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This is Lit Mix, a podcast about the books that challenge us.
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I'm Andrea.
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And I'm Rachel.
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We're friends who met in eighth grade and grew up to be a high school English teacher
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and a K-12 school librarian.
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On each episode of our show, we focus on one book, exploring why it's controversial and
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what makes it important.
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Today, we're discussing Nick Stone's young adult debut, Dear Martin.
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Everything can be taken from a person, but one thing, the last of the human freedoms
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to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
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This quote comes from Viktor Frankl, who was a Jewish Austrian psychiatrist and concentration
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camp survivor.
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An idea that the author wants the reader to wrestle with is how do you find the motivation
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to continue to do what's right, even when everyone around you looks at you and assumes
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that what you're doing is wrong, and even when doing what's right is the thing that
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gets you into trouble in the first place.
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Kat, I think choices in the moment and life choices are both themes that come up a lot
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in this book.
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So Dear Martin is Nick Stone's debut novel, it was published in 2017, and it was inspired
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by real events, including the 2012 murder of 17-year-old Jordan Davis, who was a black
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teen who was shot by a white man at a Florida gas station after an argument about loud music.
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Stone is also the author of other books, Odd One Out, Jackpot, and Dear Justice, which
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is a companion to Dear Martin, and we could talk about later.
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Dear Martin was a finalist for the ALA's 2018 William C. Morris Award, which is an award
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for a debut young adult novel.
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It was also an ALA 2018 top 10 quick pick for reluctant young adult readers and got
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a starred review from BookList.
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However, like so many of the great recent books that we're talking about, this book
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has been challenged in recent years.
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It was removed from the curriculum in Columbia County, Georgia, and I think it was removed
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because it talked about police violence and put police in a not 100% positive light.
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So I actually saw an interview with Nick Stone where she essentially said, you know, that's
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great that you can try to shield your children, Rachel and I, we didn't need to have that
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talk with our sons about how to deal with police, and that's our white privilege.
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But there are so many kids who have that talk with their parents who need to know that,
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you know, there are certain ways to act in order to save your life.
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And even following all those rules can still get you killed, which is a big part of the
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book.
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Doing the right thing with black skin might still get you in the line of extra scrutiny
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and even violence.
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Yeah, so that's how the book opens.
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It's called Dear Martin because the main character Justice starts writing a kind of like a journal
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of letters to Martin Luther King.
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After what he calls the incident, which is the opening scene of the book, he is trying
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to stop his ex-girlfriend from driving home drunk.
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And a cop comes onto the scene, sees these two teenagers struggling and immediately assumes
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the worst of justice.
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And he is assaulted by the police officer.
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He's handcuffed.
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Was he arrested?
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Yeah,
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He was brought to the station and arrested and then released.
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Justice is trying to do the right thing.
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He can't leave this girl drunk in a parking lot with her car and her car keys.
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He even considers taking the keys and just leaving her there and letting her parents
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come get her.
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But he also thinks what could happen to her here late at night all by herself.
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I can't even just leave her without the car keys.
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The incident that opens the book mirrors an incident that takes place off-stage later
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in the book, but is one of those stories that's circulating in the news cycle in Injustice's
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story.
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And it's a story of a young black man attempting to help an older woman who had gotten lost
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or something like that.
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And then he was also assaulted by police who assumed in that moment that he was doing something
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nefarious when in fact he was trying to help.
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So that's that question again.
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How do you continue to do what's right when because of the way you look, it's going to
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be assumed that what you're doing is wrong.
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And people are going to make that assumption of you.
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Why should you commit to nonviolence?
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It might be in Justices first letter to Martin Luther King, where he kind of talks about
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why he's writing to him and him in particular.
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It says I've been trying to figure out what you would have done if you'd been in my shoes
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today.
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I know you lived in a world where black folks were hosed and beaten and jailed and killed
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while fighting for equal rights, but you still managed to be like dignified and everything.
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How did you do that, Martin?
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How do I do that?
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So that is what Justice is struggling with throughout the book.
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And he wants to do the right thing.
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And he wants to be dignified and be a good person.
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But how do you do it?
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What does it mean?
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These are questions that every young adult has to face.
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The things that each person are facing is going to be different.
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But I think there's so much that any reader can get from Justice's exploration of this
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question.
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How do I remain dignified when I am treated unfairly?
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When people assume the worst of me?
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Do I return violence and suspicion and hatred for violence and suspicion and hatred?
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Because Justice wants to at a certain point, right, without spoiling anything in the book.
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There are moments in this narrative when he feels like returning violence for violence
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is absolutely the right thing to do.
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But the author doesn't leave us there.
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No.
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So what did you love about this book?
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Because I think we both really loved it.
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I love the portrayal of the teacher whom they affectionately call Doc.
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He's a black man, has a PhD, is their debate coach and teacher.
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I just love the way that he runs a classroom and allows kids to talk about topics that
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are difficult, talk about, well, topics that are controversial and hard.
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And I think he provides a model of civility and a model of maturity and a model of courage
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for the many wonderful teachers who continue to hold difficult conversations about really
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important things, even when they know they will probably catch heat from it from someone,
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whether that's parents or school boards or politicians.
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I think we've been seeing a lot of that in our world.
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And it's lovely to see a book that really foregrounds this need for conversation.
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Another thing I loved about the book is that it is framed as a conversation that Justice
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is having with himself and a conversation that he's having with Martin.
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There's a point at which Justice says, you know, maybe the right question isn't what
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would Martin do, but what am I going to stand true to despite whatever is coming at me?
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I loved SJ and Justice's relationship so, so much, which I know that's what you're
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going to say, but I just thought it was one of the cutest, geekiest, sweetest high school
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romances ever.
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Karly, I love them.
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You know, they were debate partners first.
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And so in a way, their relationship was based on conversations.
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And they just they talked to each other about things that really mattered.
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Justice had another love interest, Mellow, who is the girl from the opening scene.
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And their relationship in contrast seemed mostly physical.
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I remember what Mellow looks like, but not really anything she said.
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I was just going to say, I feel like Mellow was described as looking like a brats doll.
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Yeah, and I think there is a part later in the book where she does actually talk to Justice
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in one scene.
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I don't remember what the conversation is, but she's not totally one-dimensional, but
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she definitely she doesn't have much of a presence.
