Anglepoise's Simon Terry on durability, repair and creating an icon.

WEBVTT
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:15.519
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Material Matters with Grant Gibson.
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:18.079
The show has been running for over six years now.
00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:30.320
However, for listeners who might be new to all this, the idea is that I speak to a designer, maker, artist, or architect about a material or technique with which they're intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their lives and careers.
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:38.880
Today I'm talking to Simon Terry.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:48.240
Simon is the brand and marketing director as well as the owner of the iconic lamp company Anglepoise, a product that has genuine claims to iconic status.
00:00:48.560 --> 00:01:02.719
Initially manufactured in the 1930s by Herbert Terry and Sons, over the years the product has been used by the likes of Queen Elizabeth II, David Lloyd George, Picasso, Roald Al, and Barbara Hepworth, to name just a few.
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:13.439
More recently, Terry has collaborated with fashion figures such as Margaret Howell and Paul Smith, as well as writing a design manifesto which talks about the importance of durability and repair.
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:18.959
Importantly, the company now offers a lifetime guarantee for all its products.
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:33.599
Happily, too, it will be showing prominently at this year's Material Matters London, which runs from the 17th to the 20th of September at Space House on the outskirts of Covent Garden, where it'll be celebrating the 90th anniversary of the 1227.
00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:37.920
Simon, thank you so much for doing this.
00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:38.400
How are you?
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:39.120
My pleasure.
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:40.480
I'm doing very well today, thank you.
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:41.200
Yeah, excellent.
00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:41.599
Good.
00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:42.560
Was that intro okay?
00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:43.680
Yeah, it's perfect.
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:49.280
You know, once you sort of reflect on things like that, it's quite an accolade and all the lists there, it's it's quite something.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.239
So thank you.
00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:54.719
It's quite satisfying, quietly and secretly, just how much has been achieved over the years.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:55.840
So thanks for that, Grant.
00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:56.879
No, that's a pleasure.
00:01:57.040 --> 00:01:57.920
Have you had a good summer?
00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:02.400
I don't know what it's like down where you are at the moment, but we've been lashings of rain today.
00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:03.599
Um but did you have a good summer?
00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.799
Yeah, the summer well, it's it's a it's a sort of mixed blessing for us.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.919
For me personally, lovely summer, lovely sunshine.
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:20.240
But uh working in the lighting company, what you really want is a bit of sun, then you want splashings of rain and storms, because then people are thinking about lighting rather than barbecues.
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:22.719
So it's a sort of it's a mixed blessing for me.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:24.879
So you're looking forward to the autumn in other words.
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:33.280
I've sort of started doing my rain dance just in case I can I can bring those uh yeah, bring the nights in quicker to get the lighting sort of moving.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:40.879
We have a tradition on this podcast of asking guests to uh describe their studios and workshops.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:42.400
We're talking over the internet.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:43.759
Where are you today?
00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.520
I'm I'm kind of looking at you on a screen and there are lots of books behind you.
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:49.280
So I'm guessing you're not in the workshop.
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.000
I'm kind of at home at the moment, actually.
00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:54.879
So I'm I'm kind of in my um my sort of bedsit.
00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.000
I I tend to look at it because I have to work in in the bedroom.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.000
So it's a bit like being uh being a student again when I work back from home.
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.120
Let's talk about how Anglepoise is structured.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:50.560
In terms of main structure, really, now historically we were very much uh what I call a you know an extended family business, lots of family members in the in the company going through the generations, and now pretty much I'm the last sort of standing family member in the business, um, which I think is an interesting one because obviously, you know, we we talk a lot about you know a family business, but I think that as well can go two ways because I think there's some there's some real positives around family businesses, but also there can be some not quite such positives, you know, around sort of well, nepotism perhaps, and and maybe the wrong the wrong person from the family ending up in the wrong job or in the wrong area of a business, I suppose.
00:03:50.719 --> 00:04:07.520
So yeah, it's it's a sort of interesting time for me, but very much now the buck rests with me, and it's it's my job as the custodian uh of the business to to ensure it endures and and carries on being part of the sort of British design landscape, which I think it historically is.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:16.160
I like that word custodian, but I'm I'm kind of interested to how many people you employ because you have a what a workshop where just outside Portsmouth.
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.560
Yeah, so we're based at a place called Denmead.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:26.000
We sort of have a hub there where we've now ditched a lot of warehousing and all that sort of side now has been outsourced.
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:28.000
So we've really tried to simplify the business.
00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:35.199
So it's more of a workshop, it's very close to the woods, so we can go and spot gruffalos in the woods at lunchtime, which is rather nice.
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:36.959
Do you have many gruffalos in the woods?
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:48.160
Well, I kind of make them up to try and get more people to go for walks because it's quite hard to unstick people from their desks because I think people love working and feeling busy at desk.
00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:48.399
Okay.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:54.160
But as we all know, the best ideas and and all come from when you're on walks or in the shower.
00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.839
Those tend to be the two sort of main places for thought.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:03.839
Um, but yeah, there in the office we do a lot of prototyping, mending, rewiring.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:09.199
Uh, we put together some of the bigger bits of the bigger products there, we do some more specialist pieces there.
00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.879
So it's it's more now what I'd call a sort of design office.
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:20.800
We have a lot of 3D printing tools, which we use not only for prototyping, but also for actually making spares for very old products.
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:33.360
So what's quite interesting is using modern technology to deal with very old products and actually making components that are probably better than they were ever made, which I think is quite interesting.
00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.360
So, yeah, a lot of that going on there.
00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.800
But the bulk of the angle points are made what in China nowadays?
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.160
Yeah, so the bulk of the production is there.
00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:47.600
We make more sort of the larger items like the giants and things that are actually made now in Oxford.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:47.759
Right.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:54.879
So we we kind of outsourced that because actually managing production of anything is is very tricky.
00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:06.480
And I think as a business now, you know, we're having to focus far more on the brand and marketing and and the design, you know, I think is is the area of of focus, you know.
00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.199
It and it's it's been a big change in the company.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:14.560
I mean, we used to employ two and a half thousand, you know, back in the old spring making factory.
00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.759
So now we're down to sort of around 20, 22 people.
00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.600
So um it's quite a so we really are genuinely a small, small company.
00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:28.240
Um, but I suppose with that sort of thing with a small company with a big name.
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:36.399
So I think a lot of people think we're a lot bigger than we are, so the expectations on us are quite are quite high at times.
