19. Nick Marquart - Infinity Labs

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Welcome to Making More, the podcast where high-performing business owners and visionary executives share how they're building more than just bottom lines.
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I'm your host, Billy Fisher, an engineering leader and business and executive coach, and I'm guided by a personal mission to help leaders create clarity, build forward momentum, and make more of what matters most.
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Today I'm excited to be joined by Nick Marquardt, co-founder and chief technology officer at Infinity Labs.
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Nick has helped scale this company from a small startup team into a fast-growing government contractor supporting high-stakes, defense, and mission software, including large-scale modeling and simulation platforms used all across the national landscape.
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And our conversation will dig into what it takes to grow leaders as you scale, how you build a values-driven culture under pressure, and the realities of making the leap from a W2 employee to entrepreneurship.
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Nick, welcome to Making More.
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Well, thanks for having me, Billy.
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I really appreciate it.
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I'm just looking forward to chatting.
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And uh love to tell you more about it, and uh just ready to kind of hop into it.
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So yeah, thanks again, Billy.
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There is a lot going on in the world.
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You can say that again, but like if we were to take a headline from what Infinity Labs is up to, what would that be today, you think?
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Uh the theme lately has been big wins.
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So I think coming into 26, uh, you know, we've had six years of solid sustainable growth and it hasn't stopped, and it's it's been great.
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Um, I can't say a whole lot about some of the upcoming wins.
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So still being waiting to be announced, but uh we'll probably talk later.
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I've got a we've got a big win on our core modeling and simulation contract.
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Uh great success.
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Um our cyber portfolio is actually growing as well uh with the Department of Air Force.
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And then uh one of our contracts, it's still in the works, but we're gonna have a large ceiling increase to accommodate more funds.
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So uh it feels good that it's not just a bunch of short wins, but it's building the rails for much long-term sustainable growth.
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It it's it's a great place.
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You know, springtime, the flowers are blooming, and it everything feels great right now.
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So, yeah.
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I love it.
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That is nothing but positive.
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And I love the fact that it's going to be the types of projects that last for years and really take you all into the future with these corporate partners.
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Um, as far as the mission that your company is serving, what is kind of the summary of that?
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Yeah, so um we we have a few business areas, few business areas.
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So modeling and simulation, uh, which is a lot about uh taking authoritative data for a lot of different use cases, modeling it, simulating for training, analysis, exercises, AI, uh very exciting topic.
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Um various use cases.
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So if we're key software developers, I would say uniquely capable in that domain.
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We have a separate business area for cybersecurity, kind of focus on planes, trains, automobiles, uh things that should not be hooked up to the internet but are.
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Uh and then uh also research and development.
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We have a pretty uh broad server portfolio if you're familiar with that program.
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Um we we actually have a uh surprisingly a biologically inspired system design portfolio that's taken off quite a bit.
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That that stuff's very exciting.
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Um and uh we'll also training.
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So anything we do, we'll train.
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Uh we do a lot of training of modeling and simulation tools.
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So um the government has a lot of requirements, a lot of programs to say you must use our data, you must use our simulation frameworks to valid, to mature and validate your technology.
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And so they'll frequently government and industry partners will come to us to help train their workforce.
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So sometimes we'll work with them, uh, but sometimes if they have a whole staff of folks, they're great developers, we'll help teach them this domain and teach them this very complicated code base to get them productive.
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So um I see this is kind of a key element in this ecosystem to help get government and industry uh using the same data in the same ways when they go and study things so that way we can mature technology, develop it faster, be much more efficient to the taxpayer.
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I love it.
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When you describe a system that's inspired by biology, is that like a neural network or what are we talking about there?
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True.
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That's that's actually uh part of it.
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That's that's a great example, actually.
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Um and there's a wide corpus of um uh think of uh biological processes that are studied and characterized out there mathematically.
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And what we're doing is leveraging that, like think of like how a bird swarm, bird swarm, uh how fish sweep, you know, schools of fish swarm.
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It's not like there's a swarm, like a collective conscience.
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There's very simple rules and behaviors that exist in a single element, like that bird brain, fish brain, right?
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Uh a crowd of people, very simple rules.
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And by mathematically characterizing them, we can leverage this for large-scale optimization problems.
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Uh, think of like how a swarm flies, of like drones or whatever, you know, it could be uh um you want to simulate the behavior of chemistry, right?
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You can apply this to a lot of use cases.
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Um, but looking at the that well-studied area in biology, applying the to math and applied statistics, then what you see is a lot of emergent behavior, right?
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Um you may want to optimize, uh have a very difficult optimization problem for guiding a drone through a city, right?
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Um, and it turns out Mother Nature has invested a lot in collision avoidance over the last millions of years.
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And so if we just study that and put it in a computer, it works pretty darn well.
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So uh it's been uh very fun and exciting.
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It's it you know, we kind of grew out of modeling and simulation, and this is kind of a logical extension of that.
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Um, and it's been very refreshing to do other good things, right?
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I love it.
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Don't reinvent the wheel when Mother Nature has probably done a good job of doing it, right?
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Yeah, well one of our our chief uh one of our chief scientists, actually, see one of our senior guys, he's got a little tagline.
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We nature always wins.
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So uh great for marketing.
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I love it, but yeah.
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So imagine the phrase government contracting.
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That's uh used a lie, you hear that.
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What do people misunderstand right away about that phrase, you think?
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Oh, yeah.
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Uh you hear this a lot.
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I tell people government contracting, it's like, oh, you must build planes or ships, right?
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And you're you're that's billions of dollars and 10 years over and ever delivering.
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You know, that's you see these things, yeah, the gloom and doom in the news and stuff.
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And and uh you know, really that that's the big misconception, right?
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We're not building aircraft.
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We're very much a software-focused company for now.
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Uh, we're branching into physical test beds, things like that.
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But a lot of our work are very small, very small tasks, like sub one million dollars, one or two years, uh, working closely with researchers, customers, very smart people solving hard technical problems.
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And it's not like, you know, here's here's a billion dollars go off and we'll see you in five years, right?
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Come back with a ship.
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You know, working very intimately with uh technology owners, technology developers to uh really push the cutting edge and find the next revolutionary step and help study this and help enable other companies to bring technology in.
