WEBVTT
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:11.919
And so I made a real effort to stay in touch because I knew that they were people who would help me keep walking with Jesus.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:20.399
And so the purpose of the navigators is to enable people to walk with Jesus.
00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:24.879
But and to disciple someone else is more than evangelism.
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:27.120
And that's what's hard for people to grasp.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:33.119
It's not just sharing the gospel, but it's helping people grow deep in their lives.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:37.280
And I found people don't do that well on their own.
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:44.000
They go and listen to a sermon, a wonderful sermon, uh at the churches that we're we're in.
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.240
But you hear the sermon, you take a note or two, and then you leave.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:59.840
But what I've found we need is the connectivity with people who will actually help us grow and point us to resources that help us grow.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:04.560
How can we, as navigators, serve the local church?
00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:16.719
You know, God has given us opportunities to grow, and one of those ways is by staying connected to people and groups that will point us to him and to resources and encouragement to continue the walk he has for us.
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Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators.
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Thank you so much for listening to Making Disciples Naturally, for we believe that making disciples should be a natural part of every believer's walk.
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:30.159
Dr.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:39.359
Jerry White, International President of the Navigators America, will be our special guest speaker this September 26, 2026, and Wikipedia.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:50.959
Jerry has great insight and wisdom from the perspective not only of navigator leadership, but also as an ordinary person whom God has used as invested in many over the years.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.599
On this Second of Three podcast, Dr.
00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:04.640
White shares his insight into the navigator organization, its relationship to the local church, and how we as navigators can serve the body of Christ within the local church.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.159
Let's talk about the navigators a little bit.
00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.240
You have a lot of experience with them.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:16.719
Even though the you know the essential mission of knowing Christ and making him known hasn't changed over the years.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:22.560
How would you say the approach or the um the method may have evolved?
00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:24.719
Well, there are two things.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:30.479
We've we've certainly involved where we minister and who we minister to.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.800
For instance, it started in the military.
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:35.840
Then it spread to college campuses.
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:42.319
Then we started sending people overseas, sometimes on campuses, sometimes in other contexts.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:52.800
And so now with 6,000 staff in uh almost 120 countries, we're engaged at all kinds of levels.
00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:01.039
But the the context of where we are changes, but the content doesn't change much.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:11.840
It still is living the gospel, having a witness, helping people discover Jesus from the scriptures on their own.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:16.400
In fact, I've been asked in the last couple, three days, you know, what do the navigators do?
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:22.479
And I said, Well, we just help people get into the Bible and discover Jesus for themselves.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:29.199
And uh, but the methodology of doing it changes depending on your context and your culture.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:41.199
Um in the student world, you can go door to door in the dorms, but at McDonnell Douglas, you don't go to door to door in the office.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:47.039
You have to live your life and open up a door for the gospel.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:04:04.400
Uh so methodology we've had to adjust tremendously depending on the Muslim culture or whichever culture we're reaching out in around the world and in the business culture in any particular country, including the United States.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:11.840
So the message is the same, but the methodology has changed considerably.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:34.959
Uh, still the fundamental idea of small group Bible studies, one-on-one discipling, and we use large groups just simply to encourage people, conferences like we'll have in in Kansas, and and so um those are what I would call fishing pools.
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:40.800
That is, it throws out the ideas, and then people say, Well, that intrigues me.
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How do I get involved?
00:04:42.959 --> 00:05:01.360
In fact, I was at a with some secular folks at a country club in Denver, some meeting I was uh a year or so ago, and there's one woman who is a pretty prominent businesswoman here in Colorado Springs, she says, stop me and said, Jerry, how do I join the navigators?
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I thought that's an interesting question because we don't have any membership.
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:16.079
And um, and so we just do it, we don't talk about it so much or do the organizational thing.
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Yeah, yeah.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:29.199
The organization is very important because the organization gives you railroad tracks to run on, so to speak, and a context that people might understand.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:39.439
Now you've you've spoken of this to some degree, but I want to just explore this a little bit more with you in terms of the value of staying connected with the navigators.
