WEBVTT
00:00:03.870 --> 00:00:44.829
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education; and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker.
00:00:40.579 --> 00:00:44.829
Now let's talk literacy.
00:00:46.990 --> 00:01:17.489
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And this week we are talking literacy, not any different than any other week today? Our topic-I just Donell chose it. I think it's a little in our state anyway. It's a hot button topic, and I'm I'm just looking forward to diving right in. So Donell will let you introduce it to us and get us going.
00:01:18.989 --> 00:01:38.088
Love to-I love that the mystery topic, as you say, yeah. We're going to dive into something that, for some people, may be controversial. For others, maybe not. It just depends. And I've got some past history with this because this topic came up when I was young.
00:01:34.009 --> 00:03:15.449
So, and I'm obviously quite a bit older now, so it's been around a long time, but it's third grade retention, and it's back again, folks. So there was a push many, many long time ago for third grade retention for various reasons, and it's back again under the topic of literacy and helping to improve reading outcomes. And so now there are 26 states, as Stacy mentioned, the state we're living in is one that recently has some third grade retention law of some kind on the books, or some sort of statement about third grade retention and what role it plays in literacy. So this ought to be a really interesting conversation, and we'll be referencing a few materials. But there's a lot out there, so I'm sure if you've Googled or taken a look. There might be other articles, and I'm sure you have some sort of background information. They share a lot of information, so I don't think you'll be out of the loop if you've read something else. We're going to start the conversation because I think the main question in looking at the literature and what's out there and available, and there are some good pieces. There's a meta-analysis that we'll address, and I think that that did a really good deep dive on the research. But I think the main question is, we're seeing this crop up. So if research is suggesting that intervention, and not necessarily repeating a grade, so that's what the research is saying, is that it's the intervention, not necessarily the repeating of a grade, that's what is improving reading outcomes should literacy policies focus less on a retention policy and more on guaranteeing early evidence-based intervention? And I think that's a great way to pop this conversation off. And Stacy, I'm going to go right to you. What do you think?
00:03:17.129 --> 00:04:04.169
Yes. How's that? I do think we need to focus more on early intervention, as you mentioned, this is a topic that's come up before, and I know Utah is not unique when a lot of states created accountability at the third grade reading level, and of course we understand the science that that decision was based on, but I think it's problematic to think that third grade is the end all be all. We really need to start with our resources and supports in pre K and perhaps before, right? And just retaining a student, I I know I think the intent is accountability, but it doesn't seem very effective.
00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:07.289
Yeah, Lindsay, how about you?
00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:49.209
I have a lot of thoughts about this. I've always been against retention, you know, especially above like first grader up. I guess I just think that is so. I just think that is so hard on the student, and there's no research that retention is going to do anything. You're just repeating the same stuff that you did the year prior. You know what's that going to do? But then reading through these articles really got me thinking because, like you said, Donell, it's the supports that come with it, and I was just thinking, gosh, it really the threat of retention.
00:04:44.889 --> 00:05:34.189
The good thing about the threat of retention, because really it's like a threat. I feel like the good thing about it is it really gets adults like a little fire under them, and they take it serious. And they make sure that they're providing the supports the students need. Now, I wish we could do that without the threat of retention, but then I'm also, you know, I don't know, Donell. I could go a lot of different directions because I'm also like waiting till third grade then is is like too late by then. Like we know we need them, you know, on track K and one, we need them on track. So why isn't the threat earlier? I don't. I don't know. I have a lot of different thoughts about it. I don't like the idea of making a student repeat a like.
00:05:30.589 --> 00:05:49.269
I think a third grader having to repeat third grade. That's devastating for them. I think a kindergartner repeating kindergarten not as big of a deal. Like they don't even, you know. It's it's. I don't think it would affect them as much. I guess
00:05:50.050 --> 00:05:52.509
the self awareness, right? Yes, kicking in.
00:05:52.990 --> 00:05:53.170
Yes.
00:05:54.310 --> 00:05:56.529
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I will say
00:05:56.769 --> 00:06:17.370
I had a first grader. I inherited a repeating first grader my first year of teaching first grade, and he was keenly aware that he had been retained. So I knew sometimes I think, yeah, exactly. And like to your point, Lindsay, I don't know that a kindergartner would be as tuned into that fact. But
00:06:18.689 --> 00:06:52.810
I have had a couple students recently who repeated first grade, but like both of the ones that I'm thinking of had moved. Well, one had moved schools, so you know, and then the other had just moved states. So the parents kind of used that as an excuse to have them repeat. And socially, they were both fine, you know, great, but I'm sure it just depends on the student. If it was my son who who was struggling severely, and if he had to repeat third grade, that would have been devastating.
00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:55.360
Because especially by third grade, you have your peers.
00:06:52.839 --> 00:07:07.110
You've been at that school for a few years, and everyone knows you. You know, everyone is going to know that you repeat. And I just think that is so hard on a little a self esteem that's probably already fragile because they're realizing that they're struggling.
00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:10.139
Yeah, yeah, with this core thing called reading.
00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:12.389
And Lindsay, you bring up a really good point. I kind of
00:07:12.389 --> 00:07:52.750
is there are some folks who are taking this and this information, this news, is harder for them, and it's more troubling for them for a host of reasons. And you brought up one of those, and that's that group of folks who are struggling with reading because they have a reading difficulty, and so their reading journey is going to be hard anyway. And now you add this threat, this looming threat of a retention, which, as you say, can complicate and add to the stress of a lot of these folks who realize this is already going to be a tough venture for us. We're already putting everything into it, and now you're threatening a third grade retention on top of it.
00:07:49.480 --> 00:08:21.290
And those were the parents that I heard from in my practice. So I got quite a few phone calls from parents who were saying,"Have you seen this? What do you think? What can we do? And of course, there's always a little-at least in our legislation-there's a little piece and some wording that says, you know, if you can prove that the student is receiving outside intervention or these various things, but again, that's the-it's so challenging for parents who are already in a difficult spot, and I don't know if people have thought that through well enough yet about how it impacts those students who have a reading difficulty,
00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:30.529
and it seems like in practice, though, from what I was reading and from other states, not very many are actually being retained.
00:08:30.559 --> 00:08:32.239
Retained, they too, Lindsay.
00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:37.399
Yeah. So I thought, oh, okay. So it is a threat. It is basically a threat
00:08:39.739 --> 00:09:36.048
because a lot of those laws have loopholes too, for and I think those are varied depending on the state. But I also think, Lindsay, you said it like basically. I think the intent is to hold the adults accountable, and when I I would want to ask the question which adults, because holding parents accountable without giving them resources, I think, yeah, there would be a population of parents who who know better and could do better, right? But then there are also many parents who do not have the resources, who perhaps are not themselves proficient at reading, and I think that would be damaging to the family unit as a whole, and then the way that that unit functions in society as well, and and honestly, even teachers, right?
00:09:36.198 --> 00:09:59.918
I think there are so many of us who, when we know better, we do better, but without systemic supports, I think that's problematic. I was talking with a principal just the other day, and our state has started giving projections to schools based on their data because this accountability doesn't kick in until do you remember the year doneell 2030? Maybe I can't.
00:09:59.999 --> 00:10:08.458
Remember for 2027, but they have started giving schools projections. And this one particular principal I was
00:10:08.578 --> 00:10:15.328
over 70 of her third graders would be retained, according to that population. Yeah.
