00:00:09
Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is Cal's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now here's Cal.
00:00:20
Speaker 2: All right, friends and neighbors, Welcome to another episode of Cal's Week in Review. You know, the the interview sessions B sides. I don't know what we should call these, Phil. We're actually recording from the studio, so Phil's here. I'm not just making mental notes to them that occasionally make it into the podcast. So this episode is a good one. Listen up if you were intrigued, if you wrote in, especially if you wrote in asking for another perspective on New Mexico's E plus program, regarding the interview that we did with Mexico Wildlife Federation's executive director Jesse Dubell and his perspective or lay of the land on New Mexico's E plus program, you got it this episode right now with Rex Martinson. Rex is currently an outfitter in the state of New Mexico, New Mexico resident, and a former officer for New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. So is that most of that right, Rex?
00:01:38
Speaker 3: You're pretty close all the way around.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker 3: I currently work for Love of the Hunt outfitters here in New Mexico. I'm very new to that position work as the general manager. Previously, for the past eight years, supervised New Mexico's E plus system. There was we have an E plus program manager and he's kind of the day to day guy who does all the programming and all the details associated with E Plus. My job was to supervise that program along with our pronghorn program and our open gate access program. So that's where I come from. Previous to that, I was Missouri Department of Conservation employee. Spent about twenty seven almost thirty years there, and then I came out here and took that position as the E Plus and Private Land Programs manager for the State of New Mexico.
00:02:44
Speaker 4: Awesome.
00:02:45
Speaker 2: So this is a wonderfully complicated topic. It's only wonderful if you're kind of a conservation nerd like I am, who you know, has a lot of questions about how these programs get started, what their intent is, how they function, and how they work in the world of you know, managing game. Yeah, you know, I guess responsible wildlife management for folks who are new to this topic and and Rex, I'm gonna dish this off to you as quick as possible. But E plus probably as a definition out there that is not this, but the quick and dirty from from my armchair here is that it is a type of private land public access program. Whereas a land owner in the state of New Mexico who is able to demonstrate, particularly.
00:03:57
Speaker 4: With ELK.
00:03:59
Speaker 2: ELK, the use of that private property by ELK which are managed by the state, that landowner could receive a number of tags or no tags, but we're concentrating on the folks who have tags. Those tags are up for use. However that landowner sees fit so they can give them away or they can sell those tags on the open market.
00:04:33
Speaker 4: To hunters.
00:04:35
Speaker 2: And those hunters those tags are available to New Mexico residents and New Mexico non residents. Now by taking a part in the financial benefit of being able to sell a tag on the open market, that landowner has to agree to to open the gates essentially to their private land to.
00:05:06
Speaker 4: Anyone in that unit.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: With that valid tag. If they are using unit wide tags. There's also private land only tags or ranch only tags. In our circles, ranch only would be an ro tag. A unit wide tag it would be the other one. Unit wide tags would typically go for more money on the open market unless you are hooked up with the ranch that really has lots of awesome habitat, lots of awesome opportunity than those ranch only tags, meaning they're only good for that deeded ground, not the entire unit that that deeded ground resides in. Then that tag can be quite valuable as well. So this is a system that does allow public access to private ground. However, those tags are only good for the people who can afford them.
00:06:25
Speaker 4: Is that yeah? Pretty good?
00:06:28
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:06:28
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's the perception out there. The way you laid it out is probably how a lot of people look at it. Basically, I listened to your podcast with Jesse de Bell.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: And I'm not.
00:06:42
Speaker 3: Here to refute anything. My purpose was basically just to explain the E plus program, what it means to New Mexico, how New Mexico Game and Fish uses this to manage ELK in the state, some of the pros and cons. There's some things that I agree with Jesse that that could be different about E plus, But there's a lot of things that are really good about E plus that I think got glassed over just a little bit. So Uh, I guess with with all that said, I think that one of the main things that people need to realize about the E plus program is.
00:07:20
Speaker 2: Well, actually, if if you wouldn't mind, uh, we'll cover your your bona fides, just real, real briefly by I'll just ask you what what did you do in your position when when you were in charge of this E plus program or you oversaw this E plus program? What what did that job entail?
00:07:47
Speaker 3: It's a big program. Uh, there's a lot of detail uh involved in it. Every year, Uh, there's new ranches that apply for the program.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: So every year we have to review applications.
00:08:00
Speaker 3: We have to go through a scoring process to see if they qualify for the program. We have to map all of the properties in GIS so that we know the boundaries, and as you probably know, all the unit wide properties are now on ONYX, so you can see all the unit wide properties that are available for hunters in the fall. Then we also accept applications for what we call the Habitat Incentive Program, which is a way for landowners to potentially get additional authorizations for habitat work that they do on their private needed acres. So we have to go through all of those. Basically from about February through May is when all this stuff takes place. At the same time Game and Fish and you'll catch me saying we even though I don't work for them anymore.
00:09:02
Speaker 1: But it's still a bit of a habit.
00:09:04
Speaker 3: During that period of time, Game and Fish is making sure all the ranches are entered, all the agreements have come back. Because it's an annual program landowners participate in, so they have to sign an annual agreement if they still want to participate. So we're getting all that information in, We're making sure all the acres are correct. We also have to check and make sure that they if they bought additional acres, those get added to their account because it counts whenever we go through the allocation process if they've sold property or if a ranch.
00:09:40
Speaker 1: Has changed hands.
00:09:41
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of stuff going on in the E plus program to.
00:09:46
Speaker 1: Make it work.
00:09:47
Speaker 3: The actual allocation process, then, in very simple terms, is the push of a button. Once you enter all the values, all the ranches, all the acre values, you run the allocation for each unit. It automatically calculates how many private tags go to each ranch, and so once that allocation process is done, then we have to send out the allocation letters or emails for those that are hooked up for online only, and then those allocations, those authorization numbers then are distributed out to the landowners. Most of them are doing online now, but some still go out by mail. So there's a lot of detail in the mix with this. So I was basically overseeing that program how it worked, making sure everything was done properly and on time. And for such a big program, it was me the program manager, Aaron Roberts, and a clerk that that runs this whole outfit.
00:11:03
Speaker 2: So it's a pretty heavy lift there for for three folks.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: It is a huge lift.
00:11:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know a lot at stake as well as you know, oh yeah yeah, so you know the program thoroughly?
00:11:28
Speaker 1: Yes?
00:11:29
Speaker 2: And and when did because originally, like, has this land owner tag program changed over the years, I would I would assume it has.
00:11:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has, so that there's been several different versions of of E plus. I think that the actual E plus was developed around two thousand and five, which is a pretty close result imblemce of what it is now. Before that they called it something else, I forget what, but two thousand and five is kind of when E plus as we know it came into existence. There were a few tweaks from two thousand and five to twenty eighteen, but the big change came in twenty eighteen, and I was there for that.
00:12:25
Speaker 4: And what was that? What was the big the big change?
00:12:29
Speaker 3: So probably the biggest thing here is before twenty eighteen, there were really no real qualifications for a property to get in the program. It was basically run on a region to region basis. There's four regions management regions in New Mexico. Each region kind of ran eplus how they saw fit, which caused inconsistencies across the state. You had some properties getting in that didn't belong in. You had people getting these habitat incentives with no way to track it or no way to know what was going on. There were no criteria for properties to get in the program, and so in twenty eighteen we adopted the scoring criteria for properties to qualify for the program.
00:13:22
Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest things.
00:13:24
Speaker 3: And in doing that, because it became part of the rule, we had to score all the existing properties and all the new ones coming into the program in twenty eighteen, and as a result, of that game and fish eliminated seven hundred ranches from the E plus program that had no business being in there in the first place. That was one of the bigger things that happened. To another degree, we had how these authorizations were issued, and this is getting into a little bit of the detail of the program we changed.
00:14:07
Speaker 1: I'll try to keep it simple.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: We changed the distribution of those tags so that the small ranches in each unit had a better chance to get an authorization because they typically would sell THEIRS at a higher rate than the big ranches. So this is probably a good time to talk about how the E plus allocation process works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, on the tip of my tongue, because I can see your your wheels turning there, and uh so, here's how the allocation process works for E plus.
00:14:50
Speaker 1: It's simple.
00:14:52
Speaker 3: It's based on simple acre based calculations, and each unit is allotted by rule a certain number of bull tags, archery tags, and cow tags. And I'll use Game Management Unit fifteen for an example, because that entire unit is in the primary management zone and.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: A very popular unit.
00:15:25
Speaker 1: It is a popular unit, so I'm looking at I think these are twenty twenty.
00:15:33
Speaker 3: Three numbers there were nine hundred and twenty three bull tags for GMU fifteen. So what Gaming Fish does is they look at that unit, they calculate the number of public acres that's for service BLM and state trust land for that entire unit. They calculate the number of private aids in that unit, and you get a percentage split.
00:16:04
Speaker 1: You get what we call the public private split.
00:16:07
Speaker 3: So in GMU fifteen, seventy eight percent of the GMU is public land, twenty two percent is private land. So of the nine hundred and twenty three bull tags, seventy eight percent go to the public draw, which equates to seven hundred and twenty permits, and twenty two percent of those permits go to the private site, which is two hundred and three. And then we use the same calculation for either sex archery and cow tax. Okay, so it's based that the public acres. That percentage of acres comprises the percent of tags that will go to the public draw. The other twenty two percent are set aside for private land. And I'm just talking to bulltags right now. So in Unit fifteen, two hundred and three bull tags in twenty twenty three were set aside for the private land side. The private land tags that are issued in rule for each unit are then distributed to the private landowners through the E plus program. So there's the ELK rule that sets season dates, limits number of tags. There's the E plus rule that dictates how we distribute the private land tags. Okay, so how it works is the ranches that are signed up in the E plus program, they get a percentage of the tags based.
00:17:55
Speaker 1: On how many acres they have.
00:17:57
Speaker 3: So for example, and this is just simple example, if there were one hundred bull tags and you were a large landowner in this game management unit, and you had ten percent of the private land, you'd get ten percent.
00:18:12
Speaker 1: Of those bulltags.
00:18:14
Speaker 3: So you'd get out of the hundred bull tags, your acreage would combine enough to get ten of those bulltags, you get ten percent of them. So when the allocation is run, each private ranch is allocated a number of each type of tag bull either sex and cow based on the percentage of land masks that they make up in that game management unit. When you get so each ranch will get an allocation. The smaller the acreage goes, the less of an allocation they get, right yep. Until you get to a certain point where a ranch gets a fraction of a tag. Well, Game and Fish can't issue a fraction of a tag, So at that acreage there's a cutoff, and all the ranches of that acreage are below become what they call a small contributing ranch, and they take the combined acres and grab a percentage of their combined acres.
00:19:24
Speaker 1: So if you've.
00:19:25
Speaker 3: Got one hundred small contributing ranches and their percentage comes out to get fifty tags, those ranches will get They will draw for those fifty tags, so half of those ranches will get one and the other half won't. Gosha bigger ranches, the bigger ranches we call base ranches. They get an allocation every year because they have enough land mass to justify at least one hole authorization.
00:20:02
Speaker 4: And those.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: Right, and then those would still be subject to the tags issued by New Mexico Game and Fish that year. If you know, if surveys changed dramatically from year to.
