mark welte: Hello and welcome back to Life Under Supervision, the podcast for AMFTs, APPCs, and anyone interested in the life of a new therapist or someone becoming a therapist. Now, before we begin, I want to extend a heap of gratitude to a wonderful friend of mine, Nancy Sorrell, and her bandmate, Connor Kelly McSherry, for the wonderful job that they've done in creating the music for this show. Nancy and I spoke about a few little lines and then she came up with this wonderful hook she handed it off to Connor who added his own percussion and recording magic and I gotta say I love the sound. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And now today we're gonna discuss a variety of topics all under the large heading of counter transference. I often consider counter transference as part of the personal baggage that a therapist brings into the session and how it's going to be used if used or triggered and how that may influence both the client and the therapist and the session. So today I'm going to welcome in a therapist perhaps unlike some of the others one would meet in the Bay Area, in that she has a couple of unique elements to her background. Jessica Urtsula Urtsua, excuse me, Jessica. Jessica Urtsua is
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: you
mark welte: an LMFT in private practice who also teaches as an adjunct professor at USF, University of San Francisco, and has worked in public mental health for years. She was born and raised in Chile, came to the States as a young adult, and studied Latin American literature and German in school, and now runs her own practice in San Mateo. In her practice, she also employs a variety of psychodynamic and symbolic tools like drawing, dream analysis, and tarot, which will be interesting to talk about. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Thank you, thank you, James.
mark welte: So the listener could get a little bit to know something about you. could you please ble could you please briefly describe your path to working in mental health and what your principal modalities might be and how your practice works with clients, how you like to work with clients.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. So for the most part, I work through a Jungian umbrella. quite fascinated with psychoanalysis, but from psychoanalysis I have taken, because there's so many modalities, right? In psychoanalysis, the Freudian school, Jungian, which are the most common kind. I tend to work from a Jungian perspective. And so I incorporate symbolism, right? images and most of the work I do has to do with bringing the unconscious into consciousness if that's kind of understood which we can talk about in a little bit.
mark welte: Sure. And now w w would you w how did you ha you because you studied languages and literature, how did you take a a detour and get into mental health?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, I must have been nine or ten in Santiago, Chile. And for some interesting reason I found, which now I understand must have been the interpretation of dreams, of Freud. I don't know how I got home. It was in German, we speak Spanish in Chile. And I look at the drawings and I thought they were fascinating, a little bit forbidden, fascinating, a lot of symbols. And years went by, I came to the United States, I'm graduating in Latin American Literature. And while studying Latin American Literature, I came up with the work of German Hesse and another Chilean author that were quite friends, were quite close, and they also were acquaintances of Jung. And so the same images I had seen, I don't know, 30 years ago reappeared. And then I realized, huh. This is not just drawing, this has to do with the unconscious, with raw material. And so although my first love was Latin American literature, I realized that the normal or the unique continuation for me would be psychology through a Jungian lens.
mark welte: Super. Your journey w made a quick detour that you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm.
mark welte: know mine much later in life is is is has us taken a similar path, being influenced by literature and art as well.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, yeah.
mark welte: you said Hermann Hesse, right?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Correct, Hermann Hesse, which was part of the series, I didn't know that, with the Chilean author, last name Serrano, I don't remember the first name, but it was Hesse Serrano. And by the way, Hesse was a patient of Jung for perhaps a year or two, which I didn't know. so you can see, so Stephen Wolf, one of the best sellers of Hesse, is
mark welte: Steppenwolf, right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: correct, is quite... inspired in his analysis with Jung. And so this is why, as I fell in love with Hesse in high school, at the same time I fell in love with Jung many years later, now I understand why, because they were, you know, related in a way, right? It was an analysis and allysent, yeah.
mark welte: Sure, sure. Now I gave my very neophyte i interpretation or definition of the word counter transference. I I would love for you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, I'm curious, tell me.
mark welte: to please clarify what does it mean to you,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Ha ha!
mark welte: how do you define it and how does it show up and you know, y you have the run. There there's no hurry here. I I really want to hear how it how it shows up in your practice.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Right. So I might be quite biased here, aren't we all? Because my concept of countertransference is very Jungian. If we go before Jung, countertransference was a nuisance. Freud saw it as neurosis, right? Neurosis of the analyst and you want to get rid of it, right? It's a nuisance in therapy. Whereas for Jung, and I have discovered for me as well, practicing all these years, It's quite necessary. You don't want to get rid of it. You want to have counter-transferencing session because you said, hmm, you asked me how do I define it? So it's the encounter of two unconsciousness, yours as the patient, mine as the analyst, right? Two unconsciousness meeting and reflecting on the other, learning from the other, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: So I think it's a... very necessary tool that we're not to avoid, but to become conscious and integrate.
mark welte: Okay. c c can you can you give us a pr a a gr a realistic or let's say a a practical moment when you noticed a counter
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure.
mark welte: transference reaction and w how what did you d decide to do with it and
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. And it can be quite raw, right? I think this is why most therapies, especially new therapies, tend to shy away because it can be beyond uncomfortable. Little disclosure, I have a 21-year-old daughter, very difficult relationship with her since birth, very difficult. And so whenever I see teenage girls, that kind of resemble her, know, that they kind of like look like her or young women as her at 2021. Of course, my counter-transference shows up, right? And the archetypes, remember, through Jungian lens archetypes are the elements or the blueprint we have incorporated into our unconsciousness. So I look at this 21-year-old and I'm like, no, I don't like her, or I really want to mother her. I really
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: feel bad for her mom. this is not her, this is me, right? So to this day I still struggle or I have to have a very watchful eye on my own, on myself, when I see patients that a. resemble my daughter or what she was like as a young child. Because again sometimes my loyalty goes 100 % with them or against them but that has nothing to do with the patient, that's me. Does it make sense?