00:10:17.340 --> 00:11:22.759
Well, what I need from parents, so and maybe this would be a plus side of having that threat of retention because what I need from the parents is I need them to get their child to school every day and on time, and that and you do have parents that are so relaxed about it, and it's especially frustrating when they their child is struggling to learn how to read and write, and like they don't see the urgency, and they don't maybe understand. They don't think first grade is that important, so that's it's okay to miss all the time. It's okay to sleep in. It's okay to take them on, like, and I'm I mean like extreme, like extreme, like lots of chronic tardies and absences, and that is like my pet peeve as a teacher. It's the most frustrating thing, and I'm like, no, it is not easy to get them caught up. So yeah, it's a big deal. Missing one day of our instruction on SH is a big deal when the child was going to struggle to retain the concept anyway, and so that's what I
00:11:22.820 --> 00:11:29.929
is if it would kind of push parents to be like, yes, like make sure your child is at school; it's important.
00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:39.529
But then again, I wonder if if it's it's not until third grade, if if you know we would still have this problem in kindergarten, first grade, where it's just kind of you know,
00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:56.950
yeah, we did have an issue at my elementary school where I worked last with attendance, and our principal got right on it. And that's a systemic support. She was calling students when they parents when they were absent one day, and we did have a high.
00:11:52.450 --> 00:12:08.940
We really increased the rate of attendance, and I think that's a very specific and very important piece of information. In fact, our most recent NAEP scores kind of alluded to the fact that attendance could be an issue with those as well.
00:12:10.619 --> 00:14:07.408
And that's interesting because the meta-analysis that we we looked at because we had one that took a very large meta-analysis and grabbed a bunch of research that had been done and conducted and kind of tried to see what some of that information was telling us. It was called the effects of grade retention in grades K through 12: a rapid review of the literature. It was an educational research review, and basically, some of these things that you two are bringing up came out when they started really going in on the data and they started looking at some commingling effects, and that was absenteeism, high absenteeism for a lot of these students that were eventually retained? That those were one of the factors, and said what what could we have done better to maybe address that challenge rather than this threat of retention that came down the line, but rather educating folks about how important it is to be in class every day. So that would be their parents to know to bring them and how important the early years are, but let's address this k1 two thing that keeps coming up because I think it will keep coming up. And the Education Week article we read one in there as well. There was a Fordham Institute piece that was done on third grade retention, and it came up there as well, talking about the fact that we're looking at third grade. And Stacy, you brought up the fact that that seemed to be our focus was look at the third grade and say, okay, how did we do? But rather, what we're finding the data is telling us k1 two is where we really should be pouring more emphasis, because those are good years to get some excellent skills down, and also to get some habits down around reading and writing, and yet they seem to be, as we focus, as we say, the retention on third grade. Then we start pouring on summer school for those kids that are looking at retention. We start pouring on intervention for those kids, and yet already we might say the boat has left the dock in many ways. So let's talk a little bit about this. What would it take for us to look at k1 and two, rather than an emphasis on third. And will we ever shift our eye from third because it means so many things? What do you think?
00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:10.889
I wonder. I wonder if it's third grade.
00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:21.230
Like, do you think it's not till third grade because of this myth that kids need more time? You know, it's just interesting that it's not until third grade that they're making that the cutoff,
00:14:21.860 --> 00:15:47.649
I think I know the reason, and I just committed a suicide when I made my comment previously. When I said, "Well, we know the why it's based on the research, I think it's because back when these laws began to be enacted, we had research stating that if a student doesn't know how to read by third grade, and those had developmental and instructional implications, right? Like they are more likely to not graduate; they're more likely to all of these things. And developmentally, we know that we have a very prime window of opportunity to instruct students how to read and. Kind of starts closing in third grade, and I think that's where the legislation came from. To be honest, it was like that's when the window closes. But when we're talking about how do we make this more effective, maybe we rewind. And I know we can't do that, but in our conversations with the people who are making these laws, many of them are not educators, as we pointed out. Maybe to highlight the research that says how critical those early grades are, and we're talking kindergarten through second grade, but I would add pre K because many students don't have access to that. And let's talk about the importance of pre K and kindergarten and what needs to happen in those grades for students to be proficient readers, and we need to intervene early.
00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:54.580
Okay, and so I'm I'm going to, and I think I've mentioned this before, my own personal experience with pre K.
00:15:54.759 --> 00:16:19.200
So having this last child that I knew was struggling, it looked different. By two years old, I knew there was something different with this individual in my family. This young person, we'd already been through some reading challenges with another child, but again, nothing was said to me, and it was just the right amount. And apparently, this student didn't need as much, and so they're on their way. And I wasn't given much information as the parent yet.
00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:43.000
Then I see this two-year-old, and I think, oh, this is even more difficult than there was for the student we thought had maybe a reading challenge. I don't know what I'm going to do, so let's go to preschool. We'll go preschool. We'll go early program. So I enroll in a really good preschool, and it worked really well for my other students, my other children, and take him in. And right away, trust me, we're identified.
00:16:40.009 --> 00:17:35.720
Definitely, teacher notices and does a home visit. So I'm I'm thinking this is great. I'm getting a home visit. This is exactly what I'm after, and in the home visit, I'm given a bunch of things that I know have no research. So it wasn't evidence based. It wasn't validated, and the individual who came into my home clearly hadn't received the type of training that they would have needed in order for that home visit to be really effective for someone like me, who was going to end up supporting a student who has a reading difficulty, and so I got a bunch of things like playing with shaving cream, and I got a bunch of things like help him put an alphabet book together where he has pictures that he likes. None of the things that were really going to make a difference. I didn't get that information, so that's critical. How do we how do we actually treat pre K like it's useful, valid instead of fluffy?
00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:43.029
I mean, maybe I'm going to get myself in trouble here, but I think a lot of times we treat that opportunity, and it really is an important one, like it's fluffy. What do you guys think?
00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:49.869
Well, same with kindergarten, and even in Utah, kindergarten is not mandatory.
00:17:45.579 --> 00:17:53.859
So I think a lot of parents don't realize that, but they think it's just kind of for fun.
00:17:53.980 --> 00:18:16.559
And I had plenty of kids in my first grade class that missed a ton of the kindergarten year because it was just like whatever, it's kindergarten, and that really affected their child. And sometimes I wish they could see that, you know. But yeah, that's so. I'm just like, gosh, let's focus on kindergarten maybe before even pre-K. But yes to all of it. Yes to all of it. But
00:18:16.890 --> 00:19:02.309
well, and I think we need to look at licensure too, right? So pre-K teachers are not prepared in the same way that elementary school teachers are. Exactly, there are many similarities. I know. I mean, I'm at a university that has both, and we prepare teachers to teach early childhood, no matter the grade. But I think there is a good place to start, and maybe a focus on things that, I mean, like oral language is so critical. And as you were talking, Donell and I'm, I want to ask both of you this question because you've had children who've struggled. And Donell, you already said you knew at two years old that your youngest was significantly
00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:03.720
different.
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.690
Different, Lindsay.
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:12.809
Did you notice that at those ages in your son, or and and what did you notice? I guess would be the other question.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:51.789
Yeah, it. This is hard because my son also had some unusual, unique medical things going on at the same time, so but like for sure, when we started like preschool age, I can say about the well, and his his language was delayed, but then he caught up, and his language was fine. But like three, when he was three and doing preschool, I could see a huge difference from my other kids, where I was like, "Wow, why is it so hard for him to learn the alphabet? Like my other kids didn't struggle with this. We're like working and working, and it's taking him forever to learn the names and the sounds.