00:20:20
Speaker 3: Year, yeah, if tag numbers go down. So the elks rule is on a four year cycle, So every four years, the Game and Fish will make a recommendation to the commission to either raise or lower or keep the numbers the same.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: So every four years.
00:20:38
Speaker 3: Those total numbers could change dependent on the unit to how many public tags are available and how many private tags are available.
00:20:53
Speaker 2: And then how is the determination made for a tag being a ranch on only tag or a tag being a unit wide tag.
00:21:04
Speaker 4: So that is.
00:21:05
Speaker 1: Up to the landowner.
00:21:06
Speaker 3: So they have a chance every year, Like I said earlier, it's every year, they have to sign an annual agreement, and during that particular time they can select the ranch only option or the unit wide option, and they can change. They can flip flop from year to year. It doesn't matter, game and fish doesn't matter. It doesn't account for do they get more or less tags if they're ranch only or unit wide. That's just a preference that's afforded to the landowner. If they want to participate in the program, they can keep their branch private by signing up ranch only, or they can sign up unit wide and then open their property up to public access as well.
00:21:54
Speaker 2: Got it, And so that that's one consideration. And then is that price in your experience instead of my outside experience? Is that also a consideration? Is it in fifteen for instance, or just in New Mexico in general? Is it typical that that ro tag is less valuable or is it just a case by case basis.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: Well, I think generally speaking, it's less valuable. It's only valuable on the really large ranches.
00:22:38
Speaker 1: And I think.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: I think Jesse kind of alluded to this in his comments that you know, there are some big ranches out there that have elk all year loan. There are big ranches they have nice elk there. They can count on those elf being there during the hunting season. So those ranches are typically going to go ranch only so they have complete control of who's on the ranch and when they're there. And those ranch only tags on those bigger properties can be very valuable. If you get a smaller ranch only property that's eighty acres two hundred acres, that's not going to be much of a selling point for somebody wanting to hunt elk because they are stuck to those deeded acres for sure.
00:23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine the eighty acre chunk that's going to hold onto elk consistently and long enough to provide that opportunity. Not that they're not out.
00:23:43
Speaker 3: There, but they may be there, but you shoot one time and they're gone.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Yep. Kind of a one and done deal.
00:23:53
Speaker 2: And so as the states concerned, is there a preference for either is there more monetary gain for the state for one tag or another, or is there just a flat fee coming back when these tags are sold.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: It's just based on what tags are sold.
00:24:26
Speaker 3: Game and Fish doesn't care if your ranch only or a unit wide. Really, all Game and Fish cares about is the management of ELK and the part that the private land tag program makes because those each unit's total tag allocation is based on a sustainable harvest right.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: So if we know we.
00:24:51
Speaker 3: Want to keep the population at a certain level or reduce it or whatever, we know we've got to hit a certain number of tags in order to hit that goal. So those private land tags are part of that calculation. It's part of Game and Fish's management program for ELK. It helps us achieve those goals and meet our harvest harvest management objectives for each of those units. But as far as what gets sold, we don't care as much how they sell them or how they use them, as long as as they are using.
00:25:34
Speaker 2: Them to meet that management objective.
00:25:39
Speaker 1: To meet a management objective exactly.
00:25:43
Speaker 2: And so yeah, from I guess from the the the retired Game and Fish perspective. What what's the general feeling on how E plus works.
00:26:00
Speaker 3: Well, it depends on who you ask. I mean, as far from a state agency position, it works great, Okay. It's a way to distribute tags to reach New Mexico Game and Fish's harvest objectives for the state. That the E plus program. I think it's it's worth mentioning that in statute in New Mexico's statute, it says the Director of the Department of Game and Fish shall issue landowner permits for the lawful taking of elk in accordance with regulations.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: Of the State Game Commission.
00:26:43
Speaker 3: So Game and Fish is mandated by statute to have a private land ELK program, and that private land ELK program is the E plus program. If E plus went away, there would still have to be something to replace it because the statute. Unless the statute changes and goes away, Game and Fish is still mandated to issue private land tax Okay, So I think that's important. The other thing that's important about the E plus program is it's really a recognition program for that recognizes the contributions that private landowners in New Mexico make to the overall ELK herd and elk.
00:27:33
Speaker 1: Management in the state. It's a unique program that.
00:27:40
Speaker 3: You know, Jesse pointed out, and others will agree, no other state has a program like this, good or bad or ugly. It's it's it's unique. It's unique to New Mexico. I came in, you know, from the outside. I came from Missouri. Most of the hunting there's private, and I came here and was exposed to this E plus program and I'm like, I kind of had some of the same concerns. I was like, Wow, we're we're giving these landowners elk tags.
00:28:14
Speaker 1: Seems interesting.
00:28:17
Speaker 3: The more I got into it and understood the program, understood the landscape, understood the New Mexico landowners, it made a whole lot more sense to me. I think a lot of people see this as an unfair program because these landowners are getting these authorizations and they're able to sell them, sometimes for a lot of money. But the flip side to that is these landowners have elk on them, maybe not during the hunting season, but the rest of the year they do. They're drinking water, they're tearing up fences, they're grazing on agricultural land, and without out those private private acres out there.
00:29:04
Speaker 1: Kind of propping up New.
00:29:07
Speaker 3: Mexico's elk herd, so to speak, it would be a different story. And this is just a really pretty decent way to recognize New Mexico landowners in the part they play in New Mexico's elk herd and ELK management. So, you know, like I said, I've kind of come full circle. I questioned it to begin with. The more I learned about it, the more it made sense and the impact that it has on the private landowner and these landowners.
00:29:41
Speaker 1: They like ELK. Yeah, they complain about them.
00:29:47
Speaker 3: They'll they'll complain about them tearing up their fences and stuff, But overall they like ELK because they know that it's good for the economy, it's good for the state of New Mexico. If they're in the E plus program, it can be good for them. Very few of these ranchers are getting rich on ELK. Most of them will tell you it doesn't even cover their damage expenses or what the ELK are doing on their property. But they're willing to accept ELK and tolerate ELK on their property if they know they get a little something back through this E plus program. We also have in New Mexico a landowner's taking rule. Most states do have a depredation type rule. Here in New Mexico, if a landowner's experiencing damage, they.
00:30:41
Speaker 1: Can just shoot out.
00:30:45
Speaker 3: And this program I think has helped stave that off. I think it's saved a lot of that depredation stuff because they feel like they are getting recognized at least to some degree through this E plus program.
00:31:00
Speaker 2: Depredation scenario or that's a there's the intent there is, like if you really want to kill them, you have to leave them la A two.
00:31:11
Speaker 4: Is that right?
00:31:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've got to call an officer within twenty four hours. They have to leave them, leave them in place. The game wardens usually have a list of people that will try to, you know, get them at least utilized for the meat.
00:31:29
Speaker 1: But it's kind of a.
00:31:33
Speaker 3: It's an ugly program, yeah, I think for sure. But the thing is in the E plus program, if a landowner is an E plus and they utilize the landowner taking, you know, if they just kill elk, then they're removed from the program for a minimum of three years. So there's an incentive for them to stay in the program and not shoot the elk. So I think it's I think it's good on that regard.
00:32:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not quite a stick and a carrot, but it there's enough of a stick there. I guess to say, like, if this is something you choose to do, make sure that you absolutely that that's kind of your last the last resort type of call.
00:32:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:32:27
Speaker 3: And once they make that determination, then they're out of the E plus program for three years, so they would miss out on that potential benefit as well.
00:32:39
Speaker 4: And then when.
00:32:42
Speaker 2: We look at it, we'll step back from the Okay, I guess we should ask, along with the E plus consideration from your time at the New Mexico game and ish, what was the I guess the public hunter perception of E plus during during your tenure? Well it or have you seen that change?
00:33:15
Speaker 4: I guess I haven't.
00:33:17
Speaker 3: Seen a lot of change in the public perception. The public hunters here in New Mexico. They know this program exists. Not many people complain directly to me about it. They know what's out there, they know why it's out there. They they realize that their draw odds for the public draw are challenging sometimes. But nobody really blamed the E plus program for that or let me just say, a very few percentage of the public hunters that I tell up to, we're really ripping on the E plus program.
00:34:05
Speaker 2: And then from the outfitter perspective, which which is the the gig you're in now, how does the E plus work from the from the outfitter side of things, the business side, nonag business.
00:34:21
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, it's a big part. It's a big part of the the outfitters business here in New Mexico. And again, this is kind of where we get into the money issue.
00:34:34
Speaker 1: And I know.
00:34:34
Speaker 3: That that sticks in a lot of people's crawl.
00:34:37
Speaker 1: You know that.
00:34:40
Speaker 3: These landowner tags do go for a lot of money, and most of them, in fact, do go to non residents, and a good portion of those go through the outfitter business.
00:34:52
Speaker 2: So, and would you mind explaining? So, yeah, was that two thousand part of the change in twenty eighteen, the outfitter preference part of that application? No, that that's been that was two thousand and five, that's been a long time. That well, the whole uh you're talking about the eighty four uh ten percent and six percent split in.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Public draw tags, I'm I must be.
00:35:27
Speaker 3: So that's a different rule, and that's been an effect for quite quite a while. I don't know where. Eighty eighty four percent of the public draw techs go to residents, ten percent go to the outfitted hunters, and six percent go to non residents.
00:35:45
Speaker 4: Right, so yeah, so.
00:35:49
Speaker 2: You but as a non resident applicant, would be increasing your odds by by going with a with an outfitter.
00:35:57
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, that is correct, but those that split that eighty four to ten to six split applies only to draw tags. It does not apply to E plus authorizations. Once that authorization is issued to a landowner, they can use it themselves. They can give it away, they can sell it, they can trade for it whatever.
00:36:24
Speaker 1: They want to do.
00:36:25
Speaker 3: And there's no restriction on resident or non resident.
00:36:29
Speaker 1: Who who they can sell it to or give it to.
00:36:32
Speaker 2: So is the fee on that New Mexico the state of New Mexico gets for that authorization, right because it doesn't become a tag until.
00:36:45
Speaker 1: It's got to be converted to a tag.
00:36:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, it gets paid for right, yes?
00:36:49
Speaker 1: Correct?
00:36:50
Speaker 2: Does that fee change between resident and non resident? Well from the if it's a landowner tag.
00:36:57
Speaker 3: Yes, so, Whoever, if you're a resident, you the resident fee if you're a non resident, you pay the non resident fee for that authorization, and.
00:37:06
Speaker 4: Do those fees.
00:37:09
Speaker 2: Pay for the e plus work being done by the state. It doesn't seem like it from the program that you laid out, but.
00:37:21
Speaker 3: You know, New Mexico is a state that gets all of its revenue from permit sales and federal excise reimbursements. We don't have a set aside sales tax or any other revenue generator, so it's all permit license driven and then the cost share from federal federal programs.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Did you feel like from going from a state like Missouri that is generally seen as flush with cash from a wildlife agency perspective, going from because they have a dedicated sales tax, correct, did you feel like when you made the jump to New Mexico game and fish that you weren't working with the amount of resources you had on the Missouri side of the line.
00:38:10
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:38:10
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah. Missouri's got almost two thousand full time employees. New Mexico has right around three hundred full time My gosh, So yeah, it was quite It was a little bit of culture shock going from there and coming to here. I really enjoyed it.
