27 - Scaling Smart: Real Estate Strategies with Jeb Smith

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What's up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Loop It In, the Door Loop podcast, where we pick the brains of experts in property management, real estate, and investing.
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Hey everyone, it's Galena Rubin, property management expert with DoorLoop, and I will be your host for today.
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We will be joined by Jeb Smith, a real estate broker associate with over 18 years of experience in Orange County, California.
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You can find Jeb on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram for some really valuable insights regarding real estate.
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He has over 100,000 accumulated followers and subscribers.
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Also, he has a course that teaches first-time homebuyers everything they need to know.
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If you're thinking of getting into real estate, you need to check it out.
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Jeb, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.
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Thank you for having me on.
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First off, I appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to talk to me.
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So I've been in the business about 20 years.
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I originally started on the mortgage side back in 2002.
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Over time, my career changed.
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The past changed.
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And in about 2012, during this whole time, I was doing both real estate and mortgage a little bit.
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and then kind of transitioned 100% into real estate in early 2012.
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And that's been my primary focus for the better part of the last 11 years.
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From that, I've been able to, you know, you talked about some of my social channels and that sort of thing.
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Those channels are really about educating buyers, sellers, investors, actually a lot of other real estate agents and mortgage professionals watch them as well.
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And it's really just about providing guidance, providing, you know, updates on what I see out there in the market in order to help, you know, both sides, if you will, become, you know, better at the home buying process, selling process, as well as those agents that are kind of going through the same things that I'm going through.
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through at that time.
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What are some key steps that homebuyers should take to prepare for a home buying process?
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Yeah, I mean, I think the most important one, and it's often talked about, but overlooked in many ways, because people, what I've found is that when homebuyers get the bug to start looking at houses, they do exactly that, right?
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They start to look at houses, they start on Zillow, they start on Redfin, they go out and see open houses, and they haven't really started with the basics of, you know, really creating a budget to start with to see where they kind of fall with regards to what they're able to afford in a monthly payment.
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But more importantly, talking to a mortgage professional, going through the process.
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And with that, just not just having a conversation on the phone, but providing documentation, like going through the full process.
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It's a little bit, it can be, it can require extra steps.
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It can require a little bit more time, but gathering documentation, submitting it to a lender, Letting them review it all and say, Hey, listen, you're, you know, based off the information you provided, this is what you're able to afford.
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And then you can kind of look at your budget and say, okay, well, based on my budget that fits and we can start shopping for homes in that price range, or maybe.
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that's too much for your budget.
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And you know that, hey, I'm not able to go with that number.
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I'm not comfortable with that number.
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What can I get based on this payment?
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And then the lender can work backwards and kind of give you an idea of where you're going to be.
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Because otherwise, if you start looking at properties, you get this idea of what the property you're going to buy is in your head.
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And real estate's an emotional process.
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And people often buy emotionally.
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They justify logically.
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And this is one of those times when If you can not put the cart before the horse, if you will, and just make sure you kind of go in these steps, it'll be a much better process and you won't have the anxiety and a lot of the things that come along with the home buying process.
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Yes, I absolutely agree with that.
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For someone looking to buy and rent in the future, what are some tips for them to consider when evaluating the rental market in the future?
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Yeah,
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I mean, buying and or renting, right?
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It's kind of one of those things that you have to decide what's right in your life.
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My whole premise when I talk about the home buying process is that, you know, when people say, should you buy or should you wait?
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It's where are you in your life?
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Are you at that point where you're stable with job security, relationship security?
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You're talking about the idea of having kids or maybe you've had a kid and you're thinking of having more and you're looking to build that foundation.
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And in that case, the next step is probably trying to find a residence that you can be in for an extended period of time to lay that foundation.
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And in that case, buying is probably But if you're somebody that's early in your career, you don't know where you're going to end up, you're climbing the ladder, so to speak, and you know that that's going to take you in different areas, different cities or whatever, then renting is probably the better option.
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There's no right or wrong answer to each his own.
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I can see a path for both, but there is...
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a statistic that people need to be aware of.
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And that's that homeowners have a 40 times greater net worth than those of renters, but it doesn't happen immediately.
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It takes time.
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And that's because, you know, real estate is a long-term game.
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So if you're thinking of buying in the current environment, I think you need to have that five, seven, 10 year type horizon or timeline rather, so that, you know, you're not in a position where you're trying to sell in two or three years.
