah, the data center thing is fascinating.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.199
I um, you know, I joke about building data centers.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:15.119
I actually think uh not many people should build data centers, but it's a innovation centers.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.199
Yes, we're innovation centers.
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:18.480
Research acceleration plans.
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:21.199
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think I think this is I think this is good.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:22.000
I think it's good stuff.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.400
Well, gentlemen, I think that's a I think it's a good place to wrap up.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.039
Um you've been listening to another episode of Members of Technical Staff.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.199
We'll go ahead and see on the timeline again real soon.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:44.559
Okay, so I am uh back from New York City and I don't intend to actually travel anymore unless unless uh any any particular brands want to fly me out again and put me up and give me the vouchers and uh food credits and all those sorts of cool things.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.880
Uh I love being an influencer, it's great, it's amazing.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:51.920
An is an internet micro celebrity, uh an image, as Taylor Lorenz calls it, it's incredible.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:38:22.719
Um, but I digress a little bit sniffly, and I am back in SR, and I'm here to just let you know about uh Capi.ai, multiplayer IDE, uh now with agents in the cloud, Capi V2, Chatbase, your your all in one platform for customer service agents, individual customer service agents with chatbase language, your number one open source LLM or product, and of course, circle back AI, your company brain making ratings are memorable.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:30.000
Again, I haven't decided whether I'll put this either in the middle of my uh our our conversation with Mario Yoga or at the end.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.320
And so you'll hear the end product.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:33.280
And yeah.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:37.360
I'm gonna go ahead and end up, but I guess I'm just like that because I need it, and I'm just like.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:08.480
As members of technical staff, and sometimes I can get technical, but I've also found that like I um I feel like I need to build something, you know.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:17.039
I've not built something in like a year with with software, and so I I feel like I'm getting further and further away from the curve.
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:27.199
Like the last time that I did software engineering, quote unquote professionally, was when you still wrote code by hand, which was like pre-Opus 4.5.
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:28.719
And so that means what?
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.079
That is pre-November last year?
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:32.560
Yeah.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.079
Pre-November last year.
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.280
Stuff's kind of changed a fair bit in the last year.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:42.799
We're just saying like incredibly uh novel things on the Mots pod.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.079
Uh stuff has changed.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:44.880
Uh, any thoughts?
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.960
Any initial thoughts off the bat when it comes to like how software is changing?
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.640
I keep hearing um now now people are using like software factories or some shit.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.679
What does that even mean?
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.200
Do you guys use software factories?
00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:01.439
I think it's like a mix of taking like an Elon sound clip, like the real innovations in the factory, and like that sounds sick.
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.359
How do I put that in software?
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:08.480
And it's like you build a machine that builds a machine, it's like the test of philosophy is like all the engineering work is in the factory.
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:08.640
Yes.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:14.799
And software is like all the engineering work is in like building like your cloud code setup so that you can actually write software one shot easily.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:23.760
Is it do you is it like a do you think it's like a and and they're not a small sort of mods, but do you think it's like a Psyop by factory AI to sell more software factories?
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:28.959
Or do you think like like why like why why are people like why why did people decide to use that?
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.599
Like a software factory to me is just like a bunch of agents running at the same time.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:34.000
No?
00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:34.959
Am I crazy?
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.560
Modifying your skills and your prompt, but I don't know.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.680
People they want to call it call it something cool to feel better about themselves, I guess.
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:42.560
Have any thoughts on this?
00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:43.599
I have a much better thesis.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.000
I think that I think that's a new Gartner category.
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:46.480
Okay.
00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:54.239
So I think that Gartner uh and Forester have launched a new enterprise software category category called software factories.
00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:54.640
Okay, yeah.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:58.239
But this was all downstream of like the Twitter algo starting people starting to say it, no?
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:07.200
A Twitter algo, like oftentimes Gartner and Forester, whenever some term pops up that does not quite make sense to anybody, it's usually led by the by Gartner and Forester.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:15.039
So like all the major companies, like Cognition, uh XAI, Factory, would actually XAI wouldn't give a shit, but Cursor would have.
00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:20.400
They all pay fees to Gartner and Forester to get put on their market maps.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:21.360
They have like the quadrant.
00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:22.960
You ever see like the magic quadrant?
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:23.280
Yeah.
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.439
And you want to get like the top right position.
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:29.199
And to do that, you have to match the language that they say defines the category.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:35.520
So they decided that software category is a new uh grouping of companies.
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:36.879
Software factory companies?
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.039
Well, software factory is the name of their category.
00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:44.000
Uh like so instead of doing vibe coding companies, they're gonna do software factory.
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:51.759
And now everybody is trying to make sure that they get a lot of domain reputation and a lot of brand marketing around that term.
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.439
That way, whenever the magic quadrant comes out in Q1 of next year, they place well.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.240
Wow.
00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.560
Wait, so what even is Gartner?
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:01.199
I actually don't know.
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:02.400
I'm I'm looking it up right now.
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:04.879
Like, like Gartner Magic Quadrant.
00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:17.120
Yeah, so like if you're someone at like Walmart or Dick Sporting Goods or like Ace Hardware and you're in IT and you're trying to buy software, uh, you don't make that decision by yourself.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.520
You hire a consulting firm like Gartner or Forester to advise you on which software vendor you should pick.
00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:28.800
So, like, like, for example, uh CRMs are a category now.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.719
Yeah, and Salesforce leads that category.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:35.199
So if you're gonna buy a CRM, you're gonna go to Gartner and Forester and be like, which CRM should I buy?
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.759
And their default recommendation is always gonna be Salesforce.
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:38.800
So interesting.
00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.800
I've I'd never heard of Gartner and Forrester.
00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:51.120
Like, cause I because I think of like Big Three, McKinsey, Bain, and BCG, and then big four, Deloitte, uh, KPMG.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.439
I think it's Accenture and EY.