00:38:31
Speaker 1: It was it was fun.
00:38:32
Speaker 3: I enjoyed the whole time the last eight years, but it was definitely an eye opener that you know, you have a state, what New Mexico's like the ninth or fifth biggest state in the nation, and it's probably got one of the smaller game and fish, you know, personnel wise in the.
00:38:51
Speaker 2: Nation, which kind of I mean kind of just that math puts a lot to own us on the on the landowner in a lot of that state.
00:39:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:39:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's uh, it's day and night from Missouri to New Mexico for sure.
00:39:19
Speaker 2: And so then you know, from my experience, you know, the biggest incentive for an outfitter for to be a proponent of these transferable tags is the fact that you can guarantee of booking, so you're you're not reliant on the application process. You're not going to take a deposit from a group of guys that may or may not come hunt with you that year. It adds some uncertainty and some hoops. Whereas that tags that you can pull out of the hat when folks make that deposit and set those aside. Is it a lot safer on the business end of things?
00:40:10
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:40:10
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, when you put these and every outfitter does this the same way. I'm sure you will put in as many people as you can in the draw under your outfitter number, and then a certain percentage of those people will draw attack everybody else is either going to try to purchase a landowner tag or they'll just wait till next year to try to draw again. And this is where the money comes in. You know, there are a lot of wealthy non resident landowners, and there are wealthy New Mexico landowners as well, but the vast majority of folks that buy these landowner tags are non residents.
00:40:57
Speaker 1: Because it is so much harder for them to draw here.
00:41:01
Speaker 3: And those folks, I don't know where they get their money, but they got plenty of it and they don't mind spending it, but they'll put down a deposit. They'll put on a seven eight thousand dollars deposit on a landowner tag. And we have certain landowners we work with every year, so we kind of have.
00:41:19
Speaker 1: An idea how many we.
00:41:20
Speaker 3: Can book guaranteed hunts, and then we pick up a few extras every year when the list comes out, uh, and then those are those are guaranteed, Those those hunts we can book. They they know what they're getting into. They pay the landowner fee for the authorization they buy, use that authorization to buy their out of state hunting license and ELK license, and then they pay the outfitter fee for food.
00:41:49
Speaker 1: And lodging and a guide and those.
00:41:53
Speaker 3: It's very important for the outfitting business here in New Mexico to have this landowner program.
00:42:00
Speaker 4: Yep.
00:42:00
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I'd be like going down to the tire shop and hoping they get some tires in that day, right, yeah.
00:42:10
Speaker 3: And then the meantime you're sitting there with four flats.
00:42:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think every everybody can understand that. So where do we, you know, get this this consternation from you?
00:42:26
Speaker 4: You know?
00:42:27
Speaker 2: I I wish I was a little bit better with math Rex because like when we start dividing up these buckets of tags and then and running the percentages there, like where.
00:42:45
Speaker 4: The that.
00:42:48
Speaker 2: Resident non resident allotment? I know, I hear a lot of gripe consternation from folks in the state of New Mexico. Are they are? Is the the resident New Mexico hunter, you know, getting that fair allotment of tags at least a fair shot in the draw, I.
00:43:15
Speaker 1: Mean overall, yes, I think so.
00:43:20
Speaker 3: They If you want to hunt elk in New Mexico on a regular basis, when you put in for the draw, you get three choices right.
00:43:34
Speaker 1: On where, what unit you want to hunt in, and what dates.
00:43:40
Speaker 3: You have people who gripe about not getting drawn, And they every year they're putting in three choices for the heel of wilderness.
00:43:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, like first, second, first season, second season, third season. Yeah, that's the prime spot exactly.
00:43:58
Speaker 3: And and they're just shooting themselves in the foot if they if they really wanted to hunt elk and put meat in the freezer, they'd make a reasonable first choice for a bull hunt or an archery hunt, and then their other two choices they would set aside for cow hunts. And I can guarantee you they'd be hunting every other year in New Mexico.
00:44:23
Speaker 2: And and then they're hunting elk every other year in New Mexico. Somehow, some way, may not be the may not be the the uh the big.
00:44:36
Speaker 3: Right exactly, because they're gonna they're gonna make their first choice a bull hunt, whether that's an archery hunt or you know, early October hunt. You know, roll the dice try to get that bull hunt their other two choices, or their last choice. They could make a second choice a bull hunt somewhere and make their third choice of cow hunting Unit thirty four, Unit thirty six, where there's a lot of cowtegs and you're gonna hit those cow draws. You might get lucky and hit your first draw for bull or a second draw for bull, but your odds are going to go way up on a cow hunt.
00:45:09
Speaker 4: Yep, yep.
00:45:11
Speaker 1: So there's opportunity there.
00:45:12
Speaker 3: And the other thing I think too that yes, these the archery tags and the rifle bull tags and the E plus system, those authorization numbers for those hunts are pretty pricey. But your cow hunts, you can get a cow hunt for plus or minus one thousand dollars. Now for some people that may sound like a lot, but if you save fifty bucks one hundred bucks throughout the year, you can be hunting a cow elk every year on landowner tag.
00:45:46
Speaker 1: Sure.
00:45:48
Speaker 2: The yeah, the the economics of your weekly beer there you go.
00:45:53
Speaker 4: You know you're going to talk about that a lot.
00:45:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, But you know, on the flip side, you know that that's very much like a cultural thing too, to where It's like even if you have the money, you know, Montana kid growing up who's always had over the counter tags, you just you know, it's like that would be a very foreign thing to pay a thousand bucks for a cow, right, Yeah, for sure. And that's I think what we run up against here is like a culture shock of of Also, you know when we talk about those bulls.
00:46:39
Speaker 4: Is it.
00:46:41
Speaker 2: Are we at a place in hunting where not everyone deserves a crack at a bowl at you know, on a reasonable timescale, right? Are we migrating towards like, well, those bulls are going to be mostly an opportunity for folks that can afford that. And if you if you're not going to fork over big cash, you better get real lucky in the draw. And you know, I think that's a cultural thing too.
00:47:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the concern. I heard Jesse say that.
00:47:22
Speaker 3: Hunting elk in New Mexico is becoming a rich man's sport and a rich man's opportunity.
00:47:29
Speaker 1: That's that.
00:47:29
Speaker 3: I think that's a little extreme to look at it, because there's still a lot of New Mexico residents who hunt bulls every year, or you know, not individually every year.
00:47:40
Speaker 1: But eighty four.
00:47:41
Speaker 3: Percent of all those drawbacks go to New Mexico residents and they're hunting, you know, whatever they get. So there's still definitely an opportunity here for people to hunt elk. Again, I can't argue the fact that these private land authorizations gosh on the low end for a bull hunt.
00:48:06
Speaker 1: If you can get a bull hunt.
00:48:08
Speaker 3: Or an archery tag for six thousand dollars, yeah, better jump on it.
00:48:14
Speaker 4: Really.
00:48:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, way back when the cribs, I can't even tell you, probably two thousand seven ish right in there, I got a run down and guide in New Mexico, and the folks I had that I was guiding it purchased tags for I want to say, like twenty three hundred bucks apiece. And yeah, you know that was like there was certainly big money to me at that point, right, oh yeah, yeah.
00:48:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of it's kind of wild and and I have noticed in the eight years since I've been here that prices has grown quite a little bit. I know a friend of mine when I first came here, he purchased a private land tag I think for three thousand dollars. It was for a rifle bull hunt, and a decent unit, not a trophy unit, but a good unit. Him and his buddy bought two for three thousand bucks apiece, and now in that same unit, it's it's probably doubled. You're looking at five to six thousand. Just to crack the door, you know.
00:49:38
Speaker 2: And when we first started here, Rex, you know, we brought up Jesse Dubell, and you know, he's a passionate guy, and and you know, I think very passionate about the state of New Mexico in general. But you said that, you know there that you had you could share a few criticisms of the E plus program yourself. What would some of those be? Like, Like, we kind of had an offline conversation just to let you know what what I I being the pragmatist. Typically, when there's enough money involved, we don't see those programs go away. I know there's a fear from some groups and some landowners that E plus could totally go away. You know, I'd be shocked if that ever happened. I think there'd be so much litigation and all the stuff that typically goes with something like that. That probably isn't going to happen. But you know, I think just as we've talked about on this show so far. You know, this program has changed over the years, and you've been there to see some of that change.
00:50:54
Speaker 4: I think.
00:50:56
Speaker 2: The reform of the program would be something that is likely. We could see that. But what would would some of those those points be from from your perspective?
00:51:10
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. I think the thing that I.
00:51:16
Speaker 3: Do agree with Jesse is these tags are worth a lot of money, and I don't know what to do about that. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it unless somehow Game and Fish can control.
00:51:34
Speaker 1: You know, the price index. But how do you do that?
00:51:36
Speaker 3: Once you issue that authorization, it goes to the landowner, and that's part of the problem. I don't like the fact that and they Jessee and his crew use this a lot. The buy your way to the front of the line. I kind of don't like that either, but it's it's just a fact of how the system works right now.
00:52:02
Speaker 1: And honestly, I don't know if so.
00:52:07
Speaker 3: What the Wildlife Federation would like is for the Commission to open the E plus.
00:52:14
Speaker 1: Rule and rewrite it.
00:52:17
Speaker 3: But the problem is nobody's come up with what that rewrite would look like. Because you can't take all those private land tags and dump them into the public draw those and then the ranches have no incentive.
00:52:36
Speaker 1: To open up their property.
00:52:38
Speaker 3: The big ranches that we talked about earlier, they may still be able to make it because they're going to have elk. They're still going to have. You know, they can charge a trespass fee or whatever. But the same people, the same New Mexico residents who draw those extra tags, can't afford the trespass fee to go on that ranch and hunt their elk. So where are they going to go. They're going to go on the public land, which is going to include over crowding on public land and just a less quality experience for the hunters. Game and Fish would have to totally revamp the management program for elk if the E plus program went away, and I have no idea what that would look like, but it would be quite different than what a lot of people would expect.
00:53:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, it's kind of two sides of the same coin, whatever analogy you want to use here, because from my perspective, we need to keep hunting accessible for sure hunters. I think there's a lot of benefits to that that folks may not consider right, like having hunters out there on the landscape, the way hunters move across a landscape. And you know, obviously I'm talking about like responsible individuals who who care, who are stewards of the land and stewards of wildlife. Like it's good to have those those folks out there keeping an eye on things and standing up for those those big chunks of public you know, be a State for a service BLM, Bureau of Wreck all the different things out there, right, And just as much as you've pointed out, like we need those folks on the private side of the fence to be invested in habitat as well.
00:54:52
Speaker 1: Yes, right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:54:54
Speaker 3: And I want to point out one thing that I did disagree with with what Jesse had to say. The unit wide properties. I don't remember the exact number. It's just under a million acres of unit wide property that is now open for public elk.
00:55:16
Speaker 1: Hunters to utilize.
00:55:19
Speaker 3: And it is true that not all of those unit wide acres are good during the hunting season, but there's a bunch of it that is I've hunted on it, I've seen elk on it, I know people who have hunted and killed elk on unit wide properties, So there's that benefit in and of itself. The other thing that these unit wide properties do is provide a lot of access through the private into the public, which, as you know and many many Western hunters know that that's sometimes invaluable to be able to cut through a private piece to get back into what would normally be landlocked federal land. Now through the e plus system, with the unit wide properties, you've got all kinds of access points. You've got in holdings in the National Forest that used to you'd hear an elk bugle on across the canyon and you'd have to go eight miles around this private property to get over there. Now if they're in the unit wide program.
