Kayfabe Math is Now Mainstream

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NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 9/13/2026 5:19:22 PM
Duration: 4636.944
Channels: 1
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Alright. Magic Internet Math
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is back.
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We back, baby.
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We back. We can never go away, and there's too much going on.
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Sometimes I do wonder
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just how busy,
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certainly how busy you are, how busy I am. Can we keep this going? And then
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like the universe just keeps taunting us.
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We're, this is good use of rage bait to get us back Just Yeah. Back on schedule. Yeah. Like, I I just say right before we hit record, we now have math pop culture. Like, the the the universe is calling out to us and trolling us to get us on the mic.
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I think so. I do. I
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I
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I try never to ignore the signals from the universe.
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Right.
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You know?
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God, it's been so I mean, it's been three weeks.
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The only and the only reason it's been three weeks because I had to get back on,
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like, I had to get back on coordination schedule with my other podcast. You were off cycle elsewhere, so you had to move things around? Yeah. A little bit. And then I I the things we are thinking about right now are like,
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definitely benefited from an extra week of of
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thinking it through. There were things to ponder.
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Yes. Because it's
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because these things aren't pop culture now,
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there's more to think about because there's more k fabe.
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Oh, no. That was the alarm I set originally for me to get up to do the podcast, and I was off by an hour.
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So Nice. There you go. Like, we're in k we're dealing with k fabe math
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right now. K fabe math?
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Okay.
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I love it. It is k fabe math. I I see exactly what you're saying. You see what I'm well, the first I mean so, you know, look. If you're picking this up and you're it's the year 2031,
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you're not gonna remember,
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like, why we're pre ambling this the way we are. Yeah. But if you are picking this up in real time,
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I e,
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you know, today is September 13,
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Shana Tova. It is, Rosh Hashanah, and I have to say I saw the big I saw the big Bitcoin yarmulkes, and I gotta say in control.
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And big dreidels. Dreidels and I haven't seen the dreidels, but I did see the yarmulkes on Well, you're right. I didn't see a physical one. I saw a photo of one, a concept art that they're working on in the lab. I'm not a In the compliance. I also I'm not a fan of generating entropy through dreidels.
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It's too many too many spins.
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It's too many spins. They take too long.
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It's harder to find out if they're not weighted too because it's more of a point. It's very hard to find out. So, like, if you're playing dreidel for,
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you know, for fake gold chocolate,
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that's all fine.
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Yeah. All well But those are the prop those are the proper stakes
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of,
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doing that. Yes. Proper stakes. Do not generate your seed
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using a dreidel.
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Yeah. That
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is the, the Jewish member of Red Team.
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You heard the token? Giving you his giving Red Sea I'm Red Teaming the Entropy. I'm just appointing We we need to just call you the Red Team Rabbog. Have
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you ever heard what I I
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had this thing where I was when I first, I don't know, was getting into rabbit holes. I Yeah. I decided for myself that the word rabbi was actually an abbreviation for rabbit hole.
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Really? Oh, interesting.
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Yeah. Entomology.
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Yeah.
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Because, like, I like the the Torah is the ultimate rabbit hole. Like, those guys never come out of it. Of course. They're just they're there permanently.
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Yeah. And, like, the object of life is to basically go through every other rabbit hole before going to that one.
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Yes. Right? We we talked about Pascal on our first, like Yes. Second episode.
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Yeah. Yes. We have a speaking of, as a quick quick shout out, there is a member,
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Red Team and core developer,
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Lorinc
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Yeah. Who I was catching up with in person, and he heard that we had a math podcast and started listening to it. And he's going he's a true believer. He's going in order.
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Oh my god. Wow. So, like, he I saw him last, last week, and he started asking me questions about our conversation about Pascal's wager and had a lot of opinions about it. And I was like, buddy, that was three, four months ago. It's it's a I
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you're right. I don't know I don't know why we're wrong, but you're right. Come on the podcast, and you can yell at us.
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Oh, totally. Yeah. That's what I told him. That's what I told him. I don't mean I'm the only person in my podcasting relationships
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that does what I'm about to say I do, but I really listen.
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I don't my forty hours a week is constantly like relistening to my own podcasts. That's bad entropy.
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Well, you're right. But
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I'd say it's not it's not an entire closed system, but,
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you know, it's what I'm interested in.
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It's
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is it bad entropy? I don't know. I mean, it may be bad entropy, but it's good it's good.
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Well, the thing is you have a high entropy. You have high entropy of the podcast that you create.
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Right? Yes. Like, have many kinds of themes of podcasts. So that is
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that is good.
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It's bad entropy around my confirmation bias, but it's good entropy around general
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just general,
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you know?
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I don't know. I think it's a good place to be in, and maybe it's like you have like, I have to break through that. Once I break through that,
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I'm really ready. I then I can really trust the entropy I'm getting for myself in the world.
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You know? It's and it's it's like getting through all these other rabbit holes before you get to the the granddaddy, the one you won't escape, which is
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maybe we'll debate this later. But but I was all to say is, like, I I remember the Pascal conversation like it was yesterday.
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You know, like, I talk about these conversations a lot with my daughter. I'm like, oh, you know, we had this conversation. It's math you know, about Pascal.
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And Yeah. You know, math, religion
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are those are pretty big topics in my household. So, like,
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they're you know, it's it's
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always this stuff is always getting covered.
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It's
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I think it's part of rich discourse to have this all part of it. And I think it's better entropy than dreidels.
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Well, that's true.
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Which by the way, I should just specify.
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Dreidels are are a Hanukkah toy.
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Mhmm.
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They come up you know, they're I don't know that it's like a globally Jewish toy.
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Well, just for Hanukkah. Or are saying it's, like, American? I I thought it was like It's kinda like
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it's like
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mistletoe.
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Right? You'd like, mistletoe is not used universally for the most part. Right? It's only used around Christmas time.
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Yeah. You can. You can enjoy mistletoe anywhere and anytime you want.
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Mhmm.
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But its
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relevance and significance and use
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is only around this one time of the year. Yeah. Got it. That makes sense.
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Yeah. I would say,
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speaking of waiting
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Mhmm.
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I did an informal experiment on the Anchor Watch challenge coin you gave me. Okay. At my meetup.
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Feels weighted. Oh,
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feels weighted. We were spinning it like a dreidel.
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That so and
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that's when we figured out that we think that that the Bitcoin side is a little a little heavily weighted based on our You got my hustle. You know how much money I've made doing coin flips on that? Like, that's funny. What's the Anton Chagor from No Country for Old Men call it? We
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did like 20
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spins in about two hours.
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Yeah. This is when I started imagining how much of a bitch it would be to spin a dreidel. And do the chi square test for randomness.
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Yeah.
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Oh, man. But I think flipping it, throwing it up and flipping it.
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This is a PSA if you're using the Angouwise Challenge Coin.
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Yeah. Your Entropy.
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Throw it up and flip it. What it is, it's a great card protector if you're playing poker.
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Just a big
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obviously not a chip. Cool and shiny.
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It's pretty cool. Before
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we move on, I was talking,
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I was at the open source Bitcoin summit and at Presidio Bitcoin this week. First off, Presidio Bitcoin is beautiful. I've never been there. I've only had spent before this week, three, four days in San Francisco in total my entire life. The Presidio
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did not realize this. It's on the northern it's like basically on the South Side of the Golden Gate Bridge.
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It is this park
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on the northern tip of that part of the land mass.
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It's a federal it's federal land because it used to be the western command center for all of World War two,
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and it's beautiful and clean. It is the it like and I walked around. Was like, oh, this is what all of San Francisco should be. Just like a complete, like, former military based techno fascist lockdown because it was nice and clean and enjoyable to walk around. And,
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there
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I was on a panel with a security
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engineer, block Jordan,
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and he he made it, I was talking about we were talking about entropy and randomness. I said, well, who's ever actually run, like, a chi squared test on their,
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on their entropy? And he said, well, I haven't personally, but in the BitKey firmware
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is a Pearson chi square test. And I just pulled it up and there is in the firmware. They actually do full generation,
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and a histogram to show how the entropy is being created within the BitKey. I I I'm looking at it right now.
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So it's in the GitHub?
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It's in their GitHub. It's public. There's a like, the the there's a chi squared test, a unit test that runs within the firmware. It's
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probably I mean, it really is probably
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it's it's a minimum, I think, minimum standard
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if you're gonna You're doing randomness, bud. And LibC like like, LibSecP also has, like like, distribution tests and stuff that it it has in it too, but, like, no one's doing a check on the check
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except for block it looks like.
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Yeah. Again,
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I think we talked about this last time, but like if you're even going to use a machine's
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random number generator,
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that
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machine should give you a mountain of
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ways to validate it. It's very like, how are you gonna do it? Buy, like, a thousand of these machines?
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Buy a thousand Dickies and test the random randomness of all of them? Or,
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you know, like, how
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how is an individual supposed to do that validation?
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And so like this conversation,
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much as I
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hate to validate
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guys like JW,
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but
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the more I have this conversation on like, how do I have to validate the randomness of a wallet generated
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seed phrase? Right.
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It's just defaults me to like, just go have Bitcoin core do it.
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Yes. I I think that's like the
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I use Bitcoin Core wallet all the time. Like, I am a big fan, and it is objectively true that the one with the most peer review is Bitcoin Core. It doesn't mean Bitcoin Core is perfect,
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but the idea of
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the
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looking at the code base has the most eyes and to be like, there's multiple layers of where the testing the pieces go in. Because it's interesting, like how the repositories work.
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SecP is not part of the Bitcoin org.
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It's a Bitcoin core org that then loads in the libsecP library. Right?
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The
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the the whole conversation around that is just around usability.
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It's it's user experience,
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and,
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I would even go far enough to say that you should have in theory, you should have
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Bitcoin Core entry as part of it. But even that, I like, from a risk distribution standpoint, you're still putting all your eggs in one basket.
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Yeah. I the way I the way I think about it is I I mean, I'm starting to think that a person should just have their brains understand
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how Bitcoin corn makes keys.
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So, like, at the very I don't think most people have done that work,
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John. Yeah. And and and, like, and and if you didn't go to if you didn't go to the basement and, like, go look at all and check it, then you're still
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trusting, not verifying.
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Yeah. That's right. Because I just the the you're never gonna kill you're never gonna have case closed that, like, you're really good with
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everything you set up
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for, you know, for your There's always there will always be trailing risks, and your job is to mitigate those trailing risks as much as possible.
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Yes. And so I while I think the I think the best ADIQ solution is rolling your own dice, I really do. I don't think that using Bitcoin Core is the best ADIQ
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solution. I think that is a
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I think that is actually a smarter
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it's a smarter solution. Yeah.
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The it is.
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Like, I think properly air gapping
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Bitcoin Core. Right? Like, I wouldn't load
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I wouldn't use Bitcoin Core on my computer right now and generate keys and have that be what I use to secure my life savings. Right? Like, I also wouldn't be buying reused hardware.
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Right? And the there's one thing I think Bitcoin Core
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at least should have the option of,
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and it should just let you add your own Entropy
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as an additional input to be XORed in on top of everything else. Right?
