Daniel Taylor: Do want to get the best out of people without losing the human side of leadership? Do you want grounded, practical, and a thought-provoking take on AI neurodivergence and modern management? Then this is a great episode to listen to. In today's episode of Managing Potential, I speak with Erica Farmer, human AI collaboration expert, keynote speaker, and author about how leaders can use AI more practically, confidently, and more importantly, humanely. Erika shares how her own experience in corporate leadership, burnout, and discovering her own neurodivergence shaped the way she now thinks about management, communication, and technology. We explore why so many people feel fear around AI, how leaders can reduce that fear by being clearer and more explicit, and why asking the right questions are such a powerful first step. Erica also explains the idea of an AI dividend, the personal benefit AI can bring from saving time and reducing stress to creating more headspace for family, health, and better decision-making. This conversation is especially valuable for managers, HR leaders, and frankly anyone trying to get the best out of people without losing the human side of leadership. So if you want a grounded, practical, and thought-provoking take, then keep listening and enjoy today's episode. Welcome to Managing Potential, the podcast where we go behind the scenes with the world's most impactful leaders. Each week we sit down with seasoned managers to deconstruct their greatest breakthroughs, their toughest challenges, and the life lessons they've gathered along the way. So if you're looking to turn talent into performance, you're in the right place. Hi, I'm Daniel Taylor, a coach and management and leadership developer. And this week I'm joined by Erica Farmer, who is an human AI collaboration expert and tech fluency. Keynote speaker. Erica helps organizations identify their AI dividend through practical implementation strategies that balance technological efficiency with human creativity. And Erica is the author of AI for human people professionals. Love the book there. Thank you. And Erica, welcome to the podcast.
Erica Farmer: Thank you so much Dan for having me, I really appreciate it and I can't not take an opportunity just to flash the book when somebody talks about it.
Daniel Taylor: It has to be done. I I would bit it feel shortchanged if not. So can you tell me a bit more about you and what you do today? Over to you.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, absolutely. So my background's 25 years corporate L &D with some of the UK's largest brands. So I've had some amazing experiences with British Gas, LV, Specsavers, Virgin, a few other organizations. And for the last seven years, I've been running my own businesses, particularly around learning technologies, virtual learning, within the last five years, generative AI. And the last year, I've set up my speaking business. And probably since 22, since ChatGP came to market, I've been working with clients to get their people really engaged and understanding their AI dividend, right, which is a recent phrase that I've trademarked, to really get people to understand that personal benefit in working with AI, break it down, make it really practical and impactful for organizations.
Daniel Taylor: And I I think AI for a lot of people is such a a massive learning curve but also a huge opportunity and can be maybe a little bit scary as well. So it's it's great to have someone that they can turn to such as yourself.
Erica Farmer: That's why I wrote the book, to be honest, because we were all on this journey in very different places, right? And we still are, like four years later. If we take 22 as the starting line for Gen. AI, I know a lot of people do, although we know the term's been around a lot longer. There was nothing that really practically gave people, and we were just briefly talking off camera around the very kind Michelle Parry Slater. Michelle calls my book a blueprint for HR. like a step-by-step operations manual. And I was blogging and vlogging and reading a bunch of stuff, but there wasn't that really practical element of how do I feel about AI? What do I need to do in my organization? How do I support my stakeholders? And therefore, how do we break down each part of the employee life cycle so we can get some real practical and emotional people benefits out of partnering with this technology that you're right, a lot of people still have a lot of fear about. Yeah, it's interesting times, no doubt we're going to delve into some of that as part of this as well.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. so start with then the first question is what sort of manager were you, you know, when you're looking back as a leader?
Erica Farmer: Yeah, I look back at my time. So I was, you know, an L &D manager, L &D partner, head of L &D for most of my roles, head of apprenticeships. And I look back now and think, I think a few things. I think I could have been a lot more people focused than what I was. I was very ambitious. I was very business focused. I was very impact focused, which is what we always say L &D should be. But If I'm really honest and reflective, that was probably at the detriment of some of my people and how they felt about things. I had two major roles as head of L &D where I had a large team reporting in to me with various leads and then I would report in to the directorships and the miners as well, or sometimes to the board. And I just remember one role in particular when I was at Virgin, I probably lasted about 18 months because I just absolutely burned out. The requirement of that role was so much for me that I just really struggled with it. And I know particularly why now, I literally was diagnosed with level one autism yesterday, hot off the press through Right to Choose and the NHS. And my ADHD diagnosis came
Daniel Taylor: Wow.
Erica Farmer: about two months ago. And I always felt different in corporate. always, you'll hear neurodivergent people talk about being the black sheep, the round hole in the square, round peg in the square hole. And that's exactly what my experience was. So somebody who very much kind of saw things very logically was good at the big picture, good at the detail, but not perhaps so good at the people element of that and struggled to empathize and understand and read emotions. You know, I was probably 50 % effective as a leader because of that. And I'm not blaming my neurodivergence on being a crap manager. I just think that I just wish I knew what I knew now, if that makes sense from that perspective. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. So looking back at that time, if there was somebody working with you, what could they have done almost? Or is there any support you could have had looking back at that point? Maybe if someone's l listening now or watching, going, I I'm seeing those traits in someone I'm working with and they they don't have a diagnosis and it's not maybe on their radar, but what what could have changed?
Erica Farmer: Yeah. I think nobody ever asked me, and I always ask my team this, particularly when we met for the first time or I had a new team report in for me, what can I do to make sure we can work really well together? That was the first important question for me with my team. I don't ever remember anybody asking me that question. Like, how can we get the best out of each other or is there any... adjustments, for example, that I can do in my communication and my style that will get the best out of you, for example, or make you feel more comfortable or safe. Because we all know people who feel comfortable, psychologically safe, confident, competent, will be the people that produce best results for you are more motivated. I had to find all that stuff out myself with a brain that isn't really wired for the neurotypical world that we live in. And that's why I, part of the reason why I love AI so much, I always say I wish generative AI was a thing when I was a leader and manager, because it helps me make sense out of the world. It helps me translate people's behaviours. It helps me deep dive and go down the rabbit hole about things I'm really interested in, which gives me my dopamine hit, which makes me more resilient and flexible to be with other people. So getting my needs met so I can then put your oxygen mask on before you're helping others, right? I was just not putting my oxygen mask on, particularly in corporate. And I do carry those wounds, which I think a lot of neurodivergent people probably do, and neurotypical people. When you've just got a senior team around you or a manager that just doesn't get it and just doesn't understand why you communicate the way that you do. And that's quite tricky in corporate where you can't really read between the lines and infer the politics of what's going on. So I've got so much learning now that I look back on that I do build into my AI as a thinking partner. And I do give it the context around, you know, some of the stuff that I felt and the way I behave now and the things that I need to understand in terms of my blind spots, whether that's with audiences or clients or working with my business partner, Haley, or whatever that might be. So I feel now we have much better understanding around neurodivergence and needs. So I'd like to think people who are neurodivergent are more likely to have a conversation around what they do need, but also AI can support that either individually as a coach or a thinking partner or help managers to understand more about those neurodevelopmental conditions.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic. And I think that that that question was you know how can you get the best out of me and get the best out of each other is such a a valid one and it's one that I use a lot when I'm I'm working with consultants or with the business. It's like particularly with new com new relationships, it's just really understanding how each other ticks is so so impressive. yeah, so really w w would take that as a suggestion that we we all take away.
