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Hello and welcome to this episode of the Making Musicians Podcast, a podcast of the I Am Music Foundation.
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Hope you enjoy.
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What I'm hearing you say is that you need to be creative.
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You have to be collaborative.
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I heard patience.
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I knew early on that a non-standard school uh demanded a non-standard approach to music, which my whole path has been non-standard into music.
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Hey everybody, thank you for joining us and welcome to the Making Musician Studio.
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I can't wait for you guys to meet this person.
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I have loved getting to know him.
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Uh he reached out to me, and it has just been it's been this fantastic opportunity to get to meet somebody in a really unique space.
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And here's what I want, here's what I want to tell you about the both of us because we have this in common.
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Neither of us took a traditional path to music education.
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Neither one of us have music ed degrees.
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So too.
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And then we became music educators.
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You know my story, but Adam, tell us your story.
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Tell us what you do and tell us about Carol.
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All right.
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Um, so yeah, uh, my name is Adam, and I am the uh performing arts teacher who teaches music and drama at the Carroll School uh in Lincoln, Massachusetts, which is about 45 minutes an hour outside of Boston.
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I have been teaching at this school.
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I just wrapped up my 13th year of teaching there.
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I had the great pleasure of designing this school's music curriculum entirely from scratch.
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When I first came into the school 13 years ago, they had had a couple little um bits and pieces of music like in the middle school.
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Uh they have a lower school campus, which is basically the version of the elementary school, and they have um they had a guy there, um, uh Pat Page, who's like a phenomenal teacher in himself, who uh teaches lower school and is still here today.
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Um but for my journey, I came into the middle school through way of the the drama teacher, because the drama was like advocating for uh the middle school to have music.
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And um yeah, they had like bits and pieces of some kind of music program for a long time.
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When I came in there, I had the joy of being able to build a curriculum for these like glorious, wonderful brains that they had at this school.
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You know, the school was a very non-standard school, and so I knew early on that a non-standard school uh demanded a non-standard approach to music, which my whole path has been non-standard into music.
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Uh, you know, I was in uh youth theater a lot before I became a teacher, so I was a songwriter, playwright, and so I worked with uh kids from you know uh first grade, like all the way through high school and adults, just like like teaching songs to musical theater and worked at a ton of summer camps doing various music things.
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So music education and just working with kids, I've it's been a big part of my life for pretty much my entire adult life.
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So tell me about Carol, because Carol, you said it's for non-traditional students, but like what is Carol's mission?
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What are they doing?
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Who's in your classes every day?
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So Carol is um one of the foremost institutions for kids with language-based learning difficulties, such as dyslexia.
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Um we you know, we casually say they'll like the school for dyslexic kids, but dyslexia is a very like broad term that sort of um uh yeah, sort of like envelops a lot of um a lot of different uh sort of neurological elements.
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Um there is like a Carol profile for like what a what a Carol kid is, and they all have like some shade or flavor of dyslexia, and oftentimes that comes with uh sometimes ADHD, sometimes some auditory processing issues, um, and like other various things that sort of like come with that neurological profile.
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I teach middle school kids, so it's all sixth, seventh, and eighth grade.
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I have taught like a little bit of uh a little bit in ninth grade as well.
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But um, yeah, all of the kids who I teach, um, you know, all IEP kids, obviously, um who uh just all have differently wired brains who have some kind of difficulty encoding and decoding written language.
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Oh my goodness.
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So you teach so every kid in your class has an IEP?
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Every uh it's a specialty school, like it's an independent school specifically for kids who have been in one way or another sort of like failed by uh their other schools that just in their other schools just have not clicked for them.
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In my thoroughly unbiased opinion, of course, it's a pretty magical place.
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Um it is a cool place where kids who just have not been able to find success in other schools can come to feel understood and supported and just give them a really just solid foundation to just help them learn and become more confident lifelong learners.
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So you came into this school that is full of kids with IEPs, and it's it's specifically for language-based learning difficulties, but you mentioned there's a ton of ADHD because learning-based language difficulties are comorbid with a ton of other stuff.
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That's right.
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And I'm just I'm imagining if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking about all the kids with IEPs in my classrooms and how overwhelming that can feel to think of a whole classroom full of kids with IEPs, and then you designed the program for them.
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Yes.
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What was that like?
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I come from a big background, just like coming from the world of theater, I come from a background of you know creativity and collaboration and experimentation.
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Like that's sort of what that is.
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Short story.
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My very first year at Carol, um, my my former uh now retired uh partner, Shay Chattel, I was talking about her like, like, what exactly do you want me to do here?
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Like what what like do you want me to try and like you know, re-like just like reinvigorate the stuff that you had done before?
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Or do you want me to like come up with some new stuff?
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What do you want me to do?
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Like, which one do you want me to do?
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And she looked at me totally straight face and just said, both.
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And so I said, uh oh uh okay.
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All right, sure, why not?
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Let's do it.
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Uh like you mentioned before, like I had I had never taken a music education course in my life, but I knew music and I knew kids and I knew education.
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And I had a sort of long history through all my various institutions of just developing programming and curriculum based on kids and needs.
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I've been doing that for a long time.
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You know what you said that completely fascinated me?
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Because you're like, I because of the theater and where I came from and and what you had practiced before of creativity and collaboration, that you were equipped because you were creative and collaborative.
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I'm kind of wondering at this point how often a a music teacher in a typical school or a music teacher who is teaching a curriculum to private students feels free to be creative and collaborative.
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I mean, that is, I mean, it's a$64,000 question, right?
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I'm extremely fortunate to work for an institution that basically gave me free reign.
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They knew that music was good for kids.
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They knew they wanted to have music for kids, but there's no standardized curriculum for music with dyslexic kids.
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Like, you know, here's a curriculum for teaching dyslexic kids.
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Here, go.
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No, it doesn't exist.
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Yeah.
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They knew that music was good.
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They didn't know all the reasons why music was good, but they're like, most schools offer music, so we want to offer music.
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Um, go figure out how to teach our kids music.
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And that was pretty much it.
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And they they just sort of left me alone to do that.
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They just trusted, like, all right, we're hiring you to teach music to our kids, go teach music to our kids.
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I knew from the beginning there were two ways I could do it.
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One, I could look at sort of how everybody else did it and sort of like try and custom tailor standard curriculum to these kids, but I knew pretty much immediately, like, no, these are non-standard students with non-standard brains.
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So why on earth would I try to apply a standard curriculum with standard rules and standard lessons to a non-standard system?
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Like, that's ridiculous.
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That's utterly ridiculous.
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That's utterly ridiculous.
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Like, that's gonna just it's just gonna result in in headaches.
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So I had to start from the ground up.
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I knew I had to take all of my knowledge of music and just put it in the sandbox and just see what kind of sandcastle I could build with the kids.
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You know, because I knew, like, I knew I wasn't just gonna do it by myself.
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I'm like, all right, this is gonna be kind of a this is gonna be a laboratory too, where I'm just gonna try out a lot of things I and and consider what I believed to be important for a music experience to be with kids, like what I wanted them to get out of it and all my curriculum around that.
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Okay, so here if here's my question because you just said something that is really compelling.
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You said, what do I think is important for kids to know about music?
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Now, if I'm listening to if I'm listening to this, I I'm probably coming to this from a few different places.
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First, I might be coming to this where it's like, uh, this is the curriculum I've always been told to teach.
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So this is the one I teach.
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It tells me what's important to teach.
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That and so that might have just blown my mind where you got to start from where you believe.
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But I also, if I'm listening to this and thinking to myself, hold on.
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I want to know what he thinks is important because he's at a school with language-based learning difficulties.
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Is he teaching those kids how to read music or are they all just some people might be thinking messing around?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And this is sort of where uh, you know, I have a few like hot takes on this that, you know, like because the idea of like what are you supposed to teach in music class?
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Yeah, that you have sort of like a curriculum, and you know, but the state says that this is what you're supposed to teach.
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This is what kids need to know.
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I'll give a little like little tangent thing, but I promise this is related.
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When it comes to following rules, like I am uh I am very much an advocate of like learn the rules, master the rules, break the rules, just as like a general life philosophy.
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And you know, there are people who are rule followers and there are people who are rule questioners slash rule breakers, that's whatever.
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And one of the things that's you know I like to advocate to my students, and certainly a belief that I have, is that I believe it is more valuable to understand why a rule is in place than to just blindly follow a rule.
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Because when you have when you have that understanding, then it just like it helps you not only understand why the rule is in place, but it helps you operate within and around the rules, I guess.
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You know, I'm not advocating being like like break the rules and another thing, but um, it just helps to sort of develop things.
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And I feel like when we are given a curriculum to say like this is important, you know, just asking the why of things like why, why is it important that we teach this?
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Why is why is it important that they learn notation?
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Why is it important that they learn how to properly draw a treble clef on the like like on a staff line?
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Why is it important that they know their quarter notes, their eighth notes, their sixteenth notes?
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You know, these are all valid and wonderful questions to ask.
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But like for me, in my development of things, I'm like, well, I know I'm gonna have these kids, like the way that our program works um um in different grades, you know, kids rotate through the different specials just like they do, I think, in a lot of schools.
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So they'll um, like for example, the sixth graders see me twice over the course of the year.
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They see me once for drama where I teach them uh improv, and then they come a second time for music.
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And each one of those is about four weeks.
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You know, and see me like every day for four weeks.
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And so I'm thinking, well, if I'm gonna design an experience, uh a music experience for it's like four weeks of music, what do I want that to be?
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What's gonna give them the most bang for their buck to make the program as accessible, as engaging, as fun, um, and as interesting as it can possibly be, knowing that I have this population to work with.
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And uh, you know, you asked about notation before.
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Um, you know, hot take, hot take, especially given this particular community.
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I think music literacy is kind of bullshit.
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Um, tell me more.
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I know that a lot of people put a lot of not a lot of pressure, but just a lot of uh importance on being able to decipher notes and read notes because, yeah, in a lot of way, like that is the language of our craft, right?
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That overwhelmingly our music has been um written in little dots on the page.
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Which um, you know, um if you have, you know, the little kids learn, if they have a circle with a line, you know, if they see a circle with a line, they can interpret that in their brain as a B or a D or a P or a Q if we're interpreting it as a letter.
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Um but, you know, we have a circle with a line can also be a quarter note or an eighth note or a half note, depending on how those things are written.
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And we're not interpreting it into a uh into a letter, but we're interpreting it into a symbol that has meaning.
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So it is less about the you know understanding that like a B makes the b sound, but if I see an open circle with a line next to it, I know that that means I'm going to play this particular note and I'm gonna hold it for two beats.
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So you're still interpreting symbols and you're interpreting them like spatially rather than phonetically.
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But um, you know, that our language is a language just like any other, which takes time to process and understand.
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And if I only have four weeks with a kid, and I know these kids are like already literally spending their whole year like deciphering squiggles on the page to interpret meaning, I don't want to spend four weeks with them, like trying to teach them notation when there are so many other experiences and ways for them to get to music quicker and faster that is just as enjoy that is uh way more enjoyable, way more expedient, and still super fun and engaging that do not require any notation.
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Um, that's one of the great things about our medium.
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Like the fact that music can be attacked from so many different directions and be interpreted so many different ways that uh it's like like like no, I'm not gonna waste time on notation when these kids can be experiencing all the glory of music with it with none of it.