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:56.319
That is, we have a lot of uh people in our community ministry who have been involved with navigators and who who still have some contact with them, but uh don't necessarily consider themselves to be navigators, which I realize is not the end result.
00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.079
That's not necessarily what we're about.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:07.759
But yet we have to maintain some, I would say, value of the organization to keep the discipleship idea going.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:18.319
So I don't know if that makes sense or not, but uh what words of encouragement would you have regarding the importance of staying connected to others with a similar ministry calling?
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:24.319
That is, is it important to stay connected to the navigators for those of us who have been involved in navigators?
00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.800
Well, there's always the concept of apprenticeship in your association in any profession we're in.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.319
You go in and you relate to people who do what you do.
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:42.079
And what for me, I had to work very hard and staying in touch with the navigators in my military life.
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:49.199
When I was in Florida at Cape Canaveral, I had no one nearby, and I had to drive to South Carolina to go to a conference.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:59.199
And so I made a real effort to stay in touch because I knew that they were people who would help me keep walking with Jesus.
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:11.680
Yes, and and so the purpose of the navigators is to enable people to walk with Jesus, but and to disciple someone else.
00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.800
It's more than evangelism, and that's what's hard for people to grasp.
00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:22.800
It's not just sharing the gospel, but it's helping people grow deep in their lives.
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:27.439
And I found people don't do that well on their own.
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:34.639
They go and listen to a sermon, a wonderful sermon, uh at the churches that we're we're in.
00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:42.079
And and so, but you hear the sermon, you take a note or two, and then you leave.
00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:54.480
But what I've found we need is the connectivity with people who will actually help us grow and point us to resources that help us grow.
00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.800
Sometimes that's a Bible study, sometimes it's one of our Nav Press books.
00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:05.439
It's using the 2-7 series to learn how to have a quiet time consistently.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:22.879
And so I found that I it was really important for me to stay connected with the navigators in my career, but and now uh with just the people we have related to through the years to encourage them.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:32.480
So I'm inviting people, for instance, to a navigator conference in October uh at the Glen, a thing we're calling nav world.
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:39.279
And because even though they know the navs, they don't get exposed to it very much.
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And so we want to I want to get them exposed to what we're doing on a broader scale, both for their own benefit, but also to be able to pray for us.
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And so uh it's important.
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I found I had to work at keeping connected.
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Right.
00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:09.759
I know you've written on the concept of the or the idea of the parachurch versus the church ministry, and I want to approach this topic from a couple of different angles.
00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:18.080
Number one, what is the value of the parachurch, which we would put navigators in primarily, versus the church?
00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:19.679
What's the value of both of those?
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And secondly, how can the navigators be of service to the church?
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Can you speak to that a little bit?
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:27.679
Yeah, that's a key thing.
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:37.679
Joe Aldrich uh asked me to write a book on the church and the parachurch because there was conflict, and so I did a number of years ago.
00:09:38.399 --> 00:10:26.720
But the first fundamental issue is that we're all church, the whole body of Christ, but we have different venues in which we meet, and the the local church is a wonderful place because it has a building and a place and or a group of people, and it really it really is a good gathering point, but the local church uh is not a specialized agency, that is, they have to help people going to divorce, kids going through drugs, uh, new people coming in, visiting the hospital, dealing with the it's a broad, broad scope of ministry.
00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:37.519
And whereas groups like the Navigators and Young Life and Inner Varsity and Campus Crusade, we provide specialized things.
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.720
And sometimes instead of calling it para-church, we call it para-local church.
00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:53.759
That is, it's alongside the church, part of the church, both local and universal, but providing a specialized input.
00:10:53.919 --> 00:11:00.000
Uh, like Young Life works with high school students and um and navigators and crew.
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.720
We do a lot of work with uh military and with campus and so forth.
00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:16.240
The the paraturch can reach into areas that the church finds it difficult to do, and so they're not in opposition to one another.
00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:23.759
There are some theological issues that you do have to wrestle with, and that is, is it uh legitimate?
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:47.519
But really, you think of Paul and his wandering band of people, they were not part of a church, but they established churches, and some places the churches prospered, sometimes they didn't, and so I think the idea of mission agencies is a key issue.