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We'll put it that way.
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And SJ and Justice, they could talk for hours on the phone and not realize that time had
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passed.
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And SJ is white.
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She's Jewish.
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And at one point early in their relationship, she apologizes to Justice for kind of like
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speaking for him in one of the classroom debates.
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And that was something that he really appreciated.
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So I don't know, it's just a really cute give and take between them.
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And A, I could see this relationship lasting through college, possibly beyond, who knows,
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high school sweetheart.
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But also I thought it's just a really good example to teenagers of what a great healthy
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relationship can look like where you're equal partners and friends.
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Equal partners and friends.
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And I love what Justice says to his mom.
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He's like, SJ makes me better.
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She makes me want to be better.
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She encourages and champions the best parts of myself that I like.
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Yeah, and his mom isn't very excited about this relationship, I guess, because she
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envisions him dating and eventually marrying a black woman.
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So SJ doesn't fit her vision for her son of who he's going to be with.
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But so at first he kind of hides it from his mom.
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But then at a certain point, he just kind of tells her, like you said, this is this
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is who I'm with right now.
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And we work well together.
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One thing else to note is and I don't remember who said this, but at least
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one person in the book said that SJ is not white white.
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She's Jewish.
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So do you want to say anything about that as the Jewish woman?
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The Jewish woman in the room on the call.
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And this is actually something that Justice brought up with his mom.
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He said to his mom, Sarah Jane's Jewish.
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Her people have suffered too.
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And she said, yeah, but you don't see Jewish on the skin, which I think is exactly his
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mom's exactly right.
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You don't see Jewish on the skin.
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People sometimes pretend that you can tell if someone's Jewish, but just by looking.
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But you can't.
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However, Justice also says when Justice says her people have suffered too.
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And then there are a couple of references in the book's book to forced migration and
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concentration camps and the fact that African-American people and Jewish people around the world
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share the distinction of being diasporic peoples, people who live in diaspora from an ancestral
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home that shared history of trauma can and has throughout history meant that Jews and
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blacks have been able to make common cause in the civil rights movement.
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And there is some reference to that.
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Sarah Jane mentions to Justice that there was Jewish involvement in the civil rights
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movement in the United States.
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However, I feel it's important to point out that Jews have participated in white privilege,
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a kind of shared history.
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The experience, the day-to-day experience of moving through the world is going to be
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different, but certainly attacks on synagogues and desecration of Jewish cemeteries and certain
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anti-Semitic attacks on the rise at the same time as police violence against black people
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continues unabated.
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It's probably time for thinking about joint civil rights movement again.
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And I also really liked there was one scene where the teacher doc visits Justice in his
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dorm room because Justice is a boarding student at this school.
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And I don't remember what the topic of conversation was, but Justice uses some kind of profanity
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in his conversation with the teacher and he immediately apologizes, but the teacher says,
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no, this is your space.
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Like I'm on your turf.
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That's quite all right.
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Speak how you will, speak how you feel.
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And I thought that was pretty cool.
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They were no longer in the classroom.
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They were in Justice's territory, his dorm room.
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Yes.
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That's another important thing that the book, I think, touches on this idea that young people
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have a right to their own spaces.
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Young people have a right to their own ideas.
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Young people have a right to their own voices.
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I just love that the teacher isn't going to censor the student and his authority is somewhat
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limited to the classroom and is in like a guiding role, but it's not an absolute authority.
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And this question of who has authority over kids is something that kind of comes up again
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and again at a certain point.
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His mother wants, Justice's mother wants to intervene and says like, no, don't answer
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their questions.
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Don't do this.
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Don't be like, mom, thank you, but I need to take over.
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I'm going to be 18 in three weeks and this is now my time to speak for myself.
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And at the same time, Nick Stone reminds us a few times that under Georgia law, justice
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as a 17-year-old could be treated in the criminal justice system as an adult.
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So there's a blurring of a line here where a system treats kids as kids when we're concerned
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about what substances they can buy or what movies and books they should have access to,
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but treating them as adults when they're coming before the law.
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Aside from Justice and Sarah Jane, there are some interesting side characters.
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Justice's friends and classmates.
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Do you want to start by talking about Manny?
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So Manny is Justice's best friend.
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Manny's father is an investment banker and Manny's mother is a psychologist.
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And Manny has lived the life of a wealthier black man in suburban Atlanta in Georgia.
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And Manny and Justice have a great relationship.
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In one of their very vulnerable conversations, Manny confesses to Justice that he's kind
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of afraid of black girls that he goes on to explain is because of the expensive private
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school that he's gone to because of the very wealthy lifestyle that he's had.
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He hasn't been around many black girls outside of girls in his own family and feels like
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he doesn't know how to talk to them.
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Think the thing you could say about Manny that would sum it up is that he is worried
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that he's not really black enough.
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He's hung out with a lot of white guys his whole life and that's not always so easy for
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him.
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So another character that I feel like we should talk about is Jared, who is one of Justice's
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classmates and Manny's friend, but not necessarily Justice's friend.
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Not at all.
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At least, and not after a certain point.
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Yeah, do you want to talk about Jared's role
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in the classroom discussion?
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Perhaps we really see what Jared is made
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of when he comes into class the day after getting deferred from Yale and he is upset.
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And the reason he's upset is that he's pretty sure that the reason he got deferred from
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Yale instead of accepted early decision is because he's white.
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And then he proceeds to make a series of assumptions about Justice and his acceptance early decision
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to Yale.
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And he makes some assumptions about his test scores and his grades.
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And this brings out a full-throated defense from SJ and it's quite a classroom event.
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The upshot of it is that Jared is pretty sure that he's better than some black guy who's
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going to get into Yale ahead of him.
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The scene is really useful, I think, for illustrating a conversation that I personally have seen
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take place many times on a prep school campus and raises the sort of essential question
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of how do you find equality in the admissions process when some people have had such better
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and more thorough preparation by the age of 17 or 18.
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The case that SJ makes is, you know, if you didn't have all these test prep courses, if
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you didn't have all high school teachers with PhDs instead of first-year teachers who quit
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after a year in tough city schools, if you didn't have parents who are constantly reading
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to you, then how is your SAT score stacked up against somebody else's SAT score?
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How is it even a fair comparison?
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Because the starting conditions are so different.
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And I think we do see Jared sort of take some of that in.
