speaker-0: The way that I personally experience being in a new place. There's always this moment. Typically happens frequently in in in the same trip where I feel like so big and so small at the same time. It feels very spiritual. It feels very sacred of like, ⁓ my God, in this moment in time, I'm just a no nobody in a strange land. And I might not even understand the language. And it makes me feel both the like the finiteness of human life, the fleetingness of our human experience, and also the grandiosity that I can experience all of this diversity within a lifetime. You know? So it feels like a very encompassing spiritual experience. Whether you take it at the at the extreme of like you going, like hopping continents, or you're like in front of your altar meditating and trying to unlock something. Like it feels resonant. On both ends.
speaker-1: After getting a few interviews under my belt for Meander and Muse, I thought to myself, I really want to interview someone outside of my close circle of friends. Someone that I know would be perfect for this. Who could that be? Hmm. Literally later that day, I was walking into Red Rocks for the premiere of Andrea Gibson's new film. I got to security, looked over, and there was Mace. The last time I saw her, we were on set for PBS's humanized series, and afterwards we did that thing that a lot of us do and said, hey, we should grab coffee sometime. Every time I reached out, Maze seemed to be somewhere else, out of the state, out of the country, off on another adventure. A kindred spirit for sure. So there we were at Red Rocks and basically on the spot I just said, wanna be on my podcast? She said, Yeah, for sure. And then we walked inside, went our separate ways, and experienced this magical evening of poetry, film, music, amazing people. in so much awe. Which it turns out is a pretty perfect place for this conversation to begin. Maze and I end up talking about the places that wake something up inside us, what it means to surrender to the unknown, where we find home, and how travel can teach us to notice the extraordinary in the everyday. And yes, we'll be definitely coming back to that night at Red Rocks. But first Let's get on a little travel adventure with Maze Al Nima.
speaker-0: Standing in at Hamra in Granada for the first time, being in the middle of the structure of the one of the many structures in the palace and looking at the walls and being able to read them. So for the listeners, I'm primarily an Arabic speaker. Arabic is my first language. And s southern Spain was the first destination I chose for my first ever ⁓ solo trip because Southern Spain felt like a place that spoke to my soul. You know, depending on the levels of like your woo-woo, I think a part of me definitely believes that I was incarnated in southern Spain in a past life. And the other, maybe more logical side, you know, I grew up reading about ⁓ El Endalus and like Southern Spain and have a very complicated relationship with it as, you know, someone who doesn't believe in colonization and is very anti-colonial. And also as someone who was displaced from my homeland by colonization when I was a child. But then there was this other layer to it that like this was a space that was uniquely designed very similarly to where I used to live as a child and held so much of the same history, despite how complicated that is, right? But I could, you know, I had all of there were all of these tour guides and groups like around me. chatting with each other and trying to translate to Portuguese, to like sp like Spanish or English of like what the walls say. And I was just on my own, just staring at it, reading the writing and just like sobbing. It's such a
speaker-1: Special place.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. It's beautiful. Like I there are no words.
speaker-1: Was there one thing that you read that you were just like, ⁓ my God, I was meant to read this today?
speaker-0: That's a good question. A lot of a lot of it is like poetry lines from different poets, but the sentence that you would find in like mult on multiple walls, ⁓ it reads, Wada Ghaliba illallah. It's a verse from Qur'an and it basically roughly translates to no one is above God. And I I think to me it was just kind of this moment of reflecting on like the cyclical nature of life. Truly no one is above the universe or the divine or any or even history, right? Like very sacred piece of land belonged to so many different people at different times. And here we are at yet at a different iteration of that. And who knows where it's gonna be in a hundred years. And so it was like just kind of a moment of like time is above us all and We can't control it. We all we can do is witness it.
speaker-1: Mm, that's so beautiful. And be in the present with it as it moves along.
speaker-0: What I know of El Endolus is really through more of a Arabic poetry lens, you know. I've studied some of its history, but really my fascination with it was through the Arab poets who lived in southern Spain at the time, where Arabs kind of like took over parts of Spain and Portugal. And In the Spanish kind of way of like retelling the things they called ⁓ the Arabs ⁓ the Moors and like Moors architecture, I think there is something so special about southern Spain that it feels like after all of these years, its people and its spirit found a way to hold everyone. It to hold everything. with such grace and integrity that I don't think we see in the world anymore. And you could see that in Granada to some extent to some extent and Alhambra specifically, by like how it's maintained, right? Like it's a piece of art. Like the palace is a piece of art that, you know, I went at like 7 a.m. and like people are already there, like working on the on in the garden, like shaping it up and making sure everything is good. And, you know, there is that kind of care that's poured into it, not as a structure that like quote unquote the invaders built, but like as a structure that deserves to be celebrated because it's so beautiful and so architecturally thoughtful. And the palace even seeing it from outside From across there there are some neighborhoods that you can walk around in Granada and you can witness Al Alhamra like just kind of reflecting the light of the sun. And it's just magical. She's unavoidable. Like she's everywhere.
speaker-1: So romantic. It's like wildly romantic. You walk in and like you said, there's this moment of awe. I feel like everyone goes very quiet for a moment.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, like there's energy that feels sacred in it. And I think probably the place that I've seen like actually physically represented is in Córdoba, too, in the Mesquita that used to be ⁓ a synagogue and then was a church and then was a mosque and then was a church again it that just again the cycle of time just kind of came across that same structure, but people didn't even think of destroying it, right? They just like re repurposed it in a way, you know. And there's also this intense sacred spiritual energy in it, because somehow people who live there are able to like live in such harmony with the structure, with the place, with each other, ⁓ without that animosity, right, of of history that could so you could so easily slip into.
speaker-1: It's the convergence of all these different cultures coming together and making it work.
speaker-0: Mm. Exactly.