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.640
Donella, what did you notice with your son?
00:19:55.779 --> 00:21:01.529
Yeah. So had I, I wish someone had told me. Yeah, that could. Be adorable, but can also be a sign of something, and it was mispronunciations, and not just a few. And so he had isms. We called them his isms, right? Because he was doing it so often, but that was a sign, and and that was one thing right away very different from my other three children. So he didn't have delayed speech at all. In fact, quite a talker, everything else, because if people would say that to me, well, was his speech delay? He didn't have the delay in speech, but listened to what he was saying. That was a tip off for me, and I didn't even know. And another one was, as Lindsay, as you say, they introduce letters, and they may just introduce one or two. I mean, it isn't rigorous, but he couldn't hang on to one or two. And you know, they do A for two weeks, and I'd ask him pop up that letter, and he'd be at a loss. And this is a kid who otherwise is telling very involved stories and has a an extensive vocabulary, and yet comes to looking at a letter, and he can't remember the name of that letter. That's that is that you know that as a parent.
00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:21.650
As a parent, you're saying to yourself, "This is not a good sign if it's this difficult and challenging. These are some of the basics that your student needs to know. And here's the thing: he may have been two, but even he knew, and he wasn't really enjoying preschool for that reason. And I remember the home visit was more about we wanted to feel more comfortable.
00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:26.029
Like I said, it was more warm, and it was more when when we were in distress academically.
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:48.759
This was a precursor, and we knew it. We all knew it. Teacher knew it. I knew it. I think little guy knew it, and we didn't get anything really of value of help. Interestingly, what I did get was reinforcement. Oh, look at all the books you have in your home! Oh look, he has an extensive library in his own room. Oh look, he already has the alphabet up lining his bedroom.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.339
In fact, there were two. We had one that I made, one that he made. I mean, it didn't matter
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:59.470
is it didn't matter how many of those we made. I wasn't going to do it, but that's the advice I was getting.
00:22:01.299 --> 00:22:12.809
For over 40 years, Reading Horizons has helped educators build strong literacy foundations for students. Now with Ascend, they're supporting every learner and every tier
00:22:13.349 --> 00:22:34.880
Ascend Mastery, a comprehensive pre-K through 5 core literacy program, and Ascend Focus, an adaptive K through 12 intervention. Learn more and explore how you can bring Ascend to your schools at readinghorizons.com/ascend.
00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:36.380
Implementations begin in the 2026 school year.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.250
And Lindsay, you said something important about the what what is very important.
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:56.500
And you you spend your time in these grades, Stacy. You spent your time in these grades too, and you teach people who will be. And so I know you guys are always very aware of the social emotional aspect as well as the academic and learning side. It all goes together. We know this.
00:22:57.549 --> 00:23:57.490
But what was really interesting to me is by the time the school finally realized, oh dear, we really do have a reading problem. Even though I had been in there since kindergarten over to his regular school, I'd spent time in his preschool, had home visit, go over to kindergarten, try to do a warm handoff to say, hey, look, this has been challenging, and I met with, hey, kids are all different. You know, they'll come to it this kind of a thing, and by the end of first grade, so I'm almost finishing out first grade. They want to move him end of first grade to another teacher in first grade. We'll move him classes because we think she can do a better job, but no one demonstrated to me that anyone knew what they were doing, and I resisted that. I resisted that movement, saying, "This is a guy who already feels pretty bad. So these are things that occur in schools, and when parents hear retention, someone like me is definitely going to say, "Right, my back will go up, my hair will raise on the my neck, because it brings about, "Do you really?
00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.319
What are you going to do to really help? I think that's what I'm asking, right?
00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:31.519
And and it sounds like it's kind of differs by state, but that's a good thing. Is that it's also put it's really putting that responsibility on the schools, and they're providing all this extra support. So it's like, how can we get all schools and school districts, the district leaders, to funnel that you know that support, the money, the time, the leadership, you know, can we do that without the threat of retention? Because that would be great, you know.
00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:33.829
But like, that's why I
00:24:34.130 --> 00:24:59.109
brought up the point about adults, and I'm really going to try to temper my remarks right here. So maybe pause for a deep breath. But when we're talking about accountability, so many times that accountability lands on the teacher, the parent. I'm in higher ed. How many times does the finger get pointed there?
00:24:56.230 --> 00:25:10.740
Even though you know we inherit the result of the case. 12 system topic for another time. I think the accountability needs to be on the school and district leaders. That's where the accountability needs to be.
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:16.319
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know what that looks like
00:25:16.410 --> 00:25:19.710
exactly, but that I feel like that strongly that's where it needs to be.
00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:35.839
Okay, so let's let's tackle the sticky widget that's going to come up, and what we're going to hear is maybe I've identified, and and I'm getting the message as leadership, but then I write back to you, I'm going to say, but it's expensive, and I have this budget that just keeps shrinking, and I have these needs that just keep growing.
00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:38.569
What do I do, and what do you have to say?
00:25:38.930 --> 00:25:46.720
Well, and that's where I think, yeah, like these these in our state, this law came directly from our governor.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:56.109
Bless his heart. But you know what? That's the cheap. That's the cheap, cheapest approach.
00:25:51.309 --> 00:26:11.849
Just retain, like. And I know there. To be fair, there are other things in the law that's not just retention, right? So clearly stating those individual plans are very important. That will help you know us focus on what individual students need.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:27:07.259
They're good things too. But honestly, to have a student repeat a grade is probably the cheapest solution when you think about even having tutoring or summer school, which have been proven to be effective, that high dosage tutoring is required, and I don't know of very many schools or districts that have that as a resource, and then also summer school. And I have attended not as a student, but I've been there, and I've been working with my students who are doing practicums in these settings. I am telling you right now, summer school is not academically rigorous, even if it's funded, right? So, and then we have paraprofessionals working with students that may or may not have the background information they need. They're working with the highest need students? I think systemically there are a lot of things that we could do.
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:32.240
You're right, Donell. It all comes down to resources and money, and maybe we-I don't know-do we incentivize those district and school leaders? I-I know they have in theory they have the highest level of accountability, right? And I know their salaries usually reflect that. Maybe that's where we start. I don't know. I don't know. I really liked
00:27:33.410 --> 00:27:35.569
Kimuno. Is that?
00:27:33.410 --> 00:27:44.740
I'm not sure if that's how you say Kimono Burke. She was interviewed in this article, and I really like what she said.
00:27:40.750 --> 00:28:16.829
Retention is not the goal of retention policy. She said the goal is for students to be identified early and receive the tutoring, the attention, the individualized reading plan to prevent a student from being retained. And then she said, like we said, retention policies are effective because they motivate adult behavior. And but I just want to be like, why? Why can't that be the norm without that? Why do we have to have this threat to do that? That's what we, you know, that's what we as education leaders. That's what we should be doing all the time.
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:37.130
Yeah, systemic. And I know when we had a whole episode on the Mississippi Marathon slash Miracle, but they're still as a state they have they're only 31% proficient in that grade level. So I know they've made a lot of progress.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:50.559
So maybe we can see some changes in the short term. But I love what you just quoted from Camiona Burke, who who has had a lot of influence on high quality input for these kind of situations.