00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.439
I think that's correct.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:56.400
I think that's correct.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.039
BPO consulting and then accounting.
00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.439
Yes.
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:00.879
Uh as like those two categories.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.680
But then for software purchases as Gartner and Forester.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:04.800
That's crazy.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:06.319
This is like the other side of marketing.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:06.639
Yeah.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.439
This is this is um like you don't you don't hear this shit.
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:10.719
I feel like you should tweet about this.
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:12.319
Is this still relevant today though?
00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:12.719
Yes.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.000
You don't think that they just go to ChatGPT and say what CRM do I buy?
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:17.199
There's no way that they don't do that.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:17.839
No, no, no.
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:22.160
When you're the CTO of Costco, you don't go to ChatGPT and say what software should be.
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:22.879
You go to the boys.
00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.000
You go to the boys at Gar.
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:26.240
It's actually the girls for the most part.
00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:27.519
There's no way.
00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:29.199
You just go to the you just go to the homies.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.839
Two years ago I buy that.
00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.120
There's no chance of doing that today.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.319
The economy still runs off of guys, right?
00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:37.199
Guys for things.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.240
And guys is gender neutral in this in this case as well, actually.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.240
But like having a guy for a thing.
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:50.000
So so so yeah, like Costco guy, big guy at Costco has their guy to tell them about their marketing thing.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.920
What quadrant they're in, or what quadrant they should use, what quadrant their the CRM that they should use is in.
00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:56.720
Yes, yes.
00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.279
And then they'll even say things to their Gardener rep like, I'm okay getting not the best.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.480
I want the most innovative.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:02.720
Yeah.
00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:07.439
And the Gardner rep will be like, oh, you should try Addio or you should try Monaco.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:07.759
Yeah.
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:12.160
Uh but if they say like, I want the best, that's not gonna get me fired, then they'll be like, okay, you go with Costco.
00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.639
And then then they're like, that'll be for like five million dollars.
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:15.519
And they're like, yeah, cool.
00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:17.279
Yeah, yeah, sick.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.000
I love the old economy so much.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:21.519
It's still kind of how it works.
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.560
Like uh Cognition sells BP sells to BPO consulting firms uh hand over fist.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:26.959
Yeah.
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.120
Um I think I feel like all of all of those like token reseller guys kind of do, right?
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:50.160
It's like like either like the consulting firms, the banks, Fortune 500, and like as far as I'm as far as I'm aware, they're they're able to go and just be like, okay, well, um with us you have access to all the models, also you have like like custom environments, uh ZDR, all of these sorts of things.
00:05:50.399 --> 00:06:12.560
Because like I feel like I feel like uh and and this is actually it's relevant, actually, because it's like I had um I had this as sort of like a question, but it's like um the the question that I get asked, right, as as as is is like why would why would one of those companies even go to a token reseller if they could just go to like you know anthropic and ask for zero data retention?
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:18.399
It's like like why isn't it because because obviously you guys sell to the like you know you guys sell to the coding agents.
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.800
And so like why like why would they even do that?
00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.920
Why would companies go to them versus uh a a lab?
00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.399
Like why why use an open source model?
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.519
Or like you mean like why like okay, like let's do first, like why would you open use an open source model?
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.240
Like I obviously I know the answer to that because uh my fucking show.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:41.680
Uh but like but then but then two, why would you then say use an open source model with say cognition or factory?
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.040
Like I think of them as like the you know the the the token resellers.
00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.360
I don't know if they consider that to be a slur, but yeah.
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.439
I mean, I guess they they're like a mix, like they consume from all the providers, right?
00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.879
Like fireworks, everyone.
00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.120
Uh and then they also house themselves.
00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.079
But like inference is kind of like a commodity market almost, right?
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.079
Like the the end product is a commodity, right?
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:05.759
The way you generate the commodities, there's some differentiation, but like at the end of the day, it's just like price, speed, reliability.
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:06.240
Yes.
00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:11.040
Um and so like why someone wouldn't use anthropic open AI, it's price or speed.
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.399
Uh there's some aspect of like uh like constraints, right?
00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.639
Like on anthropic won't do like security stuff, right?
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:23.279
It's like hugging face very openly had to use GLM53 to bounce the the hack that came in, right?
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.199
And so that that's a smaller portion, I would say the biggest which is price and speed, really.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:27.759
For sure.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.399
That makes sense.
00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:28.879
That makes sense.
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.160
That's uh similar answer to that to what I got.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:33.279
Any any anything to add then?
00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.560
I think enterprises are like less rational than that.
00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.040
Like if you think of uh if you think of like Disney Cruises, yeah.
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.920
Disney Cruises probably bought factory recognition, right?
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:50.959
Yeah, but they're just not gonna get the sales support that they need from like Anthropic or OpenAI to buy a product from them.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:51.519
Totally.
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.360
Uh they're gonna be they want to make like the enterprise tier for those.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.759
So you end up going with like factory recognition.
00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.720
And that's I I like those examples, right?
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:02.879
Like Carnival Cruise buys a lot of software.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.360
Yes.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:10.720
So is Carnival Cruise like kind of raw dog a morph subscription to get their tokens?
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:12.800
I mean, if they get through open router.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:13.439
Maybe.
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:13.680
Yes.
00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:15.680
I mean, right now we don't even have to answer these questions.
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.120
We're just completely capacity constrained, right?
00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:17.759
Totally, yeah.
00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:19.920
It's like every day it's just how do we get more GPUs?
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:21.519
Is the only question that really matters.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:21.920
Yeah.
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:22.160
Yeah.
00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.800
And then maybe eventually we'll have so much compute that we'll have to go back and be like, okay, how do we how do we convince customers to use us?
00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:29.279
Yeah.