speaker-1: I did live in Spain and you know, when people ask me where should we go, that's such a hard question to answer because it's a whole country with so many different regions that are all very different. And I also often say go to Granada.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think it that's like such a good point. ⁓ I think it is more about like you the personal connection and and like what you want to make out of it. I am realizing that more and more in my life as I grow older too. It's like travel is incr it's an incredible experience almost no matter where you go, if you have a specific mindset with it, right? Of like I'm going to do this intentionally. With like presence and witnessing and like learning from indigenous people. And also, I think like the most powerful experiences that that I personally have had have happened in places that I had some sort of personal connection with. That's why Alhambra is like so special, because in some kind of like old memory in my body, I had like this connection to this place. And I grew up in Damascus and the people who built Alhamra are the same people who built old Damascus, right? And so like there is that like echoing from my past and to that present moment for me that I still carry into my future. Like I talk about Alhamra all the time and I talk about going to live in Granada for a few months all the time.
speaker-1: Yes, in one of the cave houses.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my God. Yeah. There there are like a couple of like ⁓ overlooks in Granada that you can like see Alhambra from and I was at one of them on my own and just like looking at her during sunset and like the colors started playing on the buildings and you know then as the sun goes down they turn the lights on, right? And so like you can see the gradual ⁓ journey ⁓ of of the building like into the night and this guy next to me I think he was from the I think he was from the Netherlands and he was like you've been here for a really long time and I was like yeah so have you like point being and and we got to talking and he was like well I heard that there's this other overlook that's like a little bit of a hike That you could see gr you could see Alhambra from like a different from a different angle and I'm planning to go tomorrow. Do you want to come? And I was like, fuck yeah, I wanna come. and like I I you know, it's kind of experiences like this. I don't remember even the guy's name anymore. It's been years, but it was like a really cool experience to, you know, go the next day and go on this little hike and discover like something that I probably wouldn't have found on my own and just spend half an afternoon with a stranger in a strange land, like admiring this structure together. Like, you know, it's just such a tactile and like affective experience that has nothing to do with the brain. Like it even feels silly to say it out loud and say like, ⁓ it was a profound experience, but it was
speaker-1: Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the reasons I'm doing this, because I feel like almost always there's somebody that's like, Hey, what are you doing? Do you you want to go do this? Or and it's not weird or gross or they want something. It's more to experience something together. And what I love about that story too is that it's almost granted you feel something like this almost like ancient part of yourself wake up. In that region, I have a place that also I'm like, I am not Greek, but there's this spot that every time I'm there, I'm like, I've been here way long time ago. Like, I don't know. So I feel like when your soul kind of opens up or whatever happens.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: that also you can meet other kindred spirits who are also feeling that.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. I I think there's two folds that I'm thinking about in reflection, ⁓ as I listen to you. There's one piece about this ⁓ like spiritual connection to a place that we might never fully understand. Like depending on your like value system and your belief system, I genuinely believe that there is like that we're we were all one. And then we were all divided into these like human beings life, right? And so parts of us could have had an experience in a totally different part of the world. I have a a a renewed belief every day that I was a river in a different lifetime. You know, like however you want to like ⁓ you know, make sense of the world or like these like very felt experiences that we sometimes have in our bodies and being like, What the heck? Like, why am I feeling this way? Why is this place resonating so much? Why does a river resonate so much with me? I don't know, maybe I was one in a different lifetime. Like could be. You know, what it the possibilities are kind of endless, right?
speaker-1: I agree with you one hundred percent. And this is actually a good segue to something I was thinking because I was a producer for Humanize for PBS and you know, that was the second time I got to spend some time with you is and be there in the studio for the interview was about the tree in the grandmother in your grandmother's backyard. And as a kid and being a tomboy because I swear my first best friend was a tree. It was a tree in the backyard that I would go climb every day. And sometimes I think that must sound so strange, but I don't think so.
speaker-0: No. No, I don't think so at all.
speaker-1: My friends are like, Are you hugging a tree? And I'm like, I it makes me feel good too. Like
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the n that's the natural way of things, but we forgot it. Like I you know, I I know this is not not a woo-woo podcast, but I think it's it's sad if that we don't think that we're a part of nature and we're one with it. And like I think the natural way of living or a more aligned maybe a more aligned way of living is to be in relationship with
speaker-1: It can be.
speaker-0: the rivers with the trees, with the earth, with all of these different kin that like they're kin. We do we have like developing relationships with them is very healthy. But then like our modern life took us in a very different direction. And now it's like quote unquote woo-woo to like hug a tree or like let flow on a river and like feel an emotional connection or a spiritual connection where I think actually that's their origin. Like that's actually Where we feel most at home.
speaker-1: One hundred percent. Especially in the United States or in the West. It's like this is how this works and it's like actually maybe not.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I I am definitely on a journey, on a personal journey with like my own spirituality and belief system. ⁓ but also so I I have been like reading a lot and like taking a couple of courses, you know, when you're like out s soul searching and I recently took a class on animism. And I think like that's a really profound philosophy to like revive and live through. And the main tenant there is just that like Everything around n around us has personhood and agency. It's not like limited to humans and we can develop these relationships with those kin who are non-human. And like what that could look like and what that connection could provide, provide, like you just said, of like it could provide a solid foundation for us to feel more at home within ourselves, at home within the world, at home within the universe, and not be like just constantly searching for something that's that we can never define because it's not definable. Like we're a part of this constellation of stars and finding our way back there basically instead of just like working so hard to like find this new path that actually is we are finding that it's not fulfilling for so many of us, you know?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, like the real path. You know, I it's almost like we walk down this constructed path, right? And one day it's like, what am I doing here? This I don't even know if this is authentic for me. And then you realize, ⁓ this wasn't how it was when I was a kid. And then this was imposed on me. And now I gotta get back to.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: my my roots, whatever, even though maybe my family did not agree with that, you know, that was not part of their sphere of comfortability, let's just say. And I think, you know, potentially a lot of queer folk, you know, always felt a little bit out of certain situation. I can speak for myself that I've always felt like the odd one out a little bit. But then now one day it's just like I was like, I'm busting out of this labyrinth I'm in. And I just found a door and went out. But then all of a sudden it's like the great unknown. And you're like, okay.