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Um I want kids to experience the joy of playing in a band.
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I want kids to be able to write and play their own music without ever touching standard notation.
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And they do.
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You know, I've researched a whole lot of like other ways of just you know um creating, recording uh stuff down that is just way more kid friendly and the kids have a blast with it.
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I love everything about that.
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Um, mostly because I think that it is so easy to get stuck in first you teach a quarter note and you say, this is a quarter note, this is what it does, this is what happens.
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And and that's the that's the standard.
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You teach the name of the note, you teach what it does, you have them execute on it.
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From a brain perspective, that's actually a little bit backwards, but that's a whole other conversation that we would need another podcast for.
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But then to actually be like, if I were a teacher listening to this and I was thinking about my IEP kids and thinking, wait a minute, can I get them more involved if I pay attention to their IEP and go, you know what?
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I want you to be involved with the class.
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We are all doing this, it's true, we're all doing this notation stuff.
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Uh, what if I gave you the ability to do something just a little bit different for you?
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What if they had the freedom to do that?
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I'm kind of wondering what people are thinking about that particular question.
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Like, wait, can I do that with IEP class?
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I think that depends on administration.
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But of course.
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The next question would be are you creative enough?
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Are you brave enough?
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I mean, that must have for for you, you mentioned you're you're used to creativity and collaboration.
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But I wonder how much bravery it would take for a music teacher to be able to actually execute on this idea.
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It comes back to just the idea about like, you know, like learn the rules, master the rules, break the rules.
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Where if the idea behind teaching a kid notation is to give them access to like, you know, like playing a song, you know, if if you want to teach them sort of the notation for twinkle, twinkle, little star, for example, and do you want them to be able to read the notes so they can understand it, it's like, well, that's fine.
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Are there other ways that you can give them access to twinkle, twinkle, little star, say, you know, on an orph instrument on a xylophone without ever writing a note?
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And the answer is yes, of course there is.
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Um, you can do it with pictures, you can do it with letters, you can do it with the, you can do it with a video.
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There are so many ways into any given musical endeavor that to feel like we are just tethered to one because that's the way it's always been done.
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Tradition is a terrible reason to do anything.
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Yes, we have our we have our traditions in the world of music education and Western music, but the moment we stop questioning things, the moment we stop, you know, looking for uh just other ways that can make our craft more inclusive of like all brains and all processing, like, then we're being sort of like deliberately exclusionary.
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You know, it turns into a world of uh of ableism.
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Like one of my colleagues who teaches at um uh a similar school to me out in Pennsylvania um said something that stuck with me that sort of uh Western music tradition and Western music education is kind of one of the last bastions of racism and ableism in our culture.
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I actually that was the next thing I was going to ask you about.
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So can you please, in case anybody hasn't heard that term ableism, can you please define it and then tell me more about what you just said?
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Ableism is basically it is a prejudice or discrimination against individuals who can't do certain physical cognitive things.
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It basically assumes that's capable is normal.
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That if you can do something, that is normal.
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If you can't do this thing, then you're disabled, that you are less than.
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And how many stories, Alison?
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How many stories has every single music teacher ever had of a singer in a chorus that can't match pitch being told, just mouth the words in the back?
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You know, or maybe just just mouth the words, just don't sing along.
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Or uh the kid who has like the piano, uh, you know, has a piano thing who just like who can't interpret the notes who has difficulty holding rhythm under here.
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And that teacher says, Maybe music just isn't for you.
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Okay, so I uh one of it's funny because um yeah, you you we first got introduced because you were watching my videos.
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One of my most viral videos was uh I hear I don't want to say I hear frequently because I'm lucky enough that um I'm lucky enough that I am I'm swimming in waters with people like you.
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But I before before this popped off, people would tell me, you know what, I just feel like we really need to weed people out of music.
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And I think the assumption there, the assumption there is that you are weeding people.
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Let's let's do the best possible construction on that idea of weeding people out of music.
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Let's say that we believed in the idea of lazy, right?
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So sure, we're weeding lazy people out of music who aren't who are not trying their best, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And we assume that they aren't trying their best and they are capable.
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I think the reality is when you're weeding people out of music, you are weeding the people out that you are talking about.
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People who need something a little bit different.
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That's right.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.359
But you are you're keeping them out.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:34.720
You're you're keeping them out.
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:35.200
That's right.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.799
So anyway, I'm just that's right.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:43.119
But yeah, sort of like just to like echo your point, I feel like so much of music is like, here's the music you want to achieve.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.920
And in order to achieve this, you gotta be able to do A, B, and C.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:20:07.279
And then you have the student down here who's like, Well, I can sort of do A and B, and I want to be able to do C, but my brain won't let me, depending on the facilitator, the teacher who's there saying, like, well, just practice more, just practice harder, and doesn't give them the guidance, the understanding, the support they're actually looking for.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:08.799
It's just like, well, this is the way I learned.
00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.759
I had to be able to do A, B, and C in order to be a musician, and I got there.
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.920
So if I got there, you can get there.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:15.920
And then they can't do it.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.160
And the teacher just decides, okay, you can't do it, and then maybe, maybe you just can't do it.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.279
Music isn't for you.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:22.640
Music isn't for you.
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.440
And it breaks my heart every single time.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:30.400
Like, how many adults have I met who uh, you know, was like, like, hey, let's go up to karaoke.
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.680
And she's like, Yeah, I like I don't sing.
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:42.240
I was told by a teacher back when I was 12 that I couldn't sing, and there they are, decades later, it ends up tattooed on your soul, and it's just tragic every time I hear it.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.039
Yeah.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.559
I and you know what?
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:50.480
I not only did I live that, I heard a story of it this week because I mean, and you you just you just got my book.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:56.799
This is not a plug for my book, but you just got my book, and I start that story with I was a little girl who struggled to sight read.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.799
Not I don't have dyslexia.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.160
What I have is uh autism and ADHD.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:08.240
So I was looking at the notes and struggling to to do one note after another after another after another.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:14.960
And so I would learn by ear, and my teacher would be so frustrated because she'd be like, Why aren't you looking at the at the music, Alison?
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:24.319
And it became such a conflict because I was struggling to do the thing she asked me to do, and I was considered sort of naughty.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:24.799
Yeah.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.240
Not not struggling, naughty.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.240
You weren't following directions, you weren't doing it the way you were supposed to do it.
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:32.799
Right.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.480
With the assumption that I could do it the way, like that I that because she told me to do it that way, I should have been able to do it that way.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.799
I heard another one that was super interesting.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:52.799
I was I was doing a training at a school of rock and bend, and I was sitting there, we were talking through our musical stories, and um that same thing with who told like who told you?
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.240
Who told you you can't do music?
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.519
And there's this guy, this incredibly capable pianist who was trying to do something at a university.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.880
Here in Oregon, and he was a non-major.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:11.599
And everywhere he turned when he was trying to do mus uh music in the in the music program, they're like, Well, we usually don't offer this to non-majors.
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.920
We usually don't offer this to non-majors.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:24.319
And it wasn't, they're like, We're only letting you in because we don't have a major who wants to do it, even though he was more capable than a bunch of the majors.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.240
It it's just very interesting.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:27.519
It's very, very interesting.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:29.920
All right, if we're trade, if we're trading stories.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.960
All right, uh, let's do it.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:31.839
Sorry, first story.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.000
I had a student who I was working with privately.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.200
Uh uh, she was the friend of a Carol student I had who had taken my piano class.
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:43.200
Like she was an eighth grader, um, taking my piano class, and she had a uh a friend who lived right next door to her.
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:52.000
And um the Carol student basically like took all of my entire piano curriculum and asked for all the worksheets and brought it home to her, and like they were both dyslexic.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.960
And so they just had a blast like going through like all of my worksheets and just sort of like playing music together on the piano.
00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.200
So um this girl, uh, Elise ended up being my private student.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.319
She loved to sing.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.680
This girl absolutely loved to sing, and she was um coming to me and asking, like, I kind of want to try it for senior districts.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:13.279
And she's like, But I'm kind of worried about it because there's a sight singing portion of it.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:25.279
She could read music, she had an incredible work ethic and like worked very hard, and she could read music, um, but you know, again, like just like the way she processed language affected the way that she read cheat music, and she just needed extra time.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.200
And so she's like, I don't I don't know if I should audition for this.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:40.079
You know, as anyone out there who's sort of had uh experience with senior districts knows, like the kids who do senior districts come together and learn a whole lot of music in a very, very short period of time and then go up and like do a concert.
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.839
You know, just like a really fun, high, high-intense music learning environment.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:51.359
And so I got really curious, wondering, like, huh, like I wonder if they would they would like accommodate someone who's like who has an IEP, that's dyslexic.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:24:07.279
So I called the head of senior districts, I called and and just asked him straight up, like, hey, I'm working with a student who is considering uh adjusting for senior districts, and she's dyslexic, like she has an IEP, and she knows that she can read music, but she just needs more time.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.400
Like she gets extra um time for her academic work.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.039
Um, I'm wondering, like, would she would she get a little bit of extra consideration for this?
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:21.359
And he paused for a second and he said to me, Well, look, the music is really, really simple.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.200
Like, like anyone who can sing should be able to do it.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:24.799
Like it's really, really simple.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.440
If she if she has any practice, she really should be able to do it.
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:35.920
And I just went like straight up speechless for like 10 straight seconds, just trying to ponder like, how do I even respond to this?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.480
And so I ended up just saying, like, like, uh, okay, like thank you for your time.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.000
Click, hung up the phone.
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:48.799
And I sort of brought this information to the student and her mom and said, like, focus on your own thing.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:50.400
Like, just as focus, focus on your own thing.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.119
Like, I don't know that this that senior district is going to be right for you.
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:53.680
And she did.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:05.200
And um, I ended up um hooking her and her family like up with um uh a guitar player, a friend of mine, she ended up focusing on her guitar, which for her ended up being the right way in because now she's like writing her own songs and singing and loving guitar and all that.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:23.200
But I tell the whole story to say that like that so often the people, you know, at the top of these institutions who are like trying to, you know, keep who want to keep music up on that pedestal as something we should all strive to achieve, I feel like a lot of times it does more harm than good.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:39.519
Because then you have kids who are per who, in theory, would be so so capable and loving and hardworking enough to reach that pedestal if only they had uh that extra uh just support or way in that they needed to reach for it.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:44.640
But it is not as common as it should be for that kind of support to be available.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:45.759
I'll put it that way.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.359
Like, you know, we all want that support to be available.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:59.519
Do you know what breaks my heart about that is you it's interesting even the way that you are the way that you are visualizing that where you have one hand kind of high and another hand kind of low.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.079
Like, well, here's here's this music and then here's these people down here.