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So uh far more incremental, and then I'll say it's more long-term impact, right?
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We're not putting something together, instant gratification.
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This is study things, mature technology, and get to a much better say national security posture.
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How many years ahead do you have to look to see some of that potential for the technology to really mature you think?
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Oh, that's a great question.
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There it depends on what you're trying to answer.
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Um, are you trying to buy the next aircraft?
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Are you trying to buy the next widget that goes on an aircraft?
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Are you trying to build a satellite?
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Um it depends on uh uh the maturity of the state of the art, right?
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How much you got, right?
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Are we looking for something that is going to help existing systems?
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And that's really more of a one to five year visionary thing.
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And now if you're looking at things like, let's say force design, like how many aircraft do we need, right?
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How or you're or uh more in like civilian context, right?
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You're designing what's the next airport need to be, like what capacity logistics, right?
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Uh, you know, forecasting that, that is that becomes a five to 10 to 20 year problem um if you want to forecast a large system of systems.
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I think I think the aircraft example is very good, right?
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If you want to look at uh you know systems of airports and load balancing and everything that goes into that, you really have to think, you know, I'm gonna look at a calendar here, you know, 20 2040 to 2050 about where we're gonna where where the the need for transportation is gonna be by that time.
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Wild to think about like all that would go into that.
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And and and you're you're helping simulate stuff like that.
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So it's passionate.
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Oh thanks, thanks.
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Yeah.
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Um actually maybe not I've you mentioned that uh that the that um to that point, um the very large things you want to simulate, think you know, large airports, systems of airports, um logistics, if this could be you know n like large uh defense systems.
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And you may not you need to up a the art that goes into the science for this is understanding what data you need and what doesn't, right?
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All that stuff and basic math of significant figures and stuff like that start to really matter because a lot of people spend their time trying to model pristinely, maybe a very small capability.
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When really I only need one or two numbers as a heuristic to allow the computer to simulate the much larger system of systems.
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Because you may care about not necessarily the aerodynamics of an aircraft, but you need to know how many people it can carry, right?
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The fuel capacity, uh, how much runway it needs, and larger numbers that matter, and that a computer can run far more simulations on.
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Nick, um when you look to this episode of what we're gonna talk about today, think of a leader that might be out there listening.
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What do you what do you want them to get out of what you're going to share with us?
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Encouragement.
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So I'm I'm feeling pretty happy today.
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Um there's a lot of very exciting technology on the horizon.
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Um I think there's you mentioned government contracting, I think the field's opening up for non-traditional performers.
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Um there's a lot of good economic opportunity that's out there um that's being unlocked.
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And so I think embracing the technology, you know, don't don't be afraid of AI.
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Use it as a as a force multiplier for your workforce.
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I think there's a lot of good things on the horizon for uh government and dis and industry right now.
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I love the optimism.
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I love the idea that that you know it's not all doom and gloom.
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There is a lot to be excited about and to keep that positivity.
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All right, so your origin story.
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I want to talk about how you came to be where you are today.
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And you started out as a government civilian, didn't you?
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Correct.
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Yeah, I was uh started in civil service right out of college.
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Uh and I worked actually in the Fort Meade complex out in Maryland.
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A lot of stuff going on out there in the East Coast, a lot of cool stuff.
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Um, and definitely learned a lot about how to work, uh, the government sphere, uh, leadership.
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I I have rotated around quite a bit, so uh had a lot of great examples and a lot of great counterexamples too.
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So you learn from both.
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Uh what parts of your your work experience there do you think was sort of the catalyst for realizing you wanted to build something new with uh some of the team you've been working with?
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Yeah, I learned a lot to value talent.
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Um I I love my time in the government.
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Um, but I think if you ask anyone in the government, this is not a controversial opinion, but uh I think you've got some people who are true believers.
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They go in and they're enabled by the power, the fruit, the fee, the uh opportunity they have to actually shape and build things and do things.
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Uh you also have a very large swath of folks who are seat warmers, so to speak, who are not maybe you're not tasked appropriately, right?
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Or have the leadership, the incline, entrepreneur inclination to build, right?
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Um, and I I see I see the true believers, they really kind of stand out and emulating that drive.
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They usually have a vision of something they want to do and they go and do it, and they can bend the bureaucracy to make it happen.
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And I admire that greatly.
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They they don't let they hear no.
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And I think uh the I think the best leaders, and this is something we work into our core values, think about how do we get to yes, right?
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It may be cost prohibitive, may hurt people's feelings, it may be difficult, but what is the path to yes to get something done?
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And that's always what we look that I just look for that a lot in leadership.
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That's something that's really stuck with me over the years.
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Uh how many, how many times did you have to hear no before there was a yes?
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Oh uh a lot.
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And sometimes, you know, you work in government contracting and there's a lot, highly compli high compliance, high regulatory environment.
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And I think there's people that will run in and say no.
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It's easy to say no, right?
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It's easy to say no and flex your power, right?
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It's great because if I sit here and I'm a gate check for some process, saying yes to something usually implies that I have to do more work.
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And but if I say no, I can demonstrate my power and I don't have to do anything else after that, right?
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So uh finding ways to convince the naysayers, right, to get the yes or go around or you know, um knowing the process is good as the person who's gonna say no.
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Uh so you'll hear no from security people, not our security people, I love them, you know, contracting aspects, regulators, other companies.
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There's a lot of people in any process involved in government and contracting who can jump in and say, no, you can't do this.
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But having in a customer buy-in to help push things through, having a clear vision, knowing the process really well, and giving people as few opportunities to say no is really what I feel like a lot of my mental bandwidth goes towards, right?
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What do you think was the biggest like kind of a cliff that you had to step over to really decide that you were going to become a co-founder and an entrepreneur?
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's a great question.
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Um, so the the decision to become an entrepreneur, I didn't I didn't really prepare for it.
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There's something that kind of happened.
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Um had evolved very quickly.
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The the previous company I worked for was a very large entity and they were going after large work.
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And actually that they're very successful at that.
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I've been honest with stock prices up, and everyone's everyone I talked to is happy.
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So I'm great.
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I would have failed over there, to be honest, like trying to make a company doing big things.
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Um, I I think there's a realization that okay, we're structuring to be big, cool.