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And it's not because the market's going to crash or anything crazy, but you just realize, When you're buying your property and you've only been in it a couple of years, the cost to sell that property and that sort of thing are typically higher than what you've paid down in principal balance in a lot of ways with the commissions and everything involved to sell than it is worth it in many ways, unless you're going to keep it as a rental, which a lot of people do, and that can benefit you in other ways.
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But that's really the advice in talking to buyers and sellers.
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I think just find out the path, where you're trying to go, and go there and stop trying to pick tops or bottoms or highs or lows and rents and just do where you are in your life and try to make the best fit for yourself at that time.
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This is gold for all of you listening and watching out there.
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This is really good information.
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So another question, what is the best way for home buyers to navigate the competitive real estate market and make strong offers on desirable properties?
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You know, work with people that understand the business.
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You know, real estate is the barrier to entry is very, very low.
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It's very easy to get into real estate.
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It's, you know, a couple classes here and there, take a test and you got a license and you can have zero education and you can be a realtor, so to speak, because you've paid your national dues and that's your designated title now.
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So there's a lot of realtors, but there's not a lot of professionals.
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And And so I think you've got to differentiate between the professionals and the realtors.
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And that can come by asking the right questions, by getting referrals of people that have been through the process, that you trust, that that can guide you and answer the questions.
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And really, that's where it starts.
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And just because somebody's only been in the business a couple of years doesn't mean they don't have the knowledge of somebody that's been in the business 15, 20 years.
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I mean, education right now is so easily available and you can do it at any time.
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And I mean, experience is always one of those things that you can't duplicate by reading and that sort of thing.
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But you know, there are agents that are newer, that are on teams, that have been able to take learning, you know, exponentially, the growth of learning up so fast because they're on these teams and able to build.
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So, you know, you don't have to find the person that's been in the business 20 years like myself.
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Find somebody that you're comfortable with, that you like to work with, that you feel like can guide you through that process.
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But when it comes to writing offers, I mean, there's a couple of different strategies depending on the type of markets you're in.
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I which means there's less inventory than there is buyer demand.
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And so in those markets, it's more competitive, multiple offers.
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So you have to do things to differentiate your offer in many ways in order to stand out.
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And in 20 years of selling real estate, I mean, one of the questions that comes up often when I'm sitting at a table talking to a seller, I ask them, what's important to you?
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Nine times out of 10, price is the answer.
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Now it can go beyond that, but price is always number one.
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So if you're making offers in this market, I can't tell you how to price a property or what price to offer on a show like this.
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But what I can tell you is none of the other stuff that you decide to do in your offer matters really, unless you're competitive on the price to start with.
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So the price needs to be competitive.
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If you're in the range to start with, then there's some other things that you can do to differentiate yourself like timeframes on contingencies and escrow periods and down payments and what you ask the seller to pay or not.
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not pay, buyer commissions are kind of in the limelight right now, how that's negotiated.
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There's a lot of different nuances to it, and that's why it's important to make sure you're working with somebody that can explain this to you so that you feel comfortable when you're making your offer.
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But we could do a whole episode on that.
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That's for sure.
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So going off of that, what would you say is something that people don't think about when they're purchasing that you think is important?
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You know, I think a lot of...
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Buyers only look at the costs that are involved when they're buying a home.
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So for example, you're buying a home.
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You know that, hey, I'm putting 20% down, whatever the number is.
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I know I've got closing costs.
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So you look at your account and you go, well, I got the 20%.
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I got enough for closing costs.
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It doesn't really leave me with a lot in my bank account, but I can make this happen.
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And then you get in the property and you realize that, oh, wow, I didn't know that this needed to be replaced or this needs to be done or whatever.
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something happens, there's a leak or whatever, and you're kind of in this position where it's like, whoa, I didn't realize all the costs involved.
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I didn't realize all these things were going to happen.
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HOA dues go up higher than what you thought, depending on when you bought the property.
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Maybe the HOA gets an assessment.
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I mean, there's all these little nuances that can happen in a transaction.
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And over a long period of time of selling real estate, most of the time it doesn't happen, but it can.
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And you need to be in a position where you are comfortable not only with the monthly payment but comfortable with the idea that things could arise and that you're in a position to have money to reconcile whatever it is that's going wrong.