Erica Farmer: Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: With this point around sort of development and and y you've clearly mentioned about AI, but how do you develop or continue to develop your your potential but also of that around you, you know, those people around you?
Erica Farmer: Yeah, so a lot of what I do is the public speaking, the consulting, the workshops, etc. And I, because I'm so interested in what I do, I like to share that with people. I like to diagnose it, digest it, assimilate it. The L &D background naturally positions it as skills and a way to help people be more confident practically with using AI. So I think I'm lucky to have that mindset that we're always learning, learning agility, what are we putting down to pick up and applying record time? I am a natural skeptic, which I think is a strength because that is part of critical thinking. I do question a lot of things. That's probably the level one autism in me is quite as well. So I think I'm lucky because I'm in a place and I've worked very hard for this where You know what the Japanese call Ikigai, right? That kind of Venn diagram of what you love doing versus what people need versus what you can get paid for. And there's like purpose in the middle. I find that I found my Ikigai and my neurodiversity plays a strength in all of that, as opposed to something that holds me back. in corporate, if I look back now, it very much held me back, particularly around politics and company BS. corporate HR functions that talked about kicking the tires and getting ducks in a row and would infer that I had to do certain tasks and I had no idea that we even had that conversation, right? So I think AI can help from a lot of reasons and the requirement to be so specific with AI when you are prompting and delegating with it, I think is a really good thing for people to learn good management skills as well. Being clear about the outcome you want from your people. understand how to give feedback and get the best out of them, not assume that they fully understand what it is that you get from them. And that synergy around great management conversation and great prompting and AI delegation as a digital colleague, I think is phenomenal. And that's been a real light bulb moment for me. So I try and get people to really understand the benefits of those kind of things. And also, Asking the question like you've just said, what else do need from me to make sure you're going to be your best or you can deliver this project to its best? You know, we teach that is what we call a killer question when we're prompting. You ask the AI if you've given everything you need it and it always comes back with a load of questions because you've assumed a load of stuff. That's great learning for leaders and managers, particularly around neurodivergency, but for everybody that they're looking after as well.
Daniel Taylor: That's quite a cool reflection, particularly around in a prompting. You know, if if you're struggling on writing that prompt, is that sort of giving you a hint that you know is there a communication barrier, or yeah, and I think if it's linking the AI prompts back to being as a manager, that that's you know really interesting. And one of the things that stood out to me when I saw you as a speaker was that whole aspect of being able to communicate a very difficult, very emotive topic really clearly and with some really clear steps that we could all take away and I think that's that's something that I took away from seeing you at the the festival of work and I know you the there's lots of speaking gigs you've done videos and all this and I would I would I would recommend people engage with you more on that and I I think actually I was is there something that you could give as a suggestion for f for people watching and listening today, in terms of AI and the way forward, that's almost that that sort of quick win about what a manager can do now or a leader can do now. That that's their their their first task.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I'll start with the same thing every time. Ask yourself, how do you feel about it and why? Because so many managers and HR and L &D are on this kind of automation train where they've been told by the CEO or the C-suite that we have to adopt AI. Perhaps the leadership haven't been explicit clear why we're adopting AI, what kind of problem we're trying to solve, and whether that's going to impact people's jobs and futures and... Because whether it is or it isn't, think managers and leaders still need to be explicit around that. Because if they're not explicit around that, people fill in the gaps because that's what we do, know, self-preservation and we catastrophize and that stuff. So the first piece is why do we feel about it and why? What do we feel about it and why? And explore that. Because this isn't just another piece of technology. This is closer to intelligence in the way that it operates. So it makes us feel weird. So we need to work that through.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Erica Farmer: And then understand our AI dividend. What is that personal incremental benefit that we all have in making our personal life just that little bit easier with collaborating with something like AI? And that could be giving yourself more headspace because you're not trying to hold onto the detail all the time, which I see HR do all the time. You can automate, get your A to I tools, doing a bunch of stuff, foundational, drafts, whatever it might be. That enables you to do more of the high level thinking and the stuff that adds value to stakeholders or to your family, your husband, your wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, kids, whatever it might be. For me, my AI dividend is having, you know, AI do parts of my business like researching, which means I can look after my mental and physical health a lot more. have fibromyalgia, which means I can't just work constantly. My back shoes just die sometimes and I can't take a pill for it. So my AI dividend is the ability just to slob out on the couch in front of Star Trek and look after my energy. For some people, it's wellbeing, some people it's time. It means they can do the school run every day. So really identifying what that is. How do we practice having that difficult conversation? How do I role play that with the AI so I feel more comfortable and confident when I go to do it the first time and I don't fluff it, for example. Confidence is an AI dividend. purpose and passion is to get people to think about all of that in a real selfish, personal way. And if more organisations did that, if more leaders did that, they unlock the what's in it for me, the with them, the intrinsic motivation, they would find they would get less resistance around using AI in people's roles because all people are thinking about is why am going to learn it if it's going to take my job because you haven't told me it's not going to take my job. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: Which in turn takes away some of that fear because you you're bit more comfortable with it and yeah. And asking that that so what question is one that I use an awful lot. It's or, you know, is that why, why? It's if you keep asking that you get closer to the actual issue, and and then the as you mentioned, the purpose of the fantastic point. That does lead me on to the next question then, which was what was your biggest learning experience as a manager?
Erica Farmer: My biggest learning experience as a manager was people don't always do what you tell them to do. And when you're a bright young thing and you're maybe high will, low skill at that point, but there's lots of ambition and you want to do well and you want people to think you're great.
Daniel Taylor: If only.
Erica Farmer: You know, there's times where, certainly for me, I was naive to think that if I asked my team to do something, it would get done and get done to the level that I expected it to do. Actually, we're walking, talking variables. know, we all are like Shrek says, we're like onions, right? We've got all these layers around us. And, you know, being someone who's very literal, if my manager asked me to do something, I would go off and do it because that was the instruction I took and that's what I did in my job. So you always see it through your own lens rather than the lenses of other people. And it took me quite a long time to try and understand that. And that was a real learnt behaviour for me around like, why would, I've asked you, you think, why would you not, why would you not just go and do it? It's what your managers ask you to do. And that's how you keep your manager happy. You do what they ask you to do. So why, that's what you get paid for. That's why you've got a job. And I know that's very black and white. But that's genuinely how I felt as one of my first big L &D manager roles. And I had a small team, but two people in particular had very complex backgrounds, a lot of personal stuff going on, large families, complicated relationships in particular, one person. And it all very much got in the way of what he was doing from my perspective. And I found that particularly difficult to... to work with and to deal with. And unfortunately, we did have to go down disciplinary routes and stuff like that, because it just got to the point where it was affecting his job too much, particularly around timekeeping, quality of delivery, et cetera. And you know what it's like when you're running an L &D function, particularly with trainers, those people are highly visible in front of your stakeholders. So it doesn't take a lot for feedback to start coming through to the L &D manager around how people are in front of an audience, for example. So yeah, that was massive learns for me, I'd say.