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Nick would not succeed in that.
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Nick would need to do small RD, small tasks, RD, like customer intimacy, you know, um more say collaborative.
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That's not not to say it's wasn't collaborative before, but like being in a tighter ecosystem with other other companies and performers.
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And we needed to kind of create the culture we would thrive in, or else we would kind of thither at the vine, so to speak.
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Um it's again, I didn't it happen very quickly.
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I didn't prepare for it.
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It was kind of a, hey, we got to do this sort of thing, this and the other founders at the time.
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Um, and I looked, I looked around, like, all right, these are the guys that I know how to work with.
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And if I'm if I don't jump, I'm gonna, you know, be high and dry, right?
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I will fail extra fast.
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And so uh I just thought, all right, I'm in, and uh, you know, I you know I talked to my wife at the time, who was uh eight months pregnant at the time.
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And uh yeah, and uh I said I looked in, I said, uh I'm quitting my job and joining a startup.
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So it was uh that was it.
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I I we didn't have a whole lot saved at the time or saving via baby and stuff like that.
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But I think in terms of because when you're an entrepreneur, you're doing it all alone.
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You you gotta work and then get paid, right?
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You pay yourself last.
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And uh that was a whole humbling dimension.
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I think we thrived because of a little bit of personal sacrifice, but really we had a great support network, the coworkers, we had great customers, right?
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I think we had a lot of encouragement.
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And I think we had a I've never forgotten the positive environment that some of the customers and other prime contractors we worked with enabled us.
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I think that's that really um uh I'll take that with me forever.
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So I it was a big risk, but I was very, I'm very thankful for the support that we got from family, friends, uh customers, and of course, and key industry partners.
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It sounds like you've really built a community around like what what you all are building, right?
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It's not just the the people inside the company, but it's those partners and those customers that have been loyal and help you build it.
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Yeah, that that that's a great way to put it.
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And you know, the scene behind me, this is uh Dayton, Ohio, where I'm from and currently sitting.
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And uh it's a small city, right?
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You there's not many bridges here in the background, or you can't really burn too many without leaving yourself hot and dry.
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So uh it's you you have to maintain friendship.
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Sometimes, you know, things don't work out for business reasons, but you have to separate the emotion from that, right?
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Uh it's you have to respect the human.
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I think we had good network going in, a lot of good capabilities when we started up, but yeah, I think you're right.
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So you had to build the community, right?
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.680
If a business thing doesn't work out, well, you know, we you end up competing with someone.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.839
Well, we'll collaborate on the next one, right?
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:12.319
Uh you can't be emotional about this stuff and just know that there's enough money to go around, there's enough talent, and we're all gonna thrive.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:14.880
Good.
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:23.599
I think thriving is something that the focal point holds up as far as like what we are trying to get our clients to realize and achieve.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.839
It's not just like being successful, it's it's truly thriving, right?
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:35.039
Like that is even our chamber of commerce has that as what what our community wants to do by supporting businesses.
00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:43.200
And I think if more people kind of held that up as what their goal was, we'd be a lot better off.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.279
Yeah, and that's one of our core values is the thrive together.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.720
Uh took a lot to build those, but that's what we're really proud of.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:19:01.039
And that's not just like us internally, like as a company, individu as individuals working together, uh, but with the customers, with other people, like we have to all be successful.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.240
Um, because if you if it if you just focus on your own success, it's sometimes at the detriment of others.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.720
And that you may not know, but that's a bridge of the spurn.
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:17.279
Uh so you have to really consider the success of others and help manage a lot of that, maximize success for the team is where we gotta be.
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:19.920
I think that's probably true.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.319
Like I think thriving alone, thriving by yourself.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.400
I don't even know if that's possible, right?
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:34.079
It's kind of a word that's designed to be plural for a group of people, a community.
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:35.440
Yeah, there's a great book on it.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.440
It's called The Prince, right, by Machiavelli.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.799
And so it's right, that old book.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:48.240
So let's talk about for a minute Infinity Labs and what you all are actually building.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:55.440
Nick, in plain language, what is a government-wide modeling and simulation framework?
00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.720
You know, I like to talk.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.519
So I'm gonna put this is the hardest question for me.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:02.960
Like, what do you do, right?
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.359
Um, and I nerd out really quickly.
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:10.720
So, but really modeling and simulation, think of the model is data, right?
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:18.960
That is uh think of this as the it could be data you make up per conjecture, but the real values and authoritative data, right?
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:20.720
An authoritative source of truth.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:26.160
I need real studied, measured data into a structure of some kind.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:31.039
Uh, there's a lot of what that structure is is open to interpretation, depending who you talk to.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.680
But a model is data captured digitally.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:42.480
Simulation is the management of the management of the data, the evolution of the data, how data interacts with other data.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:49.200
I can have a model of an aircraft and a model of a runway, how they interact is how what the simulation manages.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:57.680
And so think of modeling and simulation as the study of data evolution uh with lots of use cases.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.960
Um and the value again of this these government-owned, um, open as possible.
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.960
And the next step, I guess, above open source, right?
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.039
Um, is the real value is everyone's on the same playing field, right?
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.039
If I want to buy an aircraft, I get their model.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:18.480
It's in the same data format, runs in the same simulation as another vendor, right?
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.480
And we can study this equally.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.680
And it turns out there's a lot when you can do that, you enable a lot of other stuff that's really good.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:37.599
I can take the same software instead of studying and maturing technology, I can plug it into a cockpit or a virtual engine, uh, a fancy video game interface and train people, right?
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:40.160
I can use that for use it for training.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.839
Um, I can hook it up to hardware and stimulate hardware, right?
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:56.319
If I want to build a better radio for an aircraft or an aircraft controller, um, I can now build a virtual test bed and stimulate it to uh to perform like before you would actually plug it into a control tower or an aircraft.