mark welte: I it makes sense, but I also have to say that it sounds a little bit t possibly exhausting.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It is because you need to keep yourself in check all the time. It's not
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: fair for the 20 year old that I might not like her, right? Or I might want to overmother her because it has nothing to with her business. It's me. So it's exhausting
mark welte: huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: for me. I need to keep myself in check for sure.
mark welte: So then when the session's over and you just have your regular life, and you know, I'm assuming you've been doing this for ten years or so,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: how does tr countertransference then in influence the way you think, feel, and you know, move, navigate through your own life? Do have have your impressions of twenty two-year-old females has that grown? Or what can w what can a new therapist expect to Learn from counter transference.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, yeah. Yeah. So before that, I would say that what helps me and hopefully what would help new therapies are, hmm, it could be notes, right? Like side notes, right? So
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: after you see this patient, you take a couple of minutes or hopefully more than a couple of minutes, what came to me, right? Annoying, right? I'm making it up, right? I don't like her too much, right? So. I take a couple of minutes after session, I write what I need to write, and I do a little bit of Hagerstalt experiment. Okay, now counter-transference, I'm going to put you on the shelf, right? Because I can't deal with you right now, we'll deal later, right? Because
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I have more patients or I have, right? So it's honoring that counter-transference, honoring that archetype of the bad daughter, right? Or the bad mother, and getting back to it later. You don't want the archetype or the counter-transference to possess you, right? You want to integrate it, so you give it space.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I feel ashamed right now, I feel anger, I feel agitated because of this patient. So you talk to the counter-transference. We'll deal with this later, okay? Not right now.
mark welte: And and so how do you pick it up later? How do you deal with it later? Or because I could imagine some young associates having you know, a a pretty whopping large caseload and and actually never readdressing it because they're seemingly overwhelmed or they are overwhelmed.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah.
mark welte: and w are are they are they hurting themselves? Are they d causing themselves some injury or
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: for sure, maybe not immediate, it's not... the question is not if they're hurting themselves, but when that hurt is going to show up, right? In session
mark welte: Sure.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: or with their family. Yeah, no, that's a ticking bomb, right? When you're like, no, I'm fine. No, another 20 year old, I can deal with it. But if I haven't integrated that counter-transference or that archetype into my consciousness, it'll come back, right? So you need to get back to it.
mark welte: So you're feeding the dark you're you're feeding the shadow. You c you're kind of feeding it the shadow.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Correct. Yeah. Correct. And you don't want the show to possess you, right? You want to integrate it.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Because there's two extremes, right? You either get shadow possessed or counter transfer and possessed,
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: or you're like, no, I'm fine. It doesn't matter. It's Neither nor. You need to be here, integrated.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And that's difficult. The extremes are easy.
mark welte: Now I I don't I don't want to appear woo-woo here, but it it is is the exercise of love a an antidote to this or or like a vitamin to help one deal with the counter transference later on? I mean because like I said, you might never you might not take it off the shelf for a while and then say Okay, because it's it i it sounds like a great personal eff effort.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course. Yeah, this is why again going to therapy is so difficult, right? Because it takes work and effort, right? It's not any
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: different with ourselves. So, you know, when I see this 20 year old girl and I end up with this feeling of like, I don't know, heaviness, but then I need to continue going with the next patient. At some point I need to address it, right? And I can address it as, okay, so I feel the heaviness here. I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to run. I feel the heaviness here. I'm going to take a long shower and wash it off.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But you need to deal with it in some way. Exercising,
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: reading, grounding yourself on your garden, on your little balcony. But you need to do something with it. Drawing, right? Anything.
mark welte: Right. Sounds like the somatic e experiences are very important here.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure, yeah, because our patients, our clients' emotions, feelings get stuck on our soma, right? Your
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: job is to identify where in the soma and do something. And it can be something as simple as taking a shower. I feel the anger here. Okay, so the water is going to really make it disappear. Whatever works for you.
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But do something with it. Don't ignore it. Because it'll
mark welte: Don't ignore it.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: come back.
mark welte: Right. And then how does it have you noticed any influence or effect the the the counter-transference that you experience in a session, then you deal with it later. you tidy it up. But then what about your own intimate relationships in your own regular life? How does that present? That that's what that's what I'm can sometimes concerned about. I feel like
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Right? Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think you need to get quote unquote concern when that lingering, when the feeling lingers for more than 24 hours, right? If I saw this young girl yesterday, today's Wednesday, by the end of today, I still have the feeling it's been too long, right? So I might want to talk to my therapist, right? I want to consult with a colleague, a trusted
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: colleague, somebody that hopefully practices through my same, in my case, it's a Jungian lens. When you feel the heaviness for, to me, 24 hours. When you feel the heaviness for more than 24 hours and you are becoming cranky for no reason or more moody with kids or with a bed, then yeah, you need to do something more than just dealing with it.
mark welte: And we'll Okay. So some of the symbolic things that you do, like I said, drawings or dream analysis or even tarot, ca I'm opening the door. Tell me something about that. Because here
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah.
mark welte: I I say this because here in San Francis at the University of San Francisco, there is a heavy CBT f emphasis, right?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. Psychoanalysis, for sure.
mark welte: And I I'm looking for a counterpo count counter a counterpart to that.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, psychoanalysis is not something that is big in the United States. For better or worse, it is not. We don't have the, we don't even have a course of psychoanalysis, right? In the United States, we tend to be very pragmatic. CBT, DBT, which it works, but sometimes it's not the best, right? Psychoanalysis. It's all about symbols, right? Making the unconscious conscious. And for example, dream, right? When I do dream work, we only work with the psyches, with the unconscious part, right? I know your persona. I know your ego. We present, we have a very strong ego, right? I present as a professor, as a therapist, as somebody's mother, friend, et cetera. That's the ego. But we're not just ego, right? There's something below, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And that below needs to come up. usually comes up through symbols, archetypes, and we can find symbols and archetypes in dreaming, right? We don't dream because we saw an apple, I dream about an apple, you know? That apple is not an apple, that apple is a symbol of yourself. Same
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: thing with the tarot cards, right? If I do a spread and I'm quite attentive and I pay a lot of attention to tell that patient this has nothing to do with divination. It's not that we're going to do a spread and I get the tower you're going to fall. I get the death and you're going to die, right? This is exactly like working with dreams, right? We do a spread, what comes to you, right? And so it's your
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: own material. You are interpreting. I'm just the vessel in a way, but you are looking at your own symbols in terms of dream work or in terms of tarot reading.