00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:59.950
And so, Lindsay, what would you say to the hey, my budget's tight? Because you probably heard this before in your own setting. My budget's tight.
00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:04.799
Oh yes, and there's some things getting cut this next year that I'm not happy about. But I'm like,
00:29:05.069 --> 00:29:05.160
is
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.700
it like? Can we reevaluate where we're spending
00:29:08.789 --> 00:29:46.539
put your money where your mouth is. If you say literacy is important, but you have you're diverting a lot of funds to other things, then you know your your actions speak louder than words here. So, so I, you know, I'm not an administrator, so I don't make those kind of decisions, and I'm not as familiar. But as a teacher, as teachers, we always see these things come through that you kind of roll your eyes or like really, or, or you know, like isn't there a way? I mean, we we write plenty of grants. It seems like for different technology things, why can't we get a grant to help support our literacy initiatives? I don't know.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:30:08.400
I appreciated what Dr. Rivera, when we interviewed Grant Rivera, he absolutely in their school district, which by the way, their their scores are continuing to climb. So what they're doing. Seems to be working, but he also is very clear all the time. It's a long game, right? But it's a community effort. He did. He does focus in their district.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.390
They do focus on preschool. They do focus on parental supports.
00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:23.539
And he mentioned that they're not even going to talk about purchasing a curriculum, which is where a lot of funds go until their teachers are adequately supported with knowledge,
00:30:25.160 --> 00:31:19.859
yeah, I do remember that. Yeah, because there, like you say, there are a lot of places you could be putting your money. You're gonna have to focus. That's a great focus in training those teachers, making sure they're trained. And then it also made me think, you guys, if the system actually starts to work, imagine how much lighter the load gets. So we're always sitting in crisis mode, but if we actually were able to turn things around and say our preschool teachers are taught to have some of the skills that they really need to intervene on literacy, so that person who makes the home visit to my house gives me some really usable things and that alerts me to the fact of what do I need to keep an eye on, so I'm prepared when I go over to that kindergarten to have yet another teacher who's well trained. So imagine that lifting. I I I don't know that we've seen that kind of a lift, where you actually have all of it working. What would it be like?
00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:43.779
Yeah. Well, I think that's the idea behind MTSS and even RTI to precede it. Was that if we could get our tier one and those kind of resources in operating at optimal levels, then our resources can be funneled to the students who need them the most.
00:31:45.099 --> 00:32:15.509
Yeah, and that load becomes lighter. The Fordham Institute, that one article that I referenced, that was also included in some of what we read. He addressed the fact that what what is retention? What are retention laws really saying about MTSS? And he actually took a look at MTSS across the country and said there really isn't a good functioning MTS system wide within a whole district that he's ever seen, and I think that's pretty sad.
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:15.509
That's it is saying a lot. It
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:20.220
made me think about that. Yeah, I do remember reading that too, and I yeah.
00:32:21.299 --> 00:33:37.970
Okay, so we're not saying just to just to recap for folks, what we are saying is that we know a lot of things, and we know a lot of things that work, and we're talking about still getting those things in place across the system, so they can be as effective as we know they can be. So we we know these things. Lindsay pointed out that although we have these retention laws, a lot of students are not being retained because it does kick things into gear. We start to see the summer school effective summer reading. We start to see intense intervention for students who need it, and so that's another thing that's a part of this that comes into this, and so there are some good things that we can say about what happens when we put a fire or light a fire under the adults. But how do you think states can do a better job overall? What are some things that maybe we see states could do that would be as effective and helpful as, say, a retention program that might even do things better by going further down the stream, and so what I'm saying is, what about more mandatory looking at or screening for reading difficulties and differences, and taking a look at your data?
00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:48.700
Because I hear all the time about folks that say, "Hey, we don't take really good data where we're at, and I'm thinking, well, then how can you make a change? Yeah, I don't know how things are going to turn around.
00:33:50.470 --> 00:34:32.300
I don't want to be a reductionist, but other than resources, like Lindsay mentioned, reallocate resources, and and I know that's not easy, and I know it's not just as simple as oh, this is you know, let's all of a sudden send money here. But and a lot of that does involve grant writing and grant opportunities. But I and maybe this is reflective of the current position I'm in in the literacy landscape. I'm going to go back to increase knowledge for everyone, everyone, not just teachers. I mean, poor teacher.
00:34:29.269 --> 00:34:32.300
We've heard that forever, right?
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:42.820
And we are always refining and adding to our knowledge, but really provide supports so that happens. I also think you know.
00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:51.070
I I visited with a superintendent the other day, who admitted, and I was so grateful that that he did that.
00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:59.949
He doesn't really know much about literacy at all, and and so learning, having our leaders learn more about it, I think is.
00:35:01.889 --> 00:35:41.110
And and that's not yeah and oh sorry I'm I don't want to change the topic slightly but when we're talking about knowledge it includes knowledge of how English learners respond to this kind of legislation if their language in English isn't where it needs to be or isn't supported, or students who are experiencing homelessness or poverty, and the data bears out, they are overwhelmingly identified as students who are retained. So let's look at those things too, right, and increase our knowledge on how to provide supports there as well.
00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:44.230
Yeah, I don't think that changes the subject at all.
00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:53.710
I think it's right in the subject is the equity around these sorts of things, right?
00:35:48.070 --> 00:36:29.690
Yeah. Okay. Well, this has been for me anyway an interesting conversation. I I think there are probably others out there that will find this interesting too, and I think this is a stay tuned, because I think we're going to be getting more information. As as Stacy pointed out already, the law that we have, or the the retention things that we have on the books here in our own state, we've yet to see. So there will be information coming, and hopefully, folks are doing a lot of research and writing articles around this subject, so hopefully there's more conversation, discussion. We see how maybe this evolves. So I do think this is a there's more to come on this topic for sure.
00:36:30.170 --> 00:37:35.090
And stay the course on what we've already started on, right? Because the more we know, the easier those decisions are going to be made. Even I think about that preschool teacher Donell who visited your house, if she knew what needed to happen in the brain for your your child to be, you know, a proficient reader, her advice to you and resources would have been different than pull out the shaving cream and have him do letters and shaving cream, right? So, yeah, I think hopefully that's an encouraging note to just keep learning and stay the course as educators. Of those of us who are closer to the front lines and on the front lines, continue to build that knowledge. I think that's important. Lindsay, you're a good example of that. You already have data that bears out that you are systemically in your classroom doing things that that make a difference for students, and you continue to improve that. I have never, in my all my years knowing you, hearing you say anything like,"Yeah, I've got it figured out.
00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:38.119
I've got it all figured out.
00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:38.119
Work there.
00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:41.800
Always more to learn. There's always yeah can all do better, right?
00:37:42.489 --> 00:38:23.659
Yep. No matter the role you're in, so thank you for this conversation, Donell. It's a it is a lot to think about, and yeah, and I know that we think of students, and many of you are probably picturing students who this would affect as well. So we'll do our best for them by them, yes. And thank you for listening. Feel free to reach out and share with us about your thoughts and feelings about third grade retention. And maybe you're in one of the states that that has had this law or that will. And we're always happy to keep the conversation going. And we hope that you'll join us on the next episode of Literacy Talks.
00:38:26.989 --> 00:38:43.269
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.
