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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.
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Speaker 2: You actually were the guy who inspired us to do animated logos. Do you remember this? I said, well, what are we going to do in between the videos and the VJs?
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Speaker 3: Are we going to do jingles?
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Speaker 4: And he went, no, No, we can't do jingles?
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Speaker 2: And I said, uh, what do we do? He said, how about this? Imagine it's a picture of a cow. I said, yeah, he said, and all of a sudden, an X comes down and cuts the cow's head off and it falls to the ground and you see the veins coming out and the blood spurting out, and the cow vomits, and in the vomit is the logo.
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Speaker 4: I went, Oh, my god, I can do anything I want.
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Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Bob Tipman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing, and we're doing something special on today's episode. One of the pivotal moments of my life was leading the team that created MTV. I've had the good of having all the co founders of MTV on this podcast with me and in each of the interviews, whether it's chatting with Judye Brat or Fred Ceiber, John Sykes, or Yarrol Moone and of course Tom Preston. We've always spent a little time talking about MTV, so all we wanted to do for you today was pulled together those stories for the first time ever. Tell the story at the beginning of MTV through the eyes of people who were actually in the room when it happened, because all of us who are really in the room often laugh about how far off other people's accounts can be. So let me set the stage. It's the beginning of the eighties. Cable TV was still a crazy idea. Most business executives and most of America didn't understand it or believe in how TV was about to change. And here comes this pack of twenty year olds with an attitude. None of us had ever done the jobs before. All we knew is we had grown up with rock and roll and we'd grown up with TV, and the two had never successfully come together. We thought it had always failed because TV people always wanted to try and make music fit the TV form, a storia. We intended to make TV fit the music form mood and emotion. MTV was going to be about attitude and something people wanted to join. We run a mission so when Iheart's own John Sykes at the time, a twenty four year old record executive at CBS Records in Chicago, heard what we were up to. Well, he wanted in, so let's talk about MTV. It's nineteen eighty the word gets out that we're working on this DO music channel. How do you hear about it? What does it mean to you? And how on earth did you really get connected to us to get on that original team.
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Speaker 5: I grew up with three things in my life, radio, television, and music.
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Speaker 3: That's all I cared about.
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Speaker 5: When I wasn't in the radio station, I was watching TV or listening to music. Those things, to me shaped our culture. So at school, TVs just starting up, and I saw the cable channels were empty and music was all over the radio. It was it on television. So we used to go and shoot the concerts at Syracus, and we'd tape them and send them to new channels, and we'd play the concerts and people like, oh my god, I can see the band. And all I wanted to do at that point was put music on television. When I graduated, I went to CBS, said let's put music on let's run concerts. These three Martini lunch guys in New York looked at me like it was crazy. I got a job in the record business promoting radio stations. I wanted to run the radio station. I didn't want to promote them on the radar, but that's the job I had. So then I heard from my friend Steve Casey, was a WLS in Chicago, that his great friend Bob Pittman was in New York and he was going to start a video channel, and I lost my mind.
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Speaker 3: It still gives me goosebumps.
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Speaker 5: I was like, this is what I was made to do, This is what I wanted to do. To me, it was like music belonged on television. So I started calling you, and I called you, and I called you and I called you, and thanks to your assistant and plunk It, who I was annoying so much, he said, all right, Bob, you please talk to this guy. And we met that day with a borrowed support jacket because I han't own it. But you and I connected that moment because we had the same vision. Music and television were the two biggest forces in pop culture and they were about to be You know, you look.
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Speaker 3: Back on any successful product, and it seems easy. You were there when we didn't even have approval from the board to do it. We just had some money to develop it. So give us a little color for people who think things are easy and they always go exactly the way you plan. What that early development was like.
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Speaker 5: It is funny and people I go, oh my god, you were and the team that started MTV. That must have been a magical and great ago. I don't know. I was working too hard. We were so into trenches all the time. It only looks glamorous to day looking back, but when you're in it, it's a slug fest. There was this idea, but to make it happen, we had no money, and we all quit jobs. You were at NBC, I was at CBS. I was the promotion man the year in Chicago, and I just said, I'm quitting. People like us, we weren't going to fail. I never thought we were going to fail. I got scared when you'd come in and say, you know they're going to cut the budgets. We got a few more months. We've got to make our numbers. That just made me say, well, we're gonna have to work hard to make our numbers.
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Speaker 3: I do still remember one conversation we have where I said, Okay, we're going to the board and we're going to pitch this for approval, and you go, what, we don't have approval. I quit my job. We don't have approval. No, no, no, John, this was development. All the blood ran out of your face at that moment.
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Speaker 5: I do remember I had to look up because there was no Internet, I had to go in the dictionary and look up the real definition of development.
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Speaker 3: I just thought, we're developing something.
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Speaker 6: Go No.
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Speaker 5: Development means it's not going to happen yet, but you know something. But I was like, who cares if it doesn't work, I'll go sleep on my sister's couching another job.
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Speaker 3: We were young. John Sykes was so hungry he pounded on our door to let him in. He believed in music television from the start. But my good pal Fred Cybert, the one who came out of radio and helped create the graphic look of MTV, his reason for getting into TV was very different. One of your great supporters, who I'd worked with and who I love dearly, Dale Pond, recommended you to me pre MTV. It was in the early days of PayTV. You came over to join us in the cable revolution. Yeah, why did you make that jump?
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Speaker 2: Well, you know this is going to sound flattering. I did it completely because of you. Dale had left the country music radio station and left me alone, and the guy I was working for at that time in radio I had no respect for whatsoever. So you called me one day, you said you want to be Intellivision, and oh, you said, okay, come have coffee with me. I went to Dale's files and he had files on everyone in the business, and there was one article about you, and I thought to myself, you know, this guy is younger than me, and I've heard of him, so that's, you know, one check. So we go, we have the coffee, and I walk out and I called my best friend and I said, this guy that I just talked to is so much smarter than my Boston radio He goes, what do you think about that? I said, Well, here's what Dale taught me. Doesn't matter what the job is, work for the smartest person you can find, and at the time you were the smartest person I could find.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what that means to toleration, that truth be told.
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Speaker 2: When you first told me about it. I thought it was the dumbest idea in the world. Because I was a music guy and I had seen, you know, a few Crimy music videos. I hadn't really thought about it too much, and then luckily somebody played me a music video that made, you know, the little light go off. I don't know whether it was blind faith or I was too naive to know that you had to have faith like you told me it was going to happen, so I believed you was it youth totally. I was just talking with Alan Goodman, my soon to be partner at that point, and he said, you know, we didn't really know what was going to happen, but you looked at all the other people that were around you and it just had to happen.
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Speaker 3: I think that's really true. I don't know if you remember, but we went to the head of Warner Communications in American Express and we got a meeting with Steve Ross, who the CEO of Warner, along with his deputy's David Horowitz, et cetera. And we got Jim Robinson and his deputy lou Gershner from American Express. We were worried that when we showed these videos too from American Express, go what that stuffed? So he said, let's find the tamest one over mind. I think we found the Olivia Newton jobs, if you remember. But in the meeting they said you have to play that kind of stuff, implying Oliviy Newton John was too hard to race. But to their credit, Jim Robinson's the first one to say, Okay, I'm in for my aff how about you, Steve so awesome we locked out. The MTV crew we assembled was a bunch of lovable misfits and future Viacom MTV CEO. Tom Preston was no different. It's been several years living in Afghanistan, importing clothes and having adventures across Asia. But when things got two political overseas, he made his way back. And just so you don't think Tom went soft sitting the top Viacom after he left the company, he returned Afghanistan and even has a wonderful story about lying on a floor in a bar and control with a firefight going on all around, the bullets whizzing overhead.
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Speaker 4: I was always trying to figure out where would I fit in in the business world. There wasn't an artist, per se. I wasn't a writer or a musician, but I wanted to always be around creative people. My first grown up jobs essentially we're working in an ad agency. My first account there I worked on was g I Joe, Now min You. This was sort of at the height of the Vietnam War and I was in an alienated state to begin with. When they were going to sign me to charm and toilet paper, that was sort of my last straw. I called an ex girlfriend who lived in Paris. I said, they want me to work on a toilet paper account where they had segmented the population and to rollers, folders and crumplers. And she says, well, you can't do that. You should quit that job. Don't be a moron. Come with me. I'm going to go across the Sahara Desert up in Paris. So I was on a plane like ten days later. That was it for me.
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Speaker 3: So Tom set up his clothing company, Hindoo Cush and ran that successfully for a long while.
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Speaker 4: When I even out of Asia, I thought, whatever I do next, I wanted to be something that I also loved deeply, and that was music. So I methodically looked around getting a job in the music business. Through connections, I ended up in John Lack's office and I told him, I thought, this is a fantastic idea. He says, we're looking for people who have no experience in television. I said, I'm your man. They didn't even have television where I've been living the last eight years.
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Speaker 3: We were both originally brought to the company for other jobs, by the way, before the MTV development even began, by the incredibly charismatic John Lack, who had this wonderful affliction. He liked to hire people for roles they had never had before, and you and I benefited from that. But you got in here the cable revolution wasn't even recognized as being a revolution. Yet, what did you think you were getting into? I mean, this was still sort of Mickey Mouse compared to the TV business.
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Speaker 4: I thought I was getting into one of the greatest ideas that had ever come around. I had spent parts of the summers in Europe, and I was familiar with the music video which were largely unknown to the American audiences, and they were infectious. And I thought MTV, like all of us on the team, was really one of the great ideas, and all of us were essentially on a crusade. We got paid nothing. It was the early eighties version of a startup, very much so. And if you looked at the media environment then nothing had really changed in years. The only thing that had come around knew had been FM radio. There was still three TV networks. Pong was only a few years old.
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Speaker 3: Remember we used to say we're going to do to FM what FM did to AM. That was our big claim.
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Speaker 4: Twenty five channels in the home, can you imagine.
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Speaker 3: Judy McGrath was another key employee in the early days. She eventually rose to be CEO of MTV Networks. Here she has reminiscing about what it meant to make the rules up as we went along.
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Speaker 7: The beauty in the wonder of MTV was that it was really filled with people that I thought could not find gainful employment anywhere else.
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Speaker 3: We couldn't.
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Speaker 7: No, it would be somebody who had never really shot anything and just wanted to get their hands on a camera try it. And we were willing to do that, so I would say absolutely. But remember, don't fall in love with your own idea. This is about someone else, not you. This is about the person on the other side. They're like you, but you can't make this just for you. And there are really no other rules aside from you know, no full frontal nudity. Go out there and do it. And it was so much fun to have the freedom to meet people who were far more creative than I was. I mean, when I joined, I didn't know anything about television. I didn't even like it. My interview was with Fred, who said, so, what kind of music do you like? And I think I said Bruce Springsteen. I'm not sure. He said, well, you're wrong, and I'll tell you why. And then about forty five minutes later I left, not having said anything else. And the next thing I know, they were like, well, you know, look, this is just a few of us. We're trying to get this thing going. If you'd like to join, And it was kind of like, how fast can I go out the door of Conde and ass and jump on this thing? Whatever it is? These people are crazy.