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.639
But until that day comes, we're just focused like only focused on the.
00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.720
That's actually like that's that seems like that seems like to be a decent problem to have, no?
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.279
Um yeah, I mean it's it's a harder problem.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.440
The sales is much easier than trying to figure out like how to get compute in today's market.
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:44.399
Because that's that's the thing.
00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:51.279
I mean, like, I feel like whenever I whenever I speak to a factory cognition, black box, whatever, it does seem to be a game of enterprise sales.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:58.879
Um and because I mean like, you know, without without sort of throwing any of them under the bus, they're all doing very similar things.
00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:04.159
I mean, like those, those three in particular, I mean, they're just they're just straight up direct competitors.
00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:04.399
Yeah.
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:11.919
Um obviously, like I personally, for solo dev stuff, I'm always spinning up like a codex in a CLI.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:12.399
Right?
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.879
Or like multiple codecs and CLIs.
00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.039
Which actually also brings me to my next thing.
00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:20.559
Uh I notice you guys are still using CLIs mostly, right?
00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.399
I like I've sorry?
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:23.200
I use a Merx.
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.600
I use uh Okay, well that was gonna be my question.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.600
It's like like CLI versus desktop app and the big two six.
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:30.320
Yeah.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.120
It's like I have like way too many subscriptions now.
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:33.440
Yeah.
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:38.480
I spend I think I think that my spend is now, personal spend is like 2500 on subscriptions.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.440
So like I have like six cloud subscriptions and like three or four codec subscriptions.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:43.840
Nice.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.240
And codex is desktop app and then cloud codes are.
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:47.840
Oh, interesting, interesting.
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.279
Why like like why why the difference between providers?
00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.120
Well like the cloud desktop app is not very good.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.679
Okay, so just so like you're you're basically like, okay, well, if the desktop app is good, I'll use it.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:59.759
Uh seems kind of like reasonable.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:01.279
Yeah, what's the other reason?
00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.440
There's like some feature that the desktop app has that convince me.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.200
Yeah, the computer use is really good in the desktop app.
00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.879
In the beginning, they only supported computer use from the desktop app.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.039
They recently added to the CLI, I think.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:11.440
Yeah.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:15.200
Uh so that was the that was what got me in the desktop app, was the browser and computer use.
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:16.639
Okay, checks out, checks out.
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:18.000
I've never even bothered to try it, right?
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:19.039
Because I'm like such a Luddite.
00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.039
I'm like, I'm like, dude, like You don't have to like fill out forms or something that you don't want to fill out?
00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.480
Um I just love I just love zipping around the terminal.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:27.840
I just I just I just love doing that.
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:29.919
Like a form that you have to use a browser for.
00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:31.120
Oh yeah.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:31.600
Yeah.
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:33.600
If I have to use the browser, I will use it.
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:34.320
Like I'm not gonna like.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.759
Yeah, but like then don't you want to use codex?
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:37.759
Did you fill out your browser forms and whatnot?
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.919
Um no, I don't actually.
00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:40.639
I don't.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:43.120
You like filling them out just to feel something.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:43.840
Just to feel.
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.080
Yeah, I'm just like I'm raw dogging the forms.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:47.279
Well that's the thing.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:56.080
I mean, I think I there is like, you know, I'm I'm leaving, I'm definitely leaving productivity on the table, like not just just not having been in it for the last year.
00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:03.360
Like I like I think I feel like what I use uh what I use like codex for most of the time nowadays is actually like file compression and conversion.
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:12.639
So just like just like navigating to my directory and just being like, hey, um this this like video file, I literally cannot post this on X because it's too big.
00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.039
Like use handbrake to some FFM pegs.
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:15.519
Exactly.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.600
Like like use FFM peg to compress it.
00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.039
And like that's that shit's like that that's life-changing.
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.559
Imagine trying to do that without without codex, like I just wouldn't.
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:32.240
Like I'd find like some sketchy, like sketchy website, you know, filled with ads to do it for me.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:33.919
Welcome to 2025.
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:37.519
It's back in 2025.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.759
Because I discovered GPT6 can CD to my folder and use FFM peg.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.440
Exactly, exactly.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.279
It's pretty good actually.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:45.840
It's pretty good.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:48.879
I mean, yeah, now now I've got GPT-6 like doing some editing stuff.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:50.399
We were just talking about this a little bit before.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.399
Uh kinda good, kind of good.
00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:54.720
Uh using it inside inside Kino.
00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.279
I'm just like mentioning all of these companies that don't even sponsor mods.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.000
Like I'm just like a like I'm kind of doing my actual sponsors a bit of a disservice here.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.080
Uh, but yeah, but yeah.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.159
So like, but yeah, like like that, I mean that makes sense.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.399
I'm still just like so I'm I'm like so CLI pill, but it's mostly like an ego thing.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.000
Any any thoughts on this, Nick?
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:19.919
I I prefer the CLIs for whenever I have to be focused, I think because there's less distraction.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.039
Like they're just a little bit simpler to look at UX-wise.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:46.720
Uh I also still think that the like I think that the user experiences that exist in the CLI, like whether you're just using regular VS Code terminal panes or like regular iTerm, uh, or you're using you know herder or whatever, uh to manage the different agent sessions, I think all that software works a lot better than having many parallel things in the desktop app.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:47.360
Yes.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.159
I also think that the desktop apps really try to encourage you to use cloud agents.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:52.639
Right.
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.279
And I think that the cloud agent thing does not work very well.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.000
Yeah, I agree.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.320
Uh I mean it could just be the nature of our work as well.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.320
Like if you're just doing Reacta, is it fine?
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:08.320
It probably is, but I just think that you have a lot of like context and ends up living locally on your computer, and it's better to run agents locally whenever you can.