mark welte: Okay, so so definitely it's not your own images, associations, or emotional responses. It's totally the clients and yeah. And
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure, yes. Yeah, I'm tempted sometimes to say, my God, you got the tower. I think, no. And in that, or with a dream, if you bring a dream to me, you say, hey, Jessica, I dreamt about falling. I'm very tempted to say, well, falling means, so I take a step back and I put my Jungian lens and I
mark welte: huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: say what Dr. Jung would say, I know nothing about your dream. What do you think it means, right?
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: You know, I don't know, I might, I know about symbols, know about archetypes, but you know this is your dream. That apple is not an apple, that is a part of you.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It's quite fascinating. So we don't pay attention
mark welte: Yes.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: to the unconscious. We say it's just a dream. It's not just a dream.
mark welte: and and and how do you care for yourself when a client's symbolic content touches something personal in you?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course, sometimes my own archetypes get activated, right? In my case, it's the archetype of the bad mother, right? Or sometimes it's the archetype of the healer, right?
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But then again, I need to take a couple of steps away and this is me. My wounded mother has nothing to do with you, right?
mark welte: huh. how do you how how would how would you d guide a a younger therapist or or let's say a newer therapist, perhaps younger
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Hmm?
mark welte: as well, to to becoming more comfortable with counter transference?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. say that again countertransference is not a nuisance. Countertransference doesn't mean that my god there's something wrong with me right and
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: a lot of young therapists see it as like I don't like this patient or I'm feeling this I'm feeling that I shouldn't feel anything. Of course you of course you're going to feel of course you're going to like or don't like right so use countertransference as a moment to breathe and like what is it about this patient, what is it about the way he or she presents or speak or dress that is touching me, right? It's not him, it's something in me. You do that later, right? You don't do it in session, you don't tell that patient, well you know when I see you it feels that, right? You're the therapist. You do your best in those 50 minutes and then you re-examine with notes, with your own drawings, with... but you need to go back. But counter-transference is quite necessary.
mark welte: So I bi because the the counter transference that you typically deal with i correct me if I'm wrong here, is i i i it's personal and symbolic. But let's say someone is working in C B T, D B T in a substance abuse clinic or something.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: To me I'm like I said, I'm I'm still an AMFT and I haven't experienced that. But is
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: my i is that person's counter transference going to be a little bit different because they have a script, whereas your in in Jungian and fr and psychoanalysis, the y your script is much broader and wider, whereas there's kind of like a
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
mark welte: manualized approach to some of these more eth empirically based modalities and
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course you can feel that that kind of transference even when dealing with substance abuse or I don't know using the modality of CVT or DVD or know, brief therapy and a very, you know, concrete example could be, I don't know, if I'm working with somebody who is consuming alcohol and tells me that, you know, whenever I don't consume, I'm so nervous and I'm anxious and then I feel it. That's counter-transference, right? We're not
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: going any deeper than that, right? When that person is telling me, so you know, I stopped drinking for a couple of months and whenever I go by, you know, a liquor store, I feel sweaty and I feel, I don't know, whatever, uneasy, then I feel it. Right? So that's a somatic counter-transference. And so I
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: would say something like, it must be very difficult. Because even as I'm speaking to you, Or as you're speaking to me, I feel the, you know, I feel what you're feeling. feel it in my, what do you feel it? I feel it here. Sure, that's going to transference as well.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It doesn't have to be all that deep. It can be a somatic feeling, right?
mark welte: Let let's say I'm it's six months into a role and I mean I don't even know if it's possible again. What if I'm not
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Let's see.
mark welte: feeling countertransference?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: That's fine.
mark welte: That the so that's okay too. It might would you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, of course. You don't have to. But very unlikely. don't think I buy that. I think it might
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: be so subtle. Because you're always going to have a reaction with another human. It can
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: be a very positive reaction. Sometimes the countertransference is very positive, yet still countertransference. When you really like that patient and you're kind sad and bummed that that patient didn't show up. And you're like, yeah, I'm going to check on him. And then you went, no, I don't really check on every patient, but why do I want to check on him? Why am I
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: so excited to see him or her? Right?
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: That's countertransference as well.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All for worth to examine.
mark welte: Since you've been doing this a while and you've consult you consult with other people, do you have any I'm just wondering if there are any trends or generalizations about who who is more prone to n negative counter transference or or or to suffer from it?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. think therapies who have never been clients themselves. I think when you have failed to deal with your own, using a very Rogerian term, unfinished business, you are more prone to engaging very negative counter-transference and to going into this dark loop.
mark welte: Okay. I I'm sure you've seen that.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: So having an outlet and having had a therapy or hopefully having a therapist really helps.