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Speaker 3: What's funny is that when I ask Fred about it, he remembered the story exactly the same way.
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Speaker 2: She said Bruce Springsteen, and I said wrong, because I don't have a good thing about Bruce.
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Speaker 3: The fact that she cared, you know, the Bruce haters are coming after you right now. I believe me.
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Speaker 2: They've been coming after me my whole life. The fact that she cared meant all the difference to me in the world.
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Speaker 3: Not that I agreed, you.
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Speaker 7: Know, I've just found the camaraderie and the purpose and the sheer invention of something that didn't exist, so irresistible. And again, on the math side of it, I was saying, I mean this with all sincerity. You had a map in the creative group, you had a plan, and the plan were promises, and I loved that. I am making a promise to you. You sit here, I'm going to deliver something that you've been waiting for. It is the first music television network. It is exactly for you. And I thought, wow, I want my MTV and I have no idea what it is, but those are powerful words my in an era before social media and social engagement. Something for me that felt like mine and want What a powerful word, right, I want my MTV. I took that very seriously. I took those promises to heart. Twenty four hours a day, terrific in stereo, not really, but you know, hey, it's work.
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Speaker 3: It so for those ten people who did have stereoty, brilliant.
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Speaker 7: I remember you saying to me, we want people to think it sounds better than regular television, and they did. It just felt to me like if I could marry all the things I'm interested in with these set of principles and join this crazy band of people who have no right and a lot of audacity and a firm belief that this can work. What a gift. I never looked back, not one second.
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Speaker 3: Let's go back to Fred and chat about that iconic MTV logo. Talk about the logo you set out, You've got the mission. You and I have these discussions. I naively say, we'll do our own Star Wars logan because everybody has a Star Wars logan. You go to bob Ours will look cheap. You said, look, if we do something no one's ever seen before, they won't know it's cheap exactly. So tell me about the logo. Well, the logo.
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Speaker 2: Itself actually came about because I was too scared to go to someone famous. I wanted to go to Milton Glazer, who's one of the most famous graphic designers of the last fifty years, and I was like, oh, well, he's going to be really expensive, and he'll get all the credit, and I wanted a little credit, you know, at least. So my childhood friend, who I've known since I'm four years old, a guy named Frank Olinsky, had just started a little design firm behind a tai Chiese studio above Bigelo Chemistry on Sixth Avenue. And Frank had been the guy because he's a year older than me, who had always introduced me to every new rock band. He introduced me to the Monkeys, he introduced me to the Mothers of Invention, to the Who to Jeff Beck. So I go down to his little tai Chi studio place and I go, will you guys design a logo for this rock channel we're starting? And they were like yes, And they didn't ask me anything. They didn't ask me how much they were going to get paid or anything like that. And this was right after you sent out the first memo in June of nineteen eighty and boy do I wish I had that memo. So for a year they designed logos and I just rejected everything, probably five hundred designs. Finally they come in the office one day, were actually going to go on the air soon, right, And we still don't have anything, and they bring a pile and I'm like, no, no, I'm going through.
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Speaker 3: The whole pile.
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Speaker 2: And at the bottom of the pile is a piece of tracing paper. Remember that, you know the paper you could see through and it was all wrinkled and they had flattened it out. It was just like a sketched TV. I went, Okay, that's the one I can see. Frank like growling. He and I now disagree. But what I had heard is that there's three partners and one of them wasn't really a designer. She was a production manager and she had done it, and Frank saw it and hated it and threw it in the garbage. She fished it out and put it at the bottom of the pile. He says, that's not true, but you know, maybe or a good story. The only reason I said yes is that Dale had taught me one lesson about design. You need to dominate the space, and that big block em was the only thing they showed that when you put it on a TV screen, filled the whole scream. Okay, we dominate the space. And in a world of thirty channels.
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Speaker 3: And in a day when the screen was square exactly right.
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Speaker 2: So then I go, oh, you know, we need official colors. So they come to my office with about ten different boards and then a little board where Frank had illustrated ten or twelve of them on acrylic overlays and said this one will be for the heavy Metal show and this one will be for the New Waves show. And I'm like, Frank, we're not going to have shows, you know.
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Speaker 4: I put it aside.
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Speaker 2: So I put all of the boards up on my pegboard and couldn't decide. And this went on literally for like weeks and weeks and weeks, and then I start looking at his little acrylic thing with all the illustration, and I said, why don't we just use them all at once all the time? Or television we move, shouldn't the logo move? And to be honest with you, that was my first real revelation that I was in television, that we had come up with an idea that only worked in television. You actually were the guy who inspired us to do animated logos. I said, well, what are we going to do in between the videos and the VJs?
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Speaker 3: Are we going to do jingles?
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Speaker 4: And he went, no, no, we can't do jingles, and.
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Speaker 2: I said, what do we do? He said, how about this. Imagine it's like a picture of a cow. I said, yeah, he said, and all of a sudden, an X comes down and cuts the cow's head off and it falls to the ground and you see the veins coming out and the blood spurting out, and the cow vomits, and in the vomit is the logo. I went, Oh, my god, I can do anything I want. This is the most exciting moment of my life. And we started hiring animators to do all that stuff.
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Speaker 3: The other thing you did when you did those promos, you laid the music bed down first, yeah, and cut to music. People forget this. They don't realize that was an innovation.
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Speaker 4: So I got that all from Dale.
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Speaker 2: And when we started making our first radio spots, we would film country music stars and then he said, we'll go to the audio studio and cut the audio track. And I went, well, the video guy tells me, no, you have to first do the picture. And then he goes, Fred, we own the audio studio.
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Speaker 3: It's free.
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Speaker 2: If you get it right in the audio studio, then the three hundred dollars an hour video studio will go much faster. By the time we got to MTV, I realized that he was absolutely wracked. Now fast forward twenty years. I go to MTV one day and I go, who's the promo department?
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Speaker 3: Now on the one you're the one?
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Speaker 4: Well, what are you talking about?
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Speaker 2: They said, they make us do the audio first, we're filmed.
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Speaker 3: People like why.
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Speaker 2: So twenty years later they were still doing it. But boy, what it did is it brought rhythm.
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Speaker 3: So we had a logo and we were a band of believers. But part of getting MTV to stick was proving the channel's worth to the record companies. Artists loved the idea of being on TV, but the labels needed to be convinced. At the time, David said music should be heard and not seen. We needed a case study, a story to prove we sold records. I talked to John Psychs about it. We launch MTV, we get it underway. We're trying to get some evidence that it's working because the record companies are hemorrhaging money those years. They were thinking about cutting videos out of their budget, which of course would be a disaster for so we said we got to get some evidence ahead of the budget cycle. And you and Tom Preston, go on the road to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Just told on a second because we've got so much more to talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. Tell me what happened in Tulsa.
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Speaker 5: We believe this was working, we felt it, but we needed facts. We needed to convince a record business. So it was like, we need a story, Tom, John, go on their own, don't come back to you have a story. And Tulsa didn't happen until we went to Syracuse, Houston and we went to the cable markets. So Tom and I driving through Tulsa in a rental car literally with a map of record stores and going into places. So you sold in the least records selling Duran. Duran is sold in the Tulips to no, Nope, So we kept driving driving. I still remember it was a record story in an old house and Tom and I trudge in and we say solely this only that so only durand drandren. I sold two boxes of Durandrian records last week? What you sold two box? You sold fifty records, twenty five records in a box. Can we have your name and can we use your phone? We called a box, said Bob, Bob, we.
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Speaker 3: Have a story. We have story.
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Speaker 5: We have a record store that's selling music's only played on MTV. And you said, great, get a name, get the information. We need an article, and so we hang up the phone. I turned to Tom, I go Tom, we get to go home.
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Speaker 3: And we took that and we wrote it as a case study and we ran it in Billboard and the music magazines to influence the record company. I keep going, I have the of course you do. You have everything we ever did at MTV. You are the pack rat.
00:22:54
Speaker 5: I have that one sheet MTV sells records. Joey Smith, and boy that Joey Smith. Wherever you are, tell us Oklahoma, thankk you.
00:23:03
Speaker 3: If you're wondering why we picked those places, Syracuse, Houston, Talta, it's because those were the few markets where we had enough cable density that we could make a point. These cities ended up being little laboratories where we could peek in and take measurements and show the world just how effective MTV was going to be. So it proved our worth to the record companies. But you have to remember we still had the convinced cable operators to carry MTV. They wanted to be paid to carry our channel, and frankly, we didn't have the money. So we had to come up with a breakthrough idea and genius campaign that could do all the heavy lifting. Here Tom Preston and Fred Seibert telling that story, let's start with talk. When we launched MTV. You were the head of marketing. The cable operator wouldn't put MTV on. They wanted us to pay them. One, we didn't have the money, and two that was probably a slippery slope, and so we decided we would use a whole strategy to get distribution. I want my MTV.
00:24:03
Speaker 4: Well it was sort of a Hail Mary pass because you know, we're about to go under. No one in the organization knew we were about to go under, So how are we going to get these cable operators at us? When we knew in fact that the people who actually had it in the few towns where it existed, they loved it. They were fanatical about it. So we actually had to go over their heads. And the idea was that campaign I Want my MAPO, which I remembered as a baby boomer in the fifties, some obnoxious I want my MAPO, but I want my MTV.
00:24:31
Speaker 2: The actual spot said, they grew up with rock and roll, they grew up with television. Now they want their MTV. George Lois, who never saw something that he couldn't copy, had already copied a famous TV commercial from the fifties called I Want my mapo for a really horrendous tasting meal times right factly, and he redid it with Mick Jagger and David Bowie. And on the beginning of the spot he had P Towns in doing it, America demand your MTV. Then people go, I want my MTV. I want my MTV, and then P Towns and again with a telephone.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: Going call your cable.
00:25:13
Speaker 2: Operator and say I want my TAB And they showed us this spot.
00:25:18
Speaker 4: So if we could get major rock stars in a commercial to kind of hold our logo validated, hold it and command people to call their cable company and demand their MTV. Make it look cool, put some animation around it, and then put it in these markets at very high frequency. We go into a market and it would be like a Blockbuster movie was opening. Most people in the market had never heard of MTV. So we went and we pitched it to you. I think you saw the feeling of it right away.
00:25:46
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lesson in this too that you've always done very very well, which is harnessing the power of partners. In the case of I want my MTV music stars who were willing to be in the commercial for free to help us accomplish goals, but you also have music companies and others.
00:26:02
Speaker 2: Dale was this brilliant hybrid of a strategist and a creative guy.
00:26:09
Speaker 3: And as a.
00:26:09
Speaker 2: Strategist, what he understood is that we had no money to spend on this ad. I remember going into our boss's office and saying, but HBO spending ten million dollars a year in advertising, goes, you're lucky you have two somehow or other. The people in the media business didn't actually believe in advertising as the weirdest thing, and so I went to Dale. I said, look, we only have two million dollars, and he did an incredible data dump of where could MTV be put on against how much media cost in that particular market, and he did three or four or five crosstabs to figure out the most likely places that if we put on.