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Yeah, and Jared was the one in one of the first classroom conversations who insisted
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that everything is now equal in the United States.
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He pointed at Manny and Manny's family and look how well off they are because of his
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parents' hard work.
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And if they can be a Black family that has all of this wealth, you know, why can't others?
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So I mean, that's just like when we first meet Jared, he's like, oh, there's no racism
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anymore.
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I think that Jared, because of his friendship with Manny, is a really good example of how
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white people can both be friends with and care about the Black people in their life,
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and still participate in and perpetuate racism.
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So we saw all of the racist arguments that he made.
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He was a part of that whole Halloween costume debacle in the book where Manny and Jared
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and their friends and they rope Justice in too to dress up as racial stereotypes for
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Halloween.
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And Justice was the thug.
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Manny was the token Black.
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Jared was some kind of yuppie.
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And then this other kid, Blake, wore an authentic KKK hood and robe that just happened to be
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lying around his house.
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I don't know.
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They didn't get away with this horrible idea.
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They saw consequences to choosing to dress up this way.
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And those consequences fell differently for the white kids than the Black kids.
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Because later in the book, a picture of Justice, who is usually wearing, I think, his Brazelton
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Prep hoodie, there a picture of Justice circulates in the news where he's dressed in his hood
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Halloween costume, and it's used as part of the media smear against him to say that he
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deserves whatever is coming.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So anyway, Jared participates in all of that.
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But I also think he genuinely cares about Manny as a friend.
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And he does show some growth towards the end of the book.
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He's taking an African American studies class in college and considering going into civil
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rights law.
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But it's just a shame that it took such an extreme circumstance for him to open his eyes
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a little bit and come around to a different way of thinking.
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I think it is one of the most hopeful ideas, I think, is the idea that people can change
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in fundamental ways.
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And I think the fundamental change in Jared is just that he becomes a little bit humble
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about what it is he doesn't know about what Black people in America face.
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The idea that America has moved beyond racism is extremely attractive.
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It would be lovely if it were true.
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And I think that the desire for that is lovely.
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And to pretend that it's a reality is violent and dangerous.
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And I think the bit of hope that comes, or a bit of hope for me in this book is just
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that Jared would become curious.
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And I think that's Nick Stone's invitation to the reader as well.
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Absolutely.
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So at the end of the book, Justice goes to college and he meets his roommate.
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And just from that disappointing interaction, he thinks to himself, it never ends, does
303
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it?
304
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Referring to people looking at him differently or making judgments about him because he's
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Black.
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And he kind of wonders to himself what was the whole point of his Martin Luther King project.
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He thinks if nothing ever changes, what type of man am I going to be?
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You know, he says Martin Luther King lived this life of nonviolence and he got shot anyway.
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But I think it was the teacher who said, or the teacher who pointed out that Martin Luther
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King would have lived his life the same way anyway.
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So my takeaway is kind of what we were talking about earlier and goes back to the quote that
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you shared earlier.
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You can't control other people, but you can control how you move through the world and
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what you make of things.
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So at one point, towards the end of the book, Justice kind of did have a choice.
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He could go to Yale or he could join a gang.
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And I didn't think he was actually going to join this gang, but there is a scene where
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he goes and visits the local gang leader.
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And that kind of showed how there was a potential for him to take his life down a different
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path.
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Yeah, but he chose to move forward with his education.
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I think that scene is really poignant when he goes to the house of the gang leader and
323
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sees there's all this Egyptian imagery around.
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And this man is talking about his royal heritage of being of African descent.
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And he's listening so empathetically to all the stuff that Justice has been through.
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And Justice says how he feels very understood in a way that he hasn't felt understood in
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a long time, like that all these terrible things that have happened to him, this guy
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really understands.
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And I think that's part of the attraction, not so much in order to do violence, but to
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be in a circle of people who understand you.
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And contrast that with going to Princeton and yes, having this white roommate who's
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kind of looking down his nose at you.
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One choice involves a lot of struggle.
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I know Michelle Obama said when she went to Princeton, she felt like she was a black dot
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in a bowl of rice.
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The image that's going to stay with me is an image that's pretty early in the book.
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It's when Justice goes home to his mom and he's feeling like he doesn't want to return
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to school.
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But when he goes in and he sees his mom reading a book, he remembers how his mom taught him
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to read and how she's always championed his education.
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And that when he walks in and sees her reading that book, he knows he's going to go on his
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way back to school.
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But what I love about that moment is that his mother listens to him.
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She listens, she listens, she listens, and then she asks him, what are you going to do?
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Again, that's the question that we keep coming back to is what are you going to do with the
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circumstances that you find yourself in because it can always be tempting to run away and
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to opt out of the difficulty that you're facing.
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That kind of brings me to the song that I picked for this episode.
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I don't know if we're ready to talk about it.
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We also want to talk about would you add this to the syllabus?
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It is such an accessible read and a good entry point to begin to think about and talk about
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issues of race.
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So librarians like to talk a lot about Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop.
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Maybe you're familiar with her concept of books being windows, mirrors, and sliding
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glass doors.
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So Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop is the originator of the concept of books as windows, mirrors,
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and sliding glass doors.
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And Dear Martin is a perfect example of how this book could be a window for some kids
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into other lives.
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And it could also be a mirror for other kids who see themselves in this story.
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So that's why I think it is absolutely valuable to use in any classroom.
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It's definitely a book that I can imagine even building an entire unit around, not least
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because of the way that it models having discussions about difficult issues.
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And also because of the way that it models both healthy and unhealthy relationships.
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I think there's really a lot here that students can discuss and because it's fiction but
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very closely related to events that are frequently discussed in the news.
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And it could be a really useful text in helping students understand many of the conversations
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that are happening about policing and about race in the country.
369
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,440
Yeah, these are current events.
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And it's the world that our students and our own kids are living in right now.
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Do we know more about what are the challenges to this book?
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Is it just that it portrays?
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I don't know if I found anything else.
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00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:22,040
I think it's just like portrays police in a bad light.
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00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,480
I don't know.
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00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,680
Let's look at Dear Martin, Nick Stone challenge.
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00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,320
Okay, let's see.
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Marshall libraries.
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Let's see.