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And I think there's too many people at the moment just based on conversations that I've had and comments that I get on different videos that just have enough money to get in and aren't thinking down the road.
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And I think it's important to budget accordingly so that you're not putting yourself in a position where you're going to fail.
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Yeah, so always, always, always budget, plan ahead.
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And a really good example is investors buying investment properties with the idea that, hey, this property cash flows.
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Okay, it cash flows because you haven't factored in replacement costs.
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You're not setting aside replacement costs every single month out of what's going there to replace replacement the roof down the road or the water heater or the things that are going to break on that property.
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So yeah, it looks like it's a cashflow property, but once you start factoring in the expenses of things that are going to have to be replaced at some point, maybe it's not the investment that you thought it was.
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And so I know we're talking to a lot of investors on a podcast like this.
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And so you gotta factor some of these unknown things in It's not pretty and it's things we don't want to think about.
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And hopefully you never have to do it and the money can come back to you, but you should be budgeting for it.
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Yeah, for sure.
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From your experience, can you share a memorable success story or a challenging experience?
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Memorable success stories.
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I have a lot.
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Just over the years, I've been able to help a lot of people get into property in competitive environments over the last couple of years when the markets were absolutely crazy.
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I was able to get clients into properties.
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We weren't waiving all the contingencies and doing all the crazy things that you heard about online, but You know, being able to negotiate, I've been able to negotiate, you know, the highest I've ever done is a $72,000, $73,000 repair request on a property.
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And we're talking a property just over a million bucks.
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So it's not like, you know, it was a $5 million property.
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It was, you know, pretty substantial amount for things that, you know, depending on how you looked at it, weren't that big of a deal.
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So big amounts there.
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On the flip side, I guess the struggles are, that I'm facing, that a lot of agents are facing at the moment is just the lack of supply and having to help buyers understand the idea of being patient in environments like this, not making irrational decisions to just buy a property, to buy a property that, you know, it sucks to wait when you're excited about the process and you're ready to buy.
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And then month after month after month, there's just not a home that pops up.
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And I'm experiencing a lot of that right now.
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I have buyers that are ready.
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to make offers, they're pre-approved, they're solid buyers, large down payments, and we just can't find what they're looking for.
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And whenever we do make an offer, there's multiple offers and it's, you know, they just decided, well, I'm not even, I'm not going to go through this.
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So it's, that's the struggle.
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And I think it's one of those things that there's no easy fix for it.
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It's just one of those things you're just going to have to kind of work through.
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But as agents, we all deal with it.
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We deal with different things.
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The last couple of years, the struggles were that homes were just selling too quickly and that if you had a buyer, there was plenty of property, but it was all selling very fast and whatever.
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Now we have the opposite of that.
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We just don't have enough property.
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People aren't listing it because of where rates are and just different struggles.
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But it's, you know, all of it over time will correct itself.
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It's just a matter of being patient.
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Yeah, for sure.
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The next question actually ties into that.
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For investors listening and watching, where would you recommend them to go to find good deals in the market like today?
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You know, I think like anything else, connect with a realtor in your market.
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And, you know, like me, for example, like in my market or 20 years of selling real estate, I've been a part of different communities with real estate professionals.
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And, you know, I go to different events and different seminars and some of them are real estate related.
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Some of them aren't.
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But over time, I've developed a lot of relationships.
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And one thing about real estate, real estate is it's a relational business.
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I've built my business off relationships.
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And so I know people in real pretty much 50 states.
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And if I don't know someone, someone else does.
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And so it's always about asking the right questions at events like this and saying, you know, what's happening in your market and, you know, or what opportunities are you seeing and that sort of thing.
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So I think if, you know, assuming your agent does business in a similar fashion, connecting with an agent in your market and saying, hey, listen, are you aware of any opportunities?
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Where, you know, where is the growth happening?
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Where should, you know, who should I talk to?
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It's a good place to start.
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You know, you don't go in and type in something on Google about, you know, the fastest growing cities and that sort of thing, because by the time it hits there, a lot of that is already happened and it's already pretty well known.
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So you try to find the the people that are doing the business in these various markets.
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And if you don't know somebody, I mean, you could always reach out to somebody like me.
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I'm happy to put you in touch with other people that do business in other states, but there's always growth.
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There's always these emerging little markets.