00:00:03.870 --> 00:00:44.829
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education; and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker.
00:00:40.579 --> 00:00:44.829
Now let's talk literacy.
00:00:46.990 --> 00:01:17.489
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And this week we are talking literacy, not any different than any other week today? Our topic-I just Donell chose it. I think it's a little in our state anyway. It's a hot button topic, and I'm I'm just looking forward to diving right in. So Donell will let you introduce it to us and get us going.
00:01:18.989 --> 00:01:38.088
Love to-I love that the mystery topic, as you say, yeah. We're going to dive into something that, for some people, may be controversial. For others, maybe not. It just depends. And I've got some past history with this because this topic came up when I was young.
00:01:34.009 --> 00:03:15.449
So, and I'm obviously quite a bit older now, so it's been around a long time, but it's third grade retention, and it's back again, folks. So there was a push many, many long time ago for third grade retention for various reasons, and it's back again under the topic of literacy and helping to improve reading outcomes. And so now there are 26 states, as Stacy mentioned, the state we're living in is one that recently has some third grade retention law of some kind on the books, or some sort of statement about third grade retention and what role it plays in literacy. So this ought to be a really interesting conversation, and we'll be referencing a few materials. But there's a lot out there, so I'm sure if you've Googled or taken a look. There might be other articles, and I'm sure you have some sort of background information. They share a lot of information, so I don't think you'll be out of the loop if you've read something else. We're going to start the conversation because I think the main question in looking at the literature and what's out there and available, and there are some good pieces. There's a meta-analysis that we'll address, and I think that that did a really good deep dive on the research. But I think the main question is, we're seeing this crop up. So if research is suggesting that intervention, and not necessarily repeating a grade, so that's what the research is saying, is that it's the intervention, not necessarily the repeating of a grade, that's what is improving reading outcomes should literacy policies focus less on a retention policy and more on guaranteeing early evidence-based intervention? And I think that's a great way to pop this conversation off. And Stacy, I'm going to go right to you. What do you think?
00:03:17.129 --> 00:04:04.169
Yes. How's that? I do think we need to focus more on early intervention, as you mentioned, this is a topic that's come up before, and I know Utah is not unique when a lot of states created accountability at the third grade reading level, and of course we understand the science that that decision was based on, but I think it's problematic to think that third grade is the end all be all. We really need to start with our resources and supports in pre K and perhaps before, right? And just retaining a student, I I know I think the intent is accountability, but it doesn't seem very effective.
00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:07.289
Yeah, Lindsay, how about you?
00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:49.209
I have a lot of thoughts about this. I've always been against retention, you know, especially above like first grader up. I guess I just think that is so. I just think that is so hard on the student, and there's no research that retention is going to do anything. You're just repeating the same stuff that you did the year prior. You know what's that going to do? But then reading through these articles really got me thinking because, like you said, Donell, it's the supports that come with it, and I was just thinking, gosh, it really the threat of retention.
00:04:44.889 --> 00:05:34.189
The good thing about the threat of retention, because really it's like a threat. I feel like the good thing about it is it really gets adults like a little fire under them, and they take it serious. And they make sure that they're providing the supports the students need. Now, I wish we could do that without the threat of retention, but then I'm also, you know, I don't know, Donell. I could go a lot of different directions because I'm also like waiting till third grade then is is like too late by then. Like we know we need them, you know, on track K and one, we need them on track. So why isn't the threat earlier? I don't. I don't know. I have a lot of different thoughts about it. I don't like the idea of making a student repeat a like.
00:05:30.589 --> 00:05:49.269
I think a third grader having to repeat third grade. That's devastating for them. I think a kindergartner repeating kindergarten not as big of a deal. Like they don't even, you know. It's it's. I don't think it would affect them as much. I guess
00:05:50.050 --> 00:05:52.509
the self awareness, right? Yes, kicking in.
00:05:52.990 --> 00:05:53.170
Yes.
00:05:54.310 --> 00:05:56.529
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I will say
00:05:56.769 --> 00:06:17.370
I had a first grader. I inherited a repeating first grader my first year of teaching first grade, and he was keenly aware that he had been retained. So I knew sometimes I think, yeah, exactly. And like to your point, Lindsay, I don't know that a kindergartner would be as tuned into that fact. But
00:06:18.689 --> 00:06:52.810
I have had a couple students recently who repeated first grade, but like both of the ones that I'm thinking of had moved. Well, one had moved schools, so you know, and then the other had just moved states. So the parents kind of used that as an excuse to have them repeat. And socially, they were both fine, you know, great, but I'm sure it just depends on the student. If it was my son who who was struggling severely, and if he had to repeat third grade, that would have been devastating.
00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:55.360
Because especially by third grade, you have your peers.
00:06:52.839 --> 00:07:07.110
You've been at that school for a few years, and everyone knows you. You know, everyone is going to know that you repeat. And I just think that is so hard on a little a self esteem that's probably already fragile because they're realizing that they're struggling.
00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:10.139
Yeah, yeah, with this core thing called reading.
00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:12.389
And Lindsay, you bring up a really good point. I kind of
00:07:12.389 --> 00:07:52.750
is there are some folks who are taking this and this information, this news, is harder for them, and it's more troubling for them for a host of reasons. And you brought up one of those, and that's that group of folks who are struggling with reading because they have a reading difficulty, and so their reading journey is going to be hard anyway. And now you add this threat, this looming threat of a retention, which, as you say, can complicate and add to the stress of a lot of these folks who realize this is already going to be a tough venture for us. We're already putting everything into it, and now you're threatening a third grade retention on top of it.
00:07:49.480 --> 00:08:21.290
And those were the parents that I heard from in my practice. So I got quite a few phone calls from parents who were saying,"Have you seen this? What do you think? What can we do? And of course, there's always a little-at least in our legislation-there's a little piece and some wording that says, you know, if you can prove that the student is receiving outside intervention or these various things, but again, that's the-it's so challenging for parents who are already in a difficult spot, and I don't know if people have thought that through well enough yet about how it impacts those students who have a reading difficulty,
00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:30.529
and it seems like in practice, though, from what I was reading and from other states, not very many are actually being retained.
00:08:30.559 --> 00:08:32.239
Retained, they too, Lindsay.
00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:37.399
Yeah. So I thought, oh, okay. So it is a threat. It is basically a threat
00:08:39.739 --> 00:09:36.048
because a lot of those laws have loopholes too, for and I think those are varied depending on the state. But I also think, Lindsay, you said it like basically. I think the intent is to hold the adults accountable, and when I I would want to ask the question which adults, because holding parents accountable without giving them resources, I think, yeah, there would be a population of parents who who know better and could do better, right? But then there are also many parents who do not have the resources, who perhaps are not themselves proficient at reading, and I think that would be damaging to the family unit as a whole, and then the way that that unit functions in society as well, and and honestly, even teachers, right?
00:09:36.198 --> 00:09:59.918
I think there are so many of us who, when we know better, we do better, but without systemic supports, I think that's problematic. I was talking with a principal just the other day, and our state has started giving projections to schools based on their data because this accountability doesn't kick in until do you remember the year doneell 2030? Maybe I can't.
00:09:59.999 --> 00:10:08.458
Remember for 2027, but they have started giving schools projections. And this one particular principal I was
00:10:08.578 --> 00:10:15.328
over 70 of her third graders would be retained, according to that population. Yeah.