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Like, it just should,
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you should just be able to, in addition to everything else, add a little bit more because the way we talked about this on the Entropy episode two podcasts or last podcast, like, to XOR in
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Entropy
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at worst retains the same level of Entropy you currently already had.
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So it is a it is something that does not have downsides
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if implemented correctly, right, to add additional Entropy. So It doesn't reduce
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entry.
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Yeah.
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Right? Yes.
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I I so look. The the case should never be closed. I don't think you could ever say, oh, I'm really, really good with this. But I do think that if you
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roll your own dice
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and you understand at least
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the log six divided by the log two and you understand why
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rolling at least a 100 times and maybe, you know Mhmm. If you're if you're worried about your
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dice being loaded,
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roll, you know, roll them a 120 times or Mhmm. You know, whatever makes you feel comfortable there.
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You at least know in your like, if you're,
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ten hours away from your seed and you find out that it's totally
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that every seed that was made the way your seed was made is being compromised.
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Right?
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Or at least
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being stored on devices
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that
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your seed is being stored on, you can at least go back and
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it's it's like coded into your soul, I feel like. This is how I felt when I was at Lake Satoshi trying to evaluate whether or not Right. I was screwed or not. I was it was like like, the thing that I did to make the seed was encoded into my soul in a certain way. Like, I could in turn that's what and it gets internalizing something means. Right? Yes. I don't think you get that
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trusting Bitcoin Core,
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even though you may get the same quality,
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you may get the very same quality. You don't get that internalization.
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And I just think the internalization is important to sleeping at night.
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It's like that's
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maybe it's important to getting to the next stage of validating.
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Like, don't move ahead in the video game of validating
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unless you internalize these things. Right.
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I think that's fair. Yeah. That's the you know? So all that that's
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aside stuff, but
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Mhmm. You know, I think it's good. So why not do both? I guess that's that's really where I so where I end up is why not do both? And then like
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if a comp when you find out that a company like Block is
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doing all the putting all this energy, we'll just say, into
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the
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version of this that you're probably you may not even do.
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Right?
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Well,
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it's probably useful to go to the GitHub and take a look. Like, it's probably useful. One. It's nice. Yeah. Nice.
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Ask the question of Rob. Like, why would you ever spend? What like, what's the point of a I think it's really valuable to say what's the point of a chi square test? And I don't know that we were gonna do that here, but, like, you know, what's the point of rolling a die a thousand times? What's the point of all that? And it's all again, it's like we don't have anybody at the Bitcoin store to go to
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to ask if we're good.
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Right? Like to say, hey, are we good against you know, in the insurance game, right? There's
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this concept of like named risks.
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And then there's this concept of all
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risk, all of which And must be
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in the case of protecting your seed, you're in the game of all risks,
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whether or not they even exist today or not.
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Right? There's risks you're gonna find yourself
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existing in five years, then you're not gonna find out until it happened.
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Right? And so that's the bar. The bar here is the bear, not, you know, the, you know, the saying, you don't have to outrun the bear. You just have to outrun the other guy. Yep.
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The bar here is the bear.
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Right. Right? Really. When you said when you determine your seed, the bar is the bear.
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And
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whether or not that happens in a year or five years
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is based on the other guy. Okay.
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So like we Well, this is I think part of this too is good. Just goes to the fact that like, it's the same thing like security. And I've been using this metaphor that like all of the red team in the security stuff is not like Norton antivirus scan where you like hit the button and it says you're clean. You're like, oh, I guess I'm done. Like, I'll check back in a month. Like
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risk and security in the same spectrum of like, you can never there's a there's a bad asymmetry
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in cybersecurity
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where with AI,
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the attackers
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are able to move faster
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because
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attacks are verifiably
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executable.
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Whereas defense, you can't, like, have a verification function that my code has no bugs.
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And so you just have this, like, to your point, like, you'll you can find out shit's fucked,
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but you're never gonna be able to, like, provably say, like, oh, no. I'm good. Right? You'll just have asymptotically lower and lower and lower amounts of risk.
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But
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in a case of entropy, I think you probably can.
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I think in a case of entropy,
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you can,
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what you were what you were able to do is I would say with a physical form,
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physically that I did a random physical thing and that encodes to a some set of entropy. To go to, like, the Bitcoin Core example,
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like, if I were doing Bitcoin Core, like, as my my my policy strategy,
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I would have more than one cold computer. This is kinda what I'm getting at. Like, I would I would walk into a Best Buy with cash, and I would buy a random computer. And then I would buy
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like, I would use my Mac for one of them. Like, would turn it offline and, like, reboot it and, like, like, offline entirely. And then I would do another one that would, like and I would do multiple computers because the the way the Entropy works for
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Bitcoin Core is it pulls it in from, like, four different sources and one of them being, like, the operating system entropy.
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Bitcoin generates its own entropy. Like, there's actually a really great tweet,
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which I I reference. And
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if you know Raw Avocado
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Yep. Hell yeah. Yeah. Alex Walls. He get him on the show. Oh, he would love he would just do that for, like, hours.
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Right. He would he would he would just be going off for hours, but he has a really nice, like, page where he just talks about
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the like, he wrote it down on a piece of paper and, like,
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and color coded. I'm pulling it up now. Core Entropy.
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He does a really good I Did we talk about this last episode? I think we did. Yeah. I'll
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just call it right here. So he called
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There's the proc random that gets stuff
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from the script. And then there's
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four sections. One of them or is it five? One, two, three, four,
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four. There's four colors that he has here. So one of them are like system processes,
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low level entropy processor instructions from the CPU. One low level, like, entropy from the operating system, dynamic events and static events from your computer session. Right? And like this, I've been looking to this. This came all in version 13 of Bitcoin 0.13
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2016,
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which was when we've entirely regutted the the structure of the wallet to do what are called bit 32 hierarchical deterministic quality with an x prim and x pub. Before then it was a JBOD wallet, which is just a bunch of keys.
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And it had different ways of doing it before then. But like,
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if you have Bitcoin from
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version 13, I think you're
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in a very good risk minimized spot for sure.
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Yeah. And so I guess what we're saying is,
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at least what I'm saying is that
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if there's probably a trustworthy
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version of a random number generator, it's probably Bitcoin Core because
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of the evidence,
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the eyes, the evidence
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and the resilience it's shown.
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Except I would just say that stops short of, I think a bar
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that is needed for this type of validation, is
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internalizing
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it. And I don't know. So like I just don't,
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it's not that
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you don't trust because it's not trustworthy because it is trustworthy. And sometimes we will, There are times when we have to default into something that is trustworthy probably.
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But this for your entropy,
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it's not necessary because you can do it yourself. That's my point. And so when you don't when you can do it yourself,
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but with rolling dice,
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which I still say that's the ADIQ solution.
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I agree. Literally,
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any anybody can roll dice and convert you know, then you just convert that into
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your
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seed. Okay. That's the key. That's the thing you have to learn how to do. Okay. People there but, you know, if you're gonna trust something, trust we'll say there's program
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that have been validated.
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Mhmm. And come to come to the bit devs I'm starting. We're gonna talk about this. And we're Oh, yeah. So if you can understand
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okay. Duh. Anyone can roll their own dice. Right? Now can you do the one small step is of converting that into your key? Then you're good. And then it's internalized. You don't have to trust Bitcoin Core, which I think anyone really ever wants to have to do.
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You
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shouldn't have to trust one thing. You can. Okay, if you it's like a 20 IQ solution, I guess.
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But, like, it's more of like
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it's the way I think of the Bitcoin core solution is you have to be you have do a lot more work to validate it. You have to do your chi square tests. You have to do all of you you know, you now have to do all these tests
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to make sure it's truly random.
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Whereas if you just roll your own dice, you know, and so You know, actually sick. A really cool open source
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software that should be built is basically a wrapper on top of Bitcoin Core. So it doesn't modify any Bitcoin Core, but you run on top of it and you can start running chi squareds on the entropy poles that Bitcoin Core does.
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Yeah. It'd be pretty Like, that would be sick. Like, that would be sick.
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You you you could you could go to the bath store and explicitly prove to yourself that, like, the box that you're about to generate keys on has random distribution.
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Discussion.
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So
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Yeah. Yeah. There's there's two things going on in pop culture, and I think they're both k fabe.
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Okay. But and and they're both rage bait. Like, they both rage baited me into waking up this morning and wanting to, you know, really been been thinking about this for a couple of weeks.
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Yeah.
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Alright. So let's hit the first one, which is this
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if we were like a professional podcast, we would we would subject you to this clip.
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That's right. In its entirety, but it's the the Tucker Carlson and some fucking dick nose.
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I
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don't even know who it is. I don't know who they are, but it's like it's like they were they exist strictly to rage bait me
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and us.
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And this conversation
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this is the conversation that Tucker Carlson was having with some guy about
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why are there letters in algebra?
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And
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basically his answer, his actual answer is because it's just to fuck with you. It's totally not needed. I don't know a single person who even uses algebra. I don't know. I created
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he went on to say that in college
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he was able to,
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because he was able to
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drink with his advisor,
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he was able to bypass
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get having to take any math classes. Oh, he said he took something called finite math, which I think is interesting.
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Sure.
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So okay. Good. So he was able to take like discrete math essentially
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and only deal with whole numbers.
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And
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I don't know what he you know, he was an art student. So I guess that makes sense as to why
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Yeah. They let him take those classes and all that. And we know that college math system is all fucked anyway, but, like, this this so
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Tucker sat there and said, oh, yeah. Everything he basically is like, yeah. I have no pushback for anything
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you're saying here. I mean, the you know, this is a guy that didn't let Sam Altman get away with even trying to, like, slough off
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a whistleblower that was murdered.
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Mhmm. And Tucker Carlson, I'll say, you know, he clearly has the ability to push back when he wants to. Sure.
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He did not do that here.
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I don't And think he was ill equipped to even have the conversation. He didn't wanna look silly. I think, you know, I think this is one of those things where you ever get gaslit so hard that you're like, you're like paralyzed in the moment. You actually don't even know what to do. It's so fun. For me, I just enjoyed listening. I'm like, keep go off king. Like, I wanna hear more of this craziness. Like, this is great. Like, like, when someone goes off in a schizo land, I just become like, I'm locked in. Let's do it. Yeah.
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Math is fake. Let's let's talk about it. As a podcaster, I've never had this situation where I've like somebody saying something so like
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fucked up that I just sat sit and enjoy it. That's never happened. Although,
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I hope to be on that level one day where I'm just So I can't even relate. I don't even know if I can relate to Duggar Carlson and to say, oh, he was wrong or anything. I think that this thing was so
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I
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feel like he just sat there so gaslit and didn't know what even to make of it to respond.
361
00:27:06.120 --> 00:27:14.679
Mhmm. Other than to say, I live in a fake world, so I don't know any of what I can't even begin to opine on what you're saying. Right.
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But back to since this is verbal.
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Right? So back to the point of this idea
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of,
365
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math.
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Why are there letters?
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And by the way, I hate the fact that he used the word letters. So, like, my autistic brain is like, no. They're symbols. Symbols. They're not letters. Letters are no different You're not pronouncing them. You're not pronouncing them.
368
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Yeah. They're
369
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not
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yeah. They're symbols.
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00:27:42.710 --> 00:27:47.075
So just for the record, right? Why do we use symbols in algebra?