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.680
Um, and then most excitingly, you can take these simulation frames.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.680
Works, run them really, really fast without a human inner human interacting, and plug it into a machine learning engine.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:13.759
There's been a lot of uses what's called a synthetic data generator for AI.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:21.359
And so now we can take authoritative data, run it really fast, and train AI agents to do helpful human tasks.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:26.960
And we're going to see a lot of automation come from this and as enablers for kind of human tasks.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:34.240
That's been an exciting area of growth for us is to understand just the deep area for reinforcement learning, the machine learning.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.039
There's a lot of different approaches under there.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.279
This I'm going to pull myself back a little bit.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:54.319
But when you think AI, ML, modeling and simulation is integral to that because that is the data engine that feeds these core algorithms that develops the useful tools that become relevant to you, me, customers, warfighters, whoever needs them.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.480
We think about the software engineering part of it.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.519
And maybe is it fair to call it a code base?
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.960
Is it absolutely so it's uh it's about two million?
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.160
So the code base we work in, um, and this is common too.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:12.720
There's many code bases like it, but it's a couple million lines of code that are free, so to speak.
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:18.160
If you're a US citizen, you know, you you work with the government, you can get access to this.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:24.400
And uh the yeah, it's like a couple million lines of code, but um yeah, it it's pretty much that.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:28.160
You out of that arise as many uh say binaries, but applications, right?
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:30.559
I can build an application that does this or that.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:36.880
Uh, here's the visual side, but you get the code, some pre-built stuff and training um as part of that.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.200
So yeah, that's a great way to put it.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:40.160
Okay.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:48.880
Is is it is it challenging to work with a uh code-based at large that that's covering that many probably different applications and organizations?
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:51.119
It it is there's a steep learning curve.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:58.319
We're always trying to work to lower the curve because you have this kind of domain knowledge of modeling and simulation, the tribal knowledge, overcoming that's hard enough.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:04.480
You have C, which a lot of our work is in, which is one of the harder, hardest languages out there to learn.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.839
Um, and then yeah, the just the sheer volume of code.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:15.680
Now, assuming you're a C expert and you hop into a very large code base, understanding that is manageable for, I say, a senior person.
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.680
The challenge, I think, is just the number of stakeholders.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.480
Um, so many our we have our key core customers, but they have many stakeholders, right?
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.160
It fans out exponentially.
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.319
A lot of people feeding them requirements.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.160
We also work with other companies, right?
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.319
It's not just us that we have to thrive together.
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:34.960
There's other teams of companies working on this.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:39.759
And so um, you kind of have this very large stakeholder base.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:45.599
I can look inward towards my team, and there's a lot of technical stuff to coordinate of tasking for the requirements.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.240
I look at the other side externally, and I see a lot of people feeding in, feeding in these requirements and having to manage them.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:01.039
So it's the the stakeholder engagement is I think far more challenging than the challenges of the code, to be honest.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:16.400
Yeah, I I think of like when there is technology communicated in like TV shows or movies, and there is always a just the most dynamically creative user interface.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.960
Do you all have user interfaces or is it truly just code lines?
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:22.240
Um, no, that's great.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.640
There are some user interfaces that come with the code.
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.559
Um I'll I'll be honest though, it's in uh Infinity Labs.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:33.119
We collaborate a lot with people who are very good at user interface and user experience.
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:41.359
There are there are companies actually here in Dayton as well that have psychologists on staff understanding how to present information to users.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.920
Uh we're that's one area we're not in.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:50.319
Um what we have done though on the software side is to uh work with gaming engines, actually.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:51.759
Uh and that's been very exciting.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.799
So we can uh I'm a big fan of Unreal here, Unreal, right?
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.319
There's the community Unreal.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.039
Unreal is all my plugs for Unreal, right?
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.960
They uh uh they have a lot less stuff you get for free.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:15.359
And getting these authoritative data generators with all this data and physics in there, working with a gaming engine that provides beautiful graphics and assets to visualize things, you can get a lot up and running very quickly.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.039
So we're learning more about how to work within the gaming engine because they're they're fundamentally architected differently.
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:32.240
This is kind of a computer science thing, but seeing how a constructive SIM that just needs to run really blazing fast versus a gaming engine more focused on running real time with a human in the loop is really cool.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.759
It's like seeing two architectures come together, it's very uh satisfying.
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.160
And it's uh our customers are impressed too.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.359
It's uh but it's a uh that's a potential area of growth for us.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:43.440
Awesome.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:48.480
I'm I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to user interfaces, so that's always interesting to me.
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.559
Uh is there Nick one project?
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:57.519
I know some of it might be confidential or top secret, but is there one project that you could share a little bit about that you're most proud of?
00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:58.559
Yeah, sure.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.559
Uh I can mention my name's called Forge.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:01.599
It's publicly announced.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.680
You go out looking at USA spending and that stuff, it's a that's the name of the contract.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.640
And uh that was kind of the banner wind for us.
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.799
Um the I mentioned this core government simulation framework work.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:21.119
Um, and you know, we we were kind of missed the boat when we founded Infinity Labs on being a member of the core development team, right?
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.640
They kind of rebid these contracts every five-ish years or so.
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.000
Um, and we founded a company, kind of the timing was bad for it.
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:28.960
We couldn't hop on the team.
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.079
We still worked, right?
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:37.839
We still, like anyone else, supported customers, did work in the framework, but we weren't like driving the requirements on it itself.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:43.920
And um earlier this year, we were announcing a more on this forge contract, and now we have a seat at the table.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.519
It's very validating for us, right?
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:51.440
Like we always talk to big game, said we're exceptional developers, but then like we weren't really on the core contract for it.
00:27:51.599 --> 00:28:03.279
And I think when it came for read compete, winning a seat at the table and uh being able to work with some very smart people who are already working on it is very uh rewarding, and I think it's very validating for us as a company.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:11.279
That's a perfect segue because I want to talk about that kind of that idea of being validated as a real company.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.039
Because I want to know what changed.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:19.039
You've gone from uh seven kind of core employees at the beginning to now more than 90.
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:26.319
So I want to know when you crossed from that small startup to mid-sized company, what was that like?
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.200
We had a lot of re-org.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:31.759
Like you had to adapt, right?
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:43.200
And it's that's uh you finding the people and structure to achieve your values and meet the customer needs without blowing the budget on highly paid managers is a really tough balance.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:55.119
And a lot we I've talked, we we were going through this growth, we would talk to other small companies here in our community, and some companies never found that next level of people, and they just sold and went off and did something else.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:58.960
So we kind of knew that, but this was coming.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:07.039
And uh, but I think the the biggest change we noticed was communication and how we communicate amongst leaders.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.119
Uh, because when you're small, everyone's kind of aware of everything all the time.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:17.599
And I think what we builds is what kind of builds is this fear of missing out, right?