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:14.640
And I think the assumption is that the assumption is that music has to stay up there and can't and can't come down.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:21.440
But then the other assumption is the other assumption is if you can't make it up to there, you didn't have anything to give to music anyway.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.559
That's right.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:24.880
Which is nonsense.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:26.960
Absolute BS.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.319
Absolute BS.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:29.839
Like you can't, yeah.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:39.519
It is, I think, so easy for us as educators to say that like, yeah, if you can't make it like a hundred percent to hear, you're not a musician.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:40.400
Um Yeah.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.960
And you have nothing, you're not gonna do anything.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.839
Music, music isn't for you, and you're not going, you don't have anything valuable to give to music that we are willing to invest in.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.559
Yeah.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:55.680
Um I love so I loved um totally not a plug for the book making musician.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:57.039
Totally not a plug.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:58.240
Not not in the slightest.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.279
Um, let me hear your thoughts, because everybody knows my thoughts.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:01.920
They're written down.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:02.799
Tell me your thoughts.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:13.519
Um I to your point, the idea that if you can't that if you can't achieve up here, you're not um yeah, that you're not worthy of music.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:23.039
Um and yeah, it's just it's it's total nonsense because so often the people who then basically those people then just have to find their own way.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:29.519
Like they have to find their own workarounds toward uh toward giving to the world of music in the ways that they can.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:35.920
They have to do it on their own because they don't have the right mentors, the right teachers, the right facilitators to help guide that path.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:52.640
Um, there was an old uh student who graduated from Carroll years ago who was a phenomenal drummer, had incredible music instincts, was a part of uh the lower school had a rock band for a while called the Electric Bears that he was a big part of for a while.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:28:12.720
And he uh you know was an incredible drummer, had incredible musical instincts, but the moment he tried to analyze the dots on the page, the moment he actually tried to like um just like hit a brick wall and was so disheartening uh that he couldn't understand the notes.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:24.720
He uh that kid is uh I haven't seen him in a few years, but the last time I saw him a few years ago, um he is now like he's now making music for movies.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:34.720
He's now full on in like um in in Pro Tools and making incredible electronic music for films and video games and stuff like that.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:36.799
An incredible musician.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:42.799
And maybe somewhere along the way, like he did pick up notation now that he's older and a bit more mature, but he found his own way.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.720
He found his own way into music without ever needing to touch notation.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.119
And you know, you look at people, you know, Elvis Presley, Taylor Swift, Paul McCartney.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.240
Like, you can't tell me that you need to be able to read music to be a successful musician.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:05.519
There are so many glorious counterexamples in the world that show that there are other ways to be a successful um musician, whatever that means to you.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:05.839
You know?
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:06.960
Okay, I have to pause you.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.839
Did you say Paul McCartney was Paul McCartney dyslexic?
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:11.519
I don't oh my gosh.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:16.079
I'm not sure that he was dyslexic, but I know he he doesn't read music, doesn't read a note of music.
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:20.480
I Googled famous musicians with dyslexia, John Lennon.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.359
So if Paul McCartney also had reading difficulties, that would be crazy.
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:34.240
You know, so John Lennon, Cher, Noah Gallagher, who's the primary songwriter for Oasis, as in Can maybe right.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:39.200
Ozzie Osborne, Jewel, Lou Reed, and Tony freaking Bennett.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.680
It says right here he adapted to reading sheet music at his own pace.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:44.400
Yep.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:44.960
Yep.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.240
And that is just like that, it like it makes all the sense in the world.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:49.440
And just like a little bit of research.
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.119
So I just looked up, so Paul McCartney was never officially diagnosed with dyslexia.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:58.720
However, he apparently did have childhood struggles with spelling and memory and formalized music lessons.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:04.000
So again, maybe he just never had quite the right teacher who wanted to understand him and support him in the ways that he needed.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:05.039
And he found his way.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.079
Like he clearly found his way into music in his own way.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:23.680
Which like which so many musicians just have to do because sort of the the formalized system out there that says this is the way through music failed them in some in some way, shape, or form.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.440
Well, okay.
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:31.119
So if you keep music up here and you never bring it down to the person.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:31.599
Yeah.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.559
I say like it's I call it bring it down to the sandbox.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:35.039
Yeah.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.119
I love that visual, actually.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:37.759
That's way better.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:42.000
Like bringing it down to the sandbox, then you miss people who can do amazing things.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.559
I'm just thinking about Billy Holliday.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:45.119
Yeah.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:47.920
Oh, one octave range.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:56.160
Which choir is going to put her, which choir teacher is going to say, Hey, like, let's put you first and foremost.
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.640
And yet she was Billy Freaking Holiday.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:30:59.440
Mm-hmm.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.799
Yep, saying arguably, like arguably the most important song ever, ever written ever.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.359
You know?
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:05.920
Yes.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:07.200
Um, yeah.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:07.920
Yeah.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:08.480
Yeah.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:31.359
Like the the breadth and the depth of talent and work ethic and creativity that is out there in the world that just get like, I don't want to say pushed aside, but that get in some way, shape, or form, like dismissed by the system because it is not the traditional system, because they do not come to music in a traditional way.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:49.039
Um I just feel that's so sad, which is why like sort of bring it back to Carol, like um, you know, uh think of my goal with all of my curriculum, with everything, is to get these kids to success as quickly as possible.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:51.440
Um just one example.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:32:02.000
Um for my piano class, like so I teach an eighth grade group piano class, which is just like uh it was just something that I've always wanted to do.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.599
I wanted to do it um for a while and then I've been like developing it over the years.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:18.559
And like the pledge that I make to every time I teach that class is I say to them on the very first day, even if you've never touched a piano before in your life, you will be on your way to playing or playing your first pop tune by the end of class today.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:20.799
At the end of the next like half an hour.
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.480
And inevitably I get looks from all the kids like, are you kidding me?
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.279
Like I pretty much do the, you know, like I'm uh, you know, just just plunking away at their grandpa's piano at their house.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.960
That like that's the extent of their knowledge.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:40.640
And yet, um, you know, after half an hour of some very basic instruction, they're already playing the three chords to stay with me by Sam Smith.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:41.119
Yeah.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:42.400
And they're playing those.
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:46.640
So within 20 minutes, they are feeling successful at their instrument.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:56.160
That's how you get kids engaged, like getting them to a place where they can feel that success, feel musical success that they've never felt before on short order.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:01.920
Um and if you get them there, they are hooked because they know they can now.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:08.319
They know they can, that their brain can get to like, holy crap, I'm playing a song and I've never touched a piano before.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:10.160
What else am I capable of?
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.880
And then, you know, then come with, you know, come with me and the Pied Piper's leading them on.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:26.000
So let's play devil's advocate here for a second and say that somebody was listening to this and being like, okay, great, you make kids feel excited about music in their first lesson, but what happens when music gets hard?
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.960
Because music, music gets hard whether you're reading or not.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.799
And what happens if a kid really wants to learn how to read music and they have dyslexia?
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:35.440
Then what?
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.480
Do we just say, no, you can't and you should focus on this other stuff?
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:49.200
Or do you is there ways like how do you help a dyslexic kid learn how to read music if that's really what they want to do and still be happy about it?
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:49.920
Mm-hmm.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.519
Uh great question.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:11.280
Uh so I have like, having done it with like a number of my kids, um, you understand that the same brain that is uh you know working extra hard to interpret uh letters and words is going to function in a very similar way to notation.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:19.119
Um it's because it's symbolic, because it's a slightly different like form of reading than like than reading letters and words.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:37.119
Uh it's going into that process with an understanding that it is going to take them more time, different angles, additional resources, that um they're not just going to like you know click into understanding these squiggles on the page, if they're struggling to understand like letters and words, those squiggles on the page.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:41.679
Like for them, understanding and decoding squiggles on a page is a challenge.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:48.480
And the first step toward anyone is about knowing that, validating that, and understanding that.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:55.920
Uh like if I were in another school where I knew a kid said, like, like, like, hey, I'm dyslexic, I would go talk to their language teachers.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:05.199
I would go talk to their English teacher and even talk to their parents to say, hey, what are the strategies that um what are what sort of like additional helper strategies are you offering them?
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.239
Is the school offering them?
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:07.599
Like takes a village, right?
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.000
Like it takes a village to help support these kids sometimes.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:30.559
And if you get that understanding, just get like whatever pieces you can, and you look at like, all right, if this kid is using um uh uh you know, like extra uh um tactile support of like just, you know, like like feeling the shape of lighters under their fingers or using um different filters um to help them analyze things.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:37.599
Like tools that are used for dyslexia can often be like often used straight or can just be adapted to sheet music.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:47.679
Um but really it's coming in with the same empathy and patience and understanding as a language teacher who gets the same thing.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.639
Like if you can't bring those things to the table, everyone gets shot in the foot.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.360
Yeah.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:05.760
You know, you gotta understand the brain first and you gotta work on building the comfort and the confidence uh that that kid can do what they are hoping to do before you actually dig into the material.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.679
Like if you can't do go ahead.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:09.920
Oh no, no, no, please continue.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:26.159
I do this in my improv classes too, that uh like if you're gonna learn anything, like if you're gonna start to like build a skill or try to build a skill, then you gotta sort of build up the bedrock of the of the kids' confidence and commitment to doing the thing first.
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:33.119
And you know, build that trust between you and the student to be like, I'm gonna help you get there.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:48.960
We are like we are gonna work through this, we're gonna work together to help understand what you're processing, how you're processing it, um, and we're gonna work together to figure out how to best get you from point A to point B, whether that is just like playing a song or understanding notation or whatever.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.880
Um it's a collaboration.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.440
It's a collaboration, like it's it's a team effort.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:59.519
But if you don't have an understanding of your student first, it's you everyone's just gonna end up frustrated.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:05.199
If you so what you just said, you have to build a bedrock of confidence in your students.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:05.840
Mm-hmm.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.519
Tell me more about that because that seems like a huge deal.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.599
It's so easy to just jump into this is what you need to know.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.320
Mm-hmm.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:23.119
If there are feelings of this is hard or I can't do this or whatever, um, it is it is so easy.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:29.440
It is so easy just to go into blind encouragement, uh just blind encouragement.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.280
The sure you can, yes, you can do it.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:32.400
Come on, you can do it.
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.480
Um I have seen f way too many adults who offer encouragement without support.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.199
And like those two things Okay, pause.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:41.679
Pause.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.039
Encouragement without support.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.400
Tell me more about that.
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:45.440
All right.
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.599
Um I've seen so there's encouragement and there's support.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.119
They are two sides of the same coin.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:55.679
It is so easy to give encouragement.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:03.119
It is much more difficult to provide appropriate support for the appropriate things for a given kid.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.000
It is easy for us to say, come on, you can do it.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:07.840
Like, I know you can do it, I believe in you.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:08.960
That's easy.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:11.199
Anyone can give encouragement.
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:25.920
But unless you are ready and prepared and capable of giving a kid the support they need and the insight they need and the love they need to take that step toward it, like it's love, people.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:26.400
It's love.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.440
Everything comes back to love.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:32.239
Umless you are ready to give those things along with the encouragement, nothing happens.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:38.079
I I just had a conversation with some with some teachers who were new teachers, right?
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.440
Relatively new teachers, very good at their instrument, relatively new teachers.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:49.760
And one of the things that we super hammered, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, one of the things we super hammered is people believe what they say to them.
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:56.400
They do not necess so they they do not necessarily believe what you say to them.
00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:01.679
Just the uh a mid-brained, the emotional part of the brain believes what you say to you.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:13.199
When when somebody says, like if I if if my husband, and and he tried, you know, to get a little personal here, um I grew up always having women compare.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:19.039
This is a completely different place, but always having women compare themselves or say bad things about themselves.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:24.320
Oh, my cellulite this, or I can't fit into my genes, and always just kind of tear themselves down.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.840
And when we got married, my husband would be like, You're so beautiful.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:31.119
And I didn't believe a thing he said.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:42.000
Didn't believe a thing he said because I had seen other people degrade themselves, seen other women degrade themselves, and that became an inner monologue for me.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:42.719
Mm-hmm.