00:26:52
Speaker 3: These spots, we'd have an embed that we would get.
00:26:55
Speaker 2: People calling and making the cable operators insane, and I think we made customer representatives from all over America crazy within four weeks.
00:27:07
Speaker 4: Next thing, you know, every cable operator there were eleven of them in a market, which would not be unusual. On time, they'd all call up and surrender. So we would move at market by market for a couple of years across the country, going from like what was seven million subscribers ended up being eighty or ninety million.
00:27:21
Speaker 3: I had a guy who stop me at a cable operator and said, I hate you, and I go, why do you hate me? And he goes Because my phone rings all day with those people saying I want my MP I can't get any work done. In my chats with the co founders, there's a lot of fondness for this deviant culture we had. MTV was fine. It was definitely anti establishment, and the truth is even the promotions dripped with the brand sensibility. In some ways they defined the brand sensibility. There's some of the crazy stories too. It was fun reminiscing with John Sykes about them. You were the guy who did the promotions. You came up with these great ideas and fortunately, unfortunately with them, that also executed them. Did the Paint the House paint promotion with John Mellencamp, you did the Lost Weekend with Van Halen. What formula were you using?
00:28:11
Speaker 5: Goes back to that Connecting New York thing of being a dreamer, because I was the kid. I was the viewer who thought, oh my god, if only I could dot dot dot.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: So when you said we've.
00:28:23
Speaker 5: Got to put together some promotions, we got to go bigger than life.
00:28:26
Speaker 3: We go, what are we going to do?
00:28:27
Speaker 5: I just said to myself, Okay, what would anybody give their eye teeth to do?
00:28:32
Speaker 3: What would be.
00:28:33
Speaker 5: The fantasy of all fantasies? And I remember just John had done a song called pink Houses. So let's give away a house and you're going to paint the mother pink. Tell us about the first house you bought. When you had to execute it, I mean you had to go find a house, You had to go buy a house, You had to go actually get a team to paint it pink.
00:28:50
Speaker 3: You got to go fly people in. So we went, and you had no money, so we had to buy the cheapest house you could find.
00:28:56
Speaker 5: So Bob goes, take a cashier's check and just go buy a house and I go okay. So I flew in Indiana, and John Mellencamp, who loved the idea, sends his ex wife to meet me to show me around it by some house. She's a realtor. So we go and I go okay. I got about two hours before I get the flight back to New York. Show me four houses. First house we buy, the woman is there, she's cookies for me. The kids are out front, they've cleaned it up. This was a shack. I felt so bad for her. She was a single mom. Look at this house and I said, so do it's a We can paint this pink, so I wrote. I checked, thirty two thousand dollars, bought the house. Her jaw dropped. No realtor just handed the check and gotten the car. Drove back when you opened up Rolling Stone. Three weeks later, MTV buys house on toxic waste dump. So so I call you, go Bob. I had no idea, John Mellencamp writes me letters I have today. Dear John, I'm sure you've read Rolling Stone by now, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to give a house on a toxic waste stump.
00:29:55
Speaker 3: And I'm going, oh, my god, we're stuck with a house. So I had to fly.
00:29:59
Speaker 5: Back and get an other house. But that's not the good. Double the budget, double the budget. The good story was the Last Weekend with Van Halen. That one really really defined MTV as a serious, dangerous rock and roll brand to consumers. There was a movie called The Last Weekend. Ray milland was in there and the guy loses his mind whatever, and so we just said, let's do a Last Weeks with a band. Who's the craziest band out there right now, van Halen. Van Halen wouldn't do any promotion because they were worried about their image. We called them with the idea of like, we're in. We're in, and by the way, will fulfill the contest. You don't have to do anything. Just drop off the fans with us and we'll deliver them back on Sunday. So we did that. The kid arrives and they take him at four o'clock in the afternoon right into the backstage and everything you can imagine what happened with Van Halen happened. So by the time the band goes on stage at nine o'clock at night, this guy is fried. There's been things that were not a Warner, Amex, the Condole or MTV notice activity. So he's standing on stage a completely out of his mind and David Lee Roth goes, we have the winner tonight of the MTV Lost Weekend, Joe Smith. You know, Joe Congratulations. They bring out a giant sheet cake. He's got his hands up from the air and the band's around him, and they take the sheet cake and they push it into his face and the guy is stunned and he starts curling around swinging punches at the band.
00:31:23
Speaker 3: The pan freaks out.
00:31:25
Speaker 5: They take him off and they bring him backstage and we say to his friend, what's wrong with him? And he said, we forgot to tell you. He has a metal plate in his head. He was in an accident. He's not supposed to drink, so they had to put him in a room with a security guard all night. But that kind of made the legend of MTV. I wish we could take credit for that, but that was it. So the contest. Maybe we're lucky we can't.
00:31:43
Speaker 3: Take credit for it.
00:31:44
Speaker 5: You know what those contests did, they creates the fantasy and the aspiration that makes someone want to be attracted to a product.
00:31:53
Speaker 3: MTV could have been a flash in the pan, but the marketing spirit captured an attitude that young America responded to. People tuned in just to see what was going on on MTV. It was a place to hang out, and as the word spread, the channel made money. Although MTV was the most radical of the cable channels, it was also the first cable network to actually make a profit. And we had the highest AD revenue of any of the cable networks. And remember this was a time when people didn't believe cable networks could even be profitable. Boy did that feel good. But part of keeping the channel successful was continuing to think outside the mainstream and continue to come up with new ideas. Here's bread again.
00:32:33
Speaker 2: We had these creative promo departments. Once people came in and started saying, well, I worked on promos over here, I didn't want to hire them. One of the earliest people I hired had just come out of film school. In his first job was cutting film negatives at a porno place. I'm like, okay, fine, you won't remember this, but one day you called me into your office and you said, hey, I need you to be the head of production. I said, Bob you know, I've never seen even the red light on top of a camera go on. And you went, Oh, don't worry, you'll figure it out. And that was that, and all of a sudden, I was in television and you did a really great job.
00:33:07
Speaker 3: Thank you. But it wasn't just people like Fred who got an opportunity to MTV. Here Judy and Tom talking about how he kept an eye out for new talent and groomed them upward, and the culture that the two of them kept going and kept building at the company even after I left. If you think about it, in the days of MTV, we probably looking back at an extraordinary number of women and very important roles. Today would be crowing about it. Probably, you know, whether you like it or not, you have been mentoring people, You've been setting an example. How do you handle that responsibility? What do you do consciously about that?
00:33:43
Speaker 7: I began to see I was sort of a better editor coach than I was a player. I can remember some things that just felt like personal milestones to me. You know. One of the great fun things I got to do would be hanging out in the rehearsals for the Video Music Awards, and I was sitting there and I was thinking, Wow, you know, we've got a female director, we have a female on stage managing the crew. We have a young woman who's the head writer, we have a young woman in charge of seating in events. But we've got women in roles that were not traditionally women's roles. They were just really good. And I do think it's incumbent on somebody who gets an opportunity, like I got to look out for underrepresented people in general. And so you know, when Beth McCarthy Miller raised her hand, was an easy like, let's let Beth direct, come on, like, she can do it. We know she can do it. Everybody knows she can do it. And I looked around and thought, wow, this whole thing is kind of really looking very different than most of the other sets that I've been on. I once heard Tina Fey say something about it's a panel where a bunch of women were sort of congratulating each other for different things, and someone said they were lucky, and a bunch of other women jumped on her and said, oh my god. Women always say they're lucky. Men never say they're lucky. You made your own luck. And Tina was actually very thoughtful about it, and she said, I think timing plays a role in something as well as luck and talent. And you know, I always felt like I worked with men who were not typical and young employees who are not typical. So how ridiculous would it be to take a typical approach to anything else. We were upending tradition all the time, and not just for the sake of doing it, but because you give somebody a chance, they'll knock themselves out to show you that they could really do it.
00:35:42
Speaker 3: And we actually talked about it back then. We said, you know, if somebody's done three or four things and they're not great, we have empirical evidence they won't be great. Yeah, but if we give somebody a shot who's never done it, they could be the next Steven Spielberg. Exactly right, And the only way we're going to find out is to take a shot, exactly And you continued to do that through your career.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: A lot of focus was on career. We're eating a culture that would attract creative people. They would want to come and live there. I mean, we'd have at one point Judd Apatow or Ben Stiller or John Stewart Stephen Colbert. You know, Adam Sandler would like be sleeping in the offices. Sometimes it was a hothouse atmosphere.
00:36:13
Speaker 3: You were probably the first talent incubator. I don't think they called them that back then. How did you pull that together? Because it is really remarkable the people you.
00:36:21
Speaker 4: Had, well, a lot of it is sort of what's the vibe of the place. We always wanted to make the room for deviancy. I would always say, who's the odd ballperson, Who's the intern who's going to come running in with an idea likeyo MTV raps. That was like a twenty one year old intern who came up with a demo in his basement. Because we had these networks, there was a lot of room for experimentation. Everything you made didn't have to be really tightly organized. There was a lot of room for improvisation and innovation. If you have a hallmark for that, people would want to step up and follow us. You just try and have good standards, provide guard rails for people, celebrate risk. You know, we give creative people a lot of freedom.
00:36:59
Speaker 3: One of the people who was crucial tim TV's early success it was former NPR CEO y'all, Mom, y'arell and I went way back. We even had a show called album Tracks that aired after Saturday Night Live. But y'all had an incredible eye for programming, and when MTV had to think beyond music videos, he played a crucial role for me.
00:37:20
Speaker 6: It was a great transition from the radio world to the television world because there were so many similarities. If you had picked me up and tried to drop me into a broadcast network to do scripted filmed entertainment, I would have, I think, flailed and failed miserably. But ultimately we all learned a lot of lessons about the fragility of this brand new thing, music videos, and that was something that we all kind of had to learn in real time. It was humbling, it was embarrassing, and do.
00:37:51
Speaker 3: You think it stopped working.
00:37:53
Speaker 6: There was so much heat around music videos at the time, and there were so many people watching and being really enthralled by. But I think ultimately it became less interesting. It was television and we were using a lot I was at least using a lot of radio rules for a different medium, and people were making four minute decisions of what they were going to watch and not thirty minute and sixty minute or ninety minute decisions, and ultimately had to switch strategy to go to content that people would watch for longer periods of time, long form, and that was very controversial at the time, but you.
00:38:31
Speaker 3: Know it worked. What were your first shows?
00:38:33
Speaker 6: And we started with The Week in Rock and hiring Kurt Loader from Rolling Stone magazine and taking the MTV news segments and making it a half hour show and that worked, and then Rockumentaries and Specials as the second. The third was Club MTV is let's do an American band stand for today.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: Let's play music videos.
00:38:53
Speaker 6: And hire Downtown Julie Brown.
00:38:54
Speaker 3: That was a hit.