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:30.799
If you're not aware of something, you know, oh, I got you know, it's it's not, you know, you're very hands-on and everything, and giving up that responsibility, taking one of the many hats off and trusting someone, giving it to someone else is a big step.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.920
And um, when we started to scale, we brought more leaders up, right?
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:46.960
Add more layers to the org chart, understanding that flow of communication and understanding the roles and responsibilities of every level is extremely difficult at any level.
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:55.440
But I think going from that small to a uh smaller than medium stage, like a 50-ish threshold, is uh very tough.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.160
So communication to answer your question.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:29:59.200
Okay.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:05.839
And so on the flip side of that, that was that was maybe one of the things that um improved the most.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:12.640
But where where was their friction or where was their difficulty uh along the way in growing the company?
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:20.480
The so my the the answer that always tempts me is compliance because there's so much compliance to be had.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:27.359
But I think we had the right people in place um that knew the compliance structures, and so we didn't really run into too many of those.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.319
It was very surmount, significant but surmountable.
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:37.759
I would say though, the biggest friction point though is is uh finding that next level of leader, right?
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:49.920
Um it's you once you get to a certain size and you have to have um you go from being a project manager, manage portfolio in a small team to having more personnel responsibilities, right?
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:55.920
You need to create this next layer between the C-suite and the say working level.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:57.759
There's a lot of blending between.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.160
Uh, but you need to create that managerial level.
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:24.640
And that level's got to have an eye for the technical execution, make sure everything's all right, personnel, managing personnel with all the stuff that comes with that, a little bit of sales acumen, not that's entirely their responsibility, but just knowing their portfolio, helping it grow, trusting someone with a business area and someone with all those skills is very hard to come by and it's tough to develop.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:33.359
Um, and I think finding the right people that you can compliment, maybe if you don't have all those skills, you fit in and we can help complement with other folks or other responsibilities.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:41.680
But just finding that middle layer where you get that manager, the key manager level for personnel management was extremely difficult.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:49.200
And it took a lot of iterations, a lot of restructuring about how we allocate roles and responsibilities to really get something that was sustainable.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:32:07.119
I think as someone who's been in middle management, um, I I can tell you that it is kind of the heartbeat of an organization where you're you're yes, you're communicating with the senior leadership team and you're you're helping them drive the vision and the mission and all that.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:18.559
But you're also very much in the data day, you're in the weeds, you're you're working with the individual contributors and trying to make sure the tasks are getting completed on time and that projects aren't getting delayed.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:20.720
So it's a it's a wonderful balance.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:22.640
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:30.480
Um tell me a little bit about something that I think we talked about in our intro call called a prime contract.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:34.160
That unlocked some things for your business, didn't it?
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:45.759
Yeah, it's uh um when I mentioned prime in this context, just for you and the listener and me, uh to get the lexicon consistent, it means you are directly getting paid by the government.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:50.319
So prime typically means like I'm the key performer.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:55.599
The the exchange of money and services occurs between us and the government directly.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.440
And then you'll have below the prime, or you typically one or more subcontractors, depending on the task.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:08.720
The prime is responsible has the responsibility for everything, and then the subcontractors bring a lot of value and help augment the team.
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.680
Um, and so rarely for a large effort does the company go alone and just say they can do the whole thing.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:18.640
The government typically expects a prime bid with many subcontractors below it.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.880
Um, but the I think the one we we actually talked about a moment ago, Forge, I mentioned, is the key to this.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.440
That's the one I think what we saw on this contract was say a prime seat at the table.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:34.720
We were now in control of a technical, a chunk of technical execution.
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.039
And with that came a spotlight, right?
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:42.160
It's like, all right, Infinity Labs, you talk a big game, you go around training people, you do all this stuff, right?
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:43.200
Here you go.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.559
And uh it's you know the cannot fail sort of mentality.
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:55.920
So I think uh there is pressure to perform uh because we're working with other companies that have been on the same workflows, working with the customer as well.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:02.240
And they're great to work with, they do great work, but we have to be, you know, we have to meet the bar and exceed it.
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:09.599
Um so uh I think that's this my my the thought in my head this is where we had done a lot of great marketing, some great execution.
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:11.760
Now we have to execute in that transition, right?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:13.920
You gotta you gotta cash the checks, you're right.
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.079
And so it's a good kind of pressure.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:17.199
I like it, I enjoy it.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.519
We have the right people on the team for it, but the pressure is definitely on to perform.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.880
And then how it's been how long since that that first contract, and and how is how's the pressure been?
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:29.599
Oh, yeah.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:40.639
So uh we're over to like early January, and it's uh yeah, so that there was the whole, you know, we got past Doge, got past uh government shutdown and budgeting and stuff like that.
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.679
And it was a slow reboot for the government and all the processes to turn back on.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:49.599
So it took a while for contracting some security stuff like the paperwork.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.239
Um, and then also onboarding to all the systems.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:59.519
One thing that I don't know if your listener appreciates is the torment of getting an account on a government IT system and many signatures involved.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:06.239
It took an incredible amount of time to just get to access to all the tools and onboard, and the customers knew this, right?
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:11.119
Uh, we did the best we could, but it was a very slow ramp up just from the logistics standpoint.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.960
And then we're in there, and it it's been um it's been good.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:22.320
That the so we're right now, I think we're performing very well and we're getting a lot of good attention, and it's just the requirements are flooding in.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:28.559
So, you know, as soon as we uh we kind of built the boat, hopped in, and didn't realize, oh, here come the waves.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:36.079
So you're in a seaworthy boat, so I wish you I wish you luck as that project continues.
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:45.840
You go back to to talking about leadership development and bringing up that next generation of leaders is kind of one of the hardest parts of this growth trajectory.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:48.800
What do you think makes that such a hard piece of it?
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:50.639
Trust.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:36:01.199
Trust that uh uh you know, you you're an entrepreneur, you wear all the hats to do all the functions of the business, and it's it's your baby, right?
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:13.119
And it's uh you you've you've done it right, and it's you know, I think being able to trust someone enough to take one hat off and give those responsibilities to them is difficult.
