Glenn Barnes: Unlocking Water Infrastructure Funding | Make Water Work 029

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The rates in small communities
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really should be significantly more than
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the rates in large cities. It's
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economies of scale. We don't have enough
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people to spread the cost out over, but
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there's a minimum cost of running a
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water utility or a wastewater utility,
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especially on the infrastructure side.
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But I think what we end up finding is
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that a lot of these small communities,
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they do enough to stay in compliance.
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The people who work there are wonderful
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and and they can manage to do a lot with
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a little. And I don't want to speak
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disparagingly of them in any way, shape,
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or form. They're real heroes in their
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communities. They're keeping the utility
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like just going and and they're all one
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natural disaster or public health crisis
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away from a really big problem. Welcome
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to the Make Water Work podcast, where we
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dive into the people, ideas, and
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innovation shaping the future of water.
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I'm your host, Isaac Pellerin, and
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alongside my co-host, Megan Glover, the
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founder of 120 Water, we bring you
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insights from hundreds of incredible
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conversations we've had over the past 9
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years with inspiring and energizing
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leaders in the water industry. Each
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week, we share those stories and
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conversations with entrepreneurs,
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community champions, and innovators who
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are making water work for everyone.
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Whether you're a water professional, a
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curious innovator, or simply passionate
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about our most precious resource, this
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podcast is for you. Let's get started.
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Well, hello everyone and welcome to this
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week's episode of the Make Water Work
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podcast where Isaac and I are speaking
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to the water professionals that are
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innovating and making water work every
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single day. So, who are we celebrating
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today, Isaac?
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>> You know, today we get to talk to
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someone who I've known for quite a while
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and both of us have known for quite a
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while. His name is Glenn Barnes and
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Glenn really works at the intersection
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of affordability. How do utilities
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update their critical infrastructure
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while still maintaining the uh
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importance of affordability for um for
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communities? Um and so it's a big topic.
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It's a big problem. We're always talking
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to utilities and regulators and states
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about how do you fund this? Um and it's
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not easy. So you need people who know
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how to navigate the challenges of uh of
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funding. um because this is mission
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critical. So um Glenn, we are so excited
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to welcome you to this podcast and um
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yeah, welcome.
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>> Well, thank you so much for having me.
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I'm delighted to be here.
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>> Yeah, we've as we've done um this
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podcast and as we've uh navigated inter
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uh interacting with folks all across the
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water industry, we've never run into
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anyone who didn't have a story about how
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water found them. And so we love
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starting this podcast just asking how
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did water find you?
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>> And I think it's I think it's really a
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good question of how it found me because
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I think that's more accurate than saying
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I found it. Uh as I think is true for
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many people. When I was an
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undergraduate, I was an English major
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and I was convinced that I wanted to be
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a a literature professor like you know
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the tweed jacket and pipe and whole nine
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yards and uh was ready to go and get my
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PhD but decided I just wanted a year off
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uh before I I continued on with my
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studies and I started working for an
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environmental nonprofit. Had nothing to
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do with water. it was uh more lobbying
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and policy work and I was working around
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energy and public health and really
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enjoyed the work. So I stayed a second
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year and then a third year and a fourth
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year and eventually after seven years of
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doing that kind of work and I was
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largely on the development side so
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fundraising side for these uh various
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organizations
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I thought you know I'd like to run a
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nonprofit someday but I don't really
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know how to do that. that my literature
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degree didn't entirely prepare me for
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that. So, I decided to get a master of
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public administration degree. And when I
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got to grad school, they said, "Well, we
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need to give you a research
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assistantship, and you have
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environmental backgrounds, so we're
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going to put you with this group called
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the Environmental Finance Center." And
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they uh are a group that does quite a
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lot of work with water. And I started
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there as a graduate student. that turned
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into a full-time gig that I stayed with
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for 12 years uh before leaving and and
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founding Water Finance Assistance back
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in 2019.
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And initially within that group, they
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did water, wastewater, storm water,
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wetlands, energy, air quality. I was
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doing almost everything but water.
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Everybody else was heavily water
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focused. I was more in the other
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environmental areas. But in 2012, the
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Environmental Finance Center Network
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applied for some EPA funding to do a
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training and technical assistance
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program for small communities. And they
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took a look at this project and said,
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"Well, this is going to be a lot of
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training and a lot of travel, and Glenn,
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you like traveling and giving workshops,
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so you should lead this project
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nationally." And so I got tapped to do
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that, even though I had the least water
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experience in the office. We ended up
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winning the funding and I ran that
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program with uh my wonderful colleague
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Heather Himlberger from the Southwest
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Environmental Finance Center for many
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years and that's really where I got
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deeply into water.
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>> Well, thank you. Uh thank you. I'm so
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glad water found you, Glenn, because you
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are literally on the forefront helping
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communities um oftentimes of uh maybe
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some of the greatest need find uh
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financing either within their their own
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rate base and optimizing that, but also
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kind of external sources. So for those
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um listening who may not understand how
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how funding works or uh the gap that
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potentially our water industry is facing
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right now, can you just do a state of of
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water funding 101 uh for the for the
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audience?
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>> Yeah, absolutely. And I and I think
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that's a really great question because
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it's important to understand the funding
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model that water and wastewater have,
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especially when they're run by
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governments because we tend to think
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that if something is run by the
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government, it's paid for by taxes. But
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in fact, that's not the case with water
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and wastewater. So they are what are
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known as enterprise funds. And that
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means that they are responsible for
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generating their own revenue to cover
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their own expenses. And typically that
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is done through charging customers for
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the water that they receive. And then
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there are some other well yeah if you're
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connecting a new customer that's going
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to be a little bit of source of revenue.
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If you're selling water to another
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community that might be another source
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of revenue but by and large the money
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that utilities get come from their
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customer base.