00:38:56
Speaker 6: Every show that went on did well. Then we're going to really cocky and think, man, we really know how to make hits. But I think it was more reflection of the fact that music videos at the time had run their course. The most controversial one remote Control of the Game Show, and all the research came back said you can't do a game show. And I remember saying to our good friend Marshall Cohen, we worked with an MTV research guru, Yes, I said, I think we're asking the wrong question. The question should be if we were to do a game show, what would it look like? And the answer came back, well, it should be irreverence would be crazy. We used all the information and hired Ken Ober and Colin Quinn and Adam Sandler was a regular on the show and it was a monster. But the inditial research the way we asked it indicated that it would have been a disaster.
00:39:51
Speaker 3: It worked out great for us. Were you able to sell that to advertisement? Yep? Oh I loved it? Oh yeah, yeah. So MTV started to play with new formats, but as Freshtram remembers it, the limited budgets were actually an engine for creativity.
00:40:08
Speaker 4: We couldn't just innovate it by shuffling the music mix or changing things. That was clear. We tried everything. We just couldn't play the top ten videos all day long. There was always new shows coming around. We would add shows unpackaged music and like on hip hop music with the OMTV raps and so forth, and it kind of came down to the real world day. That was in nineteen ninety three, and that was like, well, we've tried everything else, we should probably do a soap opera. Because young people are interested in what other young people are doing, so they came in with a presentation to me and we had the hire writers, and I said, well, you know, we don't have any money to hire writers, so we can't do this. So then Doug Herzog came back and said, you know, we're really good at post production, that's our major skill. What if we just rented Aloft and Soho and stuck some cameras in there and bring these kids in and then let them live and then we'll post it afterwards and make it into a show. And that was That was sort of the birth of reality. It was an idea that was not born of brilliance but born of cheapskateness.
00:41:06
Speaker 3: MTV was a success story finally, but it wasn't long before the competition started circling. Here's Tom with the story of what motivated us to start VH one.
00:41:16
Speaker 4: Ted Turner want to come in and basically p in our parade. He said he was going to launch a music channel that played none of the Devil's music. Let me say first that the cable music channel lasted one hundred and one days on the air and he had to fold up and go home. But we decided we can't let this happen and if there's going to be a second music channel. We should have a second music channel, and we made the case the cable operators, we have a second music channel. You don't want to add the Ted Turner channel. That's just going to go head to head against the one you already have. Add VH one, which we called the very Hot one at the time because it would be more compatible and it would play artists for another demo and we would sell it to you on a combo basis. Basically it was free if you already had MTV. So we strangled him in terms of not being able to get distribution. Therefore no advertising, no revenue, no light on the end of the tunnel, and he went out of business and we went forward.
00:42:07
Speaker 3: Of course, launching EH one was one thing. It was a savvy move, a classic fighting brand. It was essential and fighting off Ted Turner channel. But once that was over, the team had to figure out what to do with it. The network struggled for years. Ratings were abysmal, so John Sykes, who had left MTV by then, was called back to lead the charge. Tom Preston calls job says, come home, need you to fix a VH one. What did you do?
00:42:36
Speaker 5: As you know, Bob, because you taught me so much of the stuff. A brand is only valuable if there is an underserved segment of the audience that needs it. Hip hop was starting to happen. ALTERNI music was exploding, and a lot of the traditional rock bands in R and B bands were being pushed out and they're going like kind off of the cliff, And I said, there's a market here. Because having run a record company, a publishing company, we were sieved. And these artists that used to be called middle of the road back then, but now they were actually vibrant pop bands. They didn't have a place. And then I saw who are the most powerful buyers, young adults, young college graduates. Here's a generation it's grown up on MTV. They have money, they're affluent, and they have nowhere to go. So I was as excited actually about VH one as I was about MTV. I mean, MTV is iconic and it will be there forever. But the other thing about VH one to me also was it was my own and I knew if I fell, it would be on me. It would be sykes out. If VH one fails, they used to call it VH point one. It was the rating of it yet and for those people who ratings, ratings are from zero to whatever, and point one's of zero to one hundred VH one is the ugly step child at MTV Networks. I used to say it was nails out the backseat of a car to put flats in the tires of the cars behind us, because we didn't want aybody to compete with MTV. But I said, now it quietly has thirty million homes. There's a market for this. And I looked in the room. Half the people like or a sleep. Iic to call that quit and staying. They had a job, but they didn't believe in the product, but they were profecting a paycheck. So I said, listen, if you don't believe in this, it's okay. We won't make a big thing and we're going to fire you, but we'll work out a package and you should leave because we need people going to believe in this. There's a market for this, and I believe that this is gonna be a three hundred million dollar business in the next three years if we all focus on that. So people came to me and said, I don't want to do this. I didn't think they I don't think they would come like, I don't think you're right. I'm like, okay, well, thank you, good bye. They all came back three years later looking for jobs. But it was about believing in yourself, believing your idea, hiring people around you who are better than you at executing what they did. And we put together a team at VH one hooping under run, NBC, Nintendo, Bravo. We put together an all star trip. So it made me proud and working with some of the red I mean some Redstone nineteen ninety four was on his game. You walked in and said, here's my plan, here's what I want to do, and he'd just said, fine, go do it. If you don't do it, I'll fire you. I said, it's all I want to know. Just give me the rope, and he did. It was a great nine years. We shattered all the records there, but all good businesses, you got to reinvent them otherwise they paid it off.
00:45:22
Speaker 3: MTV was the starting point of a cable revolution. The channel and the creative engine we built gave birth to so much more. Here's Tom talking about just that topic.
00:45:32
Speaker 4: I was ambitious and I was highly motivated for this to succeed. I thought that we were in this TV revolution. We had the wind at our back. It was all going to come true. It was too good of an idea to fail. You know, a lot of life is about timing and luck, and I had somehow ended up once again in the right place at the right time, and this was sort of my destiny. I was going to meet my opportunity.
00:45:55
Speaker 3: What you did, you know, I would say my time there. We really proved it was a business. Were the first cable network to make a profit. But it was really you and your team, including Judian Grath, who built MTV and the other networks into this incredible media giant. What drove that and where did that vision come from? And how did you get there?
00:46:15
Speaker 4: There's a compliment to you, Bob, I mean, you are the guy I always keep your eye on the consumer, find out what the consumer wanted. We would always see this research the consumer wanted what we were selling, and we could tune it up a bit. And we also had this sort of slightly subversive, underground feel, and you know, there was nothing really around like that. And we would continue to launch new networks Comedy Central or TV Land, and the whole international world of television began to deregulate in the late eighties. All these countries really only had state TV pretty much as you know. So the confidence I had built from my years living in Afghanistan and India was actually very transferable because I really knew we could go anywhere and do anything. And if we could go to Europe, we could go to Asia, we go to Latin America. So we built really the first worldwide television networking company, and we rolled out not just MTV, but also Nickelodeon and Comedy Central, a lot of others right down through Africa. So the business gradually evolved from one where we would package other people's product like a music video, to where we would increasingly own what we did. But at the heart of it all was a creative machine, which again was something that you put in at the inception of the company.
00:47:22
Speaker 3: When we first started MTV, it wasn't just entertainment. We built a channel to be the voice of young America and that included doing good and my time there. MTV made its mark with massive events with important missions, an Sky International, Band Aid, Farm Aid and of course Live Aid. But it was rock the vote that truly took the channel into politics, and some say even got a president elected. Here's Judy talking about it. You've always done good, rocked the Vote, juice or lose AIDS awareness. How did you think about that inside of a company, and how do you think of it for you as a as.
00:47:58
Speaker 7: A person, Well, you know, inside MTV, it was very interesting when we decided to get into you know, and certainly Rock the Vote was not our idea politics Jeff air off, So Jeff was very passionate about this, and it sort of grew into Rock the Vote. And I remember talking to Tom Preston, with whom I had an extraordinarily great creative relationship, and this was one of the rare instances where we had a blowout. Really we really didn't agree, but I listened to what he said. He said, this is a terrible idea. It's not going to work. This is an entertainment brand. Nobody cares about this. We're going to get laughed out of town. We do not have permission to do this. There's nothing about us that says we should be stepping anywhere near an election or voting or any of this. So I went back and I thought about it. A little bit, and I thought, okay, this is where I come into the picture. I think I grew up in an era where one of the many things I loved about music was it's social commentary, and it is about the times we live in and it's about all the things that affect you in a very deep way. And I thought, I think there's a way to do this where it will be engaging. This was not about telling young people you need to vote. That's not the way I looked at it at all. It was saying to people who make big decisions in this country, this is a generation that is disengaged from you, and you need to address them on their turf, their way, and we'll invite you to do that. That's your shot. It wasn't about trying to be parental or any of that kind of stuff to them, or give them boring facts or anything like that. And so we got as smart as we could get. And I think I didn't tell anybody. That's another thing. I sent Tabitha's sore and Tabitha went to New Hampshire and she called me at like midnight she said, you know, I got up here in like a bunch of candidates are like, what's MTV And she said, and then a couple of them like got back off the bus, primarily Bill Clinton, and said I'll talk to you. And then we were sort of off and running. And you know that partnered with incredible creative work on those rock to Vote spots, I mean Madonna wrapped in a flag.
00:50:11
Speaker 3: Whatever their disagreement, Tom Preston quickly embraced the idea.
00:50:14
Speaker 4: We knew it was important to our audience. I also knew it was extremely important to the employee base. Employees would feel better about working there if they knew we had some kind of social purpose associated with what we would do, and we had one hundred and sixty eight hours a week, we could certainly squeeze it in. It also turned out it legitimized us in the eyes of advertisers who formerly wouldn't come near us, like American Express. But most importantly, the audience liked it.
00:50:36
Speaker 7: And then fast forward to you know, we're going to throw an inaugural ball that's not official and see if anybody comes to the party, and our EM's going to play and Vogue's going to play. We tried to make it as spirited as MTV, but ad a little bit of gravitas, if you will, and meaning you know like you do matter. You are young, but you matter, and you deserve to be heard and listen to, and we were going to help you.
00:51:04
Speaker 3: MTV was a wonderful ride from the very beginning. My co founders and I knew we were doing something that was important to culture, but we had no idea we were going to change culture. MTV change TV. It changed music, it changed graphic design, and it certainly changed my life. No matter how old I get or whatever else I've done, MTV is still an important chapter of my life, and all of us as co founders are still very much a very tight family. But the truth is, looking back, I think we all feel the same way Tom Freston felt when he joined the team.
00:51:39
Speaker 4: I was happy to have a job. I couldn't believe anyone was going to hire me.
00:51:45
Speaker 3: And lucky for all of us, we all kept getting hired again and again. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening.
00:51:55
Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a production iHeartRadio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat Nikki Etoor for pulling research, Bill Plax and Michael Azar for their recording help are editor Ryan Murdoch and of course Gail Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
00:52:21
Speaker 3: Until next time,
Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.
00:00:09
Speaker 2: You actually were the guy who inspired us to do animated logos. Do you remember this? I said, well, what are we going to do in between the videos and the VJs?
00:00:19
Speaker 3: Are we going to do jingles?
00:00:20
Speaker 4: And he went, no, No, we can't do jingles?