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:22.639
And um I think f finding that person, like I mentioned before, that has the personnel, the project management, the sales acumen is difficult, right?
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:30.239
And um trusting someone with the business unit to go and execute and develop um is difficult.
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.599
It's it's both if it goes both ways, right?
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:35.199
I have to be able to give up the hat.
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:57.199
I have to, as a leader, you have to be willing to give up the responsibilities to hand off to another leader, invest the time, right, to actually bring them up, get them familiar with your company, how you do business, and the um and the expectations, coming up with explicit expectations for performance and how you operate and all of that, it takes a huge mental time commitment to do.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:06.159
And if you do that, you know, you got to build the trust and the trust that they can provide feedback that goes both ways and that they can go and perform.
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:11.280
Uh, if you just say, I'm hiring you, you're taking over this business unit, I walk away and go somewhere else, right?
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:12.480
That's how that's gonna go.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:13.760
That's a huge risk, right?
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.880
That's I don't know, I think a responsible entrepreneur wouldn't do that.
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:28.320
So the you invest time into building like the portfolio of technical execution, getting the money rolling in, and then you got to turn around and invest in more leaders to help help grow, help you grow, help them grow.
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:33.599
And it just kind of comes back to that trust, building the trust that people can perform.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.119
A lot goes into building trust.
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:47.280
So I wonder if there are certain traits that you find, especially in looking at like a really technical contributor that is trying to transition into a leadership role.
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:53.679
Are there certain things that you look for and and what makes that more successful than not?
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.280
Yeah.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:01.679
Um a lot of organizations, I think go back to like government days, stuff like that.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:09.679
Um, you know, the logical progression is you you your technical and individual contributor, and then you just go into management.
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.639
You just take on the responsibility for managing people, right?
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.079
And that doesn't always work out, right?
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.000
Individual contributor, technical person needs to have a growth track.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.400
But I think as in leadership, that's something else.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:28.960
The traits that we typically look for would be you know, someone who has the soft skills, right?
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.519
The soft skills along with the software, right?
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:40.239
When they're developing it's not like lines of code translates into uh meaningful sales, you know, opportunity conversion.
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:44.559
So um, but you look for someone who can lead a team, right?
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:51.119
Look and one thing that um try to look for, I try to help get our team leads thinking about is why we're doing the task.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.519
Like what the big picture of why we're here, right?
00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:59.760
It is one thing of developing great code, delivering great high-quality, efficient code.
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:02.079
Um, but why, right?
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:02.880
Why are we here?
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:03.840
What's the customer?
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:05.440
What gets the customer promoted?
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.480
That's what I tell people.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:13.280
It's like, don't just look at the statement of work, um, you know, or what's in the GitLab and just check boxes all day.
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:19.840
Think about the customer, the person who put it in there and what they're trying to do to get themselves promoted and help them do that, right?
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.320
And you know, why are we here?
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:24.639
And then decomposing these tasks, right?
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.400
How can it's like, well, we got to build this thing.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.480
It's like, well, what are the parts that go into it?
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:29.760
Who's gonna do it?
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.320
Who's who's the best person to do this, right?
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.719
Thinking about that human layer, the soft skills on top of the software, right?
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:49.280
And uh it's the person who thinks at that level more abstractly, may not be the best developer, but if they can be the best technical leader to make the project execute, that's me saying, well, you know, can they take on other responsibilities?
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:50.400
Are they good with the customer?
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:52.000
Are they sociable enough, right?
00:39:52.159 --> 00:40:00.159
You know, they're maybe aware, maybe it's not their responsibility, but they're aware that maybe a project's coming to end and they're asking questions about follow-on funding, right?
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:10.960
Someone who's has that level of just situational awareness and has the social capacity to interact with other companies, other customers to help grow.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:17.199
And that's the person, you know, let the good coder, if they want to develop, let them thrive that way, right?
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:19.280
They will we have people like that who are brilliant.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.760
They say, Don't give me these time card responsibilities.
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.119
I want to push code out.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:24.000
Like perfect.
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:30.880
That's from my experience.
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:32.800
That's the secret recipe.
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:33.360
I like it.
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:39.679
And can you share a story of maybe where you reshuffled some roles and it worked out?
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:44.880
And then what what did that teach you about fit at the organization as a result?
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:48.320
Yes, I got a cough rope on allergies.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.559
So it is allergy season.
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.119
That's all right.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:54.800
Yeah, bearing with me.
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:55.519
All right.
00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:04.800
Um yeah, so um we actually we've I mentioned a moment ago, we've had to re-org a couple times, and you shuffle around, right?
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:11.440
And um there's a time we were trying to find that that next level of manager, right, so to speak.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.639
And we we ended up creating effectively a bottleneck, right?
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:16.880
Uh you know, uh looking back, right?
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:27.519
We had um a layer of uh say junior leaders that were more embedded with it into individual contributors, kind of the C-suite running business sales, like high-level strategic things, but also working with the contributors.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:36.480
And then the first kind of initial um leaders that we brought up to help manage personnel and things like that, um, we gave them a lot of responsibility.
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:37.360
And it's great.
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.840
I thought, you know, people were ready for it, right?
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.039
It was, I think it worked out, but it was too much too soon.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:54.400
And we had created this comms bottleneck where we had a very small number of people that had a lot of people above them from the founder level and a lot of individual individual contributors and other managers below them.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:01.119
Um, and it just kind of created this comms breakdown where they did too much all the time and were kind of losing track of things.
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.039
We had more eyes looking at project management, but less was getting managed.
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:06.639
It was this kind of paradox.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.039
And so we kind of had to bring up more.
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.760
We we it was hard to go from one middle manager or one or two, right?
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:23.519
Uh, we had to almost go to four immediately, uh, because just giving all the responsibilities, handing them off just was too few, kind of overwhelmed the system.
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:28.079
I think the analogy I would get I say say this lovingly and with all people involved, right?
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:30.719
It's it's like the three stew just going through a door, right?
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.760
No one's going through the door, they're all stuck there jammed.
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:38.719
And so uh, you know, we had to widen the door a little, so to speak, and bring up more leaders.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:40.719
And that took a lot of time investment.