380
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,940
Challenged at Rockwood School District, St. Louis County, Missouri, parents complained
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00:31:45,940 --> 00:31:51,920
about the use of Dear Martin by Nick Stone in the culture and identity unit of ninth-grade
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English classes.
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00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,000
The school district's lessons plans contextualize the book's themes of racism and police violence
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00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,920
through discussions on racial profiling, civil disobedience, and affirmative action.
385
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:13,440
Oh, okay, so someone who objected to the book said she was quote, heartsick when listening
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00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,520
to the audiobook and hearing what she described as anti-police sentiment.
387
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Yeah, so that's one challenge.
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00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,880
Anti-police sentiment.
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00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,640
Yeah, I guess there's not much more to say about that.
390
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,640
Let's see.
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00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,760
Dear Martin pulled from Tuscola class.
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00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,520
This is on a site called Smokey Mountain News.
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Students at Tuscola High School will no longer be able to read Dear Martin after administration
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00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:54,880
decided the book is too inappropriate to use as assigned reading.
395
00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,840
The intended educational message or purpose of the book was being diminished by the way
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00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:08,080
it was written, by the amount of profanity and innuendo.
397
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,520
So there are curse words in this book.
398
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520
Uh oh.
399
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:21,400
I don't know.
400
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:34,720
There's also the acknowledgment that justice finds girls attractive.
401
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:42,280
Yes he does.
402
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,840
And no other teenager feels that way.
403
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:53,880
It seems obvious that challenges to this book are based in political grievances.
404
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Something that's so strange that came up in my teaching career is explicitly teaching
405
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,480
about race and racism, a political act.
406
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:11,760
I mean, I would read books in the library with kids, like super young second graders.
407
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:20,640
We would be reading picture books themed for Martin Luther King Day and talk about racism
408
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,360
with seven year olds.
409
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,040
Like, if they're, you know, if they're young enough to experience it, why can't they talk
410
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,160
about it in school?
411
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,360
So I picked Changes by Tupac Shakur.
412
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,960
Oh I love that song.
413
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,920
Me too, it's just like one of my favorite songs in general.
414
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:53,560
I actually just found out that it was released after he died, but recorded years earlier,
415
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,560
obviously.
416
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,000
I mean, Tupac lives.
417
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:06,520
But anyway, so it was recorded in 1992 and released in 98, two years after his death.
418
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,440
This song addresses racism, police brutality, gang violence.
419
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:19,320
It has a reference to Huey Newton, who was the leader of the Black Panthers.
420
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:26,240
But one line that kind of brought me into Dear Martin was just a quick lyric.
421
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:37,280
I'd love to go back to when we played as kids and it made me think of Justice and Quan,
422
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:48,760
who is Manny's cousin, but Quan was also Justice's friend as a kid.
423
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:56,640
I think it's funny that Justice always refers to his mom's neighborhood and not my old
424
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,960
neighborhood or my neighborhood.
425
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:06,040
It's always my mom's neighborhood or his mom's neighborhood, you know, because he lives in
426
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,200
the dorm at school now.
427
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:18,920
But when they're introducing Quan, who is early in the book arrested for killing a police
428
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:26,480
officer, who happens to be the police officer that Justice had his incident with?
429
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,360
Quan and Justice played together back when the only thing that mattered was staying outside
430
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,560
until the streetlights came on.
431
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:42,440
And it says like Justice Quan tested into the accelerated learners program in third grade.
432
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,920
But when elementary school ended, Quan started running with a not-so-great crowd.
433
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,680
So you know, Justice went to this private school.
434
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,360
Quan stayed in the neighborhood and joined a gang.
435
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:07,720
And I feel like the song changes is kind of like about feeling as if you have no choice
436
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:18,680
in your situation and specifically as a black man in America, as Tupac was writing about
437
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,920
his experience.
438
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:29,160
So I just kind of saw that connection between the song and the characters in the book.
439
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:36,040
So what song did you pick?
440
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,800
My song was also released in 1998.
441
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,800
Amazing.
442
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Forgive Them Father and it is from the Divine album called The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill
443
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,480
by Ms. Lauryn Hill.
444
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Wait, sidebar.
445
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:59,520
But when you look up Lauryn Hill on Spotify, it says Ms. Lauryn Hill for the official name
446
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,520
of the artist.
447
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,400
That is her official artist name now by Ms. Lauryn Hill.
448
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,400
Yeah.
449
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Yeah, I love it.
450
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:15,200
So my song is Forgive Them Father by Ms. Lauryn Hill from her album The Miseducation of Lauryn
451
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,780
Hill, correction.
452
00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:22,400
So I wanted to pick something from this album just because this is a book that takes place
453
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,320
in school and it's an album that takes place conceptually in school.
454
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,600
So I like that.
455
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:36,240
And I also resonate with the message of the song, which is really kind of a prayer, honestly,
456
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:44,000
that Ms. Lauryn Hill is singing about people who have harmed her, but not necessarily hurt
457
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:50,280
personally only, but like collectively have harmed Black people, asking for forgiveness
458
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,920
for those who truly don't know what they do.
459
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,480
And I just think that this is such a lovely, gracious song.
460
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,680
Almost nobly, the artist is like expressing this desire.
461
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,300
I just think it's a really amazing song about forgiveness.
462
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:10,040
And I can't quite believe that forgiveness like this exists.
463
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:19,480
But it seems to me that this is kind of what Gandhi, what MLK Jr., what Justice McAllister
464
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,800
are striving for.
465
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,640
I think the song kind of gets at some of that.
466
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:29,080
It seems like superhuman to be able to forgive such atrocities.
467
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And maybe it is.
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Maybe it is superhuman.
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Anyway, that song reminds me of this.
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And I like how you included Justice in that list of great minds, because the follow up
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to Dear Martin is Dear Justice.
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And it's actually Kwan's letters to Justice.
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So we get to see the perspective of Kwan in the companion book.
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Kwan gets to speak for himself as well, which that's great.
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Thanks for listening to today's episode of Lit Mix.
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Check the link in our show notes for other perspectives and resources on the books and
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topics discussed in this show.
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Lit Mix is created, hosted, and produced by Andrea Benvenuto and me, Rachel Stone.
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Follow us on Instagram at Lit Mix Podcast or email us at LitMixPodcast at gmail.com.
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Like what you hear?
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00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,440
Subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.
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Or drop a few coins in our tip jar on Ko-fi.