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>> Now that's the ideal model. The reality
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is that when the Safe Drinking Water Act
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and Clean Water Act were passed in the
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1970s,
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the federal government had a number of
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grant programs to help communities get
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up to speed on these new federal
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regulations. And so this big expense
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that water and wastewater have of paying
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for all of the pipes and treatment
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plants and tanks and towers and pumps
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and motors that they have, they
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basically got a check from the federal
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government. paid for by taxpayers around
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the country to put in that
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infrastructure and they did not have to
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pay that money back.
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Then as communities have expanded and
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many communities in the United States
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have expanded,
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they would say, "Okay, we're putting in
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100 new homes uh in town and we're going
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to ask the developer to actually pay to
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extend the water and wastewater
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infrastructure into that community."
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Mhm.
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>> So the developer pays for that and then
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essentially rolls that cost into the
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price of the homes that are being sold.
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>> Yeah.
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>> So we're paying rates to water
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utilities, but we're also in the past
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paid for some of the infrastructure
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through our federal tax dollars and then
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also some of us have paid for the water
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infrastructure through our mortgages
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without even realizing it. Mhm.
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>> Well, we're now to a point that those
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federal grants are are largely long
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gone. They've been replaced by low
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interest loans, which is still a a cost
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savings to utilities. And that
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development in communities is only
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paying for the new water lines.
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>> Well, all this infrastructure that went
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in in the 1970s
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>> is reaching a point where it needs to be
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replaced.
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>> Yeah. And so for the first time, we're
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at a point where we as water consumers
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are actually going to start to pay for
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the entire cost of the utility to
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actually become a true enterprise fund.
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And what that has meant unfortunately is
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that water rates that have been really
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been artificially low for decades are
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now climbing much more rapidly than they
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have in the past and in fact are often
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climbing higher or faster than the rates
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of other utilities.
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>> Yeah.
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>> You know, it's so interesting. I um I
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remember when we bought our first house
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uh in in Indianapolis and we were still
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on a septic system and I remember our
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corridor was going to be connected to
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the municipal sewer system all the time
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we were there and I mean we were we were
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making nothing at any you know we were
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just get you know starting our careers.
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We had no money but everyone in our
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neighborhood kept kept saying make sure
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you budget for it because it's going to
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cost about $5,000 to connect to your
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municipal sewer system. And I remember
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thinking, wait, hold on a minute. I have
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to come out of pocket to connect to the
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sewer system that then I have to start
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paying for. Like, how how does this
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work? Isn't this a, you know, isn't this
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just a municipal service, Glenn, that um
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I'm entitled to once I'm connected to
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it? Uh how often do you hear that? And
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and you know, how much of that do you
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think is, you know, education or, you
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know, so on and so forth?
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>> Yeah, I I I hear it a lot. I think, you
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know, I know all these nitty-gritty
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details because I literally have a
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master's degree in how to run local
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governments. And I think there's people
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within that program that didn't don't
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necessarily understand these nuances as
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well.
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>> But I think, Megan, that the truth is we
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chose to make water and wastewater a
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utility. Hm.
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>> We could have also chosen to make it a
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public service like police and fire that
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is paid for out of taxes, but we did not
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make that choice. We have chosen to make
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it something that is is customer
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supported and fee supported.
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>> Yeah. And I think there's a lot of
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arguments as to why that's the right way
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to do things. Because if I'm very frugal
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with my water use and somebody else is
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very wasteful, it seems fair that I
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should pay less than than they do. But
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people, yeah, they they don't
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necessarily understand the difference
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between, say, public schools and public
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safety and public water supply. They
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they just get this bill, right? And as
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you said, when there is a capital
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improvement to be done, and that's often
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the most expensive part of running a
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utility is replacing these multi-million
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dollar assets, which by the way are
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still multi-million dollars if your
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community is 150 people, right?
00:11:57.040 --> 00:11:59.190
>> Let alone a large city.
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:00.790
>> You know, in Indianapolis, you can
00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:03.110
spread the cost out over a a large
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.990
number of customers. Phoenix, it's the
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.110
same thing. But I work in really tiny
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.910
communities that have, you know, a
00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:14.870
hundred connections and if they have a
00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:17.190
$2 million piece of infrastructure to
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:18.710
put in there, that's going to be really
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:20.310
expensive, even if they're getting a
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.990
long-term loan uh to pay for that cost.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.069
Whereas, again, 50 years ago, a
00:12:26.079 --> 00:12:28.310
community of that size probably just got
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.430
a check to go out and buy the the
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:32.870
infrastructure and then they didn't have
00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:34.150
to worry about paying it back.
00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:35.430
>> Yeah, it's fascinating. It's such an
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.829
interesting distinction too that you
00:12:37.839 --> 00:12:41.030
made because I I think even for myself
00:12:41.040 --> 00:12:43.990
what I'm learning in this very moment is
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.269
just that I like
00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:51.269
I do have a mindset that it's a public
00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:54.470
good public service just like fire
00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.629
department just like police department.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:00.470
It's um it's such an uh it's such a
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.230
tough mindset to say that when I live
00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:03.269
somewhere,
00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.590
>> my community has these services and that
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:08.069
just comes from my taxes. Um
00:13:08.079 --> 00:13:10.150
>> and um
00:13:10.160 --> 00:13:12.550
>> yeah, so it it's understanding I'm
00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:15.590
having an aha moment. Sorry.
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:17.750
>> Coming back. No, no, but it's just like
00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:21.269
that that's such a difficult paradigm
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:22.949
shift to make in the mind of the public
00:13:22.959 --> 00:13:25.430
to say, "Oh, this is different than
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.750
these other things." So the reactions to
00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:34.150
rates uh increasing or um those kind of
00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:36.790
things kind of make sense that um that's
00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:38.949
like I didn't see that coming. Why why
00:13:38.959 --> 00:13:41.110
does why doesn't it work the way
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.509
everything else works?