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:47.440
It took uh, I think we had the great, I thought one thing I actually like about our people, they're very humble, like my humble, but splitting a portfolio, right?
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.400
Hey, you manage X number of people, you're gonna manage half.
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:52.960
That's that's hard for someone to give up, right?
00:42:53.280 --> 00:43:02.559
And that being able to trust more leaders and re-org and shuffle stuff around a bit and just say, hey, you know, we know you're growing, but we need more people looking at our wide portfolio.
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.880
Because um, it's not like we have, you know, one big project we're sitting on.
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.039
We have uh several dozen, right?
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:11.599
That that are up coming up and down, different contexts.
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.199
It's very hard for one person to have the mental bandwidth to manage all that.
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:18.239
And so that that's a going back to the original question.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:26.400
We only brought up a couple leaders to help fill certain roles, and it just created that bottleneck that just costs a lot of stuff to break down.
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:32.719
It was it was fixable, everyone's happy, but uh it was a very important lesson in organization structure.
00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:34.159
Yeah.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:47.679
I think uh bottlenecks can be such a not just a letdown to the internal team, but then you know, ultimately if you're missing deadlines for the customer, then that impacts the uh the execution and the delivery too.
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.840
So and you miss sales opportunities, right?
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:54.639
You have you're focusing too much on managing things, you're not looking outside, and stuff falls to the lap.
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:56.320
That's as an entrepreneur, it's frustrating.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:57.440
Like I can help with this.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.760
So yeah, I I just a hundred percent agree.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.960
We talked a little bit about one of your core values earlier.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:12.880
So I want to take this opportunity to give a shout out to one of those organizations in that Dayton community that's helping you guys thrive together, Aileron.
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.719
Um helped you guys shape core values and vision both.
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.800
So why did you decide that it was time to really formalize all that at this stage of the uh the company's growth?
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.480
Yeah, uh thanks.
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:31.360
Uh uh, we were fortunate enough to participate in an Aileron series of classes and a cohort uh for leadership development.
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:38.480
And I I anyone listening, if you're if you can drive or fly to Dayton, you got to come to this place and see it.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:39.440
It was phenomenal.
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:49.360
I learned a lot about not just leadership, like life, like the stuff that you learned for some leadership training is applicable to many aspects of your life and any interpersonal relationship.
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:54.320
And one thing we've really valued is like there's some stuff we kind of know in our heads as leaders, right?
00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:01.760
But they put a they quantify it very well to have an explicit framework uh to and a common lexicon to work from.
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:08.719
And we use a lot of the terminology uh learned at aileron, it's it's really helped leadership at all across all levels.
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:14.320
Um and one thing is the aileron uh courses and the facility are wonderful.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.760
Uh part of that, we also worked with a business advisor very closely.
00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:18.880
She was fantastic.
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.840
She put up with us wonderfully and uh really helped form our core values, right?
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:30.559
We kind of knew what it was in our head, how we want to operate, but actually spending a lot of time many days, right?
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:44.159
Uh at the whiteboard talking about what we do and like what we don't do, how we want to manage things to get these very distilled, digestible uh bullets that were that are our values uh was tremendously helpful.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:47.519
It really set the rudder for what we do and don't do.
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:50.000
And it helps helps the culture.
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:56.320
Like you can't explicitly state your culture, but by having these values, these are the things we hire and fire by, right?
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.360
Here's what we want from an employee and how you want to operate.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:03.679
And it's uh it really set the mood and it helps in so many ways.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:14.800
I I'm gonna I I never thought as an upjumped engineer during CTO that I would ever like think about values and mission and vision and that stuff, but ended up being extremely useful.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:20.239
Um and like uh it makes um um a lot of personnel management easier, right?
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:21.679
We can give kudos to people.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:22.639
We actually do this.
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:27.280
We have uh our HR system tied to the TVs and our different offices and the entry.
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:33.599
And we'll when someone does something wrong, go in and give kudos to someone, it'll pop up on the TV in the slideshow, right?
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:37.840
This person represented this value by doing this action.
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:39.039
Thank you, right?
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:42.960
And it's uh it it it helps everyone at all levels.
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:44.719
I just can't think it enough.
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:54.079
So it's it's I think if a your company or leader out there, really think about the values, about what you value as a company, what you want to hire and fire by, and how you want to operate.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:01.679
Um, because that that makes decisions about personnel, business, business development, structure a lot easier.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.320
I love the fact that you are applying the core values.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.199
You're not just putting them on the wall and looking at them.
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:15.280
You're actually letting them influence decisions that you make as an organization.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.039
And uh I think that's such a such a vital part of it.
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:20.239
Thanks.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.079
Yeah, and it reflects on a lot of areas, I think, beyond personnel management.
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:34.639
So um there's a lot of not to get to the nuances of like defense contracting and all this stuff, but um typically, you know, you think about how much you want to charge, right?
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.360
Sales and structure and uh margins, right?
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:42.480
Um larger companies can typically staff many people at a much lower rate.
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.800
Maybe it takes one manager to manage 50 people to staff a lab, right?
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:49.119
And that that can be much more affordable, right?
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.000
I mean, it makes sense in certain contexts to do that, right?
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:54.719
Um you know, we're not that kind of company.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.239
Over other farm out, a couple Sneeze, subject matter experts to help a larger team.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.519
Now, with that, I'll say, you know, we're not the cheapest company in town, but we have tremendous value, right?
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:12.159
Um, and so that's one of the things we look at, our values is that we want to work together with other companies of the government to do better.
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.760
And we want to have a premium brand and premium talent.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.199
And that that's our values really help that.
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:25.280
And so when we work with a company and they hand us like a pricing sheet to fit in, sometimes it's like, hey, this isn't gonna be a fit, right?
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:29.760
We're not gonna um we're not gonna be able to bring value if the rates are too low.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.719
We want to hire really smart people who are sometimes very expensive.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:35.840
I love them, but smart people know what they're they're worth.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.239
So uh we want to have those people and have them thrive and enable them.
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.039
And uh that helps us fit, right?
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:52.960
When we're looking at projects with teams, with partners, the values help shape the shape of our puzzle piece when we're building larger teams and solutions for our customers.
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:54.960
Love that.
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:03.840
Nick, what's one decision or habit that you would credit for keeping trust in fact while growing so quickly?