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:43.600
So when you do something well, it's expected of you, and when you do something badly, people go, Well, why have you done that?
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.240
You know, you know, what kind of a company does that?
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:47.839
So yeah, it's a mixed blessing.
00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:52.240
And when you say when you've done things badly, I'm a journalist, Simon.
00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:53.360
This is in my contract.
00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:57.279
Can you give an example of something you've done badly, something you regret?
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.439
Oh, grant, do we want to live through all the regrets and and look look back, you know?
00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:02.639
Yes, I do, yes I do.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:12.959
I I don't know, I I think in it it's like anything, the mistakes you make are actually take you on your journey moving forward.
00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:14.560
So it's learnings.
00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:19.439
But I think the trick is I've learned is to make those mistakes as cheap as possible.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.079
Um, because you want to fail often but cheaply.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.160
So I think that's a mistake.
00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:40.879
So probably if I I pull back, you know, when I first started, um, when I started work with Kenneth, which I'm sure you'll get onto in a bit, you know, we worked on a product that was the type three, and I I was very much, yeah, we can make this all in the UK, very high-end and all the rest of it.
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:47.360
Um, and then walked into serious supply problems, um, quality control issues.
00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.680
It was a real baptism of fire for me.
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:54.639
Um, but I think the things you really learn from are the things that really hurt you, you know.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:59.360
So I think that was for me was a real bashing, probably on my ego, to be frank.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:04.000
Um, and it's probably what I needed to get a reality check.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:11.680
Expensive in many ways, uh, because we fell out of a lot of supply chain, but then it went on to lead to the type 75.
00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:19.279
We learnt a lot of new skills, and we ended up with an exceptional product that was well priced and hugely successful.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:26.160
So when I say mistakes, I think those lead to opportunities and successes.
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:32.480
And I think we've had more successes, I would say, than failures, which is why we're still here, I suppose.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:33.679
To fight another day.
00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.360
Well, we'll probably concentrate more on the successes as the interview goes on, but it's always good to talk about a failure.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:45.200
I was watching a TEDx talk that you gave a few years ago in Winchester.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:53.440
In it you said that every morning you use a spring, presumably one you've manufactured at some point, as a kind of well, as a kind of wellness tool.
00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:59.919
Now, I don't generally ask about people's morning routines on this podcast, but I am intrigued by this one.
00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.720
I mean, is this a ritual you perform every day?
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:04.080
What what do you do, Simon?
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:10.639
It probably sounds a bit strange, but I I have one uh I actually have it, it's downstairs, actually, because I I do it by the door.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:18.720
But every time I leave the house, I I have a key, I use a spring as a key ring, so I have my work keys one side and I have my home keys the other.
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:23.200
And what I do is use it like a miniature chest expander, I suppose, or or a finger expander.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:30.720
And I open and close the spring, because actually it's quite a special spring, it has a special characteristic, and there's there's a feel to it.
00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:38.080
It it's a bit like I suppose the um the spinny top in Inception, you know, it's it's these sort of objects and you connect.
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:49.600
And I just sort of breathe with it a couple of times, and I just think about my great-grandfather and my, you know, the legacy I come from, and it just helps ground me for the day.
00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.200
It just sets me up.
00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:57.759
And so I don't walk out the door in a fluster, I walk out of the door calmly, and that just sets the tone for me for the day.
00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:06.320
So yeah, it may sound a bit strange for people, but I just find it very calming, and and I really enjoy connecting with those that have gone before me.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:11.840
It gives me a sense of purpose and a sense of you know, a sense of purpose I'm very happy to do.
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:16.000
You know, I'm I'm very lucky and fortunate to have this opportunity.
00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.879
So and I and I never forget how privileged I am for that.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:21.120
So it's a ritual, basically every day.
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.320
It's a ritual I do.
00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:23.759
It's become a habit now.
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.720
I think it's like all things, if you do little small things often, they build into um big habit forming things.
00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:32.960
And I think that's little habits are important.
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.200
I'm gonna get onto the nitty-gritty of this because this is a blatant plug, frankly.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:45.600
You're gonna be exhibiting at Material Matters London this year, which runs from the 17th to the 20th of September at Space House during the London Design Festival.
00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:50.399
You're celebrating the anniversary of the 1227 designed by George Carwardine.
00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:51.519
What are you gonna be doing?
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:52.720
How are you celebrating?
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:55.919
Well, to me, it's the 90th anniversary of that product.
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:03.279
We're gonna go all out and turn it into a whole festival of celebration because you know, to me, I think being British, we're so bad at celebrating.
00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.840
We we kind of just don't do it and we kind of view nothing we do as good enough.
00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:09.919
You know, we kind of have that inbuilt into us.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:15.039
So for me, this is all out, we're just gonna celebrate and and have a festival.
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:16.480
So we're doing a number of things.
00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:23.360
Um, so one thing we're doing is we're relaunching a product which we've stripped right back to a raw finish.
00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:39.519
Um, it's got a burgundy-braided cable, it's got brass components, and that really is about stripping it right back to 90 years and looking, you know, just taking a moment to pause, because I think that's important with when you've got a great design, is it's a pausing moment.
00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:51.840
It's also very automotive as well in its kind of look, which I think is reflective of George Carverdeem, the the inventor of the angle poise, because he was car suspension engineer, so there's something quite nice.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:52.879
So that's one thing.
00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:57.840
We're doing a collaboration with Penguin Random House, who's also 90 years old.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:10.240
And we're doing four giant lights with four different artists and illustrators that we're going to start auctioning, um, like a sort of online auction, which we'll launch at Material Matters.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.000
We're actually launching it on the first day of the show, which is fantastic.
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:20.799
And all the proceeds with that will go to the Roll Darr Museum Story Centre because we have a long history with them.
00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:34.080
And the giant light was actually first done and designed by my father, actually, and was done for the roll dahl museum um in Great Missenden because Roll Darl has a giant well, he always had an angle poise in his writing den.
00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:46.080
So we're doing that, which never balanced actually, so because he changed the lamp holder, so it had a flannel over it and a cellar tape and a golf ball hanging off it, which it still does in the museum to this day.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:46.480
Okay.
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.279
It's it's sort of quirky roll dull.
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:51.600
Um, so we're doing that.
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:56.000
We've got a big student project with students from Wales, from Swansea.
00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.799
I always get this wrong.