speaker-0: Well, certainty is really nice, right? Even when it's toxic. I think like that's the problem. You know, it's I I think ⁓ we're constantly grappling with ⁓ you know, if you've opened the door to big questions, then you're opening the door into unknown and to uncertainty, and you we actually have to surrender then. It's not a choice anymore. You're just like, Yep, everything is uncertain and I'm just gonna float. And that's really hard for us. I think it's very hum like it's a hum in human nature that we want certainty and structure. I think that's why organized religion worked on the people that it worked on and and like still works till this day. And if that's what people like prefer, there's like no judgment at all. But I think like it does give some sort of certainty and answers to what's coming up and for for folks who Who lean more into questioning and like being like, is this my path? How has this been constructed for me? How does it show up in my life? And are like opening all of these can of worms? Then it's just kind of being like, there has to be some sort of surrender to being like, and well, everything is possible, and that's so fucking liberating. And it's also so terrifying. Like, what do you mean everything is possible? Why? Yeah.
speaker-1: Is it so terrifying? Yeah, and I've been working a lot with the surrender these days. I love this conversation so much because you're just speaking my language. And w before this we were talking about the breakdown and breakthrough. And you know, with surrender, it's like you gotta I've been thinking about like poker, like you gotta put all your chips in. All of them. You can't hold one back. You can't be like, but this is my lucky chip. So I'm gonna stick it in my pocket, you know? And I've thought, ⁓ I pushed them all in. And then I'm like, ⁓ no, I stuck some in my pocket and my pants, maybe one stuck down in my sock, like all it.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
speaker-1: And it's really it is terrifying and exhilarating and it's just like and how am I gonna stick with it?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I think also for me it's been a lot about it's a really fine line between between like acceptance of that and then also like self judgment sometimes because I I I will find a chip. Like I know I will. And then I'll have to be like, ⁓ I forgive you, it's okay. It's very human to still want control on that one little piece. I will like begrudgingly put it in, but I will forgive myself in the process of like, you know, it's it's like it's not linear, you know. I think like that's that's like what I'm trying to to learn too, is just like it's a spiral. Everything is a spiral and you will come back to the same place but with it with different eyes. And if you feel like even 10% different than you did the last time you were at the same point, then that's a win, right? And like allow it like that's also a part of the process to un of unfolding is like giving myself for me like the grace and the ⁓ and building capacity to be able to hold all of the different versions of me that might show up at any time, you know, like the Whether it was like the sixty-year-old mace or like the thirty-year-old mace or like the sixty-year-old mace, right? Like the all of these versions are within us. And I think giving myself grace that like I can hold whoever's going to show up at the table, trusting myself enough t to know that like it at any given moment I will act out of integrity to the best of my ability. Like that kind of like the knowing in my bones, like, okay. Is this an alignment with me? Is this an integrity in this moment? And like acting out of that place. And then withholding judgment in a couple of months if that truth if that truth no longer resonates, being like, Well, past made bass past mace did the best she could with the information she had, you know? It's a dance. It's definitely so complicated.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, I mean I th this this is what I also love about this podcast. I listed it under philosophy because I also wanna say that I think travel is just leaving the familiar. You don't have to cross borders.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I love that you say that you listed this under philosophy because to me, travel is very linked to spirituality. Like I think, you know, like you said, sometimes you don't need to leave your zip code even to travel somewhere. You could just be on this jour internal journey and that's also travel. But I think like the way that I personally experience being in a new place. There's always this moment. Typically happens frequently i in in the same trip where I feel like so big and so small at the same time. It feels very spiritual, it feels very sacred of like, ⁓ my God, in this moment in time, I'm just a no nobody in a strange land, and I might not even understand the language. And it makes me feel both the like the finiteness of human life, the fleetingness of our human experience, and also the grandiosity that I can experience all of this diversity within a lifetime. You know? So it feels like a very encompassing spiritual experience. whether you take it at the at the extreme of like you going, like hopping continents, or you're like, in front of your altar meditating and trying to unlock something, like it feels resonant on both ends.
speaker-1: Agreed. It's so true. That said, do you want to share or would you be willing to share one of your childhood memories of Iraq? 'Cause you had to leave when you were eleven, right? When you were a kid.
speaker-0: Good memory. Good memory. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about home and a lot about you know, I haven't been back f since twenty fourteen. Iraq, even like longer than that. And I think like I would love to go back, but also there like at what cost? Right? Like there's a lot to consider, to contemplate in terms of like physical safety, right? Like anything that happens in the region and like air traffic is just stopped and you're just like, Okay, ⁓ I'm a sitting duck right now and then there are considerations with safety as like a a queer woman with a half shaved head, you know? Like I and and, you know, I I think like there is a lot to think through. ⁓ yeah, I'm having a hard time thinking of a specific memory. I think there's a lot of like redefinition and reworking of like what does that mean now for me in my thirties versus what I was. eleven, you know, I wasn't even really officially a teenager yet. ⁓ but I think like there the my best memories of it it's are still with me. You know, like they're in my mom's like cooking and the way that like you know she speaks to me sometimes when like she's really like elated or happy or even mad, right? ⁓ it's in It's in all of these like ⁓ habitual ways that I exist that feel very alive, right? And also kind of different, right? Like they're they're very embodied manifestations of home. And so I'm in a very different place with like what it feels like to carry this within and ha ⁓ move move from a place of like home like the pieces of home that I love are all are always with me and within me. ⁓ in living in my body instead of having it be an external thing because in so many ways Colorado's home now too, right? And so like that kind of like that holding that duality constantly can be really exhausting at times. So definitely trying to like find different ways to like integrate all of these things within within the way that I exist. And it's mostly a work in progress, but yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ humaning. Yeah, 'cause you've been here twelve years now in Denver.