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.590
>> And yet at the same time I think in you
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.310
know in our modern society you need
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.350
electricity to be able to to survive and
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:53.590
thrive. You need some type of heating
00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.590
source. Uh really I think internet is is
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.310
becoming more of a necessity than a nice
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.069
to have and I think we certainly saw
00:14:02.079 --> 00:14:04.310
that with with COVID and schools for
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.110
example moving online and so there you
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.110
know there are plenty of other examples
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:14.389
of utility services that we need. Um now
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.629
you're going to die more quickly without
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.870
water than any of those others. That's
00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:23.269
definitely true. But I think that it's
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.069
not there are other parts of our society
00:14:26.079 --> 00:14:27.509
where there are things that we really
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.430
need to function that are set up this
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.629
way in in utilities. And I think unlike
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.430
those other examples of electricity and
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.110
natural gas or heating oil or internet,
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.470
by and large, more people are served by
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.870
a government-owned utility in the United
00:14:44.880 --> 00:14:46.710
States, whereas the other utility
00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.230
services tend to be privately owned.
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:49.750
Now, of course, we do a privately owned
00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:53.430
water utilities as well.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.389
>> Yeah. So, so Glenn, you you mentioned
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.670
we've got um so we think about uh how
00:14:59.680 --> 00:15:03.670
the utility pays its bills and produces
00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:05.590
um its product, which is clean and
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:07.829
reliable drinking and and waste water
00:15:07.839 --> 00:15:09.829
and sewer services, right? Um we have
00:15:09.839 --> 00:15:11.350
the rate base. You you keep talking
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:13.590
about these loans, right? So maybe
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.949
describe for us um where are the sources
00:15:16.959 --> 00:15:21.189
of these loans and is the are the monies
00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:23.670
readily available? What's the barrier to
00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:26.550
access these loans? Um is it enough?
00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:28.550
Unpack the the loans that you're kind of
00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:30.550
speaking of for a minute to kind of uh
00:15:30.560 --> 00:15:33.910
help us understand um the accessibility
00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:37.269
of of capital in in our water space.
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.910
>> Absolutely. So, a utility,
00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:44.230
if it needs to borrow money to say put
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:45.990
in a piece of infrastructure that's
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.590
going to cost a couple million dollars,
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.670
they could walk down the street to a
00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:52.389
bank in the community just like you or I
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:53.829
could if we need to make an improvement
00:15:53.839 --> 00:15:57.430
on our house or or start a business and
00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.110
fill out the paperwork and take out a
00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.350
loan. That happens very rarely, but it
00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.509
could happen.
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:05.990
>> Larger communities will also go to the
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.030
bond market. So, they will look to get a
00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.509
group of investors to loan them money
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.150
with a guaranteed rate of return on on
00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:16.949
those dollars. But that's something that
00:16:16.959 --> 00:16:19.189
small to medium-sized communities are
00:16:19.199 --> 00:16:21.430
often not going to be able to access the
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.509
the bond market very easily. That's a
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.389
very complicated, long, expensive
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.310
process that I understand about this
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.269
much of. So, I won't go into much detail
00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:33.910
other than to say typically you're going
00:16:33.920 --> 00:16:35.829
to be talking about your larger cities
00:16:35.839 --> 00:16:38.230
are are dealing with the bond market.
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.069
For most communities, if they need to
00:16:40.079 --> 00:16:42.949
borrow money, they're going to look at a
00:16:42.959 --> 00:16:46.949
government uh sponsored program. And so
00:16:46.959 --> 00:16:49.749
probably the two largest ones to to talk
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.110
about are um on the one hand the clean
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.590
water and drinking water state revolving
00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:56.550
funds
00:16:56.560 --> 00:16:58.790
>> and then on the other hand uh a loan
00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:00.629
program offered by the US department of
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:02.389
agriculture. So let me start with the
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.870
state revolving funds or sometimes our
00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.110
you know our acronym happy industry
00:17:07.120 --> 00:17:10.470
calls it the SRF programs. So what
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.069
happens with these programs is the
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.029
federal government every year allocates
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.069
a chunk of money to their state
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.390
partners, territorial partners as well,
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.029
but state partners to then seed a
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.270
revolving loan fund. So that money is
00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:29.669
loaned out then to communities for water
00:17:29.679 --> 00:17:32.470
infrastructure. And each state has a
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.870
scoring criteria that they look at. You
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.630
bring them an application that says, "We
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.029
need to build a water tower and here's
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.110
why." And they'll score that application
00:17:41.120 --> 00:17:43.909
and the top scorers get the loans. And
00:17:43.919 --> 00:17:46.310
then as that money is repaid to the
00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:49.270
state, the state then takes those
00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:52.630
repayments and loans that money out to
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.789
the next borrower in need.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:55.110
>> Yeah.
00:17:55.120 --> 00:17:58.470
>> So they're meant to be set up as self-
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:00.710
sustaining programs, but they do get an
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.669
infusion of federal money every year.
00:18:03.679 --> 00:18:04.789
>> Well,
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:06.390
So far, they've been getting a federal
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.070
infusion every year. That's not a
00:18:08.080 --> 00:18:09.270
guarantee.
00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:10.070
>> Yeah.
00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:13.990
>> Then for smaller communities, the US
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.230
Department of Agriculture, USDA, the
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.310
same USDA, by the way, that does beef
00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:20.630
inspection and all that kind of thing.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:22.310
We think of them, they're like the stake
00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:23.510
people, right?
00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:26.070
>> Well, they're really about community and
00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:29.270
economic development in rural America.
00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:29.669
Mhm.