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:09.120
Totally.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:16.960
Or I think like I think part of what makes products like Rockbot and Muse and Instinct so good is that they only have one machine.
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:17.600
Yeah.
00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:19.679
Uh instead of a sandbox for each task.
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.639
Having a sandbox for each task, I think, was like a big blocker to desktop adoption for a long time.
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.000
Especially for cursor.
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:26.480
Yep.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:28.720
Uh which is kind of crazy.
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:37.279
Like the fact that like cursors the level of like, if you go like Google Search Trends, like the level of fall-off for cursor is insane.
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:37.759
Pretty well.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.279
It happens significantly faster and more abruptly than you would have expected.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:42.080
I would have expected.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:42.399
Yeah.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:43.679
Post-acquisition?
00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:44.879
Yeah, post-acquisition.
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.039
Like they're not even gonna make the magic quadrant.
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.879
Like Cappy is probably gonna be the magic quadrant.
00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:51.039
And cursor's not gonna be in it.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.799
Cappy's just taking over.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.639
This is kind of crazy to think about.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.679
Like that's kind of where search trends have shaken out.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:58.639
Totally, totally.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:00.480
I mean you touched on you touched on cloud agents.
00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.840
Like, I mean, like what is what is the case for cloud agents, right?
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.279
I mean, like, it seems to me that it's a little bit more useful for like, I've heard, like, uh uh, you know, like like just like working with working with repositories, right?
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.679
Or like, or like I mean it's like it's like it's like shared context, right?
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:20.960
Um, between employees.
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.639
Is this probably the right way to think about it?
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.039
I think like Muse and Grok are like the best examples of cloud agents that work.
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.879
I think cloud agents that don't work are the ones like what Nick was saying, where they all have different file systems.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:31.200
Yes.
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.120
And because like I think if you're like an employee at Cursory, you're like, man, this is sick, let's ship this.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:48.799
And because like you're like intuiting, like, oh, this project has this file and this project has this files, but like if you're Joe Schmo and you're like, I downloaded this form to my downloads, fill this out, and it's like, oh, I can't find that file because it's not in that file system, it's in like another file system or it's on your local file system.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.240
Like the the the average user doesn't have this concept of like separate file systems or just like I have my files, just like do my shit.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.559
Yeah, just just like just traverse my entire yeah.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:14:58.960
Yeah.
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:05.919
So I almost feel like from a dev perspective, in order for like a cloud system to work has to like sync file systems, or be one file system.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:11.360
Um or like something that could work as well as like the Gracom use case where it's like a persistent file system at least.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.559
That's like the minimum bar is like at least have everything on one machine.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:15.360
Totally.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.279
Do you guys use do you guys use many like like of the of the of the personal agents?
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.600
Like the the groc bots, the news agents, etc.
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:08.960
Um I used Instinct to uh buy like the Costco delivery that came and then uh to buy shoes.
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.840
Just to typically just to wrap web experiences I don't want to go do.
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:13.039
That's the only that's the only thing.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:14.320
Oh, you used it to buy shoes?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.840
Yeah, because I really don't want to go like the the websites are always slow, if you like click it.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:18.879
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:19.919
Uh it's just annoying.
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.399
So that plus the Costco same day.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:23.919
Uh yeah, that's basically it.
00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:24.639
That makes sense.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.559
Yeah, it's like it's like uh, I don't know.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:28.159
I'm I'm still trying to.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.519
I feel like I don't know, I don't know if you guys are like this at all.
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:37.360
Um and again, maybe I'm just like a proper fucking Luddite that actually hates technology.
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:38.639
Maybe that is the case.
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:46.879
But I feel like my my barrier for trying new software now, like like it's it's so like I'm almost like averse to it.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:59.039
I feel and I don't know if that's a case of like like I feel like I'm being thrown a slightly different version of the same thing every single week, and I'm like, like I've like I tried this earlier in the year, you know?
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:11.680
And it's like I like like it's like useful for for some things, but like a lot of a lot of the personal assistant work that I do, like I want to have my eyes on, like I want to read all of my text messages, I want to read all of my emails.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:29.359
Like I could maybe save a little bit of time with summaries and like maybe I could reply to some emails with an AI generated response, but like my my my job is so dependent on knowing what people are saying to me and like prepping materials myself.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:37.279
And so maybe like maybe I'm maybe I'm a like an exception to it, but I just I I I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and say it.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.519
I feel like they're just not that useful for me.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.599
There I said it.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.039
The most useful part is like wrapping browser experiences they don't want to do.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.000
I feel like the whole like going through emails and stuff is like not that not that useful.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:48.559
Right, right.
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.680
Like booking flights, I would never want an agent touching my flights.
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:57.599
Do you ever use like Yard systems or like something that's like a really, really old like legacy software that's like super, super slow and super laggy?
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.079
No, I use like uh What is Yard systems?
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.880
It's like some like it's like Salesforce before Salesforce.
00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:03.839
It's like even worse.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.720
I got I was I was thinking of like I was just thinking of like straight up just like like selenium web scrapers or something.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.559
Like like automating.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.720
You are on the Australian visa stuff, right?
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:16.880
Yeah.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:18.799
Like the website I'm sure is really poor.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:25.839
I feel like that stuff, the personal agent stuff becomes quite quite nice because it like it'll turn at that for like an hour and just like do the stuff that you don't want to do.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.799
But part of the friction there is that you also have to give it a lot of stuff.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:29.519
You have to give it your social.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:30.480
And like that, of course.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.240
There's a like onboarding friction, and so I think there is a case for them being useless.
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.359
Totally cooked.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.519
Yeah, I don't okay.
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:40.960
I don't use personal agents at all.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.160
Like I tried Grockbot and Muse and stuff, it did not stick at all for me.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.839
But I do a bunch of personal agent tasks from like Claw Code and Codecs.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.240
Yes, which has always been the breakthrough for me.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:58.720
Like uh, I mean, I think I just I feel like I handle uh too much communication for for uh like at all times.