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:43.519
Mm-hmm.
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:54.000
When I made the profound decision based on other conversations with other women that I needed to tell myself that I was beautiful, that's when I started believing it.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.199
Which was so frustrating for my husband because he kept telling me, You are so beautiful, you are so beautiful.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:03.840
So it's really interesting because you're talking about encouragement and support.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:14.000
And in this, in this class that I was teaching, I was like, you you have to get into a kid's self-narrative with them and be like, you know, say, I can't do it.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:14.559
Oh, really?
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.039
You can't do it?
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.840
Okay, give it a try.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.239
And then they did it, it's like, oh, you said you couldn't do it.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:18.639
Yep.
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:21.599
Well, well, I guess I guess I can do it.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.400
And then they're saying it to them, not you saying it to them.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:25.280
That's right.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:26.239
Yeah.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.159
I mean, is that something you do?
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:29.039
Oh my goodness.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:38.480
So my some of my favorite moments are when uh if we if a kid's learning a thing and they call me out and they come like Mr.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:39.599
Brooks, I can't do this.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:40.239
I can't do this.
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:41.199
Like, they can't do it?
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:41.920
No, all right.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:50.159
Um can you what so so what what's and and m my follow-up pretty much 100% of the time is like, all right, um, what what is challenging about this for you?
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.840
Like what is hard about this for you?
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.760
And more often than not, they can answer.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:58.079
They can they can say like, like, I can't move my fingers fast enough, or I can't, like if they're learning Dulcimer, for example.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.400
Um, I can't get my fingers won't turn in that way.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:07.599
Like, all right, well, uh well, like what if you try doing like if you use these fingers in this way for you know, so I offer them some suggestions, whatever.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.559
That's the support.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:09.199
And that's the support.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:10.000
That's the support.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.559
Yeah, that's them sort of like offering another way through.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:17.280
It's not just saying you can do it, it's giving them, it's giving them sort of the alternate way to approach the problem.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:24.000
And then, you know, they try it and like they try it, and if they find their success, they do it.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:31.760
And uh, you know, my my mantra, like whenever they're learning anything, is if you get something once, it's luck.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.599
If you get it three times in a row accurately, you got skill.
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:38.400
And the kid's like, like, oh, that totally makes sense.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.840
Yeah, if you get it once, yeah, you're lucky.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.880
If you get it three times in a row accurately, you got a skill.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.639
And that and and that's sort of the success for the for for the day.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:56.000
Um but if a kid takes the takes the redirector, takes the instruction, and they do it, and they get it once, I'm like, you just landed it.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:57.280
Can you like can you do that again?
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.079
And they do it, and they like oftentimes they'll do it again.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:10.719
The way I just like to leave it because I'm playful that way, is that after they get it, like they're smiling, they're feeling good, and and I'll say, like, don't give me this nonsense that you can't do this.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:11.360
Yeah.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:11.760
Yeah.
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:13.920
And then I just walk away.
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:22.320
And because they're sort of left with they're left feeling that like, wow, like, and to your point, like they instead, like, wow, I guess I can do it.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.760
And then more often than not, that carries them through the rest of the class.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:37.599
It's uh it's about sitting with them in their in their frustration, in the in their I can't do it-ness, and sitting with them in that and helping them find that new direction out of it.
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.960
Um that's that foundation of confidence that you were talking about.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:41.519
Yeah.
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:47.519
Um you're from that like like the learning pit, like sort of like have you seen like the like the picture of the learning pit?
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:48.559
Are you familiar with this?
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:54.800
Kid down in the pit saying, like, uh, if a kid wants to learn something, there's like there's the thing, and then there's like the pit of learning and out the other side.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:56.320
And like, oh, I want to try the thing.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.199
They get down in the pit.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.920
This is hard, I can't figure it out, I can't do this, blah, blah, blah.
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:05.440
And inevitably, like, there's a you know, there's a teacher waiting on the other side for like the you can do it, you can do it.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:11.039
And you always have sort of, as a as a teacher, you have two choices for how you can sort of interact with that kid who's struggling.
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:24.559
One is you can sort of like offer your hand down and say, like, come on, you can do it, you can do it, and like sort of like pull them, you know, just to sort of carry the um the metaphor further, literally pull them out of the pit by saying, like, come on, you can do it and do this and do this and do this.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:31.760
And you literally like pull them out of the pit where they didn't really do all the things on their own, but at least they're sort of out of the pit where they've sort of learned it.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:32.239
Right.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.280
Option two is get down in the pit with them.
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:35.760
Yeah.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.440
Is the teacher literally hop down the pit?
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:38.079
Yeah, this is hard.
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:38.960
This is this is really hard.
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:40.480
How are we gonna get out of this pit?
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:43.360
And you help them develop the skills to get out themselves.
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:45.440
And those are the moments that stick.
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.119
Those are the moments that be like, oh yeah, I can do it on my own.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:57.840
And you help them get out of the pit on their own, and then they need to, you know, they ask for your help like a little bit less every day because they feel that much more confident about their abilities.
00:43:58.239 --> 00:43:59.760
So everything you are talking about.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:13.760
I've just been writing down the things, the kind of the different things people can do or the ways that people can be to be with a a let's just say a non-typical student, which is honestly, which is most of them.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:14.480
Yeah.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:20.719
Like realistically, a kid comes in your room, they're going to have something that makes things not.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:22.079
I'm thinking about my own.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.440
I I'm only teaching privately right now because I'm doing so much traveling.
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:41.360
I would say that the the number of typical students in my studio, I've got 25 kids, maybe four of them don't have something going on between trauma, autism, ADHD, uh some sort of family situation.
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.199
What I'm hearing you say is that you have you need to be creative.
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:47.519
You have to be collaborative.
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:53.679
I heard patience, I heard patience explicitly, you said it explicitly, you said it implicitly.
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:54.880
Patience is huge.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:55.920
Empathy.
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:56.400
Yeah.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:58.480
So huge.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.760
Uh joy, just refusing to get frustrated.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.079
If you're not having a good time teaching your class, your kids aren't going to have a good time taking it.
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:06.559
Yeah.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:08.800
Like if you're not actively having a good time.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:09.599
Yeah.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.559
Understanding.
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:12.719
And then just like you said love.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:19.679
I wrote down care and then I crossed it out and wrote love because you have to have love to research ways that you can help kids.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:28.960
Like if you don't care about that kid, if there's not care and love there, you're not going to go to their, you're not going to go find their language teacher and say, What are you doing there?
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.159
How can I use it here?
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:30.559
Yeah.
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:32.880
You know, that's that requires care.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:33.440
Yeah.
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:37.760
And to all the teachers listening to this, we all like to think that we love our students.
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:38.239
And we do.
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:44.239
We're there because we want to share the love of music and sort of what it has, in theory, what it has brought to our lives.
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:48.480
We want them to sort of be able to experience their version of that love, right, through music.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:50.239
That's what we all want for our students.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:51.039
We all care.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:57.760
We all care enough that we want to grant our students access to the glorious world that is music.
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:08.639
And if that's the mission, then yeah, we have to figure out sort of how to bring the world of music to them rather than the other way around.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:20.079
Rather than you know, helping our kids rise to the music, we gotta bring that music down into the sandbox and give them every opportunity to play with it in the ways that work for them and achieve things in the ways that work for them.
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:24.159
Yeah, that was the last thing I had written down is if you really care, you'll adapt.
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:25.199
That's right.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:26.239
You'll adapt.
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:27.679
You got you gotta.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.639
Yeah, otherwise you get you get frustration and you get sadness.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:50.239
And um, you know, for the kids who, you know, for the kids who do love it and for whom it doesn't click with, if you want to be like extra proactive, like if, you know, I'm sure we've all had experience of kids who, you know, who want to be want to be musical, but things just don't click in the ways that they really like want them to.
00:46:51.440 --> 00:47:05.119
Uh you know, I'm sure that we've all had those students who uh some students who like come to you and say, like, hey, I really want to do this, but I'm just having I'm I'm having trouble understanding this or doing this.
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:11.599
There are also students who just like who want to keep that part of themselves a secret, who will who just like who suffer in silence, right?
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:22.239
Who don't want to make a big to-do out of their just you know, out of their struggle with something like this, just because like like maybe they just don't want to have to deal with it in that context.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:22.719
Like who knows?
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.480
Could be a million different things.
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:29.599
But how how loving is it?
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:39.440
How caring is it to just take like a loving moment after class to just like touch base and connect with that kid saying, like, hey, how are you doing?
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:49.679
Like, I like I I noticed in class you were really like struggling with this thing, and knowing that like not just that you see it, but that like, hey, like I I care about you having a good time in this class.
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:53.440
Is there anything I can do to like just help you enjoy this class a little more?
00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:00.960
That kid will be that kid will carry around like that little bit of like happiness and connection for the rest of their day.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:10.239
To know that, like, to know that they are seen and that they that they are seen and that there's an adult there who wants to help them enjoy something that hopefully that they enjoy.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.559
It's the greatest thing in the world.
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:22.000
And hopefully they come in the next day and maybe they're a little bit more open to how willing they are to like work with you to figure something out.
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:22.960
Yeah.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:26.480
And honestly, that that makes your program uncuttable.
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:35.199
It makes people it makes people stay with you because that care, that support is so special, especially in the context of music.
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:41.280
Adam, I can't wait to have another conversation with you really soon because there are a bunch of things I want to talk to you about.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:50.239
I'd love to talk about this learning pit again because I can just hear a ton of people listening to this going, tell me more about how to be good at that.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.280
And uh shame, this is an absolutely shameless plug.
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:56.719
If you are really like, I need more tools, come.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.800
Well, first of all, join the community if you're not already in the community, but then do the training.
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:03.199
If you are desperate for those tools, come join the training.
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:06.320
Um, Adam, I can't wait to talk to you again.
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:07.840
This has been amazing.
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:09.119
Thank you so much for coming.
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:10.079
Yeah, I have I have loved it.
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:10.639
This is super fun.
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:11.360
Can't wait to do it again.
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:12.000
Thanks, Allison.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:12.480
Yeah.
00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:13.599
All right, talk to you soon.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.320
Ciao.
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:14.960
Bye-bye.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:15.760
Bye.
00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:09.599
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Making Musicians Podcast, a podcast of the I Am Music Foundation.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:10.960
Hope you enjoy.
00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.679
What I'm hearing you say is that you need to be creative.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:17.920
You have to be collaborative.
00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:19.600
I heard patience.
00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:28.559
I knew early on that a non-standard school uh demanded a non-standard approach to music, which my whole path has been non-standard into music.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:36.560
Hey everybody, thank you for joining us and welcome to the Making Musician Studio.
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:39.679
I can't wait for you guys to meet this person.
00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:43.119
I have loved getting to know him.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:52.159
Uh he reached out to me, and it has just been it's been this fantastic opportunity to get to meet somebody in a really unique space.
00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:57.359
And here's what I want, here's what I want to tell you about the both of us because we have this in common.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:03.119
Neither of us took a traditional path to music education.
00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:04.879
Neither one of us have music ed degrees.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:05.359
So too.
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.920
And then we became music educators.
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.359
You know my story, but Adam, tell us your story.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:13.680
Tell us what you do and tell us about Carol.
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:14.480
All right.