00:18:29.679 --> 00:18:32.230
>> And so if you're under 10,000 people
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.430
served, you are eligible to apply for
00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.630
funding from USDA. And the advantage of
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.870
that is that that is a program that is
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:42.789
specifically targeting those smaller
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:44.549
communities that sometimes would have a
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.110
more difficult time competing for the
00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:50.549
state revolving fund loans. Now, the two
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.070
big exciting things that have been
00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:53.750
happening in the last couple of years,
00:18:53.760 --> 00:18:57.190
one is the bipartisan infrastructure law
00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.590
or the in uh infrastructure investment
00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:03.830
and job acts IIGA or bill in our acronym
00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:05.830
heavy industry again, which are both
00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:09.750
terrible. Um, this basically just dumped
00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:13.510
a ton of extra money into these programs
00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.750
as well as created some special pots of
00:19:15.760 --> 00:19:17.909
money for lead service line replacement
00:19:17.919 --> 00:19:19.990
and for POS.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.110
So that has brought extra dollars to the
00:19:23.120 --> 00:19:24.710
table which is exciting.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.590
>> Mhm. But then on the other hand, as um
00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:31.990
Congress for about a 10-year period
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.029
stopped doing what are known as earmarks
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.630
or congressionally directed spending or
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.350
pork if you would prefer. Uh but
00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:43.750
essentially where a member of Congress
00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:45.990
is going to say, "I'm going to write a
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.630
law that says this town in my district
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:50.630
is going to get $2 million for a water
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.630
project." Well, a couple years ago, they
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.830
brought that back. And you know, this is
00:19:55.840 --> 00:19:58.710
the the grease that makes Congress work.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.470
I don't think we're always happy to hear
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.549
that, but like Congress works better
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:04.789
when you can trade somebody a project in
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.310
their district for their vote on
00:20:06.320 --> 00:20:08.150
something, and that's just the way it
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.270
is.
00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:12.390
>> Um, but this congressionally directed
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:14.789
spending is essentially a grant that
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.710
does not have to be repaid. And people
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:18.310
in the water sector thought, "This is
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:19.750
great, right? We're going to get some
00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:24.630
projects paid for." The problem is that
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.909
Congress deducts the amount of that
00:20:27.919 --> 00:20:31.029
earmark from that pot of money it gives
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.630
to the states for the state revolving
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.350
fund every year. And now instead of
00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:38.630
going with the state's criteria of
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.990
whether a project is worthy or not, it
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.190
often comes down to is this particular
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.430
community wellconnected with their
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:48.390
member of Congress.
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.070
>> Yes. And so that all of a sudden creates
00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:56.710
a funding gap. So one of my questions is
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.510
like what are the other in the work that
00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:01.350
you do like what what are the other
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:03.510
funding sources that communities then
00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:05.510
turn to to try to
00:21:05.520 --> 00:21:08.870
>> make up when they're like if SRF is
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.830
already earmarked and spoken for
00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:13.750
>> but there are still needs like how do
00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:16.070
they navigate that type of um financing
00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:17.830
situation?
00:21:17.840 --> 00:21:19.990
This is a big problem and and you talk
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.669
about the funding gap. So every couple
00:21:21.679 --> 00:21:25.350
of years EPA assesses the amount of
00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:27.909
capital projects needed over the next 20
00:21:27.919 --> 00:21:29.590
years in the water sector and in the
00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:33.110
wastewater sector. It's hundreds of
00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:35.190
billions of dollars, maybe even
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.029
trillions of dollars at this point. I
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.310
don't remember the number off the top of
00:21:38.320 --> 00:21:41.190
my head, but the bipartisan
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:42.950
infrastructure law, the largest
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.710
infrastructure bill we've seen in our
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.190
lifetimes, was, forgive the pun, a drop
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.430
in the bucket compared to this 20-year
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:53.750
need. And so I I often think what's
00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:56.470
happening is
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.789
some of these communities are trying to
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.190
find another source of money. Maybe they
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.789
are trying to go to the bond market.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.710
Some states are are coming up with their
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.710
own dollars to supplement the federal
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.110
money or they're helping
00:22:09.120 --> 00:22:11.430
smaller communities by aggregating
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.590
projects into a single bond offering.
00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:15.909
You see a lot of creativeness, but the
00:22:15.919 --> 00:22:17.029
biggest thing that's happening is
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:18.470
they're delaying doing projects,
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:18.789
>> right?
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:19.350
>> Yeah.
00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:22.470
>> And the problem with that
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.630
is number one, it's always cheaper to
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.110
replace an asset proactively than
00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.510
reactively. So if you know that this
00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:34.230
tank is vital for providing service to
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.710
your community, you really want to
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.029
replace it before it has a complete
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.270
failure or your whole community might be
00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:44.710
facing no water or a you know if it's a
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.230
treatment plant, say a dangerous
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.029
situation with the water,
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.510
>> it's never a good idea to delay. You're
00:22:51.520 --> 00:22:53.110
threatening public health, but most
00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:55.029
likely that project will now be more
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.190
expensive in a couple of years when the
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.390
money is available. So, I I know y'all
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:03.830
had uh my buddy George Hawkins on uh on
00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:05.750
this series already. George and I were
00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:07.830
at a conference together maybe about
00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:09.750
five years ago, and I remember his quote
00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:11.750
was something like, you know, the
00:23:11.760 --> 00:23:14.070
bipartisan infrastructure law is more
00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:17.350
money than we have ever seen, but it is
00:23:17.360 --> 00:23:22.310
not enough. And I think that level of
00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:25.830
investment either needs to keep coming
00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:28.070
or utilities are going to have to start
00:23:28.080 --> 00:23:30.549
to use these private lending options
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.630
more than they have in the past.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.750
>> I have I've been developing a hypothesis
00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:38.870
because you mentioned that the EPA looks
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.789
at and estimates what it would cost to
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:44.950
update our infrastructure. I think
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.350
they're doing that with inadequate data.
