Lunch Break with Kate Hundley at Cafe Sabarsky [Preview]

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Today's episode of Lunch Break features the talented designer Kate Hundley. I first met Kate while I was still at Saks, and I have made it a priority to follow her latest collections ever since. She is part of a new wave of designers making a significant impact in the industry, and I am thrilled to see where her journey takes her next. Rather than giving a lengthy introduction, I'll just say this: if you're looking for a new cape, the perfect dress for a gala, or a new bag, Kate’s pre-order is still open!

I've accumulated a considerable number of interviews, so instead of releasing them every other week, I'll be sharing them with you weekly from now on!

And if you have a moment, please take this survey. Your feedback helps me improve the newsletter and podcast for all of you. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

You can find Kate Hundley here and her website here.

Jalil Johnson: Hi.

Kate Hundley: Hi.

JJ: Could you please introduce yourself and who you are?

KH: I am Kate Hundley. I am a designer and I have my own collection, Kate Hundley.

JJ: Oh, fantastic. We are at... I am going to butcher how to say this.

KH: Me too, probably. It's okay.

JJ: Kate, how about you try?

KH: I'll give it a shot, and then please tell me when I'm wrong. Café Sabarsky at the... Someone told me it's Neue Galerie.

JJ:

I always thought it was The Neue (no͞o).

KH: Me too. And then I got the, "Well actually, if you want to say it like..." So, either.

JJ: Either, okay.

KH: All right.

JJ: I'm not going to attempt to say it, but it's beautiful. It's a beautiful...

KH: It's incredible.

JJ: ... wood-

JJ: Oh, hi. That was me, thank you.

Wait Staff : No, thank you.

JJ: Thank you. Such a beautiful setting. There is a table full of desserts. It's really gorgeous.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Usually, sometimes what happens when I'm having guests on, I sometimes pick the restaurant or sometimes the guest picks the restaurant. In this case, you decided on the restaurant.

KH: Yes.

JJ: I'm very curious, what was it about this restaurant that...

KH: Total voyeuristic interest of, we've walked past a hundred times, it looks so beautiful. It's a really special place. Like going to The Met, you are escaping on your way out and you walk past it and one day you're like, "Oh, we got to go there." And we just never make it. So, here we are with you.

JJ: I'm so excited. Well, thank you for having me.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: You're a designer. I'll also tell the audience how we first met, because there's also been a transition from when I first met you to now, in terms of your collection. When I first met you, it was The Beekman Hotel.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: I think it was 2022.

KH: I think so.

JJ: The collection was very... It made me think of Nudie suits.

KH: Yeah. That was very much part of that season, yeah.

JJ: It was very rhinestone-cowboy, which we love.

KH: Yes.

JJ: But now it's taken on a very cosmopolitan look and feel.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: My first question is, (A.) What made you want to start this brand? And then I definitely want to talk about also this transition and where you see the progression of the brand going.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: My first question is, (A.) What made you want to start this brand? And then I definitely want to talk about also this transition and where you see the progression of the brand going.

KH: Sure. My background is in a bit of both apparel and accessories. I went to SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design, and did fashion, started doing accessories, and then built more of an interest as time went on. As soon as I left, I interned at Zac Posen for a summer, which was incredible.

JJ: Amazing.

KH: And to see that level of workmanship, I got to work in the atelier, I was working with the pattern maker, it was insane. Working with the sample makers was such a good experience. And then I got more into accessories and I went to Coach. So, I had these balanced ends of what the industry can be. Going from the atelier, the super high level of craft to a bit more commercial but a bit more real in terms of what people are wearing and getting that leather experience.

But interestingly, we still had an atelier in the building, we had a workshop, so you still got to be hands-on with these people who've been making stuff for decades, who are passionate about getting the thickness of the leather just right, getting a stitch just right. It's a really special, unique experience to have in New York. And there's less of that now, but it definitely influenced wanting to create that in the future, keeping those kinds of crafts alive, keeping those jobs and those people's livelihoods alive, and the practice of doing that hands-on here.