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But I think if you're going to do the research on your own, you want to find cities that are growing, all right?
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Population-wise, you want to see cities where businesses, bigger companies are now setting up other locations, right?
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Because it's going to bring in workers where hospitals are being built, you know, brings in healthcare.
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All of these things, when you see redevelopment in an area and it's growing because, you know, they're having to grow because of the population that is growing, those are always cities because rentals are going to do really well in those markets because a lot of people that move there, especially you know, healthcare workers and, and, and, you know, doctors and all of these different occupations, they rent for, for a period of time before they do anything just to make sure they're going to stay there.
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And one is to figure out the cities and that sort of thing.
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And usually these are really good tenants because they have good paying jobs.
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And, you know, they're stable and that sort of thing.
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And so they make, make for really good opportunities for, for tenants down the road.
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And so there are definitely markets out there that are still like that.
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You know, rates are higher.
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these properties are a little bit harder to cash flow in some markets, but there's always opportunities.
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I'm sure you get this question asked all the time.
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Where do you see the market going within the next 12 to 24 months?
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I see a market really similar to the one that we saw last year.
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I think rates will come down.
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The economy is likely going to slow because of where the Fed has pushed the Fed funds rate.
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So that's going to slower growth in the economy, which is exactly what they're trying to accomplish.
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Inflation is likely going to come down, continue coming down, if you will.
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And so with that, I think over time, interest rates are going to come down some.
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What does that actually mean?
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Hard to say.
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I mean, I think, you know, I did a forecast earlier this year and I think rates, I think we could see a five in front of interest rates sometime in 2024.
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Does that mean 599?
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Does it mean 5.5?
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Hard to say, but I think we'll be in the fives at some point in 2024.
00:18:41.189 --> 00:18:48.678
With that, I think the following year, assuming the trend continues, which I think it will, you'll see rates go a little bit lower.
00:18:48.678 --> 00:18:52.903
And as rates move a little bit lower, you're going to see more inventory come to the market.
00:18:52.903 --> 00:19:00.451
And now the problem that I foresee is that even though we get a little bit more inventory coming to the market, most sellers are buyers.
00:19:00.451 --> 00:19:03.675
So they put one on the market, they take one off the market.
00:19:03.675 --> 00:19:05.637
So net inventory doesn't grow.
00:19:05.637 --> 00:19:10.564
And that is, in my eyes, the biggest struggle out there.
00:19:10.564 --> 00:19:14.892
Um, just because I don't know how you correct this.
00:19:14.892 --> 00:19:22.646
We've got, you know, a population growing, we've got more and more millennials buying properties that are kind of turning prime buying age behind that.
00:19:22.646 --> 00:19:27.295
You have a whole nother generation that'll be hitting prime buying age over the next 10 years.
00:19:27.295 --> 00:19:34.094
And so there's, there's growth in that market and the, you know, Everybody wants to be a homeowner, whether they say they do or not.
00:19:34.094 --> 00:19:35.736
People want to become a homeowner.
00:19:35.736 --> 00:19:38.259
And so the struggle at the moment is affordability.
00:19:38.259 --> 00:19:41.403
Housing affordability is still sitting near all-time lows.
00:19:41.403 --> 00:19:46.348
And so that puts a strain on the number of able buyers out there in the market, right?
00:19:46.348 --> 00:19:47.490
Everybody's a willing buyer.
00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:50.894
The able buyers, there's just less of them because of affordability.
00:19:50.894 --> 00:19:53.979
Rates coming down is going to improve affordability a little bit.
00:19:53.979 --> 00:19:55.701
I think there's a limit.
00:19:55.701 --> 00:20:05.193
to some extent on the upside of growth of appreciation to real estate, just because of that affordability metric, right?
00:20:05.193 --> 00:20:13.480
It's not back in 2020 and 2021 when rates were at 3%, 2.5%, you know, where affordability improved significantly.
00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:15.482
We're now kind of on the other side of that.
00:20:15.482 --> 00:20:19.826
Rates are going to be lower, but home prices aren't going to come down in any meaningful way.
00:20:19.826 --> 00:20:23.869
In fact, I think home prices will probably continue to go up 3%, 4%, 5% this year.
00:20:23.869 --> 00:20:30.377
And I think that's a conservative number looking So I think it's a market similar to last year.