00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:58.720
So University of Wales Trinity St.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.320
David Swansea College of Art.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.080
Grant, you should be interviewing for me.
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:02.639
Brilliant.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:04.080
I have it in front of me, it's amazing.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:05.279
Oh, just incredible.
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:17.759
So, yeah, that's showcasing the students' work there, which for me is lovely because that's about the grassroots of design and not just looking back 90 years, but thinking ahead 90 years.
00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:19.600
You know, what's the future of materials?
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:29.919
So that will look at uh surface finish, but also materials uh as well, hence why material matters, it all fits with materials.
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:52.399
Um, and then the final one we're doing is we're taking it's the 90th logo, and we've got Portsmouth students, animation students doing a whole sort of animation around it, which I love things like that because I like taking something iconic and very important to us and just saying, let's just play with it and get creative, because you know, it's all about creativity.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:54.240
It's all about the doers for us.
00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:56.720
Um, what is a world without creativity?
00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:58.080
And that is my background.
00:13:58.240 --> 00:13:58.960
So that's what we're doing.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:13:59.759
Very good.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.600
You talk about wanting to look forward.
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:03.759
I am gonna take you back, if that's okay.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:08.240
Because the 1227 wasn't Carwardine's first lamp, I don't think.
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:24.080
I mean, as a bit of background, he started, as you suggested, in the car industry, and the lamp was developed from a car suspension system rather than inspired by the action of a human arm, which is a kind of myth that's grown up around the product, and certainly on the design museum's website for quite a long time.
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:30.080
I mean, his first lamp was initially called the Equipoise, which was launched in 1932.
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.039
Can we talk about the physics of the product?
00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:36.879
How did that initial equipoise work and how does the angle poise work?
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:42.799
Well, but basically the equipoise um was what then became the the four-spring angle poise.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:49.120
So it was two separate systems that work and it keeps a parallel movement when you move it.
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.720
But he came up with a very, you know, at the time there was nothing like it.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.879
It was but it was also not designed initially as a light.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.799
He he literally designed it as a method of balancing a weight in space.
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.559
So it was a pure piece of mechanical engineering.
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:10.799
Then I think he actually had the Eureka moment of what can I stick on the end, and it was suddenly I can stick a light bulb on the end.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.360
Literally ta-da, light bulb moment.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:19.759
And you'll since have, you know, I'm sure you've got one of these lovely microphone holders that's on an angle poise arm.
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.480
We even had telephone holders.
00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:29.200
They were the original hands-free telephone holders we used to make actually with with this product years ago.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:35.279
Um but the way it actually works is you know, you use the word there, equipoise.
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:46.399
That is actually the spring is an equipoising spring, which means it has most springs um have what I call a logarithmic characteristic.
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.879
So if you look at a slinky spring, the more you pull it, the kind of tougher it gets.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:16:07.759
With an equipoise spring, it doesn't, it's just as tough when it's closed as when you open the coils, because it uses initial tension, which is when you make the spring, you literally deflect it off a mandrel and twist the material itself.
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:17.840
So it's actually a very complicated, tricky thing to do, which is where we came in with George Carvadine because it's Terry's the old family business.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:20.399
We were experts at springs and spring making.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:25.120
Herbert Terry and Sons was the family business based in Redditch in the Midlands.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.240
So how did you and Carvadine get together?
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:33.440
Well, he basically came to us because we were, you know, the expert spring makers.
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:40.080
He needed some quite clever springs, um, and we were the people that could make those springs to those specifications.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:47.200
Um and then it was Charles at the time, who's my great grandfather, who looked at it and thought, ah, we can sell more springs.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.399
This is a great for us.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:55.279
So he licensed the design and proceeded to sell a lot of springs and sold a lot of lights.
00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.120
So that's how it all began, really.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:06.480
Presumably, if you're a spring company and you know, Charles, your great-grandfather, suddenly wants to make a lamp, that must have required a lot of retooling, would it not?
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:11.279
It's a certain number of tooling, but at the time they were very productive business.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.839
A lot of what they did was called novelty works, which they would do you know, they had thousands of products in their catalogue.
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:27.680
Everything from car valve springs to even things like uh tennis racket holders for your bicycle or rifle holders for your bicycle, they made.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.680
They even made toilet roll holders.
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:34.160
Um, so anything that was to do with metals and pressings, they did.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:41.440
And also in Redditch, you have to remember at the time, you know, Redditch was like the world-making place for fish hooks and needles.
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.920
So it was a very famous place.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.599
And it was, you know, you come to a showroom in Redditch, and it literally was a pond where you go and test your fishing hooks, you know, it in the pond.
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.799
It was kind of like that, but very the industry with the the output of that industry.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.680
Um, so yeah, they loved the challenge.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.720
And I think they're incredibly innovative at the time with metal and springs and what you could do.
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.039
They had a big RD department.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:23.119
Um, and you know, because it was pretty much, I think, the biggest factory in Redditch at the time, one of the biggest in Birmingham, because factories of that time weren't that big, not like they are today, where they're huge, you know, 35,000, 40,000 people is quite normal in a lot of factories.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.519
Do you have a sense of what Carwardine was like as a person, as a designer?
00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.079
I mean, did he even see himself as a designer?
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.480
I I guess he probably was an engineer, really.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:48.799
Yeah, I th I think if you if you think about you know a lot of the the things he did, so he filed a lot of patents for all different things and you know he would have I think he he was just really interested in the maths and the engineering of things.
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:56.960
You know, he he was a pure engineer who loved getting in with the you know, working out and calculating some quite complex calculations.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.160
And I think that's very different from what a designer would do.
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:12.319
And I think the original angle poison, even if you look on to the 1227, it wasn't really designed as such because it's um it's a classic, you know, form follows function type thing.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.599
It's it's very it's more similar to a Formula One car than anything.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:25.119
There is nothing superfluous in that design except a few cues like square base, which references Art Deco cues.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:39.039
And I think that was done just more merely sort of looking what was about town at the time and deciding, well, we need to we need to style it a bit to make it fit in because we're you know kind of at the back end of Art Deco period.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:52.160
But if you look at it in the lighting books, you know, in terms of product design, it is you get a lot of Tiffany lamps and a few Bowerhouse quite simple forms, and suddenly you get this crane with springs.