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Thanks for your support.
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And we'll see you next time.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,880
This is Lit Mix, a podcast about the books that challenge us.
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I'm Andrea.
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And I'm Rachel.
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We're friends who met in eighth grade and grew up to be a high school English teacher
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and a K-12 school librarian.
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On each episode of our show, we focus on one book, exploring why it's controversial and
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what makes it important.
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Today, we're discussing Nick Stone's young adult debut, Dear Martin.
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Everything can be taken from a person, but one thing, the last of the human freedoms
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to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
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This quote comes from Viktor Frankl, who was a Jewish Austrian psychiatrist and concentration
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camp survivor.
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An idea that the author wants the reader to wrestle with is how do you find the motivation
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to continue to do what's right, even when everyone around you looks at you and assumes
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that what you're doing is wrong, and even when doing what's right is the thing that
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gets you into trouble in the first place.
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Kat, I think choices in the moment and life choices are both themes that come up a lot
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in this book.
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So Dear Martin is Nick Stone's debut novel, it was published in 2017, and it was inspired
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by real events, including the 2012 murder of 17-year-old Jordan Davis, who was a black
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teen who was shot by a white man at a Florida gas station after an argument about loud music.
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Stone is also the author of other books, Odd One Out, Jackpot, and Dear Justice, which
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is a companion to Dear Martin, and we could talk about later.
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Dear Martin was a finalist for the ALA's 2018 William C. Morris Award, which is an award
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for a debut young adult novel.
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It was also an ALA 2018 top 10 quick pick for reluctant young adult readers and got
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a starred review from BookList.
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However, like so many of the great recent books that we're talking about, this book
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has been challenged in recent years.
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It was removed from the curriculum in Columbia County, Georgia, and I think it was removed
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because it talked about police violence and put police in a not 100% positive light.
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So I actually saw an interview with Nick Stone where she essentially said, you know, that's
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great that you can try to shield your children, Rachel and I, we didn't need to have that
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talk with our sons about how to deal with police, and that's our white privilege.
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But there are so many kids who have that talk with their parents who need to know that,
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you know, there are certain ways to act in order to save your life.
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And even following all those rules can still get you killed, which is a big part of the
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book.
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Doing the right thing with black skin might still get you in the line of extra scrutiny
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and even violence.
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Yeah, so that's how the book opens.
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It's called Dear Martin because the main character Justice starts writing a kind of like a journal
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of letters to Martin Luther King.
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After what he calls the incident, which is the opening scene of the book, he is trying
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to stop his ex-girlfriend from driving home drunk.
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And a cop comes onto the scene, sees these two teenagers struggling and immediately assumes
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the worst of justice.
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And he is assaulted by the police officer.
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He's handcuffed.
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Was he arrested?
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Yeah,
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He was brought to the station and arrested and then released.
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Justice is trying to do the right thing.
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He can't leave this girl drunk in a parking lot with her car and her car keys.
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He even considers taking the keys and just leaving her there and letting her parents
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come get her.
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But he also thinks what could happen to her here late at night all by herself.
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I can't even just leave her without the car keys.
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The incident that opens the book mirrors an incident that takes place off-stage later
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in the book, but is one of those stories that's circulating in the news cycle in Injustice's
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story.
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And it's a story of a young black man attempting to help an older woman who had gotten lost
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or something like that.
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And then he was also assaulted by police who assumed in that moment that he was doing something
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nefarious when in fact he was trying to help.
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So that's that question again.
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How do you continue to do what's right when because of the way you look, it's going to
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be assumed that what you're doing is wrong.
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And people are going to make that assumption of you.
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Why should you commit to nonviolence?
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It might be in Justices first letter to Martin Luther King, where he kind of talks about
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why he's writing to him and him in particular.
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It says I've been trying to figure out what you would have done if you'd been in my shoes
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today.
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I know you lived in a world where black folks were hosed and beaten and jailed and killed
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while fighting for equal rights, but you still managed to be like dignified and everything.
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How did you do that, Martin?
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How do I do that?
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So that is what Justice is struggling with throughout the book.
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And he wants to do the right thing.
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And he wants to be dignified and be a good person.
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But how do you do it?
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What does it mean?
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These are questions that every young adult has to face.
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The things that each person are facing is going to be different.
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But I think there's so much that any reader can get from Justice's exploration of this
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question.
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How do I remain dignified when I am treated unfairly?
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When people assume the worst of me?
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Do I return violence and suspicion and hatred for violence and suspicion and hatred?
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Because Justice wants to at a certain point, right, without spoiling anything in the book.
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There are moments in this narrative when he feels like returning violence for violence
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is absolutely the right thing to do.
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But the author doesn't leave us there.
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No.
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So what did you love about this book?
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Because I think we both really loved it.
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I love the portrayal of the teacher whom they affectionately call Doc.
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He's a black man, has a PhD, is their debate coach and teacher.
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I just love the way that he runs a classroom and allows kids to talk about topics that
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are difficult, talk about, well, topics that are controversial and hard.
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And I think he provides a model of civility and a model of maturity and a model of courage
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for the many wonderful teachers who continue to hold difficult conversations about really
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important things, even when they know they will probably catch heat from it from someone,
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whether that's parents or school boards or politicians.
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I think we've been seeing a lot of that in our world.
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And it's lovely to see a book that really foregrounds this need for conversation.
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Another thing I loved about the book is that it is framed as a conversation that Justice
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is having with himself and a conversation that he's having with Martin.
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There's a point at which Justice says, you know, maybe the right question isn't what
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would Martin do, but what am I going to stand true to despite whatever is coming at me?
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I loved SJ and Justice's relationship so, so much, which I know that's what you're
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going to say, but I just thought it was one of the cutest, geekiest, sweetest high school
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romances ever.
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Karly, I love them.
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You know, they were debate partners first.
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And so in a way, their relationship was based on conversations.
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And they just they talked to each other about things that really mattered.
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Justice had another love interest, Mellow, who is the girl from the opening scene.
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And their relationship in contrast seemed mostly physical.
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I remember what Mellow looks like, but not really anything she said.
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I was just going to say, I feel like Mellow was described as looking like a brats doll.
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Yeah, and I think there is a part later in the book where she does actually talk to Justice
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in one scene.
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I don't remember what the conversation is, but she's not totally one-dimensional, but
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she definitely she doesn't have much of a presence.