00:10:17.340 --> 00:11:22.759
Well, what I need from parents, so and maybe this would be a plus side of having that threat of retention because what I need from the parents is I need them to get their child to school every day and on time, and that and you do have parents that are so relaxed about it, and it's especially frustrating when they their child is struggling to learn how to read and write, and like they don't see the urgency, and they don't maybe understand. They don't think first grade is that important, so that's it's okay to miss all the time. It's okay to sleep in. It's okay to take them on, like, and I'm I mean like extreme, like extreme, like lots of chronic tardies and absences, and that is like my pet peeve as a teacher. It's the most frustrating thing, and I'm like, no, it is not easy to get them caught up. So yeah, it's a big deal. Missing one day of our instruction on SH is a big deal when the child was going to struggle to retain the concept anyway, and so that's what I
00:11:22.820 --> 00:11:29.929
is if it would kind of push parents to be like, yes, like make sure your child is at school; it's important.
00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:39.529
But then again, I wonder if if it's it's not until third grade, if if you know we would still have this problem in kindergarten, first grade, where it's just kind of you know,
00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:56.950
yeah, we did have an issue at my elementary school where I worked last with attendance, and our principal got right on it. And that's a systemic support. She was calling students when they parents when they were absent one day, and we did have a high.
00:11:52.450 --> 00:12:08.940
We really increased the rate of attendance, and I think that's a very specific and very important piece of information. In fact, our most recent NAEP scores kind of alluded to the fact that attendance could be an issue with those as well.
00:12:10.619 --> 00:14:07.408
And that's interesting because the meta-analysis that we we looked at because we had one that took a very large meta-analysis and grabbed a bunch of research that had been done and conducted and kind of tried to see what some of that information was telling us. It was called the effects of grade retention in grades K through 12: a rapid review of the literature. It was an educational research review, and basically, some of these things that you two are bringing up came out when they started really going in on the data and they started looking at some commingling effects, and that was absenteeism, high absenteeism for a lot of these students that were eventually retained? That those were one of the factors, and said what what could we have done better to maybe address that challenge rather than this threat of retention that came down the line, but rather educating folks about how important it is to be in class every day. So that would be their parents to know to bring them and how important the early years are, but let's address this k1 two thing that keeps coming up because I think it will keep coming up. And the Education Week article we read one in there as well. There was a Fordham Institute piece that was done on third grade retention, and it came up there as well, talking about the fact that we're looking at third grade. And Stacy, you brought up the fact that that seemed to be our focus was look at the third grade and say, okay, how did we do? But rather, what we're finding the data is telling us k1 two is where we really should be pouring more emphasis, because those are good years to get some excellent skills down, and also to get some habits down around reading and writing, and yet they seem to be, as we focus, as we say, the retention on third grade. Then we start pouring on summer school for those kids that are looking at retention. We start pouring on intervention for those kids, and yet already we might say the boat has left the dock in many ways. So let's talk a little bit about this. What would it take for us to look at k1 and two, rather than an emphasis on third. And will we ever shift our eye from third because it means so many things? What do you think?
00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:10.889
I wonder. I wonder if it's third grade.
00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:21.230
Like, do you think it's not till third grade because of this myth that kids need more time? You know, it's just interesting that it's not until third grade that they're making that the cutoff,
00:14:21.860 --> 00:15:47.649
I think I know the reason, and I just committed a suicide when I made my comment previously. When I said, "Well, we know the why it's based on the research, I think it's because back when these laws began to be enacted, we had research stating that if a student doesn't know how to read by third grade, and those had developmental and instructional implications, right? Like they are more likely to not graduate; they're more likely to all of these things. And developmentally, we know that we have a very prime window of opportunity to instruct students how to read and. Kind of starts closing in third grade, and I think that's where the legislation came from. To be honest, it was like that's when the window closes. But when we're talking about how do we make this more effective, maybe we rewind. And I know we can't do that, but in our conversations with the people who are making these laws, many of them are not educators, as we pointed out. Maybe to highlight the research that says how critical those early grades are, and we're talking kindergarten through second grade, but I would add pre K because many students don't have access to that. And let's talk about the importance of pre K and kindergarten and what needs to happen in those grades for students to be proficient readers, and we need to intervene early.
00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:54.580
Okay, and so I'm I'm going to, and I think I've mentioned this before, my own personal experience with pre K.
00:15:54.759 --> 00:16:19.200
So having this last child that I knew was struggling, it looked different. By two years old, I knew there was something different with this individual in my family. This young person, we'd already been through some reading challenges with another child, but again, nothing was said to me, and it was just the right amount. And apparently, this student didn't need as much, and so they're on their way. And I wasn't given much information as the parent yet.
00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:43.000
Then I see this two-year-old, and I think, oh, this is even more difficult than there was for the student we thought had maybe a reading challenge. I don't know what I'm going to do, so let's go to preschool. We'll go preschool. We'll go early program. So I enroll in a really good preschool, and it worked really well for my other students, my other children, and take him in. And right away, trust me, we're identified.
00:16:40.009 --> 00:17:35.720
Definitely, teacher notices and does a home visit. So I'm I'm thinking this is great. I'm getting a home visit. This is exactly what I'm after, and in the home visit, I'm given a bunch of things that I know have no research. So it wasn't evidence based. It wasn't validated, and the individual who came into my home clearly hadn't received the type of training that they would have needed in order for that home visit to be really effective for someone like me, who was going to end up supporting a student who has a reading difficulty, and so I got a bunch of things like playing with shaving cream, and I got a bunch of things like help him put an alphabet book together where he has pictures that he likes. None of the things that were really going to make a difference. I didn't get that information, so that's critical. How do we how do we actually treat pre K like it's useful, valid instead of fluffy?
00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:43.029
I mean, maybe I'm going to get myself in trouble here, but I think a lot of times we treat that opportunity, and it really is an important one, like it's fluffy. What do you guys think?
00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:49.869
Well, same with kindergarten, and even in Utah, kindergarten is not mandatory.
00:17:45.579 --> 00:17:53.859
So I think a lot of parents don't realize that, but they think it's just kind of for fun.
00:17:53.980 --> 00:18:16.559
And I had plenty of kids in my first grade class that missed a ton of the kindergarten year because it was just like whatever, it's kindergarten, and that really affected their child. And sometimes I wish they could see that, you know. But yeah, that's so. I'm just like, gosh, let's focus on kindergarten maybe before even pre-K. But yes to all of it. Yes to all of it. But
00:18:16.890 --> 00:19:02.309
well, and I think we need to look at licensure too, right? So pre-K teachers are not prepared in the same way that elementary school teachers are. Exactly, there are many similarities. I know. I mean, I'm at a university that has both, and we prepare teachers to teach early childhood, no matter the grade. But I think there is a good place to start, and maybe a focus on things that, I mean, like oral language is so critical. And as you were talking, Donell and I'm, I want to ask both of you this question because you've had children who've struggled. And Donell, you already said you knew at two years old that your youngest was significantly
00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:03.720
different.
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.690
Different, Lindsay.
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:12.809
Did you notice that at those ages in your son, or and and what did you notice? I guess would be the other question.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:51.789
Yeah, it. This is hard because my son also had some unusual, unique medical things going on at the same time, so but like for sure, when we started like preschool age, I can say about the well, and his his language was delayed, but then he caught up, and his language was fine. But like three, when he was three and doing preschool, I could see a huge difference from my other kids, where I was like, "Wow, why is it so hard for him to learn the alphabet? Like my other kids didn't struggle with this. We're like working and working, and it's taking him forever to learn the names and the sounds.