00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:48.950
like I don't know that they have a
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.270
really um robust standardized way of
00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:56.230
assessing the criticality of assets,
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.149
what it costs to replace. I think that I
00:23:58.159 --> 00:24:00.149
think I think the fidelity of that data
00:24:00.159 --> 00:24:03.190
could get a um a lot better. And I've
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.669
been wondering if there's a um a play in
00:24:07.679 --> 00:24:09.750
the next
00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:11.750
one or two election cycles to really
00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:14.710
make a push for another infrastructure
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.510
bill that's more addressing criticality
00:24:17.520 --> 00:24:20.230
of assets more than it is water quality.
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.390
Like so much in the last one was around
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.029
lead and POS and water quality.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.190
>> Um I'm curious from your perspective
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.149
like how the criticality of assets, the
00:24:30.159 --> 00:24:32.549
asset management plans. um how do those
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.230
look for communities and um I guess I'm
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.149
looking for your reaction on like does
00:24:38.159 --> 00:24:40.149
that check out? It's a working theory,
00:24:40.159 --> 00:24:42.310
but um yeah,
00:24:42.320 --> 00:24:44.870
>> there's there's two issues here, Isaac.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.710
So the the first is I think you're
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.029
right. You know, the the way that EPA
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.630
does this is a a survey. And there are
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.870
ways, you know, I remember from my my
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:57.750
graduate school days that you can come
00:24:57.760 --> 00:25:00.310
up with a representative sample of
00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:02.630
utilities and you can extrapolate out
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.549
from there. But you are extrapolating.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:06.549
You're not literally asking every
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.669
community what do you need. The problem
00:25:09.679 --> 00:25:12.870
is if you were to do that, the answer
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:15.430
that most communities would give because
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.630
most utilities are small utilities is we
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.070
don't know.
00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:23.029
>> Yep. because they're not doing asset
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.350
management. They don't have a good grasp
00:25:25.360 --> 00:25:27.510
on that and they are being unfortunately
00:25:27.520 --> 00:25:30.470
more reactive when when disasters happen
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.110
to replacing infrastructure. So I think
00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:35.029
you're 100% right that we don't have the
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:36.870
data that we need nor do I think the
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.669
data that we need actually even exist.
00:25:39.679 --> 00:25:42.630
Um that's number one. And then number
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:44.710
two is
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.590
I do think that investing in
00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:49.190
infrastructure
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.549
is something that most people feel like
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.350
is a role that government can play. You
00:25:55.360 --> 00:25:57.430
know, this was a bipartisan
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.070
infrastructure law and it had a lot of
00:26:00.080 --> 00:26:03.110
popular support on both sides of the
00:26:03.120 --> 00:26:06.549
aisle and there were, you know, even
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:09.830
folks who voted against the bill were
00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:13.990
then happy once it passed to champion
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.710
projects in their own districts and and
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.029
areas and go out and be a cheerleader
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.590
for the bill. And you know, you can be a
00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:23.029
little cynical about the political
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:24.950
process one way or the other, but it was
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:26.710
obvious the bill was going to pass.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.350
>> Sure.
00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:29.669
>> And I think that
00:26:29.679 --> 00:26:31.669
>> there's a lot of things that people
00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:33.590
disagree with that government should be
00:26:33.600 --> 00:26:35.430
involved in. But I think this is one of
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.549
the things that people understand would
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.110
be a value that government can add to
00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:43.430
our lives at a federal or state level,
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:45.990
not just at a local level. And also I
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.269
feel like people get a sense that
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.350
unfortunately as a country we we may be
00:26:49.360 --> 00:26:51.510
slipping behind other countries in terms
00:26:51.520 --> 00:26:54.310
of the infrastructure that we have and
00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:57.750
it has not in my mind we haven't seen a
00:26:57.760 --> 00:26:59.750
significant impact on the economy of
00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:01.430
that. We're still the largest economy in
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.990
the world but there may reach a point
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.149
where failing infrastructure is going to
00:27:06.159 --> 00:27:09.669
start to limit our ability to be
00:27:09.679 --> 00:27:11.750
economically competitive. And I think if
00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:13.590
that happens,
00:27:13.600 --> 00:27:15.110
you know, you're going to see the the
00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:17.269
floodgates open in terms of some of the
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:18.230
federal investment.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.549
>> And I think there's also that there's
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.750
some um in my opinion, change management
00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:25.269
needs to happen about how to even
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.909
operate a water utility. I mean, Isaac,
00:27:27.919 --> 00:27:29.350
we say all the time that the majority of
00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:31.190
our water systems have three or fewer
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.430
employees. And while we've just been
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.590
talking about how utilities are in the
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:37.590
business of producing water, those
00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:39.029
employees are also in the business of
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.789
serving their municipality. you know,
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.390
going to their parks, taking care of
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.470
their community community assets, not
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.430
just not just their so I feel like until
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.549
we as an industry and communities start
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.750
to optimize these water systems like
00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:55.669
businesses and understand what
00:27:55.679 --> 00:27:58.470
investment looks like, what what um
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.269
positive investment looks like in your
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:02.870
community and in your water system
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.549
versus I'm going to take this million
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.710
dollar check, give it to my engineering
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.510
buddy, you know, let him overengineer
00:28:09.520 --> 00:28:11.990
whatever ever assets I presumably need
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.590
and then go back to the well and be in
00:28:13.600 --> 00:28:15.590
the same you know situation 10 years
00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:17.190
from now like we need to be in the
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:18.230
business of building resilient
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:19.269
communities and I definitely think
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.269
there's like an education layer of what