00:56:23
Speaker 1: You can just go straight through it.
00:56:24
Speaker 3: And like I said, all those properties are on Onyx, so you can see them right there, and it's been really great. The other thing that I think is important to point out. I touched on it earlier, but we didn't really get to talk about it, and that is the Habitat and centive program that's inn e plus.
00:56:48
Speaker 1: The Game and.
00:56:49
Speaker 3: Fish process is about two one hundred to two hundred and fifty habitat projects that are going on the ground for elk, specifically for elk.
00:57:00
Speaker 1: Some of those projects are huge.
00:57:02
Speaker 3: There's a lot of uh, you know, thinning out pinion juniper to open up more grasslands. There's water projects that are going into areas that are benefiting elk that the elk wouldn't normally be using that area if it weren't for this habitat project.
00:57:19
Speaker 1: And now there's water there.
00:57:22
Speaker 3: They can get recognition for deferring cattle grazing. So if some of these ranches are converting from hunting or from cattle ranches to hunting ranches, so if they take the cattle off that that can be a habitat and center of improvement.
00:57:40
Speaker 1: UH.
00:57:41
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of great things that are going on UH because of the E plus program. This Habitat and Center program is doing wonderful work on the ground UH for New Mexico's elk, elk herds, and elk management UH and even the ranches that are in the program, there is an incentive there for them to keep their ranch in good shape and keep elk.
00:58:04
Speaker 1: On it or around it.
00:58:06
Speaker 3: And like I said earlier, it's definitely a way to recognize the importance of the private landowner in New Mexico for elk management in the state.
00:58:21
Speaker 1: The other thing that.
00:58:22
Speaker 3: I kind of hate to hear over and over again is comparisons of New Mexico to other states. I'm here to tell you there's no other state like New Mexico, even as far as elk management, elk herds, where these elk occur, where they don't occur, right down to the traditional landowners who live here, the way the land is in many cases parceled out on deeds. There's still some great, big ranches, cattle ranches, and then there's a lot of historical ranches that have been parceled out into smaller pieces that are also very important for elk management. And a lot of people just don't understand the complexity of the human element and the elk management element in the state of New Mexico. It's very hard to compare New Mexico to any other state.
00:59:25
Speaker 4: Oh.
00:59:28
Speaker 2: I used to compare elk in New Mexico to Herford bulls. I mean, he gets wide bodied bulls down there that are just oh yeah, yeah, the great I mean the feed down there must be very special.
00:59:44
Speaker 3: Oh well, in certain places there there there's definitely some special places that produce these big, big bodied, big antler bulls.
00:59:54
Speaker 1: It's a special place, that's for sure. Yeah.
00:59:56
Speaker 2: Oh, I agree, land of enchantment, It's true.
01:00:01
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, I think where you know, the.
01:00:07
Speaker 2: The public land hunter, private land owner. One place that I think, looking towards the future, that we should really get together on would be improving feed on the public side of the fence, right like working on noxious weeds in these areas, with with grazing allotments, active grazing allotments, and you know, I think the habitat improvement on the private side of the fence is awesome. I do like to point out that that also benefits raising cattle on the private side of the fans, which you know, I have no problem with. But I don't h I think it'd be disingenuous to say we're we're only doing this for the elk, because it makes makes the place prettier, the kids want to stick around, and and makes makes the cat.
01:01:15
Speaker 4: A little fatter too, for sure.
01:01:18
Speaker 2: But I you know, I think the yeah, the the juniper removal, the effects that has on the water table, the resistance to fire. Sustainable grazing is something that that we'd like to see more and more on you know, on these Forest Service grounds b l M grounds. And I think one way the public hunter could help incentivize the landowner relationship is the is the fact that we know that there is good sustainable grazing practices that that can happen on public land that still provide great hunting opportunity.
01:02:14
Speaker 1: You know.
01:02:14
Speaker 2: The thing that gets thrown against the folks with grazing allotments is like, oh, yeah, by the time the hunting season rolls around, there's no feed up there and the elk don't want to be up there because it's been been over grazed like that. That can happen, you know, as there's bad hunters out there, just like there's bad cattle operators out.
01:02:37
Speaker 4: There too, right for sure. Yeah, but.
01:02:44
Speaker 2: I think there's there's plenty of working across the fence on on those types of issues there, and and we could increase that that public hunting opportunity by working on projects like that.
01:03:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:03:01
Speaker 3: I agree, there's a lot of state and federal land out there that's somewhat neglected, and I get it.
01:03:09
Speaker 1: You know, when you're dealing.
01:03:10
Speaker 3: With that much land mass, it takes a mass amount of money as well to implement those types of programs. So, but any little thing that that these federal land management agencies can do to you know, promote the wildlife that lived there and the public hunting and public use that takes.
01:03:31
Speaker 1: Place there, it's it's only going to be a plus.
01:03:34
Speaker 3: And and you know, just like the private land owner that's improving his land for cattle that benefit elk, the federal agencies will be doing projects that benefit wildlife that will also benefit the cattle that graze on those allotments as well. So it's you know, it's just the flip side of the same coin, basically.
01:03:57
Speaker 2: And everything looks better on the other side of the fence.
01:04:00
Speaker 3: We know that well for sure. Yeah, the grass is always greener there. Most of what I've talked about is what we call our primary management zone. That's where the E plus allocation system rests. That's where license numbers are set by the Commission and the distribution attacks is very strictly regulated. That's the primary management zone, the special Management zone, and Jesse de Bell talked about this.
01:04:26
Speaker 1: A little bit.
01:04:27
Speaker 3: That zone is basically two units. It's Unit fifty five A and Unit fifty four and those units are largely private only, but they're also in a location where Game and Fish still wants to have some control over the management.
01:04:46
Speaker 1: There, and the.
01:04:49
Speaker 3: Allocation attacks in the Special Management Zone are a negotiation between Game and Fish and the landowner. So if something were to happen in the future where elk numbers went down and Game and Fish said, hey, we need control over these these two particular units, Game and Fish still reserves the authority to issue less authorizations to those ranches, so it's not just free for all, and they are ranch only allocations there. There's there's no unit wide option in the Special Management Zone. The Secondary Management Zone is basically the rest of the state.
01:05:34
Speaker 1: Uh, there are elk out there.
01:05:37
Speaker 3: But they and and in some of those places there's quite a few elk, and there's the there's really good elk. But Game and Fish is not concentrated on herd management in the Secondary Management Zone, and those licenses are available over the counter.
01:05:55
Speaker 1: So in essence, the landowner is.
01:05:59
Speaker 3: Issuing access because I can go You could go buy an ELK tag in the Secondary Management Zone right now and put that in our pocket, but it would be useless unless we had private land with permission to go.
01:06:17
Speaker 2: On because that private land to public land ratio is so flipped from like the unit fifteen.
01:06:25
Speaker 3: Example exactly, that's exactly right. There are a few places where there is a public hunting elk opportunity in the secondary management zone because there is you know, some public land there and we can issue a few draw hunts there. But basically two things. One, like you said, there's really not a public private split that allows a good ratio, And the other thing is Game and Fish isn't managing the elkerts out there, and a lot of places out there, it's places that Game and Fish doesn't want elk, So it's kind of a way to help control and regulate that herd without having to manage it so intensely. And then, and any anybody who wants to look at this elk management zones, if you go to the Game and Fish website, you can see the where the primary zone is, where the special management zone is, and then the.
01:07:24
Speaker 1: Rest of the state is secondary management zone.
01:07:27
Speaker 2: But if you're looking for opportunity out there, it might be better to figure out the access before you go figuring out the tag.
01:07:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, you'd want to try to find access on a private ranch where there was definitely some elk come up with that agreement, that access agreement with the landowner. Again, you're be paying a trespass fee basically and then secure your tag.
01:07:52
Speaker 4: I would.
01:07:52
Speaker 2: I would imagine there's probably a couple outfitters out there too.
01:07:55
Speaker 4: Though, right, Oh yeah, thank you.
01:07:57
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, there's there's some outfitters who outfit in the secondary management zone for sure.
01:08:03
Speaker 2: And boy, there's there's so much to cover in the state of New Mexico racks.
01:08:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:08:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just opening up a can of worms here. I would love to talk talk with you about antelope one of these days.
01:08:16
Speaker 4: Yeah.
01:08:16
Speaker 3: Well, I supervised that program when it was a plus and I was there for the transition to over the counter.
01:08:23
Speaker 4: Yeah.
01:08:23
Speaker 2: That that's a fascinating thing thing to me too.
01:08:26
Speaker 1: Yep.
01:08:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've seen the popularity of that animal increase wildly. Oh yeah, as like a real trophy type of species, absolutely, which I think it probably always should have been there in my perspective, but it's it's interesting that that's gotten pretty wild too.
01:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:08:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's it's well needed perspective recks from the state side and the outfitting side, you know, I think even when Jesse was on we did hit the fact that there's that opportunity that exists through the draw through the E plus system, we are still needing to I think there's still a need right to still explore that that equitable opportunity for our our wildlife right and it's our wildlife, whether on the private side or the public side of the fence. And how do we keep landowners vested in in wildlife? How do we and how do we keep our hunters out there vested in wildlife? And then the stewardship of the land that I think goes hand in hand with the pursuit of wild life.
01:10:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I know one of the biggest issues that Wildlife Federation has with this whole program is their interpretation that it's privatizing the wildlife away, you know, a public resource that's been privatized. We could, you know, split hairs a little bit on that and say, you know, in support of the E plus program that it actually does provide an opportunity. It's still producing elk management, it's still a democratic process, it's still generating revenue for the game and fish. It's part of the management program. I mean, we can split hairs on that. I understand where he's coming from. I don't agree with it one hundred percent, but again, this is this is a unique program that's unique to New Mexico. It's unique to New Mexico ELK management, and like I mentioned, if if it goes away, I don't know what we replace it with.
01:11:06
Speaker 2: To be quite honest, Yeah, well, I mean I think we all all know. You know, people made it, so it can't be perfect. Tell you the plenty of room to tinker and improve here. So I think as long as we can keep the folks vested in the wildlife, then we're going to figure out a way to win, versus being more concerned with the people part of it. But Rex, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you reaching out and just giving us some more context and perspective from both the outfitter side of things and from the the former state employee side of things to right and and for everybody listening out there, if you have more questions on this topic, we'll definitely cover them again. Just right into a s K C a L. That's Askcal at the Meat Eater dot com. If you have a question specifically for Rex Martinsen here, please right into the same place. We can always get Rex back on the show, or I can connect with them and get those questions addressed for you. So again, that's ask C A L. That's Askcal at the meeteater dot com, right and let us know what's going on in your neck of the woods. We appreciate it, Rex, anything else, I.
01:12:41
Speaker 1: Think that's it.
01:12:41
Speaker 3: I've probably taken enough time today.
01:12:44
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on Cal. I appreciate it.
01:12:46
Speaker 2: Thank you, and have a great rest of your season.
01:12:49
Speaker 1: Right on you too. Thanks by
Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is Cal's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now here's Cal.