speaker-0: Yeah, gosh.
speaker-1: In of growing up.
speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. Twelve years. She's the longest I've ever been in any place. So wow. Like by far. Yeah. Like outside of Iraq, which I was like a child, you know. ⁓ I left when I was eleven and I lived in Syria for five years, and then I lived in Kuwait for six years, and then in Denver for twelve. So it's actually like double the amount of time that I've lived anywhere else.
speaker-1: ⁓ that's a lot. Yeah.
speaker-0: And that like carries a lot within it. ⁓ like I'm a regular at coffee shops now. And it's like a like an experience I've never had before, you know? Like my friends are actually all like 30 minutes drive max, you know. I've never experienced that in my life.
speaker-1: That is hysterical. I love that that you say that Iraq is still very much with you in Denver and you see it within your family and I'm sure also some spaces you spend time
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the spaces that I create too, I think there is a a bittersweet feeling that I'm like coming to peace with experiencing probably for the rest of my life. ⁓ that I will always be a person who like is like straddling these different layers of existence. You know, like Syria has always meant so much to me as well. And I live my formative years there. My mom is originally Syrian. Like there's a lot of duality in what I hold. And I think that comes with like Yeah, a lot of like bitter sweetness to it, right? Of like, ⁓ my gosh, I get to experience all of this vastness. I get to hold all of this fast n vastness. And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's lonely ⁓ to to be holding like all of these different cultures within. But I think the sweet part of that is like that I get to put it in whatever I create within my community, within what I choose to produce out in the world, within the relationships I have, and coming, you know, really trying to come to peace with that, that that is the true expression of home. It doesn't need to be an actual physical land. And in this moment of my life, Denver is the, is the physical land, you know.
speaker-1: Absolutely. 100%. So what's a tip from the road that can be philosophical or something literal as far as what is something traveling has really taught you and that you use in your everyday life?
speaker-0: Awe travel travel is like a really intense experience of wonder and awe. Like every day. Like every day you wake up and go and see something new or explore a new place or eat a new meal that you've never tried before. And I think practicing that on like a grander level really helps me reflect on like where where there is awe in the day to day as well. Right? Like a friend reaching out with a text ⁓ that's really deeply heart heartfelt, or someone reaching out for help, like out of the blue, or hearing from you, like come on the podcast after we like run into each other after years of not seeing each other, right? Like awe is around us everywhere. You know, me sitting in the backyard this morning and like seeing like a a blue bird just come out of nowhere. That's also awe. And so I think that is something that I definitely have learned throughout my travel and also throughout like Andrea too, to just bring it back full circle, right? Of like, awe isn't the mundane too, and we can find it everywhere we look. And that also helps with gratitude of like, yeah, th there were moments of awe today. That's something to be grateful for.
speaker-1: One hundred percent. I've been trying to fine tune my idea of seeing magic in the mundane. Mm-hmm. Like if you sit and just really sit, s ⁓ I find this is easier to do in nature. And you start seeing all the different layers, like you start noticing the ants and the bee flying by. And then the way the the leaf moves and then that sense of awe, you can find it anywhere you go. And Andrea's really good at pointing that out. And I do want to loop it back to that because that night I I thought was so magical and For me, I think to be in a crowd at Red Rocks of 10,000 queers and allies, I really felt in Anne Andrea and the Colorado Symphony and everyone that was there, it was such a magical, peaceful, loving, caring, heartfelt. And those are those moments that I just am like, see, we can do this as people. People were very kind. People were so considerate. And I left a little bit early because I didn't want to get stuck in the traffic. And their words ricocheted all the way down the canyon into my truck, even though by the time I got to my truck they were muffled. But I was like, see, no one ever dies. I believe that no one ever dies. We're just passing it along to somebody else, something we've learned, which they pass along, and that that night just really gave me that hope that when we get together with an open heart, everything just seems so possible.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I c I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. It was such a magical night. Yeah. It it they were like such a living example. And I say living intentionally because they still are, to your point. Like, I don't think they died. Like that no one really dies. let alone someone of their caliber and what they did for everyone. I think like there's like there's such a living proof that All we need is just to like live from the heart. And like and I think like I definitely felt that that night. And every time I read their poetry, ⁓ or like in their ⁓ I'm in any kind of like a presence that feels so profound and so untranslatable. It's it's a glimmer, right? It's that is another moment of awe, right? That that lasted a whole four hours. Whole four hours of awe.
speaker-1: Yes, I love that. So as we're wrapping up, quickly, what are you working on right now?
speaker-0: I recently launched my coaching practice and it's kind of like yeah, I mean it feels great. ⁓ but you know, it's it's also uncertain and I'm also trying things out and just feeling called to my own form of service and my own like I just believe that what I'm here to do has a lot to do with people. And so yeah, that's kind of like my future endeavor and putting some ⁓ blood, sweat and tears there. But it's yeah, it it's yeah. It's my favorite thing because, you know, there's magic that happens when we are witnessed, right? And like that's a big part of being a being a coach. It's like just being in the discomfort with you, witnessing you, reminding you of who you are and like working as a mirror. ⁓ to reflect back both the shadowy parts and the beautiful parts so you can access what you already know. I think that's purest form is just witnessing.