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We'll put it that way.
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And SJ and Justice, they could talk for hours on the phone and not realize that time had
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passed.
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And SJ is white.
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She's Jewish.
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And at one point early in their relationship, she apologizes to Justice for kind of like
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speaking for him in one of the classroom debates.
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And that was something that he really appreciated.
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So I don't know, it's just a really cute give and take between them.
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And A, I could see this relationship lasting through college, possibly beyond, who knows,
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high school sweetheart.
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But also I thought it's just a really good example to teenagers of what a great healthy
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relationship can look like where you're equal partners and friends.
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Equal partners and friends.
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And I love what Justice says to his mom.
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He's like, SJ makes me better.
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She makes me want to be better.
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She encourages and champions the best parts of myself that I like.
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Yeah, and his mom isn't very excited about this relationship, I guess, because she
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envisions him dating and eventually marrying a black woman.
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So SJ doesn't fit her vision for her son of who he's going to be with.
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But so at first he kind of hides it from his mom.
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But then at a certain point, he just kind of tells her, like you said, this is this
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is who I'm with right now.
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And we work well together.
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One thing else to note is and I don't remember who said this, but at least
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one person in the book said that SJ is not white white.
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She's Jewish.
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So do you want to say anything about that as the Jewish woman?
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The Jewish woman in the room on the call.
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And this is actually something that Justice brought up with his mom.
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He said to his mom, Sarah Jane's Jewish.
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Her people have suffered too.
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And she said, yeah, but you don't see Jewish on the skin, which I think is exactly his
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mom's exactly right.
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You don't see Jewish on the skin.
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People sometimes pretend that you can tell if someone's Jewish, but just by looking.
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But you can't.
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However, Justice also says when Justice says her people have suffered too.
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And then there are a couple of references in the book's book to forced migration and
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concentration camps and the fact that African-American people and Jewish people around the world
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share the distinction of being diasporic peoples, people who live in diaspora from an ancestral
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home that shared history of trauma can and has throughout history meant that Jews and
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blacks have been able to make common cause in the civil rights movement.
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And there is some reference to that.
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Sarah Jane mentions to Justice that there was Jewish involvement in the civil rights
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movement in the United States.
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However, I feel it's important to point out that Jews have participated in white privilege,
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a kind of shared history.
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The experience, the day-to-day experience of moving through the world is going to be
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different, but certainly attacks on synagogues and desecration of Jewish cemeteries and certain
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anti-Semitic attacks on the rise at the same time as police violence against black people
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continues unabated.
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It's probably time for thinking about joint civil rights movement again.
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And I also really liked there was one scene where the teacher doc visits Justice in his
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dorm room because Justice is a boarding student at this school.
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And I don't remember what the topic of conversation was, but Justice uses some kind of profanity
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in his conversation with the teacher and he immediately apologizes, but the teacher says,
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no, this is your space.
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Like I'm on your turf.
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That's quite all right.
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Speak how you will, speak how you feel.
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And I thought that was pretty cool.
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They were no longer in the classroom.
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They were in Justice's territory, his dorm room.
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Yes.
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That's another important thing that the book, I think, touches on this idea that young people
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have a right to their own spaces.
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Young people have a right to their own ideas.
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Young people have a right to their own voices.
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I just love that the teacher isn't going to censor the student and his authority is somewhat
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limited to the classroom and is in like a guiding role, but it's not an absolute authority.
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And this question of who has authority over kids is something that kind of comes up again
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and again at a certain point.
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His mother wants, Justice's mother wants to intervene and says like, no, don't answer
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their questions.
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Don't do this.
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Don't be like, mom, thank you, but I need to take over.
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I'm going to be 18 in three weeks and this is now my time to speak for myself.
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And at the same time, Nick Stone reminds us a few times that under Georgia law, justice
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as a 17-year-old could be treated in the criminal justice system as an adult.
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So there's a blurring of a line here where a system treats kids as kids when we're concerned
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about what substances they can buy or what movies and books they should have access to,
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but treating them as adults when they're coming before the law.
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Aside from Justice and Sarah Jane, there are some interesting side characters.
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Justice's friends and classmates.
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Do you want to start by talking about Manny?
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So Manny is Justice's best friend.
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Manny's father is an investment banker and Manny's mother is a psychologist.
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And Manny has lived the life of a wealthier black man in suburban Atlanta in Georgia.
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And Manny and Justice have a great relationship.
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In one of their very vulnerable conversations, Manny confesses to Justice that he's kind
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of afraid of black girls that he goes on to explain is because of the expensive private
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school that he's gone to because of the very wealthy lifestyle that he's had.
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He hasn't been around many black girls outside of girls in his own family and feels like
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he doesn't know how to talk to them.
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Think the thing you could say about Manny that would sum it up is that he is worried
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that he's not really black enough.
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He's hung out with a lot of white guys his whole life and that's not always so easy for
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him.
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So another character that I feel like we should talk about is Jared, who is one of Justice's
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classmates and Manny's friend, but not necessarily Justice's friend.
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Not at all.
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At least, and not after a certain point.
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Yeah, do you want to talk about Jared's role
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in the classroom discussion?
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Perhaps we really see what Jared is made
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of when he comes into class the day after getting deferred from Yale and he is upset.
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And the reason he's upset is that he's pretty sure that the reason he got deferred from
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Yale instead of accepted early decision is because he's white.
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And then he proceeds to make a series of assumptions about Justice and his acceptance early decision
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to Yale.
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And he makes some assumptions about his test scores and his grades.
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And this brings out a full-throated defense from SJ and it's quite a classroom event.
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The upshot of it is that Jared is pretty sure that he's better than some black guy who's
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going to get into Yale ahead of him.
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The scene is really useful, I think, for illustrating a conversation that I personally have seen
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take place many times on a prep school campus and raises the sort of essential question
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of how do you find equality in the admissions process when some people have had such better
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and more thorough preparation by the age of 17 or 18.
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The case that SJ makes is, you know, if you didn't have all these test prep courses, if
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you didn't have all high school teachers with PhDs instead of first-year teachers who quit
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after a year in tough city schools, if you didn't have parents who are constantly reading
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to you, then how is your SAT score stacked up against somebody else's SAT score?
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How is it even a fair comparison?
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Because the starting conditions are so different.