00:20:30.377 --> 00:20:31.179
It's going to be slower.
00:20:31.179 --> 00:20:34.983
A lot of people are predicting a big jump in transactions.
00:20:34.983 --> 00:20:40.031
Last year, we sold just over 4 million homes nationwide.
00:20:40.031 --> 00:20:44.317
People are projecting somewhere in the 4.6, 4.7 number.
00:20:44.317 --> 00:20:48.739
I find that hard to believe where, where, where we are at the moment that we're going to see that big jump.
00:20:48.739 --> 00:20:53.586
So I think transactions stay on the lower side and it looks a lot like it did last year.
00:20:53.586 --> 00:20:55.548
It's just a little tougher real estate market.
00:20:55.548 --> 00:21:00.654
Uh, but people will continue to buy homes and there will be opportunities in every market.
00:21:00.654 --> 00:21:02.698
It's just, you know, buying when it's the right time for you.
00:21:03.118 --> 00:21:11.289
I've mentioned earlier that you have a course called first time home buyer, which is dedicated to helping people get their first property.
00:21:11.289 --> 00:21:13.873
What inspired you to create this course?
00:21:14.252 --> 00:21:20.421
You know, Over time, selling real estate, you just get the same questions over and over and over and over and over.
00:21:20.421 --> 00:21:26.548
And I could just continue that down for the next 10 minutes of how many questions just rattle off and they're all the same.
00:21:26.548 --> 00:21:27.769
So it's why not?
00:21:27.769 --> 00:21:32.035
So my YouTube channel initially started as this way to answer those questions.
00:21:32.035 --> 00:21:35.740
And what I found is all the answers are always out there.
00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:37.823
I wasn't new to answering those questions.
00:21:37.823 --> 00:21:39.223
The answers have always been there.
00:21:39.223 --> 00:21:42.387
I was just putting them in a different format on my channel.
00:21:42.387 --> 00:21:46.964
But even then, The information's out there and people continue to ask me the same question.
00:21:46.964 --> 00:22:07.982
So the idea was why not put them all in a place, you know, kind of walk people through the home buying process from start to finish, what it looks like, different areas from, you know, deciding whether or not to buy, whether it makes sense to buy, to the pre-approval process, to finding your real estate agent, to writing offers, to negotiating offers, to the escrow process, the whole thing.
00:22:07.982 --> 00:22:13.567
It all in one place, kind of in order so that if you want to learn what it is, it's a one-stop shop.
00:22:13.567 --> 00:22:40.070
It's not you you having to go okay what is the next step and then okay that's the next step searching for the next step watching the video and then getting it from all of these different sources you're getting it from one person kind of just a walk down a path and you know you and I can have the conversation but you and I can have the conversation and it would take a very, very long time to go into depth like I do in those videos that are, you know, that you can do on your own timeline.
00:22:40.070 --> 00:22:41.233
So that's really what it's about.
00:22:41.233 --> 00:22:43.137
Just kind of just throwing information out there.
00:22:43.137 --> 00:22:46.306
So the people that want to become educated, that want to know the process can.
00:22:46.625 --> 00:22:53.676
What I love about your YouTube channel is that you explain everything so easily that pretty much anyone can understand what you're talking about.
00:22:53.676 --> 00:22:59.946
And if you're listening or watching and you haven't yet seen Jeb's videos, you have to go check out his YouTube channel.
00:22:59.946 --> 00:23:01.750
It's absolutely amazing.
00:23:01.750 --> 00:23:03.333
Lots of valuable information.
00:23:03.333 --> 00:23:05.556
So definitely something to check out.
00:23:05.556 --> 00:23:13.088
We've also got a question about what kind of advice you would have to offer for people looking to buy this year.
00:23:14.114 --> 00:23:19.201
I think you have to, this isn't the advice people want to hear, but you got to control the controllables, right?
00:23:19.201 --> 00:23:31.917
Too many people are worried about what's going to happen tomorrow, what's going to happen next week, when are rates going to go down, when's inventory going to come to the market, when are all of these things that we can't control, when are they going to happen versus what can I control?
00:23:31.917 --> 00:23:33.660
Well, I can go get pre-approved.
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:35.682
I can continue to save money.
00:23:35.682 --> 00:23:37.885
I can work on my credit if it needs to be worked on.