I was at Coach for a few years and then I went over to Ralph Lauren, also doing bags. And at some point, I just really missed beautiful clothes, honestly, selfishly. And I love making things, so I started making things on my own time, making what I wanted, what I felt like was missing. That's where the collection has started.

But then, to your point of evolving from the Nudie stuff, it became a bit more of wearing the collection myself out in the world, what am I actually reaching for? And I love that crazy stuff as almost that special, one piece, but then it gets a bit tricky to wear it in real life.

JJ: Yeah.

KH: An interesting evolution. I think that stuff will come back at some point in little drips, but maybe not so full on.

JJ: Are you originally from the South?

KH: Yeah, I'm from Memphis originally.

JJ: Oh, amaz......

KH: But we moved around and I lost the accent. I kind of wish I still had it. When I talk to my mom on the phone, it comes back.

JJ: Oh, yeah. I-

KH: It's buried in there, somewhere.

JJ: It just needs a family member to bring it out of you.

KH: Yeah, some drinks.

JJ: Some of that too. I'm from the south. I'm from Virginia.

KH: Yes.

JJ: And I feel like I have done a great job of not having an accent.

KH: Oh, my gosh.

JJ: But in your same vein, when I talk to family, it comes out.

KH: Yes.

JJ: Which is quite amazing.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: From there you're now designing a collection.

KH: Yes.

JJ: Especially in the time that we're in, how does it feel to be putting pieces in the world?

KH: It's exciting, it's terrifying, but it's really gratifying.

JJ: What's terrifying you?

KH: Oh, my God. Department stores are in flux. Everyone's like, "Are we on fire?" The world, global war, there's so many things. But I think at the end of the day, we're all seeking beauty and seeking things that make us feel more like ourselves, and how to project what we want for our lives and our future on ourselves every day into the world.

JJ: My question to that is, as a young, emerging designer, do you still feel that the department stores are important to your growth? Where does that feel?

KH: It's important in terms of discovery, especially when... You meet people in New York and you find people to support you in this space, but stepping out of New York, I think it's still a great way for people to find you. I'm hoping that we are headed towards something that's a bit more cultivated and personal for the clients to find things. We're missing that point of view.

When I first moved to New York, Barneys was it. And you knew that if you went there, you were going to find something so interesting and so new, and you might learn something about yourself from it, of like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe I love this. Why do I like this?" It could send you on a discovery. But I haven't felt that way at the minute. There are some smaller stores that are doing that, which is really exciting. Like ESSX, I feel is doing that.

JJ: Yeah, for sure. With the Barneys of it all, I feel like I have to ask you, what was your first buy at Barneys? What was the first thing you bought?

KH: Oh, my gosh. I bought this Yves Saint Laurent ring. I love a big cocktail ring.

JJ: Oh, I love a cocktail ring.

KH: I think that's the Tennessee of it all, potentially. My mom used to sell antique jewelry.

JJ: Oh, man.

KH: She would drag me to all these flea markets and estate sales and just dig through piles of treasure. I have a little soft spot for a dirty flea market and some jewelry.

JJ: You design jewelry, right? Have you designed?

KH: A little bit. We've made some pieces for seasons, but I haven't really looked at making it for real for people to buy. But I want to, absolutely.

JJ: Oh, that's amazing. I'm so into jewelry right now.

KH: Yes, and you have excellent taste in jewelry.

JJ: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I try. I am obsessed with jewelry. It's my favorite thing right now. Because I feel like it can add such character to an outfit.

KH: Yes, and it becomes this little trail of where you've been...

JJ: Yes.

KH: ... of the things that you've collected at some point. Did that mean something? It's a gift. It becomes a little history.

JJ: Going back to the collections, I would love to talk about the last collection that you did. It was really beautiful and as always-

KH: Thank you.

JJ: ... an inspiration. It was really fantastic. What's the inspiration behind that? Also, as a designer with inspiration at your... Where do you go? I mean, you don't have to gatekeep where you're going.

KH: I'm definitely a homebody, so the starting point is typically Pinterest, and then we go to the Met or we go to the gallery.