Daniel Taylor: So what I'm taking from this, the the there is this sort of key point about really getting to understand one yourself as a as a manager and what what where your strengths are or what those strengths are, trying to lean into that much more if possible. So you are much more comfortable and you're getting the best out the role. But also really getting to understand the business but also the individuals that you're working with and really knowing
Erica Farmer: Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: where their strengths are, what w what makes them tick and and by having all of that I'm sensing you've got a better relationship, you're happier, but also y the organisation is getting more out of you in a in a positive way, you know, y y you you're be being able to really shine and and be successful.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I probably did that the hard way, to be honest. I think some people are more natural people managers. They're more intuitive, they're more empathetic. But for some reason, we all go through that kind of, I want to be a manager, I want more, I'm more ambitious, or I want a higher salary, for example, I don't particularly want to manage people. And I know people in this position.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah.
Erica Farmer: And I think organisations sometimes have more of an obligation to really get to the people that genuinely want to manage people and not the person that's just been in the job the longest, for example, or who's more technical or who shouts the loudest. think they're probably, again, if I knew what I knew now, right, back then, I was exhausted managing people because I found it quite difficult. It didn't play to my strengths. But I thought that was what I needed to do to get up the greasy pole. You know, that was the only way to do that. And some of the best managers I knew just loved being with people and just loved having conversations and coaching and just really got excited about delivering through their people and serving their people rather than that person who was kind of trying to drag everybody along from the front. And at times that was me.
Daniel Taylor: So w if you could give some advice to a new manager or even yourself now looking back, what would it be?
Erica Farmer: Ask yourself what sets your soul alight. Now I can answer that very clearly. What I do right now sets my soul alight. I love it. It doesn't feel like work. And I know that there's lots of cliches around, know, if it doesn't feel like work, then that's the key. And, you know, you'll never do a day's work in your life and all that kind of stuff. But what is it that makes you happy? What is it that, you know, motivates you? Is it working with other people and getting the best out of them? Or is it... You know, being an individual contributor, for example, you know, and meeting your needs for ambition and success and progress that way. There's nothing wrong with any of those choices. The thing that I think I did too long was probably try and spend time looking after everybody. using my non-preferred hand for want of another analogy, right? I'm right-handed and I felt like I was using my left hand for everything at that point. And I don't think I would want to go back to managing people now because it doesn't play to my strengths. I like inspiring people and working with people, but I think you've got to be a certain kind of person to genuinely deliver through people and enjoy doing that.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah.
Erica Farmer: And it's kind of understanding whether that's your calling or not, really, because we all remember those amazing managers who gave us those opportunities or that amazing teacher, right, at school. remember Mrs. Harris in PE. That's why I went and did sports sciences a degree. She was inspirational. So but unfortunately, we always remember those poor managers. I can remember, you know, the manager I had. And unfortunately, I got to a point when I had to leave the organization because I just couldn't. I couldn't breathe under her, you know, metaphorically. So, and I didn't want to leave that organisation. And I did because that was how I only felt that was the only option, really. So that was a long time ago. And again, I could have done things very, very differently to what I did. And I was with that organisation for quite a long time, which was a shame because I knew a lot of people. But, you know. You have to make decisions that are right for you in the moment at that time and be accountable and responsible for the decisions that you make because no one's coming to save you. No one's coming to make it better. There's no knight in shining armor, you know, to unpick the things that you've decided to do. It's all about your decisions and, you know, some of them will be right and some of them won't be right. And that's life. That went very philosophical then, didn't it?
Daniel Taylor: no. very good point. And it I always it it does make me wonder the amount of times that I guess organizations as you you go more senior, one of the side effects is you get a team or that team gets bigger and you go, Well, Ashley is that right? You know, it I think sometimes it's needed, but also you know, is that the direct output that, you know, for a role and you but you must have a team because it's not always the the right approach and yeah, I I think there is s some reflection there needed. But and and what I I love w with what you were saying there is taking that time to really reflect on, you know, is this working for me and if not, why not? And, you know, reaching out and getting the support if needed, you know, whether that be a coach or a mentor or or whatever else it might be, just to help you navigate those that quite tough
Erica Farmer: Hmm.
Daniel Taylor: process you're going through or you know actually do you just need to leave that organisation, leave that role, leave that that manager. And when you said there around you know, you just needed to be able to breathe, that that's to me it it's so visual. I can I can almost feel and be in that role with you of I've known how what the impact of that that that relationship could have been. So it is really important to take that time out and and do something a bit different if possible.
Erica Farmer: Hmm. Mm. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And people are scared of that, right? People are like, I can't leave this job because of this, or I've been here for so long, it's comfortable. Or I have to travel a little bit further for an opportunity down the road. But they will sacrifice mental health, happiness, motivation. I mean, when I was at British Gas, I remember speaking to a lady who hated her job, but the maternity rights were so good and she wanted to have a baby. She stayed there.
Daniel Taylor: yeah.
Erica Farmer: And I remember thinking, for me, that's crazy. But people make decisions through different lenses and different morals and different values, and that was obviously very important to her. But what detriment was that having on her trying to get pregnant and the stress of the job and her mental health? So it's funny what we think we have to sacrifice sometimes for other things.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. sometimes getting that outside view can can help. Because if it if it's right and it if it's working, then great. You know, and there's no right way for anyone. but if you are struggling, please reach out. That that's one of the reasons why personally I love coaching so much. And it it really ticks my box, makes me really happy where I can really help somebody to navigate something that they've maybe struggled for a long time and that they just can't.
Erica Farmer: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: navigate that that path in whichever way. So for me coaching really works, but it may not work for someone else. So it's you know whatever works, which I was literally about to say a line from the next question. So I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna lead in with a question that was from Michelle Parry Slater who you've you've mentioned and her question links to Nancy Klein's thinking partnership and it is what do you think Feel and want to say.
Erica Farmer: Thank you, Michelle, for that massive, massive question. Love you too. Ask me the question again. What do I...
Daniel Taylor: What do you think, feel and want to say?