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Okay. So there's
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different letters for different symbols. So,
374
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okay, we have what is known as X, Y, and Z, right? You'll see X, Y, and Z. Those are called indeterminate.
375
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This is all Descartes.
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Descartes determined this construct
377
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and this is the way. Fake by the way.
378
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Fake. Yeah,
379
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Descartes fake.
380
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Descartes. He's letters.
381
00:28:12.805 --> 00:28:13.765
It's all fake.
382
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Is
383
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definitely.
384
00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:26.260
So XYZ
385
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would be the letters to determine what you call indeterminants.
386
00:28:33.620 --> 00:28:35.220
I mean they could be anything,
387
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right? This is the essence of algebra, right? Essence of algebra is that they could be they could be anything
388
00:28:42.945 --> 00:28:45.184
and but then we have these other letters,
389
00:28:45.345 --> 00:28:55.184
a b c, that you might see. Mhmm. If you wonder, okay. Well, what's the difference between a b c and x y z? Why are they used differently? And a b c are meant to be
390
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what's called scalars or constants. Mhmm. So, like, we're not we're still not gonna define what number it is. We're just gonna tell you that it's not gonna change. It's not meant to vary.
391
00:29:06.780 --> 00:29:09.100
Mhmm. Okay? It's predetermined,
392
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not meant to vary.
393
00:29:10.565 --> 00:29:12.565
So when we see a line
394
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like ax
395
00:29:14.485 --> 00:29:20.245
plus b y equals c, that is Mhmm. That is the equation that determines a line.
396
00:29:21.765 --> 00:29:23.684
Or, hey. How about an elliptic curve?
397
00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:26.169
Y squared equals
398
00:29:26.570 --> 00:29:29.450
ax cubed plus b x squared
399
00:29:30.169 --> 00:29:31.529
plus c x
400
00:29:31.850 --> 00:29:32.970
plus d.
401
00:29:33.610 --> 00:29:37.355
Okay. Right? The a b c's and d's are constants.
402
00:29:37.355 --> 00:29:40.474
And so with Bitcoin's elliptic curve, right,
403
00:29:41.514 --> 00:29:43.274
is y squared equals
404
00:29:44.554 --> 00:29:46.874
x cubed plus seven.
405
00:29:47.115 --> 00:29:49.755
Mhmm. So a equals one,
406
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:51.600
never changes.
407
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.160
Yep. And b equals
408
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:54.799
zero,
409
00:29:56.560 --> 00:29:58.400
c equals zero,
410
00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:01.520
and d equals seven.
411
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.120
Mhmm.
412
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:04.960
This
413
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is the
414
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top level, not the wire stress level, which already
415
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was already,
416
00:30:12.745 --> 00:30:15.225
you know, made constants out of some of those
417
00:30:15.785 --> 00:30:17.784
or zeroed out some of those constants.
418
00:30:17.865 --> 00:30:22.590
Yeah. This this is just so the a, b, c's, d's are predetermined.
419
00:30:22.910 --> 00:30:23.630
K?
420
00:30:23.870 --> 00:30:25.549
Yes. But the x cubed,
421
00:30:27.230 --> 00:30:28.029
that's
422
00:30:28.270 --> 00:30:31.150
we're saying that's where the two
423
00:30:31.875 --> 00:30:33.235
Oh,
424
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no.
425
00:30:37.955 --> 00:30:44.515
They're they're coming after him. He found the truth. He found the truth about math being fake, and now they're coming after him.
426
00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:47.970
Do what you gotta do.
427
00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:49.730
Do what you gotta do.
428
00:30:54.690 --> 00:30:55.730
Hey.
429
00:30:58.625 --> 00:31:03.505
Alright. We're back. Part two. This is the most technically challenging probably episode we'll
430
00:31:03.585 --> 00:31:08.145
have had to do. And you know what? It's fine because the world does not want us discussing
431
00:31:08.625 --> 00:31:09.825
these two topics.
432
00:31:10.225 --> 00:31:15.610
So whatever. This Tucker interview, I don't know. I hope we captured it from the last from the last call. Yeah.
433
00:31:16.810 --> 00:31:20.650
Maybe let me jump off because you were going like, my thoughts on this is that Yes.
434
00:31:20.970 --> 00:31:21.610
The
435
00:31:23.690 --> 00:31:32.554
there is a nugget there. And the nugget is most people throughout life don't handle any level of abstraction in their thinking so they never have to think about symbols
436
00:31:32.795 --> 00:31:37.115
and they offload all symbol mathematical higher order thinking
437
00:31:37.355 --> 00:31:38.315
into
438
00:31:38.715 --> 00:31:39.355
technology
439
00:31:40.670 --> 00:31:42.590
Because like for sure
440
00:31:43.950 --> 00:31:45.070
when you're
441
00:31:45.310 --> 00:31:50.030
you know like engineers that are designing cars are thinking about physics and thermodynamics
442
00:31:50.030 --> 00:31:53.565
which require multiple points of abstractions in multidimensional
443
00:31:53.565 --> 00:31:59.565
space, and they're using these equations. But, like, you personally driving the car are not thinking about that. Right?
444
00:32:01.085 --> 00:32:17.059
I think it's also fair to say that, like, the median American going through their life isn't thinking about multiple levels of abstractions when it thinks like, when you think about the complexities of the financial system. Right? Or in, like like I said, driving to work. Right? And so
445
00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:29.804
it's like pop it's like mathematical populism, the idea that, like, this is all fake and gay, but they're all gonna use technology that's used by people. And, like, all these people are using AI now, and you wanna see how many fucking symbols are in linear algebra?
446
00:32:30.525 --> 00:32:35.805
You know you know what I'm telling me? Like, you're gonna tell me that, like, like, the this stuff is Use a calculator.
447
00:32:36.450 --> 00:32:37.330
I mean, can't
448
00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:38.849
yeah. Again,
449
00:32:39.809 --> 00:32:41.090
I don't wanna overblow
450
00:32:41.169 --> 00:32:42.609
this. I wanna just
451
00:32:42.929 --> 00:32:47.169
use this as a way to maybe get our thoughts out here. But
452
00:32:51.205 --> 00:32:58.085
you know, the there's an important there's one there's an important thing in what you said, which is when you say people don't think in terms of abstraction.
453
00:32:58.085 --> 00:33:03.125
Right? What that means is if you're if you're stuck in the matrix, you're not getting
454
00:33:03.540 --> 00:33:09.620
If you can't abstract your the only because the only way out of the matrix is to abstract your way Totally.
455
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:11.780
And,
456
00:33:12.100 --> 00:33:13.380
you know, it's like
457
00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:15.620
even if you're a
458
00:33:16.580 --> 00:33:18.020
a Bitcoin user
459
00:33:18.865 --> 00:33:20.304
and you really
460
00:33:20.465 --> 00:33:22.225
got yourself to understand
461
00:33:22.625 --> 00:33:27.024
the elliptic curve x cubed plus set y squared equals x cubed plus seven,
462
00:33:28.785 --> 00:33:30.304
you're fine if that never changes.
463
00:33:31.649 --> 00:33:34.129
But if that ever is going to change,
464
00:33:34.610 --> 00:33:37.969
what is what good is the work you did in understanding
465
00:33:37.970 --> 00:33:38.929
the curve?
466
00:33:39.330 --> 00:33:43.250
What good is it if it's going to change and you have you can't see it
467
00:33:45.215 --> 00:33:47.854
at any level of abstraction other than what it is.
468
00:33:48.735 --> 00:33:49.534
When
469
00:33:51.775 --> 00:33:54.975
we start having a conversation of say using a different curve,
470
00:33:55.630 --> 00:33:57.230
right? And people
471
00:33:57.230 --> 00:33:58.830
start making claims
472
00:33:59.309 --> 00:34:00.029
about
473
00:34:00.510 --> 00:34:02.030
what's equivalent
474
00:34:02.030 --> 00:34:03.309
and what's not.
475
00:34:03.630 --> 00:34:10.845
What good is that work that you did gonna be if it was not at an abstract level outside of
476
00:34:11.245 --> 00:34:12.125
this curve?
477
00:34:13.245 --> 00:34:16.525
It wasn't something more general than this thing?
478
00:34:16.685 --> 00:34:17.485
It's like,
479
00:34:18.925 --> 00:34:23.980
know, maybe you have a program, maybe you coded something when you were a kid to say
480
00:34:24.700 --> 00:34:28.300
this, I've coded something to work for me. I'm three feet tall.
481
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:37.340
And this is gonna do everything I need to do for myself in my life. Then all of a sudden you grow six inches and the thing you coded doesn't work anymore.
482
00:34:43.795 --> 00:34:44.835
You know, like,
483
00:34:45.955 --> 00:34:52.835
this is all kind of unnecessary, right? But it's just like you don't want to get caught up in and say I don't need to know.
484
00:34:55.690 --> 00:35:04.010
Don't need to generalize things because I'm happy where I am. I'm happy with the system I live in. To your point about like, you have to abstract to get out the matrix.
485
00:35:04.490 --> 00:35:08.330
As the world changes around you, if you shut off the entire world of mathematical thinking,
486
00:35:09.225 --> 00:35:15.705
then you are necessarily locked in rails and unable to reason new models to be able to change
487
00:35:15.865 --> 00:35:20.665
your perspective based on the situation. You're just shutting off an entire line of just like you're
488
00:35:21.385 --> 00:35:22.425
not you're
489
00:35:22.425 --> 00:35:28.570
basically turning off the toolkit. Like, you're you're you're throwing out the toolkit, and you're like, I'm just gonna, like, remodel my house with my bare hands.
490
00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:31.050
And what's wrong with that?
491
00:35:31.610 --> 00:35:41.465
You're allowed to. What's up? I mean You're allowed to, but I guess the thing that I think was so galling about this discussion was that it was sort of, like, presented as some type of intellectual achievement.
492
00:35:41.944 --> 00:35:42.665
Yep.
493
00:35:42.984 --> 00:35:44.985
Right? It's like this
494
00:35:45.545 --> 00:35:49.464
is like the you know, this was presented as some type of vanguard of thinking
495
00:35:50.349 --> 00:35:50.910
that,
496
00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:55.790
hey, man. Have you ever noticed that we don't need any of that shit? You know? Right.
497
00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:59.550
You really think about it? I think about it deeply.
498
00:36:00.109 --> 00:36:00.510
Right.
499
00:36:02.675 --> 00:36:04.755
And
500
00:36:04.755 --> 00:36:05.555
it's,
501
00:36:06.675 --> 00:36:10.835
you know, I don't know. I think there's a lot of people maybe
502
00:36:11.155 --> 00:36:13.235
that confuse this for
503
00:36:13.395 --> 00:36:14.355
good thinking,
504
00:36:14.835 --> 00:36:15.795
radical thinking.
505
00:36:18.040 --> 00:36:23.880
And they're gonna get this is a way to one shot people off of basically off of the
506
00:36:25.160 --> 00:36:26.120
escalator.
507
00:36:26.520 --> 00:36:27.880
Totally. Matrix. Right?
508
00:36:29.255 --> 00:36:30.135
Totally.