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:05.440
Like there's just so many inst like Twitter DMs and there's uh so many text messages and like emails that I cannot keep up.
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:11.920
And I can use the personal agent to just like mark a lot of the spam red uh whenever it's not relevant to me.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.480
And I can also use it to like whenever sometimes I do want to reply to cold DMs.
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.079
Like I try to reply to as many of those as I can, but it when they're earnest.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.079
So like good example.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.640
I did a show HN last week, and somebody emailed me and they were like, what do you do after you do a show HN?
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.160
Just like I'm just looking for tips.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.799
And you can tell the guy was super earnest, handwritten email.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:31.119
Yep.
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.559
You know, like the agents helped me find some of that stuff, and then they also handled like a lot, a lot of minutiae.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.200
Like I lost my driver's license last year, and it handled getting me the replacement without me having to go to the website or do anything at all.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.519
Uh it just point of like really annoying browser use.
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.240
Really annoying browser use is I think the critical thing for it.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.160
Yeah, might be the only thing, honestly.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:53.279
Only thing.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.920
I'm I'm very pilled.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:02.720
I saw uh I saw a take somewhere on Twitter, I don't know who it was, so I can't give proper credit, but someone was like, who's building the personal assistant for like busy moms?
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:03.279
Sure.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.359
And I was like, no, this makes so much sense.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.599
Yeah.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:16.000
Like imagine you know, you've got like you've got like three kids and you're trying to coordinate like all their school stuff and then sports practice and you know, all this kind of thing.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.559
That's probably the kind of person that needs a personal assistant the most.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:18.799
Yeah.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.799
That's probably also a lot of annoying browser use.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.440
Like sign up for soccer, school website, that kind of stuff.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.920
Shopping lists, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:26.720
Applications.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.920
Then that that makes sense.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:28.640
That makes sense.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:34.079
Yeah, but like I don't know, that that to me, that to me seems like a bit of a that seems more like a marketing problem, right?
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:42.079
I think it was um I think it was Strichecari that was talking about how like all of all of these tech companies they market these things as like productivity enhancers.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:49.359
And it's just like like I don't you know, I I I like resonate with the idea that like the average person actually doesn't really want to be more pro productive.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Yeah, it's like I can I can't like I'm actually not sure that's the case.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:21:00.319
The the the booking flights example, like that example that just keeps perpetuating, like seems like totally moronic to me.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:04.079
Like I would never want a personal agent fucking touching my flights.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:04.880
Why is that?
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.000
I I definitely do, I definitely do use them to book my flights and I like it a lot.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.480
So I don't yeah, I don't understand like why you don't like the booty.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:22.640
Because I I feel like like I like I know exact I kind of just I know exactly what flight I want, like I like I know what seat I want, I I know the the the better times of day to fly, etc.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.000
Um I know what airline.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:25.759
Do you like using the UI for that?
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.519
Or do you not trust the agent to to take that and actually do that?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:30.720
The latter.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:31.359
The latter.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:41.200
Maybe it's because you were so early you've already used it, but like it's the type of thing where like in like three months, it's like a lot of the use cases have become possible that were not not trustworthy before.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.279
But also like for browser use especially, that's the case.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.599
Like three months ago, browser use was pretty shit compared to today.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.559
No, like that I could like that could that could totally be the case.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:59.200
And like it has been the case, like like OpenClaw was a was a big uh eye opener for me because like pre open claw, I was like, this shit, this shit, like it's just not no one's gonna use this shit.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.720
And then OpenClaw came out, I was like, fuck, I'm just wrong.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.160
Like, I was like so wrong.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.519
They weren't wrong about OpenClaw.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.440
But like the hype around it and like it it basically like kicked off an entire category.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:11.839
Yeah.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:12.160
Yeah.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.039
I mean even like Muse and uh the others, like they they use like the Grokwatt system, right?
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.480
They have like a soul.md file.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.960
It's like those like stepping stones, right?
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:22.799
I have a really good example for the flight thing.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:22.960
Yeah.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:25.440
So I'm not like an airline loyalist.
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.720
I will book like whatever airline.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.000
That makes sense.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.359
I like booking the premium airline for a given airport.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:37.039
So like if I'm flying in to Denver where it's a United hub, Denver has the premium terminal.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.599
Like the better restaurants and the better stores and whatnot.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.000
So I prefer to fly United if I'm going to Denver.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:51.279
But if I'm going to Detroit, for example, uh Detroit, they have two terminals, they have like Evans and Maknamara, and the United terminal is Evans and it sucks.
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:52.960
So I want to like book Delta.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.960
But there's a lot of airports I'm not as familiar with.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:05.359
So I really enjoyed using the agent to figure out like I'm willing to pay my 20% premium to fly to the air airline that has the premium terminal for this airport.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:06.480
Okay, interesting.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.119
Interesting.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.839
Well, I mean that's actually I've never heard of a case for that.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:18.319
Like I'm always just going, one airline, I want my status, like I want my uh cheaper upgrades with the status, I want my miles, etc.
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.839
And I like I don't consider myself to be like a points Nazi or whatever.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.079
But I but you know, I like like Wow.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:24.400
Yeah.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:25.519
You guys are snobs here.