00:23:37.885 --> 00:23:39.048
I can budget.
00:23:39.048 --> 00:23:40.108
I can do all of these things.
00:23:40.108 --> 00:23:46.960
I can buy a house if the right one presents itself, but I can't do that Until I've done all the other things that I should have done to start with.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.663
So control what you can control.
00:23:48.663 --> 00:23:50.708
Let the market do its thing.
00:23:50.708 --> 00:23:53.834
And maybe you'd buy a home in 2024.
00:23:53.834 --> 00:23:54.474
Maybe you don't.
00:23:54.474 --> 00:23:55.457
Maybe it's 2025.
00:23:55.457 --> 00:24:04.654
You know, just unfortunately, it's we don't know how some of these things are going to play out when they're going to play out.
00:24:04.654 --> 00:24:05.837
So.
00:24:05.837 --> 00:24:09.223
You know, all you can do is do the best for what you know.
00:24:09.223 --> 00:24:12.150
And I think that's the best advice I can give.
00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:12.911
I love it.
00:24:12.911 --> 00:24:17.339
Is there anything else that I missed that you would like to add?
00:24:18.001 --> 00:24:18.742
No, I don't think so.
00:24:18.742 --> 00:24:22.130
I mean, I think, again, it is real estate is long term.
00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:33.544
So a lot of people in the market today that are home buyers were either kids and or young adults when the last housing crash took place.
00:24:33.544 --> 00:24:37.547
So the memory is very, it's right there.
00:24:37.547 --> 00:24:39.689
It's like it happened yesterday.
00:24:39.689 --> 00:24:50.919
And so when people start thinking about real estate and they've seen home prices go up and they've seen all of this craziness in the market, they immediately go back to the last time that they remember anything like this.
00:24:50.919 --> 00:24:52.380
And then what happened afterwards?
00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:58.727
Just understand the market then was entirely different than the market now for many different reasons.
00:24:58.727 --> 00:25:04.353
But it's, you know, again, it is, the market's a crazy thing.
00:25:04.353 --> 00:25:07.436
And trying to pick the tops or the bottoms is a fool's game.
00:25:07.436 --> 00:25:09.439
Just buy when it's the right time in your life.
00:25:09.439 --> 00:25:11.681
Focus on the things you can control.
00:25:11.681 --> 00:25:12.842
Be comfortable with the payment.
00:25:12.842 --> 00:25:14.904
Be comfortable with the monthly payment.
00:25:14.904 --> 00:25:17.047
And have the longer term time horizon.
00:25:17.047 --> 00:25:19.470
And ultimately, you'll be in a good position.
00:25:20.066 --> 00:25:28.762
Thank you so much, Jeb, for giving our audience an insight on real estate and what they really need to know about buying properties.
00:25:28.762 --> 00:25:33.952
If anyone's interested to buy with you, how can they connect with you?
00:25:34.594 --> 00:25:39.059
Well, I'll give you my contact information or you can just reach out.
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:41.383
You know, again, you have my name, Jeb Smith.
00:25:41.383 --> 00:25:47.471
If you search that, you're going to see this mug, unfortunately, all over the Internet and my contact information is everywhere.
00:25:47.471 --> 00:25:52.618
So just, you know, you can call me, you can email me, you can find me on Instagram and direct message me.
00:25:52.618 --> 00:25:58.946
But either way, would love the opportunity to help guide you, to serve you and ultimately get you into a home.
00:25:58.946 --> 00:26:00.710
So if I can be of assistance, please reach out.
00:26:00.993 --> 00:26:04.116
We'll also add your information in the video as well.
00:26:04.116 --> 00:26:05.939
So everyone will be able to see that.
00:26:05.939 --> 00:26:07.420
Thank you again, Jeb.
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.121
All right.
00:26:08.121 --> 00:26:08.922
I appreciate it.
00:26:09.041 --> 00:26:09.501
We'll talk soon.
00:26:09.501 --> 00:26:15.208
Thanks for listening all the way to the end.
00:26:15.208 --> 00:26:19.172
Don't forget to give us a good rating on whatever platform you're tuning in from.
00:26:19.172 --> 00:26:21.795
And we'll be back soon with another new episode.
00:26:21.795 --> 00:26:23.195
We hope to see you there.
00:26:23.195 --> 00:26:26.459
And until next time, this has been Hoop It In.