509
00:36:30.215 --> 00:36:36.295
Maybe that's why I'm so upset about it. It's not about the math thing. It's just it's just about like, god, you know,
510
00:36:36.855 --> 00:36:39.575
bad thinking. Bad thinking calls me really badly.
511
00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:44.100
Oh, man.
512
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:51.220
Yeah. I mean, that was I I it's funny because the time between we saw that and this podcast has been a couple of days, but
513
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:58.675
I also feel like it's like, it it was just K fame to get engagement on the podcast. It's like that tweet that that that 97
514
00:36:58.675 --> 00:37:00.035
clip went around everywhere.
515
00:37:00.675 --> 00:37:05.475
It's just not serious though. You get on a plane, you get on you you drive a car, you use a computer,
516
00:37:05.955 --> 00:37:13.330
you like, you're using all of these, like, things. And just because someone packages it up to you in a really clean abstract way doesn't mean that doesn't exist.
517
00:37:15.490 --> 00:37:16.130
Yeah,
518
00:37:16.690 --> 00:37:18.850
totally successful kfabe,
519
00:37:18.850 --> 00:37:19.890
we'll just say.
520
00:37:21.330 --> 00:37:21.730
That's right.
521
00:37:22.434 --> 00:37:26.435
You know, I think us calling, you know, just calling attention to it. So
522
00:37:28.434 --> 00:37:32.035
I'm not even sure if we're even gonna air any of this because some the
523
00:37:32.434 --> 00:37:42.700
first twenty minutes, I don't know. It's we're gonna figure it out. We'll figure it out. By the time I my clanker who puts this episode together, everyone will have forgotten about all this. But regardless,
524
00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:46.860
let's talk about the other one. I think that that's
525
00:37:47.020 --> 00:37:48.780
that's the one I really wanted to hit because
526
00:37:49.825 --> 00:37:50.865
this is now
527
00:37:51.905 --> 00:37:53.825
it's wild. It's
528
00:37:53.825 --> 00:37:57.905
wild that dinner party conversation is now like basically,
529
00:37:57.905 --> 00:37:58.465
mathematics
530
00:37:59.025 --> 00:38:01.105
is now part of dinner party conversation.
531
00:38:03.180 --> 00:38:08.220
Did you know that artificial intelligence is now, you know, solved
532
00:38:09.339 --> 00:38:11.580
a major unsolvable,
533
00:38:11.660 --> 00:38:13.580
previously unsolvable problem?
534
00:38:14.540 --> 00:38:18.460
And this thing goes deep, like the k fave here. This was like
535
00:38:19.255 --> 00:38:20.455
really successful
536
00:38:20.695 --> 00:38:21.495
because
537
00:38:21.575 --> 00:38:22.855
it enraged
538
00:38:22.855 --> 00:38:23.815
mathematic.
539
00:38:23.815 --> 00:38:37.000
It can raise the entire mathematics community. Navier Stokes. You know, Navier Stokes. No. Do you? No. You know, but, everyone's talking about it. Yeah. Oh, we solved Navier Stokes. This is, you know, the crowning achievement in AI.
540
00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:39.880
The entire math community is completely
541
00:38:42.520 --> 00:38:44.520
just distraught distraught
542
00:38:44.520 --> 00:38:46.865
over this, But it's really because,
543
00:38:47.984 --> 00:39:05.750
you know, I'll just say fairly and unfairly. Fairly, there have been a lot of people that have done work on this that AI would not have been able to do what it did had it not been, you know, had it not been for the sole the shoulders Right. It stood atop of. K? Right. And they're upset that now they don't know who to give the prize money to,
544
00:39:06.150 --> 00:39:18.215
and they don't know who's gonna do who's gonna do any work in math anymore if AI is just gonna suck up the prize money. So this is why I have a particular interest in discussing this because I think it's become an incentive issue now.
545
00:39:18.695 --> 00:39:19.255
And
546
00:39:19.575 --> 00:39:20.375
the state
547
00:39:20.855 --> 00:39:24.214
of mathematics is now maybe moving towards
548
00:39:26.220 --> 00:39:28.060
or maybe accelerating
549
00:39:28.060 --> 00:39:29.900
the incentive
550
00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:34.220
game theory here. Okay? Which I think is maybe a good thing. Right?
551
00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:35.100
But
552
00:39:36.060 --> 00:39:39.340
but this other thing I wanted to talk about, which is
553
00:39:41.265 --> 00:39:43.665
I don't get I don't like
554
00:39:44.705 --> 00:39:46.705
I don't like where the conversation
555
00:39:47.265 --> 00:39:53.100
the dinner party conversation and the the Overton window is on on this. Meaning,
556
00:39:56.220 --> 00:39:56.780
I
557
00:39:57.500 --> 00:39:59.100
struggle to see why
558
00:39:59.740 --> 00:40:01.420
it's actually relevant
559
00:40:02.380 --> 00:40:03.980
that AI solves a math problem.
560
00:40:06.935 --> 00:40:13.175
And that I think I'm skipping a lot of steps in what I you know, I think I'm skipping steps in my explanation.
561
00:40:13.175 --> 00:40:17.255
I just if I go right to the if I go to the end, I'm asking myself,
562
00:40:17.415 --> 00:40:18.615
so the fuck what?
563
00:40:19.250 --> 00:40:20.930
So what? What changes?
564
00:40:21.010 --> 00:40:26.930
What impact does this actually have on the world? And if I if it does have an impact on the world, it's really bad.
565
00:40:27.329 --> 00:40:29.010
It's bad, which is
566
00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:31.810
no more work gets done on this.
567
00:40:32.904 --> 00:40:37.705
That's the impact. If like if there's any impact, it's like, okay, I guess nobody's curious
568
00:40:38.105 --> 00:40:39.705
to solve this anymore.
569
00:40:40.904 --> 00:40:42.505
So let me
570
00:40:43.865 --> 00:40:46.664
pause before I go because I have another rant loaded on this.
571
00:40:47.870 --> 00:40:49.310
Let me pause for you.
572
00:40:49.710 --> 00:40:50.430
Yeah,
573
00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:51.390
so
574
00:40:52.430 --> 00:40:56.270
it's interesting because I think to your point which is true that
575
00:40:56.430 --> 00:40:57.630
the
576
00:40:57.630 --> 00:41:18.760
AI to be able to move through this was definitely done with the contribution of man, right? With all of AI technology is basically synthesizing the collective works, The computer in of itself doesn't have the ability to do this. It takes all of our unstructured data of our words and papers and all these things and assembles it together. And the method in which they're starting to basically solve these
577
00:41:19.080 --> 00:41:24.280
is the equivalent to like a full brute force. Like this is a loose analogy,
578
00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:26.760
but when
579
00:41:27.240 --> 00:41:28.119
if
580
00:41:28.734 --> 00:41:37.455
quantum computers become real, you basically mass brute force bending the rules of how you would think about constructing these problems and attack it. Right? So they're having these
581
00:41:37.695 --> 00:41:48.250
agent swarms which are like 10,000 agents that are just kind of dispersed, and they're looking at all these things at once, which would be the equivalent of, like, hiring even if it's 10,000 agents, let's just say, like,
582
00:41:49.050 --> 00:41:51.210
50 of these is one mathematician
583
00:41:51.290 --> 00:41:56.330
that would be, like, spending their day. But they're since they're computers, they don't sleep. They're just cycling. Right? So you're taking the equivalent of, like,
584
00:41:58.025 --> 00:42:11.305
dozens, if not hundreds of mathematical PhD equivalents that are just attacking this one problem and systematically with perfect information hand off talking to each other and getting this done. And they get to an answer. Right? And it's done via brute force. They're not PhD students.
585
00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:16.260
Sorry. They're not PhD. They're more like Okay. Right? But
586
00:42:16.660 --> 00:42:19.700
that's like the What grad students? Like what do wanna say? Like grad students?
587
00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:21.700
They're more like, we'll just say
588
00:42:24.995 --> 00:42:27.475
very we'll call them really strong
589
00:42:27.635 --> 00:42:28.675
graduate students.
590
00:42:28.915 --> 00:42:33.235
But they haven't done the one thing that would differentiate them, which is do something new.
591
00:42:34.515 --> 00:42:40.260
Got it. But do you think that they're now starting to do new things? Does this not count as doing new things? No. No.
592
00:42:40.660 --> 00:42:41.780
No. I don't.
593
00:42:42.100 --> 00:42:43.140
And why is that?
594
00:42:45.620 --> 00:42:50.500
Don't think you don't think a grad student if they if they prove Navier Stokes would not become get a PhD out of it?
595
00:42:51.365 --> 00:42:56.005
I think they would. But what I'm saying is they would have people they would have had to have
596
00:42:56.645 --> 00:42:58.165
done something that
597
00:42:58.645 --> 00:43:11.930
let's just put it this way. If a computer could do it using linear using a linear combination of what it's already loaded up with, it wasn't new. That's my because that's the point. So, like, there there's a lot of this there's I think there's years of low hanging fruit
598
00:43:12.090 --> 00:43:12.810
where
599
00:43:14.410 --> 00:43:17.690
computers are gonna accelerate what human beings could have done.
600
00:43:17.850 --> 00:43:18.250
So
601
00:43:19.465 --> 00:43:31.305
I didn't mean to interrupt you with that. I just but that was like the real point there. Right? Got it. Got it. Well, I would say the other interesting thing related to all of this is this like world of formalization of proofs.
602
00:43:31.705 --> 00:43:37.690
And it actually goes back folded nicely from the earlier part of the conversation talking about you don't have mathematical
603
00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:38.890
certainty of defense.
604
00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:45.930
This is a new emerging thing in cybersecurity and computer science with can you formally verify computer programs?
605
00:43:46.835 --> 00:43:55.635
And if you could formally verify the execution of code, are you able to in a way get a higher bound of certainty of the security of the software that you're running?
606
00:43:56.115 --> 00:44:06.030
And I actually was asked I asked this. I on Tuesday this week, I recorded HellMoney podcast with Casey and Aaron. And I mentioned this, and I'll give you everyone a little preview. Casey was like, fuck no.
607
00:44:06.270 --> 00:44:10.670
Because the problem is is you'll statically verify this function or this system,
608
00:44:10.910 --> 00:44:28.645
but you're never gonna be able to get to the entire universe of all of the interoperability and complexity. So you're gonna, like, have this perfect perfect function, but, the processor it's running on is gonna allow for arbitrary, like, remote code execution, which then fucks your entire thing. Right? Basically, like, the daemons will exist in whatever part of the system you don't formally verify. And because of that,
609
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.500
like,
610
00:44:30.820 --> 00:44:36.660
it's nice. It's maybe better than not having it, but it you can't view it as a panacea and like a complete security solution.
611
00:44:38.420 --> 00:44:40.340
Yeah. So the and that
612
00:44:41.060 --> 00:44:45.335
it's kinda like it's all weaving around the same thing, which is
613
00:44:46.934 --> 00:44:47.895
there's a
614
00:44:49.575 --> 00:44:51.415
math math is for us.
615
00:44:52.775 --> 00:44:55.015
Math is not for the clankers.
616
00:44:55.175 --> 00:44:59.015
And so let me go back and tell you one of the things I I just like.