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:27.599
I would fly spirit.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.319
Like I'm gonna do it.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.079
I'm I'm high maintenance now, dude.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.160
I'm like, it's like there's like little bits of lifestyle creep I've decided to add.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.119
I'm like I think the only premium thing I would like actually go for is Starlink.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:40.559
Like everything else is like just doesn't matter.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:41.920
United Starlink is very good.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.839
Yeah, I would pay a lot for Starlink, but like everything else is like I'll pay more for Starlink too, but no, I I like I like my airport beer.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.319
Yeah, the premium terminal.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.920
I don't want to go to the shitty terminal.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.519
I like my airport beer, the nice terminal.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:04.240
Well my thing is like I I'm I'm like I'm hell bent on cutting like cutting my wait time shorter and shorter.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.599
Like like, you know, I'm I'm I'm cutting my I pay for that too.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:08.400
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.079
Exactly, exactly.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.880
Agent can set that up too, like the VIP uh experience we go to airports, premiere access, yeah.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.240
You mean like clear or something?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:16.960
No, no, no, no.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:21.759
You can get like you can pay even more to get a better experience than clear where you can fully bypass lines.
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:21.920
Yeah.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.960
Like the what celebrities do.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.839
And then I'm not spending I'm not spending as much time at the airport.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.359
So I'm actually not even trying to spend any time at the terminal at all.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.680
But like again, that comes with if you're spending any time at the terminal at all, you fucked up, right?
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:33.839
Yeah.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.480
No, I like it.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.799
I even like flying during football season because like during football or NBA season, you can even get there and you can watch a game.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:40.480
Watch you can watch a game with an airport beer.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.240
Yeah, watch a game with an airport beer, then you get on the flight, and then usually the TV thing works, then you can keep watching the game on the flight.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.599
Dude, I'm I've I love this shit.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:58.240
I'm really deeply uh committed to enjoying as much as I can about air travel.
00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:01.039
Well, I mean, I okay.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:07.279
So if you're like if you're like Nick and you just love airports, maybe use your Muse agent to book your flights.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:08.400
Dude, it's dope.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.559
You can even like you can even go as far as like optimizing uh like if let's say you're gonna have to take a connection, right?
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:14.960
Yeah.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.279
Certain connections, like each flight's gate when you land at the airport is predetermined.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.680
So like the flight from like Denver to Detroit will always have the same gate.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:23.920
Yeah.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.440
For example, so you can decide like, oh, I'm taking a connection.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:34.240
So I want to take, I want to connect through the airport that will have the best gate when I get off, so I don't have to walk very far.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:39.519
You've heard of like plane autists?
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.279
No, have you heard of have you heard of airport autists?
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:43.759
Yeah.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:49.359
It just let you like if you have this kind of like preference for things, I think it's a great use case for agents.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:53.759
Because if like people have these like weird experiences, I guess that they enjoy.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.680
And with agents, you can achieve them.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:56.079
Yes.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:57.680
Whereas before I wouldn't have had the time.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.880
I just had to I had to book my shitty I did flight, and it was what it was.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:04.240
But now I can really like give the agent like all the parameters I care about.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.039
And it can do a grid search to book the optimal flight.
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.079
I'm gonna become an airport guy, right?
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:21.839
Like you're like one of the guys with like the the plane tracker apps, except except you've got maps of airports in your camera to like next level.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.960
Holy shit.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:25.920
Okay, the thing that I wanna the thing that I want to wrap on real quick.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.480
So we we actually bring bring this around to software engineering uh in particular.
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:35.039
Uh first of all, before we get to the point, I do actually want to just read out a couple of tweets.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.799
So this was from Dax uh March 10, 2026.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.440
He said motherfuckers will do anything but read the code.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.640
And then um any thoughts?
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:49.599
I mean that was back in March, so completely different software engineering paradigm uh back then.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.000
Yeah.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.160
But I feel like we're motherfuckers then.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:52.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.799
We don't even read the chats.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:55.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:57.359
In fact, we don't even read.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.759
Yeah, we just stop reading early.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.279
We whisper flow to our DJI mics.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.839
I was gonna say, you'll whisper flowing on a DJI when I walked in.
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:05.119
Like that's the meta for sure.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.400
Like to an office?
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:06.799
Yeah.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.319
Because like you can whisper very quietly.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.480
I I went through like four or five mics, and the DJI mics you can go at the quietest by far.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.480
Well, you yeah, last time, last time I came over to your place, you were using a foot pedal.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.480
I have it here too, but it keeps moving around.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.160
It's like I I need to get one that's like bigger.
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:20.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.640
Because like I can't intuit like where it is.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.559
It's like too much, too much friction.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
Do you have like a complicated whisper flow setup or are you just like typing?
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:30.640
No, I'm vanilla.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.480
I use whisper flow whenever I get too tired to type, but I type faster than I talk.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:34.720
Sure.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:36.079
Titus is a slow typer.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:37.759
Zach does Zach types faster than he.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:38.880
Yeah, I don't know.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:39.599
I like typing.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.599
It makes me feel like connected to my work a little bit.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.720
That that checks out.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.359
But like like when when you speak, don't you feel like it's a different experience?
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.640
Like you can actually like you you would do more because the effort of typing is high.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.039
No, I really I really enjoy typing.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.599
It's fun.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.480
Like let's say we're gonna do like a really long rant about something.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.240
Then I will whisper for sure.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:56.559
Yeah.
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:03.920
Yeah, I I I am I am on the voice transcription route, even when I'm just talking to like, you know, chat GPT desktop app.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.640
So like like I will, I will, I will do all of that.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:11.279
Um next one here, next tweet here is from Primogym.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.319
Um and he this was in September.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:16.079
So it seems like 2026.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:21.519
Like he so he says, I still read the code, and he's got the he's got the guy that's like looking up around everybody.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:37.039
And so like like what I'm getting at from actually bringing up these two guys, um, uh other than uh uh growth hacking them and tagging them for engagement, uh, is that you know the like like the year 2026 has been about like like do you read the code or not?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.960
Because nobody's writing it anymore.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.559
Uh like I feel like most people that I talk to actually do still read the code.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.599
I mean you're not even reading the chat, so that's it doesn't even matter anymore.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:46.000
It's fine.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.720
You know, it's just like so confident in like No, I'm joking.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.680
I mean for inference code, we definitely still have to read the code.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:52.640
It's just yeah.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.680
And is it and you're still like user reviewing each other's PRs now?