00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:54.799
Even a mission agency coming out of a denomination is parachurch, that's good point, yeah.
00:11:55.120 --> 00:12:16.799
That they that is there's a structure that's beyond the local church, even a denomination is a parachurch, that is the denomination is not a church, but it has a structure, and so I find there's no conflict, but the conflict comes when people think there's a conflict.
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:28.559
It's kind of like you have a competitor of someone who builds homes in a community, and there's 30 other contractors who build homes, yeah.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:39.919
Okay, and they all build different kinds of homes, and and they get to know one another and they support one another, but yet they have to build their own home, right?
00:12:40.480 --> 00:13:00.879
And so there's a sense of connectivity and a servicing of the people, and as long as we realize that it doesn't replace the local church, and it may even for some many mission agencies, they're what they call church planters.
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:02.559
Well, what does that mean?
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:07.759
What does the church look like in a foreign country that is Muslim controlled?
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They don't build any buildings because they can't, and so the navigators are good because the word navigator doesn't mean anything.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:26.159
It's uh we we put a little meaning to it, but nobody is hearing the word navigators has any idea what they do.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:27.600
Yeah, good point.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:42.480
And um, and so I've found that yes, there can be a perceived conflict for money and people, but if you have this broader view of the kingdom of God, there's no conflict whatsoever.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.720
It's a division of labor.
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.720
Let's let's get real practical.
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Let's say I'm an individual navigator, I'm involved in the local ministry, I may be the only one going to my church who's involved with navigators or one of very few.
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:02.559
How can I walk into the church office, talk with a pastor?
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:08.879
What would what should my approach be in terms of trying to contribute to the success of that local ministry?
00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:23.360
Well, I've had a good relationship with every pastor I've had, and he knows I'm either early on as a layman with the navigators, and um and I said, you know, I want to bring people that I reach here.
00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:40.559
And so, like at Purdue, we had a little church, and I filled a quarter of the church with students, so he saw no conflict because we were there and I taught a Sunday school, and so when I go to a church, I said, What can I do to serve?
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Um, and I said, What I do pretty well is I teach and I help disciple people.
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:55.360
So is there something we can do inside the church along those lines?
00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:03.679
And uh and for instance, I have a Bible study we met the night before last, and just about all of them used to go to my church.
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.960
Now they scatter and doing other things, right?
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:15.519
But it would still be kind of considered as a if anybody knows about it, and say, well, that's just a part of pulpit rock church.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:33.919
No, it's not, yeah, but everybody knows that as we come out of the church, we might have a different um set of contexts, and I don't ask anybody necessarily to come to my church, but some do.
00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:40.639
But and then the pastor needs to know I'm not a recruiter for the church, I'm not a recruiter for the navigators either.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:46.320
I'm a recruiter for the kingdom of God and Jesus, and then guide people.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.759
Uh, like I I work with one four-star general who's a Catholic.
00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:54.399
I never invite him to my church.
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He'd love me to become a Catholic.
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But I want him to function where he is.
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.039
Now that's controversial in itself.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:03.679
Yeah.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:15.759
Um, but I think that um in terms of interaction with the local church, what I hear you're saying, and part of it is really attitude on on our part, do we approach it with an attitude of humility?
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.440
How can I serve you?
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:24.879
Versus do we approach it with, I have all the answers for discipleship, you know, let's let's make me the center of things.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:31.519
So I think approaching a local church with an attitude of humility and service, that mindset, I think that's that's what you're saying.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.240
That's good.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.799
And and and I want to be friends with the pastor and the staff.
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:37.600
Right.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:43.440
And um, like we had a speaker at church the other day.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.159
Actually, he wasn't speaker, he was just visiting.
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:55.279
And he used to be on staff, and then he became a pastor in another place, and now he's going to be a pastor in a in an international church in Germany.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.840
And he said, Oh, yeah, I remember you.
00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:04.319
And you know, we knew each other back when he was on the staff of our of our church.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.000
And what I say is people have to show up.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:25.839
In other words, I go there and sit, and people know whether I'm there or whether I'm not because they're my friends, but the staff really appreciate that I come and are and are openly supported.