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And I think we do see Jared sort of take some of that in.
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Yeah, and Jared was the one in one of the first classroom conversations who insisted
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that everything is now equal in the United States.
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He pointed at Manny and Manny's family and look how well off they are because of his
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parents' hard work.
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And if they can be a Black family that has all of this wealth, you know, why can't others?
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So I mean, that's just like when we first meet Jared, he's like, oh, there's no racism
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anymore.
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I think that Jared, because of his friendship with Manny, is a really good example of how
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white people can both be friends with and care about the Black people in their life,
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and still participate in and perpetuate racism.
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So we saw all of the racist arguments that he made.
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He was a part of that whole Halloween costume debacle in the book where Manny and Jared
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and their friends and they rope Justice in too to dress up as racial stereotypes for
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Halloween.
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And Justice was the thug.
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Manny was the token Black.
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Jared was some kind of yuppie.
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And then this other kid, Blake, wore an authentic KKK hood and robe that just happened to be
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lying around his house.
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I don't know.
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They didn't get away with this horrible idea.
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They saw consequences to choosing to dress up this way.
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And those consequences fell differently for the white kids than the Black kids.
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Because later in the book, a picture of Justice, who is usually wearing, I think, his Brazelton
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Prep hoodie, there a picture of Justice circulates in the news where he's dressed in his hood
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Halloween costume, and it's used as part of the media smear against him to say that he
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deserves whatever is coming.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So anyway, Jared participates in all of that.
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But I also think he genuinely cares about Manny as a friend.
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And he does show some growth towards the end of the book.
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He's taking an African American studies class in college and considering going into civil
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rights law.
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But it's just a shame that it took such an extreme circumstance for him to open his eyes
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a little bit and come around to a different way of thinking.
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I think it is one of the most hopeful ideas, I think, is the idea that people can change
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in fundamental ways.
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And I think the fundamental change in Jared is just that he becomes a little bit humble
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about what it is he doesn't know about what Black people in America face.
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The idea that America has moved beyond racism is extremely attractive.
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It would be lovely if it were true.
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And I think that the desire for that is lovely.
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And to pretend that it's a reality is violent and dangerous.
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And I think the bit of hope that comes, or a bit of hope for me in this book is just
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that Jared would become curious.
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And I think that's Nick Stone's invitation to the reader as well.
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Absolutely.
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So at the end of the book, Justice goes to college and he meets his roommate.
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And just from that disappointing interaction, he thinks to himself, it never ends, does
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it?
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Referring to people looking at him differently or making judgments about him because he's
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Black.
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And he kind of wonders to himself what was the whole point of his Martin Luther King project.
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He thinks if nothing ever changes, what type of man am I going to be?
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You know, he says Martin Luther King lived this life of nonviolence and he got shot anyway.
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But I think it was the teacher who said, or the teacher who pointed out that Martin Luther
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King would have lived his life the same way anyway.
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So my takeaway is kind of what we were talking about earlier and goes back to the quote that
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you shared earlier.
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You can't control other people, but you can control how you move through the world and
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what you make of things.
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So at one point, towards the end of the book, Justice kind of did have a choice.
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He could go to Yale or he could join a gang.
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And I didn't think he was actually going to join this gang, but there is a scene where
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he goes and visits the local gang leader.
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And that kind of showed how there was a potential for him to take his life down a different
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path.
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Yeah, but he chose to move forward with his education.
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I think that scene is really poignant when he goes to the house of the gang leader and
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sees there's all this Egyptian imagery around.
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And this man is talking about his royal heritage of being of African descent.
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And he's listening so empathetically to all the stuff that Justice has been through.
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And Justice says how he feels very understood in a way that he hasn't felt understood in
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a long time, like that all these terrible things that have happened to him, this guy
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really understands.
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And I think that's part of the attraction, not so much in order to do violence, but to
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be in a circle of people who understand you.
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And contrast that with going to Princeton and yes, having this white roommate who's
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kind of looking down his nose at you.
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One choice involves a lot of struggle.
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I know Michelle Obama said when she went to Princeton, she felt like she was a black dot
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in a bowl of rice.
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The image that's going to stay with me is an image that's pretty early in the book.
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It's when Justice goes home to his mom and he's feeling like he doesn't want to return
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to school.
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But when he goes in and he sees his mom reading a book, he remembers how his mom taught him
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to read and how she's always championed his education.
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And that when he walks in and sees her reading that book, he knows he's going to go on his
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way back to school.
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But what I love about that moment is that his mother listens to him.
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She listens, she listens, she listens, and then she asks him, what are you going to do?
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Again, that's the question that we keep coming back to is what are you going to do with the
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circumstances that you find yourself in because it can always be tempting to run away and
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to opt out of the difficulty that you're facing.
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That kind of brings me to the song that I picked for this episode.
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I don't know if we're ready to talk about it.
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We also want to talk about would you add this to the syllabus?
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It is such an accessible read and a good entry point to begin to think about and talk about
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issues of race.
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So librarians like to talk a lot about Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop.
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Maybe you're familiar with her concept of books being windows, mirrors, and sliding
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glass doors.
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So Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop is the originator of the concept of books as windows, mirrors,
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and sliding glass doors.
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And Dear Martin is a perfect example of how this book could be a window for some kids
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into other lives.
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And it could also be a mirror for other kids who see themselves in this story.
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So that's why I think it is absolutely valuable to use in any classroom.
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It's definitely a book that I can imagine even building an entire unit around, not least
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because of the way that it models having discussions about difficult issues.
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And also because of the way that it models both healthy and unhealthy relationships.
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I think there's really a lot here that students can discuss and because it's fiction but
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very closely related to events that are frequently discussed in the news.
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And it could be a really useful text in helping students understand many of the conversations
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that are happening about policing and about race in the country.
369
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Yeah, these are current events.
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And it's the world that our students and our own kids are living in right now.
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Do we know more about what are the challenges to this book?
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Is it just that it portrays?
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I don't know if I found anything else.
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00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:22,040
I think it's just like portrays police in a bad light.
375
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I don't know.
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00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,680
Let's look at Dear Martin, Nick Stone challenge.
377
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Okay, let's see.
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Marshall libraries.
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Let's see.
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Challenged at Rockwood School District, St. Louis County, Missouri, parents complained
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about the use of Dear Martin by Nick Stone in the culture and identity unit of ninth-grade
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English classes.