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.350
does that mean to operate a utility in
00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.990
this day and age and I I I don't know I
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.830
mean I I think it's a multi-prong
00:28:27.840 --> 00:28:30.070
approach faceted approach but I do think
00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:31.750
you know we need to understand what that
00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:33.510
layer looks like if we're going to start
00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:36.070
advocating for um a substantial amount
00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:38.310
of funding um coming coming to
00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:40.870
>> and there's an aspect of helping people
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:44.470
like understand the cost of not doing
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.029
something. And I think kind of one of
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.990
the points that you were making earlier
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.230
was hitting on like we almost need a
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.430
handful more of disasters when it comes
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.470
to asset failure to mo to start
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.470
motivating the next
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.669
>> the cost of of understanding. And I I
00:29:05.679 --> 00:29:09.430
think that one of the
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.669
One of the things in the bipartisan
00:29:11.679 --> 00:29:14.070
infrastructure law or IIGA, I think
00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:16.389
there was a mentality that a lot of that
00:29:16.399 --> 00:29:18.149
funding got sucked up by larger
00:29:18.159 --> 00:29:23.190
communities and and I think an asset
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.190
data
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.870
um platformbased funding model would
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.830
show that it's more ubiquitous and more
00:29:31.840 --> 00:29:34.630
um that would actually go to help
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.149
communities of all sizes, particularly
00:29:36.159 --> 00:29:37.510
rural water. Um,
00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:39.269
>> yeah, let's yeah, we'll give you this,
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:41.350
but let's help you be more predictive
00:29:41.360 --> 00:29:43.830
and smart about tracking your assets
00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:45.990
over time and the likelihood of failure
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:47.669
versus, oh no, now we're in a
00:29:47.679 --> 00:29:49.190
catastrophe scenario and it's going to
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:50.789
cost us 10 times as much to fix.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.230
>> And being able to be realistic about
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.230
rate cases. I think that's part of it is
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.789
like understanding what should what
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.470
should we set rates to be. That way we
00:29:58.480 --> 00:29:59.990
can actually say what do we need
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.870
supplemented? Um, but again, I'm I'm
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.190
saying a lot, assuming a lot. Tell me
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.669
where I'm wrong. um or tell me your
00:30:07.679 --> 00:30:09.110
perspective on that.
00:30:09.120 --> 00:30:12.310
>> My perspective is we have far too many
00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:15.190
water utilities in the United States.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.430
And you know these very very small
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:20.389
towns, there's a lot of small town
00:30:20.399 --> 00:30:22.389
pride. They don't want to give up
00:30:22.399 --> 00:30:24.870
control over the water. They're afraid
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:26.870
if they give up control over the water
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.310
supply and they want to grow,
00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:31.830
they're not going to have the water they
00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:35.110
need to grow. So they they hold on to
00:30:35.120 --> 00:30:39.350
these utilities and and frankly those
00:30:39.360 --> 00:30:41.430
construction grants in the 1970s and
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.029
early 1980s basically allowed these
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.950
communities that could not sustain
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.470
themselves as utilities to exist as a
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.149
utility because somebody paid for all
00:30:52.159 --> 00:30:55.269
the really expensive stuff. So I I feel
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.669
like as a country,
00:30:57.679 --> 00:30:58.310
>> great point.
00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:02.230
>> If we want to continue to have thousands
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:05.669
upon thousands of of small town water
00:31:05.679 --> 00:31:09.590
utilities, we have to commit to to
00:31:09.600 --> 00:31:11.669
understand, yeah, if they have 150
00:31:11.679 --> 00:31:13.510
connections, they can't take out a loan
00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:16.070
for $4 million. It's just going to be
00:31:16.080 --> 00:31:17.909
too much on top of their day-to-day
00:31:17.919 --> 00:31:20.710
operations. So we need to find a way to
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.149
consolidate systems or and I I get dirty
00:31:24.159 --> 00:31:27.110
looks when I say this, privatize some of
00:31:27.120 --> 00:31:29.510
the systems, go to this like private,
00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:33.510
you know, uh aggregator model that um
00:31:33.520 --> 00:31:35.269
there are multiple of these larger
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.029
investorown utilities that they
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.350
basically buy up a bunch of systems and
00:31:39.360 --> 00:31:41.750
operate them as a single utility entity
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:43.269
even though they're not physically tied
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.230
together. or we need to commit to saying
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.549
yes, we're going to continue to pump
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.710
grant dollars into these communities.
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:52.310
Right now, we're kind of doing the worst
00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:54.870
of both worlds. We're we're, you know,
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.029
creating something where these
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:59.269
communities either have to take out a
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.509
loan that they may not be able to afford
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:05.509
or even access or to delay a necessary
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.909
capital improvement, but then not
00:32:07.919 --> 00:32:10.070
insisting when they take out that money
00:32:10.080 --> 00:32:12.950
necessarily that they look at a regional
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.870
solution that would be more financially
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.110
viable o over the long run. And so
00:32:19.120 --> 00:32:22.950
the rates in small communities
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.310
really should be significantly more than
00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:29.190
the rates in large cities because we
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.590
don't have it's economies of scale. We
00:32:31.600 --> 00:32:33.269
don't have enough people to spread the
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:35.269
cost out over. But there's a minimum
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.110
cost of running a water utility or a
00:32:37.120 --> 00:32:39.590
wastewater utility, especially on the
00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:42.149
infrastructure side. But I think what we
00:32:42.159 --> 00:32:43.909
end up finding is that a lot of these
00:32:43.919 --> 00:32:46.549
small communities, they do enough to
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.310
stay in compliance. The people who work
00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:50.070
there are wonderful and and they can
00:32:50.080 --> 00:32:52.389
manage to do a lot with a little. And I
00:32:52.399 --> 00:32:54.230
don't want to speak disparagingly of
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:56.070
them in any way, shape, or form. They're
00:32:56.080 --> 00:32:59.830
real heroes in their communities, but
00:32:59.840 --> 00:33:02.870
they're keeping the utility like just
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:03.830
going,
00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:06.310
>> right? and and they're all one natural
00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:09.269
disaster or public health crisis away
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:10.870
from a really big
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:12.630
>> lot of single points of failure,
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:13.269
>> right?