JJ: That's amazing. Was that the inspiration for the last collection? What-

KH: This last collection, Peggy Guggenheim was the starting point.

……………………

JJ: Yes. I should have asked this question at the top of the podcast, but there is this question that I am taking from Plum Sykes. You might already know it, but it's a fantastic question. And the question is, what is your first experience with clothing?

KH: The first one I remember, my mom used to make everything. She's really brilliant at it. She used to make clothes for me. I was, I think it must've been four or five, I was tiny, obsessed with purple for some reason.

JJ: Really?

KH: Don't know why. Everything had to be purple.

JJ: Barney?

KH: I was obsessed. Lavender, for some reason, which is not something I pick up now but, I was obsessed. And she was like, "Fine, I'll give you some purple." I literally made a year's worth of clothing in lavender cotton, and I was just purple for two years. It was wild.

JJ: Oh, that's fantastic.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Are there photos of the lavender year?

KH: Probably. We'll have to find them. The lavender period of my life.

JJ: The lavender period. That's so fantastic. Also, I heard, and maybe you can even tell me if this is true, back when I was at Saks, there was a person that hated purple because they said that purple does not sell well.

KH: I don't know.

JJ: Is that true?

KH: I don't think it is, but I think it's not consistent. I think there's just one of those weird, little, cultural coming-together points where everyone's suddenly ready for it in its moment, but it filters back away.

JJ: It's very hit or miss.

KH: Mm-hmm.

JJ: I think purple is actually a very hard color to get right.

KH: It is, yes. Because like you said, Barney purple, you have these connotations immediately. And if you see someone in that, you're like, "Oh, no."

JJ: It's either Barney purple, which just has more of a pinkish to it...

KH: Mm-hmm.

JJ: ... or grape purple. But it's Welch's grape, which is not... No one wants to be a Welch's grape.

KH: That doesn't even taste like grape, but it just tastes like purple.

JJ: Yeah. I am wondering who out there in the world loves grape?

KH: Someone must.

JJ: Also, this is going on a random tangent. As you probably know, I love a tangent.

KH: Please, yes.

JJ: I think the worst two artificial flavors: Grape and banana.

KH: Oh, my God. Banana, yes. I support you. That's a hill to die on. Banana-flavored things? Ugh.

JJ: Disgusting. It's-

KH: Disgusting.

JJ: Tastes like chalk in your mouth.

KH: Of all the science we've figured out in our lives, we still haven't nailed that one somehow.

JJ: Yeah.

KH: It's not high on the list, I'm sure, but ugh.

JJ: It's terrible.

KH: It's terrible.

JJ: Then, on top of this, what do you think are the top... This is-

KH: Valid, yeah.

JJ: Top artificial flavor?

KH: Basic, but red is generally a... I'm sure that's the most toxic one.

JJ: Oh, you're going for color, not even fruit.

KH: Yeah. Tastes like purple, tastes like red. But also... Let me think.

JJ: I feel like red can take on... They have a few different flavors.

KH: You know what's also often amiss, is mango-flavored things. I feel like that's a tricky one.

JJ: True, very true. That's tough. Another thing: Artificial watermelon...

KH: Oh.

JJ: ... I don't think tastes anything like watermelon.

KH: No, but it's not a bad taste.

JJ: No. I prefer artificial watermelon over actual watermelon.

KH: Fair, yeah.

JJ: It actually tastes nothing like watermelon.

KH: No, you're probably right.

JJ: Thank you, Kate. Thank you, but this is just not... What do I know?

KH: Yeah, I hear you.

JJ: The other sad thing about growing up early 2000s, and also maybe in a small town without... I think I had some artificial fruits...

KH: Everything.

JJ: ... flavors, before I had the actual fruit. I think I tasted-

KH: Yeah, possibly.

JJ: - artificial water...

KH: We were not buying mango in Memphis. You know what I mean?

JJ: Where does one even buy mango?

KH: I don't know.

JJ: Or cherries? I think I had-

KH: Cherry's pretty reliable.

JJ: Actually, I don't know. Cherry's my top artificial flavor. I will say, I ate artificial, cherry-flavored things for years, and I think I had my first actual cherry when I was eight.