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.640
Donella, what did you notice with your son?
00:19:55.779 --> 00:21:01.529
Yeah. So had I, I wish someone had told me. Yeah, that could. Be adorable, but can also be a sign of something, and it was mispronunciations, and not just a few. And so he had isms. We called them his isms, right? Because he was doing it so often, but that was a sign, and and that was one thing right away very different from my other three children. So he didn't have delayed speech at all. In fact, quite a talker, everything else, because if people would say that to me, well, was his speech delay? He didn't have the delay in speech, but listened to what he was saying. That was a tip off for me, and I didn't even know. And another one was, as Lindsay, as you say, they introduce letters, and they may just introduce one or two. I mean, it isn't rigorous, but he couldn't hang on to one or two. And you know, they do A for two weeks, and I'd ask him pop up that letter, and he'd be at a loss. And this is a kid who otherwise is telling very involved stories and has a an extensive vocabulary, and yet comes to looking at a letter, and he can't remember the name of that letter. That's that is that you know that as a parent.
00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:21.650
As a parent, you're saying to yourself, "This is not a good sign if it's this difficult and challenging. These are some of the basics that your student needs to know. And here's the thing: he may have been two, but even he knew, and he wasn't really enjoying preschool for that reason. And I remember the home visit was more about we wanted to feel more comfortable.
00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:26.029
Like I said, it was more warm, and it was more when when we were in distress academically.
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:48.759
This was a precursor, and we knew it. We all knew it. Teacher knew it. I knew it. I think little guy knew it, and we didn't get anything really of value of help. Interestingly, what I did get was reinforcement. Oh, look at all the books you have in your home! Oh look, he has an extensive library in his own room. Oh look, he already has the alphabet up lining his bedroom.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.339
In fact, there were two. We had one that I made, one that he made. I mean, it didn't matter
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:59.470
is it didn't matter how many of those we made. I wasn't going to do it, but that's the advice I was getting.
00:22:01.299 --> 00:22:12.809
For over 40 years, Reading Horizons has helped educators build strong literacy foundations for students. Now with Ascend, they're supporting every learner and every tier
00:22:13.349 --> 00:22:34.880
Ascend Mastery, a comprehensive pre-K through 5 core literacy program, and Ascend Focus, an adaptive K through 12 intervention. Learn more and explore how you can bring Ascend to your schools at readinghorizons.com/ascend.
00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:36.380
Implementations begin in the 2026 school year.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.250
And Lindsay, you said something important about the what what is very important.
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:56.500
And you you spend your time in these grades, Stacy. You spent your time in these grades too, and you teach people who will be. And so I know you guys are always very aware of the social emotional aspect as well as the academic and learning side. It all goes together. We know this.
00:22:57.549 --> 00:23:57.490
But what was really interesting to me is by the time the school finally realized, oh dear, we really do have a reading problem. Even though I had been in there since kindergarten over to his regular school, I'd spent time in his preschool, had home visit, go over to kindergarten, try to do a warm handoff to say, hey, look, this has been challenging, and I met with, hey, kids are all different. You know, they'll come to it this kind of a thing, and by the end of first grade, so I'm almost finishing out first grade. They want to move him end of first grade to another teacher in first grade. We'll move him classes because we think she can do a better job, but no one demonstrated to me that anyone knew what they were doing, and I resisted that. I resisted that movement, saying, "This is a guy who already feels pretty bad. So these are things that occur in schools, and when parents hear retention, someone like me is definitely going to say, "Right, my back will go up, my hair will raise on the my neck, because it brings about, "Do you really?
00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.319
What are you going to do to really help? I think that's what I'm asking, right?
00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:31.519
And and it sounds like it's kind of differs by state, but that's a good thing. Is that it's also put it's really putting that responsibility on the schools, and they're providing all this extra support. So it's like, how can we get all schools and school districts, the district leaders, to funnel that you know that support, the money, the time, the leadership, you know, can we do that without the threat of retention? Because that would be great, you know.
00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:33.829
But like, that's why I
00:24:34.130 --> 00:24:59.109
brought up the point about adults, and I'm really going to try to temper my remarks right here. So maybe pause for a deep breath. But when we're talking about accountability, so many times that accountability lands on the teacher, the parent. I'm in higher ed. How many times does the finger get pointed there?
00:24:56.230 --> 00:25:10.740
Even though you know we inherit the result of the case. 12 system topic for another time. I think the accountability needs to be on the school and district leaders. That's where the accountability needs to be.
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:16.319
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know what that looks like
00:25:16.410 --> 00:25:19.710
exactly, but that I feel like that strongly that's where it needs to be.
00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:35.839
Okay, so let's let's tackle the sticky widget that's going to come up, and what we're going to hear is maybe I've identified, and and I'm getting the message as leadership, but then I write back to you, I'm going to say, but it's expensive, and I have this budget that just keeps shrinking, and I have these needs that just keep growing.
00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:38.569
What do I do, and what do you have to say?
00:25:38.930 --> 00:25:46.720
Well, and that's where I think, yeah, like these these in our state, this law came directly from our governor.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:56.109
Bless his heart. But you know what? That's the cheap. That's the cheap, cheapest approach.
00:25:51.309 --> 00:26:11.849
Just retain, like. And I know there. To be fair, there are other things in the law that's not just retention, right? So clearly stating those individual plans are very important. That will help you know us focus on what individual students need.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:27:07.259
They're good things too. But honestly, to have a student repeat a grade is probably the cheapest solution when you think about even having tutoring or summer school, which have been proven to be effective, that high dosage tutoring is required, and I don't know of very many schools or districts that have that as a resource, and then also summer school. And I have attended not as a student, but I've been there, and I've been working with my students who are doing practicums in these settings. I am telling you right now, summer school is not academically rigorous, even if it's funded, right? So, and then we have paraprofessionals working with students that may or may not have the background information they need. They're working with the highest need students? I think systemically there are a lot of things that we could do.
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:32.240
You're right, Donell. It all comes down to resources and money, and maybe we-I don't know-do we incentivize those district and school leaders? I-I know they have in theory they have the highest level of accountability, right? And I know their salaries usually reflect that. Maybe that's where we start. I don't know. I don't know. I really liked
00:27:33.410 --> 00:27:35.569
Kimuno. Is that?
00:27:33.410 --> 00:27:44.740
I'm not sure if that's how you say Kimono Burke. She was interviewed in this article, and I really like what she said.
00:27:40.750 --> 00:28:16.829
Retention is not the goal of retention policy. She said the goal is for students to be identified early and receive the tutoring, the attention, the individualized reading plan to prevent a student from being retained. And then she said, like we said, retention policies are effective because they motivate adult behavior. And but I just want to be like, why? Why can't that be the norm without that? Why do we have to have this threat to do that? That's what we, you know, that's what we as education leaders. That's what we should be doing all the time.
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:37.130
Yeah, systemic. And I know when we had a whole episode on the Mississippi Marathon slash Miracle, but they're still as a state they have they're only 31% proficient in that grade level. So I know they've made a lot of progress.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:50.559
So maybe we can see some changes in the short term. But I love what you just quoted from Camiona Burke, who who has had a lot of influence on high quality input for these kind of situations.