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.509
>> For
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.710
Yeah. Well, and and um you know, we
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:21.430
we've had others on on the podcast as
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.269
well, you know, speaking to
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.549
regionalization and um commercialization
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.389
and or privatization and
00:33:28.399 --> 00:33:29.990
regionalization. And there's something
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.590
there's a notion that I've I've heard
00:33:31.600 --> 00:33:32.789
more consistently and I don't know if
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:33.990
it's because we've talked about it on
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.230
the podcast or maybe it's just coming up
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:39.590
in practice where maybe not the entirety
00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:42.230
of the utility is consolidated but
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.870
operational pieces. So you know if I'm
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.669
in a region with a shared uh you know
00:33:47.679 --> 00:33:50.470
water source and you know chemistry
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:52.470
profile or so on so forth it may make
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.110
sense or you know rate base it may make
00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:57.909
sense to consolidate rate base
00:33:57.919 --> 00:34:00.710
operations but yet leave certain spokes
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.750
of the utility intact so not to lose you
00:34:03.760 --> 00:34:07.029
know full control to a private entity or
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:08.869
um you know third party. What is your
00:34:08.879 --> 00:34:11.589
take on on that uh strategy, Glenn? And
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.430
and where do you do you think that have
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.629
that has any legs um to stand on?
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.430
>> I I think we see a lot of this already
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:21.270
happening, you know, at small
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:22.869
communities
00:34:22.879 --> 00:34:24.550
>> sometimes are contracting with
00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:26.790
operators. So, one operator may end up
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.109
serving three or four communities. Let's
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.030
say they're, you know, like they have
00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:33.510
their own business and they go around,
00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:36.069
>> they're being contracted out. That is in
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:37.990
some ways a form of regionalization.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.230
Even those individual utilities don't
00:34:40.240 --> 00:34:41.829
have a relationship with each other.
00:34:41.839 --> 00:34:43.510
They all have a relationship with the
00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:46.550
same contract operator. We do see that
00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:48.790
kind of shared sources or shared
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.190
infrastructure. I think there's a lot of
00:34:51.200 --> 00:34:52.869
models that could work. I don't I don't
00:34:52.879 --> 00:34:54.950
want to be I'm being a little glib here,
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:58.310
you know, but I I do think that um
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.069
there's been research like Manny
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.390
Teodoro, who's a great thought leader in
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.950
our sector, has said, you know, if a
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.190
community if a utility is serving under
00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:08.870
20,000 people, it's going to really
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:11.109
struggle to be financially viable. You
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:12.630
know, that's one measurement. There are
00:35:12.640 --> 00:35:15.430
others have come up with other numbers.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.109
But again, in the long term, can a
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.870
community of of three or 400 people be
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.430
viable without grants? I think it would
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.630
be very very difficult. And I I think
00:35:28.640 --> 00:35:32.230
though we're nervous to talk about
00:35:32.240 --> 00:35:34.790
consolidation and we're nervous to talk
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:39.990
about um pushing consolidation,
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.470
not even forcing it, but even pushing
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.670
it, you know, in in some cases because
00:35:45.680 --> 00:35:47.430
it does feel like, well, these are
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.589
independent small communities and people
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.349
have a lot of identity in that community
00:35:51.359 --> 00:35:54.310
and they don't want a a state or federal
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:56.150
government coming in and saying you have
00:35:56.160 --> 00:35:58.710
to give up a piece of that but I don't
00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:01.589
know that the decisions are always made
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:03.829
with either public health or good
00:36:03.839 --> 00:36:06.069
business sense as the top priority.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:06.470
Yeah.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:08.390
>> Yeah. Gosh, this is very
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:09.270
thoughtprovoking.
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.270
>> It is. And it it is that that
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.829
delineation between
00:36:13.839 --> 00:36:17.829
um making pushes for what just makes
00:36:17.839 --> 00:36:22.470
sense and also um ensuring it's not it's
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:24.630
not received as a personal attack. Like
00:36:24.640 --> 00:36:25.910
it's it's not
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:28.390
>> it's not that you're inadequate, it's
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.030
that the system is not set up to be
00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:31.750
sustainable
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:33.030
>> to help you succeed. Yeah.