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.720
What were you doing before me came?
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:58.480
Well hell no.
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:00.799
I hate PR review.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:02.960
I cannot understand people who are still doing PR review.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:03.519
Oh yeah?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:04.000
Interesting.
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.839
I'm bearish on all AI PR review, regular PR review, all PR review.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.359
I don't none of it.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.279
It's just not not a practice that makes any sense.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:12.799
It just adds too much friction in the company.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:18.079
It's like people complain about CI CD taking too long, like no PR review is like 10 times CI CD build times.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.759
And it's like uh I think you just have to like it's a social problem.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:22.799
There's no product to be made here.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.839
You just have to bully everyone's like you cannot push shit code and like everyone has to feel really bad about pushing shit code.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.240
Yeah.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.480
Um to literally just skill issue, like get good.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:31.359
It's like a culture issue.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.440
You just have to like everyone has to bully each other and like you can push domain, but don't push shit domain.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:35.920
Yeah.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.799
Uh because you can PR review yourself now, right?
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.720
Essentially, I mean like I mean if if you're good enough.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.480
I mean, like you don't you don't have to do it yourself.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:52.960
You can have the agents like review the PRs, blah blah find bugs, test, this and this, and it's like do you do do you echo this nick?
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:58.960
I echo this, although I mean for SaaS at this point, I I don't read anything.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:04.559
Yeah, I I think that SaaS has become like fully like you can run a SaaS company full on autopilot.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:15.039
Yeah like truly, you can just have you can have a look at the product metrics, optimize, manage ads, optimize, look at email research type.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.880
Yeah, or it's like verifiable and you can put a number on graphical.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:28.160
Like truly, I think SaaS is all like SEO, GEO, user feature requests, support, all this ads fully, fully on autopilot now.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:35.920
Uh and I do think like there's like a there's a more interesting take here, which is do people like working on hard problems or not?
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:36.480
Yeah.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:44.319
Because I think that most people uh do not like working on hard problems, and they're gonna gravitate to these like SaaS companies where they can more or less do nothing all day.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:44.799
Yes.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:50.960
Uh because now if you want to work on hard problems, you like really have to fight to seek them out.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.160
Like I think uh I actually have a lot of respect for building RL environments, uh, especially lately.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:56.319
Yeah.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:02.880
Because it's gotten quite hard to build an RL environment for which an agent cannot quickly and easily solve it, and to prevent it from reward hacking.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:03.279
Yep.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.480
Uh but we as humans have to treat kind of like career as our own RL environment.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:08.720
Yes.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.319
And then seek out you know jobs and opportunities that will actually challenge us.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:20.000
And I'm I think like out of all the safety arguments, I'm the most concerned about humans just like opting out of this and like not seeking this out.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:21.039
Totally, totally.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.119
Well all the all the RL environment companies just keep getting snapped up by the labs anyway.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:25.920
Yes.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.039
Rest in rest in peace mechanized.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:33.440
Maybe they'll pull it out.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:33.759
I don't know.
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:35.599
It's just yeah, it's like, what are we gonna do?
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.400
Like the because the agents are not gonna go find like hard stuff to work on themselves.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:49.200
Humans gotta figure that out, which is gonna be I think there's gonna be like more and more uh outcome disparity or more and more like inequity in outcomes or outcomes.
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:49.359
Yeah.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:59.680
Yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, like like the the the bottleneck for building great SAS uh pre uh November 2025 was like the act of coding.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:00.240
Yeah.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.799
Like like it's like such a such a large part of it, right?
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:08.480
It's like like, you know, learn like like learn good react, learn how to write good react.
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.720
It doesn't really matter as much anymore.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.839
I mean, like you can you want to you wanna maybe maybe you still want to prompt Good React.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:28.079
I mean I've seen I've seen some uh you know man-made horrors beyond my comprehension be shipped, uh be pushed to the browser, you know, like it's like like images that are unoptimized, and you just like you're getting like six megabyte packets just being shipped to the user.
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.680
It's like, well, you know, that's that's a that's a that's a prompting issue.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.559
That's a prompting issue.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:34.640
Like you didn't use you didn't use Sharp properly.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.440
But like other than that, yeah, it kind of goes to your guys' point, right?
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:39.200
It's like don't don't ship bad stuff.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:40.240
It's like get good.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.920
All that stuff's verifiable now.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:42.160
Yes.
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.440
Like like there's that thing like Aid and Buy is a thing like React Scan.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:54.720
Uh you can fix the React code, and then like you have you know page feed insights, and you have the different SEO GEO tools, and you just have the agent like loop against that till it tells you scored 100%.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.240
Yeah, pretty much.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:57.519
It's completely solved.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:58.559
It's kind of bizarre.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:58.799
Right.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:03.680
Like there was a point in time where you did have to understand to tell the agent, use sharp.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.920
Don't don't use use effect.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:06.240
Yes.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:11.039
Uh but that like you haven't had to think about any of that for like at least eight months.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:12.079
That's so interesting.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:13.839
You just have it verify against React scan.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.400
Just like make sure that we're not uh dual rendering.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:16.640
Yeah.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.519
You don't even have to.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.119
You can even prompt with just like performance stuff in mind.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:21.599
I don't know.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.839
I'm not as I'm not as aggressive as stage on this.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.279
I think that you do have to like loop against something to verify still, but yeah.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:29.039
It doesn't have to be pre-made, I think.