speaker-1: I agree with you 100%. I love the idea that awe is something we can practice at any time, anywhere. We don't have to be standing inside the alumbra to experience it, but it sure can help. We can find it in our own backyard, in another person, in a moment of connection if we're paying attention. And maybe that's part of what Maze means when she's talking about witnessing. Noticing what's here and in each other. If you're looking to work with a phenomenal life coach and want to find out more about Maze, check out her website. I've dropped the link in the show notes. And as always, thank you for meandering with us. I'm Erin Preston, your host, and I'll see you next time. Ciao.
speaker-1: After getting a few interviews under my belt for Meander and Muse, I thought to myself, I really want to interview someone outside of my close circle of friends. Someone that I know would be perfect for this. Who could that be? Hmm. Literally later that day, I was walking into Red Rocks for the premiere of Andrea Gibson's new film. I got to security, looked over, and there was Mace. The last time I saw her, we were on set for PBS's humanized series, and afterwards we did that thing that a lot of us do and said, hey, we should grab coffee sometime. Every time I reached out, Maze seemed to be somewhere else, out of the state, out of the country, off on another adventure. A kindred spirit for sure. So there we were at Red Rocks and basically on the spot I just said, wanna be on my podcast? She said, Yeah, for sure. And then we walked inside, went our separate ways, and experienced this magical evening of poetry, film, music, amazing people. in so much awe. Which it turns out is a pretty perfect place for this conversation to begin. Maze and I end up talking about the places that wake something up inside us, what it means to surrender to the unknown, where we find home, and how travel can teach us to notice the extraordinary in the everyday. And yes, we'll be definitely coming back to that night at Red Rocks. But first Let's get on a little travel adventure with Maze Al Nima.
speaker-0: Standing in at Hamra in Granada for the first time, being in the middle of the structure of the one of the many structures in the palace and looking at the walls and being able to read them. So for the listeners, I'm primarily an Arabic speaker. Arabic is my first language. And s southern Spain was the first destination I chose for my first ever ⁓ solo trip because Southern Spain felt like a place that spoke to my soul. You know, depending on the levels of like your woo-woo, I think a part of me definitely believes that I was incarnated in southern Spain in a past life. And the other, maybe more logical side, you know, I grew up reading about ⁓ El Endalus and like Southern Spain and have a very complicated relationship with it as, you know, someone who doesn't believe in colonization and is very anti-colonial. And also as someone who was displaced from my homeland by colonization when I was a child. But then there was this other layer to it that like this was a space that was uniquely designed very similarly to where I used to live as a child and held so much of the same history, despite how complicated that is, right? But I could, you know, I had all of there were all of these tour guides and groups like around me. chatting with each other and trying to translate to Portuguese, to like sp like Spanish or English of like what the walls say. And I was just on my own, just staring at it, reading the writing and just like sobbing. It's such a
speaker-1: Special place.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. It's beautiful. Like I there are no words.
speaker-1: Was there one thing that you read that you were just like, ⁓ my God, I was meant to read this today?
speaker-0: That's a good question. A lot of a lot of it is like poetry lines from different poets, but the sentence that you would find in like mult on multiple walls, ⁓ it reads, Wada Ghaliba illallah. It's a verse from Qur'an and it basically roughly translates to no one is above God. And I I think to me it was just kind of this moment of reflecting on like the cyclical nature of life. Truly no one is above the universe or the divine or any or even history, right? Like very sacred piece of land belonged to so many different people at different times. And here we are at yet at a different iteration of that. And who knows where it's gonna be in a hundred years. And so it was like just kind of a moment of like time is above us all and We can't control it. We all we can do is witness it.
speaker-1: Mm, that's so beautiful. And be in the present with it as it moves along.
speaker-0: What I know of El Endolus is really through more of a Arabic poetry lens, you know. I've studied some of its history, but really my fascination with it was through the Arab poets who lived in southern Spain at the time, where Arabs kind of like took over parts of Spain and Portugal. And In the Spanish kind of way of like retelling the things they called ⁓ the Arabs ⁓ the Moors and like Moors architecture, I think there is something so special about southern Spain that it feels like after all of these years, its people and its spirit found a way to hold everyone. It to hold everything. with such grace and integrity that I don't think we see in the world anymore. And you could see that in Granada to some extent to some extent and Alhambra specifically, by like how it's maintained, right? Like it's a piece of art. Like the palace is a piece of art that, you know, I went at like 7 a.m. and like people are already there, like working on the on in the garden, like shaping it up and making sure everything is good. And, you know, there is that kind of care that's poured into it, not as a structure that like quote unquote the invaders built, but like as a structure that deserves to be celebrated because it's so beautiful and so architecturally thoughtful. And the palace even seeing it from outside From across there there are some neighborhoods that you can walk around in Granada and you can witness Al Alhamra like just kind of reflecting the light of the sun. And it's just magical. She's unavoidable. Like she's everywhere.
speaker-1: So romantic. It's like wildly romantic. You walk in and like you said, there's this moment of awe. I feel like everyone goes very quiet for a moment.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, like there's energy that feels sacred in it. And I think probably the place that I've seen like actually physically represented is in Córdoba, too, in the Mesquita that used to be ⁓ a synagogue and then was a church and then was a mosque and then was a church again it that just again the cycle of time just kind of came across that same structure, but people didn't even think of destroying it, right? They just like re repurposed it in a way, you know. And there's also this intense sacred spiritual energy in it, because somehow people who live there are able to like live in such harmony with the structure, with the place, with each other, ⁓ without that animosity, right, of of history that could so you could so easily slip into.
speaker-1: It's the convergence of all these different cultures coming together and making it work.
speaker-0: Mm. Exactly.