00:19:52.240 --> 00:20:04.079
I mean, it was just such a weird product that has gone on to become much loved, I think, in because it's so sort of human and anthropomorphic and it's it has a personality.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:19.519
But to your point earlier, this is not based on the human arm, it's based on pure um mathematical principles, which I think for him he would have probably found it hard for people to say it was based on the arm because it to him it it's not it's it's mechanical.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:25.680
In your book, Springlight, his son is interviewed and it is very keen to stress, it has nothing to do with the human arm.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:32.319
Yeah, and I think that is you know, it wasn't looking at the human arm and saying we've got to mirror that, which is probably how a designer would think.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:38.240
This came from the suspension, the science, and the product, the eureka moment came from that.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:47.759
This was not invented to become a light, it just became like a a post feature that you could oh we can use it as a light, flexible light.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:48.799
That's how it was designed.
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:56.079
And am I correct in saying that initially Karwadine saw it as a as a working lamp, it wasn't meant for the home.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:01.119
It went through many iterations, even in its four-spring format.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:07.680
So it started life as the 1208, I think it was a black version, it had a chrome 1209, because it just went up.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.799
The companies had a numbering system for every product, so it just went up a number, whatever it was.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:27.200
Um, and it was used a lot for machinists' lights, so over you could position it over the the metal working, but also a lot in drawing offices um where you could reach far distances and dry the ink as well.
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.119
With the heat from the bulb, you could put the the shade right down.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:45.599
And you know, if you look back actually, these lights were all sold as energy-saving lights, you know, back in the 30s, because it basically when you put light right over what you need to, you only needed 25 watt bulbs.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.799
If you had it from the ceiling, you needed 100 watt bulbs.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:59.599
Um so it was a really effective way of if you put the light exactly where it's needed, and I think probably historically people would use angle poises a lot closer to the work.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.160
than people do today because the light bulbs have got far more efficient again.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.960
But yeah, it was far more industrial.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:18.640
And then, you know, you get on to the sort of 1227, which is the three-spring light, which was the more, you know, which was designed with George Cardi and Teres to be a more domestic version.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:26.720
I was always told because ladies would get their hair stuck in the top springs on the other thing, which is clearly not true at all.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.640
There were all sorts of reasons.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:29.359
It was a different time.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.680
It was a different time and it was it was designed for the ladies' boudoir and all this kind of stuff.
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:40.400
So a lot of the advertising is hilarious because I, you know, these are still quite mechanical things.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.200
But obviously now the aesthetic is a lot more industrial has pulled into the domestic world.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:57.599
So even a four-spring angle poise works in an interior now because it's the the barriers between industrial and domestic have kind of blended so much that it works.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:07.119
No, absolutely the 1227 and those initial lights according to the book that Jonathan Glancy wrote the notion was that anybody could afford this lamp.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.359
He uses the example of a bus driver could afford it.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:16.319
When these lamps first started life though, they they were very expensive items because they were very overengineered.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.319
So what you'll get is for example a an angle poise would be the same price as like a Burberry trench coat back when they first started.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:31.119
Then I think over time gradually price would be taken out of the product to to make it more affordable.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:39.440
It was it's which again is is different than how most product designs are done today because you do a product design then you don't change it.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:24:08.559
You know the angle poise evolves and is changed a little more like a motor car probably you know it it's sort of it was trying to you know and that's what happened I think a lot with the products they were just designed to make them cheaper and cheaper so you could um sell more you know and that's the kind of way it went for for many years with the design so you get plastic components coming in nylon components over time and some very strange stuff to be honest.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:15.279
I mean changing some areas of the lamp where you really shouldn't you know because it it starts to impact the function of it.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:39.119
So um and then the the 1227 I think was made for so long it was made all the up to nearly 1970s where clearly it would have looked very dated at that time and then they switched to the model 75 it's more of a fluted kind of shade shape where they realized they had to change the design because it was just so out of keeping with the interiors of the time.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:53.119
Yeah yeah I mean I guess on the on the question of of sales I guess one of the more intriguing elements of Anglepoise's history was the way that Terry's essentially handed the US market to a Scandinavian manufacturer.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:58.960
I mean it's it's a Luxo product that became Pixar's famous logo for example.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:00.480
How did that happen?
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:07.359
Well basically at the time the family was so I think fixated on you know making more springs.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:13.119
I think the company probably viewed themselves more as a component maker in in many ways.
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:26.799
And what I don't think they realized with the Angerpoise is that they created this whole new territory which really was around the task light because I think the this using springs is such an effective way of making a very flexible system.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.240
I mean you can do it with weights and things but it's very efficient.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:38.000
It's a very effective way and the Forespring today is probably the most copied domestic product in existence.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:45.680
I mean there's millions and millions of copies of the Forespring but I think at the time they just didn't see the opportunity.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:59.599
So they were contact I think Jacobson from Luxo saw some of these products on some machine tools that went over to Scandinavia and thought oh these are interesting quirky looking things I'd like those for the Scandinavian market.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.119
So Teres then licensed the design for him to do that.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:27.440
I think it was in 1936 or 38 and then he proceeded to say what likes to America now so they licensed the design for America which I think was just I think just short sighted at the time I think they had focus elsewhere and didn't see the potential shift I mean just as the company we made an incredible amount of exercise machine stuff.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:38.400
We were probably one of the first home exercise companies we built everything from rowing machines, chest expanders all the little grips for your wrist grips are all terries.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:46.799
So that they were just very innovative but sometimes maybe not making good business decisions.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:54.880
Hope you're enjoying the show this is to remind you that Material Matters London isn't far away.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:03.200
It runs from the 17th to the 20th of September at Space House which is on the outskirts of Cotton Garden so it's super super central.
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:24.960
We have a plethora of amazing exhibitors joining us this year ranging from major brands and organizations such as Angle Boys who you're listening to AHEC Europe and Axel Nobel manufacturers like Domus, Modus and Low Carbon Industrial and companies you might not know so much about including Chinese fashion labels Zuckzag and Philly Materials from Taiwan.
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:44.319
There are features from the likes of Priestman Good, the Material Way, the Wood Awards, the Only Natural Design Competition and Futures Lab, and of course designers and makers who are confounding our expectations when it comes to materials look out for the likes of Kinotech, Love Happy, Max Wills, Naughty Furniture and Wedge to name just a handful.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:51.839
Not only that, but there'll be a talks program too so it's going to be great and it's free for architects and designers but you must register.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:28:14.079
For more details go to our website materialmatters.design that's materialmatters.design So I think it's safe to say that the company had some ups and downs over the years which you've alluded to it survived the Second World War for example and made 93,000 angle poised lamps for military service.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:29.519
Barnes Wallace famously the inventor of the bouncing bomb he used one your father John asked you to come into the company at the turn of the century.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.240
What state was it in at that point?