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.680
That's what I'm saying.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:34.160
Like it could be like the React Scan equivalent could be like a set of performance criteria.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:37.200
Yeah, that works too, but like it's just easy to use stuff like React Scan, I guess.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:37.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:38.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.880
Just like just prompt better, bro.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:34:04.000
I saw like a good Instagram reel and it was like a it was like a skit where some guy was going around from uh each like each person, like each person in an office, and they were looking at like the junior guy, and the junior guy had like a short prompt, and then the mid-level guy with like a slightly larger prompt, and then the CEO had like a 16-paragraph prompt.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:04.319
Yes.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.159
And I was like, wow, like whatever is happening with people that are six months behind the curve is getting really bizarre.
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:11.119
Totally, totally.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:15.280
I mean, I even feel this way, like I said, I you know I started this off by feeling like I need to build something.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.280
I truly do need to build something to like, you know, keep up with the times.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:23.519
I can talk about unk shit like Selenium and Sharp and React.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:26.639
React is just unk chopped and unk now.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:27.760
So unk, yeah.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.079
Hey, but the agents are still using Shad CN.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:31.679
Uh I don't think so, are they?
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:32.000
Really?
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:33.440
I don't know if they are anymore.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:35.039
I don't think that they are.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:36.000
What are they using now?
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.599
They stop straight tailwinds.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.639
Just straight Tailwind?
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.519
I mean, I I I mean I don't think they use Tailwind anymore, to be honest.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.719
They do raw CSS too.
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:43.440
They do raw CSS.
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:50.320
It did Shad CN like a year and a half ago and then it moved down to Tailwind and then Raw CSS.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.400
Maybe eventually it's just binary.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:53.280
Yeah.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:54.639
Styling and binary.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:00.400
Wait, wait, like, like, like raw CSS, so with like like like style sheets or with like inline styles?
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:03.840
Okay, interesting.
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:04.400
Interesting.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.000
But like style sheets was bad.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:06.400
Anyway.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.800
No Anki's like still talking about like the tailwind versus style sheet debate.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.800
No, this is nobody cares anymore.
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:16.239
It's all just English.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:17.840
None of this matters.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.280
Yeah, it is true.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.000
It is true.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.239
Um, but before before we wrap, do you um any any like interesting updates?
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:31.440
You want to you want to shill morph in any way, shape, or form, or just like just like keep it on wraps, next announcement, like you guys are at capacity anyway.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.159
Um you know, you have the courage to talk to your customers.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.000
Do you have the courage to hate them?
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:38.639
You guys don't you guys don't have to do that.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.000
I love customers.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:41.599
Just for what it's worth.
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.480
Whenever we have more GPUs, you can be our customer.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:44.960
Yeah.
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:46.960
Uh we're working on it.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.480
I hope to one day have so many GPUs that we can take on more customers.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:50.880
Yeah.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.079
Um right now, don't use more if you don't.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:56.159
Such a badass pitch for us.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:57.440
We just don't have any supply.
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.760
Yeah, we literally can't serve you right now.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:00.639
We wish we could.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.159
That's honestly like the most badass.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:08.000
I think I think in like a month and a half we'll we'll be in a good spot where we will probably go back to being like we love customers.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.599
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:18.960
Well, I mean, you know, just in in case you guys are wondering, uh Mots is now raising one billion dollars uh to, you know, to to build out uh, you know, I'm gonna just start building data sensors, I've decided.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.519
This is good.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.280
I'm happy that the compute anxiety has reached you.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.840
Yes, you are a Silicon Valley elite, yes, after all.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:24.719
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.639
So many, how many gigawatts are you building?
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.920
Um Well, I mean, how I I I actually don't think that like one billion dollars could actually get me that many, that many gigawatts.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:43.920
I I I initially tweeted out that uh Mots is gonna build out a 20 gigawatt uh 20 gigawatts worth of capacity with I think amount like I think that amounts to maybe like two million B200s.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.960
Um would be the largest build-out in human history, mind you.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.320
I think Mots could do it.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:49.440
I think Mots could do it.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:51.199
I'm pretty well connected here.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:53.840
You can uh go raise some indigenous land.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:55.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.639
Yeah, I'm like pretty good at land like land acknowledgments.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.840
So I think I think it it could help my case a fair bit.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.119
But yeah, we'll see.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:05.280
I think I think everyone's getting into the business of it.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.639
Um it is, yeah, the data center thing is fascinating.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.199
I um, you know, I joke about building data centers.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:15.119
I actually think uh not many people should build data centers, but it's a innovation centers.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.199
Yes, we're innovation centers.
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:18.480
Research acceleration plans.
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:21.199
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think I think this is I think this is good.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:22.000
I think it's good stuff.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.400
Well, gentlemen, I think that's a I think it's a good place to wrap up.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.039
Um you've been listening to another episode of Members of Technical Staff.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.199
We'll go ahead and see on the timeline again real soon.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:44.559
Okay, so I am uh back from New York City and I don't intend to actually travel anymore unless unless uh any any particular brands want to fly me out again and put me up and give me the vouchers and uh food credits and all those sorts of cool things.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.880
Uh I love being an influencer, it's great, it's amazing.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:51.920
An is an internet micro celebrity, uh an image, as Taylor Lorenz calls it, it's incredible.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:38:22.719
Um, but I digress a little bit sniffly, and I am back in SR, and I'm here to just let you know about uh Capi.ai, multiplayer IDE, uh now with agents in the cloud, Capi V2, Chatbase, your your all in one platform for customer service agents, individual customer service agents with chatbase language, your number one open source LLM or product, and of course, circle back AI, your company brain making ratings are memorable.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:30.000
Again, I haven't decided whether I'll put this either in the middle of my uh our our conversation with Mario Yoga or at the end.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.320
And so you'll hear the end product.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:33.280
And yeah.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:37.360
I'm gonna go ahead and end up, but I guess I'm just like that because I need it, and I'm just like.