Erica Farmer: I think that everybody's got an opportunity to do what they want and what makes them happy. I genuinely believe that. I genuinely believe you have choice in this life. And we tell ourselves all sorts of stories and narratives and things of why we shouldn't do that. And I think deep down, we all know what we really want, but sometimes we're a bit scared to do that. So I just wish that people would follow their heart a lot more. And I say this all the time and I would say this to anybody, like, we're only here once. We don't get the medal for the hardest life lived at the end of our time. We don't get to the pearly gates or whatever you believe in. I'm not spiritual or religious, but I pretty much think that St Peter doesn't come up to you and say, well done for leading such a tough life. And I say that in the context of things like AI. AI can make your life easier. So how can it make your life easier? Life's bloody tough at the moment. And I just wish, I believe wholeheartedly, I wish, I think I practice this myself and I say to people all the time, whatever you can do to make your life a little bit easier, a little bit less stressful, you can be a little bit happier, you can make your family a bit happier, you know, not working on that. Sunday evening, six o'clock when you've got the Monday morning dredge, making sure you're doing the bath in with the kids or whatever it is that you love doing. Just do it. Just just do it. You know, I think that's probably my answer.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. Absolutely. And what question would you like to give to the next speaker?
Erica Farmer: probably ties into a very similar theme in regards to happiness. What one thing would you change right now to dial up that happiness just a little bit? What to make your life a little bit easier? What's the one thing that you would do right now? What's the one thing you could do tomorrow to make that change?
Daniel Taylor: That and that's definitely got me thinking Yeah, it's probably why I love it so much. And I think anyone listening to this now, just pause the podcast and just take a moment to think about that. What what's that one change that you do and then press play again and and listen to the remainder of the podcast? And as we move into the quick five questions, so these are really snappy, instant reactions. So the first one is a book recommendation.
Erica Farmer: Bit of a question there, wouldn't it? Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, for somebody who was in that space of struggling to engage with people, I actually took a lot from his principles.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic. And I will say I'll put all these links in the the show notes. can you suggest someone to follow on LinkedIn?
Erica Farmer: Haley Byrd, my business partner at Quantum Rise because she is the yin to my yang. She's the best virtual trainer you'll ever see. And she's just salt of the earth.
Daniel Taylor: It I will be following her if I don't already do so. can you give me your favourite quote?
Erica Farmer: My quote would probably be something like... Gosh, I can't really think of something now. was it the guy, Henry Ford, whether you believe you can or you can't, whether you believe you can or you believe that you can't, you're right.
Daniel Taylor: Okay, yeah.
Erica Farmer: So effectively, your mindset dictates what you then go and achieve. Whether you believe you can, whether you believe you can't, you're right. It's a bit like Yoda, try or don't try. Do or don't do, there's no try, something like that. I probably like mashed up the two there, but you know what I mean.
Daniel Taylor: Do you know what though? It's immediately taking my mind to particularly the work you you're doing on AI, if you if you see that as a blocker as this big scary beast, it's gonna be the big scary beast. But if you go, actually this can help me and start to break down, well, how can it help me and start with those little incremental gains, you're on to the way forward, I hope.
Erica Farmer: Yep. 100%. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And this is another one, it's a bit cheesy, but life's like what, 10 % that happens to you, 90 % of how you react to it. That's another thing in that kind of mindset. If you believe that you can or you can't, you're right. Like, it's all down to you and your mindset and your belief and making it happen. And if you want it, you go and get it, right? It's all down to that, really.
Daniel Taylor: Mm-hmm. 100%. And someone who's just recently passed their driving test and left it quite late on. And thank you very much. And in that process, it took me a couple of times. And I think initially I was going, I can't do this. It's too big. I'm not good with big exams and things like that. I I find that that that's, you know, life scars all the way. And I was almost telling myself, I'm not I'm gonna fail. But the moment I reset that and go, No, I can do this took the pressure off, it was so much.
Erica Farmer: congrats. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniel Taylor: So much more easy. It's it's yeah, it it really is a a a key thing though. So thank you for sharing it. what's your best interview question?
Erica Farmer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniel Taylor: Now not everyone has got one of these, but do you have one?
Erica Farmer: it when people talk about their aha moment, like the light bulb moment or something? What was the light bulb moment with AI, for example, that moment when you were like, my god, this is going to change everything. So what was that moment of clarity, that moment when you woke up, that light bulb moment? Because I think that really lets you right into that person's motivation and mindset when you ask a question like that.
Daniel Taylor: Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting one. And as you're asking that for me, it's playing with AI. It's just testing it again, constantly I'm getting these little light bulbs going, I can use that for that now. Or and it's it's building my confidence generally in the system by playing with it. I recently used AI to take a photo of my bathroom about and then say, add in this into the picture. And it didn't. I was like, I can see what I can do with this, it's brilliant. So yeah that
Erica Farmer: Yes. Yeah. Love it.
Daniel Taylor: I really like that question about how it can re again, it's all about mindset, isn't it? How it can reset
Erica Farmer: AI is 100 % mindset. Like, and this is what organizations don't get right now is we've all got access to copilot and chat GBT. We're all learning to prompt that is not the differentiator. That's not the competitive edge. The organizations where people are using AI in that way that are hard, that creativity, that thought partner, what else, what else, what else, what else? Even to the point where I would challenge, and I see it quite a lot on here, AI can't be empathetic. AI can't... well, I don't know, that's about your personal experience of whether you feel that you've received empathy or not. And I know a lot of people that have felt like they've received empathy from AI. So it's really starting to challenge our preconceptions and mindset on this stuff. And it's the organizations where people are starting to think like that, which are starting to see the innovation and the unlock as opposed to using it as a vending machine to go and get something and get out of it, like a Google search or an email rewrite or something like that.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic point. Final question then is one that can stump some people. it's been interesting to see w where you went with this. What what is your song that best describes you?
Erica Farmer: I've probably got couple if that's alright, depending on how I'm feeling, whether the ADHD medication has kicked in or not. One of my favourite songs when I'm in a bad, bad mood is Bjork's Army of Me. It's like, I don't know if you know the words, it's quite a deep bassy song. It's a brilliant song to listen to. And it's very much kind of like, it's me versus the world.
Daniel Taylor: Go for it. With No.
Erica Farmer: It's a great song, probably not the healthiest song of all time. But then my playlist will go straight on to Mr. Blue Sky by ELO. You know, very upbeat, very kind of grateful for what we have and you know, the sun's, the moon's coming over our shoulder, but the sun's gonna rise again the next day. So that's probably the complexity and the two sides of Erika coming out there in the two different songs. So I hope that's okay.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. It a hundred percent is and I will add those to the playlist which is on Spotify. So thank you very much. and thank you for taking part in the the podcast today. I hope you've enjoyed it.
Erica Farmer: Love hair. I have, thank you so much for the invite. Thank you for doing it through the lens of management and leadership as well. It's always nice to talk about what I love doing, but through a different way and making me reflect and learn more about myself as well.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. And I can't finish the conversation without you telling us a bit more about the book that you've written. Please tell us a bit more about that.
Erica Farmer: Oh, yes. Thank you. AI for people professionals. You can get it from Koganpage.com. They normally do like a decent discount 25 % for Koganpage 25 in the discount code or Amazon. Yeah, it's sold really, really well. And I think people love it because it's so practical. I've taken all the transcripts of my four years of podcasting for the AI for the Average Joe podcast show. And I've pulled out some really practical tips from all of the guests, including Michelle and some amazing people, Cathy Hoy, Helen Marshall, you know, just some great people, really, as well as that blueprint, that step by step, that operations manual. So if you're quite far into AI or if you're just starting, there is literally a blueprint for you through that in regards to what people first AI looks like. what inflammation looks like, what just really tips and tricks and big picture thinking around things like operation models and stakeholder communications. And yeah, it seems to be going down really well. So thank you everybody who's bought it.