speaker-1: I did live in Spain and you know, when people ask me where should we go, that's such a hard question to answer because it's a whole country with so many different regions that are all very different. And I also often say go to Granada.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think it that's like such a good point. ⁓ I think it is more about like you the personal connection and and like what you want to make out of it. I am realizing that more and more in my life as I grow older too. It's like travel is incr it's an incredible experience almost no matter where you go, if you have a specific mindset with it, right? Of like I'm going to do this intentionally. With like presence and witnessing and like learning from indigenous people. And also, I think like the most powerful experiences that that I personally have had have happened in places that I had some sort of personal connection with. That's why Alhambra is like so special, because in some kind of like old memory in my body, I had like this connection to this place. And I grew up in Damascus and the people who built Alhamra are the same people who built old Damascus, right? And so like there is that like echoing from my past and to that present moment for me that I still carry into my future. Like I talk about Alhamra all the time and I talk about going to live in Granada for a few months all the time.
speaker-1: Yes, in one of the cave houses.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my God. Yeah. There there are like a couple of like ⁓ overlooks in Granada that you can like see Alhambra from and I was at one of them on my own and just like looking at her during sunset and like the colors started playing on the buildings and you know then as the sun goes down they turn the lights on, right? And so like you can see the gradual ⁓ journey ⁓ of of the building like into the night and this guy next to me I think he was from the I think he was from the Netherlands and he was like you've been here for a really long time and I was like yeah so have you like point being and and we got to talking and he was like well I heard that there's this other overlook that's like a little bit of a hike That you could see gr you could see Alhambra from like a different from a different angle and I'm planning to go tomorrow. Do you want to come? And I was like, fuck yeah, I wanna come. and like I I you know, it's kind of experiences like this. I don't remember even the guy's name anymore. It's been years, but it was like a really cool experience to, you know, go the next day and go on this little hike and discover like something that I probably wouldn't have found on my own and just spend half an afternoon with a stranger in a strange land, like admiring this structure together. Like, you know, it's just such a tactile and like affective experience that has nothing to do with the brain. Like it even feels silly to say it out loud and say like, ⁓ it was a profound experience, but it was
speaker-1: Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the reasons I'm doing this, because I feel like almost always there's somebody that's like, Hey, what are you doing? Do you you want to go do this? Or and it's not weird or gross or they want something. It's more to experience something together. And what I love about that story too is that it's almost granted you feel something like this almost like ancient part of yourself wake up. In that region, I have a place that also I'm like, I am not Greek, but there's this spot that every time I'm there, I'm like, I've been here way long time ago. Like, I don't know. So I feel like when your soul kind of opens up or whatever happens.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: that also you can meet other kindred spirits who are also feeling that.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. I I think there's two folds that I'm thinking about in reflection, ⁓ as I listen to you. There's one piece about this ⁓ like spiritual connection to a place that we might never fully understand. Like depending on your like value system and your belief system, I genuinely believe that there is like that we're we were all one. And then we were all divided into these like human beings life, right? And so parts of us could have had an experience in a totally different part of the world. I have a a a renewed belief every day that I was a river in a different lifetime. You know, like however you want to like ⁓ you know, make sense of the world or like these like very felt experiences that we sometimes have in our bodies and being like, What the heck? Like, why am I feeling this way? Why is this place resonating so much? Why does a river resonate so much with me? I don't know, maybe I was one in a different lifetime. Like could be. You know, what it the possibilities are kind of endless, right?
speaker-1: I agree with you one hundred percent. And this is actually a good segue to something I was thinking because I was a producer for Humanize for PBS and you know, that was the second time I got to spend some time with you is and be there in the studio for the interview was about the tree in the grandmother in your grandmother's backyard. And as a kid and being a tomboy because I swear my first best friend was a tree. It was a tree in the backyard that I would go climb every day. And sometimes I think that must sound so strange, but I don't think so.
speaker-0: No. No, I don't think so at all.
speaker-1: My friends are like, Are you hugging a tree? And I'm like, I it makes me feel good too. Like
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the n that's the natural way of things, but we forgot it. Like I you know, I I know this is not not a woo-woo podcast, but I think it's it's sad if that we don't think that we're a part of nature and we're one with it. And like I think the natural way of living or a more aligned maybe a more aligned way of living is to be in relationship with
speaker-1: It can be.
speaker-0: the rivers with the trees, with the earth, with all of these different kin that like they're kin. We do we have like developing relationships with them is very healthy. But then like our modern life took us in a very different direction. And now it's like quote unquote woo-woo to like hug a tree or like let flow on a river and like feel an emotional connection or a spiritual connection where I think actually that's their origin. Like that's actually Where we feel most at home.
speaker-1: One hundred percent. Especially in the United States or in the West. It's like this is how this works and it's like actually maybe not.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I I am definitely on a journey, on a personal journey with like my own spirituality and belief system. ⁓ but also so I I have been like reading a lot and like taking a couple of courses, you know, when you're like out s soul searching and I recently took a class on animism. And I think like that's a really profound philosophy to like revive and live through. And the main tenant there is just that like Everything around n around us has personhood and agency. It's not like limited to humans and we can develop these relationships with those kin who are non-human. And like what that could look like and what that connection could provide, provide, like you just said, of like it could provide a solid foundation for us to feel more at home within ourselves, at home within the world, at home within the universe, and not be like just constantly searching for something that's that we can never define because it's not definable. Like we're a part of this constellation of stars and finding our way back there basically instead of just like working so hard to like find this new path that actually is we are finding that it's not fulfilling for so many of us, you know?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, like the real path. You know, I it's almost like we walk down this constructed path, right? And one day it's like, what am I doing here? This I don't even know if this is authentic for me. And then you realize, ⁓ this wasn't how it was when I was a kid. And then this was imposed on me. And now I gotta get back to.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: my my roots, whatever, even though maybe my family did not agree with that, you know, that was not part of their sphere of comfortability, let's just say. And I think, you know, potentially a lot of queer folk, you know, always felt a little bit out of certain situation. I can speak for myself that I've always felt like the odd one out a little bit. But then now one day it's just like I was like, I'm busting out of this labyrinth I'm in. And I just found a door and went out. But then all of a sudden it's like the great unknown. And you're like, okay.