00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:59.950
And so, Lindsay, what would you say to the hey, my budget's tight? Because you probably heard this before in your own setting. My budget's tight.
00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:04.799
Oh yes, and there's some things getting cut this next year that I'm not happy about. But I'm like,
00:29:05.069 --> 00:29:05.160
is
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.700
it like? Can we reevaluate where we're spending
00:29:08.789 --> 00:29:46.539
put your money where your mouth is. If you say literacy is important, but you have you're diverting a lot of funds to other things, then you know your your actions speak louder than words here. So, so I, you know, I'm not an administrator, so I don't make those kind of decisions, and I'm not as familiar. But as a teacher, as teachers, we always see these things come through that you kind of roll your eyes or like really, or, or you know, like isn't there a way? I mean, we we write plenty of grants. It seems like for different technology things, why can't we get a grant to help support our literacy initiatives? I don't know.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:30:08.400
I appreciated what Dr. Rivera, when we interviewed Grant Rivera, he absolutely in their school district, which by the way, their their scores are continuing to climb. So what they're doing. Seems to be working, but he also is very clear all the time. It's a long game, right? But it's a community effort. He did. He does focus in their district.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.390
They do focus on preschool. They do focus on parental supports.
00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:23.539
And he mentioned that they're not even going to talk about purchasing a curriculum, which is where a lot of funds go until their teachers are adequately supported with knowledge,
00:30:25.160 --> 00:31:19.859
yeah, I do remember that. Yeah, because there, like you say, there are a lot of places you could be putting your money. You're gonna have to focus. That's a great focus in training those teachers, making sure they're trained. And then it also made me think, you guys, if the system actually starts to work, imagine how much lighter the load gets. So we're always sitting in crisis mode, but if we actually were able to turn things around and say our preschool teachers are taught to have some of the skills that they really need to intervene on literacy, so that person who makes the home visit to my house gives me some really usable things and that alerts me to the fact of what do I need to keep an eye on, so I'm prepared when I go over to that kindergarten to have yet another teacher who's well trained. So imagine that lifting. I I I don't know that we've seen that kind of a lift, where you actually have all of it working. What would it be like?
00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:43.779
Yeah. Well, I think that's the idea behind MTSS and even RTI to precede it. Was that if we could get our tier one and those kind of resources in operating at optimal levels, then our resources can be funneled to the students who need them the most.
00:31:45.099 --> 00:32:15.509
Yeah, and that load becomes lighter. The Fordham Institute, that one article that I referenced, that was also included in some of what we read. He addressed the fact that what what is retention? What are retention laws really saying about MTSS? And he actually took a look at MTSS across the country and said there really isn't a good functioning MTS system wide within a whole district that he's ever seen, and I think that's pretty sad.
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:15.509
That's it is saying a lot. It
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:20.220
made me think about that. Yeah, I do remember reading that too, and I yeah.
00:32:21.299 --> 00:33:37.970
Okay, so we're not saying just to just to recap for folks, what we are saying is that we know a lot of things, and we know a lot of things that work, and we're talking about still getting those things in place across the system, so they can be as effective as we know they can be. So we we know these things. Lindsay pointed out that although we have these retention laws, a lot of students are not being retained because it does kick things into gear. We start to see the summer school effective summer reading. We start to see intense intervention for students who need it, and so that's another thing that's a part of this that comes into this, and so there are some good things that we can say about what happens when we put a fire or light a fire under the adults. But how do you think states can do a better job overall? What are some things that maybe we see states could do that would be as effective and helpful as, say, a retention program that might even do things better by going further down the stream, and so what I'm saying is, what about more mandatory looking at or screening for reading difficulties and differences, and taking a look at your data?
00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:48.700
Because I hear all the time about folks that say, "Hey, we don't take really good data where we're at, and I'm thinking, well, then how can you make a change? Yeah, I don't know how things are going to turn around.
00:33:50.470 --> 00:34:32.300
I don't want to be a reductionist, but other than resources, like Lindsay mentioned, reallocate resources, and and I know that's not easy, and I know it's not just as simple as oh, this is you know, let's all of a sudden send money here. But and a lot of that does involve grant writing and grant opportunities. But I and maybe this is reflective of the current position I'm in in the literacy landscape. I'm going to go back to increase knowledge for everyone, everyone, not just teachers. I mean, poor teacher.
00:34:29.269 --> 00:34:32.300
We've heard that forever, right?
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:42.820
And we are always refining and adding to our knowledge, but really provide supports so that happens. I also think you know.
00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:51.070
I I visited with a superintendent the other day, who admitted, and I was so grateful that that he did that.
00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:59.949
He doesn't really know much about literacy at all, and and so learning, having our leaders learn more about it, I think is.
00:35:01.889 --> 00:35:41.110
And and that's not yeah and oh sorry I'm I don't want to change the topic slightly but when we're talking about knowledge it includes knowledge of how English learners respond to this kind of legislation if their language in English isn't where it needs to be or isn't supported, or students who are experiencing homelessness or poverty, and the data bears out, they are overwhelmingly identified as students who are retained. So let's look at those things too, right, and increase our knowledge on how to provide supports there as well.
00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:44.230
Yeah, I don't think that changes the subject at all.
00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:53.710
I think it's right in the subject is the equity around these sorts of things, right?
00:35:48.070 --> 00:36:29.690
Yeah. Okay. Well, this has been for me anyway an interesting conversation. I I think there are probably others out there that will find this interesting too, and I think this is a stay tuned, because I think we're going to be getting more information. As as Stacy pointed out already, the law that we have, or the the retention things that we have on the books here in our own state, we've yet to see. So there will be information coming, and hopefully, folks are doing a lot of research and writing articles around this subject, so hopefully there's more conversation, discussion. We see how maybe this evolves. So I do think this is a there's more to come on this topic for sure.
00:36:30.170 --> 00:37:35.090
And stay the course on what we've already started on, right? Because the more we know, the easier those decisions are going to be made. Even I think about that preschool teacher Donell who visited your house, if she knew what needed to happen in the brain for your your child to be, you know, a proficient reader, her advice to you and resources would have been different than pull out the shaving cream and have him do letters and shaving cream, right? So, yeah, I think hopefully that's an encouraging note to just keep learning and stay the course as educators. Of those of us who are closer to the front lines and on the front lines, continue to build that knowledge. I think that's important. Lindsay, you're a good example of that. You already have data that bears out that you are systemically in your classroom doing things that that make a difference for students, and you continue to improve that. I have never, in my all my years knowing you, hearing you say anything like,"Yeah, I've got it figured out.
00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:38.119
I've got it all figured out.
00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:38.119
Work there.
00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:41.800
Always more to learn. There's always yeah can all do better, right?
00:37:42.489 --> 00:38:23.659
Yep. No matter the role you're in, so thank you for this conversation, Donell. It's a it is a lot to think about, and yeah, and I know that we think of students, and many of you are probably picturing students who this would affect as well. So we'll do our best for them by them, yes. And thank you for listening. Feel free to reach out and share with us about your thoughts and feelings about third grade retention. And maybe you're in one of the states that that has had this law or that will. And we're always happy to keep the conversation going. And we hope that you'll join us on the next episode of Literacy Talks.
00:38:26.989 --> 00:38:43.269
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.