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:40.559
Because Terry's had been bought some years earlier by ASC, an American company but John and his cousin Ray bought the rights to the lamp.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:29:01.119
Yeah I mean basically in that time they you know it it was the spring making wasn't it was getting really hard to make stuff so they sold the company I think my father worked for them for a while didn't like the up you know working for someone else so he bought back with Ray the lighting part the angle poise part and formed angle poise lighting.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:14.000
So that's what he he created and they did you know very well in the sort of um 80s period because you know there wasn't a lot of competition you know I'd say in the UK market not like there is is today.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:25.200
So and they made a lot in Redditch you know um and sold a lot to the kind of office wholesale catalogues and places like that and did did very well.
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:57.839
Then I think it got to the time where you know I was around and having the conversation it was getting much harder competition was right they were still making most of the stuff in Redditch still UK manufacturing um and I think my father had just you know was getting tired and thinking well it's time to time to call it a day but I know you're not interested because you've got your own career in the film industry and um you know I sort of went oh I don't know about that I was sort of a new challenge let's let's see what happens.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:02.319
So what was your background Simon because you you came from the film industry what were you doing there?
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:15.759
My background really is I studied art college I studied things like visual performance so I was very sort of artistic um and I then got into started and sort of doing adverts in video TV production.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:32.799
Then I got into tape to film so I worked a lot on adverts for cinemas sort of conversion then I got into visual effects um for film industry and worked on a lot of Bonn films uh Nutty Professor Mask of Zora I worked with some brilliant films with some brilliant people.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.720
Which Bonn movies were you uh involved with the one I did was The World Is Not Enough was the main one I sort of did.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:31:08.640
Rosenham era yeah his his era and I actually did the sequence where he puts on the x-ray glasses and everyone sort of goes see through and you can see the guns in the casino and that was my it it didn't get any better than that because then I had to work on a thing called the Jesus story which was Russian state wax model animation and they hadn't used gloves and the wax models were melting and we had to correct the whole thing which was the low point of my film career.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:21.920
So I went from the highs um but actually the team what it taught me was amazing sense of teamwork and you know that the people I worked with were brilliant and they went on to win an Oscar and a BAFTA for inception.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:33.839
So you know it really taught me a lot about how to behave how to respect the tea lady in in terms of filmmaking security guards all that sort of stuff it made me quite quite humble.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:32:01.119
So I was very creative and that's where I came in initially in Angerpoise was what can I do with the archive and looking at the past and um as my father got quite ill and I was suddenly sort of thrown into a role you know of running a business where I had no experience at all and um was completely out of my depth I think if I'm honest looking back but put a brave face on it when I was younger and sort of had a lot of energy.
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:52.400
I don't I don't think I could do it today I wouldn't have the energy but it was uh yeah a lovely opportunity and then you know I I read an article in the archive it was the Guardian style outsider I think from 1968 or 70s and it was written by a gentleman called Kenneth Grange who was asked about his favourite design of all time and he talked about the anger poi as being this minor miracle of balance and balance is a quality in life we don't appreciate as we should it appeals to young and old and I had that just moment where I stopped hairs in the back of the neck stood up and went this is it this guy understands what this lamp is what it means and I sought him out in London and the rest was history you know we'll talk about Kenneth in a minute but I want to concentrate on you for a bit longer.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:53.359
Yeah that's fine.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:59.759
It wasn't a given then that you'd work for the family firm had it always been in the back of your mind?
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:06.079
Um not really because I'm the I'm the youngest so you know the youngest has never really worked in the in the family business.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:12.720
So it was always the eldest and the youngest would have to sort of clear off and find their own career.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:32.079
So it never was really but I always loved the lamp I always felt sort of connected to it growing up because it was everywhere in my life and it is part of the the sort of landscape you know the British landscape we we sort of it's it's like the phone box or you know Concord or Spitfire.
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.559
They're all part well it's on stamps and stuff isn't it?
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:41.519
Yeah exactly so it's kind of important and I love that sense of how you can keep something going how you can keep it relevant.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:54.960
That's something I find very interested and I'm a very sort of proud person you know I think I loved this idea of of legacy and how you can build things for the future and you know so it appealed to me.
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:05.200
It also appealed to me because it's something physical and I'd come from films which were all digital you know we we were at the cutting edge of digital technology and we did the film stuff.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:06.880
It really was amazing tech.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:18.239
So it was nice to do something physical and you make with your hands and people appreciate in the way they can only appreciate you know physical objects.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:23.119
And when you arrived had the company left the Midlands for the South Coast?
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:35.199
No the the company was still based in Redditch and thus when we you know we had the tough decisions to make to make a lot of people redundant because it was just losing a lot of money.
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:54.480
You know just we're making you know a pound a light selling them in Argos it was just you know not sustainable you know very hard decisions um and I basically moved because I wanted to move down south I'd I'd sort of always been connected to the Isle of Wight and London and all of that sort of thing.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:58.079
So I moved it down and literally didn't take anyone with me.
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:09.599
It literally was we were starting from a we we call in the phrase we're the we're probably the oldest start up because I literally started with me and one person I recruited and we started from scratch.
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:15.199
The only thing I think we brought down was pretty much a test machine and a couple of items that was it.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:16.400
Was that tough?
00:35:16.480 --> 00:36:20.320
Because presumably there must have been people who'd worked for Angle Poise in Redditch for for decades and generations possibly it's incredibly hard I think that you had people for 29 years and you know it was uh it didn't go what down well in the press you know or anything else but you know businesses have to change you you have to to move on and we're at a point where we had no choice it was change or or just disappear you know it was um you know every business will teach you you know sell more of what you got to a to a wider audience you know we had the position where we we didn't have the right products and we didn't have the right customers so it was starting completely from scratch we also weren't leveraging the power of the brand and the name um and we weren't doing that through the design of the products so you know hence why you know the Kenneth connection was it's all about the product you know it doesn't matter how good your packaging is or your advertising if the product doesn't deliver you don't have a future as a business.
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:24.719
You know and that's the point people don't realize the product has to deliver.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:30.079
Did you know immediately when you walked into the company that you'd have to make seismic changes?