speaker-0: Well, certainty is really nice, right? Even when it's toxic. I think like that's the problem. You know, it's I I think ⁓ we're constantly grappling with ⁓ you know, if you've opened the door to big questions, then you're opening the door into unknown and to uncertainty, and you we actually have to surrender then. It's not a choice anymore. You're just like, Yep, everything is uncertain and I'm just gonna float. And that's really hard for us. I think it's very hum like it's a hum in human nature that we want certainty and structure. I think that's why organized religion worked on the people that it worked on and and like still works till this day. And if that's what people like prefer, there's like no judgment at all. But I think like it does give some sort of certainty and answers to what's coming up and for for folks who Who lean more into questioning and like being like, is this my path? How has this been constructed for me? How does it show up in my life? And are like opening all of these can of worms? Then it's just kind of being like, there has to be some sort of surrender to being like, and well, everything is possible, and that's so fucking liberating. And it's also so terrifying. Like, what do you mean everything is possible? Why? Yeah.
speaker-1: Is it so terrifying? Yeah, and I've been working a lot with the surrender these days. I love this conversation so much because you're just speaking my language. And w before this we were talking about the breakdown and breakthrough. And you know, with surrender, it's like you gotta I've been thinking about like poker, like you gotta put all your chips in. All of them. You can't hold one back. You can't be like, but this is my lucky chip. So I'm gonna stick it in my pocket, you know? And I've thought, ⁓ I pushed them all in. And then I'm like, ⁓ no, I stuck some in my pocket and my pants, maybe one stuck down in my sock, like all it.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
speaker-1: And it's really it is terrifying and exhilarating and it's just like and how am I gonna stick with it?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I think also for me it's been a lot about it's a really fine line between between like acceptance of that and then also like self judgment sometimes because I I I will find a chip. Like I know I will. And then I'll have to be like, ⁓ I forgive you, it's okay. It's very human to still want control on that one little piece. I will like begrudgingly put it in, but I will forgive myself in the process of like, you know, it's it's like it's not linear, you know. I think like that's that's like what I'm trying to to learn too, is just like it's a spiral. Everything is a spiral and you will come back to the same place but with it with different eyes. And if you feel like even 10% different than you did the last time you were at the same point, then that's a win, right? And like allow it like that's also a part of the process to un of unfolding is like giving myself for me like the grace and the ⁓ and building capacity to be able to hold all of the different versions of me that might show up at any time, you know, like the Whether it was like the sixty-year-old mace or like the thirty-year-old mace or like the sixty-year-old mace, right? Like the all of these versions are within us. And I think giving myself grace that like I can hold whoever's going to show up at the table, trusting myself enough t to know that like it at any given moment I will act out of integrity to the best of my ability. Like that kind of like the knowing in my bones, like, okay. Is this an alignment with me? Is this an integrity in this moment? And like acting out of that place. And then withholding judgment in a couple of months if that truth if that truth no longer resonates, being like, Well, past made bass past mace did the best she could with the information she had, you know? It's a dance. It's definitely so complicated.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, I mean I th this this is what I also love about this podcast. I listed it under philosophy because I also wanna say that I think travel is just leaving the familiar. You don't have to cross borders.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I love that you say that you listed this under philosophy because to me, travel is very linked to spirituality. Like I think, you know, like you said, sometimes you don't need to leave your zip code even to travel somewhere. You could just be on this jour internal journey and that's also travel. But I think like the way that I personally experience being in a new place. There's always this moment. Typically happens frequently i in in the same trip where I feel like so big and so small at the same time. It feels very spiritual, it feels very sacred of like, ⁓ my God, in this moment in time, I'm just a no nobody in a strange land, and I might not even understand the language. And it makes me feel both the like the finiteness of human life, the fleetingness of our human experience, and also the grandiosity that I can experience all of this diversity within a lifetime. You know? So it feels like a very encompassing spiritual experience. whether you take it at the at the extreme of like you going, like hopping continents, or you're like, in front of your altar meditating and trying to unlock something, like it feels resonant on both ends.
speaker-1: Agreed. It's so true. That said, do you want to share or would you be willing to share one of your childhood memories of Iraq? 'Cause you had to leave when you were eleven, right? When you were a kid.
speaker-0: Good memory. Good memory. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about home and a lot about you know, I haven't been back f since twenty fourteen. Iraq, even like longer than that. And I think like I would love to go back, but also there like at what cost? Right? Like there's a lot to consider, to contemplate in terms of like physical safety, right? Like anything that happens in the region and like air traffic is just stopped and you're just like, Okay, ⁓ I'm a sitting duck right now and then there are considerations with safety as like a a queer woman with a half shaved head, you know? Like I and and, you know, I I think like there is a lot to think through. ⁓ yeah, I'm having a hard time thinking of a specific memory. I think there's a lot of like redefinition and reworking of like what does that mean now for me in my thirties versus what I was. eleven, you know, I wasn't even really officially a teenager yet. ⁓ but I think like there the my best memories of it it's are still with me. You know, like they're in my mom's like cooking and the way that like you know she speaks to me sometimes when like she's really like elated or happy or even mad, right? ⁓ it's in It's in all of these like ⁓ habitual ways that I exist that feel very alive, right? And also kind of different, right? Like they're they're very embodied manifestations of home. And so I'm in a very different place with like what it feels like to carry this within and ha ⁓ move move from a place of like home like the pieces of home that I love are all are always with me and within me. ⁓ in living in my body instead of having it be an external thing because in so many ways Colorado's home now too, right? And so like that kind of like that holding that duality constantly can be really exhausting at times. So definitely trying to like find different ways to like integrate all of these things within within the way that I exist. And it's mostly a work in progress, but yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ humaning. Yeah, 'cause you've been here twelve years now in Denver.