00:00:20
Speaker 2: All right, friends and neighbors, Welcome to another episode of Cal's Week in Review. You know, the the interview sessions B sides. I don't know what we should call these, Phil. We're actually recording from the studio, so Phil's here. I'm not just making mental notes to them that occasionally make it into the podcast. So this episode is a good one. Listen up if you were intrigued, if you wrote in, especially if you wrote in asking for another perspective on New Mexico's E plus program, regarding the interview that we did with Mexico Wildlife Federation's executive director Jesse Dubell and his perspective or lay of the land on New Mexico's E plus program, you got it this episode right now with Rex Martinson. Rex is currently an outfitter in the state of New Mexico, New Mexico resident, and a former officer for New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. So is that most of that right, Rex?
00:01:38
Speaker 3: You're pretty close all the way around.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker 3: I currently work for Love of the Hunt outfitters here in New Mexico. I'm very new to that position work as the general manager. Previously, for the past eight years, supervised New Mexico's E plus system. There was we have an E plus program manager and he's kind of the day to day guy who does all the programming and all the details associated with E Plus. My job was to supervise that program along with our pronghorn program and our open gate access program. So that's where I come from. Previous to that, I was Missouri Department of Conservation employee. Spent about twenty seven almost thirty years there, and then I came out here and took that position as the E Plus and Private Land Programs manager for the State of New Mexico.
00:02:44
Speaker 4: Awesome.
00:02:45
Speaker 2: So this is a wonderfully complicated topic. It's only wonderful if you're kind of a conservation nerd like I am, who you know, has a lot of questions about how these programs get started, what their intent is, how they function, and how they work in the world of you know, managing game. Yeah, you know, I guess responsible wildlife management for folks who are new to this topic and and Rex, I'm gonna dish this off to you as quick as possible. But E plus probably as a definition out there that is not this, but the quick and dirty from from my armchair here is that it is a type of private land public access program. Whereas a land owner in the state of New Mexico who is able to demonstrate, particularly.
00:03:57
Speaker 4: With ELK.
00:03:59
Speaker 2: ELK, the use of that private property by ELK which are managed by the state, that landowner could receive a number of tags or no tags, but we're concentrating on the folks who have tags. Those tags are up for use. However that landowner sees fit so they can give them away or they can sell those tags on the open market.
00:04:33
Speaker 4: To hunters.
00:04:35
Speaker 2: And those hunters those tags are available to New Mexico residents and New Mexico non residents. Now by taking a part in the financial benefit of being able to sell a tag on the open market, that landowner has to agree to to open the gates essentially to their private land to.
00:05:06
Speaker 4: Anyone in that unit.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: With that valid tag. If they are using unit wide tags. There's also private land only tags or ranch only tags. In our circles, ranch only would be an ro tag. A unit wide tag it would be the other one. Unit wide tags would typically go for more money on the open market unless you are hooked up with the ranch that really has lots of awesome habitat, lots of awesome opportunity than those ranch only tags, meaning they're only good for that deeded ground, not the entire unit that that deeded ground resides in. Then that tag can be quite valuable as well. So this is a system that does allow public access to private ground. However, those tags are only good for the people who can afford them.
00:06:25
Speaker 4: Is that yeah? Pretty good?
00:06:28
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:06:28
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's the perception out there. The way you laid it out is probably how a lot of people look at it. Basically, I listened to your podcast with Jesse de Bell.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: And I'm not.
00:06:42
Speaker 3: Here to refute anything. My purpose was basically just to explain the E plus program, what it means to New Mexico, how New Mexico Game and Fish uses this to manage ELK in the state, some of the pros and cons. There's some things that I agree with Jesse that that could be different about E plus, But there's a lot of things that are really good about E plus that I think got glassed over just a little bit. So Uh, I guess with with all that said, I think that one of the main things that people need to realize about the E plus program is.
00:07:20
Speaker 2: Well, actually, if if you wouldn't mind, uh, we'll cover your your bona fides, just real, real briefly by I'll just ask you what what did you do in your position when when you were in charge of this E plus program or you oversaw this E plus program? What what did that job entail?
00:07:47
Speaker 3: It's a big program. Uh, there's a lot of detail uh involved in it. Every year, Uh, there's new ranches that apply for the program.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: So every year we have to review applications.
00:08:00
Speaker 3: We have to go through a scoring process to see if they qualify for the program. We have to map all of the properties in GIS so that we know the boundaries, and as you probably know, all the unit wide properties are now on ONYX, so you can see all the unit wide properties that are available for hunters in the fall. Then we also accept applications for what we call the Habitat Incentive Program, which is a way for landowners to potentially get additional authorizations for habitat work that they do on their private needed acres. So we have to go through all of those. Basically from about February through May is when all this stuff takes place. At the same time Game and Fish and you'll catch me saying we even though I don't work for them anymore.
00:09:02
Speaker 1: But it's still a bit of a habit.
00:09:04
Speaker 3: During that period of time, Game and Fish is making sure all the ranches are entered, all the agreements have come back. Because it's an annual program landowners participate in, so they have to sign an annual agreement if they still want to participate. So we're getting all that information in, We're making sure all the acres are correct. We also have to check and make sure that they if they bought additional acres, those get added to their account because it counts whenever we go through the allocation process if they've sold property or if a ranch.
00:09:40
Speaker 1: Has changed hands.
00:09:41
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of stuff going on in the E plus program to.
00:09:46
Speaker 1: Make it work.
00:09:47
Speaker 3: The actual allocation process, then, in very simple terms, is the push of a button. Once you enter all the values, all the ranches, all the acre values, you run the allocation for each unit. It automatically calculates how many private tags go to each ranch, and so once that allocation process is done, then we have to send out the allocation letters or emails for those that are hooked up for online only, and then those allocations, those authorization numbers then are distributed out to the landowners. Most of them are doing online now, but some still go out by mail. So there's a lot of detail in the mix with this. So I was basically overseeing that program how it worked, making sure everything was done properly and on time. And for such a big program, it was me the program manager, Aaron Roberts, and a clerk that that runs this whole outfit.
00:11:03
Speaker 2: So it's a pretty heavy lift there for for three folks.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: It is a huge lift.
00:11:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know a lot at stake as well as you know, oh yeah yeah, so you know the program thoroughly?
00:11:28
Speaker 1: Yes?
00:11:29
Speaker 2: And and when did because originally, like, has this land owner tag program changed over the years, I would I would assume it has.
00:11:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has, so that there's been several different versions of of E plus. I think that the actual E plus was developed around two thousand and five, which is a pretty close result imblemce of what it is now. Before that they called it something else, I forget what, but two thousand and five is kind of when E plus as we know it came into existence. There were a few tweaks from two thousand and five to twenty eighteen, but the big change came in twenty eighteen, and I was there for that.
00:12:25
Speaker 4: And what was that? What was the big the big change?
00:12:29
Speaker 3: So probably the biggest thing here is before twenty eighteen, there were really no real qualifications for a property to get in the program. It was basically run on a region to region basis. There's four regions management regions in New Mexico. Each region kind of ran eplus how they saw fit, which caused inconsistencies across the state. You had some properties getting in that didn't belong in. You had people getting these habitat incentives with no way to track it or no way to know what was going on. There were no criteria for properties to get in the program, and so in twenty eighteen we adopted the scoring criteria for properties to qualify for the program.
00:13:22
Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest things.
00:13:24
Speaker 3: And in doing that, because it became part of the rule, we had to score all the existing properties and all the new ones coming into the program in twenty eighteen, and as a result, of that game and fish eliminated seven hundred ranches from the E plus program that had no business being in there in the first place. That was one of the bigger things that happened. To another degree, we had how these authorizations were issued, and this is getting into a little bit of the detail of the program we changed.
00:14:07
Speaker 1: I'll try to keep it simple.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: We changed the distribution of those tags so that the small ranches in each unit had a better chance to get an authorization because they typically would sell THEIRS at a higher rate than the big ranches. So this is probably a good time to talk about how the E plus allocation process works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, on the tip of my tongue, because I can see your your wheels turning there, and uh so, here's how the allocation process works for E plus.
00:14:50
Speaker 1: It's simple.
00:14:52
Speaker 3: It's based on simple acre based calculations, and each unit is allotted by rule a certain number of bull tags, archery tags, and cow tags. And I'll use Game Management Unit fifteen for an example, because that entire unit is in the primary management zone and.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: A very popular unit.
00:15:25
Speaker 1: It is a popular unit, so I'm looking at I think these are twenty twenty.
00:15:33
Speaker 3: Three numbers there were nine hundred and twenty three bull tags for GMU fifteen. So what Gaming Fish does is they look at that unit, they calculate the number of public acres that's for service BLM and state trust land for that entire unit. They calculate the number of private aids in that unit, and you get a percentage split.
00:16:04
Speaker 1: You get what we call the public private split.
00:16:07
Speaker 3: So in GMU fifteen, seventy eight percent of the GMU is public land, twenty two percent is private land. So of the nine hundred and twenty three bull tags, seventy eight percent go to the public draw, which equates to seven hundred and twenty permits, and twenty two percent of those permits go to the private site, which is two hundred and three. And then we use the same calculation for either sex archery and cow tax. Okay, so it's based that the public acres. That percentage of acres comprises the percent of tags that will go to the public draw. The other twenty two percent are set aside for private land. And I'm just talking to bulltags right now. So in Unit fifteen, two hundred and three bull tags in twenty twenty three were set aside for the private land side. The private land tags that are issued in rule for each unit are then distributed to the private landowners through the E plus program. So there's the ELK rule that sets season dates, limits number of tags. There's the E plus rule that dictates how we distribute the private land tags. Okay, so how it works is the ranches that are signed up in the E plus program, they get a percentage of the tags based.
00:17:55
Speaker 1: On how many acres they have.
00:17:57
Speaker 3: So for example, and this is just simple example, if there were one hundred bull tags and you were a large landowner in this game management unit, and you had ten percent of the private land, you'd get ten percent.
00:18:12
Speaker 1: Of those bulltags.
00:18:14
Speaker 3: So you'd get out of the hundred bull tags, your acreage would combine enough to get ten of those bulltags, you get ten percent of them. So when the allocation is run, each private ranch is allocated a number of each type of tag bull either sex and cow based on the percentage of land masks that they make up in that game management unit. When you get so each ranch will get an allocation. The smaller the acreage goes, the less of an allocation they get, right yep. Until you get to a certain point where a ranch gets a fraction of a tag. Well, Game and Fish can't issue a fraction of a tag, So at that acreage there's a cutoff, and all the ranches of that acreage are below become what they call a small contributing ranch, and they take the combined acres and grab a percentage of their combined acres.
00:19:24
Speaker 1: So if you've.
00:19:25
Speaker 3: Got one hundred small contributing ranches and their percentage comes out to get fifty tags, those ranches will get They will draw for those fifty tags, so half of those ranches will get one and the other half won't. Gosha bigger ranches, the bigger ranches we call base ranches. They get an allocation every year because they have enough land mass to justify at least one hole authorization.
00:20:02
Speaker 4: And those.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: Right, and then those would still be subject to the tags issued by New Mexico Game and Fish that year. If you know, if surveys changed dramatically from year to.