KH: Oh, my gosh.

JJ: I was a little confused. I was like, this is not-

KH: You're like, this is a lot of work for something that I can just get out of...

………………………………

JJ: Do you believe in manifesting?

KH: You know, I didn't used to because I found it all very cheesy and very.....

JJ: It's very woo-woo.

KH: It's a bit woo-woo. If I just concentrate really hard and have the perfect image on my board... I don't necessarily believe in that.

JJ: So, no vision boards for you?

KH: I haven't made a vision board-

JJ: I haven't either.

KH: ... because I'm a bit psychotic about imagery and I would never find the right ones, so I'm just never going to go there.

JJ: It just seems like a lot of work-

KH: Yes.

JJ: ... not to shame people that do the vision board.

KH: No. It works for people, and that's fantastic. But, it's not on my list. I don't know. But I do find it really useful, just putting some specific thought on what you want and what your goal is and where you're going.

Because New York especially, but anywhere, you can get caught in all the stuff that you're doing. What am I actually working towards? What's the goal? What do I want say? What do I want to be? What do I want to feel like in two years? What's around me to make that happen? What do I need to be to make that happen?

JJ: There was this phrase... Actually, I remember a lot from growing up in the church... that is really powerful. I don't even know where in the Bible it is or even if it is in the Bible. The phrase is, "You speak life and death with your tongue."

KH: Ooh.

JJ: Isn't that good?

KH: Yes. Oh, my God. I started reading The Four Agreements.

JJ: The what?

KH: The Four Agreements.

JJ: What's The Four Agreements?

KH: It's this... Now I'm going to completely butcher it... whole tech theory of having a good life, basically, and the themes of that. There are four, obviously.

The first one is being impeccable with your word. The idea is that your word is so powerful that that could determine your relationships with other people, your relationship to yourself, how you feel about yourself. Treat others as you want to be treated, but the power that can come with things like that, of however you talk to yourself is what you then internalize and become and project.

You can absolutely make your life with your words.

JJ: You definitely can. You can write your story.

KH: Absolutely.

JJ: As Natasha...

KH: Oh, my God.

JJ: ... said...

KH: You make a circle sometimes that's just really...

JJ: I didn't know, it's unwritten.

KH: Prophet of our time.

JJ: I got to see her perform live at a fashion show.

KH: I heard that was so much fun.

JJ: This is going to sound terrible, but... You have to stay with me.

KH: Sure.

JJ: My least favorite thing is when there is an artist who... Love them, but they are only known for two, three songs. They perform a hit. They perform the one that everyone knows. And then instead of continuing to perform the songs everyone knows, they're like, "This is off my new album."

KH: Mm. They're pushing it and trying to move and... Oh.

JJ: Natasha did not do that. That's what I'm saying. She...

KH: She leaned in hard.

JJ: She played her hits.

KH: All right.

JJ: She did throw in one that no one knew, except the person that... The designer wanted her there. I guess they're best friends.

KH: Sure he is.

JJ: He was the one person that was like-

KH: "Yes, girl. Do it."

JJ: To the song that no one knew. But he should....

KH: That's great. All right.

JJ: But, I appreciate her for playing the hits.

KH: That's a realistic take on... Because her song was on that show, right?

JJ: Which show?

KH: There was a reality show.

JJ: The Hills.

KH: Reality show number one. Yeah, yes.

JJ: No.

KH: So, she had to take it and run.

JJ: Did you ever watch the movie Easy A?

KH: I love that movie.

JJ: It's one of my favorite movies.

KH: I love that movie.

JJ: It is so good.

KH: It is.

JJ: Did you know, actually, it was supposed to be a series of movies?

KH: Oh.

JJ: It was supposed to be a series of, I suppose, modern-day takes of classic books.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Hers just-

KH: That's a good concept, yeah.

JJ: I don't know what ever happened. The next one was supposed to be Huckleberry Finn.

KH: Oh, my gosh.

JJ: I guess that's-

KH: That's a tricky one. Give it a shot. Who knows.