00:00:22
Speaker 2: And I said, uh, what do we do? He said, how about this? Imagine it's a picture of a cow. I said, yeah, he said, and all of a sudden, an X comes down and cuts the cow's head off and it falls to the ground and you see the veins coming out and the blood spurting out, and the cow vomits, and in the vomit is the logo.
00:00:42
Speaker 4: I went, Oh, my god, I can do anything I want.
00:00:47
Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Bob Tipman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing, and we're doing something special on today's episode. One of the pivotal moments of my life was leading the team that created MTV. I've had the good of having all the co founders of MTV on this podcast with me and in each of the interviews, whether it's chatting with Judye Brat or Fred Ceiber, John Sykes, or Yarrol Moone and of course Tom Preston. We've always spent a little time talking about MTV, so all we wanted to do for you today was pulled together those stories for the first time ever. Tell the story at the beginning of MTV through the eyes of people who were actually in the room when it happened, because all of us who are really in the room often laugh about how far off other people's accounts can be. So let me set the stage. It's the beginning of the eighties. Cable TV was still a crazy idea. Most business executives and most of America didn't understand it or believe in how TV was about to change. And here comes this pack of twenty year olds with an attitude. None of us had ever done the jobs before. All we knew is we had grown up with rock and roll and we'd grown up with TV, and the two had never successfully come together. We thought it had always failed because TV people always wanted to try and make music fit the TV form, a storia. We intended to make TV fit the music form mood and emotion. MTV was going to be about attitude and something people wanted to join. We run a mission so when Iheart's own John Sykes at the time, a twenty four year old record executive at CBS Records in Chicago, heard what we were up to. Well, he wanted in, so let's talk about MTV. It's nineteen eighty the word gets out that we're working on this DO music channel. How do you hear about it? What does it mean to you? And how on earth did you really get connected to us to get on that original team.
00:02:46
Speaker 5: I grew up with three things in my life, radio, television, and music.
00:02:51
Speaker 3: That's all I cared about.
00:02:52
Speaker 5: When I wasn't in the radio station, I was watching TV or listening to music. Those things, to me shaped our culture. So at school, TVs just starting up, and I saw the cable channels were empty and music was all over the radio. It was it on television. So we used to go and shoot the concerts at Syracus, and we'd tape them and send them to new channels, and we'd play the concerts and people like, oh my god, I can see the band. And all I wanted to do at that point was put music on television. When I graduated, I went to CBS, said let's put music on let's run concerts. These three Martini lunch guys in New York looked at me like it was crazy. I got a job in the record business promoting radio stations. I wanted to run the radio station. I didn't want to promote them on the radar, but that's the job I had. So then I heard from my friend Steve Casey, was a WLS in Chicago, that his great friend Bob Pittman was in New York and he was going to start a video channel, and I lost my mind.
00:03:47
Speaker 3: It still gives me goosebumps.
00:03:49
Speaker 5: I was like, this is what I was made to do, This is what I wanted to do. To me, it was like music belonged on television. So I started calling you, and I called you, and I called you and I called you, and thanks to your assistant and plunk It, who I was annoying so much, he said, all right, Bob, you please talk to this guy. And we met that day with a borrowed support jacket because I han't own it. But you and I connected that moment because we had the same vision. Music and television were the two biggest forces in pop culture and they were about to be You know, you look.
00:04:20
Speaker 3: Back on any successful product, and it seems easy. You were there when we didn't even have approval from the board to do it. We just had some money to develop it. So give us a little color for people who think things are easy and they always go exactly the way you plan. What that early development was like.
00:04:37
Speaker 5: It is funny and people I go, oh my god, you were and the team that started MTV. That must have been a magical and great ago. I don't know. I was working too hard. We were so into trenches all the time. It only looks glamorous to day looking back, but when you're in it, it's a slug fest. There was this idea, but to make it happen, we had no money, and we all quit jobs. You were at NBC, I was at CBS. I was the promotion man the year in Chicago, and I just said, I'm quitting. People like us, we weren't going to fail. I never thought we were going to fail. I got scared when you'd come in and say, you know they're going to cut the budgets. We got a few more months. We've got to make our numbers. That just made me say, well, we're gonna have to work hard to make our numbers.
00:05:15
Speaker 3: I do still remember one conversation we have where I said, Okay, we're going to the board and we're going to pitch this for approval, and you go, what, we don't have approval. I quit my job. We don't have approval. No, no, no, John, this was development. All the blood ran out of your face at that moment.
00:05:30
Speaker 5: I do remember I had to look up because there was no Internet, I had to go in the dictionary and look up the real definition of development.
00:05:36
Speaker 3: I just thought, we're developing something.
00:05:38
Speaker 6: Go No.
00:05:38
Speaker 5: Development means it's not going to happen yet, but you know something. But I was like, who cares if it doesn't work, I'll go sleep on my sister's couching another job.
00:05:47
Speaker 3: We were young. John Sykes was so hungry he pounded on our door to let him in. He believed in music television from the start. But my good pal Fred Cybert, the one who came out of radio and helped create the graphic look of MTV, his reason for getting into TV was very different. One of your great supporters, who I'd worked with and who I love dearly, Dale Pond, recommended you to me pre MTV. It was in the early days of PayTV. You came over to join us in the cable revolution. Yeah, why did you make that jump?
00:06:18
Speaker 2: Well, you know this is going to sound flattering. I did it completely because of you. Dale had left the country music radio station and left me alone, and the guy I was working for at that time in radio I had no respect for whatsoever. So you called me one day, you said you want to be Intellivision, and oh, you said, okay, come have coffee with me. I went to Dale's files and he had files on everyone in the business, and there was one article about you, and I thought to myself, you know, this guy is younger than me, and I've heard of him, so that's, you know, one check. So we go, we have the coffee, and I walk out and I called my best friend and I said, this guy that I just talked to is so much smarter than my Boston radio He goes, what do you think about that? I said, Well, here's what Dale taught me. Doesn't matter what the job is, work for the smartest person you can find, and at the time you were the smartest person I could find.
00:07:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what that means to toleration, that truth be told.
00:07:12
Speaker 2: When you first told me about it. I thought it was the dumbest idea in the world. Because I was a music guy and I had seen, you know, a few Crimy music videos. I hadn't really thought about it too much, and then luckily somebody played me a music video that made, you know, the little light go off. I don't know whether it was blind faith or I was too naive to know that you had to have faith like you told me it was going to happen, so I believed you was it youth totally. I was just talking with Alan Goodman, my soon to be partner at that point, and he said, you know, we didn't really know what was going to happen, but you looked at all the other people that were around you and it just had to happen.
00:07:52
Speaker 3: I think that's really true. I don't know if you remember, but we went to the head of Warner Communications in American Express and we got a meeting with Steve Ross, who the CEO of Warner, along with his deputy's David Horowitz, et cetera. And we got Jim Robinson and his deputy lou Gershner from American Express. We were worried that when we showed these videos too from American Express, go what that stuffed? So he said, let's find the tamest one over mind. I think we found the Olivia Newton jobs, if you remember. But in the meeting they said you have to play that kind of stuff, implying Oliviy Newton John was too hard to race. But to their credit, Jim Robinson's the first one to say, Okay, I'm in for my aff how about you, Steve so awesome we locked out. The MTV crew we assembled was a bunch of lovable misfits and future Viacom MTV CEO. Tom Preston was no different. It's been several years living in Afghanistan, importing clothes and having adventures across Asia. But when things got two political overseas, he made his way back. And just so you don't think Tom went soft sitting the top Viacom after he left the company, he returned Afghanistan and even has a wonderful story about lying on a floor in a bar and control with a firefight going on all around, the bullets whizzing overhead.
00:09:05
Speaker 4: I was always trying to figure out where would I fit in in the business world. There wasn't an artist, per se. I wasn't a writer or a musician, but I wanted to always be around creative people. My first grown up jobs essentially we're working in an ad agency. My first account there I worked on was g I Joe, Now min You. This was sort of at the height of the Vietnam War and I was in an alienated state to begin with. When they were going to sign me to charm and toilet paper, that was sort of my last straw. I called an ex girlfriend who lived in Paris. I said, they want me to work on a toilet paper account where they had segmented the population and to rollers, folders and crumplers. And she says, well, you can't do that. You should quit that job. Don't be a moron. Come with me. I'm going to go across the Sahara Desert up in Paris. So I was on a plane like ten days later. That was it for me.
00:09:53
Speaker 3: So Tom set up his clothing company, Hindoo Cush and ran that successfully for a long while.
00:09:59
Speaker 4: When I even out of Asia, I thought, whatever I do next, I wanted to be something that I also loved deeply, and that was music. So I methodically looked around getting a job in the music business. Through connections, I ended up in John Lack's office and I told him, I thought, this is a fantastic idea. He says, we're looking for people who have no experience in television. I said, I'm your man. They didn't even have television where I've been living the last eight years.
00:10:21
Speaker 3: We were both originally brought to the company for other jobs, by the way, before the MTV development even began, by the incredibly charismatic John Lack, who had this wonderful affliction. He liked to hire people for roles they had never had before, and you and I benefited from that. But you got in here the cable revolution wasn't even recognized as being a revolution. Yet, what did you think you were getting into? I mean, this was still sort of Mickey Mouse compared to the TV business.
00:10:45
Speaker 4: I thought I was getting into one of the greatest ideas that had ever come around. I had spent parts of the summers in Europe, and I was familiar with the music video which were largely unknown to the American audiences, and they were infectious. And I thought MTV, like all of us on the team, was really one of the great ideas, and all of us were essentially on a crusade. We got paid nothing. It was the early eighties version of a startup, very much so. And if you looked at the media environment then nothing had really changed in years. The only thing that had come around knew had been FM radio. There was still three TV networks. Pong was only a few years old.
00:11:22
Speaker 3: Remember we used to say we're going to do to FM what FM did to AM. That was our big claim.
00:11:27
Speaker 4: Twenty five channels in the home, can you imagine.
00:11:31
Speaker 3: Judy McGrath was another key employee in the early days. She eventually rose to be CEO of MTV Networks. Here she has reminiscing about what it meant to make the rules up as we went along.
00:11:44
Speaker 7: The beauty in the wonder of MTV was that it was really filled with people that I thought could not find gainful employment anywhere else.
00:11:52
Speaker 3: We couldn't.
00:11:53
Speaker 7: No, it would be somebody who had never really shot anything and just wanted to get their hands on a camera try it. And we were willing to do that, so I would say absolutely. But remember, don't fall in love with your own idea. This is about someone else, not you. This is about the person on the other side. They're like you, but you can't make this just for you. And there are really no other rules aside from you know, no full frontal nudity. Go out there and do it. And it was so much fun to have the freedom to meet people who were far more creative than I was. I mean, when I joined, I didn't know anything about television. I didn't even like it. My interview was with Fred, who said, so, what kind of music do you like? And I think I said Bruce Springsteen. I'm not sure. He said, well, you're wrong, and I'll tell you why. And then about forty five minutes later I left, not having said anything else. And the next thing I know, they were like, well, you know, look, this is just a few of us. We're trying to get this thing going. If you'd like to join, And it was kind of like, how fast can I go out the door of Conde and ass and jump on this thing? Whatever it is? These people are crazy.