00:20:20
Speaker 3: Year, yeah, if tag numbers go down. So the elks rule is on a four year cycle, So every four years, the Game and Fish will make a recommendation to the commission to either raise or lower or keep the numbers the same.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: So every four years.
00:20:38
Speaker 3: Those total numbers could change dependent on the unit to how many public tags are available and how many private tags are available.
00:20:53
Speaker 2: And then how is the determination made for a tag being a ranch on only tag or a tag being a unit wide tag.
00:21:04
Speaker 4: So that is.
00:21:05
Speaker 1: Up to the landowner.
00:21:06
Speaker 3: So they have a chance every year, Like I said earlier, it's every year, they have to sign an annual agreement, and during that particular time they can select the ranch only option or the unit wide option, and they can change. They can flip flop from year to year. It doesn't matter, game and fish doesn't matter. It doesn't account for do they get more or less tags if they're ranch only or unit wide. That's just a preference that's afforded to the landowner. If they want to participate in the program, they can keep their branch private by signing up ranch only, or they can sign up unit wide and then open their property up to public access as well.
00:21:54
Speaker 2: Got it, And so that that's one consideration. And then is that price in your experience instead of my outside experience? Is that also a consideration? Is it in fifteen for instance, or just in New Mexico in general? Is it typical that that ro tag is less valuable or is it just a case by case basis.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: Well, I think generally speaking, it's less valuable. It's only valuable on the really large ranches.
00:22:38
Speaker 1: And I think.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: I think Jesse kind of alluded to this in his comments that you know, there are some big ranches out there that have elk all year loan. There are big ranches they have nice elk there. They can count on those elf being there during the hunting season. So those ranches are typically going to go ranch only so they have complete control of who's on the ranch and when they're there. And those ranch only tags on those bigger properties can be very valuable. If you get a smaller ranch only property that's eighty acres two hundred acres, that's not going to be much of a selling point for somebody wanting to hunt elk because they are stuck to those deeded acres for sure.
00:23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine the eighty acre chunk that's going to hold onto elk consistently and long enough to provide that opportunity. Not that they're not out.
00:23:43
Speaker 3: There, but they may be there, but you shoot one time and they're gone.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Yep. Kind of a one and done deal.
00:23:53
Speaker 2: And so as the states concerned, is there a preference for either is there more monetary gain for the state for one tag or another, or is there just a flat fee coming back when these tags are sold.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: It's just based on what tags are sold.
00:24:26
Speaker 3: Game and Fish doesn't care if your ranch only or a unit wide. Really, all Game and Fish cares about is the management of ELK and the part that the private land tag program makes because those each unit's total tag allocation is based on a sustainable harvest right.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: So if we know we.
00:24:51
Speaker 3: Want to keep the population at a certain level or reduce it or whatever, we know we've got to hit a certain number of tags in order to hit that goal. So those private land tags are part of that calculation. It's part of Game and Fish's management program for ELK. It helps us achieve those goals and meet our harvest harvest management objectives for each of those units. But as far as what gets sold, we don't care as much how they sell them or how they use them, as long as as they are using.
00:25:34
Speaker 2: Them to meet that management objective.
00:25:39
Speaker 1: To meet a management objective exactly.
00:25:43
Speaker 2: And so yeah, from I guess from the the the retired Game and Fish perspective. What what's the general feeling on how E plus works.
00:26:00
Speaker 3: Well, it depends on who you ask. I mean, as far from a state agency position, it works great, Okay. It's a way to distribute tags to reach New Mexico Game and Fish's harvest objectives for the state. That the E plus program. I think it's it's worth mentioning that in statute in New Mexico's statute, it says the Director of the Department of Game and Fish shall issue landowner permits for the lawful taking of elk in accordance with regulations.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: Of the State Game Commission.
00:26:43
Speaker 3: So Game and Fish is mandated by statute to have a private land ELK program, and that private land ELK program is the E plus program. If E plus went away, there would still have to be something to replace it because the statute. Unless the statute changes and goes away, Game and Fish is still mandated to issue private land tax Okay, So I think that's important. The other thing that's important about the E plus program is it's really a recognition program for that recognizes the contributions that private landowners in New Mexico make to the overall ELK herd and elk.
00:27:33
Speaker 1: Management in the state. It's a unique program that.
00:27:40
Speaker 3: You know, Jesse pointed out, and others will agree, no other state has a program like this, good or bad or ugly. It's it's it's unique. It's unique to New Mexico. I came in, you know, from the outside. I came from Missouri. Most of the hunting there's private, and I came here and was exposed to this E plus program and I'm like, I kind of had some of the same concerns. I was like, Wow, we're we're giving these landowners elk tags.
00:28:14
Speaker 1: Seems interesting.
00:28:17
Speaker 3: The more I got into it and understood the program, understood the landscape, understood the New Mexico landowners, it made a whole lot more sense to me. I think a lot of people see this as an unfair program because these landowners are getting these authorizations and they're able to sell them, sometimes for a lot of money. But the flip side to that is these landowners have elk on them, maybe not during the hunting season, but the rest of the year they do. They're drinking water, they're tearing up fences, they're grazing on agricultural land, and without out those private private acres out there.
00:29:04
Speaker 1: Kind of propping up New.
00:29:07
Speaker 3: Mexico's elk herd, so to speak, it would be a different story. And this is just a really pretty decent way to recognize New Mexico landowners in the part they play in New Mexico's elk herd and ELK management. So, you know, like I said, I've kind of come full circle. I questioned it to begin with. The more I learned about it, the more it made sense and the impact that it has on the private landowner and these landowners.
00:29:41
Speaker 1: They like ELK. Yeah, they complain about them.
00:29:47
Speaker 3: They'll they'll complain about them tearing up their fences and stuff, But overall they like ELK because they know that it's good for the economy, it's good for the state of New Mexico. If they're in the E plus program, it can be good for them. Very few of these ranchers are getting rich on ELK. Most of them will tell you it doesn't even cover their damage expenses or what the ELK are doing on their property. But they're willing to accept ELK and tolerate ELK on their property if they know they get a little something back through this E plus program. We also have in New Mexico a landowner's taking rule. Most states do have a depredation type rule. Here in New Mexico, if a landowner's experiencing damage, they.
00:30:41
Speaker 1: Can just shoot out.
00:30:45
Speaker 3: And this program I think has helped stave that off. I think it's saved a lot of that depredation stuff because they feel like they are getting recognized at least to some degree through this E plus program.
00:31:00
Speaker 2: Depredation scenario or that's a there's the intent there is, like if you really want to kill them, you have to leave them la A two.
00:31:11
Speaker 4: Is that right?
00:31:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've got to call an officer within twenty four hours. They have to leave them, leave them in place. The game wardens usually have a list of people that will try to, you know, get them at least utilized for the meat.
00:31:29
Speaker 1: But it's kind of a.
00:31:33
Speaker 3: It's an ugly program, yeah, I think for sure. But the thing is in the E plus program, if a landowner is an E plus and they utilize the landowner taking, you know, if they just kill elk, then they're removed from the program for a minimum of three years. So there's an incentive for them to stay in the program and not shoot the elk. So I think it's I think it's good on that regard.
00:32:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not quite a stick and a carrot, but it there's enough of a stick there. I guess to say, like, if this is something you choose to do, make sure that you absolutely that that's kind of your last the last resort type of call.
00:32:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:32:27
Speaker 3: And once they make that determination, then they're out of the E plus program for three years, so they would miss out on that potential benefit as well.
00:32:39
Speaker 4: And then when.
00:32:42
Speaker 2: We look at it, we'll step back from the Okay, I guess we should ask, along with the E plus consideration from your time at the New Mexico game and ish, what was the I guess the public hunter perception of E plus during during your tenure? Well it or have you seen that change?
00:33:15
Speaker 4: I guess I haven't.
00:33:17
Speaker 3: Seen a lot of change in the public perception. The public hunters here in New Mexico. They know this program exists. Not many people complain directly to me about it. They know what's out there, they know why it's out there. They they realize that their draw odds for the public draw are challenging sometimes. But nobody really blamed the E plus program for that or let me just say, a very few percentage of the public hunters that I tell up to, we're really ripping on the E plus program.
00:34:05
Speaker 2: And then from the outfitter perspective, which which is the the gig you're in now, how does the E plus work from the from the outfitter side of things, the business side, nonag business.
00:34:21
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, it's a big part. It's a big part of the the outfitters business here in New Mexico. And again, this is kind of where we get into the money issue.
00:34:34
Speaker 1: And I know.
00:34:34
Speaker 3: That that sticks in a lot of people's crawl.
00:34:37
Speaker 1: You know that.
00:34:40
Speaker 3: These landowner tags do go for a lot of money, and most of them, in fact, do go to non residents, and a good portion of those go through the outfitter business.
00:34:52
Speaker 2: So, and would you mind explaining? So, yeah, was that two thousand part of the change in twenty eighteen, the outfitter preference part of that application? No, that that's been that was two thousand and five, that's been a long time. That well, the whole uh you're talking about the eighty four uh ten percent and six percent split in.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Public draw tags, I'm I must be.
00:35:27
Speaker 3: So that's a different rule, and that's been an effect for quite quite a while. I don't know where. Eighty eighty four percent of the public draw techs go to residents, ten percent go to the outfitted hunters, and six percent go to non residents.
00:35:45
Speaker 4: Right, so yeah, so.
00:35:49
Speaker 2: You but as a non resident applicant, would be increasing your odds by by going with a with an outfitter.
00:35:57
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, that is correct, but those that split that eighty four to ten to six split applies only to draw tags. It does not apply to E plus authorizations. Once that authorization is issued to a landowner, they can use it themselves. They can give it away, they can sell it, they can trade for it whatever.
00:36:24
Speaker 1: They want to do.
00:36:25
Speaker 3: And there's no restriction on resident or non resident.
00:36:29
Speaker 1: Who who they can sell it to or give it to.
00:36:32
Speaker 2: So is the fee on that New Mexico the state of New Mexico gets for that authorization, right because it doesn't become a tag until.
00:36:45
Speaker 1: It's got to be converted to a tag.
00:36:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, it gets paid for right, yes?
00:36:49
Speaker 1: Correct?
00:36:50
Speaker 2: Does that fee change between resident and non resident? Well from the if it's a landowner tag.
00:36:57
Speaker 3: Yes, so, Whoever, if you're a resident, you the resident fee if you're a non resident, you pay the non resident fee for that authorization, and.
00:37:06
Speaker 4: Do those fees.
00:37:09
Speaker 2: Pay for the e plus work being done by the state. It doesn't seem like it from the program that you laid out, but.
00:37:21
Speaker 3: You know, New Mexico is a state that gets all of its revenue from permit sales and federal excise reimbursements. We don't have a set aside sales tax or any other revenue generator, so it's all permit license driven and then the cost share from federal federal programs.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Did you feel like from going from a state like Missouri that is generally seen as flush with cash from a wildlife agency perspective, going from because they have a dedicated sales tax, correct, did you feel like when you made the jump to New Mexico game and fish that you weren't working with the amount of resources you had on the Missouri side of the line.
00:38:10
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:38:10
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah. Missouri's got almost two thousand full time employees. New Mexico has right around three hundred full time My gosh, So yeah, it was quite It was a little bit of culture shock going from there and coming to here. I really enjoyed it.