00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:25.840
Um, so yeah, uh, my name is Adam, and I am the uh performing arts teacher who teaches music and drama at the Carroll School uh in Lincoln, Massachusetts, which is about 45 minutes an hour outside of Boston.
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:28.000
I have been teaching at this school.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:30.079
I just wrapped up my 13th year of teaching there.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:36.079
I had the great pleasure of designing this school's music curriculum entirely from scratch.
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:42.560
When I first came into the school 13 years ago, they had had a couple little um bits and pieces of music like in the middle school.
00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:53.280
Uh they have a lower school campus, which is basically the version of the elementary school, and they have um they had a guy there, um, uh Pat Page, who's like a phenomenal teacher in himself, who uh teaches lower school and is still here today.
00:01:53.439 --> 00:02:02.640
Um but for my journey, I came into the middle school through way of the the drama teacher, because the drama was like advocating for uh the middle school to have music.
00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:09.039
And um yeah, they had like bits and pieces of some kind of music program for a long time.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:19.280
When I came in there, I had the joy of being able to build a curriculum for these like glorious, wonderful brains that they had at this school.
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:29.599
You know, the school was a very non-standard school, and so I knew early on that a non-standard school uh demanded a non-standard approach to music, which my whole path has been non-standard into music.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:44.960
Uh, you know, I was in uh youth theater a lot before I became a teacher, so I was a songwriter, playwright, and so I worked with uh kids from you know uh first grade, like all the way through high school and adults, just like like teaching songs to musical theater and worked at a ton of summer camps doing various music things.
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:51.120
So music education and just working with kids, I've it's been a big part of my life for pretty much my entire adult life.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:58.479
So tell me about Carol, because Carol, you said it's for non-traditional students, but like what is Carol's mission?
00:02:58.560 --> 00:02:59.280
What are they doing?
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.439
Who's in your classes every day?
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:08.479
So Carol is um one of the foremost institutions for kids with language-based learning difficulties, such as dyslexia.
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:21.360
Um we you know, we casually say they'll like the school for dyslexic kids, but dyslexia is a very like broad term that sort of um uh yeah, sort of like envelops a lot of um a lot of different uh sort of neurological elements.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:39.840
Um there is like a Carol profile for like what a what a Carol kid is, and they all have like some shade or flavor of dyslexia, and oftentimes that comes with uh sometimes ADHD, sometimes some auditory processing issues, um, and like other various things that sort of like come with that neurological profile.
00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.400
I teach middle school kids, so it's all sixth, seventh, and eighth grade.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.759
I have taught like a little bit of uh a little bit in ninth grade as well.
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:59.039
But um, yeah, all of the kids who I teach, um, you know, all IEP kids, obviously, um who uh just all have differently wired brains who have some kind of difficulty encoding and decoding written language.
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:00.639
Oh my goodness.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.759
So you teach so every kid in your class has an IEP?
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:15.599
Every uh it's a specialty school, like it's an independent school specifically for kids who have been in one way or another sort of like failed by uh their other schools that just in their other schools just have not clicked for them.
00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:19.040
In my thoroughly unbiased opinion, of course, it's a pretty magical place.
00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:35.360
Um it is a cool place where kids who just have not been able to find success in other schools can come to feel understood and supported and just give them a really just solid foundation to just help them learn and become more confident lifelong learners.
00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:52.079
So you came into this school that is full of kids with IEPs, and it's it's specifically for language-based learning difficulties, but you mentioned there's a ton of ADHD because learning-based language difficulties are comorbid with a ton of other stuff.
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:52.720
That's right.
00:04:52.879 --> 00:05:10.160
And I'm just I'm imagining if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking about all the kids with IEPs in my classrooms and how overwhelming that can feel to think of a whole classroom full of kids with IEPs, and then you designed the program for them.
00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:11.120
Yes.
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.759
What was that like?
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:22.399
I come from a big background, just like coming from the world of theater, I come from a background of you know creativity and collaboration and experimentation.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:23.519
Like that's sort of what that is.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:24.399
Short story.
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:34.560
My very first year at Carol, um, my my former uh now retired uh partner, Shay Chattel, I was talking about her like, like, what exactly do you want me to do here?
00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:39.920
Like what what like do you want me to try and like you know, re-like just like reinvigorate the stuff that you had done before?
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.240
Or do you want me to like come up with some new stuff?
00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:42.959
What do you want me to do?
00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:44.160
Like, which one do you want me to do?
00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.800
And she looked at me totally straight face and just said, both.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.480
And so I said, uh oh uh okay.
00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.079
All right, sure, why not?
00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:52.480
Let's do it.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:06:00.879
Uh like you mentioned before, like I had I had never taken a music education course in my life, but I knew music and I knew kids and I knew education.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:13.759
And I had a sort of long history through all my various institutions of just developing programming and curriculum based on kids and needs.
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.439
I've been doing that for a long time.
00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:18.800
You know what you said that completely fascinated me?
00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:31.120
Because you're like, I because of the theater and where I came from and and what you had practiced before of creativity and collaboration, that you were equipped because you were creative and collaborative.
00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:46.160
I'm kind of wondering at this point how often a a music teacher in a typical school or a music teacher who is teaching a curriculum to private students feels free to be creative and collaborative.
00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.720
I mean, that is, I mean, it's a$64,000 question, right?
00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:58.319
I'm extremely fortunate to work for an institution that basically gave me free reign.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.079
They knew that music was good for kids.
00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:06.639
They knew they wanted to have music for kids, but there's no standardized curriculum for music with dyslexic kids.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.800
Like, you know, here's a curriculum for teaching dyslexic kids.
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:09.199
Here, go.
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:10.319
No, it doesn't exist.
00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:10.879
Yeah.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:12.639
They knew that music was good.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:17.759
They didn't know all the reasons why music was good, but they're like, most schools offer music, so we want to offer music.
00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.079
Um, go figure out how to teach our kids music.
00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:21.279
And that was pretty much it.
00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.079
And they they just sort of left me alone to do that.
00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.920
They just trusted, like, all right, we're hiring you to teach music to our kids, go teach music to our kids.
00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.160
I knew from the beginning there were two ways I could do it.
00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:44.240
One, I could look at sort of how everybody else did it and sort of like try and custom tailor standard curriculum to these kids, but I knew pretty much immediately, like, no, these are non-standard students with non-standard brains.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:50.000
So why on earth would I try to apply a standard curriculum with standard rules and standard lessons to a non-standard system?
00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:51.360
Like, that's ridiculous.
00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:52.720
That's utterly ridiculous.
00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:53.920
That's utterly ridiculous.
00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.120
Like, that's gonna just it's just gonna result in in headaches.
00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:59.279
So I had to start from the ground up.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:10.720
I knew I had to take all of my knowledge of music and just put it in the sandbox and just see what kind of sandcastle I could build with the kids.
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.160
You know, because I knew, like, I knew I wasn't just gonna do it by myself.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:34.000
I'm like, all right, this is gonna be kind of a this is gonna be a laboratory too, where I'm just gonna try out a lot of things I and and consider what I believed to be important for a music experience to be with kids, like what I wanted them to get out of it and all my curriculum around that.
00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:43.840
Okay, so here if here's my question because you just said something that is really compelling.
00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:48.480
You said, what do I think is important for kids to know about music?
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:54.960
Now, if I'm listening to if I'm listening to this, I I'm probably coming to this from a few different places.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:01.120
First, I might be coming to this where it's like, uh, this is the curriculum I've always been told to teach.
00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:02.639
So this is the one I teach.
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:04.320
It tells me what's important to teach.
00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:09.279
That and so that might have just blown my mind where you got to start from where you believe.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.759
But I also, if I'm listening to this and thinking to myself, hold on.
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.000
I want to know what he thinks is important because he's at a school with language-based learning difficulties.
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:29.200
Is he teaching those kids how to read music or are they all just some people might be thinking messing around?
00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:30.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:38.799
And this is sort of where uh, you know, I have a few like hot takes on this that, you know, like because the idea of like what are you supposed to teach in music class?
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:44.000
Yeah, that you have sort of like a curriculum, and you know, but the state says that this is what you're supposed to teach.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:45.120
This is what kids need to know.
00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:49.519
I'll give a little like little tangent thing, but I promise this is related.
00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:59.279
When it comes to following rules, like I am uh I am very much an advocate of like learn the rules, master the rules, break the rules, just as like a general life philosophy.
00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:07.440
And you know, there are people who are rule followers and there are people who are rule questioners slash rule breakers, that's whatever.
00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:25.519
And one of the things that's you know I like to advocate to my students, and certainly a belief that I have, is that I believe it is more valuable to understand why a rule is in place than to just blindly follow a rule.
00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:36.320
Because when you have when you have that understanding, then it just like it helps you not only understand why the rule is in place, but it helps you operate within and around the rules, I guess.
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:42.559
You know, I'm not advocating being like like break the rules and another thing, but um, it just helps to sort of develop things.
00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:52.799
And I feel like when we are given a curriculum to say like this is important, you know, just asking the why of things like why, why is it important that we teach this?
00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:54.720
Why is why is it important that they learn notation?
00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:01.840
Why is it important that they learn how to properly draw a treble clef on the like like on a staff line?
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.279
Why is it important that they know their quarter notes, their eighth notes, their sixteenth notes?
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.159
You know, these are all valid and wonderful questions to ask.
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:21.919
But like for me, in my development of things, I'm like, well, I know I'm gonna have these kids, like the way that our program works um um in different grades, you know, kids rotate through the different specials just like they do, I think, in a lot of schools.
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.480
So they'll um, like for example, the sixth graders see me twice over the course of the year.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.279
They see me once for drama where I teach them uh improv, and then they come a second time for music.
00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:33.600
And each one of those is about four weeks.
00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.679
You know, and see me like every day for four weeks.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:45.519
And so I'm thinking, well, if I'm gonna design an experience, uh a music experience for it's like four weeks of music, what do I want that to be?
00:11:45.600 --> 00:12:02.159
What's gonna give them the most bang for their buck to make the program as accessible, as engaging, as fun, um, and as interesting as it can possibly be, knowing that I have this population to work with.
00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:06.159
And uh, you know, you asked about notation before.
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.840
Um, you know, hot take, hot take, especially given this particular community.
00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.480
I think music literacy is kind of bullshit.
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.399
Um, tell me more.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:24.879
I know that a lot of people put a lot of not a lot of pressure, but just a lot of uh importance on being able to decipher notes and read notes because, yeah, in a lot of way, like that is the language of our craft, right?
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:29.759
That overwhelmingly our music has been um written in little dots on the page.
00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:44.080
Which um, you know, um if you have, you know, the little kids learn, if they have a circle with a line, you know, if they see a circle with a line, they can interpret that in their brain as a B or a D or a P or a Q if we're interpreting it as a letter.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:53.360
Um but, you know, we have a circle with a line can also be a quarter note or an eighth note or a half note, depending on how those things are written.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:59.600
And we're not interpreting it into a uh into a letter, but we're interpreting it into a symbol that has meaning.
00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:12.879
So it is less about the you know understanding that like a B makes the b sound, but if I see an open circle with a line next to it, I know that that means I'm going to play this particular note and I'm gonna hold it for two beats.