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The school district's lessons plans contextualize the book's themes of racism and police violence
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through discussions on racial profiling, civil disobedience, and affirmative action.
385
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:13,440
Oh, okay, so someone who objected to the book said she was quote, heartsick when listening
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to the audiobook and hearing what she described as anti-police sentiment.
387
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Yeah, so that's one challenge.
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Anti-police sentiment.
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00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,640
Yeah, I guess there's not much more to say about that.
390
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,640
Let's see.
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00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,760
Dear Martin pulled from Tuscola class.
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This is on a site called Smokey Mountain News.
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Students at Tuscola High School will no longer be able to read Dear Martin after administration
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decided the book is too inappropriate to use as assigned reading.
395
00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,840
The intended educational message or purpose of the book was being diminished by the way
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it was written, by the amount of profanity and innuendo.
397
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,520
So there are curse words in this book.
398
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520
Uh oh.
399
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:21,400
I don't know.
400
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:34,720
There's also the acknowledgment that justice finds girls attractive.
401
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:42,280
Yes he does.
402
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,840
And no other teenager feels that way.
403
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:53,880
It seems obvious that challenges to this book are based in political grievances.
404
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Something that's so strange that came up in my teaching career is explicitly teaching
405
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,480
about race and racism, a political act.
406
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:11,760
I mean, I would read books in the library with kids, like super young second graders.
407
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:20,640
We would be reading picture books themed for Martin Luther King Day and talk about racism
408
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,360
with seven year olds.
409
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,040
Like, if they're, you know, if they're young enough to experience it, why can't they talk
410
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,160
about it in school?
411
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,360
So I picked Changes by Tupac Shakur.
412
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,960
Oh I love that song.
413
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,920
Me too, it's just like one of my favorite songs in general.
414
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:53,560
I actually just found out that it was released after he died, but recorded years earlier,
415
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,560
obviously.
416
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,000
I mean, Tupac lives.
417
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:06,520
But anyway, so it was recorded in 1992 and released in 98, two years after his death.
418
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,440
This song addresses racism, police brutality, gang violence.
419
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:19,320
It has a reference to Huey Newton, who was the leader of the Black Panthers.
420
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:26,240
But one line that kind of brought me into Dear Martin was just a quick lyric.
421
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:37,280
I'd love to go back to when we played as kids and it made me think of Justice and Quan,
422
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:48,760
who is Manny's cousin, but Quan was also Justice's friend as a kid.
423
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:56,640
I think it's funny that Justice always refers to his mom's neighborhood and not my old
424
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,960
neighborhood or my neighborhood.
425
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:06,040
It's always my mom's neighborhood or his mom's neighborhood, you know, because he lives in
426
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,200
the dorm at school now.
427
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:18,920
But when they're introducing Quan, who is early in the book arrested for killing a police
428
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:26,480
officer, who happens to be the police officer that Justice had his incident with?
429
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,360
Quan and Justice played together back when the only thing that mattered was staying outside
430
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,560
until the streetlights came on.
431
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:42,440
And it says like Justice Quan tested into the accelerated learners program in third grade.
432
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,920
But when elementary school ended, Quan started running with a not-so-great crowd.
433
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,680
So you know, Justice went to this private school.
434
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,360
Quan stayed in the neighborhood and joined a gang.
435
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:07,720
And I feel like the song changes is kind of like about feeling as if you have no choice
436
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:18,680
in your situation and specifically as a black man in America, as Tupac was writing about
437
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,920
his experience.
438
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:29,160
So I just kind of saw that connection between the song and the characters in the book.
439
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:36,040
So what song did you pick?
440
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,800
My song was also released in 1998.
441
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,800
Amazing.
442
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Forgive Them Father and it is from the Divine album called The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill
443
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,480
by Ms. Lauryn Hill.
444
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Wait, sidebar.
445
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:59,520
But when you look up Lauryn Hill on Spotify, it says Ms. Lauryn Hill for the official name
446
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,520
of the artist.
447
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,400
That is her official artist name now by Ms. Lauryn Hill.
448
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,400
Yeah.
449
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Yeah, I love it.
450
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:15,200
So my song is Forgive Them Father by Ms. Lauryn Hill from her album The Miseducation of Lauryn
451
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,780
Hill, correction.
452
00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:22,400
So I wanted to pick something from this album just because this is a book that takes place
453
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,320
in school and it's an album that takes place conceptually in school.
454
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,600
So I like that.
455
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:36,240
And I also resonate with the message of the song, which is really kind of a prayer, honestly,
456
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:44,000
that Ms. Lauryn Hill is singing about people who have harmed her, but not necessarily hurt
457
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:50,280
personally only, but like collectively have harmed Black people, asking for forgiveness
458
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,920
for those who truly don't know what they do.
459
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,480
And I just think that this is such a lovely, gracious song.
460
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,680
Almost nobly, the artist is like expressing this desire.
461
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,300
I just think it's a really amazing song about forgiveness.
462
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:10,040
And I can't quite believe that forgiveness like this exists.
463
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:19,480
But it seems to me that this is kind of what Gandhi, what MLK Jr., what Justice McAllister
464
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,800
are striving for.
465
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,640
I think the song kind of gets at some of that.
466
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:29,080
It seems like superhuman to be able to forgive such atrocities.
467
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,200
And maybe it is.
468
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,680
Maybe it is superhuman.
469
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,360
Anyway, that song reminds me of this.
470
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:45,560
And I like how you included Justice in that list of great minds, because the follow up
471
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,680
to Dear Martin is Dear Justice.
472
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:56,320
And it's actually Kwan's letters to Justice.
473
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:04,760
So we get to see the perspective of Kwan in the companion book.
474
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,280
Kwan gets to speak for himself as well, which that's great.
475
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,560
Thanks for listening to today's episode of Lit Mix.
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00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,880
Check the link in our show notes for other perspectives and resources on the books and
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00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,880
topics discussed in this show.
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00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:29,200
Lit Mix is created, hosted, and produced by Andrea Benvenuto and me, Rachel Stone.
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00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:37,440
Follow us on Instagram at Lit Mix Podcast or email us at LitMixPodcast at gmail.com.
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00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,440
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00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,440
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00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,440
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00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,440
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00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:53,440
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