00:13:06
Speaker 3: What's funny is that when I ask Fred about it, he remembered the story exactly the same way.
00:13:11
Speaker 2: She said Bruce Springsteen, and I said wrong, because I don't have a good thing about Bruce.
00:13:17
Speaker 3: The fact that she cared, you know, the Bruce haters are coming after you right now. I believe me.
00:13:21
Speaker 2: They've been coming after me my whole life. The fact that she cared meant all the difference to me in the world.
00:13:27
Speaker 3: Not that I agreed, you.
00:13:28
Speaker 7: Know, I've just found the camaraderie and the purpose and the sheer invention of something that didn't exist, so irresistible. And again, on the math side of it, I was saying, I mean this with all sincerity. You had a map in the creative group, you had a plan, and the plan were promises, and I loved that. I am making a promise to you. You sit here, I'm going to deliver something that you've been waiting for. It is the first music television network. It is exactly for you. And I thought, wow, I want my MTV and I have no idea what it is, but those are powerful words my in an era before social media and social engagement. Something for me that felt like mine and want What a powerful word, right, I want my MTV. I took that very seriously. I took those promises to heart. Twenty four hours a day, terrific in stereo, not really, but you know, hey, it's work.
00:14:35
Speaker 3: It so for those ten people who did have stereoty, brilliant.
00:14:40
Speaker 7: I remember you saying to me, we want people to think it sounds better than regular television, and they did. It just felt to me like if I could marry all the things I'm interested in with these set of principles and join this crazy band of people who have no right and a lot of audacity and a firm belief that this can work. What a gift. I never looked back, not one second.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: Let's go back to Fred and chat about that iconic MTV logo. Talk about the logo you set out, You've got the mission. You and I have these discussions. I naively say, we'll do our own Star Wars logan because everybody has a Star Wars logan. You go to bob Ours will look cheap. You said, look, if we do something no one's ever seen before, they won't know it's cheap exactly. So tell me about the logo. Well, the logo.
00:15:30
Speaker 2: Itself actually came about because I was too scared to go to someone famous. I wanted to go to Milton Glazer, who's one of the most famous graphic designers of the last fifty years, and I was like, oh, well, he's going to be really expensive, and he'll get all the credit, and I wanted a little credit, you know, at least. So my childhood friend, who I've known since I'm four years old, a guy named Frank Olinsky, had just started a little design firm behind a tai Chiese studio above Bigelo Chemistry on Sixth Avenue. And Frank had been the guy because he's a year older than me, who had always introduced me to every new rock band. He introduced me to the Monkeys, he introduced me to the Mothers of Invention, to the Who to Jeff Beck. So I go down to his little tai Chi studio place and I go, will you guys design a logo for this rock channel we're starting? And they were like yes, And they didn't ask me anything. They didn't ask me how much they were going to get paid or anything like that. And this was right after you sent out the first memo in June of nineteen eighty and boy do I wish I had that memo. So for a year they designed logos and I just rejected everything, probably five hundred designs. Finally they come in the office one day, were actually going to go on the air soon, right, And we still don't have anything, and they bring a pile and I'm like, no, no, I'm going through.
00:16:51
Speaker 3: The whole pile.
00:16:52
Speaker 2: And at the bottom of the pile is a piece of tracing paper. Remember that, you know the paper you could see through and it was all wrinkled and they had flattened it out. It was just like a sketched TV. I went, Okay, that's the one I can see. Frank like growling. He and I now disagree. But what I had heard is that there's three partners and one of them wasn't really a designer. She was a production manager and she had done it, and Frank saw it and hated it and threw it in the garbage. She fished it out and put it at the bottom of the pile. He says, that's not true, but you know, maybe or a good story. The only reason I said yes is that Dale had taught me one lesson about design. You need to dominate the space, and that big block em was the only thing they showed that when you put it on a TV screen, filled the whole scream. Okay, we dominate the space. And in a world of thirty channels.
00:17:47
Speaker 3: And in a day when the screen was square exactly right.
00:17:50
Speaker 2: So then I go, oh, you know, we need official colors. So they come to my office with about ten different boards and then a little board where Frank had illustrated ten or twelve of them on acrylic overlays and said this one will be for the heavy Metal show and this one will be for the New Waves show. And I'm like, Frank, we're not going to have shows, you know.
00:18:13
Speaker 4: I put it aside.
00:18:14
Speaker 2: So I put all of the boards up on my pegboard and couldn't decide. And this went on literally for like weeks and weeks and weeks, and then I start looking at his little acrylic thing with all the illustration, and I said, why don't we just use them all at once all the time? Or television we move, shouldn't the logo move? And to be honest with you, that was my first real revelation that I was in television, that we had come up with an idea that only worked in television. You actually were the guy who inspired us to do animated logos. I said, well, what are we going to do in between the videos and the VJs?
00:18:55
Speaker 3: Are we going to do jingles?
00:18:56
Speaker 4: And he went, no, no, we can't do jingles, and.
00:18:58
Speaker 2: I said, what do we do? He said, how about this. Imagine it's like a picture of a cow. I said, yeah, he said, and all of a sudden, an X comes down and cuts the cow's head off and it falls to the ground and you see the veins coming out and the blood spurting out, and the cow vomits, and in the vomit is the logo. I went, Oh, my god, I can do anything I want. This is the most exciting moment of my life. And we started hiring animators to do all that stuff.
00:19:28
Speaker 3: The other thing you did when you did those promos, you laid the music bed down first, yeah, and cut to music. People forget this. They don't realize that was an innovation.
00:19:37
Speaker 4: So I got that all from Dale.
00:19:39
Speaker 2: And when we started making our first radio spots, we would film country music stars and then he said, we'll go to the audio studio and cut the audio track. And I went, well, the video guy tells me, no, you have to first do the picture. And then he goes, Fred, we own the audio studio.
00:19:58
Speaker 3: It's free.
00:20:00
Speaker 2: If you get it right in the audio studio, then the three hundred dollars an hour video studio will go much faster. By the time we got to MTV, I realized that he was absolutely wracked. Now fast forward twenty years. I go to MTV one day and I go, who's the promo department?
00:20:16
Speaker 3: Now on the one you're the one?
00:20:19
Speaker 4: Well, what are you talking about?
00:20:20
Speaker 2: They said, they make us do the audio first, we're filmed.
00:20:24
Speaker 3: People like why.
00:20:25
Speaker 2: So twenty years later they were still doing it. But boy, what it did is it brought rhythm.
00:20:33
Speaker 3: So we had a logo and we were a band of believers. But part of getting MTV to stick was proving the channel's worth to the record companies. Artists loved the idea of being on TV, but the labels needed to be convinced. At the time, David said music should be heard and not seen. We needed a case study, a story to prove we sold records. I talked to John Psychs about it. We launch MTV, we get it underway. We're trying to get some evidence that it's working because the record companies are hemorrhaging money those years. They were thinking about cutting videos out of their budget, which of course would be a disaster for so we said we got to get some evidence ahead of the budget cycle. And you and Tom Preston, go on the road to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Just told on a second because we've got so much more to talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. Tell me what happened in Tulsa.
00:21:29
Speaker 5: We believe this was working, we felt it, but we needed facts. We needed to convince a record business. So it was like, we need a story, Tom, John, go on their own, don't come back to you have a story. And Tulsa didn't happen until we went to Syracuse, Houston and we went to the cable markets. So Tom and I driving through Tulsa in a rental car literally with a map of record stores and going into places. So you sold in the least records selling Duran. Duran is sold in the Tulips to no, Nope, So we kept driving driving. I still remember it was a record story in an old house and Tom and I trudge in and we say solely this only that so only durand drandren. I sold two boxes of Durandrian records last week? What you sold two box? You sold fifty records, twenty five records in a box. Can we have your name and can we use your phone? We called a box, said Bob, Bob, we.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: Have a story. We have story.
00:22:29
Speaker 5: We have a record store that's selling music's only played on MTV. And you said, great, get a name, get the information. We need an article, and so we hang up the phone. I turned to Tom, I go Tom, we get to go home.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: And we took that and we wrote it as a case study and we ran it in Billboard and the music magazines to influence the record company. I keep going, I have the of course you do. You have everything we ever did at MTV. You are the pack rat.
00:22:54
Speaker 5: I have that one sheet MTV sells records. Joey Smith, and boy that Joey Smith. Wherever you are, tell us Oklahoma, thankk you.
00:23:03
Speaker 3: If you're wondering why we picked those places, Syracuse, Houston, Talta, it's because those were the few markets where we had enough cable density that we could make a point. These cities ended up being little laboratories where we could peek in and take measurements and show the world just how effective MTV was going to be. So it proved our worth to the record companies. But you have to remember we still had the convinced cable operators to carry MTV. They wanted to be paid to carry our channel, and frankly, we didn't have the money. So we had to come up with a breakthrough idea and genius campaign that could do all the heavy lifting. Here Tom Preston and Fred Seibert telling that story, let's start with talk. When we launched MTV. You were the head of marketing. The cable operator wouldn't put MTV on. They wanted us to pay them. One, we didn't have the money, and two that was probably a slippery slope, and so we decided we would use a whole strategy to get distribution. I want my MTV.
00:24:03
Speaker 4: Well it was sort of a Hail Mary pass because you know, we're about to go under. No one in the organization knew we were about to go under, So how are we going to get these cable operators at us? When we knew in fact that the people who actually had it in the few towns where it existed, they loved it. They were fanatical about it. So we actually had to go over their heads. And the idea was that campaign I Want my MAPO, which I remembered as a baby boomer in the fifties, some obnoxious I want my MAPO, but I want my MTV.
00:24:31
Speaker 2: The actual spot said, they grew up with rock and roll, they grew up with television. Now they want their MTV. George Lois, who never saw something that he couldn't copy, had already copied a famous TV commercial from the fifties called I Want my mapo for a really horrendous tasting meal times right factly, and he redid it with Mick Jagger and David Bowie. And on the beginning of the spot he had P Towns in doing it, America demand your MTV. Then people go, I want my MTV. I want my MTV, and then P Towns and again with a telephone.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: Going call your cable.
00:25:13
Speaker 2: Operator and say I want my TAB And they showed us this spot.
00:25:18
Speaker 4: So if we could get major rock stars in a commercial to kind of hold our logo validated, hold it and command people to call their cable company and demand their MTV. Make it look cool, put some animation around it, and then put it in these markets at very high frequency. We go into a market and it would be like a Blockbuster movie was opening. Most people in the market had never heard of MTV. So we went and we pitched it to you. I think you saw the feeling of it right away.
00:25:46
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lesson in this too that you've always done very very well, which is harnessing the power of partners. In the case of I want my MTV music stars who were willing to be in the commercial for free to help us accomplish goals, but you also have music companies and others.
00:26:02
Speaker 2: Dale was this brilliant hybrid of a strategist and a creative guy.
00:26:09
Speaker 3: And as a.