617
00:45:00.160 --> 00:45:03.040
I spent the last two and a half months with
618
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.920
a textbook called Algebraic Number Theory and Fermat's Last Theorem.
619
00:45:09.200 --> 00:45:10.560
And the reason
620
00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:14.480
I was using this textbook was because of the discovery
621
00:45:15.135 --> 00:45:17.215
I had with Kayla.
622
00:45:17.215 --> 00:45:20.415
And I think we you and we were three of us were talking.
623
00:45:21.055 --> 00:45:26.175
And, know, we went through this whole 12, however many episodes we did on Elliptic curves,
624
00:45:26.655 --> 00:45:27.535
and saying, you know,
625
00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:35.540
we need to in order to validate your private key, we know we know that all the points in the elliptic curve or group.
626
00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:36.980
Right? Yeah.
627
00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:37.860
And
628
00:45:38.260 --> 00:45:40.500
under this operation called point addition.
629
00:45:41.645 --> 00:45:49.965
And we went through this whole thing to show how you could validate your private key if you know the public key and it's actually the only way really is to know
630
00:45:50.205 --> 00:45:59.360
this. It's the only way to validate it is to know this algebraic properties. And then we got to the I got to this point and had this light bulb moment like, shit, somebody has to prove
631
00:46:00.240 --> 00:46:04.240
that those points on the elliptic curve are a group.
632
00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:06.160
Like, how do we do that?
633
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:07.359
And,
634
00:46:08.645 --> 00:46:11.445
you know, there's no again, there's no Bitcoin store.
635
00:46:11.685 --> 00:46:12.645
And there's no
636
00:46:12.885 --> 00:46:23.204
algebra store either to tell you how to do these things either. Right? So you just have to go. And I found this textbook that chapter 13 was elliptic curves.
637
00:46:24.270 --> 00:46:32.430
And but it was like a real build. It was an abstract algebra build into elliptic curves. So I like had some pretty decent confidence that if I can get through this book, and I can get into
638
00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:34.270
and I can get to this section,
639
00:46:34.750 --> 00:46:40.305
it might show me something, right? It might give me some direction as to how to where
640
00:46:40.625 --> 00:46:41.905
this proof is going to live.
641
00:46:42.465 --> 00:46:45.025
And it turns so like it turns out that,
642
00:46:45.905 --> 00:46:48.145
like what does Fermat's last theorem have to do with any of this?
643
00:46:49.359 --> 00:46:51.040
Fermat's Last Theorem
644
00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:52.400
was,
645
00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:00.480
you know, three fifty year old problem. It was well known because of how long it took
646
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:02.320
to prove.
647
00:47:03.015 --> 00:47:03.655
Right?
648
00:47:03.815 --> 00:47:04.375
And,
649
00:47:05.815 --> 00:47:07.095
you know, legendarily,
650
00:47:07.095 --> 00:47:17.830
from Matt wrote in those margins, like, Oh, he's like, I didn't I didn't have enough room for the proof, but anyone can do it. So just enough time to I don't have time. Blah blah blah. Here it is. Right? And then he dies, and
651
00:47:18.710 --> 00:47:21.270
no one can do this proof. Right?
652
00:47:21.830 --> 00:47:23.030
The thing so
653
00:47:23.590 --> 00:47:25.910
the question really is what happened
654
00:47:26.310 --> 00:47:31.135
in those three hundred and fifty years? Right? What happened in those three fifty years was we got
655
00:47:32.575 --> 00:47:36.735
we invented new fields of math to solve to try to prove this thing.
656
00:47:37.055 --> 00:47:39.215
We invented algebraic number theory.
657
00:47:40.095 --> 00:47:40.735
We
658
00:47:41.935 --> 00:47:44.494
figured out something called
659
00:47:43.950 --> 00:47:45.310
modular forms,
660
00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:48.430
we got this thing called the
661
00:47:48.990 --> 00:47:51.070
Taniyama Shimura conjecture,
662
00:47:51.070 --> 00:47:56.510
actually more known as Taniyama Shimura Weil conjecture in the context of Fermat's last theorem,
663
00:47:57.575 --> 00:48:02.535
which then connects this idea that if an elliptic curve is a modular form,
664
00:48:03.255 --> 00:48:06.375
this is part of how you know that it's a group.
665
00:48:06.855 --> 00:48:09.494
But also, this is how you get to Fermat's Last Theorem.
666
00:48:10.420 --> 00:48:16.980
And it's a three it was a three hundred and fifty year process that did have prize money associated with it that did have incentives.
667
00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:17.860
But,
668
00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:24.005
you know, people worked and worked and worked and worked on this and ended up with fray elliptic curves and eventually
669
00:48:24.005 --> 00:48:26.245
got to what Andrew Weilz
670
00:48:26.405 --> 00:48:27.925
was able to prove.
671
00:48:28.805 --> 00:48:29.445
And,
672
00:48:30.325 --> 00:48:36.645
you know, you just have to go back in time three hundred and fifty years ago and ask the question, well, what if a clanker just just did it?
673
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:42.380
Do we not? Do we not spend the next three fifty years developing
674
00:48:42.380 --> 00:48:43.100
these
675
00:48:43.420 --> 00:48:44.220
fields?
676
00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:47.100
Do we not do that? Are we no longer curious?
677
00:48:48.875 --> 00:48:51.515
You know, that's the first question, right?
678
00:48:54.155 --> 00:49:01.275
If you start shortcutting the journey, I see your point, right? That like, do we stop developing new ways to try and
679
00:49:01.910 --> 00:49:06.310
solve these problems that develop into their own fruitful fields of exploration.
680
00:49:07.030 --> 00:49:11.750
Maybe my counterpoint on that would be we just bump up against the edges of the system sooner
681
00:49:11.830 --> 00:49:16.870
and we figure out new ways to expand and think about thoughts and ideas and probably AIs can be helpful,
682
00:49:17.375 --> 00:49:22.655
contributory to understanding new possible fields of math and this would be like the acceleration argument
683
00:49:22.895 --> 00:49:25.295
that like what took three fifty years,
684
00:49:26.255 --> 00:49:34.450
you know, we're going be able to do quicker now and then like when we bump up against the edges, we're going be able to start figuring those new things where you're like your AI PhD mathematicians
685
00:49:34.450 --> 00:49:36.210
are going be like supercharged
686
00:49:36.290 --> 00:49:45.650
to be able to find those new fields of exploration and get them mapped out. It's not that like we're figuring out all of human knowledge, we're expanding out to the gap of what is available within our current understanding
687
00:49:46.125 --> 00:49:51.885
And then once that's and we're at this like just like in cybersecurity, we're at this inflection this moment because we have
688
00:49:53.005 --> 00:49:55.645
decades in cybersecurity and millennia
689
00:49:55.645 --> 00:49:58.045
in math where we're hitting up against like,
690
00:49:58.770 --> 00:50:05.810
okay, what were things that humans could have figured out and we did not know? And you start bumping around those edges and then when that's all figured out, you start the
691
00:50:05.970 --> 00:50:09.090
PhDs now instead of trying to figure out the gaps in the human knowledge,
692
00:50:09.330 --> 00:50:16.105
like in the sense of we had the answer, just didn't know how to think about it properly being like, okay, what are the new fields of math we need to start thinking about?
693
00:50:18.744 --> 00:50:21.865
Well, yeah, but how do you know how do you know that?
694
00:50:22.105 --> 00:50:25.145
So here's the first question is first of all, who
695
00:50:25.704 --> 00:50:27.704
can a human being validate these proofs?
696
00:50:30.970 --> 00:50:33.690
Isn't that the idea with the formalization
697
00:50:33.690 --> 00:50:35.530
that it basically, like, takes
698
00:50:35.690 --> 00:50:42.170
you take little baby brick by brick and you build it up? Like, there's, like, 10,000 sub proofs that are part of the neighbor strokes proof.
699
00:50:43.255 --> 00:50:48.775
Right? Isn't that supposed to be part of it that like you take these discrete pieces and you build them up to a complete understanding?
700
00:50:49.655 --> 00:50:52.935
Yeah. But what do we know? Like I guess the question is how do what
701
00:50:53.815 --> 00:50:55.015
do we know of
702
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.520
that validation?
703
00:50:57.720 --> 00:51:03.160
Well, I guess this is the, this is maybe to your point too, the problem with using mathematical proofs,
704
00:51:03.560 --> 00:51:04.840
and like groundbreaking
705
00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:08.600
like discoveries as like research, it hasn't gone through peer review yet.
706
00:51:09.295 --> 00:51:10.415
And,
707
00:51:10.415 --> 00:51:14.255
you know, you also have to ask what's the this is like,
708
00:51:14.655 --> 00:51:23.360
I really love this conversation because this goes back to what's the point of mathematics to begin with. Mean, and I'm not saying I know what the point is, but like, in my mind,
709
00:51:23.680 --> 00:51:25.440
you know, if you really just go back
710
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:29.120
and ask what the hell is even mathematics,
711
00:51:29.120 --> 00:51:29.840
right?
712
00:51:30.720 --> 00:51:32.000
It's not
713
00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:34.400
adding, it's not calculation,
714
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.400
it's not arithmetic, it's not computation.
715
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:39.705
In fact, at some level to me, mathematics is nothing more than
716
00:51:40.025 --> 00:51:41.945
a general thought exercise
717
00:51:43.305 --> 00:51:44.025
that
718
00:51:44.585 --> 00:51:45.705
works
719
00:51:46.505 --> 00:51:47.785
towards formalization.
720
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:51.400
It's a thought exercise.
721
00:51:51.560 --> 00:51:56.680
You know, it's just a the reason why we use number systems is because those are like
722
00:51:57.640 --> 00:52:00.360
sort of good game board pieces
723
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:05.215
to help make the arguments. It's the same reason you use cards in poker.
724
00:52:05.695 --> 00:52:06.575
It's just
725
00:52:06.815 --> 00:52:14.015
they help make form the argument. Poker is no more they like a game of poker is no more than a thought exercise.
726
00:52:14.575 --> 00:52:17.855
Sure. And, you know, somebody says I'm better than you.
727
00:52:19.050 --> 00:52:19.770
And,
728
00:52:19.850 --> 00:52:27.370
you know, they're going to act and imply that they are but everyone knows at the end, everyone's going to find out if we get there.
729
00:52:27.610 --> 00:52:31.690
Right? But it's still it's just a game. It's a game to say I have an argument.
730
00:52:32.454 --> 00:52:35.175
And you either believe it and you or you don't.
731
00:52:35.734 --> 00:52:40.135
And we're gonna, you know, we're gonna bet our assets against.
732
00:52:40.214 --> 00:52:43.095
We're gonna use the fact that we're betting our assets against
733
00:52:43.575 --> 00:52:48.530
the fact that I have an argument to make. You can make a you're welcome to make a counterargument.
734
00:52:48.930 --> 00:52:55.170
And that's that's the game. And the mathematics at the high level is nothing more than thought exercises that
735
00:52:56.050 --> 00:52:57.330
become formalized,
736
00:52:58.685 --> 00:53:00.445
you know, through the
737
00:53:00.925 --> 00:53:05.885
little pieces. Like, the amino acids are the number systems. Do you think aesthetically
738
00:53:06.765 --> 00:53:16.420
there's, like like, there's something, like, aesthetically displeasing about these formal like, these mathematical formalized proofs as like machine code versus like papers?