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:32.319
It is critical for us to be involved in the local body of Christ in the church.
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:41.599
Let's come to our pastors and elders and others in the local church with an attitude of humility and a desire to serve and build up the church as Jerry has described.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:48.160
Next time we hear how a great tragedy of Jerry's and his wife Mary's life was able to be redeemed.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.920
Join us right here on Making Disciples Naturally.
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:11.919
And so I made a real effort to stay in touch because I knew that they were people who would help me keep walking with Jesus.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:20.399
And so the purpose of the navigators is to enable people to walk with Jesus.
00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:24.879
But and to disciple someone else is more than evangelism.
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:27.120
And that's what's hard for people to grasp.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:33.119
It's not just sharing the gospel, but it's helping people grow deep in their lives.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:37.280
And I found people don't do that well on their own.
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:44.000
They go and listen to a sermon, a wonderful sermon, uh at the churches that we're we're in.
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.240
But you hear the sermon, you take a note or two, and then you leave.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:59.840
But what I've found we need is the connectivity with people who will actually help us grow and point us to resources that help us grow.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:04.560
How can we, as navigators, serve the local church?
00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:16.719
You know, God has given us opportunities to grow, and one of those ways is by staying connected to people and groups that will point us to him and to resources and encouragement to continue the walk he has for us.
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:20.879
Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators.
00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:29.280
Thank you so much for listening to Making Disciples Naturally, for we believe that making disciples should be a natural part of every believer's walk.
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:30.159
Dr.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:39.359
Jerry White, International President of the Navigators America, will be our special guest speaker this September 26, 2026, and Wikipedia.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:50.959
Jerry has great insight and wisdom from the perspective not only of navigator leadership, but also as an ordinary person whom God has used as invested in many over the years.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.599
On this Second of Three podcast, Dr.
00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:04.640
White shares his insight into the navigator organization, its relationship to the local church, and how we as navigators can serve the body of Christ within the local church.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.159
Let's talk about the navigators a little bit.
00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.240
You have a lot of experience with them.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:16.719
Even though the you know the essential mission of knowing Christ and making him known hasn't changed over the years.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:22.560
How would you say the approach or the um the method may have evolved?
00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:24.719
Well, there are two things.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:30.479
We've we've certainly involved where we minister and who we minister to.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.800
For instance, it started in the military.
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:35.840
Then it spread to college campuses.
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:42.319
Then we started sending people overseas, sometimes on campuses, sometimes in other contexts.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:52.800
And so now with 6,000 staff in uh almost 120 countries, we're engaged at all kinds of levels.
00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:01.039
But the the context of where we are changes, but the content doesn't change much.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:11.840
It still is living the gospel, having a witness, helping people discover Jesus from the scriptures on their own.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:16.400
In fact, I've been asked in the last couple, three days, you know, what do the navigators do?
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:22.479
And I said, Well, we just help people get into the Bible and discover Jesus for themselves.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:29.199
And uh, but the methodology of doing it changes depending on your context and your culture.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:41.199
Um in the student world, you can go door to door in the dorms, but at McDonnell Douglas, you don't go to door to door in the office.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:47.039
You have to live your life and open up a door for the gospel.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:04:04.400
Uh so methodology we've had to adjust tremendously depending on the Muslim culture or whichever culture we're reaching out in around the world and in the business culture in any particular country, including the United States.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:11.840
So the message is the same, but the methodology has changed considerably.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:34.959
Uh, still the fundamental idea of small group Bible studies, one-on-one discipling, and we use large groups just simply to encourage people, conferences like we'll have in in Kansas, and and so um those are what I would call fishing pools.
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:40.800
That is, it throws out the ideas, and then people say, Well, that intrigues me.
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:42.720
How do I get involved?
00:04:42.959 --> 00:05:01.360
In fact, I was at a with some secular folks at a country club in Denver, some meeting I was uh a year or so ago, and there's one woman who is a pretty prominent businesswoman here in Colorado Springs, she says, stop me and said, Jerry, how do I join the navigators?
00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.680
I thought that's an interesting question because we don't have any membership.