00:26:09
Speaker 2: Strategist, what he understood is that we had no money to spend on this ad. I remember going into our boss's office and saying, but HBO spending ten million dollars a year in advertising, goes, you're lucky you have two somehow or other. The people in the media business didn't actually believe in advertising as the weirdest thing, and so I went to Dale. I said, look, we only have two million dollars, and he did an incredible data dump of where could MTV be put on against how much media cost in that particular market, and he did three or four or five crosstabs to figure out the most likely places that if we put on.
00:26:52
Speaker 3: These spots, we'd have an embed that we would get.
00:26:55
Speaker 2: People calling and making the cable operators insane, and I think we made customer representatives from all over America crazy within four weeks.
00:27:07
Speaker 4: Next thing, you know, every cable operator there were eleven of them in a market, which would not be unusual. On time, they'd all call up and surrender. So we would move at market by market for a couple of years across the country, going from like what was seven million subscribers ended up being eighty or ninety million.
00:27:21
Speaker 3: I had a guy who stop me at a cable operator and said, I hate you, and I go, why do you hate me? And he goes Because my phone rings all day with those people saying I want my MP I can't get any work done. In my chats with the co founders, there's a lot of fondness for this deviant culture we had. MTV was fine. It was definitely anti establishment, and the truth is even the promotions dripped with the brand sensibility. In some ways they defined the brand sensibility. There's some of the crazy stories too. It was fun reminiscing with John Sykes about them. You were the guy who did the promotions. You came up with these great ideas and fortunately, unfortunately with them, that also executed them. Did the Paint the House paint promotion with John Mellencamp, you did the Lost Weekend with Van Halen. What formula were you using?
00:28:11
Speaker 5: Goes back to that Connecting New York thing of being a dreamer, because I was the kid. I was the viewer who thought, oh my god, if only I could dot dot dot.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: So when you said we've.
00:28:23
Speaker 5: Got to put together some promotions, we got to go bigger than life.
00:28:26
Speaker 3: We go, what are we going to do?
00:28:27
Speaker 5: I just said to myself, Okay, what would anybody give their eye teeth to do?
00:28:32
Speaker 3: What would be.
00:28:33
Speaker 5: The fantasy of all fantasies? And I remember just John had done a song called pink Houses. So let's give away a house and you're going to paint the mother pink. Tell us about the first house you bought. When you had to execute it, I mean you had to go find a house, You had to go buy a house, You had to go actually get a team to paint it pink.
00:28:50
Speaker 3: You got to go fly people in. So we went, and you had no money, so we had to buy the cheapest house you could find.
00:28:56
Speaker 5: So Bob goes, take a cashier's check and just go buy a house and I go okay. So I flew in Indiana, and John Mellencamp, who loved the idea, sends his ex wife to meet me to show me around it by some house. She's a realtor. So we go and I go okay. I got about two hours before I get the flight back to New York. Show me four houses. First house we buy, the woman is there, she's cookies for me. The kids are out front, they've cleaned it up. This was a shack. I felt so bad for her. She was a single mom. Look at this house and I said, so do it's a We can paint this pink, so I wrote. I checked, thirty two thousand dollars, bought the house. Her jaw dropped. No realtor just handed the check and gotten the car. Drove back when you opened up Rolling Stone. Three weeks later, MTV buys house on toxic waste dump. So so I call you, go Bob. I had no idea, John Mellencamp writes me letters I have today. Dear John, I'm sure you've read Rolling Stone by now, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to give a house on a toxic waste stump.
00:29:55
Speaker 3: And I'm going, oh, my god, we're stuck with a house. So I had to fly.
00:29:59
Speaker 5: Back and get an other house. But that's not the good. Double the budget, double the budget. The good story was the Last Weekend with Van Halen. That one really really defined MTV as a serious, dangerous rock and roll brand to consumers. There was a movie called The Last Weekend. Ray milland was in there and the guy loses his mind whatever, and so we just said, let's do a Last Weeks with a band. Who's the craziest band out there right now, van Halen. Van Halen wouldn't do any promotion because they were worried about their image. We called them with the idea of like, we're in. We're in, and by the way, will fulfill the contest. You don't have to do anything. Just drop off the fans with us and we'll deliver them back on Sunday. So we did that. The kid arrives and they take him at four o'clock in the afternoon right into the backstage and everything you can imagine what happened with Van Halen happened. So by the time the band goes on stage at nine o'clock at night, this guy is fried. There's been things that were not a Warner, Amex, the Condole or MTV notice activity. So he's standing on stage a completely out of his mind and David Lee Roth goes, we have the winner tonight of the MTV Lost Weekend, Joe Smith. You know, Joe Congratulations. They bring out a giant sheet cake. He's got his hands up from the air and the band's around him, and they take the sheet cake and they push it into his face and the guy is stunned and he starts curling around swinging punches at the band.
00:31:23
Speaker 3: The pan freaks out.
00:31:25
Speaker 5: They take him off and they bring him backstage and we say to his friend, what's wrong with him? And he said, we forgot to tell you. He has a metal plate in his head. He was in an accident. He's not supposed to drink, so they had to put him in a room with a security guard all night. But that kind of made the legend of MTV. I wish we could take credit for that, but that was it. So the contest. Maybe we're lucky we can't.
00:31:43
Speaker 3: Take credit for it.
00:31:44
Speaker 5: You know what those contests did, they creates the fantasy and the aspiration that makes someone want to be attracted to a product.
00:31:53
Speaker 3: MTV could have been a flash in the pan, but the marketing spirit captured an attitude that young America responded to. People tuned in just to see what was going on on MTV. It was a place to hang out, and as the word spread, the channel made money. Although MTV was the most radical of the cable channels, it was also the first cable network to actually make a profit. And we had the highest AD revenue of any of the cable networks. And remember this was a time when people didn't believe cable networks could even be profitable. Boy did that feel good. But part of keeping the channel successful was continuing to think outside the mainstream and continue to come up with new ideas. Here's bread again.
00:32:33
Speaker 2: We had these creative promo departments. Once people came in and started saying, well, I worked on promos over here, I didn't want to hire them. One of the earliest people I hired had just come out of film school. In his first job was cutting film negatives at a porno place. I'm like, okay, fine, you won't remember this, but one day you called me into your office and you said, hey, I need you to be the head of production. I said, Bob you know, I've never seen even the red light on top of a camera go on. And you went, Oh, don't worry, you'll figure it out. And that was that, and all of a sudden, I was in television and you did a really great job.
00:33:07
Speaker 3: Thank you. But it wasn't just people like Fred who got an opportunity to MTV. Here Judy and Tom talking about how he kept an eye out for new talent and groomed them upward, and the culture that the two of them kept going and kept building at the company even after I left. If you think about it, in the days of MTV, we probably looking back at an extraordinary number of women and very important roles. Today would be crowing about it. Probably, you know, whether you like it or not, you have been mentoring people, You've been setting an example. How do you handle that responsibility? What do you do consciously about that?
00:33:43
Speaker 7: I began to see I was sort of a better editor coach than I was a player. I can remember some things that just felt like personal milestones to me. You know. One of the great fun things I got to do would be hanging out in the rehearsals for the Video Music Awards, and I was sitting there and I was thinking, Wow, you know, we've got a female director, we have a female on stage managing the crew. We have a young woman who's the head writer, we have a young woman in charge of seating in events. But we've got women in roles that were not traditionally women's roles. They were just really good. And I do think it's incumbent on somebody who gets an opportunity, like I got to look out for underrepresented people in general. And so you know, when Beth McCarthy Miller raised her hand, was an easy like, let's let Beth direct, come on, like, she can do it. We know she can do it. Everybody knows she can do it. And I looked around and thought, wow, this whole thing is kind of really looking very different than most of the other sets that I've been on. I once heard Tina Fey say something about it's a panel where a bunch of women were sort of congratulating each other for different things, and someone said they were lucky, and a bunch of other women jumped on her and said, oh my god. Women always say they're lucky. Men never say they're lucky. You made your own luck. And Tina was actually very thoughtful about it, and she said, I think timing plays a role in something as well as luck and talent. And you know, I always felt like I worked with men who were not typical and young employees who are not typical. So how ridiculous would it be to take a typical approach to anything else. We were upending tradition all the time, and not just for the sake of doing it, but because you give somebody a chance, they'll knock themselves out to show you that they could really do it.
00:35:42
Speaker 3: And we actually talked about it back then. We said, you know, if somebody's done three or four things and they're not great, we have empirical evidence they won't be great. Yeah, but if we give somebody a shot who's never done it, they could be the next Steven Spielberg. Exactly right, And the only way we're going to find out is to take a shot, exactly And you continued to do that through your career.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: A lot of focus was on career. We're eating a culture that would attract creative people. They would want to come and live there. I mean, we'd have at one point Judd Apatow or Ben Stiller or John Stewart Stephen Colbert. You know, Adam Sandler would like be sleeping in the offices. Sometimes it was a hothouse atmosphere.
00:36:13
Speaker 3: You were probably the first talent incubator. I don't think they called them that back then. How did you pull that together? Because it is really remarkable the people you.
00:36:21
Speaker 4: Had, well, a lot of it is sort of what's the vibe of the place. We always wanted to make the room for deviancy. I would always say, who's the odd ballperson, Who's the intern who's going to come running in with an idea likeyo MTV raps. That was like a twenty one year old intern who came up with a demo in his basement. Because we had these networks, there was a lot of room for experimentation. Everything you made didn't have to be really tightly organized. There was a lot of room for improvisation and innovation. If you have a hallmark for that, people would want to step up and follow us. You just try and have good standards, provide guard rails for people, celebrate risk. You know, we give creative people a lot of freedom.
00:36:59
Speaker 3: One of the people who was crucial tim TV's early success it was former NPR CEO y'all, Mom, y'arell and I went way back. We even had a show called album Tracks that aired after Saturday Night Live. But y'all had an incredible eye for programming, and when MTV had to think beyond music videos, he played a crucial role for me.
00:37:20
Speaker 6: It was a great transition from the radio world to the television world because there were so many similarities. If you had picked me up and tried to drop me into a broadcast network to do scripted filmed entertainment, I would have, I think, flailed and failed miserably. But ultimately we all learned a lot of lessons about the fragility of this brand new thing, music videos, and that was something that we all kind of had to learn in real time. It was humbling, it was embarrassing, and do.
00:37:51
Speaker 3: You think it stopped working.
00:37:53
Speaker 6: There was so much heat around music videos at the time, and there were so many people watching and being really enthralled by. But I think ultimately it became less interesting. It was television and we were using a lot I was at least using a lot of radio rules for a different medium, and people were making four minute decisions of what they were going to watch and not thirty minute and sixty minute or ninety minute decisions, and ultimately had to switch strategy to go to content that people would watch for longer periods of time, long form, and that was very controversial at the time, but you.
00:38:31
Speaker 3: Know it worked. What were your first shows?
00:38:33
Speaker 6: And we started with The Week in Rock and hiring Kurt Loader from Rolling Stone magazine and taking the MTV news segments and making it a half hour show and that worked, and then Rockumentaries and Specials as the second. The third was Club MTV is let's do an American band stand for today.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: Let's play music videos.