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Hm. Do you write your own dreams down?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I do try, I do my best, but I do write the ones that I wake up in the morning. And I would tell that to everyone. You don't have to write them every night, but write the ones that when you wake up in the morning, you're like, you know, you remember it so vividly and, or you remember the feeling. You don't have to write absolutely everything, I anger and blue. I don't know. Maybe that's what you wake up with, the color blue and anger. I don't know. And then go back to it. You, If you forget everything about this podcast, the one thing I want you to remember is that we don't dream because we dream. This is your psyche tapping on you. Cara
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Jung said not paying attention to dreams is like receiving letters and never opening them. I
mark welte: Got it.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: want to know what the letters say.
mark welte: Yeah. let's talk about counter transference and blind spots.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: Do can we ha suffer from being clinically blind in s areas because of our counter transference and how does one measure against that? Because you know we're we're we're gonna be trying a lot of new things out,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: my my my peers and all. and we but we want to overcome these hurdles as I guess as wholly and as speedily as possible. Not that speed is necessarily the the virtue
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: here, but you know, so that we're not doing this too far down the road. so t if you could talk a little bit about blind blind spots as a result of counter transference.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I've seen this for the most part, not with clients, but with students or with new therapies in which they say, there's no such a thing as bias. There's no such a thing as, I don't know, being impacted by a patient to the point that, you know, you cannot function. I think being aware of your own bias helps a lot. Now, I would really encourage young therapists to do a little bit of everything because you might not know about your own biases, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: If you all, I don't know, if you just went to Catholic school, boys, that's all you know, right? I
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: would encourage you to work with the younger, with the older, with the homeless, with the rich, with the white, with the black, with Latino, with until you find it. You have to find it. If you don't know your blind spot, how are you going to open your eyes?
mark welte: Right. I I'm sure I'm sure there's a very poetic statement about that somewhere. But that that that was that was that was getting very close there.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Most likely, somebody must have said it much better than me. Sure, yeah, but yeah, understand.
mark welte: Who okay, so let's say l let's turn this conversation to literature for a moment.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: if you I'm not gonna give you a desert island question, but if there were
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Hmm?
mark welte: three books that are l l literature, fiction that you would recommend for a young therapist,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: literature, yeah. literate, I don't know. In terms of literature and fiction, I have no clue. I would recommend for sure the work of Hermann Hesse, a Damien, which it was written right before Sepp and Wolf. Sepp
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: and Wolf to be a little bit dense, but I would start with Damien, Hermann Hesse. If you're... Try, I mean, think of the concept of mindfulness, which we use a lot in therapy,
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: yeah, and hopefully we do, comes from Buddhism, right? Siddhartha, German-hese, right? For sure, yes, yes.
mark welte: And Hesse was pretty much a Buddhist, wasn't he? Yeah. I mean I I I remember in high school reading Damien and then we read Narcissus and Goldmund. Because that's the
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: nurses and gold moon yes yes
mark welte: the light and the well that was that was very much the yin yang, the light, the dark, the
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All right, relatively easy to read in comparison with Nietzsche, right? start there. I'm sure there's so many. But again, I'm quite biased. You know, I
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: tend to stay with He Se Jung, of course, Thomas Mann. there's a beautiful,
mark welte: Thomas Mann. Have you read Robert Davies?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: that's Perfume, right? The Perfume, which they did a very bad movie. Yeah, the Perfume. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah,
mark welte: perfume, yes. Patrick Suskins. Yes.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: the book is fascinating. Yeah, that's Perfume.
mark welte: The book is fascinating, it is. And
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Which I wonder if now, if this was to happen now, that young boy would be diagnosed with personality disorder or I don't know, something DSM-5-ish. But this was written a gazillion years ago. It's beautiful book. By the way,
mark welte: huh. Have you read
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Thomas Mann was also in the circle, right? Hess, Eman, Jung,
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Freud.
mark welte: And and that was all in Vienna.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All in Vienna, correct.
mark welte: Yeah. Have you read Robertson Davies?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: No, no, no, no, who's the writer? Who's the author?
mark welte: He's he's a can he well he's he's dead now, but he's Canadian and he he's set some of his books in the Jungian Institute in Zurich.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And see you
mark welte: Yeah, he's very good. so how about three nonfiction books or
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: man, if you're really, if you're quite curious about psychoanalysis, the basic writings of Jung.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And again, I might be recommending all Jung books. this one is quite fascinating. Jung and Gese by Miguel Serrano. This is the Chilean author I was telling you about.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I don't know, this is a very loaded question because, and
mark welte: Ha ha ha.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: of course because I do a lot of tarot reading and I do a lot of dream work analysis. This is my dictionary, a dictionary of symbols. If you're
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: really interested in learning about archetypes, symbology, and if you have a fascination for dreams. It's a beautiful book. And I would hope that everybody starts listening to their dreams. The unconscious side.
mark welte: That's great. I I I I d totally totally agree. it's it's the the the program, while a great program was very practical and I I wish there was we spent a little bit more time in some of our analytic I tweeted.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And we need the practicality, but take a couple of seminars here and there, a couple of classes, courses in terms
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: of symbols, in terms of archetypes, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And see what comes to you. It might not be your thing, right? But try to find that, try to find a lens from which you operate. I do CBT, I do DBT, I do many things, but I tend to detour to psychoanalysis through a Jungian lens. So I think that's really helpful if you have, you know, a concrete base.
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: that you can come back. But of course you need to have a little bit of everything in your pocket tool.
mark welte: Right. Okay. So part of this conversation definitely comes under one of the strong messages of USF's program also is self-care is really important.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: And I I I'm thinking that might be a future podcast unto its own. Because
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, self-care, yeah.
mark welte: people r people need to take care of themselves. And that doesn't mean just pampering, it means really take care of themselves.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, anything without the guilt, right? I find that
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I work again, you know, in San Mateo with all these young techies at work, I don't know, 80 hours a week, and they feel pretty bad when they're not working. They feel very guilty and very ashamed because they're doing something else, right? So practicing self-care plus putting the shame away, the guilt away. It's okay to take a 30-minute nap. It's okay to read a book for a little bit, whatever works. to soothe
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Okay, well, any closing remarks?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Let's try to bring the unconscious into a conscious side. Again, we're not all ego. And I know it does sound very subjective, but part of us is what we see, right? There is more and this more comes in the forms of dreams. It comes in the form of symbols. It comes in the form of Freudian slips. So pay attention to that. I didn't dream about an apple because I ate an apple yesterday.