JJ: But hers was, of course, The Scarlet Letter. Which when I read it in high school, again, I was disappointed.

KH: Me too.

JJ: I will say, there was a witch in The Scarlet Letter that I live for.

KH: I have to go back and reread it.

JJ: She was the best thing out of that book. She was on a roof. She was yelling.

KH: Great.

JJ: Organized chaos. It was fantastic.

…………………………………….

JJ: Thank you. I think this really is interesting for the interview, the conversation. I'm going to ask you if you have any questions for me.

KH: Oh. What has been the most surprising part of your recent pivot and focusing more on this side of yourself?

JJ: Oh, that's a good question.

KH: Have you found you're more interested in parts of it than you expected? Are there challenges you weren't anticipating?

JJ: I think the number development, I have to pay attention to the numbers now, which is scary, but it's really important. It's been leading into that more. I think also in fashion, and the industry, and captial fashion, there's all this politics around appearances and what we can and cannot do to keep appearances. But I realized that those people are not paying the bills.

KH: True.

JJ: There are things that I have had to get over. I guess it's being too proud to do certain things.

KH: Yes.

JJ: Because at the end of the day it's like, what is being...

KH: I was listening to... I want to say it was Lauren Sherman's podcast, now that she's doing Puck. I don't remember who she was speaking to, but she was talking about this generational, and debating if it's a generational thing or if it's maybe a background thing, the differences between Millennials and Gen Z. And she was talking about the TikTok and influencer phenomenon, and the lack of shame that some people feel around get the bag, do the thing. There's not this feeling of shame in people who are in TikTok and maybe it's Gen Z.

She was like, "As a Millennial, I find a huge amount of shame on something like that, the risk of feeling like a sellout."

JJ: Yes.

KH: And I don't know if we're crossing that bridge, everyone as a culture, or if it's a time-period thing. I don't know. It's interesting to think about it that way.

JJ: I listened to that too. First off, I think generational things are for the most part malarkey. There are differences, of course. I hate when people are like, "All Gen Zs is like this."

KH: Right.

JJ: I'm just like, "I know several people older than me that are doing that."

KH: Absolutely. I met people 10 and 15 years older than me who are very much at home on TikTok and acting exactly like a 24-year-old person, yeah.

JJ: But in terms of the sellout part, I'm reading this book about yuppies.

KH: Ooh.

JJ: I'm obsessed.

KH: I have to read that one. Yeah, yeah.

JJ: It's called Triumph of the Yuppies. Basically, it's asking the question of the baby boomer, who in the '60s were revolutionists, how come they pivoted to being a hardcore capitalist, and also refusing to leave positions of power? That's besides the point.

KH: Oh, my God. Go to Florida, chill out. It's fine. You'll be happy.

JJ: But the line that I just read in there, which made me think...... The question was, "Did they sell out or did they just grow up?" In some cases, yes, you're selling out. But I also think it's in some cases you grow up.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Currently, you need money to live, and appearances can only get you so far.

KH: Right, yeah. There's truth to fake it until you make it, of reject the thing that you're attempting to be to make it happen.

JJ: Yes.

KH: That's real. I think a lot of it is just getting acquainted with reality sometimes and understanding that that's cute, but how are you paying your rent this month?

JJ: Yeah, that is a question. The other thing I've realized... And this was from quitting my job... Not quitting, I don't like that word. I left. Because I left on my own accord.

KH: Oh.

JJ: Just because something hasn't been done, doesn't mean that it's not possible.

KH: Absolutely. Yeah. Or there's not a different way to approach it. Fashion evolves all the time. The ways that we're doing the same things evolve all the time. The format that you are doing, the thing that people have always done, is changing and new and exciting. Who knows what's going to happen?

JJ: Yeah, exactly. I'm very interested to see where fashion goes in even the next year.

KH: Oh, yeah.

JJ: Because we're at an interesting crossroads with the old way of doing things in a new way. And there's an old guard that is actively, I don't think realizing what's happening, changing.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Something that I love about Substack and love about this new way is I get to help brands.

KH: Right.