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:42.960
I mean did you know that before you walked in even yeah I think looking at it I could tell it had to change because I was I was coming at it from obviously a very creative background I was just coming straight out of films and going well we've got product placements.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.400
I mean we'd had product placements in Bonn films for years.
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:55.440
You know the angle poise has been used in Bonn films a little bit like the Astin has is it's a sort of it's a handshake and it and it goes in the film.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:18.559
So and actually the original 1227 is in the first well it's in golden eye when Q has been introduced to the the Aston Martin our lamps are in that shot you know and to me that is you can't get more iconic than that from a you know automotive kind of the nature of the design so yeah it it's absolutely essential that side.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:38:05.039
So you bring in Kenneth Grange as design director obviously one of the all-time great product designers behind the 125 intercity train Kenwood mixer Kodak in Sematic camera iteration of the London taxi parking meters parker pens you name it he's basically designed it interestingly his mother worked in a spring factory that's correct yeah so when I went to to find him out you know so I heard he was introducing um Alice Rawsthorne to the design museum um at the design council and he was doing the introduction and I went up to him at the end and said hello and we just like chatted for like three hours.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:38.239
I mean it was incredible um at which point he said yeah his his um mother worked in a spring you know worked Springs and you know Terry's was you know the Rolls Royce of Springs you know to to her and he actually said you know her long service award was literally a giant car spring that used to sit by the fireplace when they lived in home because you know Kenneth came from very humble northeast London beginnings um and his yeah mother made springs and his father was a policeman and um yeah so there was such a sort of connection there.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:39:04.159
But I think our sort of coming together was kind of for a reason because I think Kenneth had done so much design everything but his career was kind of like taking a bit of a mid mid-area I think where he'd done so much already with pentagram and and with all these designs it was kind of this perfect meeting of the two of us to sort of come together and and do something.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:08.880
Because he was far more than just a designer you know he was an integral part of the company.
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:18.159
Well what did he do for the company Simon well he what he he brought was just this incredible sense of um the the design mindset into the business.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:29.679
So getting us back to understanding how to make product how to design it how to build in safeguards in products so that's what he brought a kind of an understanding of mass production.
00:39:29.920 --> 00:40:10.880
He was an all-in all-out industrial designer so he really brought that understanding in a lot of commercial experience because co-founding pentagram you know the biggest design agency in the world you have to have very you know commercial sense so we were always very close and probably most designers just get paid royalties you know with Kenneth he would get a list of everyone we'd sold to just in case he knew someone or connected so we had a very open relationship and he was very involved in the workings of of the business for years because I needed his counsel and and support and we had a very sort of close relationship you know very close friendship.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:48.639
Can you see parallels between Carwardine and Grange I wonder I think George was just this phenomenal engineer which I think would probably his focus was so much on the brilliant engineering that he he probably wasn't someone that had to please people or be the centre of attention whereas I think if you look at someone like Kenneth he was the ultimate in how to to charm people and how to to to to lead people so you know Kenneth for example would have the ability he could draw to you so you'd be sitting with him and he suddenly started drawing upside down towards you.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:41:58.159
Oh wow so that's quite yeah so what that does is massively connect you George would never have done that what that would just be superfluous why would you do that and I think Kenneth had that ability and then if he was sort of he he did the Kodak stand for example and because he started off in a lot of stand designs and someone came up to him and said oh yeah nice stand what would you think about the cameras you know and he has the diplomacy not just to go well they're a bit crap or they're this he said well interesting you know it's this this and this and the person would you like to design a camera for us then I I'm head of Kodak UK that was kind of thinking and and the third one for me which I think is this brilliant example of how he would think was for Ken Wood when he first met him he said well can you design a uh you know a mixer food mixer but you've got a week to build a model and do it um so he said yeah I can do that so what he did was build half a model and then put a mirror behind it to reflect the other half and it was that fact that impressed Ken Wood was that ability to think laterally and outside the box which is why he worked with Kenwood for years.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:34.000
It was that sort of out of the box thinking which I think would have been very different from George would be very much the engineering the science that the going deeper and deeper whereas Kenneth would be more engaging you know Kenneth personally also he had that ability to make you f feel like you were the most important person in the room but he did it in a way to never make you um revere you know revere him he would never let you put him on a pedestal because he would just do silly things with you.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:53.679
He was always a joker so the amount of photographs I've had where he's blowing kisses at me trying to make me laugh in front of the camera I mean is ridiculous over the years and leaning over his coffin bookcase and he he was just you know this brilliant fun you know northeast London man o boy you know he was just brilliant.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:43:00.719
We ought to for listeners who maybe don't know coffin bookcase probably deserves a little bit of explanation.
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:07.679
Yeah if you kind of imagine a a coffin and a bookcase together but the the bookcase is shaped more like a mummy.
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:27.920
So if you imagine a mummy case but then you've got shelves in it he had his books in it and the idea was he would uh be ultimately buried in it but um yeah that that never never happened because April his lovely wife saw sense in the end to say no this is not going to happen this is getting a bit ridiculous.
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:36.320
I interviewed him towards the back end of his life and he was remarkably sharp and uh utterly utterly utterly charming.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:48.960
I mean one of the things you did as well as working with Kenneth was collaborate with the likes of Margaret Howell in two thousand and three, then Paul Smith, both of whom obviously best known for their work in the fashion world.
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:52.239
Why those two and what did they bring to the brand?
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:59.840
Well I think um the first one we covered was Margaret Howell who we've collaborated pretty much from the start from I think two thousand and three.
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:08.320
And that was just I had a pretty good friend of mine called Spencer Wallace who did print work and he just said, Look, we work with Margaret Howell.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.199
I think you should go and have a chat with Joe Barber.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:14.320
And I went in and just we just got on really well.
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:21.920
And you look at the and again, I think the connection for me was saying, How do we link this product into the fashion industry?
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:26.079
Because then what you're doing is positioning it differently.
00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:29.679
You're you know, you're increasing the perceived perceived value of the product.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:34.320
And obviously for her, the whole mid-century modern look fits.
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.199
And that's also think what's quite interesting about the Angle Poise it can take on different periods.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:46.719
It it isn't sort of a set date, it kind of evolves and it tells the story of the changes in fashion.
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:52.079
Um, but we got on incredibly well, and that was you know, they were really kind to us.
00:44:52.239 --> 00:45:11.840
Richard around the company was just a lovely, lovely man who was you know so kind to us and really helped me because I was very wet under, you know, I was I was very sort of inexperienced at the time, but they just wanted to almost see the lamp be successful because they get that sort of thing as part of the British landscape, and they wanted to see it endure.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:13.760
So that happened.