00:38:31
Speaker 1: It was it was fun.
00:38:32
Speaker 3: I enjoyed the whole time the last eight years, but it was definitely an eye opener that you know, you have a state, what New Mexico's like the ninth or fifth biggest state in the nation, and it's probably got one of the smaller game and fish, you know, personnel wise in the.
00:38:51
Speaker 2: Nation, which kind of I mean kind of just that math puts a lot to own us on the on the landowner in a lot of that state.
00:39:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:39:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's uh, it's day and night from Missouri to New Mexico for sure.
00:39:19
Speaker 2: And so then you know, from my experience, you know, the biggest incentive for an outfitter for to be a proponent of these transferable tags is the fact that you can guarantee of booking, so you're you're not reliant on the application process. You're not going to take a deposit from a group of guys that may or may not come hunt with you that year. It adds some uncertainty and some hoops. Whereas that tags that you can pull out of the hat when folks make that deposit and set those aside. Is it a lot safer on the business end of things?
00:40:10
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:40:10
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, when you put these and every outfitter does this the same way. I'm sure you will put in as many people as you can in the draw under your outfitter number, and then a certain percentage of those people will draw attack everybody else is either going to try to purchase a landowner tag or they'll just wait till next year to try to draw again. And this is where the money comes in. You know, there are a lot of wealthy non resident landowners, and there are wealthy New Mexico landowners as well, but the vast majority of folks that buy these landowner tags are non residents.
00:40:57
Speaker 1: Because it is so much harder for them to draw here.
00:41:01
Speaker 3: And those folks, I don't know where they get their money, but they got plenty of it and they don't mind spending it, but they'll put down a deposit. They'll put on a seven eight thousand dollars deposit on a landowner tag. And we have certain landowners we work with every year, so we kind of have.
00:41:19
Speaker 1: An idea how many we.
00:41:20
Speaker 3: Can book guaranteed hunts, and then we pick up a few extras every year when the list comes out, uh, and then those are those are guaranteed, Those those hunts we can book. They they know what they're getting into. They pay the landowner fee for the authorization they buy, use that authorization to buy their out of state hunting license and ELK license, and then they pay the outfitter fee for food.
00:41:49
Speaker 1: And lodging and a guide and those.
00:41:53
Speaker 3: It's very important for the outfitting business here in New Mexico to have this landowner program.
00:42:00
Speaker 4: Yep.
00:42:00
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I'd be like going down to the tire shop and hoping they get some tires in that day, right, yeah.
00:42:10
Speaker 3: And then the meantime you're sitting there with four flats.
00:42:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think every everybody can understand that. So where do we, you know, get this this consternation from you?
00:42:26
Speaker 4: You know?
00:42:27
Speaker 2: I I wish I was a little bit better with math Rex because like when we start dividing up these buckets of tags and then and running the percentages there, like where.
00:42:45
Speaker 4: The that.
00:42:48
Speaker 2: Resident non resident allotment? I know, I hear a lot of gripe consternation from folks in the state of New Mexico. Are they are? Is the the resident New Mexico hunter, you know, getting that fair allotment of tags at least a fair shot in the draw, I.
00:43:15
Speaker 1: Mean overall, yes, I think so.
00:43:20
Speaker 3: They If you want to hunt elk in New Mexico on a regular basis, when you put in for the draw, you get three choices right.
00:43:34
Speaker 1: On where, what unit you want to hunt in, and what dates.
00:43:40
Speaker 3: You have people who gripe about not getting drawn, And they every year they're putting in three choices for the heel of wilderness.
00:43:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, like first, second, first season, second season, third season. Yeah, that's the prime spot exactly.
00:43:58
Speaker 3: And and they're just shooting themselves in the foot if they if they really wanted to hunt elk and put meat in the freezer, they'd make a reasonable first choice for a bull hunt or an archery hunt, and then their other two choices they would set aside for cow hunts. And I can guarantee you they'd be hunting every other year in New Mexico.
00:44:23
Speaker 2: And and then they're hunting elk every other year in New Mexico. Somehow, some way, may not be the may not be the the uh the big.
00:44:36
Speaker 3: Right exactly, because they're gonna they're gonna make their first choice a bull hunt, whether that's an archery hunt or you know, early October hunt. You know, roll the dice try to get that bull hunt their other two choices, or their last choice. They could make a second choice a bull hunt somewhere and make their third choice of cow hunting Unit thirty four, Unit thirty six, where there's a lot of cowtegs and you're gonna hit those cow draws. You might get lucky and hit your first draw for bull or a second draw for bull, but your odds are going to go way up on a cow hunt.
00:45:09
Speaker 4: Yep, yep.
00:45:11
Speaker 1: So there's opportunity there.
00:45:12
Speaker 3: And the other thing I think too that yes, these the archery tags and the rifle bull tags and the E plus system, those authorization numbers for those hunts are pretty pricey. But your cow hunts, you can get a cow hunt for plus or minus one thousand dollars. Now for some people that may sound like a lot, but if you save fifty bucks one hundred bucks throughout the year, you can be hunting a cow elk every year on landowner tag.
00:45:46
Speaker 1: Sure.
00:45:48
Speaker 2: The yeah, the the economics of your weekly beer there you go.
00:45:53
Speaker 4: You know you're going to talk about that a lot.
00:45:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, But you know, on the flip side, you know that that's very much like a cultural thing too, to where It's like even if you have the money, you know, Montana kid growing up who's always had over the counter tags, you just you know, it's like that would be a very foreign thing to pay a thousand bucks for a cow, right, Yeah, for sure. And that's I think what we run up against here is like a culture shock of of Also, you know when we talk about those bulls.
00:46:39
Speaker 4: Is it.
00:46:41
Speaker 2: Are we at a place in hunting where not everyone deserves a crack at a bowl at you know, on a reasonable timescale, right? Are we migrating towards like, well, those bulls are going to be mostly an opportunity for folks that can afford that. And if you if you're not going to fork over big cash, you better get real lucky in the draw. And you know, I think that's a cultural thing too.
00:47:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the concern. I heard Jesse say that.
00:47:22
Speaker 3: Hunting elk in New Mexico is becoming a rich man's sport and a rich man's opportunity.
00:47:29
Speaker 1: That's that.
00:47:29
Speaker 3: I think that's a little extreme to look at it, because there's still a lot of New Mexico residents who hunt bulls every year, or you know, not individually every year.
00:47:40
Speaker 1: But eighty four.
00:47:41
Speaker 3: Percent of all those drawbacks go to New Mexico residents and they're hunting, you know, whatever they get. So there's still definitely an opportunity here for people to hunt elk. Again, I can't argue the fact that these private land authorizations gosh on the low end for a bull hunt.
00:48:06
Speaker 1: If you can get a bull hunt.
00:48:08
Speaker 3: Or an archery tag for six thousand dollars, yeah, better jump on it.
00:48:14
Speaker 4: Really.
00:48:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, way back when the cribs, I can't even tell you, probably two thousand seven ish right in there, I got a run down and guide in New Mexico, and the folks I had that I was guiding it purchased tags for I want to say, like twenty three hundred bucks apiece. And yeah, you know that was like there was certainly big money to me at that point, right, oh yeah, yeah.
00:48:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of it's kind of wild and and I have noticed in the eight years since I've been here that prices has grown quite a little bit. I know a friend of mine when I first came here, he purchased a private land tag I think for three thousand dollars. It was for a rifle bull hunt, and a decent unit, not a trophy unit, but a good unit. Him and his buddy bought two for three thousand bucks apiece, and now in that same unit, it's it's probably doubled. You're looking at five to six thousand. Just to crack the door, you know.
00:49:38
Speaker 2: And when we first started here, Rex, you know, we brought up Jesse Dubell, and you know, he's a passionate guy, and and you know, I think very passionate about the state of New Mexico in general. But you said that, you know there that you had you could share a few criticisms of the E plus program yourself. What would some of those be? Like, Like, we kind of had an offline conversation just to let you know what what I I being the pragmatist. Typically, when there's enough money involved, we don't see those programs go away. I know there's a fear from some groups and some landowners that E plus could totally go away. You know, I'd be shocked if that ever happened. I think there'd be so much litigation and all the stuff that typically goes with something like that. That probably isn't going to happen. But you know, I think just as we've talked about on this show so far. You know, this program has changed over the years, and you've been there to see some of that change.
00:50:54
Speaker 4: I think.
00:50:56
Speaker 2: The reform of the program would be something that is likely. We could see that. But what would would some of those those points be from from your perspective?
00:51:10
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. I think the thing that I.
00:51:16
Speaker 3: Do agree with Jesse is these tags are worth a lot of money, and I don't know what to do about that. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it unless somehow Game and Fish can control.
00:51:34
Speaker 1: You know, the price index. But how do you do that?
00:51:36
Speaker 3: Once you issue that authorization, it goes to the landowner, and that's part of the problem. I don't like the fact that and they Jessee and his crew use this a lot. The buy your way to the front of the line. I kind of don't like that either, but it's it's just a fact of how the system works right now.
00:52:02
Speaker 1: And honestly, I don't know if so.
00:52:07
Speaker 3: What the Wildlife Federation would like is for the Commission to open the E plus.
00:52:14
Speaker 1: Rule and rewrite it.
00:52:17
Speaker 3: But the problem is nobody's come up with what that rewrite would look like. Because you can't take all those private land tags and dump them into the public draw those and then the ranches have no incentive.
00:52:36
Speaker 1: To open up their property.
00:52:38
Speaker 3: The big ranches that we talked about earlier, they may still be able to make it because they're going to have elk. They're still going to have. You know, they can charge a trespass fee or whatever. But the same people, the same New Mexico residents who draw those extra tags, can't afford the trespass fee to go on that ranch and hunt their elk. So where are they going to go. They're going to go on the public land, which is going to include over crowding on public land and just a less quality experience for the hunters. Game and Fish would have to totally revamp the management program for elk if the E plus program went away, and I have no idea what that would look like, but it would be quite different than what a lot of people would expect.
00:53:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, it's kind of two sides of the same coin, whatever analogy you want to use here, because from my perspective, we need to keep hunting accessible for sure hunters. I think there's a lot of benefits to that that folks may not consider right, like having hunters out there on the landscape, the way hunters move across a landscape. And you know, obviously I'm talking about like responsible individuals who who care, who are stewards of the land and stewards of wildlife. Like it's good to have those those folks out there keeping an eye on things and standing up for those those big chunks of public you know, be a State for a service BLM, Bureau of Wreck all the different things out there, right, And just as much as you've pointed out, like we need those folks on the private side of the fence to be invested in habitat as well.
00:54:52
Speaker 1: Yes, right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:54:54
Speaker 3: And I want to point out one thing that I did disagree with with what Jesse had to say. The unit wide properties. I don't remember the exact number. It's just under a million acres of unit wide property that is now open for public elk.
00:55:16
Speaker 1: Hunters to utilize.
00:55:19
Speaker 3: And it is true that not all of those unit wide acres are good during the hunting season, but there's a bunch of it that is I've hunted on it, I've seen elk on it, I know people who have hunted and killed elk on unit wide properties, So there's that benefit in and of itself. The other thing that these unit wide properties do is provide a lot of access through the private into the public, which, as you know and many many Western hunters know that that's sometimes invaluable to be able to cut through a private piece to get back into what would normally be landlocked federal land. Now through the e plus system, with the unit wide properties, you've got all kinds of access points. You've got in holdings in the National Forest that used to you'd hear an elk bugle on across the canyon and you'd have to go eight miles around this private property to get over there. Now if they're in the unit wide program.