JJ: Like you were telling me before, you're able to see...

KH: Chat. You can absolutely see the connection. I can look at, on my end, the people who have found me because they already know and love you. That's a direct thing.

JJ: That that makes me feel happy.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Because I think you all, the new guard of designers, are the future.

KH: I hope so. We're trying

JJ: Not hope. I know, I know.

KH: We're making it happen. I'll use that word.

JJ: You have to speak it into existence.

KH: Yes. We're going to be impeccable with our word.

JJ: You're the new guard.

KH: Thank you.

JJ: It's very important that you are here, and it's important for people to get to know about you.

KH: Thank you.

JJ: And sometimes I don't know if...

KH: It's hard to break through, and you...

JJ: It's really hard.

KH: There's all these things. When I was in school, I graduated in 2009. That was Proenza timeline, of you saw that story and thought that that was how it had to go, of you make this splashy collection, Barneys comes and discovers you and then makes it all happen. The reality in the background was, I'm sure, not nearly as much of a straight line, and obviously very difficult in what that was, because that's not how it happens anymore.

And what does that look like now? It's impossible to say and it's different for everyone and it's always changing. And maybe you don't need some giant department store to come and rescue you. Maybe you can try to find your own way, which is thorny and weird and scary.

JJ: It's scary.

KH: But, we....

JJ: It's very unknown.

KH: Yes.

JJ: That's the most scary thing.

KH: Of course.

JJ: There's a lot of unknown right now, especially with an election that we don't know what's going to happen. There's all these things that are very... The world...

KH: The world.

JJ: ... the environment, all these things. But a positive spin on it, the way that we push past those, the way that we do get better is with change, and a new group of people who are thinking about things differently.

KH: Yes. Let's do that.

JJ: With that, thank you so much for being on here.

KH: Thank you for having me. This was so fantastic.

JJ: To close up every interview, I ask my guests the three same questions. They're not scary, so I hope you're not scared. As my newsletter is called Consider Yourself Cultured-

KH: Yes.

JJ: ... who is the most cultured person you know?

KH: A friend of mine. I think my friend, Sid, is probably the most cultured person I know. And I'm sure it helps that he's not from the US. He's from India.

JJ: Oh, amazing.

KH: He's traveled so extensively and he's seen so many different places and kinds of people. I think it's mostly that he's got this apparent curiosity. He's always interested in a new experience and a new way of thinking. He's super interested in art. He's always looking for that new, exciting, stimulating, beautiful thing.

An I love people who can tell you some obscure furniture reference that you didn't know that you needed to go become obsessed with.

JJ: Like what? What did he tell you about?

KH: He's got a friend in Brooklyn that has these resin candlesticks.

JJ: Wow.

KH: Some weird, new... but it's a lot of that. When I was at Coach, our creative director was Reed Krakoff. I distinctively remember this turning point in my mind of how to approach fashion. I was like, "It's Coach. It's a very democratic kind of place." And he was talking about these Hermès... What was it? You know those canteens that you take camping, like a water bottle sort of thing?

JJ: Yes.

KH: But a very fancy, stainless steel version. They've done a gorgeous steel-plated-

JJ: It's beautiful.

KH: ... leather wrapped. It's beautiful. He instantly throws out that kind of reference and we're all like, "Oh, my God." And then this world opens up of the beauty that you can make out of the mundane. That conversation felt like a turning point of how you should be exploring the world of what you can say with what you do.

JJ: Yes, I totally agree. Random tangent-

KH: Yes, please.

JJ: ... before we get to the next...

KH: Uh-huh?

JJ: About Hermès, someone that I'm friends with was telling me that there is this department where they will make one-off things.

KH: Oh, yeah. Petit H.

JJ: Wait, what is it?

KH: Petit H.

JJ: Yes.

KH: Oh, my God. It's incredible.

JJ: Wait, have you heard the story about the prince that eats an apple every day, so he had Hermès make a case-

KH: Stop.

JJ: ... that would fit a single apple.

KH: I saw the apple case. I didn't know that was the story. Oh, my God. I love that.