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I ate many things, yet my psyche decided to focus on that apple. What is that apple for me? What does it
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: look like, et cetera? Pay attention to your dreams. You want to open the letters that you have been receiving from your psyches.
mark welte: Okay, so what is the apple, Jessica? No.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: You tell me what is an apple to you? Green or red? Right?
mark welte: thank you. Thank you very much for your time. This has been wonderful. I I've really had a great time.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: you are very welcome. Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure.
mark welte: And if you could just stay on for a moment after this.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure.
mark welte: Thank you all. This has been another episode of Life Under Supervision. I'm Mark Weltie. We'll see you next time.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: you
mark welte: an LMFT in private practice who also teaches as an adjunct professor at USF, University of San Francisco, and has worked in public mental health for years. She was born and raised in Chile, came to the States as a young adult, and studied Latin American literature and German in school, and now runs her own practice in San Mateo. In her practice, she also employs a variety of psychodynamic and symbolic tools like drawing, dream analysis, and tarot, which will be interesting to talk about. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Thank you, thank you, James.
mark welte: So the listener could get a little bit to know something about you. could you please ble could you please briefly describe your path to working in mental health and what your principal modalities might be and how your practice works with clients, how you like to work with clients.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. So for the most part, I work through a Jungian umbrella. quite fascinated with psychoanalysis, but from psychoanalysis I have taken, because there's so many modalities, right? In psychoanalysis, the Freudian school, Jungian, which are the most common kind. I tend to work from a Jungian perspective. And so I incorporate symbolism, right? images and most of the work I do has to do with bringing the unconscious into consciousness if that's kind of understood which we can talk about in a little bit.
mark welte: Sure. And now w w would you w how did you ha you because you studied languages and literature, how did you take a a detour and get into mental health?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, I must have been nine or ten in Santiago, Chile. And for some interesting reason I found, which now I understand must have been the interpretation of dreams, of Freud. I don't know how I got home. It was in German, we speak Spanish in Chile. And I look at the drawings and I thought they were fascinating, a little bit forbidden, fascinating, a lot of symbols. And years went by, I came to the United States, I'm graduating in Latin American Literature. And while studying Latin American Literature, I came up with the work of German Hesse and another Chilean author that were quite friends, were quite close, and they also were acquaintances of Jung. And so the same images I had seen, I don't know, 30 years ago reappeared. And then I realized, huh. This is not just drawing, this has to do with the unconscious, with raw material. And so although my first love was Latin American literature, I realized that the normal or the unique continuation for me would be psychology through a Jungian lens.
mark welte: Super. Your journey w made a quick detour that you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm.
mark welte: know mine much later in life is is is has us taken a similar path, being influenced by literature and art as well.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, yeah.
mark welte: you said Hermann Hesse, right?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Correct, Hermann Hesse, which was part of the series, I didn't know that, with the Chilean author, last name Serrano, I don't remember the first name, but it was Hesse Serrano. And by the way, Hesse was a patient of Jung for perhaps a year or two, which I didn't know. so you can see, so Stephen Wolf, one of the best sellers of Hesse, is
mark welte: Steppenwolf, right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: correct, is quite... inspired in his analysis with Jung. And so this is why, as I fell in love with Hesse in high school, at the same time I fell in love with Jung many years later, now I understand why, because they were, you know, related in a way, right? It was an analysis and allysent, yeah.
mark welte: Sure, sure. Now I gave my very neophyte i interpretation or definition of the word counter transference. I I would love for you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, I'm curious, tell me.
mark welte: to please clarify what does it mean to you,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Ha ha!
mark welte: how do you define it and how does it show up and you know, y you have the run. There there's no hurry here. I I really want to hear how it how it shows up in your practice.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Right. So I might be quite biased here, aren't we all? Because my concept of countertransference is very Jungian. If we go before Jung, countertransference was a nuisance. Freud saw it as neurosis, right? Neurosis of the analyst and you want to get rid of it, right? It's a nuisance in therapy. Whereas for Jung, and I have discovered for me as well, practicing all these years, It's quite necessary. You don't want to get rid of it. You want to have counter-transferencing session because you said, hmm, you asked me how do I define it? So it's the encounter of two unconsciousness, yours as the patient, mine as the analyst, right? Two unconsciousness meeting and reflecting on the other, learning from the other, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: So I think it's a... very necessary tool that we're not to avoid, but to become conscious and integrate.
mark welte: Okay. c c can you can you give us a pr a a gr a realistic or let's say a a practical moment when you noticed a counter
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure.
mark welte: transference reaction and w how what did you d decide to do with it and
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. And it can be quite raw, right? I think this is why most therapies, especially new therapies, tend to shy away because it can be beyond uncomfortable. Little disclosure, I have a 21-year-old daughter, very difficult relationship with her since birth, very difficult. And so whenever I see teenage girls, that kind of resemble her, know, that they kind of like look like her or young women as her at 2021. Of course, my counter-transference shows up, right? And the archetypes, remember, through Jungian lens archetypes are the elements or the blueprint we have incorporated into our unconsciousness. So I look at this 21-year-old and I'm like, no, I don't like her, or I really want to mother her. I really
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: feel bad for her mom. this is not her, this is me, right? So to this day I still struggle or I have to have a very watchful eye on my own, on myself, when I see patients that a. resemble my daughter or what she was like as a young child. Because again sometimes my loyalty goes 100 % with them or against them but that has nothing to do with the patient, that's me. Does it make sense?
mark welte: I it makes sense, but I also have to say that it sounds a little bit t possibly exhausting.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It is because you need to keep yourself in check all the time. It's not
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: fair for the 20 year old that I might not like her, right? Or I might want to overmother her because it has nothing to with her business. It's me. So it's exhausting
mark welte: huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: for me. I need to keep myself in check for sure.