speaker-0: Yeah, gosh.
speaker-1: In of growing up.
speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. Twelve years. She's the longest I've ever been in any place. So wow. Like by far. Yeah. Like outside of Iraq, which I was like a child, you know. ⁓ I left when I was eleven and I lived in Syria for five years, and then I lived in Kuwait for six years, and then in Denver for twelve. So it's actually like double the amount of time that I've lived anywhere else.
speaker-1: ⁓ that's a lot. Yeah.
speaker-0: And that like carries a lot within it. ⁓ like I'm a regular at coffee shops now. And it's like a like an experience I've never had before, you know? Like my friends are actually all like 30 minutes drive max, you know. I've never experienced that in my life.
speaker-1: That is hysterical. I love that that you say that Iraq is still very much with you in Denver and you see it within your family and I'm sure also some spaces you spend time
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the spaces that I create too, I think there is a a bittersweet feeling that I'm like coming to peace with experiencing probably for the rest of my life. ⁓ that I will always be a person who like is like straddling these different layers of existence. You know, like Syria has always meant so much to me as well. And I live my formative years there. My mom is originally Syrian. Like there's a lot of duality in what I hold. And I think that comes with like Yeah, a lot of like bitter sweetness to it, right? Of like, ⁓ my gosh, I get to experience all of this vastness. I get to hold all of this fast n vastness. And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's lonely ⁓ to to be holding like all of these different cultures within. But I think the sweet part of that is like that I get to put it in whatever I create within my community, within what I choose to produce out in the world, within the relationships I have, and coming, you know, really trying to come to peace with that, that that is the true expression of home. It doesn't need to be an actual physical land. And in this moment of my life, Denver is the, is the physical land, you know.
speaker-1: Absolutely. 100%. So what's a tip from the road that can be philosophical or something literal as far as what is something traveling has really taught you and that you use in your everyday life?
speaker-0: Awe travel travel is like a really intense experience of wonder and awe. Like every day. Like every day you wake up and go and see something new or explore a new place or eat a new meal that you've never tried before. And I think practicing that on like a grander level really helps me reflect on like where where there is awe in the day to day as well. Right? Like a friend reaching out with a text ⁓ that's really deeply heart heartfelt, or someone reaching out for help, like out of the blue, or hearing from you, like come on the podcast after we like run into each other after years of not seeing each other, right? Like awe is around us everywhere. You know, me sitting in the backyard this morning and like seeing like a a blue bird just come out of nowhere. That's also awe. And so I think that is something that I definitely have learned throughout my travel and also throughout like Andrea too, to just bring it back full circle, right? Of like, awe isn't the mundane too, and we can find it everywhere we look. And that also helps with gratitude of like, yeah, th there were moments of awe today. That's something to be grateful for.
speaker-1: One hundred percent. I've been trying to fine tune my idea of seeing magic in the mundane. Mm-hmm. Like if you sit and just really sit, s ⁓ I find this is easier to do in nature. And you start seeing all the different layers, like you start noticing the ants and the bee flying by. And then the way the the leaf moves and then that sense of awe, you can find it anywhere you go. And Andrea's really good at pointing that out. And I do want to loop it back to that because that night I I thought was so magical and For me, I think to be in a crowd at Red Rocks of 10,000 queers and allies, I really felt in Anne Andrea and the Colorado Symphony and everyone that was there, it was such a magical, peaceful, loving, caring, heartfelt. And those are those moments that I just am like, see, we can do this as people. People were very kind. People were so considerate. And I left a little bit early because I didn't want to get stuck in the traffic. And their words ricocheted all the way down the canyon into my truck, even though by the time I got to my truck they were muffled. But I was like, see, no one ever dies. I believe that no one ever dies. We're just passing it along to somebody else, something we've learned, which they pass along, and that that night just really gave me that hope that when we get together with an open heart, everything just seems so possible.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I c I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. It was such a magical night. Yeah. It it they were like such a living example. And I say living intentionally because they still are, to your point. Like, I don't think they died. Like that no one really dies. let alone someone of their caliber and what they did for everyone. I think like there's like there's such a living proof that All we need is just to like live from the heart. And like and I think like I definitely felt that that night. And every time I read their poetry, ⁓ or like in their ⁓ I'm in any kind of like a presence that feels so profound and so untranslatable. It's it's a glimmer, right? It's that is another moment of awe, right? That that lasted a whole four hours. Whole four hours of awe.
speaker-1: Yes, I love that. So as we're wrapping up, quickly, what are you working on right now?
speaker-0: I recently launched my coaching practice and it's kind of like yeah, I mean it feels great. ⁓ but you know, it's it's also uncertain and I'm also trying things out and just feeling called to my own form of service and my own like I just believe that what I'm here to do has a lot to do with people. And so yeah, that's kind of like my future endeavor and putting some ⁓ blood, sweat and tears there. But it's yeah, it it's yeah. It's my favorite thing because, you know, there's magic that happens when we are witnessed, right? And like that's a big part of being a being a coach. It's like just being in the discomfort with you, witnessing you, reminding you of who you are and like working as a mirror. ⁓ to reflect back both the shadowy parts and the beautiful parts so you can access what you already know. I think that's purest form is just witnessing.
speaker-1: I agree with you 100%. I love the idea that awe is something we can practice at any time, anywhere. We don't have to be standing inside the alumbra to experience it, but it sure can help. We can find it in our own backyard, in another person, in a moment of connection if we're paying attention. And maybe that's part of what Maze means when she's talking about witnessing. Noticing what's here and in each other. If you're looking to work with a phenomenal life coach and want to find out more about Maze, check out her website. I've dropped the link in the show notes. And as always, thank you for meandering with us. I'm Erin Preston, your host, and I'll see you next time. Ciao.