Daniel Taylor: Wonderful. And again, make sure those links are in the show notes. And finally, if you have enjoyed today's conversation, hit the subscribe button to join our community. And if you want more, visit managingpotential podcasts.com to sign up for our newsletter and get regular leadership insights to live straight to your inbox. And for now, I just want to say a huge thank you and I hope you have a great day. Take care. Bye-bye.
Erica Farmer: Thank you so much Dan for having me, I really appreciate it and I can't not take an opportunity just to flash the book when somebody talks about it.
Daniel Taylor: It has to be done. I I would bit it feel shortchanged if not. So can you tell me a bit more about you and what you do today? Over to you.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, absolutely. So my background's 25 years corporate L &D with some of the UK's largest brands. So I've had some amazing experiences with British Gas, LV, Specsavers, Virgin, a few other organizations. And for the last seven years, I've been running my own businesses, particularly around learning technologies, virtual learning, within the last five years, generative AI. And the last year, I've set up my speaking business. And probably since 22, since ChatGP came to market, I've been working with clients to get their people really engaged and understanding their AI dividend, right, which is a recent phrase that I've trademarked, to really get people to understand that personal benefit in working with AI, break it down, make it really practical and impactful for organizations.
Daniel Taylor: And I I think AI for a lot of people is such a a massive learning curve but also a huge opportunity and can be maybe a little bit scary as well. So it's it's great to have someone that they can turn to such as yourself.
Erica Farmer: That's why I wrote the book, to be honest, because we were all on this journey in very different places, right? And we still are, like four years later. If we take 22 as the starting line for Gen. AI, I know a lot of people do, although we know the term's been around a lot longer. There was nothing that really practically gave people, and we were just briefly talking off camera around the very kind Michelle Parry Slater. Michelle calls my book a blueprint for HR. like a step-by-step operations manual. And I was blogging and vlogging and reading a bunch of stuff, but there wasn't that really practical element of how do I feel about AI? What do I need to do in my organization? How do I support my stakeholders? And therefore, how do we break down each part of the employee life cycle so we can get some real practical and emotional people benefits out of partnering with this technology that you're right, a lot of people still have a lot of fear about. Yeah, it's interesting times, no doubt we're going to delve into some of that as part of this as well.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. so start with then the first question is what sort of manager were you, you know, when you're looking back as a leader?
Erica Farmer: Yeah, I look back at my time. So I was, you know, an L &D manager, L &D partner, head of L &D for most of my roles, head of apprenticeships. And I look back now and think, I think a few things. I think I could have been a lot more people focused than what I was. I was very ambitious. I was very business focused. I was very impact focused, which is what we always say L &D should be. But If I'm really honest and reflective, that was probably at the detriment of some of my people and how they felt about things. I had two major roles as head of L &D where I had a large team reporting in to me with various leads and then I would report in to the directorships and the miners as well, or sometimes to the board. And I just remember one role in particular when I was at Virgin, I probably lasted about 18 months because I just absolutely burned out. The requirement of that role was so much for me that I just really struggled with it. And I know particularly why now, I literally was diagnosed with level one autism yesterday, hot off the press through Right to Choose and the NHS. And my ADHD diagnosis came
Daniel Taylor: Wow.
Erica Farmer: about two months ago. And I always felt different in corporate. always, you'll hear neurodivergent people talk about being the black sheep, the round hole in the square, round peg in the square hole. And that's exactly what my experience was. So somebody who very much kind of saw things very logically was good at the big picture, good at the detail, but not perhaps so good at the people element of that and struggled to empathize and understand and read emotions. You know, I was probably 50 % effective as a leader because of that. And I'm not blaming my neurodivergence on being a crap manager. I just think that I just wish I knew what I knew now, if that makes sense from that perspective. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. So looking back at that time, if there was somebody working with you, what could they have done almost? Or is there any support you could have had looking back at that point? Maybe if someone's l listening now or watching, going, I I'm seeing those traits in someone I'm working with and they they don't have a diagnosis and it's not maybe on their radar, but what what could have changed?
Erica Farmer: Yeah. I think nobody ever asked me, and I always ask my team this, particularly when we met for the first time or I had a new team report in for me, what can I do to make sure we can work really well together? That was the first important question for me with my team. I don't ever remember anybody asking me that question. Like, how can we get the best out of each other or is there any... adjustments, for example, that I can do in my communication and my style that will get the best out of you, for example, or make you feel more comfortable or safe. Because we all know people who feel comfortable, psychologically safe, confident, competent, will be the people that produce best results for you are more motivated. I had to find all that stuff out myself with a brain that isn't really wired for the neurotypical world that we live in. And that's why I, part of the reason why I love AI so much, I always say I wish generative AI was a thing when I was a leader and manager, because it helps me make sense out of the world. It helps me translate people's behaviours. It helps me deep dive and go down the rabbit hole about things I'm really interested in, which gives me my dopamine hit, which makes me more resilient and flexible to be with other people. So getting my needs met so I can then put your oxygen mask on before you're helping others, right? I was just not putting my oxygen mask on, particularly in corporate. And I do carry those wounds, which I think a lot of neurodivergent people probably do, and neurotypical people. When you've just got a senior team around you or a manager that just doesn't get it and just doesn't understand why you communicate the way that you do. And that's quite tricky in corporate where you can't really read between the lines and infer the politics of what's going on. So I've got so much learning now that I look back on that I do build into my AI as a thinking partner. And I do give it the context around, you know, some of the stuff that I felt and the way I behave now and the things that I need to understand in terms of my blind spots, whether that's with audiences or clients or working with my business partner, Haley, or whatever that might be. So I feel now we have much better understanding around neurodivergence and needs. So I'd like to think people who are neurodivergent are more likely to have a conversation around what they do need, but also AI can support that either individually as a coach or a thinking partner or help managers to understand more about those neurodevelopmental conditions.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic. And I think that that that question was you know how can you get the best out of me and get the best out of each other is such a a valid one and it's one that I use a lot when I'm I'm working with consultants or with the business. It's like particularly with new com new relationships, it's just really understanding how each other ticks is so so impressive. yeah, so really w w would take that as a suggestion that we we all take away.
Erica Farmer: Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: With this point around sort of development and and y you've clearly mentioned about AI, but how do you develop or continue to develop your your potential but also of that around you, you know, those people around you?