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:06.800
That's a great question.
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:11.840
Um something I'm gonna struggle with the words the first time around.
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:17.360
Bear with me, Billy, but I think I would have to summarize it as meaningful interactions.
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:18.079
Okay.
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:22.800
Um so you know, you walk around the office and chat with people.
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:25.519
And this is one thing I really liked when we kind of went away from virtual.
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:27.119
We still have virtual components, right?
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.679
But once we got an office, it could interact in 3D as humans.
00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:39.199
Um, I found a lot of value in not just walking by and saying, Hey, how was that fishing trip last weekend or whatever, right?
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:52.320
Parlaying that into something more meaningful um that's work-relevant, but connecting with someone at the human level to build that rapport so you can they're more forthright in how you communicate on the business level.
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:59.119
And um, it can it can be very difficult, I think, to communicate that's a failure, but things that need to be improved.
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:04.719
Because if I'm a leader and I'm responsible for a business unit and a team, if something's not working out, I'm gonna try to fix it first.
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.199
I don't want to go tell my boss, I'm telling myself, right?
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.599
But that does need to be communicated, right?
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.559
And I think the good and the bad and the greater context.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:25.280
And I think if you connect with someone and they trust you, uh that they're gonna, if they have that trust in the relation, the relationship and the organization structure, they'll tell you the good, the bad, the context, and then we can all fix things together.
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:27.760
And I think that makes everyone more effective leaders.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:37.360
Um I think a perfect counterexample I think about is uh one of the greatest pieces of media in human history off space.
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:41.360
So uh you think of Bill Lumberg, right?
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:44.559
Every time Bill Lumberg walks by, you know what's gonna happen, right?
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:49.599
He's gonna he's he's there to give, you know, uh give you tasking, very passive aggressive.
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:55.119
Like as soon as Bill Lumberg walks around the cubicle corner, you know what's gonna happen and that dread kicks in, right?
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:56.960
You don't want to be Bill Lumberg, right?
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.320
I'm gonna walk around, genuinely care about the people because I do, right?
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:04.719
And then get them comfortable so that way, you know, it can help provide better feedback.
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:10.400
And that would, you know, you gotta have the good, do the good with the critical feedback because critical feedback helps you grow.
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:12.079
It can't be something personal, right?
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:13.920
I I need critical feedback.
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:24.480
And if you have a good professional, friendly rapport with your other leaders, you work well together, then that helps everything, helps everyone be better, helps everyone improve.
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.719
I love the fact that you just gave a counterexample.
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:36.079
I think counterexamples are one of the strongest uh lessons and tools we can we can have for learning things.
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:39.039
And I'll give Toyota a quick shout-out for my time there.
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:41.760
We have the Toyota precepts, right?
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:46.639
So these these five kind of kind of like core values, but a little more prescriptive.
00:51:47.039 --> 00:52:02.480
Um and and and to help train all of the Toyota associates on those precepts, they gave out counter examples of what to look for in day-to-day behavior that would be exactly the opposite of what that precept is teaching.
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:10.400
And I just thought that was such a fascinating thing, and I I wouldn't have thought to have done that until I saw it on their training module.
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:20.400
All right, Nick, we've reached the point in time, the title question of the podcast.
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:33.199
Congratulations, you made it we are here it is making more fill in the blank, making more blank is most important to you at this point in your life and career.
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:35.840
Easy answer.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:38.159
Making more time with the kids.
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:43.599
All right, you've that's you gotta remember why we're here and what we're doing this for.
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:49.840
So that's uh you put your time in as an entrepreneur, you feel this you invest and bring up more leaders, and they gotta step back.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.239
I'm like, all right, why am I here?
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:53.280
What is what's going on?
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:54.400
Head up looking around.
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:55.440
They they grew up.
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.559
My my son's gonna start kindergarten here in a few months.
00:52:58.960 --> 00:52:59.199
Oh yeah.
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:00.480
Cannot believe it, right?
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:05.840
He was he was born a month after we started the company, and now he's a kindergartner, right?
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.760
And it's uh how it flies, and I gotta step back.
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.039
So I'm making more time with the kids.
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:14.000
I love it.
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:17.599
I've got a uh one that's graduating from kindergarten uh this year.
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.880
We're getting ready to do some of those end-of-school year things.
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:25.840
So I wish you the best of luck as you begin that academic career just next year.
00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:28.400
And uh it's such a such a good lesson.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:40.639
That's one thing that as a as a coach, you know, making sure that my clients understand that getting into sports practices and getting to watch the recital uh of their their children, that that's what it's about, right?
00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:45.599
It's about getting there to support the ones you love, the ones you're helping to raise.
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:53.840
And making sure that you know they have a chance in this world to know um the love and support of a parent that's that's right by their side.
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:57.199
That's perfectly put.
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.320
And I yeah, thank you, Billy, for having me on any anytime.
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.920
This has been great, great to chat.
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.199
I really appreciate the time.
00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:07.599
Nick, where can people find out more about you and about Infinity Labs?
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:08.239
Sure.
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:15.119
Um, so um you can search Nick Marcourt on LinkedIn, uh, and I'll pop probably right near the top.
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:21.360
Uh, we also have a website of ilabs.tech T E C H.
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:27.840
Um, we show a lot about our current offerings, our capabilities, and our core values, which I'm very proud of.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.239
Um and yes, I feel free to reach out.
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:32.559
I'm trying to be an open guy and chat with whoever.
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:35.119
So um just try to be as friendly as possible.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:40.400
But that's the our website, and probably LinkedIn are the best ways to reach out, but appreciate that.
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:42.880
Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Marport.
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:44.400
Thank you so much for being here, Nick.
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:45.039
Appreciate it.
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:45.920
Thanks, Billy.
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:48.239
Have a great day, and I'll talk to you later.
00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:50.960
Thanks for listening to Making More.
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.639
If today's conversation sparks something in you, let's connect.
00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:08.559
You can find me on LinkedIn and threads at coachfisherfpt or by visiting Billyfisher.focalpointcoaching.com to learn more about how I help leaders create clarity, build momentum, and make more of what matters.
00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:12.000
This recording is copyrighted by Engineer Consulting Incorporated.
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:13.760
Until next time, take care.