JJ: Isn't that-

KH: That is the most incredible project collection. It's like the apex, as Hermès always is, of upcycling, of creativity, of randomness. It's incredible, the things that they do.

JJ: It's random. It's gorg.

KH: It's like a six-foot tall giraffe out of leather that obviously I need in my living room.

JJ: Of course.

KH: The idea that someone showed up to work and was like, "I've got all these beautiful scrap materials, what am I making out of this?" And was like, "Ah, a six-foot tall giraffe." Obviously.

JJ: No questions asked.

KH: Yeah. That's what I'm doing with my power today.

JJ: How did you meet your friend?

KH: At Ralph Lauren.

JJ: Amazing. It's amazing. What is your latest cultural obsession?

KH: Ooh. We just started watching this show called Bodkin.

JJ: What is it?

KH: Bodkin. B-O-D-K-I-N.

JJ: What?

KH: It's on Netflix.

JJ: What is it about?

KH: It's about this guy. Oh, my God. It ties all your worlds together. It's about this guy who's making a podcast. It's supposed to be a true crime podcast, which I also love. I love a thriller, a twisty story. He goes to this little town in Ireland, it's one of those quintessential tiny, isolated places, trying to solve this old murder. So, it dives into the weirdness of any tiny town and the characters, it's fascinating.

JJ: We should all get obsessed with the show?

KH: Yes.

JJ: And then the last question is a three-parter. What should everyone read, watch, and listen to, to consider themselves cultured?

KH: To consider yourself cultured? That's a lot of pressure. What should you read? I want to read more biographies. And I think that is a way to make yourself a bit more cultured, getting in someone else's head and someone else's perspective. I've been reading The Four Agreements, but I still love a total trash, twisty thriller. I started reading Lucy Foley. Have you seen these books?

JJ: I don't know who that is.

KH: I found one in an airport and now I'm obsessed with her. Every story is this glamorous party, basically, in some faraway, amazing place. All these people come, it's like a hotel, a group of friends, and they've all got these little secrets and then somebody dies, of course, because that's how that always works, and unwinding what happens and who everyone actually is.

JJ: Oh,I love.

KH: Yeah.

JJ: Amazing.

KH: Deep and dark.

JJ: That's what we should read.

KH: That's what you should read.

JJ: What should we watch?

KH: We've been digging back into Anthony Bourdain, old Anthony Bourdain.

JJ: Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.

KH: It's still good. It's so good.

JJ: So good. And listen to?

KH: Have a Brat Summer. That. I've listened to a lot of her. But also, my husband is a painter and his mentor was a huge part of his life, and they always listened to Buena Vista Social Club when they were working. You have to listen to it. Have you heard them before?

JJ: No, I have not.

KH: It's this Cuban band. They got put together in the '90s to have a resurgence of traditional Cuban music. The flavor of it is so specific. And the vibe, you can just listen to that while you're working all day long. It's got that flow-state feeling to it. It's incredible.

JJ: Amazing.

KH: It makes you want to go out and find a tiny bar and dance.

JJ: Oh, I love to dance. Yeah, I think I do.

KH: I want to take a dance class...

JJ: Oh, that's...

KH: ... ballroom dancing, a nice dancing. But that would be...

JJ: They're really fun to do, actually.

KH: Yeah? Have you done one?

JJ: I did one. I did. I was about 12 and...

KH: Oh.

JJ: I know. It was so precious. It was for summer camp, actually.

KH: I love that.

JJ: We went to a ballroom class. They taught us a lot of different things. They taught us how to waltz. They taught us to tango.

KH: Wow.

JJ: And they taught us salsa.

KH: Wow. Oh, my gosh.

JJ: Yeah.

KH: 12-year-old Jalil salsa-ing, I love that.

JJ: The only thing I remember how to do is the waltz, because it's the simplest thing in the world.

KH: A square, right?

JJ: It's only a square. I can waltz like no one's business.

KH: Beautiful.

JJ: Everything else, I don't know. Kate, thank you so much for being on here. It's been amazing.

KH: Thank you so much. This was so much fun.

JJ: Thank you, it was fun.

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