Erica Farmer: Yeah, so a lot of what I do is the public speaking, the consulting, the workshops, etc. And I, because I'm so interested in what I do, I like to share that with people. I like to diagnose it, digest it, assimilate it. The L &D background naturally positions it as skills and a way to help people be more confident practically with using AI. So I think I'm lucky to have that mindset that we're always learning, learning agility, what are we putting down to pick up and applying record time? I am a natural skeptic, which I think is a strength because that is part of critical thinking. I do question a lot of things. That's probably the level one autism in me is quite as well. So I think I'm lucky because I'm in a place and I've worked very hard for this where You know what the Japanese call Ikigai, right? That kind of Venn diagram of what you love doing versus what people need versus what you can get paid for. And there's like purpose in the middle. I find that I found my Ikigai and my neurodiversity plays a strength in all of that, as opposed to something that holds me back. in corporate, if I look back now, it very much held me back, particularly around politics and company BS. corporate HR functions that talked about kicking the tires and getting ducks in a row and would infer that I had to do certain tasks and I had no idea that we even had that conversation, right? So I think AI can help from a lot of reasons and the requirement to be so specific with AI when you are prompting and delegating with it, I think is a really good thing for people to learn good management skills as well. Being clear about the outcome you want from your people. understand how to give feedback and get the best out of them, not assume that they fully understand what it is that you get from them. And that synergy around great management conversation and great prompting and AI delegation as a digital colleague, I think is phenomenal. And that's been a real light bulb moment for me. So I try and get people to really understand the benefits of those kind of things. And also, Asking the question like you've just said, what else do need from me to make sure you're going to be your best or you can deliver this project to its best? You know, we teach that is what we call a killer question when we're prompting. You ask the AI if you've given everything you need it and it always comes back with a load of questions because you've assumed a load of stuff. That's great learning for leaders and managers, particularly around neurodivergency, but for everybody that they're looking after as well.
Daniel Taylor: That's quite a cool reflection, particularly around in a prompting. You know, if if you're struggling on writing that prompt, is that sort of giving you a hint that you know is there a communication barrier, or yeah, and I think if it's linking the AI prompts back to being as a manager, that that's you know really interesting. And one of the things that stood out to me when I saw you as a speaker was that whole aspect of being able to communicate a very difficult, very emotive topic really clearly and with some really clear steps that we could all take away and I think that's that's something that I took away from seeing you at the the festival of work and I know you the there's lots of speaking gigs you've done videos and all this and I would I would I would recommend people engage with you more on that and I I think actually I was is there something that you could give as a suggestion for f for people watching and listening today, in terms of AI and the way forward, that's almost that that sort of quick win about what a manager can do now or a leader can do now. That that's their their their first task.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I'll start with the same thing every time. Ask yourself, how do you feel about it and why? Because so many managers and HR and L &D are on this kind of automation train where they've been told by the CEO or the C-suite that we have to adopt AI. Perhaps the leadership haven't been explicit clear why we're adopting AI, what kind of problem we're trying to solve, and whether that's going to impact people's jobs and futures and... Because whether it is or it isn't, think managers and leaders still need to be explicit around that. Because if they're not explicit around that, people fill in the gaps because that's what we do, know, self-preservation and we catastrophize and that stuff. So the first piece is why do we feel about it and why? What do we feel about it and why? And explore that. Because this isn't just another piece of technology. This is closer to intelligence in the way that it operates. So it makes us feel weird. So we need to work that through.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Erica Farmer: And then understand our AI dividend. What is that personal incremental benefit that we all have in making our personal life just that little bit easier with collaborating with something like AI? And that could be giving yourself more headspace because you're not trying to hold onto the detail all the time, which I see HR do all the time. You can automate, get your A to I tools, doing a bunch of stuff, foundational, drafts, whatever it might be. That enables you to do more of the high level thinking and the stuff that adds value to stakeholders or to your family, your husband, your wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, kids, whatever it might be. For me, my AI dividend is having, you know, AI do parts of my business like researching, which means I can look after my mental and physical health a lot more. have fibromyalgia, which means I can't just work constantly. My back shoes just die sometimes and I can't take a pill for it. So my AI dividend is the ability just to slob out on the couch in front of Star Trek and look after my energy. For some people, it's wellbeing, some people it's time. It means they can do the school run every day. So really identifying what that is. How do we practice having that difficult conversation? How do I role play that with the AI so I feel more comfortable and confident when I go to do it the first time and I don't fluff it, for example. Confidence is an AI dividend. purpose and passion is to get people to think about all of that in a real selfish, personal way. And if more organisations did that, if more leaders did that, they unlock the what's in it for me, the with them, the intrinsic motivation, they would find they would get less resistance around using AI in people's roles because all people are thinking about is why am going to learn it if it's going to take my job because you haven't told me it's not going to take my job. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: Which in turn takes away some of that fear because you you're bit more comfortable with it and yeah. And asking that that so what question is one that I use an awful lot. It's or, you know, is that why, why? It's if you keep asking that you get closer to the actual issue, and and then the as you mentioned, the purpose of the fantastic point. That does lead me on to the next question then, which was what was your biggest learning experience as a manager?
Erica Farmer: My biggest learning experience as a manager was people don't always do what you tell them to do. And when you're a bright young thing and you're maybe high will, low skill at that point, but there's lots of ambition and you want to do well and you want people to think you're great.
Daniel Taylor: If only.
Erica Farmer: You know, there's times where, certainly for me, I was naive to think that if I asked my team to do something, it would get done and get done to the level that I expected it to do. Actually, we're walking, talking variables. know, we all are like Shrek says, we're like onions, right? We've got all these layers around us. And, you know, being someone who's very literal, if my manager asked me to do something, I would go off and do it because that was the instruction I took and that's what I did in my job. So you always see it through your own lens rather than the lenses of other people. And it took me quite a long time to try and understand that. And that was a real learnt behaviour for me around like, why would, I've asked you, you think, why would you not, why would you not just go and do it? It's what your managers ask you to do. And that's how you keep your manager happy. You do what they ask you to do. So why, that's what you get paid for. That's why you've got a job. And I know that's very black and white. But that's genuinely how I felt as one of my first big L &D manager roles. And I had a small team, but two people in particular had very complex backgrounds, a lot of personal stuff going on, large families, complicated relationships in particular, one person. And it all very much got in the way of what he was doing from my perspective. And I found that particularly difficult to... to work with and to deal with. And unfortunately, we did have to go down disciplinary routes and stuff like that, because it just got to the point where it was affecting his job too much, particularly around timekeeping, quality of delivery, et cetera. And you know what it's like when you're running an L &D function, particularly with trainers, those people are highly visible in front of your stakeholders. So it doesn't take a lot for feedback to start coming through to the L &D manager around how people are in front of an audience, for example. So yeah, that was massive learns for me, I'd say.
Daniel Taylor: So what I'm taking from this, the the there is this sort of key point about really getting to understand one yourself as a as a manager and what what where your strengths are or what those strengths are, trying to lean into that much more if possible. So you are much more comfortable and you're getting the best out the role. But also really getting to understand the business but also the individuals that you're working with and really knowing
Erica Farmer: Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: where their strengths are, what w what makes them tick and and by having all of that I'm sensing you've got a better relationship, you're happier, but also y the organisation is getting more out of you in a in a positive way, you know, y y you you're be being able to really shine and and be successful.