00:38:53
Speaker 6: And hire Downtown Julie Brown.
00:38:54
Speaker 3: That was a hit.
00:38:56
Speaker 6: Every show that went on did well. Then we're going to really cocky and think, man, we really know how to make hits. But I think it was more reflection of the fact that music videos at the time had run their course. The most controversial one remote Control of the Game Show, and all the research came back said you can't do a game show. And I remember saying to our good friend Marshall Cohen, we worked with an MTV research guru, Yes, I said, I think we're asking the wrong question. The question should be if we were to do a game show, what would it look like? And the answer came back, well, it should be irreverence would be crazy. We used all the information and hired Ken Ober and Colin Quinn and Adam Sandler was a regular on the show and it was a monster. But the inditial research the way we asked it indicated that it would have been a disaster.
00:39:51
Speaker 3: It worked out great for us. Were you able to sell that to advertisement? Yep? Oh I loved it? Oh yeah, yeah. So MTV started to play with new formats, but as Freshtram remembers it, the limited budgets were actually an engine for creativity.
00:40:08
Speaker 4: We couldn't just innovate it by shuffling the music mix or changing things. That was clear. We tried everything. We just couldn't play the top ten videos all day long. There was always new shows coming around. We would add shows unpackaged music and like on hip hop music with the OMTV raps and so forth, and it kind of came down to the real world day. That was in nineteen ninety three, and that was like, well, we've tried everything else, we should probably do a soap opera. Because young people are interested in what other young people are doing, so they came in with a presentation to me and we had the hire writers, and I said, well, you know, we don't have any money to hire writers, so we can't do this. So then Doug Herzog came back and said, you know, we're really good at post production, that's our major skill. What if we just rented Aloft and Soho and stuck some cameras in there and bring these kids in and then let them live and then we'll post it afterwards and make it into a show. And that was That was sort of the birth of reality. It was an idea that was not born of brilliance but born of cheapskateness.
00:41:06
Speaker 3: MTV was a success story finally, but it wasn't long before the competition started circling. Here's Tom with the story of what motivated us to start VH one.
00:41:16
Speaker 4: Ted Turner want to come in and basically p in our parade. He said he was going to launch a music channel that played none of the Devil's music. Let me say first that the cable music channel lasted one hundred and one days on the air and he had to fold up and go home. But we decided we can't let this happen and if there's going to be a second music channel. We should have a second music channel, and we made the case the cable operators, we have a second music channel. You don't want to add the Ted Turner channel. That's just going to go head to head against the one you already have. Add VH one, which we called the very Hot one at the time because it would be more compatible and it would play artists for another demo and we would sell it to you on a combo basis. Basically it was free if you already had MTV. So we strangled him in terms of not being able to get distribution. Therefore no advertising, no revenue, no light on the end of the tunnel, and he went out of business and we went forward.
00:42:07
Speaker 3: Of course, launching EH one was one thing. It was a savvy move, a classic fighting brand. It was essential and fighting off Ted Turner channel. But once that was over, the team had to figure out what to do with it. The network struggled for years. Ratings were abysmal, so John Sykes, who had left MTV by then, was called back to lead the charge. Tom Preston calls job says, come home, need you to fix a VH one. What did you do?
00:42:36
Speaker 5: As you know, Bob, because you taught me so much of the stuff. A brand is only valuable if there is an underserved segment of the audience that needs it. Hip hop was starting to happen. ALTERNI music was exploding, and a lot of the traditional rock bands in R and B bands were being pushed out and they're going like kind off of the cliff, And I said, there's a market here. Because having run a record company, a publishing company, we were sieved. And these artists that used to be called middle of the road back then, but now they were actually vibrant pop bands. They didn't have a place. And then I saw who are the most powerful buyers, young adults, young college graduates. Here's a generation it's grown up on MTV. They have money, they're affluent, and they have nowhere to go. So I was as excited actually about VH one as I was about MTV. I mean, MTV is iconic and it will be there forever. But the other thing about VH one to me also was it was my own and I knew if I fell, it would be on me. It would be sykes out. If VH one fails, they used to call it VH point one. It was the rating of it yet and for those people who ratings, ratings are from zero to whatever, and point one's of zero to one hundred VH one is the ugly step child at MTV Networks. I used to say it was nails out the backseat of a car to put flats in the tires of the cars behind us, because we didn't want aybody to compete with MTV. But I said, now it quietly has thirty million homes. There's a market for this. And I looked in the room. Half the people like or a sleep. Iic to call that quit and staying. They had a job, but they didn't believe in the product, but they were profecting a paycheck. So I said, listen, if you don't believe in this, it's okay. We won't make a big thing and we're going to fire you, but we'll work out a package and you should leave because we need people going to believe in this. There's a market for this, and I believe that this is gonna be a three hundred million dollar business in the next three years if we all focus on that. So people came to me and said, I don't want to do this. I didn't think they I don't think they would come like, I don't think you're right. I'm like, okay, well, thank you, good bye. They all came back three years later looking for jobs. But it was about believing in yourself, believing your idea, hiring people around you who are better than you at executing what they did. And we put together a team at VH one hooping under run, NBC, Nintendo, Bravo. We put together an all star trip. So it made me proud and working with some of the red I mean some Redstone nineteen ninety four was on his game. You walked in and said, here's my plan, here's what I want to do, and he'd just said, fine, go do it. If you don't do it, I'll fire you. I said, it's all I want to know. Just give me the rope, and he did. It was a great nine years. We shattered all the records there, but all good businesses, you got to reinvent them otherwise they paid it off.
00:45:22
Speaker 3: MTV was the starting point of a cable revolution. The channel and the creative engine we built gave birth to so much more. Here's Tom talking about just that topic.
00:45:32
Speaker 4: I was ambitious and I was highly motivated for this to succeed. I thought that we were in this TV revolution. We had the wind at our back. It was all going to come true. It was too good of an idea to fail. You know, a lot of life is about timing and luck, and I had somehow ended up once again in the right place at the right time, and this was sort of my destiny. I was going to meet my opportunity.
00:45:55
Speaker 3: What you did, you know, I would say my time there. We really proved it was a business. Were the first cable network to make a profit. But it was really you and your team, including Judian Grath, who built MTV and the other networks into this incredible media giant. What drove that and where did that vision come from? And how did you get there?
00:46:15
Speaker 4: There's a compliment to you, Bob, I mean, you are the guy I always keep your eye on the consumer, find out what the consumer wanted. We would always see this research the consumer wanted what we were selling, and we could tune it up a bit. And we also had this sort of slightly subversive, underground feel, and you know, there was nothing really around like that. And we would continue to launch new networks Comedy Central or TV Land, and the whole international world of television began to deregulate in the late eighties. All these countries really only had state TV pretty much as you know. So the confidence I had built from my years living in Afghanistan and India was actually very transferable because I really knew we could go anywhere and do anything. And if we could go to Europe, we could go to Asia, we go to Latin America. So we built really the first worldwide television networking company, and we rolled out not just MTV, but also Nickelodeon and Comedy Central, a lot of others right down through Africa. So the business gradually evolved from one where we would package other people's product like a music video, to where we would increasingly own what we did. But at the heart of it all was a creative machine, which again was something that you put in at the inception of the company.
00:47:22
Speaker 3: When we first started MTV, it wasn't just entertainment. We built a channel to be the voice of young America and that included doing good and my time there. MTV made its mark with massive events with important missions, an Sky International, Band Aid, Farm Aid and of course Live Aid. But it was rock the vote that truly took the channel into politics, and some say even got a president elected. Here's Judy talking about it. You've always done good, rocked the Vote, juice or lose AIDS awareness. How did you think about that inside of a company, and how do you think of it for you as a as.
00:47:58
Speaker 7: A person, Well, you know, inside MTV, it was very interesting when we decided to get into you know, and certainly Rock the Vote was not our idea politics Jeff air off, So Jeff was very passionate about this, and it sort of grew into Rock the Vote. And I remember talking to Tom Preston, with whom I had an extraordinarily great creative relationship, and this was one of the rare instances where we had a blowout. Really we really didn't agree, but I listened to what he said. He said, this is a terrible idea. It's not going to work. This is an entertainment brand. Nobody cares about this. We're going to get laughed out of town. We do not have permission to do this. There's nothing about us that says we should be stepping anywhere near an election or voting or any of this. So I went back and I thought about it. A little bit, and I thought, okay, this is where I come into the picture. I think I grew up in an era where one of the many things I loved about music was it's social commentary, and it is about the times we live in and it's about all the things that affect you in a very deep way. And I thought, I think there's a way to do this where it will be engaging. This was not about telling young people you need to vote. That's not the way I looked at it at all. It was saying to people who make big decisions in this country, this is a generation that is disengaged from you, and you need to address them on their turf, their way, and we'll invite you to do that. That's your shot. It wasn't about trying to be parental or any of that kind of stuff to them, or give them boring facts or anything like that. And so we got as smart as we could get. And I think I didn't tell anybody. That's another thing. I sent Tabitha's sore and Tabitha went to New Hampshire and she called me at like midnight she said, you know, I got up here in like a bunch of candidates are like, what's MTV And she said, and then a couple of them like got back off the bus, primarily Bill Clinton, and said I'll talk to you. And then we were sort of off and running. And you know that partnered with incredible creative work on those rock to Vote spots, I mean Madonna wrapped in a flag.
00:50:11
Speaker 3: Whatever their disagreement, Tom Preston quickly embraced the idea.
00:50:14
Speaker 4: We knew it was important to our audience. I also knew it was extremely important to the employee base. Employees would feel better about working there if they knew we had some kind of social purpose associated with what we would do, and we had one hundred and sixty eight hours a week, we could certainly squeeze it in. It also turned out it legitimized us in the eyes of advertisers who formerly wouldn't come near us, like American Express. But most importantly, the audience liked it.
00:50:36
Speaker 7: And then fast forward to you know, we're going to throw an inaugural ball that's not official and see if anybody comes to the party, and our EM's going to play and Vogue's going to play. We tried to make it as spirited as MTV, but ad a little bit of gravitas, if you will, and meaning you know like you do matter. You are young, but you matter, and you deserve to be heard and listen to, and we were going to help you.
00:51:04
Speaker 3: MTV was a wonderful ride from the very beginning. My co founders and I knew we were doing something that was important to culture, but we had no idea we were going to change culture. MTV change TV. It changed music, it changed graphic design, and it certainly changed my life. No matter how old I get or whatever else I've done, MTV is still an important chapter of my life, and all of us as co founders are still very much a very tight family. But the truth is, looking back, I think we all feel the same way Tom Freston felt when he joined the team.
00:51:39
Speaker 4: I was happy to have a job. I couldn't believe anyone was going to hire me.
00:51:45
Speaker 3: And lucky for all of us, we all kept getting hired again and again. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening.
00:51:55
Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a production iHeartRadio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat Nikki Etoor for pulling research, Bill Plax and Michael Azar for their recording help are editor Ryan Murdoch and of course Gail Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
00:52:21
Speaker 3: Until next time,