00:36:33.040 --> 00:36:34.310
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.710
>> Oh, this is wonderful. Well, um you
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:38.950
know, I think uh we definitely want to
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.790
know let people know, Glenn, where they
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:43.589
can find you um both uh if they need
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:45.349
your assistance, but also just generally
00:36:45.359 --> 00:36:47.430
where you are. But first, I there's got
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.829
to be a story to that giraffe that that
00:36:49.839 --> 00:36:51.670
I I'm staring at and have been staring
00:36:51.680 --> 00:36:55.910
at for the last 30 minutes.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.230
Yes, there is of course a story about
00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:01.589
the wicker giraffe and um and thank you
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.750
for asking that. So when I my wife and I
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:07.349
bought this house that we're living in
00:37:07.359 --> 00:37:09.910
now for uh almost 20 years ago, it'll be
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:13.510
20 years this summer. And uh I think our
00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:15.750
respective families were quite excited
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.230
that we had become homeowners because
00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:20.790
this was an opportunity for them to
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.670
offload the things of our childhood that
00:37:23.680 --> 00:37:25.589
we were that they were holding on to at
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:28.710
their homes. And so uh my in-laws came
00:37:28.720 --> 00:37:32.069
down uh with some of my wife's things
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:34.870
and they brought this giraffe um which
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.190
I'm not convinced was one of her things,
00:37:37.200 --> 00:37:38.950
but they thought that we would like it.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:41.510
And so it sat in the corner of this
00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:45.270
guest room for many years. And then uh
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.190
in the early days of the pandemic when
00:37:47.200 --> 00:37:49.109
we started doing everything by video
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.150
call, you know, Zoom and and Teams, uh
00:37:52.160 --> 00:37:54.630
Tara suggested to me that I stick the
00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:56.790
giraffe behind me and just not say
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.790
anything about it and just leave it
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:03.270
there. So I did. And uh it ironically
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.030
has become a little bit of our our
00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:06.710
trademark of having this this
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:09.270
mid-century wicker giraffe uh standing
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.230
sitting behind me. So a couple of years
00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:16.630
ago, I started uh working with
00:38:16.640 --> 00:38:18.790
uh a wonderful colleague who's now our
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:20.870
associate director, Allora Arnett, but
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.950
she initially was part-time with us
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.710
while she was still working for a water
00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:28.710
utility. And I had said to Allora, you
00:38:28.720 --> 00:38:31.190
know, if you become full-time, I'm going
00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:34.150
to get you one of these giraffes. And so
00:38:34.160 --> 00:38:37.109
when she uh became our associate
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:38.950
director almost two years ago, I said,
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.430
"Okay, I've made a promise that I'm
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:43.349
going to get a giraffe. Now I have to
00:38:43.359 --> 00:38:46.390
find one." Well, I mean, these were like
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:50.230
mid 20th century made, so I had to
00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:52.550
search high and low, but finally found
00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:56.150
one and had it shipped to her. And I I
00:38:56.160 --> 00:38:57.430
texted her and I said, "Okay, you're
00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:59.670
going to get a delivery today. You know,
00:38:59.680 --> 00:39:03.510
make sure you're there for it." And um
00:39:03.520 --> 00:39:06.230
she just texted me back after it
00:39:06.240 --> 00:39:08.390
arrived. And just said, "I cannot stop
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.829
laughing at this thing." and picture of
00:39:11.839 --> 00:39:13.990
like her her little daughter who was was
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.750
very young at the time, not even a year,
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:18.150
like on the back of the giraffe. So,
00:39:18.160 --> 00:39:19.910
>> yeah. So, we we've got our we've got our
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.829
little wicker giraffe here. And uh you
00:39:21.839 --> 00:39:23.589
can also see, by the way, over my other
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:25.990
shoulder is our CEO is uh sleeping on
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.550
the bed.
00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:29.109
>> Yes.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.349
>> Oh, I love it. It's a good disarming way
00:39:31.359 --> 00:39:33.750
to start any conversation about water f
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:35.750
water finance. And hey, let's talk about
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.430
water rates.
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.550
>> But first, but first,
00:39:38.560 --> 00:39:40.310
>> have you met my little friend? First, a
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.069
mid-century wicker giraffe. And it's
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.750
actually a planter
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:45.750
>> is is what it really is. There's a space
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:47.910
in the back where you would put a a a
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:48.870
potted plant.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:49.990
>> Oh, that's amazing.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.030
>> Oh, that is amazing.
00:39:51.040 --> 00:39:52.870
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. So, where
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.790
where can people find more of you,
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.670
follow your work, uh know where you're
00:39:57.680 --> 00:39:59.270
traveling next to? I think you're
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.829
traveling in the next next two months.
00:40:01.839 --> 00:40:04.069
You're on the road um speaking and doing
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.150
a lot of work. So, where can people find
00:40:06.160 --> 00:40:09.190
you? Our website waterfinanceass
00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:11.750
assistance.com has information about all
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:14.710
the services that we provide. I mean we
00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:17.910
obviously work with utilities on money
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.910
problems. That's a a big deal as we've
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.430
been talking about today. Uh we also
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:26.630
through URA work with utility on people
00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:29.030
problems. So she's a former HR director
00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:30.870
and customer service director for
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.349
utilities. And really I think those are
00:40:33.359 --> 00:40:36.950
the two big areas that um I've seen a
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.710
lot of need on and as somebody who is
00:40:38.720 --> 00:40:41.109
not a technical expert or areas where I
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:42.470
feel like we can make a difference in
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.109
the water sector. So our website has a
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.990
good explanation of of the types of work
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.390
that we can do as well as updates on
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:52.790
some of our current projects. Um we've
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.630
been doing a lot on making good charts
00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:56.470
and graphs and explaining all this
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:58.390
complicated analyses to people. So
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:00.550
that's a whole other conversation we
00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:03.190
could have that I think is is great. Uh
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:05.109
and then beyond that, I'm uh pretty
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.589
active on LinkedIn and so uh anybody
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:10.230
who's listening, if you don't uh follow
00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:12.069
me or not connected with me on LinkedIn,
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:13.510
please reach out. Would love to connect
00:41:13.520 --> 00:41:15.670
with you. And I'm posting pretty
00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:18.710
regularly on there about our work and
00:41:18.720 --> 00:41:22.550
and our travels, but also the um some
00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:25.109
information about water finance that is
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:27.750
in the news around the country. I love
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:28.630
it.
00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:31.109
>> Well, thank you so much. Um, yeah, this
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:32.790
has been so great. And thank you to
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.870
everyone who tuned in to this
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.270
conversation. We love getting to have
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.990
conversations like this with folks like
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:41.910
Glenn. And so, if you've enjoyed this
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.710
episode, please like, share, follow,
00:41:44.720 --> 00:41:47.030
comment, let us know who you would love
00:41:47.040 --> 00:41:48.950
to hear from, someone who makes water
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.430
work. And we'll see you next time.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.270
Thanks for listening to the Make Water
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.589
Work podcast. If you enjoyed today's
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.069
episode, please take a moment to like,
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.470
share, and subscribe so you never miss a
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.790
conversation. We'd love to hear your
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.950
thoughts and questions. Connect with us
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.109
on LinkedIn or send us a message.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.190
Together, we can make water work for
00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:12.200
everyone.