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:20.080
So you're still interpreting symbols and you're interpreting them like spatially rather than phonetically.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:27.200
But um, you know, that our language is a language just like any other, which takes time to process and understand.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:56.559
And if I only have four weeks with a kid, and I know these kids are like already literally spending their whole year like deciphering squiggles on the page to interpret meaning, I don't want to spend four weeks with them, like trying to teach them notation when there are so many other experiences and ways for them to get to music quicker and faster that is just as enjoy that is uh way more enjoyable, way more expedient, and still super fun and engaging that do not require any notation.
00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:59.279
Um, that's one of the great things about our medium.
00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:14.320
Like the fact that music can be attacked from so many different directions and be interpreted so many different ways that uh it's like like like no, I'm not gonna waste time on notation when these kids can be experiencing all the glory of music with it with none of it.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.799
Um I want kids to experience the joy of playing in a band.
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:23.679
I want kids to be able to write and play their own music without ever touching standard notation.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:24.480
And they do.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:35.600
You know, I've researched a whole lot of like other ways of just you know um creating, recording uh stuff down that is just way more kid friendly and the kids have a blast with it.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.320
I love everything about that.
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:48.480
Um, mostly because I think that it is so easy to get stuck in first you teach a quarter note and you say, this is a quarter note, this is what it does, this is what happens.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.720
And and that's the that's the standard.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.720
You teach the name of the note, you teach what it does, you have them execute on it.
00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:02.080
From a brain perspective, that's actually a little bit backwards, but that's a whole other conversation that we would need another podcast for.
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:16.240
But then to actually be like, if I were a teacher listening to this and I was thinking about my IEP kids and thinking, wait a minute, can I get them more involved if I pay attention to their IEP and go, you know what?
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.159
I want you to be involved with the class.
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:21.919
We are all doing this, it's true, we're all doing this notation stuff.
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.240
Uh, what if I gave you the ability to do something just a little bit different for you?
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.480
What if they had the freedom to do that?
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.399
I'm kind of wondering what people are thinking about that particular question.
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.120
Like, wait, can I do that with IEP class?
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.559
I think that depends on administration.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.360
But of course.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.080
The next question would be are you creative enough?
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:41.200
Are you brave enough?
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:46.320
I mean, that must have for for you, you mentioned you're you're used to creativity and collaboration.
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:51.279
But I wonder how much bravery it would take for a music teacher to be able to actually execute on this idea.
00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.559
It comes back to just the idea about like, you know, like learn the rules, master the rules, break the rules.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:13.519
Where if the idea behind teaching a kid notation is to give them access to like, you know, like playing a song, you know, if if you want to teach them sort of the notation for twinkle, twinkle, little star, for example, and do you want them to be able to read the notes so they can understand it, it's like, well, that's fine.
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:21.679
Are there other ways that you can give them access to twinkle, twinkle, little star, say, you know, on an orph instrument on a xylophone without ever writing a note?
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:23.759
And the answer is yes, of course there is.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:28.480
Um, you can do it with pictures, you can do it with letters, you can do it with the, you can do it with a video.
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:39.440
There are so many ways into any given musical endeavor that to feel like we are just tethered to one because that's the way it's always been done.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.799
Tradition is a terrible reason to do anything.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:17:06.000
Yes, we have our we have our traditions in the world of music education and Western music, but the moment we stop questioning things, the moment we stop, you know, looking for uh just other ways that can make our craft more inclusive of like all brains and all processing, like, then we're being sort of like deliberately exclusionary.
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.240
You know, it turns into a world of uh of ableism.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:22.799
Like one of my colleagues who teaches at um uh a similar school to me out in Pennsylvania um said something that stuck with me that sort of uh Western music tradition and Western music education is kind of one of the last bastions of racism and ableism in our culture.
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:25.920
I actually that was the next thing I was going to ask you about.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:36.079
So can you please, in case anybody hasn't heard that term ableism, can you please define it and then tell me more about what you just said?
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:46.880
Ableism is basically it is a prejudice or discrimination against individuals who can't do certain physical cognitive things.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.960
It basically assumes that's capable is normal.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.359
That if you can do something, that is normal.
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.920
If you can't do this thing, then you're disabled, that you are less than.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.559
And how many stories, Alison?
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:12.240
How many stories has every single music teacher ever had of a singer in a chorus that can't match pitch being told, just mouth the words in the back?
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.680
You know, or maybe just just mouth the words, just don't sing along.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:23.680
Or uh the kid who has like the piano, uh, you know, has a piano thing who just like who can't interpret the notes who has difficulty holding rhythm under here.
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.480
And that teacher says, Maybe music just isn't for you.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:34.640
Okay, so I uh one of it's funny because um yeah, you you we first got introduced because you were watching my videos.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:47.519
One of my most viral videos was uh I hear I don't want to say I hear frequently because I'm lucky enough that um I'm lucky enough that I am I'm swimming in waters with people like you.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:55.839
But I before before this popped off, people would tell me, you know what, I just feel like we really need to weed people out of music.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:01.359
And I think the assumption there, the assumption there is that you are weeding people.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.880
Let's let's do the best possible construction on that idea of weeding people out of music.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.279
Let's say that we believed in the idea of lazy, right?
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:18.000
So sure, we're weeding lazy people out of music who aren't who are not trying their best, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.039
And we assume that they aren't trying their best and they are capable.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:28.319
I think the reality is when you're weeding people out of music, you are weeding the people out that you are talking about.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.720
People who need something a little bit different.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:31.200
That's right.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.359
But you are you're keeping them out.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:34.720
You're you're keeping them out.
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:35.200
That's right.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.799
So anyway, I'm just that's right.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:43.119
But yeah, sort of like just to like echo your point, I feel like so much of music is like, here's the music you want to achieve.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.920
And in order to achieve this, you gotta be able to do A, B, and C.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:20:07.279
And then you have the student down here who's like, Well, I can sort of do A and B, and I want to be able to do C, but my brain won't let me, depending on the facilitator, the teacher who's there saying, like, well, just practice more, just practice harder, and doesn't give them the guidance, the understanding, the support they're actually looking for.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:08.799
It's just like, well, this is the way I learned.
00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.759
I had to be able to do A, B, and C in order to be a musician, and I got there.
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.920
So if I got there, you can get there.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:15.920
And then they can't do it.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.160
And the teacher just decides, okay, you can't do it, and then maybe, maybe you just can't do it.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.279
Music isn't for you.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:22.640
Music isn't for you.
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.440
And it breaks my heart every single time.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:30.400
Like, how many adults have I met who uh, you know, was like, like, hey, let's go up to karaoke.
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.680
And she's like, Yeah, I like I don't sing.
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:42.240
I was told by a teacher back when I was 12 that I couldn't sing, and there they are, decades later, it ends up tattooed on your soul, and it's just tragic every time I hear it.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.039
Yeah.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.559
I and you know what?
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:50.480
I not only did I live that, I heard a story of it this week because I mean, and you you just you just got my book.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:56.799
This is not a plug for my book, but you just got my book, and I start that story with I was a little girl who struggled to sight read.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.799
Not I don't have dyslexia.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.160
What I have is uh autism and ADHD.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:08.240
So I was looking at the notes and struggling to to do one note after another after another after another.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:14.960
And so I would learn by ear, and my teacher would be so frustrated because she'd be like, Why aren't you looking at the at the music, Alison?
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:24.319
And it became such a conflict because I was struggling to do the thing she asked me to do, and I was considered sort of naughty.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:24.799
Yeah.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.240
Not not struggling, naughty.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.240
You weren't following directions, you weren't doing it the way you were supposed to do it.
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:32.799
Right.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.480
With the assumption that I could do it the way, like that I that because she told me to do it that way, I should have been able to do it that way.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.799
I heard another one that was super interesting.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:52.799
I was I was doing a training at a school of rock and bend, and I was sitting there, we were talking through our musical stories, and um that same thing with who told like who told you?
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.240
Who told you you can't do music?
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.519
And there's this guy, this incredibly capable pianist who was trying to do something at a university.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.880
Here in Oregon, and he was a non-major.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:11.599
And everywhere he turned when he was trying to do mus uh music in the in the music program, they're like, Well, we usually don't offer this to non-majors.
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.920
We usually don't offer this to non-majors.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:24.319
And it wasn't, they're like, We're only letting you in because we don't have a major who wants to do it, even though he was more capable than a bunch of the majors.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.240
It it's just very interesting.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:27.519
It's very, very interesting.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:29.920
All right, if we're trade, if we're trading stories.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.960
All right, uh, let's do it.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:31.839
Sorry, first story.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.000
I had a student who I was working with privately.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.200
Uh uh, she was the friend of a Carol student I had who had taken my piano class.
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:43.200
Like she was an eighth grader, um, taking my piano class, and she had a uh a friend who lived right next door to her.
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:52.000
And um the Carol student basically like took all of my entire piano curriculum and asked for all the worksheets and brought it home to her, and like they were both dyslexic.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.960
And so they just had a blast like going through like all of my worksheets and just sort of like playing music together on the piano.
00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.200
So um this girl, uh, Elise ended up being my private student.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.319
She loved to sing.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.680
This girl absolutely loved to sing, and she was um coming to me and asking, like, I kind of want to try it for senior districts.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:13.279
And she's like, But I'm kind of worried about it because there's a sight singing portion of it.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:25.279
She could read music, she had an incredible work ethic and like worked very hard, and she could read music, um, but you know, again, like just like the way she processed language affected the way that she read cheat music, and she just needed extra time.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.200
And so she's like, I don't I don't know if I should audition for this.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:40.079
You know, as anyone out there who's sort of had uh experience with senior districts knows, like the kids who do senior districts come together and learn a whole lot of music in a very, very short period of time and then go up and like do a concert.
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.839
You know, just like a really fun, high, high-intense music learning environment.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:51.359
And so I got really curious, wondering, like, huh, like I wonder if they would they would like accommodate someone who's like who has an IEP, that's dyslexic.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:24:07.279
So I called the head of senior districts, I called and and just asked him straight up, like, hey, I'm working with a student who is considering uh adjusting for senior districts, and she's dyslexic, like she has an IEP, and she knows that she can read music, but she just needs more time.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.400
Like she gets extra um time for her academic work.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.039
Um, I'm wondering, like, would she would she get a little bit of extra consideration for this?
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:21.359
And he paused for a second and he said to me, Well, look, the music is really, really simple.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.200
Like, like anyone who can sing should be able to do it.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:24.799
Like it's really, really simple.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.440
If she if she has any practice, she really should be able to do it.
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:35.920
And I just went like straight up speechless for like 10 straight seconds, just trying to ponder like, how do I even respond to this?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.480
And so I ended up just saying, like, like, uh, okay, like thank you for your time.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.000
Click, hung up the phone.
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:48.799
And I sort of brought this information to the student and her mom and said, like, focus on your own thing.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:50.400
Like, just as focus, focus on your own thing.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.119
Like, I don't know that this that senior district is going to be right for you.
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:53.680
And she did.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:05.200
And um, I ended up um hooking her and her family like up with um uh a guitar player, a friend of mine, she ended up focusing on her guitar, which for her ended up being the right way in because now she's like writing her own songs and singing and loving guitar and all that.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:23.200
But I tell the whole story to say that like that so often the people, you know, at the top of these institutions who are like trying to, you know, keep who want to keep music up on that pedestal as something we should all strive to achieve, I feel like a lot of times it does more harm than good.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:39.519
Because then you have kids who are per who, in theory, would be so so capable and loving and hardworking enough to reach that pedestal if only they had uh that extra uh just support or way in that they needed to reach for it.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:44.640
But it is not as common as it should be for that kind of support to be available.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:45.759
I'll put it that way.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.359
Like, you know, we all want that support to be available.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:59.519
Do you know what breaks my heart about that is you it's interesting even the way that you are the way that you are visualizing that where you have one hand kind of high and another hand kind of low.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.079
Like, well, here's here's this music and then here's these people down here.