00:56:23
Speaker 1: You can just go straight through it.
00:56:24
Speaker 3: And like I said, all those properties are on Onyx, so you can see them right there, and it's been really great. The other thing that I think is important to point out. I touched on it earlier, but we didn't really get to talk about it, and that is the Habitat and centive program that's inn e plus.
00:56:48
Speaker 1: The Game and.
00:56:49
Speaker 3: Fish process is about two one hundred to two hundred and fifty habitat projects that are going on the ground for elk, specifically for elk.
00:57:00
Speaker 1: Some of those projects are huge.
00:57:02
Speaker 3: There's a lot of uh, you know, thinning out pinion juniper to open up more grasslands. There's water projects that are going into areas that are benefiting elk that the elk wouldn't normally be using that area if it weren't for this habitat project.
00:57:19
Speaker 1: And now there's water there.
00:57:22
Speaker 3: They can get recognition for deferring cattle grazing. So if some of these ranches are converting from hunting or from cattle ranches to hunting ranches, so if they take the cattle off that that can be a habitat and center of improvement.
00:57:40
Speaker 1: UH.
00:57:41
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of great things that are going on UH because of the E plus program. This Habitat and Center program is doing wonderful work on the ground UH for New Mexico's elk, elk herds, and elk management UH and even the ranches that are in the program, there is an incentive there for them to keep their ranch in good shape and keep elk.
00:58:04
Speaker 1: On it or around it.
00:58:06
Speaker 3: And like I said earlier, it's definitely a way to recognize the importance of the private landowner in New Mexico for elk management in the state.
00:58:21
Speaker 1: The other thing that.
00:58:22
Speaker 3: I kind of hate to hear over and over again is comparisons of New Mexico to other states. I'm here to tell you there's no other state like New Mexico, even as far as elk management, elk herds, where these elk occur, where they don't occur, right down to the traditional landowners who live here, the way the land is in many cases parceled out on deeds. There's still some great, big ranches, cattle ranches, and then there's a lot of historical ranches that have been parceled out into smaller pieces that are also very important for elk management. And a lot of people just don't understand the complexity of the human element and the elk management element in the state of New Mexico. It's very hard to compare New Mexico to any other state.
00:59:25
Speaker 4: Oh.
00:59:28
Speaker 2: I used to compare elk in New Mexico to Herford bulls. I mean, he gets wide bodied bulls down there that are just oh yeah, yeah, the great I mean the feed down there must be very special.
00:59:44
Speaker 3: Oh well, in certain places there there there's definitely some special places that produce these big, big bodied, big antler bulls.
00:59:54
Speaker 1: It's a special place, that's for sure. Yeah.
00:59:56
Speaker 2: Oh, I agree, land of enchantment, It's true.
01:00:01
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, I think where you know, the.
01:00:07
Speaker 2: The public land hunter, private land owner. One place that I think, looking towards the future, that we should really get together on would be improving feed on the public side of the fence, right like working on noxious weeds in these areas, with with grazing allotments, active grazing allotments, and you know, I think the habitat improvement on the private side of the fence is awesome. I do like to point out that that also benefits raising cattle on the private side of the fans, which you know, I have no problem with. But I don't h I think it'd be disingenuous to say we're we're only doing this for the elk, because it makes makes the place prettier, the kids want to stick around, and and makes makes the cat.
01:01:15
Speaker 4: A little fatter too, for sure.
01:01:18
Speaker 2: But I you know, I think the yeah, the the juniper removal, the effects that has on the water table, the resistance to fire. Sustainable grazing is something that that we'd like to see more and more on you know, on these Forest Service grounds b l M grounds. And I think one way the public hunter could help incentivize the landowner relationship is the is the fact that we know that there is good sustainable grazing practices that that can happen on public land that still provide great hunting opportunity.
01:02:14
Speaker 1: You know.
01:02:14
Speaker 2: The thing that gets thrown against the folks with grazing allotments is like, oh, yeah, by the time the hunting season rolls around, there's no feed up there and the elk don't want to be up there because it's been been over grazed like that. That can happen, you know, as there's bad hunters out there, just like there's bad cattle operators out.
01:02:37
Speaker 4: There too, right for sure. Yeah, but.
01:02:44
Speaker 2: I think there's there's plenty of working across the fence on on those types of issues there, and and we could increase that that public hunting opportunity by working on projects like that.
01:03:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:03:01
Speaker 3: I agree, there's a lot of state and federal land out there that's somewhat neglected, and I get it.
01:03:09
Speaker 1: You know, when you're dealing.
01:03:10
Speaker 3: With that much land mass, it takes a mass amount of money as well to implement those types of programs. So, but any little thing that that these federal land management agencies can do to you know, promote the wildlife that lived there and the public hunting and public use that takes.
01:03:31
Speaker 1: Place there, it's it's only going to be a plus.
01:03:34
Speaker 3: And and you know, just like the private land owner that's improving his land for cattle that benefit elk, the federal agencies will be doing projects that benefit wildlife that will also benefit the cattle that graze on those allotments as well. So it's you know, it's just the flip side of the same coin, basically.
01:03:57
Speaker 2: And everything looks better on the other side of the fence.
01:04:00
Speaker 3: We know that well for sure. Yeah, the grass is always greener there. Most of what I've talked about is what we call our primary management zone. That's where the E plus allocation system rests. That's where license numbers are set by the Commission and the distribution attacks is very strictly regulated. That's the primary management zone, the special Management zone, and Jesse de Bell talked about this.
01:04:26
Speaker 1: A little bit.
01:04:27
Speaker 3: That zone is basically two units. It's Unit fifty five A and Unit fifty four and those units are largely private only, but they're also in a location where Game and Fish still wants to have some control over the management.
01:04:46
Speaker 1: There, and the.
01:04:49
Speaker 3: Allocation attacks in the Special Management Zone are a negotiation between Game and Fish and the landowner. So if something were to happen in the future where elk numbers went down and Game and Fish said, hey, we need control over these these two particular units, Game and Fish still reserves the authority to issue less authorizations to those ranches, so it's not just free for all, and they are ranch only allocations there. There's there's no unit wide option in the Special Management Zone. The Secondary Management Zone is basically the rest of the state.
01:05:34
Speaker 1: Uh, there are elk out there.
01:05:37
Speaker 3: But they and and in some of those places there's quite a few elk, and there's the there's really good elk. But Game and Fish is not concentrated on herd management in the Secondary Management Zone, and those licenses are available over the counter.
01:05:55
Speaker 1: So in essence, the landowner is.
01:05:59
Speaker 3: Issuing access because I can go You could go buy an ELK tag in the Secondary Management Zone right now and put that in our pocket, but it would be useless unless we had private land with permission to go.
01:06:17
Speaker 2: On because that private land to public land ratio is so flipped from like the unit fifteen.
01:06:25
Speaker 3: Example exactly, that's exactly right. There are a few places where there is a public hunting elk opportunity in the secondary management zone because there is you know, some public land there and we can issue a few draw hunts there. But basically two things. One, like you said, there's really not a public private split that allows a good ratio, And the other thing is Game and Fish isn't managing the elkerts out there, and a lot of places out there, it's places that Game and Fish doesn't want elk, So it's kind of a way to help control and regulate that herd without having to manage it so intensely. And then, and any anybody who wants to look at this elk management zones, if you go to the Game and Fish website, you can see the where the primary zone is, where the special management zone is, and then the.
01:07:24
Speaker 1: Rest of the state is secondary management zone.
01:07:27
Speaker 2: But if you're looking for opportunity out there, it might be better to figure out the access before you go figuring out the tag.
01:07:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, you'd want to try to find access on a private ranch where there was definitely some elk come up with that agreement, that access agreement with the landowner. Again, you're be paying a trespass fee basically and then secure your tag.
01:07:52
Speaker 4: I would.
01:07:52
Speaker 2: I would imagine there's probably a couple outfitters out there too.
01:07:55
Speaker 4: Though, right, Oh yeah, thank you.
01:07:57
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, there's there's some outfitters who outfit in the secondary management zone for sure.
01:08:03
Speaker 2: And boy, there's there's so much to cover in the state of New Mexico racks.
01:08:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:08:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just opening up a can of worms here. I would love to talk talk with you about antelope one of these days.
01:08:16
Speaker 4: Yeah.
01:08:16
Speaker 3: Well, I supervised that program when it was a plus and I was there for the transition to over the counter.
01:08:23
Speaker 4: Yeah.
01:08:23
Speaker 2: That that's a fascinating thing thing to me too.
01:08:26
Speaker 1: Yep.
01:08:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've seen the popularity of that animal increase wildly. Oh yeah, as like a real trophy type of species, absolutely, which I think it probably always should have been there in my perspective, but it's it's interesting that that's gotten pretty wild too.
01:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:08:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's it's well needed perspective recks from the state side and the outfitting side, you know, I think even when Jesse was on we did hit the fact that there's that opportunity that exists through the draw through the E plus system, we are still needing to I think there's still a need right to still explore that that equitable opportunity for our our wildlife right and it's our wildlife, whether on the private side or the public side of the fence. And how do we keep landowners vested in in wildlife? How do we and how do we keep our hunters out there vested in wildlife? And then the stewardship of the land that I think goes hand in hand with the pursuit of wild life.
01:10:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I know one of the biggest issues that Wildlife Federation has with this whole program is their interpretation that it's privatizing the wildlife away, you know, a public resource that's been privatized. We could, you know, split hairs a little bit on that and say, you know, in support of the E plus program that it actually does provide an opportunity. It's still producing elk management, it's still a democratic process, it's still generating revenue for the game and fish. It's part of the management program. I mean, we can split hairs on that. I understand where he's coming from. I don't agree with it one hundred percent, but again, this is this is a unique program that's unique to New Mexico. It's unique to New Mexico ELK management, and like I mentioned, if if it goes away, I don't know what we replace it with.
01:11:06
Speaker 2: To be quite honest, Yeah, well, I mean I think we all all know. You know, people made it, so it can't be perfect. Tell you the plenty of room to tinker and improve here. So I think as long as we can keep the folks vested in the wildlife, then we're going to figure out a way to win, versus being more concerned with the people part of it. But Rex, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you reaching out and just giving us some more context and perspective from both the outfitter side of things and from the the former state employee side of things to right and and for everybody listening out there, if you have more questions on this topic, we'll definitely cover them again. Just right into a s K C a L. That's Askcal at the Meat Eater dot com. If you have a question specifically for Rex Martinsen here, please right into the same place. We can always get Rex back on the show, or I can connect with them and get those questions addressed for you. So again, that's ask C A L. That's Askcal at the meeteater dot com, right and let us know what's going on in your neck of the woods. We appreciate it, Rex, anything else, I.
01:12:41
Speaker 1: Think that's it.
01:12:41
Speaker 3: I've probably taken enough time today.
01:12:44
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on Cal. I appreciate it.
01:12:46
Speaker 2: Thank you, and have a great rest of your season.
01:12:49
Speaker 1: Right on you too. Thanks by