mark welte: So then when the session's over and you just have your regular life, and you know, I'm assuming you've been doing this for ten years or so,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: how does tr countertransference then in influence the way you think, feel, and you know, move, navigate through your own life? Do have have your impressions of twenty two-year-old females has that grown? Or what can w what can a new therapist expect to Learn from counter transference.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, yeah. Yeah. So before that, I would say that what helps me and hopefully what would help new therapies are, hmm, it could be notes, right? Like side notes, right? So
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: after you see this patient, you take a couple of minutes or hopefully more than a couple of minutes, what came to me, right? Annoying, right? I'm making it up, right? I don't like her too much, right? So. I take a couple of minutes after session, I write what I need to write, and I do a little bit of Hagerstalt experiment. Okay, now counter-transference, I'm going to put you on the shelf, right? Because I can't deal with you right now, we'll deal later, right? Because
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I have more patients or I have, right? So it's honoring that counter-transference, honoring that archetype of the bad daughter, right? Or the bad mother, and getting back to it later. You don't want the archetype or the counter-transference to possess you, right? You want to integrate it, so you give it space.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I feel ashamed right now, I feel anger, I feel agitated because of this patient. So you talk to the counter-transference. We'll deal with this later, okay? Not right now.
mark welte: And and so how do you pick it up later? How do you deal with it later? Or because I could imagine some young associates having you know, a a pretty whopping large caseload and and actually never readdressing it because they're seemingly overwhelmed or they are overwhelmed.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah.
mark welte: and w are are they are they hurting themselves? Are they d causing themselves some injury or
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: for sure, maybe not immediate, it's not... the question is not if they're hurting themselves, but when that hurt is going to show up, right? In session
mark welte: Sure.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: or with their family. Yeah, no, that's a ticking bomb, right? When you're like, no, I'm fine. No, another 20 year old, I can deal with it. But if I haven't integrated that counter-transference or that archetype into my consciousness, it'll come back, right? So you need to get back to it.
mark welte: So you're feeding the dark you're you're feeding the shadow. You c you're kind of feeding it the shadow.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Correct. Yeah. Correct. And you don't want the show to possess you, right? You want to integrate it.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Because there's two extremes, right? You either get shadow possessed or counter transfer and possessed,
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: or you're like, no, I'm fine. It doesn't matter. It's Neither nor. You need to be here, integrated.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And that's difficult. The extremes are easy.
mark welte: Now I I don't I don't want to appear woo-woo here, but it it is is the exercise of love a an antidote to this or or like a vitamin to help one deal with the counter transference later on? I mean because like I said, you might never you might not take it off the shelf for a while and then say Okay, because it's it i it sounds like a great personal eff effort.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course. Yeah, this is why again going to therapy is so difficult, right? Because it takes work and effort, right? It's not any
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: different with ourselves. So, you know, when I see this 20 year old girl and I end up with this feeling of like, I don't know, heaviness, but then I need to continue going with the next patient. At some point I need to address it, right? And I can address it as, okay, so I feel the heaviness here. I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to run. I feel the heaviness here. I'm going to take a long shower and wash it off.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But you need to deal with it in some way. Exercising,
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: reading, grounding yourself on your garden, on your little balcony. But you need to do something with it. Drawing, right? Anything.
mark welte: Right. Sounds like the somatic e experiences are very important here.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure, yeah, because our patients, our clients' emotions, feelings get stuck on our soma, right? Your
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: job is to identify where in the soma and do something. And it can be something as simple as taking a shower. I feel the anger here. Okay, so the water is going to really make it disappear. Whatever works for you.
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But do something with it. Don't ignore it. Because it'll
mark welte: Don't ignore it.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: come back.
mark welte: Right. And then how does it have you noticed any influence or effect the the the counter-transference that you experience in a session, then you deal with it later. you tidy it up. But then what about your own intimate relationships in your own regular life? How does that present? That that's what that's what I'm can sometimes concerned about. I feel like
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Right? Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think you need to get quote unquote concern when that lingering, when the feeling lingers for more than 24 hours, right? If I saw this young girl yesterday, today's Wednesday, by the end of today, I still have the feeling it's been too long, right? So I might want to talk to my therapist, right? I want to consult with a colleague, a trusted
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: colleague, somebody that hopefully practices through my same, in my case, it's a Jungian lens. When you feel the heaviness for, to me, 24 hours. When you feel the heaviness for more than 24 hours and you are becoming cranky for no reason or more moody with kids or with a bed, then yeah, you need to do something more than just dealing with it.
mark welte: And we'll Okay. So some of the symbolic things that you do, like I said, drawings or dream analysis or even tarot, ca I'm opening the door. Tell me something about that. Because here
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah.
mark welte: I I say this because here in San Francis at the University of San Francisco, there is a heavy CBT f emphasis, right?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. Psychoanalysis, for sure.
mark welte: And I I'm looking for a counterpo count counter a counterpart to that.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, psychoanalysis is not something that is big in the United States. For better or worse, it is not. We don't have the, we don't even have a course of psychoanalysis, right? In the United States, we tend to be very pragmatic. CBT, DBT, which it works, but sometimes it's not the best, right? Psychoanalysis. It's all about symbols, right? Making the unconscious conscious. And for example, dream, right? When I do dream work, we only work with the psyches, with the unconscious part, right? I know your persona. I know your ego. We present, we have a very strong ego, right? I present as a professor, as a therapist, as somebody's mother, friend, et cetera. That's the ego. But we're not just ego, right? There's something below, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And that below needs to come up. usually comes up through symbols, archetypes, and we can find symbols and archetypes in dreaming, right? We don't dream because we saw an apple, I dream about an apple, you know? That apple is not an apple, that apple is a symbol of yourself. Same
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: thing with the tarot cards, right? If I do a spread and I'm quite attentive and I pay a lot of attention to tell that patient this has nothing to do with divination. It's not that we're going to do a spread and I get the tower you're going to fall. I get the death and you're going to die, right? This is exactly like working with dreams, right? We do a spread, what comes to you, right? And so it's your
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: own material. You are interpreting. I'm just the vessel in a way, but you are looking at your own symbols in terms of dream work or in terms of tarot reading.
mark welte: Okay, so so definitely it's not your own images, associations, or emotional responses. It's totally the clients and yeah. And
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure, yes. Yeah, I'm tempted sometimes to say, my God, you got the tower. I think, no. And in that, or with a dream, if you bring a dream to me, you say, hey, Jessica, I dreamt about falling. I'm very tempted to say, well, falling means, so I take a step back and I put my Jungian lens and I
mark welte: huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: say what Dr. Jung would say, I know nothing about your dream. What do you think it means, right?