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:16.079
And um, and so we just do it, we don't talk about it so much or do the organizational thing.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:16.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:29.199
The organization is very important because the organization gives you railroad tracks to run on, so to speak, and a context that people might understand.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:39.439
Now you've you've spoken of this to some degree, but I want to just explore this a little bit more with you in terms of the value of staying connected with the navigators.
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:56.319
That is, we have a lot of uh people in our community ministry who have been involved with navigators and who who still have some contact with them, but uh don't necessarily consider themselves to be navigators, which I realize is not the end result.
00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.079
That's not necessarily what we're about.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:07.759
But yet we have to maintain some, I would say, value of the organization to keep the discipleship idea going.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:18.319
So I don't know if that makes sense or not, but uh what words of encouragement would you have regarding the importance of staying connected to others with a similar ministry calling?
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:24.319
That is, is it important to stay connected to the navigators for those of us who have been involved in navigators?
00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.800
Well, there's always the concept of apprenticeship in your association in any profession we're in.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.319
You go in and you relate to people who do what you do.
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:42.079
And what for me, I had to work very hard and staying in touch with the navigators in my military life.
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:49.199
When I was in Florida at Cape Canaveral, I had no one nearby, and I had to drive to South Carolina to go to a conference.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:59.199
And so I made a real effort to stay in touch because I knew that they were people who would help me keep walking with Jesus.
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:11.680
Yes, and and so the purpose of the navigators is to enable people to walk with Jesus, but and to disciple someone else.
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It's more than evangelism, and that's what's hard for people to grasp.
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It's not just sharing the gospel, but it's helping people grow deep in their lives.
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And I found people don't do that well on their own.
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They go and listen to a sermon, a wonderful sermon, uh at the churches that we're we're in.
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And and so, but you hear the sermon, you take a note or two, and then you leave.
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But what I've found we need is the connectivity with people who will actually help us grow and point us to resources that help us grow.
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Sometimes that's a Bible study, sometimes it's one of our Nav Press books.
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It's using the 2-7 series to learn how to have a quiet time consistently.
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And so I found that I it was really important for me to stay connected with the navigators in my career, but and now uh with just the people we have related to through the years to encourage them.
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So I'm inviting people, for instance, to a navigator conference in October uh at the Glen, a thing we're calling nav world.
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And because even though they know the navs, they don't get exposed to it very much.
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And so we want to I want to get them exposed to what we're doing on a broader scale, both for their own benefit, but also to be able to pray for us.
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And so uh it's important.
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I found I had to work at keeping connected.
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Right.
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I know you've written on the concept of the or the idea of the parachurch versus the church ministry, and I want to approach this topic from a couple of different angles.
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Number one, what is the value of the parachurch, which we would put navigators in primarily, versus the church?
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What's the value of both of those?
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And secondly, how can the navigators be of service to the church?
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Can you speak to that a little bit?
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Yeah, that's a key thing.
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Joe Aldrich uh asked me to write a book on the church and the parachurch because there was conflict, and so I did a number of years ago.
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But the first fundamental issue is that we're all church, the whole body of Christ, but we have different venues in which we meet, and the the local church is a wonderful place because it has a building and a place and or a group of people, and it really it really is a good gathering point, but the local church uh is not a specialized agency, that is, they have to help people going to divorce, kids going through drugs, uh, new people coming in, visiting the hospital, dealing with the it's a broad, broad scope of ministry.
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And whereas groups like the Navigators and Young Life and Inner Varsity and Campus Crusade, we provide specialized things.
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And sometimes instead of calling it para-church, we call it para-local church.
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That is, it's alongside the church, part of the church, both local and universal, but providing a specialized input.
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Uh, like Young Life works with high school students and um and navigators and crew.
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We do a lot of work with uh military and with campus and so forth.
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The the paraturch can reach into areas that the church finds it difficult to do, and so they're not in opposition to one another.
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There are some theological issues that you do have to wrestle with, and that is, is it uh legitimate?
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But really, you think of Paul and his wandering band of people, they were not part of a church, but they established churches, and some places the churches prospered, sometimes they didn't, and so I think the idea of mission agencies is a key issue.