739
00:53:19.140 --> 00:53:21.940
No. I actually in in some ways, it's preferable.
740
00:53:22.665 --> 00:53:28.825
Right? In some ways, I think it's if you're gonna make these formal if you're gonna do these formalizations,
741
00:53:29.625 --> 00:53:33.625
right, I think this is this may be a great breakthrough in the formalization.
742
00:53:33.865 --> 00:53:34.585
Right.
743
00:53:34.985 --> 00:53:38.490
I was thinking, like, the formalizations too actually make it more approachable
744
00:53:38.650 --> 00:53:46.890
for people to be able to follow along in the proofs and distribute the knowledge. Because, like, when this eventually gets published and I wanna ask, like, how does this work?
745
00:53:47.575 --> 00:53:58.455
It'll have the total sum rather than it being like predictive text guessing how to like answer my question. It's just going to load the proof and look at the code and then translate that into words which is a much cleaner
746
00:53:58.535 --> 00:54:04.580
way to make sure things don't get lost in translation than scanning the papers and trying to predictively token guess the next word.
747
00:54:05.779 --> 00:54:06.339
Yeah,
748
00:54:07.779 --> 00:54:10.180
if anything, what this is doing
749
00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:11.300
is
750
00:54:11.539 --> 00:54:13.619
it's exposing the need
751
00:54:15.635 --> 00:54:16.675
in AI.
752
00:54:17.075 --> 00:54:19.715
What it's doing is it's advancing AI
753
00:54:19.795 --> 00:54:24.915
more than it's advancing math. Because what AI doesn't have is a great audit function
754
00:54:25.555 --> 00:54:28.030
to audit every action
755
00:54:28.030 --> 00:54:32.830
that it does. And that's what's needed. That's what you know, so in other words, maybe, know, if anything,
756
00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:39.069
this idea of we're going to go through a thought exercise called can AI actually prove anything?
757
00:54:40.134 --> 00:54:44.855
Well, what would be needed in order to demonstrate that? Well, we would need a really,
758
00:54:45.174 --> 00:54:49.815
you know, we used to have this problem. I'll say I used to have this problem in quant space,
759
00:54:49.974 --> 00:54:52.775
when you had Monte Carlo simulations
760
00:54:53.609 --> 00:54:56.410
that were using, say, ephemeral seeds,
761
00:54:56.569 --> 00:54:57.130
and
762
00:54:58.569 --> 00:55:01.529
you know, you really wanted to basically validate
763
00:55:01.529 --> 00:55:02.170
your
764
00:55:03.769 --> 00:55:04.650
calculation,
765
00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:06.170
your 20,000
766
00:55:06.375 --> 00:55:07.335
scenarios,
767
00:55:07.335 --> 00:55:09.735
but you really couldn't do it because you're,
768
00:55:10.615 --> 00:55:11.575
you know, you were generate
769
00:55:12.295 --> 00:55:14.775
like, back back before disk space
770
00:55:15.415 --> 00:55:16.055
was,
771
00:55:16.455 --> 00:55:22.840
you know, before Moore's law allowed for it, you would just you know, you wouldn't store all the simulations in memory.
772
00:55:23.080 --> 00:55:27.400
Right? You would destroy them. And then you would have your results.
773
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.760
And you would say, well, my math says the average,
774
00:55:31.560 --> 00:55:35.575
know, the math of it's called the Feynman Cag theorem
775
00:55:35.895 --> 00:55:39.815
says that the average of all these simulations is equals
776
00:55:40.934 --> 00:55:42.055
the expected
777
00:55:42.375 --> 00:55:42.694
value. And
778
00:55:44.970 --> 00:55:47.130
okay, good, right? But then it's like,
779
00:55:47.450 --> 00:55:48.570
at some point,
780
00:55:48.970 --> 00:55:49.610
right?
781
00:55:49.770 --> 00:55:51.290
The banks got wrecked.
782
00:55:51.850 --> 00:55:55.290
Because they couldn't validate that they actually couldn't validate that
783
00:55:55.290 --> 00:55:58.250
their simulations even converged to that expectation.
784
00:55:58.815 --> 00:55:59.615
Right.
785
00:55:59.855 --> 00:56:06.095
So what needed to be done was to go back, you know, was to go back underneath that hood and say, hey, before you destroy that,
786
00:56:06.494 --> 00:56:20.590
we, you know, no, we need to store all that. Right. Right. Right. And then we need to hire a team literally that's just gonna look at the thread that The logs. Goes through all that. It goes through all those, and we call that audit trail. I mean, this is the audit trail is just like,
787
00:56:21.230 --> 00:56:24.750
you know, if you're a boss of the function that
788
00:56:24.990 --> 00:56:26.785
does all that, your
789
00:56:27.585 --> 00:56:29.665
your fucking head spins all the You
790
00:56:30.305 --> 00:56:34.145
know, you're dealing with, you know, I remember when the 65,000
791
00:56:34.145 --> 00:56:37.025
row limit in Excel was finally exceeded.
792
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:41.360
You know, because you couldn't even then bring these things into
793
00:56:41.680 --> 00:56:43.119
what that's from, right?
794
00:56:43.680 --> 00:56:44.960
Bytes 65,
795
00:56:45.200 --> 00:56:47.520
five thirty four. That's FF,
796
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:48.640
is it? It's
797
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:50.400
two to the 16.
798
00:56:51.359 --> 00:56:53.875
Yeah. Isn't that FF? And x? I think x.
799
00:56:54.835 --> 00:56:58.675
Well, two to the 16 minus one. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah.
800
00:56:59.875 --> 00:57:01.474
Right. So, like, again,
801
00:57:02.035 --> 00:57:03.795
this is all to say that
802
00:57:04.850 --> 00:57:05.490
what
803
00:57:05.730 --> 00:57:08.130
the human race may be grappling
804
00:57:08.130 --> 00:57:12.290
with and what this is all contributing to is this ability
805
00:57:13.010 --> 00:57:13.970
to validate.
806
00:57:14.850 --> 00:57:22.075
And you know, we were not very good before AI at validating and then AI has come and put even a whole nother level,
807
00:57:22.075 --> 00:57:23.755
whole levels of
808
00:57:24.875 --> 00:57:25.915
abstraction
809
00:57:25.994 --> 00:57:28.635
on you know, like untraceable abstraction
810
00:57:28.635 --> 00:57:30.555
into the I'm
811
00:57:30.555 --> 00:57:33.195
guessing most people don't even know that it's deterministic.
812
00:57:34.340 --> 00:57:38.180
It just quick correction. Two to the 16 minus one is FFFF.
813
00:57:38.180 --> 00:57:40.340
It's four F's. FFFF.
814
00:57:41.300 --> 00:57:41.780
You.
815
00:57:42.100 --> 00:57:45.860
That, you know, we're in the bath pod. We gotta get that right. I
816
00:57:46.420 --> 00:57:48.100
would rather just keep rage baiting
817
00:57:48.744 --> 00:57:57.785
people like Alan into, like, coming on a show. Coming on and just being incorrect. Yeah. Just leave these errors. I've I've learned the wisdom of just leaving these errors out there. Right.
818
00:57:58.665 --> 00:57:58.984
Totally.
819
00:58:01.010 --> 00:58:05.250
Right. But, like, so maybe what were the inflection point for humanity now is that,
820
00:58:06.050 --> 00:58:15.010
a like, AI is exposing the fact that we were not very good AI and Bitcoin are exposing the fact that we were not very good at validating things before the fact before all this.
821
00:58:15.915 --> 00:58:20.715
We didn't care, and we didn't know, and it's necessary as fuck to do it. And,
822
00:58:21.595 --> 00:58:23.035
know, and I think that's
823
00:58:23.515 --> 00:58:26.875
to me, that's the only value here being brought to bear.
824
00:58:32.490 --> 00:58:33.930
Maybe
825
00:58:33.930 --> 00:58:39.290
the field of mathematics is limited by our ability to validate also. Maybe we're
826
00:58:39.290 --> 00:58:42.985
not ready. We're just not ready to spend the next three fifty years
827
00:58:43.705 --> 00:58:45.305
off finding
828
00:58:45.625 --> 00:58:46.585
new math
829
00:58:46.985 --> 00:58:50.905
to solve naive or stokes. Right? We're just not ready to do that.
830
00:58:52.440 --> 00:59:00.360
I almost feel in the same spirit of that, though, if we're able to build the tools that are able to solve it and use the technology, maybe we haven't arrived to the point where it's time to solve it.
831
00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:09.815
Perhaps. Doctor. Right. And like, this is the complicated part of it. They've announced that they've solved it but it hasn't been peer reviewed yet. The peer review is going to take
832
00:59:11.095 --> 00:59:12.535
a year like
833
00:59:13.335 --> 00:59:18.535
months, year like I don't know like It could take a day where they realized something was wrong.
834
00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:19.760
Right.
835
00:59:20.560 --> 00:59:25.360
Right. That's what I mean. And like this is such a complicated thing. It takes time to validate these things.
836
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:30.240
It means mean even that after you're a Yeah. After a while. I mean, after a while I
837
00:59:30.800 --> 00:59:38.285
could look it up like what was the time between when he, you know, when he submitted it to the time where it got peer reviewed?
838
00:59:39.805 --> 00:59:42.365
Talking about Fermat's Less Theorem. Yeah.
839
00:59:43.805 --> 00:59:44.525
It's
840
00:59:45.244 --> 00:59:47.405
it's gonna take this may take longer.
841
00:59:48.770 --> 00:59:50.130
And the question is,
842
00:59:52.210 --> 00:59:52.690
know,
843
00:59:53.250 --> 01:00:06.285
this is the same thing we deal with in Bitcoin and what we talk about on the podcast, which is the gap between the people doing this, and us is so much bigger. Even though we like we're all on Twitter engaging in this conversation.
844
01:00:06.605 --> 01:00:09.325
We're all in the public sphere engaging in this.
845
01:00:09.884 --> 01:00:15.820
Dude, mean, I can't believe how many people have asked me about this in the last couple of weeks. It's big news. Yeah.
846
01:00:16.540 --> 01:00:19.020
We're all engaging as though understand
847
01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:22.140
it. But the gap between the people
848
01:00:22.220 --> 01:00:24.780
doing the peer review and us is
849
01:00:25.674 --> 01:00:26.714
absurdly.
850
01:00:26.714 --> 01:00:29.275
It's absurdly great. Right? Yeah.
851
01:00:29.515 --> 01:00:30.315
Absolutely.
852
01:00:31.994 --> 01:00:38.155
Some level, that's just why I feel like it's annoying that it's being even it's even a dinner conversation
853
01:00:38.155 --> 01:00:38.635
topic.
854
01:00:40.520 --> 01:00:42.920
You finally made it and you're not getting what you want?
855
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.160
Well, wouldn't do it.
856
01:00:46.040 --> 01:00:50.360
Matt's dinner table conversation now. It's like the monkey's paw but at the worst context.
857
01:00:50.680 --> 01:00:59.975
We finally made it. Yes. And it's ex yeah. Exactly. You know what? I mean, yeah, this is the Mark Twain thing. Right? Like, I never I I
858
01:01:00.375 --> 01:01:02.855
wanna be in, like, every club except for the ones that would have me.