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:18.719
And then the Paul Smith thing was later, that's coming to 10, 10 years, I think.
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:27.519
Um that happened because I saw he was having an exhibition at the um design museum, and I thought, great, let's let's do something with Paul.
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:31.920
Um, didn't get anywhere, you know, absolutely nowhere.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.679
And I spoke to Kenneth, I said, Look, Kenneth, can you speak to to Paul?
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:37.519
And he said, Yeah, I know Paul, I'll have a chat.
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:44.159
So the two sirs, because he he'd be knighted by then, went off and said, Um, yeah, let's come together, and they met.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:45.920
And I was thinking, how do they do that?
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.679
Is there some special handshake?
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.800
And it's not, it's like, hi Kenneth, hi Paul.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:46:23.280
Um, and Paul was just incredibly commercial, just that ability within a minute to go, well, we can put this colour with this colour with this colour, and he ended up with this very brilliant colour by component approach, which tells the stripe story, but in components, and I think it was a really, really clever piece of design, and and a great example of you know, for me, always important collaboration, two plus two equals five, you know, in uh in the radio head sense of it, is that's really important.
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:30.239
Otherwise, you're just cashing in and you're doing it to make money, not to build value, and those are two different things.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:38.400
Because when you have an iconic design, you've got to keep building value in it and be very bold with it and confident with it.
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:44.960
If you're hesitant, you tend to weaken what you do, so you've got to be bold.
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:49.760
And that's been you know, it's a very, very strong collaboration.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:54.639
And you also worked with Ili Kishimoto, a rather different generation of designer.
00:46:54.800 --> 00:47:02.079
I mean, it's interesting, I think, because for this anniversary, you've gone down a very different route working with students.
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:03.760
That's deliberate, presumably.
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.519
Yeah, I think maybe it's because I'm getting a bit older and I've got young kids.
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:16.559
Well, they're not saying young and they're getting over my son's just done his A levels, but I'm going through a bit of a time of really trying to support, you know, the grassroots.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:25.280
And I think there's there's a part for me as a custodian that I feel it's it it's a moral obligation to me to support the grassroots of an industry.
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:33.519
So I've always kind of done it, you know, and I enjoy the time of young, talented people because they bring a fresh outlook.
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:38.800
And I think that's important because when you you know, a 90th celebration, you could just do it.
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:43.280
It's all about looking back and history, and that's a very dangerous game to play.
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:49.440
So for me, the springboard of looking back 90 years is going, right, how do we look forward 90 years?
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:53.039
So that's what this sort of student work is.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:00.880
Um, is to and to really give them a platform to showcase their work in a professional environment at material matters, you know.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:09.519
This isn't new designers, you know, this is taking them to somewhere that's not a student show, it's a professional show, because these are professional young people, in my view.
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:18.719
I don't see them as students, I see them as talented young people who deserve to be given the opportunity to show their talents and abilities.
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:20.159
That's it's quite simple, really.
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:23.519
It's um and that's just pure joy for me.
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:35.360
Um and that's what if all businesses gave back a little bit, you know, the world will be a better place for it, and you know, you know, talent can come through the system, you know, which is what we need.
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:38.559
We need these people to come through and to be given opportunities.
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:42.400
And over recent years, you've developed a manifesto.
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:46.480
I mean, you buy an angle poise nowadays and it's guaranteed for life.
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:50.880
The importance of repair is a vital strand of your strategy.
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:51.199
Yeah.
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:52.639
Why the manifesto?
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:59.760
Well, it's because we did some work around that, but repair has always been at the heart of everything we've done with Angle Poise.
00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:10.719
So um, all the way back to the old factory, there was a gentleman called Alf Jenkman who it was always ask Alf if he wanted something repairing was the statement.
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:17.280
And there's a cabinet that was Alf's cabinet that I found in my father's garage, I think in his workshop 10 years ago.
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:18.320
And I said, What's that?
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:25.840
And it had all the numbers painted very badly on the different drawers, and in there all the spare parts for all products.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:30.960
Um, so this cabinet has become a symbol for us of repair and longevity.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:36.480
Um, and it's now Ask Laws because Laws has now taken over this mantle of repairing.
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:43.360
And we're pretty much un up to we have rewired and repaired, I think, 500 products in the last couple of years.
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.079
And when people look at that, they think, oh, it's just 500 products.
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:48.400
It's like, no, but they're individually sent back.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:55.760
These are people's loves of their lives, they're passed down from you know, father to son, mother to daughter.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:59.760
These are important things that you can't lose.
00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:05.119
You know, it's you you're taking on something here that's you've got to be very careful with.
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:08.559
You know, you can't just send a replacement, they're irreplaceable.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.440
Um, so repair's always been at the heart.
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:13.679
We just haven't formalized it.
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:18.639
And we've now created spares all the way back to 70-year-old products.
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:24.159
We've even created replacement shades for the original four springs we've just done.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:27.440
Um, because we I can't stand seeing them go to landfill.
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:33.599
I I literally have been known to climb into skips and get them out because I find it too upsetting.
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:35.920
You know, it it generally hurts me.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:41.280
Um because I you know, when we I go and see a lamp in someone's house, I still think it's my lamp.
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:42.400
It's it's sort of bizarre.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:44.800
And I've been told, well, you've sold it, it's not your lamp.
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:56.800
But yeah, but I still feel very connected to it because you know it's sort of it's a useful product that should endure, that that um should be enjoyed.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:04.880
And I think if you look at the way we consume, and you know, we've fallen out of love with the things that are useful for us.
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:11.360
Um because I think as well, there's so many objects today that don't solve a problem and are useless.
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:22.000
And actually, you know, we kind of do it to try and make ourselves feel better about ourselves because I think you know it it's kind of you know what I call the head and it's treadmill.
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:33.599
You know, I think people try and get this sense of you know, buy a new car or whatever it is to feel better about themselves, but actually over a period of time you just go back to the normal treadmill line and it hasn't made you feel better.
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:36.400
If anything, it's just made you feel unhappier.
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:44.639
So, you know, good products lasting that you can repair, I think that's what people want really moving forwards.
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:46.800
I think people are sad when they can't repair things.
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:48.079
I think it it's upsetting.
00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:55.039
Absolutely, and it's got harder and harder to certainly from my childhood to now, it's harder and harder to find ways to repair things.