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:14.640
And I think the assumption is that the assumption is that music has to stay up there and can't and can't come down.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:21.440
But then the other assumption is the other assumption is if you can't make it up to there, you didn't have anything to give to music anyway.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.559
That's right.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:24.880
Which is nonsense.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:26.960
Absolute BS.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.319
Absolute BS.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:29.839
Like you can't, yeah.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:39.519
It is, I think, so easy for us as educators to say that like, yeah, if you can't make it like a hundred percent to hear, you're not a musician.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:40.400
Um Yeah.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.960
And you have nothing, you're not gonna do anything.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.839
Music, music isn't for you, and you're not going, you don't have anything valuable to give to music that we are willing to invest in.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.559
Yeah.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:55.680
Um I love so I loved um totally not a plug for the book making musician.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:57.039
Totally not a plug.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:58.240
Not not in the slightest.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.279
Um, let me hear your thoughts, because everybody knows my thoughts.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:01.920
They're written down.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:02.799
Tell me your thoughts.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:13.519
Um I to your point, the idea that if you can't that if you can't achieve up here, you're not um yeah, that you're not worthy of music.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:23.039
Um and yeah, it's just it's it's total nonsense because so often the people who then basically those people then just have to find their own way.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:29.519
Like they have to find their own workarounds toward uh toward giving to the world of music in the ways that they can.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:35.920
They have to do it on their own because they don't have the right mentors, the right teachers, the right facilitators to help guide that path.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:52.640
Um, there was an old uh student who graduated from Carroll years ago who was a phenomenal drummer, had incredible music instincts, was a part of uh the lower school had a rock band for a while called the Electric Bears that he was a big part of for a while.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:28:12.720
And he uh you know was an incredible drummer, had incredible musical instincts, but the moment he tried to analyze the dots on the page, the moment he actually tried to like um just like hit a brick wall and was so disheartening uh that he couldn't understand the notes.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:24.720
He uh that kid is uh I haven't seen him in a few years, but the last time I saw him a few years ago, um he is now like he's now making music for movies.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:34.720
He's now full on in like um in in Pro Tools and making incredible electronic music for films and video games and stuff like that.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:36.799
An incredible musician.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:42.799
And maybe somewhere along the way, like he did pick up notation now that he's older and a bit more mature, but he found his own way.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.720
He found his own way into music without ever needing to touch notation.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.119
And you know, you look at people, you know, Elvis Presley, Taylor Swift, Paul McCartney.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.240
Like, you can't tell me that you need to be able to read music to be a successful musician.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:05.519
There are so many glorious counterexamples in the world that show that there are other ways to be a successful um musician, whatever that means to you.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:05.839
You know?
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:06.960
Okay, I have to pause you.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.839
Did you say Paul McCartney was Paul McCartney dyslexic?
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:11.519
I don't oh my gosh.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:16.079
I'm not sure that he was dyslexic, but I know he he doesn't read music, doesn't read a note of music.
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:20.480
I Googled famous musicians with dyslexia, John Lennon.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.359
So if Paul McCartney also had reading difficulties, that would be crazy.
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:34.240
You know, so John Lennon, Cher, Noah Gallagher, who's the primary songwriter for Oasis, as in Can maybe right.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:39.200
Ozzie Osborne, Jewel, Lou Reed, and Tony freaking Bennett.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.680
It says right here he adapted to reading sheet music at his own pace.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:44.400
Yep.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:44.960
Yep.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.240
And that is just like that, it like it makes all the sense in the world.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:49.440
And just like a little bit of research.
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.119
So I just looked up, so Paul McCartney was never officially diagnosed with dyslexia.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:58.720
However, he apparently did have childhood struggles with spelling and memory and formalized music lessons.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:04.000
So again, maybe he just never had quite the right teacher who wanted to understand him and support him in the ways that he needed.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:05.039
And he found his way.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.079
Like he clearly found his way into music in his own way.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:23.680
Which like which so many musicians just have to do because sort of the the formalized system out there that says this is the way through music failed them in some in some way, shape, or form.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.440
Well, okay.
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:31.119
So if you keep music up here and you never bring it down to the person.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:31.599
Yeah.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.559
I say like it's I call it bring it down to the sandbox.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:35.039
Yeah.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.119
I love that visual, actually.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:37.759
That's way better.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:42.000
Like bringing it down to the sandbox, then you miss people who can do amazing things.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.559
I'm just thinking about Billy Holliday.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:45.119
Yeah.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:47.920
Oh, one octave range.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:56.160
Which choir is going to put her, which choir teacher is going to say, Hey, like, let's put you first and foremost.
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.640
And yet she was Billy Freaking Holiday.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:30:59.440
Mm-hmm.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.799
Yep, saying arguably, like arguably the most important song ever, ever written ever.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.359
You know?
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:05.920
Yes.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:07.200
Um, yeah.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:07.920
Yeah.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:08.480
Yeah.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:31.359
Like the the breadth and the depth of talent and work ethic and creativity that is out there in the world that just get like, I don't want to say pushed aside, but that get in some way, shape, or form, like dismissed by the system because it is not the traditional system, because they do not come to music in a traditional way.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:49.039
Um I just feel that's so sad, which is why like sort of bring it back to Carol, like um, you know, uh think of my goal with all of my curriculum, with everything, is to get these kids to success as quickly as possible.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:51.440
Um just one example.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:32:02.000
Um for my piano class, like so I teach an eighth grade group piano class, which is just like uh it was just something that I've always wanted to do.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.599
I wanted to do it um for a while and then I've been like developing it over the years.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:18.559
And like the pledge that I make to every time I teach that class is I say to them on the very first day, even if you've never touched a piano before in your life, you will be on your way to playing or playing your first pop tune by the end of class today.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:20.799
At the end of the next like half an hour.
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.480
And inevitably I get looks from all the kids like, are you kidding me?
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.279
Like I pretty much do the, you know, like I'm uh, you know, just just plunking away at their grandpa's piano at their house.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.960
That like that's the extent of their knowledge.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:40.640
And yet, um, you know, after half an hour of some very basic instruction, they're already playing the three chords to stay with me by Sam Smith.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:41.119
Yeah.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:42.400
And they're playing those.
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:46.640
So within 20 minutes, they are feeling successful at their instrument.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:56.160
That's how you get kids engaged, like getting them to a place where they can feel that success, feel musical success that they've never felt before on short order.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:01.920
Um and if you get them there, they are hooked because they know they can now.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:08.319
They know they can, that their brain can get to like, holy crap, I'm playing a song and I've never touched a piano before.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:10.160
What else am I capable of?
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.880
And then, you know, then come with, you know, come with me and the Pied Piper's leading them on.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:26.000
So let's play devil's advocate here for a second and say that somebody was listening to this and being like, okay, great, you make kids feel excited about music in their first lesson, but what happens when music gets hard?
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.960
Because music, music gets hard whether you're reading or not.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.799
And what happens if a kid really wants to learn how to read music and they have dyslexia?
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:35.440
Then what?
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.480
Do we just say, no, you can't and you should focus on this other stuff?
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:49.200
Or do you is there ways like how do you help a dyslexic kid learn how to read music if that's really what they want to do and still be happy about it?
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:49.920
Mm-hmm.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.519
Uh great question.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:11.280
Uh so I have like, having done it with like a number of my kids, um, you understand that the same brain that is uh you know working extra hard to interpret uh letters and words is going to function in a very similar way to notation.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:19.119
Um it's because it's symbolic, because it's a slightly different like form of reading than like than reading letters and words.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:37.119
Uh it's going into that process with an understanding that it is going to take them more time, different angles, additional resources, that um they're not just going to like you know click into understanding these squiggles on the page, if they're struggling to understand like letters and words, those squiggles on the page.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:41.679
Like for them, understanding and decoding squiggles on a page is a challenge.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:48.480
And the first step toward anyone is about knowing that, validating that, and understanding that.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:55.920
Uh like if I were in another school where I knew a kid said, like, like, like, hey, I'm dyslexic, I would go talk to their language teachers.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:05.199
I would go talk to their English teacher and even talk to their parents to say, hey, what are the strategies that um what are what sort of like additional helper strategies are you offering them?
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.239
Is the school offering them?
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:07.599
Like takes a village, right?
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.000
Like it takes a village to help support these kids sometimes.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:30.559
And if you get that understanding, just get like whatever pieces you can, and you look at like, all right, if this kid is using um uh uh you know, like extra uh um tactile support of like just, you know, like like feeling the shape of lighters under their fingers or using um different filters um to help them analyze things.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:37.599
Like tools that are used for dyslexia can often be like often used straight or can just be adapted to sheet music.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:47.679
Um but really it's coming in with the same empathy and patience and understanding as a language teacher who gets the same thing.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.639
Like if you can't bring those things to the table, everyone gets shot in the foot.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.360
Yeah.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:05.760
You know, you gotta understand the brain first and you gotta work on building the comfort and the confidence uh that that kid can do what they are hoping to do before you actually dig into the material.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.679
Like if you can't do go ahead.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:09.920
Oh no, no, no, please continue.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:26.159
I do this in my improv classes too, that uh like if you're gonna learn anything, like if you're gonna start to like build a skill or try to build a skill, then you gotta sort of build up the bedrock of the of the kids' confidence and commitment to doing the thing first.
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:33.119
And you know, build that trust between you and the student to be like, I'm gonna help you get there.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:48.960
We are like we are gonna work through this, we're gonna work together to help understand what you're processing, how you're processing it, um, and we're gonna work together to figure out how to best get you from point A to point B, whether that is just like playing a song or understanding notation or whatever.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.880
Um it's a collaboration.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.440
It's a collaboration, like it's it's a team effort.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:59.519
But if you don't have an understanding of your student first, it's you everyone's just gonna end up frustrated.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:05.199
If you so what you just said, you have to build a bedrock of confidence in your students.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:05.840
Mm-hmm.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.519
Tell me more about that because that seems like a huge deal.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.599
It's so easy to just jump into this is what you need to know.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.320
Mm-hmm.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:23.119
If there are feelings of this is hard or I can't do this or whatever, um, it is it is so easy.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:29.440
It is so easy just to go into blind encouragement, uh just blind encouragement.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.280
The sure you can, yes, you can do it.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:32.400
Come on, you can do it.
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.480
Um I have seen f way too many adults who offer encouragement without support.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.199
And like those two things Okay, pause.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:41.679
Pause.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.039
Encouragement without support.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.400
Tell me more about that.
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:45.440
All right.
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.599
Um I've seen so there's encouragement and there's support.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.119
They are two sides of the same coin.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:55.679
It is so easy to give encouragement.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:03.119
It is much more difficult to provide appropriate support for the appropriate things for a given kid.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.000
It is easy for us to say, come on, you can do it.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:07.840
Like, I know you can do it, I believe in you.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:08.960
That's easy.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:11.199
Anyone can give encouragement.