859
01:01:05.030 --> 01:01:06.630
Yeah. Was that Mark Twain or
860
01:01:09.910 --> 01:01:19.915
I've been a professional podcaster, and I've sneezed three times in the past thirty seconds without letting you guys all at home, but we're casual here. So you guys know that's why keep abruptly pausing my mic with half thoughts. Yeah.
861
01:01:20.075 --> 01:01:20.475
Those
862
01:01:20.954 --> 01:01:24.155
Trinidad scorpion peppers while you're doing podcasts.
863
01:01:24.315 --> 01:01:25.434
That's
864
01:01:25.434 --> 01:01:29.994
right. But, yeah, at this any club that would wanna have me is a club I don't wanna be part of.
865
01:01:30.555 --> 01:01:32.635
Yeah. That's I thought that was Mark Twain.
866
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:33.960
Yeah.
867
01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:47.480
Anyhow, I mean and it's not to say, hey. Let's not discuss it. But I just think it's just wild. It's it's just wild that it's the same thing kind of in the sec p two fifty six space where it's like,
868
01:01:49.255 --> 01:01:57.095
we can't have the same conversations about that library that we can have about Bitcoin Core because this the distance between them and us is so big. Well,
869
01:01:57.415 --> 01:02:04.190
I will say I would love to start having people start thinking about formal mathematical proving of sec p and also SHA two fifty six.
870
01:02:04.990 --> 01:02:05.789
Yes. So
871
01:02:06.910 --> 01:02:24.255
was Like like, those are that's really like the two load bearing things in Bitcoin are SecP and SHA two, and I wouldn't hate if some people started nerds getting nerds sniped into doing formal proofs for those two. You don't have to formally prove the p two p networking layer of Bitcoin. I don't care about that at the same level of, like, critical nature.
872
01:02:24.494 --> 01:02:30.654
But understanding that we that SHA two is secure within our understanding and SecP would be critical.
873
01:02:31.130 --> 01:02:33.770
Like people should get paid grants to do that for a year.
874
01:02:34.410 --> 01:02:44.970
Yeah. I told my daughter, I was like, you know, this stuff is good. She know, everyone's bombarded, you know, because she's a senior in college and a math major, and everyone's bombarding her now. Like, oh, no.
875
01:02:45.965 --> 01:02:46.685
AI is gonna
876
01:02:48.445 --> 01:02:49.085
you know,
877
01:02:49.565 --> 01:02:53.245
there's no more need for mathematicians anymore. And I'm sitting here laughing.
878
01:02:54.205 --> 01:02:56.205
You know, when I was a senior in college,
879
01:02:57.405 --> 01:02:59.960
studying to be an actuary, everybody
880
01:02:59.960 --> 01:03:00.760
was saying,
881
01:03:01.240 --> 01:03:04.440
well, there's computers for that now. So like, what do they
882
01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:06.120
do they need them for?
883
01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:13.160
And I will say I here's the other thing I wanted to talk about a little bit is that I actually think that this makes
884
01:03:13.535 --> 01:03:19.295
human beings more valuable. I think AI is actually making human beings more valuable, and I'm not starting to see it clearly.
885
01:03:20.495 --> 01:03:22.495
Not all of them, but like,
886
01:03:24.015 --> 01:03:29.410
know, I think the top 10% of them that can keep that have ability
887
01:03:30.130 --> 01:03:30.850
to
888
01:03:31.330 --> 01:03:34.450
stay above stick and tread water and wield it,
889
01:03:35.170 --> 01:03:36.530
I think are
890
01:03:36.930 --> 01:03:38.450
going to be insanely valuable.
891
01:03:39.505 --> 01:03:41.905
I think that the bottom 50%
892
01:03:41.905 --> 01:03:44.705
of humanity is gonna have their lives improved by it.
893
01:03:45.185 --> 01:03:48.625
And then I think that that midwit 40% is fucked.
894
01:03:51.265 --> 01:03:52.865
I
895
01:03:52.270 --> 01:03:53.710
maybe believe with that.
896
01:03:54.190 --> 01:03:55.550
Yeah. I think I'd
897
01:03:57.230 --> 01:03:58.670
there's I'm
898
01:03:58.670 --> 01:04:00.190
I'm fundamentally an optimist.
899
01:04:00.350 --> 01:04:01.230
I actually
900
01:04:01.790 --> 01:04:06.030
I think I'll have to think on this conversation more. I'm I'm not sure
901
01:04:07.585 --> 01:04:11.025
we maybe have maybe a good follow-up conversation with a spirited
902
01:04:11.025 --> 01:04:12.545
disagreement about this stuff
903
01:04:13.424 --> 01:04:14.785
because I think
904
01:04:15.585 --> 01:04:17.105
one fundamentally
905
01:04:17.585 --> 01:04:18.305
as an optimist,
906
01:04:19.089 --> 01:04:19.810
I
907
01:04:19.970 --> 01:04:20.770
view
908
01:04:20.770 --> 01:04:23.650
these tools as further accelerating
909
01:04:23.970 --> 01:04:26.370
the most productive people to doing more things.
910
01:04:26.770 --> 01:04:28.530
Right? And
911
01:04:28.770 --> 01:04:31.329
that is not strictly an intelligence thing.
912
01:04:32.845 --> 01:04:35.645
It is also people who are motivated and self determined.
913
01:04:35.885 --> 01:04:39.565
I think the red team stuff is a good just snapshot example of
914
01:04:40.045 --> 01:04:48.440
being motivated and wanting to challenge yourself and, like, do hard things. You're able to quickly catch up. There have been untold number of conversations I've had in the past six weeks
915
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:58.840
where I'll talk to someone who I'd consider a gray beard in Bitcoin or someone who is way smarter than me that that never two years ago would have thought I'd be getting them on the technical details of something. And
916
01:05:00.734 --> 01:05:16.350
they will I'll have a thesis. They'll say, well, no because x y and z. And I'll say, me put it in my clinker real quick and they'll laugh at me being like, but you don't understand this? I'm like, no. And then my clinker comes back with like a very pointed like counterpoint like, oh, actually, you know what? You may be right. Right? And that's just me is like,
917
01:05:16.829 --> 01:05:23.310
I'm a I'm a dumb insurance salesman. You know what I mean? And Aaron Redwing describes it as the the tarot card, the fool.
918
01:05:23.630 --> 01:05:29.310
That and the fool, everyone laughs at the fool, but the fool steps off the cliff and falls
919
01:05:29.470 --> 01:05:30.109
and
920
01:05:30.365 --> 01:05:33.085
is fine because he he is unburdened.
921
01:05:33.325 --> 01:05:39.165
Right? So you just I'm willingly waving my hand saying I'm ignorant, which, like, there's no ego death or, like,
922
01:05:40.444 --> 01:05:41.645
there's no shame.
923
01:05:41.805 --> 01:05:43.005
I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm
924
01:05:43.645 --> 01:05:46.820
yeah. Right. Yeah. And yeah. Exactly.
925
01:05:46.820 --> 01:05:50.020
Kama prescient Kama, one of my favorite modern philosophers.
926
01:05:50.820 --> 01:05:51.380
And
927
01:05:53.380 --> 01:05:54.980
it's interesting.
928
01:05:55.060 --> 01:06:01.700
And so, like, in the math space, seeing that, like, a bunch of people can just walk in and just do things that all of the wizards weren't able to do previously,
929
01:06:02.235 --> 01:06:05.115
I think is a positive story. Think there's
930
01:06:05.515 --> 01:06:06.875
and I think
931
01:06:07.195 --> 01:06:13.435
There's more hands to pick up a hammer. There's more hands to pick up a hammer. That's a good point way of phrasing it and
932
01:06:13.995 --> 01:06:16.475
there's going to be social and psychological
933
01:06:16.950 --> 01:06:23.190
changes for people who were used to a previous order who are not yet adjusted to the new set facts of things. And additionally,
934
01:06:23.190 --> 01:06:24.470
there's a part of
935
01:06:24.869 --> 01:06:26.070
it's happening.
936
01:06:26.150 --> 01:06:33.965
So living in the world where this is now happening and I cannot stop it and understanding how to reconcile that because resistance is futile.
937
01:06:34.125 --> 01:06:35.165
Like like,
938
01:06:35.165 --> 01:06:42.444
you're Yeah. Like, the the the store the the the toothpaste is not going back in the tube. You're not undoing this knowledge of, like and this ability to do this stuff. So
939
01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:49.100
the those who adapt sooner are gonna be better off rather than resisting it along the way.
940
01:06:49.740 --> 01:06:56.060
So interesting too because Kayla's also a math minor I'm sorry, a music minor. And everyone in music's having the same conversation.
941
01:06:56.694 --> 01:06:58.375
Yeah. Like like, oh,
942
01:06:58.934 --> 01:07:00.455
the barrier to entry now
943
01:07:00.775 --> 01:07:03.415
is so low to be Everyone's
944
01:07:03.415 --> 01:07:18.180
having this conversation. There's not me being honest. Maybe like, oh, my son's gonna be a plumber. It's like, okay. And then in in seven years when, like, the optimist robots from Elon can just be loaded in with, like, the plumber, like, brain map. Like, it's all everything's getting conversation.
945
01:07:18.180 --> 01:07:19.700
Like, your employability
946
01:07:20.420 --> 01:07:21.860
versus your value
947
01:07:22.260 --> 01:07:27.355
is a different there's this is a different conversation. And then, like, when I say value,
948
01:07:27.435 --> 01:07:34.395
I'm probably talking much higher level of like, what is the value of a human being? And I think math and music are two areas that
949
01:07:35.595 --> 01:07:38.555
do demonstrate that clearly without necessarily
950
01:07:38.555 --> 01:07:49.780
regard to who's going to pay them to do what they do. Because that we have a what like that's what I was saying before is there's an incentive issue that's now also going to have to get worked out to line up
951
01:07:50.099 --> 01:07:53.140
the value with actually getting paid for that value.
952
01:07:54.835 --> 01:07:59.555
A lot of what you said can be done right now is being done on a volunteer basis.
953
01:08:00.995 --> 01:08:10.350
Right? A lot of what people can do with red team and a lot of what people can do to get and that and the thing is, you know, okay, there's this conversation that if you are
954
01:08:11.869 --> 01:08:18.909
you're poor, you can't help. Right? We had this conversation last week, like you have to have your own oxygen. So if you're like fucking poor,
955
01:08:19.230 --> 01:08:20.265
and just trying
956
01:08:20.745 --> 01:08:24.825
to make your own living, you're not gonna you're not gonna open up a clanker and try to figure out,
957
01:08:25.385 --> 01:08:37.949
you know, what technical details of Bitcoin do I not understand? You're just not gonna do that. Right? So like, that's the first. That's why say it's an agency thing, not just an intelligence thing. You can have low IQ, high agents, like people that wanna like better do things.
958
01:08:38.429 --> 01:08:38.989
So
959
01:08:39.230 --> 01:08:46.510
it's you have to be in a position to do it. And for, you know, I you know, poor can mean a lot of things. But if you're time poor, we'll just say,
960
01:08:48.825 --> 01:08:55.145
which means you could, you know, like, I'm guessing the c the CEO of the company I last company I worked for doesn't
961
01:08:55.305 --> 01:08:56.585
isn't doing this either.