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:57.519
But it must have changed the company, hasn't it?
00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:02.480
You must have more people repairing, making parts than you used to before this lifetime guarantee.
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:03.119
Oh, yeah.
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:21.840
Across the company we've had a whole shift, whether it's in plastic packaging and removing plastics, you know, becoming a B Corp as well, which is you know, benefit corporation and joining that movement, which to me was always less about the badge, but more about the people you meet in other companies.
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:26.639
Because, you know, there's a community out there of people that do really care.
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:37.039
And for me, it it's it's sort of just coming together to to solve things in small ways, um, because that's what we need to do, you know.
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.079
And yeah, and I think the company really gets it.
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:46.719
I mean, all the people that work for me love all this, they love all the stories that come back of this product's being mended, and they say it means so much to me.
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:48.880
I'm passing it on to my son or daughter.
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.039
It makes you feel good, you know.
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:59.199
And yes, they're ananim objects, but some people call them names, they have names for them, they name their lamps, they're very important to them.
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:08.960
Um, so and and I love the fact, you know, brands and successful brands and long-term brands don't just exist by selling the next thing.
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:12.559
Of course, we have to have that as part of what we do.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:25.199
But also, the the longer we can keep old products going for, the stronger it is for our brand and the you know, the the more connected we are in with the people we serve, and that's important.
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:33.760
Earlier on, and indeed in that TED talk that I referred to earlier, you described yourself as a custodian rather than an owner.
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:35.760
What's the difference between the two?
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:43.840
To me, it's a big difference because to me a custodian is somebody that it's gonna be like in the words of the all blacks, it's um leaving the shirt in a better place.
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:55.840
That's fundamental to them as a team, or seeing, you know, planting trees you you don't see grow into full trees, or starting, you know, you start to build cathedrals that won't be finished for 250 years.
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:00.400
It it's a way of leaving things in a better place than you found them.
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:19.039
And that to me is you know, it's putting good into the world, it's paying forwards, it's it's just doing things for the right reasons, and it's thinking about things of not financial value but value, that then to me becomes values and purpose, which is the real driver of any good business.
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:29.679
So, but someone that's an owner to me is someone it's it it's very much about possession, it's about taking away, it's about not giving back, it's about controlling.
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:41.199
And you kind of reflect on those worlds and look at the world today, you know, a lot of the world is about ownership and not custodian because you can't really own anything anyway, can you?
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:43.039
What what can we actually own?
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:48.320
We can't take anything with us, we can't we don't really own the planet or anything on it.
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:54.559
So let's just work with it and um just be more human.
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:01.280
I think that's that's the part for me is just um yeah, find the people you want to work with and and do interesting things together.
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:08.079
So as a custodian, Simon, your son, you're just mentioning just on his A levels, will he be joining the company?
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:08.800
I don't know.
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:11.760
I think that's uh a question he's gonna work out.
00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:17.679
Interestingly, he's done his A levels were in um you did um graphic design, product design, and business.
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:20.639
So there's a kind of kind of a thing there.
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:29.280
But but I have to say, for me, you know, I went off and did my own career, and I think that's so important to go and do something.
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:35.360
If I'd have joined the family business straight off the bat out of university, I think it'd have been hard.
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:42.079
But because I've chosen to do it, it it's I've really, you know, I I never regretted any of it at all.
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:51.840
The good, the good and the bad, because there's you know there's bad days in it, there's tough times and there's good times, but you have to have both of those things to make it meaningful and purposeful.
00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:53.840
Anything of value is like that.
00:55:54.000 --> 00:56:01.199
It's hard, it has very there's high barriers to entry, there's big dips to anything that's worthwhile.
00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:03.519
If it's easy, it's not worthwhile.
00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:06.719
You know, it's kind of it's kind of boring, and everyone will be doing it.
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.400
So that's what's lovely about this is always challenging yourself.
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:11.199
I think that's important.
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:13.760
We're coming to the end of our time, sadly.
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.159
So we're into that final question.
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:20.880
You have Material Matters London coming up with the 90th anniversary.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.960
Talked a lot about thinking about the future in a nutshell.
00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:26.880
What's next for angle poise?
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:36.239
Well, I think obviously I've talked a lot about this moment of 90th of just pausing and celebrating, and I think that's a really important part.
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:44.079
We've also yeah, lost, you know, Kenneth passed away last year, you know, 95 years old.
00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:48.239
He was working, I think a couple of weeks before he passed away, he was still working on products.
00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:55.920
So we still have products we haven't launched of his that we will still honour and and do because that's that's what's important.
00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:08.559
But for me, so much of my thinking now is around uh materials and systems, the two areas I'm totally focused on because those are the things that will change things.
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:31.519
Um most of the great designs have already been designed, it's just how we make them last longer, have more longevity, have a purpose, um and just you know, really start to work together to solve the huge issues because at the end of the day, they're design issues and ready to be solved.
00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:57.599
And I I'm very positive about the future because there's a real opportunity here for for this community community I'm part of, the whole design industry, to actually say, you know, let's stop just designing the next fancy-looking thing for the front page of a magazine and actually let's design something for 150 years ahead, for unborn generations, or because what we're doing now will influence them in 150 years.
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:03.039
So let's start solving the problems and making decisions based on those criteria.
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:03.920
Very good.
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:06.079
So the future is materials and systems.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:07.360
Materials and systems for me.
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:08.239
Completely agree.
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:08.559
Yeah.
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:10.559
Simon, thank you so much for your time.
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:11.519
Thoroughly enjoyed that.
00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:12.320
Thanks, Carol.
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:13.280
Loved it.
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:20.079
To find out more about Simon and Anglepoise, go to anglepoise.com.
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:33.679
You can go to our website, materialmatters.design, to hear other podcasts I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to find out all about Material Matters London, which runs from the 17th to the 20th of September at Space House.
00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:40.719
For the latest news and to see who's exhibiting, go to our Instagram page, which is also materialmatters.design.
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:46.559
And remember, the fair is free for architects and designers, but you must register in advance.
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:47.840
One more thing.
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:56.320
It would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters.
00:58:56.480 --> 00:59:05.840
For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world.
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:12.400
Material Matters is a completely independent concern, and any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated.
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:20.800
Ultimately, you'll be helping to tape the message, the importance of materials, skill, craft, and design to a whole new audience.
00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:22.960
Thanks very much for listening.