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:25.920
But unless you are ready and prepared and capable of giving a kid the support they need and the insight they need and the love they need to take that step toward it, like it's love, people.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:26.400
It's love.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.440
Everything comes back to love.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:32.239
Umless you are ready to give those things along with the encouragement, nothing happens.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:38.079
I I just had a conversation with some with some teachers who were new teachers, right?
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.440
Relatively new teachers, very good at their instrument, relatively new teachers.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:49.760
And one of the things that we super hammered, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, one of the things we super hammered is people believe what they say to them.
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:56.400
They do not necess so they they do not necessarily believe what you say to them.
00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:01.679
Just the uh a mid-brained, the emotional part of the brain believes what you say to you.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:13.199
When when somebody says, like if I if if my husband, and and he tried, you know, to get a little personal here, um I grew up always having women compare.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:19.039
This is a completely different place, but always having women compare themselves or say bad things about themselves.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:24.320
Oh, my cellulite this, or I can't fit into my genes, and always just kind of tear themselves down.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.840
And when we got married, my husband would be like, You're so beautiful.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:31.119
And I didn't believe a thing he said.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:42.000
Didn't believe a thing he said because I had seen other people degrade themselves, seen other women degrade themselves, and that became an inner monologue for me.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:42.719
Mm-hmm.
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:43.519
Mm-hmm.
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:54.000
When I made the profound decision based on other conversations with other women that I needed to tell myself that I was beautiful, that's when I started believing it.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.199
Which was so frustrating for my husband because he kept telling me, You are so beautiful, you are so beautiful.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:03.840
So it's really interesting because you're talking about encouragement and support.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:14.000
And in this, in this class that I was teaching, I was like, you you have to get into a kid's self-narrative with them and be like, you know, say, I can't do it.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:14.559
Oh, really?
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.039
You can't do it?
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.840
Okay, give it a try.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.239
And then they did it, it's like, oh, you said you couldn't do it.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:18.639
Yep.
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:21.599
Well, well, I guess I guess I can do it.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.400
And then they're saying it to them, not you saying it to them.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:25.280
That's right.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:26.239
Yeah.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.159
I mean, is that something you do?
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:29.039
Oh my goodness.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:38.480
So my some of my favorite moments are when uh if we if a kid's learning a thing and they call me out and they come like Mr.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:39.599
Brooks, I can't do this.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:40.239
I can't do this.
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:41.199
Like, they can't do it?
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:41.920
No, all right.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:50.159
Um can you what so so what what's and and m my follow-up pretty much 100% of the time is like, all right, um, what what is challenging about this for you?
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.840
Like what is hard about this for you?
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.760
And more often than not, they can answer.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:58.079
They can they can say like, like, I can't move my fingers fast enough, or I can't, like if they're learning Dulcimer, for example.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.400
Um, I can't get my fingers won't turn in that way.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:07.599
Like, all right, well, uh well, like what if you try doing like if you use these fingers in this way for you know, so I offer them some suggestions, whatever.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.559
That's the support.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:09.199
And that's the support.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:10.000
That's the support.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.559
Yeah, that's them sort of like offering another way through.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:17.280
It's not just saying you can do it, it's giving them, it's giving them sort of the alternate way to approach the problem.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:24.000
And then, you know, they try it and like they try it, and if they find their success, they do it.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:31.760
And uh, you know, my my mantra, like whenever they're learning anything, is if you get something once, it's luck.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.599
If you get it three times in a row accurately, you got skill.
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:38.400
And the kid's like, like, oh, that totally makes sense.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.840
Yeah, if you get it once, yeah, you're lucky.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.880
If you get it three times in a row accurately, you got a skill.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.639
And that and and that's sort of the success for the for for the day.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:56.000
Um but if a kid takes the takes the redirector, takes the instruction, and they do it, and they get it once, I'm like, you just landed it.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:57.280
Can you like can you do that again?
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.079
And they do it, and they like oftentimes they'll do it again.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:10.719
The way I just like to leave it because I'm playful that way, is that after they get it, like they're smiling, they're feeling good, and and I'll say, like, don't give me this nonsense that you can't do this.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:11.360
Yeah.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:11.760
Yeah.
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:13.920
And then I just walk away.
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:22.320
And because they're sort of left with they're left feeling that like, wow, like, and to your point, like they instead, like, wow, I guess I can do it.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.760
And then more often than not, that carries them through the rest of the class.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:37.599
It's uh it's about sitting with them in their in their frustration, in the in their I can't do it-ness, and sitting with them in that and helping them find that new direction out of it.
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.960
Um that's that foundation of confidence that you were talking about.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:41.519
Yeah.
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:47.519
Um you're from that like like the learning pit, like sort of like have you seen like the like the picture of the learning pit?
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:48.559
Are you familiar with this?
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:54.800
Kid down in the pit saying, like, uh, if a kid wants to learn something, there's like there's the thing, and then there's like the pit of learning and out the other side.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:56.320
And like, oh, I want to try the thing.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.199
They get down in the pit.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.920
This is hard, I can't figure it out, I can't do this, blah, blah, blah.
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:05.440
And inevitably, like, there's a you know, there's a teacher waiting on the other side for like the you can do it, you can do it.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:11.039
And you always have sort of, as a as a teacher, you have two choices for how you can sort of interact with that kid who's struggling.
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:24.559
One is you can sort of like offer your hand down and say, like, come on, you can do it, you can do it, and like sort of like pull them, you know, just to sort of carry the um the metaphor further, literally pull them out of the pit by saying, like, come on, you can do it and do this and do this and do this.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:31.760
And you literally like pull them out of the pit where they didn't really do all the things on their own, but at least they're sort of out of the pit where they've sort of learned it.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:32.239
Right.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.280
Option two is get down in the pit with them.
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:35.760
Yeah.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.440
Is the teacher literally hop down the pit?
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:38.079
Yeah, this is hard.
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:38.960
This is this is really hard.
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:40.480
How are we gonna get out of this pit?
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:43.360
And you help them develop the skills to get out themselves.
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:45.440
And those are the moments that stick.
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.119
Those are the moments that be like, oh yeah, I can do it on my own.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:57.840
And you help them get out of the pit on their own, and then they need to, you know, they ask for your help like a little bit less every day because they feel that much more confident about their abilities.
00:43:58.239 --> 00:43:59.760
So everything you are talking about.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:13.760
I've just been writing down the things, the kind of the different things people can do or the ways that people can be to be with a a let's just say a non-typical student, which is honestly, which is most of them.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:14.480
Yeah.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:20.719
Like realistically, a kid comes in your room, they're going to have something that makes things not.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:22.079
I'm thinking about my own.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.440
I I'm only teaching privately right now because I'm doing so much traveling.
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:41.360
I would say that the the number of typical students in my studio, I've got 25 kids, maybe four of them don't have something going on between trauma, autism, ADHD, uh some sort of family situation.
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.199
What I'm hearing you say is that you have you need to be creative.
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:47.519
You have to be collaborative.
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:53.679
I heard patience, I heard patience explicitly, you said it explicitly, you said it implicitly.
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:54.880
Patience is huge.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:55.920
Empathy.
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:56.400
Yeah.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:58.480
So huge.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.760
Uh joy, just refusing to get frustrated.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.079
If you're not having a good time teaching your class, your kids aren't going to have a good time taking it.
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:06.559
Yeah.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:08.800
Like if you're not actively having a good time.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:09.599
Yeah.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.559
Understanding.
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:12.719
And then just like you said love.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:19.679
I wrote down care and then I crossed it out and wrote love because you have to have love to research ways that you can help kids.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:28.960
Like if you don't care about that kid, if there's not care and love there, you're not going to go to their, you're not going to go find their language teacher and say, What are you doing there?
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.159
How can I use it here?
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:30.559
Yeah.
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:32.880
You know, that's that requires care.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:33.440
Yeah.
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:37.760
And to all the teachers listening to this, we all like to think that we love our students.
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:38.239
And we do.
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:44.239
We're there because we want to share the love of music and sort of what it has, in theory, what it has brought to our lives.
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:48.480
We want them to sort of be able to experience their version of that love, right, through music.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:50.239
That's what we all want for our students.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:51.039
We all care.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:57.760
We all care enough that we want to grant our students access to the glorious world that is music.
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:08.639
And if that's the mission, then yeah, we have to figure out sort of how to bring the world of music to them rather than the other way around.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:20.079
Rather than you know, helping our kids rise to the music, we gotta bring that music down into the sandbox and give them every opportunity to play with it in the ways that work for them and achieve things in the ways that work for them.
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:24.159
Yeah, that was the last thing I had written down is if you really care, you'll adapt.
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:25.199
That's right.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:26.239
You'll adapt.
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:27.679
You got you gotta.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.639
Yeah, otherwise you get you get frustration and you get sadness.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:50.239
And um, you know, for the kids who, you know, for the kids who do love it and for whom it doesn't click with, if you want to be like extra proactive, like if, you know, I'm sure we've all had experience of kids who, you know, who want to be want to be musical, but things just don't click in the ways that they really like want them to.
00:46:51.440 --> 00:47:05.119
Uh you know, I'm sure that we've all had those students who uh some students who like come to you and say, like, hey, I really want to do this, but I'm just having I'm I'm having trouble understanding this or doing this.
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:11.599
There are also students who just like who want to keep that part of themselves a secret, who will who just like who suffer in silence, right?
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:22.239
Who don't want to make a big to-do out of their just you know, out of their struggle with something like this, just because like like maybe they just don't want to have to deal with it in that context.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:22.719
Like who knows?
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.480
Could be a million different things.
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:29.599
But how how loving is it?
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:39.440
How caring is it to just take like a loving moment after class to just like touch base and connect with that kid saying, like, hey, how are you doing?
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:49.679
Like, I like I I noticed in class you were really like struggling with this thing, and knowing that like not just that you see it, but that like, hey, like I I care about you having a good time in this class.
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:53.440
Is there anything I can do to like just help you enjoy this class a little more?
00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:00.960
That kid will be that kid will carry around like that little bit of like happiness and connection for the rest of their day.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:10.239
To know that, like, to know that they are seen and that they that they are seen and that there's an adult there who wants to help them enjoy something that hopefully that they enjoy.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.559
It's the greatest thing in the world.
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:22.000
And hopefully they come in the next day and maybe they're a little bit more open to how willing they are to like work with you to figure something out.
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:22.960
Yeah.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:26.480
And honestly, that that makes your program uncuttable.
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:35.199
It makes people it makes people stay with you because that care, that support is so special, especially in the context of music.
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:41.280
Adam, I can't wait to have another conversation with you really soon because there are a bunch of things I want to talk to you about.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:50.239
I'd love to talk about this learning pit again because I can just hear a ton of people listening to this going, tell me more about how to be good at that.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.280
And uh shame, this is an absolutely shameless plug.
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:56.719
If you are really like, I need more tools, come.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.800
Well, first of all, join the community if you're not already in the community, but then do the training.
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:03.199
If you are desperate for those tools, come join the training.
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:06.320
Um, Adam, I can't wait to talk to you again.
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:07.840
This has been amazing.
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:09.119
Thank you so much for coming.
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:10.079
Yeah, I have I have loved it.
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:10.639
This is super fun.
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:11.360
Can't wait to do it again.
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:12.000
Thanks, Allison.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:12.480
Yeah.
00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:13.599
All right, talk to you soon.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.320
Ciao.
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:14.960
Bye-bye.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:15.760
Bye.