962
01:08:56.825 --> 01:08:58.585
You know, they're spending all
963
01:08:58.745 --> 01:09:00.185
their time making decks.
964
01:09:00.850 --> 01:09:02.210
That's
965
01:09:02.210 --> 01:09:09.889
all they do. Like, you know, if you if you spend literally twenty four hours a day making decks, you're not using AI to do any of this. You're not you're not helping.
966
01:09:10.530 --> 01:09:20.405
And so that's all. So there's this little pocket of people in Bitcoin that seem that seem to be able to spend time on things without needing to get paid right away.
967
01:09:21.285 --> 01:09:24.805
Okay. There's a small pocket of those types of people.
968
01:09:25.525 --> 01:09:30.245
And maybe there's the children right now, the children of
969
01:09:29.470 --> 01:09:30.590
well off people
970
01:09:31.310 --> 01:09:37.870
that can do that as well. Whether or not they're motivated to or not is a different question, but they can. They're not time poor.
971
01:09:39.470 --> 01:09:42.350
And probably caught you know, so like
972
01:09:43.935 --> 01:09:45.775
it's a fine
973
01:09:47.375 --> 01:09:48.975
needle to thread here
974
01:09:49.215 --> 01:09:50.495
in terms of like,
975
01:09:51.775 --> 01:09:54.655
trying to unpack what makes human beings valuable.
976
01:09:55.630 --> 01:09:58.590
What's going on with AI right now that's challenging
977
01:09:58.590 --> 01:10:00.190
that value equation,
978
01:10:01.230 --> 01:10:03.070
where people are saying, well, you know,
979
01:10:03.950 --> 01:10:13.395
human beings won't be valuable, friend. You know, there's a certain camp of people that's like, no, this is all going to be done by robots and human beings have no value. And I refuse to believe that. I do too.
980
01:10:14.515 --> 01:10:27.540
And so what I'm saying is I the more this happens, and the more I see it, like I've been we've been doing AI music for years, right? I feel like we've been on the we've been on the forefront of AI music in a lot of ways.
981
01:10:28.420 --> 01:10:31.540
I've had a couple number one tracks on Wavelake. Thank you very But
982
01:10:34.580 --> 01:10:39.504
what I'm saying is, I've always been see I've always seen that like, the
983
01:10:41.105 --> 01:10:43.024
value of humans is
984
01:10:44.385 --> 01:10:46.064
always increasing,
985
01:10:46.065 --> 01:11:11.235
the more it looks like it's decreasing. Right? And it's like, you know, I see I go to fish shows and I go to, you know, I see how people react to live music and the kind of thing that can be that computers just can't do. You know, there's people I have friends that go to these EDM festivals, and they're fun and all that. But then they, like, those guys are starting now first to come around and to like want to see bands like fish and they want like it's
986
01:11:11.235 --> 01:11:15.715
why is that after like thirty-forty years of obscurity are people
987
01:11:16.115 --> 01:11:24.630
who like to you know, people who go to concerts and have fun and spend a lot of their savings doing it all of a sudden finding their way
988
01:11:25.190 --> 01:11:26.790
to a live act,
989
01:11:27.110 --> 01:11:31.429
to a real live act, something that can't be actually just can't be done electronically.
990
01:11:32.310 --> 01:11:44.625
And so there's something that you know, I don't know that this is all high minded, I guess. Think boy shit. But like, I'm just saying that the value of humans is very to me is very present. It's in I see it in music.
991
01:11:44.945 --> 01:11:46.785
And I see it in math. And I'm like,
992
01:11:47.265 --> 01:11:51.150
having a convincing argument with my daughter that she's on the right track, that
993
01:11:51.710 --> 01:11:59.949
being a senior in college as a math major is a great thing to be right now. Because the math community is going to need
994
01:12:00.270 --> 01:12:01.869
capable human beings
995
01:12:02.110 --> 01:12:03.230
so much.
996
01:12:03.885 --> 01:12:11.405
And, you know, my point about when I was an actual when I was being, you know, actuarial science major, and everyone said that that's going to be replaced by computers.
997
01:12:13.165 --> 01:12:15.724
You know, in 1996, when I graduated college,
998
01:12:15.805 --> 01:12:16.365
actuaries
999
01:12:17.130 --> 01:12:19.289
basically did life insurance and
1000
01:12:20.090 --> 01:12:22.409
basic property casualty insurance. And that was it.
1001
01:12:23.210 --> 01:12:23.849
And
1002
01:12:24.090 --> 01:12:27.289
they I don't know how many people were employed in the space.
1003
01:12:27.770 --> 01:12:34.564
Oh, they did pensions, right? And guess what pensions are gone. Life insurance is very, it runs by itself.
1004
01:12:34.885 --> 01:12:41.364
And most property casualty insurance runs by itself. But now you, you know, I didn't know that the career would let me
1005
01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:46.159
run, you know, multi
1006
01:12:46.159 --> 01:12:47.119
$100,000,000,000
1007
01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:48.239
hedging programs,
1008
01:12:49.280 --> 01:12:53.359
because they'd be selling the stupidest and most complicated financial products
1009
01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:55.440
known to man. Spreadsheets
1010
01:12:55.855 --> 01:13:05.135
and computers allowed for that. And so what I'm saying is what we know, what math does in this field is a tiny speck of what it'll be in twenty years.
1011
01:13:05.775 --> 01:13:07.935
And AI is going to cause that.
1012
01:13:08.495 --> 01:13:08.815
Right?
1013
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:12.560
And you can be a very valuable human being
1014
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:14.000
by chasing
1015
01:13:15.440 --> 01:13:20.400
that wave. I think having high agency which I think is actually from a sense of
1016
01:13:22.574 --> 01:13:24.574
economic forces and
1017
01:13:26.414 --> 01:13:42.550
evolutionary biology. I think while intelligence obviously is critically important like how many highly intelligent people do you know that have low agency and they aren't doing anything, Right. I want the people that are really mixed. Most. Right. You actually have a curse where you get to a certain level of intelligence, your productivity drops off.
1018
01:13:43.110 --> 01:13:48.870
And I think it's beautiful the idea that people who are have high agency or self determined or unwilling to go just do things
1019
01:13:49.235 --> 01:13:58.275
are the ones who are rewarded. And I think AI removing the IQ gap barrier that would prevent you previously from doing things is now diminishing
1020
01:13:58.915 --> 01:13:59.555
is a Like good
1021
01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:05.659
I say that as a one zero five IQ person. Right? Like, just smart enough to know that I'm dumb.
1022
01:14:07.579 --> 01:14:09.979
Yeah. We were we're gonna go challenge
1023
01:14:10.780 --> 01:14:19.315
the E and Y audits on your IQ. That's right. That's right. Figure that. I was making a joke about red team just starting to go through SEC filings.
1024
01:14:20.355 --> 01:14:20.835
You
1025
01:14:21.635 --> 01:14:29.875
just start red teaming the whole stock market. You just start going through it. You know who'd be great for this heated debate? We're gonna have a appointed heated
1026
01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:32.480
worldview debate on this, you know who'd be either
1027
01:14:33.280 --> 01:14:35.599
great or absolutely terrible?
1028
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:36.800
Good one.
1029
01:14:38.400 --> 01:14:43.760
Oh, we have a good conversation with him. We should just bring him on some point for sure regardless. He just has such strong views on AI.
1030
01:14:44.325 --> 01:14:48.164
I know. I know. I've been meaning to catch up with him about all the stuff I've been doing.
1031
01:14:49.364 --> 01:14:51.605
Yeah. Like, I I think, you know,
1032
01:14:52.885 --> 01:14:56.085
I I've I like I've wanted to have him on the math podcast,
1033
01:14:57.460 --> 01:15:05.140
But I like just I don't know waiting for the right. Think now we should find a good time to do that. We should we should load him up. That would be a fun one. We should do that. Yeah.
1034
01:15:05.620 --> 01:15:10.500
What is our next actual like big? Are we doing hash function still? Is that our next big like
1035
01:15:10.965 --> 01:15:12.724
thing we're gonna hopper.
1036
01:15:12.725 --> 01:15:16.885
I'm still make you know, I I will admit I have
1037
01:15:17.685 --> 01:15:18.644
I have
1038
01:15:18.885 --> 01:15:20.324
pointed my efforts
1039
01:15:20.565 --> 01:15:22.164
elsewhere mathematically,
1040
01:15:22.565 --> 01:15:22.804
mostly
1041
01:15:24.710 --> 01:15:25.829
career oriented
1042
01:15:26.070 --> 01:15:28.789
in a career oriented fashion. But
1043
01:15:29.190 --> 01:15:34.469
I have a full study guide on hash functions. Just haven't I haven't been through it. Okay.
1044
01:15:35.270 --> 01:15:37.429
Okay. So like I have a I have it.
1045
01:15:38.075 --> 01:15:43.275
Yeah. I have probably I have dozens of study guides on subjects we could go through.
1046
01:15:43.595 --> 01:15:46.475
Yep. But I haven't been through like a full review.
1047
01:15:46.715 --> 01:15:47.355
Yeah.
1048
01:15:49.355 --> 01:15:57.070
And, you know, I do I do also have limited time, believe it or not, despite the fact that I'm not getting paid a cent for any of
1049
01:15:57.470 --> 01:16:09.855
to be here right now. I'm not being paid to be here right now. Big big math and big big math doesn't cut the checks like big Bitcoin. No. No. The big math you know, when big math starts making the Omnicos, man, maybe I'll start to Soon.
1050
01:16:11.135 --> 01:16:18.780
Okay. So that's that. That was good. If anything, if nothing else, the last forty five minutes, we can just release without the Yeah.
1051
01:16:19.180 --> 01:16:32.704
The Without our technical totally. Totally. We can just jump into it. If it's gonna like, honestly, if it's gonna take me, like, a day of like, I'll spend a full day trying to pull it together, but I don't know. Are we formally tying off the podcast? Are we doing post production talk on the pods?
1052
01:16:33.985 --> 01:16:35.184
Well, I'm thinking
1053
01:16:36.385 --> 01:16:40.304
where are we now? Are we good? I'm trying to think that I get it all. We're like an hour and
1054
01:16:40.625 --> 01:16:41.824
twenty minutes recorded
1055
01:16:41.985 --> 01:16:50.900
between the two. And so worst case scenario, this forty five minutes we can just jump into it. Hit, you know, we hit the good stuff. And then if you wanna combine them, go for it.
1056
01:16:51.860 --> 01:16:58.420
I'm gonna do my best to combine them. Well, think you're I think you're gonna want to because the first twenty minutes was a lot of the algebraic
1057
01:16:58.500 --> 01:17:04.055
representation of stuff. And so you're gonna have you you need you need to get that out of your system. You need to get that up into the world.
1058
01:17:07.168 --> 01:17:11.888
I think this is good though. Think we're ready to tie it off. Awesome. What do you think? Sick. I think we're great.
1059
01:17:12.288 --> 01:17:15.728
Alright. Magic Internet math in the books. Until next time.