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: You know, I don't know, I might, I know about symbols, know about archetypes, but you know this is your dream. That apple is not an apple, that is a part of you.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It's quite fascinating. So we don't pay attention
mark welte: Yes.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: to the unconscious. We say it's just a dream. It's not just a dream.
mark welte: and and and how do you care for yourself when a client's symbolic content touches something personal in you?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course, sometimes my own archetypes get activated, right? In my case, it's the archetype of the bad mother, right? Or sometimes it's the archetype of the healer, right?
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: But then again, I need to take a couple of steps away and this is me. My wounded mother has nothing to do with you, right?
mark welte: huh. how do you how how would how would you d guide a a younger therapist or or let's say a newer therapist, perhaps younger
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Hmm?
mark welte: as well, to to becoming more comfortable with counter transference?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. say that again countertransference is not a nuisance. Countertransference doesn't mean that my god there's something wrong with me right and
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: a lot of young therapists see it as like I don't like this patient or I'm feeling this I'm feeling that I shouldn't feel anything. Of course you of course you're going to feel of course you're going to like or don't like right so use countertransference as a moment to breathe and like what is it about this patient, what is it about the way he or she presents or speak or dress that is touching me, right? It's not him, it's something in me. You do that later, right? You don't do it in session, you don't tell that patient, well you know when I see you it feels that, right? You're the therapist. You do your best in those 50 minutes and then you re-examine with notes, with your own drawings, with... but you need to go back. But counter-transference is quite necessary.
mark welte: So I bi because the the counter transference that you typically deal with i correct me if I'm wrong here, is i i i it's personal and symbolic. But let's say someone is working in C B T, D B T in a substance abuse clinic or something.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: To me I'm like I said, I'm I'm still an AMFT and I haven't experienced that. But is
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: my i is that person's counter transference going to be a little bit different because they have a script, whereas your in in Jungian and fr and psychoanalysis, the y your script is much broader and wider, whereas there's kind of like a
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
mark welte: manualized approach to some of these more eth empirically based modalities and
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, of course you can feel that that kind of transference even when dealing with substance abuse or I don't know using the modality of CVT or DVD or know, brief therapy and a very, you know, concrete example could be, I don't know, if I'm working with somebody who is consuming alcohol and tells me that, you know, whenever I don't consume, I'm so nervous and I'm anxious and then I feel it. That's counter-transference, right? We're not
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: going any deeper than that, right? When that person is telling me, so you know, I stopped drinking for a couple of months and whenever I go by, you know, a liquor store, I feel sweaty and I feel, I don't know, whatever, uneasy, then I feel it. Right? So that's a somatic counter-transference. And so I
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: would say something like, it must be very difficult. Because even as I'm speaking to you, Or as you're speaking to me, I feel the, you know, I feel what you're feeling. feel it in my, what do you feel it? I feel it here. Sure, that's going to transference as well.
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: It doesn't have to be all that deep. It can be a somatic feeling, right?
mark welte: Let let's say I'm it's six months into a role and I mean I don't even know if it's possible again. What if I'm not
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Let's see.
mark welte: feeling countertransference?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: That's fine.
mark welte: That the so that's okay too. It might would you
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure, of course. You don't have to. But very unlikely. don't think I buy that. I think it might
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: be so subtle. Because you're always going to have a reaction with another human. It can
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: be a very positive reaction. Sometimes the countertransference is very positive, yet still countertransference. When you really like that patient and you're kind sad and bummed that that patient didn't show up. And you're like, yeah, I'm going to check on him. And then you went, no, I don't really check on every patient, but why do I want to check on him? Why am I
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: so excited to see him or her? Right?
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: That's countertransference as well.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All for worth to examine.
mark welte: Since you've been doing this a while and you've consult you consult with other people, do you have any I'm just wondering if there are any trends or generalizations about who who is more prone to n negative counter transference or or or to suffer from it?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Sure. think therapies who have never been clients themselves. I think when you have failed to deal with your own, using a very Rogerian term, unfinished business, you are more prone to engaging very negative counter-transference and to going into this dark loop.
mark welte: Okay. I I'm sure you've seen that.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: So having an outlet and having had a therapy or hopefully having a therapist really helps.
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Hm. Do you write your own dreams down?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I do try, I do my best, but I do write the ones that I wake up in the morning. And I would tell that to everyone. You don't have to write them every night, but write the ones that when you wake up in the morning, you're like, you know, you remember it so vividly and, or you remember the feeling. You don't have to write absolutely everything, I anger and blue. I don't know. Maybe that's what you wake up with, the color blue and anger. I don't know. And then go back to it. You, If you forget everything about this podcast, the one thing I want you to remember is that we don't dream because we dream. This is your psyche tapping on you. Cara
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Jung said not paying attention to dreams is like receiving letters and never opening them. I
mark welte: Got it.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: want to know what the letters say.
mark welte: Yeah. let's talk about counter transference and blind spots.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: Do can we ha suffer from being clinically blind in s areas because of our counter transference and how does one measure against that? Because you know we're we're we're gonna be trying a lot of new things out,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: my my my peers and all. and we but we want to overcome these hurdles as I guess as wholly and as speedily as possible. Not that speed is necessarily the the virtue
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: here, but you know, so that we're not doing this too far down the road. so t if you could talk a little bit about blind blind spots as a result of counter transference.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I've seen this for the most part, not with clients, but with students or with new therapies in which they say, there's no such a thing as bias. There's no such a thing as, I don't know, being impacted by a patient to the point that, you know, you cannot function. I think being aware of your own bias helps a lot. Now, I would really encourage young therapists to do a little bit of everything because you might not know about your own biases, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: If you all, I don't know, if you just went to Catholic school, boys, that's all you know, right? I
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: would encourage you to work with the younger, with the older, with the homeless, with the rich, with the white, with the black, with Latino, with until you find it. You have to find it. If you don't know your blind spot, how are you going to open your eyes?