Erica Farmer: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I probably did that the hard way, to be honest. I think some people are more natural people managers. They're more intuitive, they're more empathetic. But for some reason, we all go through that kind of, I want to be a manager, I want more, I'm more ambitious, or I want a higher salary, for example, I don't particularly want to manage people. And I know people in this position.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah.
Erica Farmer: And I think organisations sometimes have more of an obligation to really get to the people that genuinely want to manage people and not the person that's just been in the job the longest, for example, or who's more technical or who shouts the loudest. think they're probably, again, if I knew what I knew now, right, back then, I was exhausted managing people because I found it quite difficult. It didn't play to my strengths. But I thought that was what I needed to do to get up the greasy pole. You know, that was the only way to do that. And some of the best managers I knew just loved being with people and just loved having conversations and coaching and just really got excited about delivering through their people and serving their people rather than that person who was kind of trying to drag everybody along from the front. And at times that was me.
Daniel Taylor: So w if you could give some advice to a new manager or even yourself now looking back, what would it be?
Erica Farmer: Ask yourself what sets your soul alight. Now I can answer that very clearly. What I do right now sets my soul alight. I love it. It doesn't feel like work. And I know that there's lots of cliches around, know, if it doesn't feel like work, then that's the key. And, you know, you'll never do a day's work in your life and all that kind of stuff. But what is it that makes you happy? What is it that, you know, motivates you? Is it working with other people and getting the best out of them? Or is it... You know, being an individual contributor, for example, you know, and meeting your needs for ambition and success and progress that way. There's nothing wrong with any of those choices. The thing that I think I did too long was probably try and spend time looking after everybody. using my non-preferred hand for want of another analogy, right? I'm right-handed and I felt like I was using my left hand for everything at that point. And I don't think I would want to go back to managing people now because it doesn't play to my strengths. I like inspiring people and working with people, but I think you've got to be a certain kind of person to genuinely deliver through people and enjoy doing that.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah.
Erica Farmer: And it's kind of understanding whether that's your calling or not, really, because we all remember those amazing managers who gave us those opportunities or that amazing teacher, right, at school. remember Mrs. Harris in PE. That's why I went and did sports sciences a degree. She was inspirational. So but unfortunately, we always remember those poor managers. I can remember, you know, the manager I had. And unfortunately, I got to a point when I had to leave the organization because I just couldn't. I couldn't breathe under her, you know, metaphorically. So, and I didn't want to leave that organisation. And I did because that was how I only felt that was the only option, really. So that was a long time ago. And again, I could have done things very, very differently to what I did. And I was with that organisation for quite a long time, which was a shame because I knew a lot of people. But, you know. You have to make decisions that are right for you in the moment at that time and be accountable and responsible for the decisions that you make because no one's coming to save you. No one's coming to make it better. There's no knight in shining armor, you know, to unpick the things that you've decided to do. It's all about your decisions and, you know, some of them will be right and some of them won't be right. And that's life. That went very philosophical then, didn't it?
Daniel Taylor: no. very good point. And it I always it it does make me wonder the amount of times that I guess organizations as you you go more senior, one of the side effects is you get a team or that team gets bigger and you go, Well, Ashley is that right? You know, it I think sometimes it's needed, but also you know, is that the direct output that, you know, for a role and you but you must have a team because it's not always the the right approach and yeah, I I think there is s some reflection there needed. But and and what I I love w with what you were saying there is taking that time to really reflect on, you know, is this working for me and if not, why not? And, you know, reaching out and getting the support if needed, you know, whether that be a coach or a mentor or or whatever else it might be, just to help you navigate those that quite tough
Erica Farmer: Hmm.
Daniel Taylor: process you're going through or you know actually do you just need to leave that organisation, leave that role, leave that that manager. And when you said there around you know, you just needed to be able to breathe, that that's to me it it's so visual. I can I can almost feel and be in that role with you of I've known how what the impact of that that that relationship could have been. So it is really important to take that time out and and do something a bit different if possible.
Erica Farmer: Hmm. Mm. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And people are scared of that, right? People are like, I can't leave this job because of this, or I've been here for so long, it's comfortable. Or I have to travel a little bit further for an opportunity down the road. But they will sacrifice mental health, happiness, motivation. I mean, when I was at British Gas, I remember speaking to a lady who hated her job, but the maternity rights were so good and she wanted to have a baby. She stayed there.
Daniel Taylor: yeah.
Erica Farmer: And I remember thinking, for me, that's crazy. But people make decisions through different lenses and different morals and different values, and that was obviously very important to her. But what detriment was that having on her trying to get pregnant and the stress of the job and her mental health? So it's funny what we think we have to sacrifice sometimes for other things.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. sometimes getting that outside view can can help. Because if it if it's right and it if it's working, then great. You know, and there's no right way for anyone. but if you are struggling, please reach out. That that's one of the reasons why personally I love coaching so much. And it it really ticks my box, makes me really happy where I can really help somebody to navigate something that they've maybe struggled for a long time and that they just can't.
Erica Farmer: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Taylor: navigate that that path in whichever way. So for me coaching really works, but it may not work for someone else. So it's you know whatever works, which I was literally about to say a line from the next question. So I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna lead in with a question that was from Michelle Parry Slater who you've you've mentioned and her question links to Nancy Klein's thinking partnership and it is what do you think Feel and want to say.
Erica Farmer: Thank you, Michelle, for that massive, massive question. Love you too. Ask me the question again. What do I...
Daniel Taylor: What do you think, feel and want to say?
Erica Farmer: I think that everybody's got an opportunity to do what they want and what makes them happy. I genuinely believe that. I genuinely believe you have choice in this life. And we tell ourselves all sorts of stories and narratives and things of why we shouldn't do that. And I think deep down, we all know what we really want, but sometimes we're a bit scared to do that. So I just wish that people would follow their heart a lot more. And I say this all the time and I would say this to anybody, like, we're only here once. We don't get the medal for the hardest life lived at the end of our time. We don't get to the pearly gates or whatever you believe in. I'm not spiritual or religious, but I pretty much think that St Peter doesn't come up to you and say, well done for leading such a tough life. And I say that in the context of things like AI. AI can make your life easier. So how can it make your life easier? Life's bloody tough at the moment. And I just wish, I believe wholeheartedly, I wish, I think I practice this myself and I say to people all the time, whatever you can do to make your life a little bit easier, a little bit less stressful, you can be a little bit happier, you can make your family a bit happier, you know, not working on that. Sunday evening, six o'clock when you've got the Monday morning dredge, making sure you're doing the bath in with the kids or whatever it is that you love doing. Just do it. Just just do it. You know, I think that's probably my answer.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. Absolutely. And what question would you like to give to the next speaker?
Erica Farmer: probably ties into a very similar theme in regards to happiness. What one thing would you change right now to dial up that happiness just a little bit? What to make your life a little bit easier? What's the one thing that you would do right now? What's the one thing you could do tomorrow to make that change?