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Even a mission agency coming out of a denomination is parachurch, that's good point, yeah.
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That they that is there's a structure that's beyond the local church, even a denomination is a parachurch, that is the denomination is not a church, but it has a structure, and so I find there's no conflict, but the conflict comes when people think there's a conflict.
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:28.559
It's kind of like you have a competitor of someone who builds homes in a community, and there's 30 other contractors who build homes, yeah.
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Okay, and they all build different kinds of homes, and and they get to know one another and they support one another, but yet they have to build their own home, right?
00:12:40.480 --> 00:13:00.879
And so there's a sense of connectivity and a servicing of the people, and as long as we realize that it doesn't replace the local church, and it may even for some many mission agencies, they're what they call church planters.
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:02.559
Well, what does that mean?
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What does the church look like in a foreign country that is Muslim controlled?
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They don't build any buildings because they can't, and so the navigators are good because the word navigator doesn't mean anything.
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It's uh we we put a little meaning to it, but nobody is hearing the word navigators has any idea what they do.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:27.600
Yeah, good point.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:42.480
And um, and so I've found that yes, there can be a perceived conflict for money and people, but if you have this broader view of the kingdom of God, there's no conflict whatsoever.
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It's a division of labor.
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Let's let's get real practical.
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Let's say I'm an individual navigator, I'm involved in the local ministry, I may be the only one going to my church who's involved with navigators or one of very few.
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How can I walk into the church office, talk with a pastor?
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What would what should my approach be in terms of trying to contribute to the success of that local ministry?
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Well, I've had a good relationship with every pastor I've had, and he knows I'm either early on as a layman with the navigators, and um and I said, you know, I want to bring people that I reach here.
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And so, like at Purdue, we had a little church, and I filled a quarter of the church with students, so he saw no conflict because we were there and I taught a Sunday school, and so when I go to a church, I said, What can I do to serve?
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Um, and I said, What I do pretty well is I teach and I help disciple people.
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So is there something we can do inside the church along those lines?
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And uh and for instance, I have a Bible study we met the night before last, and just about all of them used to go to my church.
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.960
Now they scatter and doing other things, right?
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:15.519
But it would still be kind of considered as a if anybody knows about it, and say, well, that's just a part of pulpit rock church.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:33.919
No, it's not, yeah, but everybody knows that as we come out of the church, we might have a different um set of contexts, and I don't ask anybody necessarily to come to my church, but some do.
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But and then the pastor needs to know I'm not a recruiter for the church, I'm not a recruiter for the navigators either.
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I'm a recruiter for the kingdom of God and Jesus, and then guide people.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.759
Uh, like I I work with one four-star general who's a Catholic.
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I never invite him to my church.
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He'd love me to become a Catholic.
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But I want him to function where he is.
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.039
Now that's controversial in itself.
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Yeah.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:15.759
Um, but I think that um in terms of interaction with the local church, what I hear you're saying, and part of it is really attitude on on our part, do we approach it with an attitude of humility?
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How can I serve you?
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Versus do we approach it with, I have all the answers for discipleship, you know, let's let's make me the center of things.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:31.519
So I think approaching a local church with an attitude of humility and service, that mindset, I think that's that's what you're saying.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.240
That's good.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.799
And and and I want to be friends with the pastor and the staff.
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Right.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:43.440
And um, like we had a speaker at church the other day.
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Actually, he wasn't speaker, he was just visiting.
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And he used to be on staff, and then he became a pastor in another place, and now he's going to be a pastor in a in an international church in Germany.
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And he said, Oh, yeah, I remember you.
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And you know, we knew each other back when he was on the staff of our of our church.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.000
And what I say is people have to show up.
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In other words, I go there and sit, and people know whether I'm there or whether I'm not because they're my friends, but the staff really appreciate that I come and are and are openly supported.
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It is critical for us to be involved in the local body of Christ in the church.
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Let's come to our pastors and elders and others in the local church with an attitude of humility and a desire to serve and build up the church as Jerry has described.
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Next time we hear how a great tragedy of Jerry's and his wife Mary's life was able to be redeemed.
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Join us right here on Making Disciples Naturally.