mark welte: Right. I I'm sure I'm sure there's a very poetic statement about that somewhere. But that that that was that was that was getting very close there.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Most likely, somebody must have said it much better than me. Sure, yeah, but yeah, understand.
mark welte: Who okay, so let's say l let's turn this conversation to literature for a moment.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: if you I'm not gonna give you a desert island question, but if there were
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Hmm?
mark welte: three books that are l l literature, fiction that you would recommend for a young therapist,
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: literature, yeah. literate, I don't know. In terms of literature and fiction, I have no clue. I would recommend for sure the work of Hermann Hesse, a Damien, which it was written right before Sepp and Wolf. Sepp
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: and Wolf to be a little bit dense, but I would start with Damien, Hermann Hesse. If you're... Try, I mean, think of the concept of mindfulness, which we use a lot in therapy,
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: yeah, and hopefully we do, comes from Buddhism, right? Siddhartha, German-hese, right? For sure, yes, yes.
mark welte: And Hesse was pretty much a Buddhist, wasn't he? Yeah. I mean I I I remember in high school reading Damien and then we read Narcissus and Goldmund. Because that's the
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: nurses and gold moon yes yes
mark welte: the light and the well that was that was very much the yin yang, the light, the dark, the
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All right, relatively easy to read in comparison with Nietzsche, right? start there. I'm sure there's so many. But again, I'm quite biased. You know, I
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: tend to stay with He Se Jung, of course, Thomas Mann. there's a beautiful,
mark welte: Thomas Mann. Have you read Robert Davies?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: that's Perfume, right? The Perfume, which they did a very bad movie. Yeah, the Perfume. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah,
mark welte: perfume, yes. Patrick Suskins. Yes.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: the book is fascinating. Yeah, that's Perfume.
mark welte: The book is fascinating, it is. And
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Which I wonder if now, if this was to happen now, that young boy would be diagnosed with personality disorder or I don't know, something DSM-5-ish. But this was written a gazillion years ago. It's beautiful book. By the way,
mark welte: huh. Have you read
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Thomas Mann was also in the circle, right? Hess, Eman, Jung,
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Freud.
mark welte: And and that was all in Vienna.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: All in Vienna, correct.
mark welte: Yeah. Have you read Robertson Davies?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: No, no, no, no, who's the writer? Who's the author?
mark welte: He's he's a can he well he's he's dead now, but he's Canadian and he he's set some of his books in the Jungian Institute in Zurich.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And see you
mark welte: Yeah, he's very good. so how about three nonfiction books or
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: man, if you're really, if you're quite curious about psychoanalysis, the basic writings of Jung.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And again, I might be recommending all Jung books. this one is quite fascinating. Jung and Gese by Miguel Serrano. This is the Chilean author I was telling you about.
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I don't know, this is a very loaded question because, and
mark welte: Ha ha ha.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: of course because I do a lot of tarot reading and I do a lot of dream work analysis. This is my dictionary, a dictionary of symbols. If you're
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: really interested in learning about archetypes, symbology, and if you have a fascination for dreams. It's a beautiful book. And I would hope that everybody starts listening to their dreams. The unconscious side.
mark welte: That's great. I I I I d totally totally agree. it's it's the the the program, while a great program was very practical and I I wish there was we spent a little bit more time in some of our analytic I tweeted.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And we need the practicality, but take a couple of seminars here and there, a couple of classes, courses in terms
mark welte: Okay.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: of symbols, in terms of archetypes, right?
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: And see what comes to you. It might not be your thing, right? But try to find that, try to find a lens from which you operate. I do CBT, I do DBT, I do many things, but I tend to detour to psychoanalysis through a Jungian lens. So I think that's really helpful if you have, you know, a concrete base.
mark welte: Uh-huh.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: that you can come back. But of course you need to have a little bit of everything in your pocket tool.
mark welte: Right. Okay. So part of this conversation definitely comes under one of the strong messages of USF's program also is self-care is really important.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
mark welte: And I I I'm thinking that might be a future podcast unto its own. Because
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, self-care, yeah.
mark welte: people r people need to take care of themselves. And that doesn't mean just pampering, it means really take care of themselves.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Yeah, anything without the guilt, right? I find that
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I work again, you know, in San Mateo with all these young techies at work, I don't know, 80 hours a week, and they feel pretty bad when they're not working. They feel very guilty and very ashamed because they're doing something else, right? So practicing self-care plus putting the shame away, the guilt away. It's okay to take a 30-minute nap. It's okay to read a book for a little bit, whatever works. to soothe
mark welte: Mm-hmm. Okay, well, any closing remarks?
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: Let's try to bring the unconscious into a conscious side. Again, we're not all ego. And I know it does sound very subjective, but part of us is what we see, right? There is more and this more comes in the forms of dreams. It comes in the form of symbols. It comes in the form of Freudian slips. So pay attention to that. I didn't dream about an apple because I ate an apple yesterday.
mark welte: Right.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: I ate many things, yet my psyche decided to focus on that apple. What is that apple for me? What does it
mark welte: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: look like, et cetera? Pay attention to your dreams. You want to open the letters that you have been receiving from your psyches.
mark welte: Okay, so what is the apple, Jessica? No.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: You tell me what is an apple to you? Green or red? Right?
mark welte: thank you. Thank you very much for your time. This has been wonderful. I I've really had a great time.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: you are very welcome. Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure.
mark welte: And if you could just stay on for a moment after this.
Jessica Urzua, MA, LMFT: For sure.
mark welte: Thank you all. This has been another episode of Life Under Supervision. I'm Mark Weltie. We'll see you next time.