Daniel Taylor: That and that's definitely got me thinking Yeah, it's probably why I love it so much. And I think anyone listening to this now, just pause the podcast and just take a moment to think about that. What what's that one change that you do and then press play again and and listen to the remainder of the podcast? And as we move into the quick five questions, so these are really snappy, instant reactions. So the first one is a book recommendation.
Erica Farmer: Bit of a question there, wouldn't it? Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, for somebody who was in that space of struggling to engage with people, I actually took a lot from his principles.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic. And I will say I'll put all these links in the the show notes. can you suggest someone to follow on LinkedIn?
Erica Farmer: Haley Byrd, my business partner at Quantum Rise because she is the yin to my yang. She's the best virtual trainer you'll ever see. And she's just salt of the earth.
Daniel Taylor: It I will be following her if I don't already do so. can you give me your favourite quote?
Erica Farmer: My quote would probably be something like... Gosh, I can't really think of something now. was it the guy, Henry Ford, whether you believe you can or you can't, whether you believe you can or you believe that you can't, you're right.
Daniel Taylor: Okay, yeah.
Erica Farmer: So effectively, your mindset dictates what you then go and achieve. Whether you believe you can, whether you believe you can't, you're right. It's a bit like Yoda, try or don't try. Do or don't do, there's no try, something like that. I probably like mashed up the two there, but you know what I mean.
Daniel Taylor: Do you know what though? It's immediately taking my mind to particularly the work you you're doing on AI, if you if you see that as a blocker as this big scary beast, it's gonna be the big scary beast. But if you go, actually this can help me and start to break down, well, how can it help me and start with those little incremental gains, you're on to the way forward, I hope.
Erica Farmer: Yep. 100%. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And this is another one, it's a bit cheesy, but life's like what, 10 % that happens to you, 90 % of how you react to it. That's another thing in that kind of mindset. If you believe that you can or you can't, you're right. Like, it's all down to you and your mindset and your belief and making it happen. And if you want it, you go and get it, right? It's all down to that, really.
Daniel Taylor: Mm-hmm. 100%. And someone who's just recently passed their driving test and left it quite late on. And thank you very much. And in that process, it took me a couple of times. And I think initially I was going, I can't do this. It's too big. I'm not good with big exams and things like that. I I find that that that's, you know, life scars all the way. And I was almost telling myself, I'm not I'm gonna fail. But the moment I reset that and go, No, I can do this took the pressure off, it was so much.
Erica Farmer: congrats. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniel Taylor: So much more easy. It's it's yeah, it it really is a a a key thing though. So thank you for sharing it. what's your best interview question?
Erica Farmer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniel Taylor: Now not everyone has got one of these, but do you have one?
Erica Farmer: it when people talk about their aha moment, like the light bulb moment or something? What was the light bulb moment with AI, for example, that moment when you were like, my god, this is going to change everything. So what was that moment of clarity, that moment when you woke up, that light bulb moment? Because I think that really lets you right into that person's motivation and mindset when you ask a question like that.
Daniel Taylor: Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting one. And as you're asking that for me, it's playing with AI. It's just testing it again, constantly I'm getting these little light bulbs going, I can use that for that now. Or and it's it's building my confidence generally in the system by playing with it. I recently used AI to take a photo of my bathroom about and then say, add in this into the picture. And it didn't. I was like, I can see what I can do with this, it's brilliant. So yeah that
Erica Farmer: Yes. Yeah. Love it.
Daniel Taylor: I really like that question about how it can re again, it's all about mindset, isn't it? How it can reset
Erica Farmer: AI is 100 % mindset. Like, and this is what organizations don't get right now is we've all got access to copilot and chat GBT. We're all learning to prompt that is not the differentiator. That's not the competitive edge. The organizations where people are using AI in that way that are hard, that creativity, that thought partner, what else, what else, what else, what else? Even to the point where I would challenge, and I see it quite a lot on here, AI can't be empathetic. AI can't... well, I don't know, that's about your personal experience of whether you feel that you've received empathy or not. And I know a lot of people that have felt like they've received empathy from AI. So it's really starting to challenge our preconceptions and mindset on this stuff. And it's the organizations where people are starting to think like that, which are starting to see the innovation and the unlock as opposed to using it as a vending machine to go and get something and get out of it, like a Google search or an email rewrite or something like that.
Daniel Taylor: Fantastic point. Final question then is one that can stump some people. it's been interesting to see w where you went with this. What what is your song that best describes you?
Erica Farmer: I've probably got couple if that's alright, depending on how I'm feeling, whether the ADHD medication has kicked in or not. One of my favourite songs when I'm in a bad, bad mood is Bjork's Army of Me. It's like, I don't know if you know the words, it's quite a deep bassy song. It's a brilliant song to listen to. And it's very much kind of like, it's me versus the world.
Daniel Taylor: Go for it. With No.
Erica Farmer: It's a great song, probably not the healthiest song of all time. But then my playlist will go straight on to Mr. Blue Sky by ELO. You know, very upbeat, very kind of grateful for what we have and you know, the sun's, the moon's coming over our shoulder, but the sun's gonna rise again the next day. So that's probably the complexity and the two sides of Erika coming out there in the two different songs. So I hope that's okay.
Daniel Taylor: Yeah. It a hundred percent is and I will add those to the playlist which is on Spotify. So thank you very much. and thank you for taking part in the the podcast today. I hope you've enjoyed it.
Erica Farmer: Love hair. I have, thank you so much for the invite. Thank you for doing it through the lens of management and leadership as well. It's always nice to talk about what I love doing, but through a different way and making me reflect and learn more about myself as well.
Daniel Taylor: Absolutely. And I can't finish the conversation without you telling us a bit more about the book that you've written. Please tell us a bit more about that.
Erica Farmer: Oh, yes. Thank you. AI for people professionals. You can get it from Koganpage.com. They normally do like a decent discount 25 % for Koganpage 25 in the discount code or Amazon. Yeah, it's sold really, really well. And I think people love it because it's so practical. I've taken all the transcripts of my four years of podcasting for the AI for the Average Joe podcast show. And I've pulled out some really practical tips from all of the guests, including Michelle and some amazing people, Cathy Hoy, Helen Marshall, you know, just some great people, really, as well as that blueprint, that step by step, that operations manual. So if you're quite far into AI or if you're just starting, there is literally a blueprint for you through that in regards to what people first AI looks like. what inflammation looks like, what just really tips and tricks and big picture thinking around things like operation models and stakeholder communications. And yeah, it seems to be going down really well. So thank you everybody who's bought it.
Daniel Taylor: Wonderful. And again, make sure those links are in the show notes. And finally, if you have enjoyed today's conversation, hit the subscribe button to join our community. And if you want more, visit managingpotential podcasts.com to sign up for our newsletter and get regular leadership insights to live straight to your inbox. And for now, I just want to say a huge thank you and I hope you have a great day. Take care. Bye-bye.
